Japan's SHAME CULTURE

[ricecake]

I've recently learned of it,Japan is based on SHAME CULTURE.

What does it REALLY MEAN ?

[nice gaijin]

What have you heard?

[Mike Cash]

I've recently learned of it,Japan is based on SHAME CULTURE.
What does it REALLY MEAN ?

The old thing about Japan being a culture operating on shame and the West being culture(s) that operate on guilt?

It assumes that Japanese have no internal moral compass and feel free to do anything normally prohibited by society.....so long as they don't get caught. (Shame only comes from having one's ill deeds known by others).

[Maciamo]

Mike has explained it very eloquently. I think that the internal moral compass of Westerners originated from the Judeo-Christian idea that god knows everything and judges your every thought and deed.

It's interesting that even Atheist like me have kept a strong internal moral compass without believing in god or divine judgement at all. On the other hand, shame doesn't work so well on me. I would prefer knowing that my actions are morally justified even when a majority of people don't approve them, than follow conventions to avoid shame when I feel it is wrong.

Personally, I have had a hard time coping with this shame culture in Japan. It is one of the biggest cultural difference between Japan and Western countries, IMO. It's hard to trust people when you know that it is more important for them not to be caught than not to feel guilt.

Lexico started an interesting topic concerning this difference between shame-driven vs guilt-driven cultures (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15545).

I think that the importance attached to 'apologising vs justification' in seeking to be forgiven for a misdeed is closely related to this 'shame vs guilt'. My observation have led me to believe that shame-driven cultures put more importance into apologising (to clear the shame), whilst guilt-driven cultures need an good explanation to pardon the morally unaceptable act.

That is also why many Japanese people are not satisfied by an excuse or justification, but want a sincere apology, as it is the only way to redeem shame or embarassment.

People with a very strong moral sense (like me) hardly care about an apology because it does not justify doing something which one knew was wrong. Explaining what led the person to misbehave that way (i.e. mitigating circumstances) can help to forgive more than an apology, because we never know for sure that the apology is sincere (some people are very good comedians) and it's too easy to misbehave when you know that an apology will clear everything.

The legal system is Western (=guilt-driven) countries prioritise understanding what happens (how), and why, as well as mitigating circumstances, and the final judgement takes all these explanations into account. In Japan, we often see CEO's or politicians bowing and apologising profusely when they are caught in some scandals, but they don't really try justify themselves. The apology is everything, and a remorseful defendant will usually fare better in Japanese court than one explaining why they should not be considered guilty based on their state of mind, beliefs, emotions, or whatever.

=> See also this thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13617)

[leonmarino]

This is interesting. I am one of those people who refuses to apologize, because to me it is an easy and effortless way of trying to appease the other party. I rather explain that I realize what I have done and that I realize that I have been wrong to do so. My Dutch friends accept it and some even explicitly respect that I think and behave this way.

The funny thing is though that I have been raised so by my Dutch father, but also by my Japanese mother; she always used to say ”ゴメンで済むなら警察はいらん！” (If everything settles by just saying sorry, we wouldn't need a police force would we!?). But I can imagine she is an odd one out in Japanese society.. Now I come to think of it, she might have meant in an other way: an apology has to be backed up by an action. Ah well, mothers ey?

Anyways, I recently had a bit of an argument with a Japanese person, and at one time I realized I was wrong. I explained that I did realize I was at fault, but that wasn't enough; she almost cried when I refused to say the words "I'm sorry", because to be words are just combination of syllables. To this day, I still haven't said sorry because I think that I can justify my beliefs.

On another note, it sometimes irritates me that Japanese people say "sorry" to almost everything. "Sorry I called you while you were so busy", "sorry for making you help me" and so on.. I believe there are also differences on a personal level, but I think I am not too generalizing when I say that the Japanese people apologize a lot, and in my "western view"-mode, too much. I'd rather say thanks for someone's effort and consideration; saying sorry implies that the other person (who for example helped me with something) didn't really want to help me, but did it out of pity rather than friendliness.

I have to stress that I am not saying that the Japanese people should change this way of communicating; it works perfectly for their culture and I should be the one adapting when I am visiting Japan. It is merely an observation.

[JimmySeal]

I often feel peeved at the way Japanese people use words of courtesy so often that one has to wonder whether there's any feeling behind them at all.

For example, my school has students enter the staff room through a separate, hard to reach door (they come and go from staff room quite often), and on the door is a sign reminding them to say "shitsurei shimasu" when they enter and "shitsurei shimashita" when they leave. Now they force the kids to say "I'm being rude" when they enter a room they have to enter, and "I was rude" when they leave, but if they're forced to say it against their will, who honestly believes there's any truth behind those words? They just become an empty phrase and when they actually have something to apologize for, there's not going to be any remorse, just words.

That's how it seems to me anyway.

[Elizabeth]

I often feel peeved at the way Japanese people use words of courtesy so often that one has to wonder whether there's any feeling behind them at all.
For example, my school has students enter the staff room through a separate, hard to reach door (they come and go from staff room quite often), and on the door is a sign reminding them to say "shitsurei shimasu" when they enter and "shitsurei shimashita" when they leave. Now they force the kids to say "I'm being rude" when they enter a room they have to enter, and "I was rude" when they leave, but if they're forced to say it against their will, who honestly believes there's any truth behind those words? They just become an empty phrase and when they actually have something to apologize for, there's not going to be any remorse, just words.
That's how it seems to me anyway.
"Shitsurei shimasu" is just a well-bred way of saying 'excuse me' or 'pardon me.' It's no different really than reminding English kids to say please or thank you -- we all know these manners and gestures are compounded a thousand times in Japanese life, but the idea is the same. Certainly it isn't expected you will have genuine remorse behind a phrase like that.

[Elizabeth]

Anyways, I recently had a bit of an argument with a Japanese person, and at one time I realized I was wrong. I explained that I did realize I was at fault, but that wasn't enough; she almost cried when I refused to say the words "I'm sorry", because to be words are just combination of syllables. To this day, I still haven't said sorry because I think that I can justify my beliefs.
I make a point of saying I'm sorry (rather lightly) and then explaining my reasoning. In which case the initial words are probably completely overlooked.
:p

I'd rather say thanks for someone's effort and consideration; saying sorry implies that the other person (who for example helped me with something) didn't really want to help me, but did it out of pity rather than friendliness.
I have to stress that I am not saying that the Japanese people should change this way of communicating; it works perfectly for their culture and I should be the one adapting when I am visiting Japan. It is merely an observation.
I say thank you as well of course, but it depends....if I feel that I had forced anyone into an uncomfortable situation I would apologize for that. I don't believe gomen or sumimasen is enough, especially with friends, but at least in my lexicon and way of thinking it's pragmatic and a perfectly appropriate strategy to begin relating to the people on their own level.

[caster51]

man can not live alone.
that is the biggest preamble
To whom do you declare what you really want to do?
god, friends or parents....?
if you declare it to God, what posiblility is there?
it means you never declare it to anyone
If you can not do what you want ,you feel it shame againt god?
how about "to declare to many friends"?
we might do our best more because we do not want to be seemed shame by them.
which is better?:relief:
every relation of friends, parents, society and nation, Japanese feel the reletions in them.
In the crime, it comes to trouble the group , relation and environment ....
of corse there is a bad relations, too.....
shame = guilt againt relations so on .....
I think it is not for god
do you worry about man's eyes more than God's Eye?
like honest,sincere.....
what is man's porpose? I do not mean Goal.
every purpose have the relations with man.

[leonmarino]

I say thank you as well of course, but it depends....if I feel that I had forced anyone into an uncomfortable situation I would apologize for that. I don't believe gomen or sumimasen is enough, especially with friends, but at least in my lexicon and way of thinking it's pragmatic and a perfectly appropriate strategy to begin relating to the people on their own level.
I completely agree with you: it depends on the situation. It is not like I never consider the other party's situation and just express self-centered gratitude. When it is clear to me I forced someone into a situation I express that I wished it could have gone otherwise; I do say sorry sometimes.

Anyways, the website of Josh is not only stupid in the sense that it tries to breed hatred against foreigners in Japan, while he is a foreigner himself and makes "good use (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24364)" of it, it is also advocates a degrading view on women (http://www.ghettocitiesclothing.com/). I wonder what he is doing on forum full of well-intended people like this one.

[Elizabeth]

The funny thing is though that I have been raised so by my Dutch father, but also by my Japanese mother; she always used to say ”ゴメンで済むなら警察はいらん！” (If everything settles by just saying sorry, we wouldn't need a police force would we!?). But I can imagine she is an odd one out in Japanese society.. Now I come to think of it, she might have meant in an other way: an apology has to be backed up by an action. Ah well, mothers ey?
This is a set phrase that has been explained to me as implying if people only apologized more (or at least those who really needed to do so were that considerate), then police wouldn't be necessary. :-) When you break your neighbors toy, say I'm sorry and they won't pull out a gun on you. :okashii:
Sorry if this bursts any childhood fantasies....:sorry: :gomen:

[Mike Cash]

This is a set phrase that has been explained to me as implying if people only apologized more (or at least those who really needed to do so were that considerate), then police wouldn't be necessary. :-) When you break your neighbors toy, say I'm sorry and they won't pull out a gun on you. :okashii:
Sorry if this bursts any childhood fantasies....:sorry: :gomen:

I think you have arrived at a mistaken understanding of the phrase.

The phrase means that there are things that can't be glossed over by apologies and require something more serious in order to be resolved.

[Elizabeth]

I think you have arrived at a mistaken understanding of the phrase.
The phrase means that there are things that can't be glossed over by apologies and require something more serious in order to be resolved.
OK, all I meant to say was that I'm sure that was what I heard....perhaps he was being overly simplistic without a comprehensive reference on it either ? :relief:

[Glenn]

I took it as meaning "if you apologize they're'll be no need for the police," i.e., just apologize and all will be right with the world.

[ArmandV]

OK, all I meant to say was that I'm sure that was what I heard....perhaps he was being overly simplistic without a comprehensive reference on it either ? :relief:

Sounds to me that the meaning was that "I'm sorry" or "I apologize, I was wrong" would only be sufficient if a "pound of flesh" is also provided. Or, maybe reparations of some kind?

[Elizabeth]

Sounds to me that the meaning was that "I'm sorry" or "I apologize, I was wrong" would only be sufficient if a "pound of flesh" is also provided. Or, maybe reparations of some kind?
I don't think it's any kind of veiled threat to call the cops out on someone. I can't imagine the Japanese having a phrase with those connotations or them referring to an apology as a pound of flesh.

The literal translation : _If_ it is solved with an apology, there is no need for the external force (a society with). No 'just' or 'only' an apology. I can't see how it could be understood any other way, unless there is some supra meaning I'm missing here. :blush:

[Glenn]

Haha, whoops. I just completely missed that verb in there before the なら. Yeah... :relief: Funny how I saw it, noted it, understood the meaning, and then forgot about it when I put it into English. :?

[ArmandV]

I don't think it's any kind of veiled threat to call the cops out on someone. I can't imagine the Japanese having a phrase with those connotations or them referring to an apology as a pound of flesh.
The literal translation : _If_ it is solved with an apology, there is no need for the external force (a society with). No 'just' or 'only' an apology. I can't see how it could be understood any other way, unless there is some supra meaning I'm missing here. :blush:

I was going by Mike's post with this part: "The phrase means that there are things that can't be glossed over by apologies and require something more serious in order to be resolved."

What would be "something more serious" than an apology to resolve a problem? Fifty lashes? That's where I derive the "pound of flesh" or "reparations" meanings.

[Elizabeth]

I was going by Mike's post with this part: "The phrase means that there are things that can't be glossed over by apologies and require something more serious in order to be resolved."
What would be "something more serious" than an apology to resolve a problem? Fifty lashes? That's where I derive the "pound of flesh" or "reparations" meanings.
Yeah, the example I was given if I remember correctly was that one should apologize after breaking something not your own, a case that would never involve the police regardless. All told, it's nothing so harmless as a moral aphorism.

[ArmandV]

Yeah, the example I was given if I remember correctly was that one should apologize after breaking something not your own, a case that would never involve the police regardless. All told, it's nothing so harmless as a moral aphorism.

That's where the reparations part comes in. You break something that belongs to someone else. You apologize and repair/replace/pay for it.

[leonmarino]

Wow!! I see that my post has turned into a topic by itself!! :relief:

I'm pretty sure my mother meant it as "it doesn't suffice to say you're sorry", as she always said it after I apologised. But interestingly, as I was typing the post I realised it could also be interpreted as "you don't need a police force if it suffices to apologise", in a way that it implies that people should be more forgiveful!! But as with many proverbs and one-liners, the beauty is in its ambiguity and the various interpretations of people.

Sorry if I caused any confusion though. :blush:

[Cue]

What I come up with the word "shame culture" would be the concept of being concerned about appearances, worry (rather too much) about what other people think. Group harmony is deemed more important than individualism.

They say "I'd rather die than doing such an embarrassing thing.", which may sound exagerating, but I think Japanese people tend to be, or used to be extremely afraid of making mistakes in public or being different than the majority .

For instance, whenever a teacher asked a question and went "Anyone?" during the class(especially English class), hardly anyone including myself raised their hands even though they knew the answer. Why? Because you(or should I say "I"?) are afraid of making mistakes or just to speak English, or, since no one around you raises his hand, you doing so would make yourself labeled as "different from others" by the rest of the classmates.

Also, Japanese consider "causing someone a trouble" or "getting a help from others" as a shame. In my opinion, that's the one of the reasons why you use "sorry" and "excuse me" phrases a lot in Japanese conversation where you'd say "thank you" instead.

Due to the comedy boom in Japan these days, however, they are becoming a lot less afraid of being laughed or drawing people's attention, I guess. But still, shame culture does exist in Japan.

Cue

[caster51]

this thing is connecting with Kotodama ,too.
for example.
japanese can not say clealy.
I get 100% in the exam tomorrow.
In english, it is easy to declare (like I love you. I win..)
in japanese, it always ambiguous because of its pressure :relief:
I think shame culture means.....
man's relation is stronger than religious relation.
people always think those in unconsciousness
....
I want you to be pleased.
I do not want to be defeated.
I want to contribute.
I want you to praise it. ... so on
I want to do for something.
japanese must use more declaration words like "watashiha .....wo shimasu" to reletions with sincerity.
sometimes it is too much pressure:(

I think "meiwaku wo kakemashita" is more Sincere Apology word than suimasen .

[caster51]

do you remember the incidents that some japanese was caught in Iraq
then How did ppl of japan react?
and the parents of Koda said " Gomeiwaku wo kakemashita":(

[ricecake]

do you remember the incidents that some japanese was caught in Iraq
then How did ppl of japan react?
and the parents of Koda said " Gomeiwaku wo kakemashita":(

Can you please translate romanized Japanese to English ?

[caster51]

Can you please translate romanized Japanese to English ?
it means "I made a trouble to you "
to say sorry is easy for japanese
in case of japanese invasion, the apology to china was used more sincere in japanese way.
they never know that..

[ricecake]

it means "I made a trouble to you "
to say sorry is easy for japanese
in case of japanese invasion, the apology to china was used more sincere in japanese way.
they never know that..

Well ... what I've heard from a few Japan-expert Chinese in TV news interviews who have some understanding of Japanese cultural characteristics,Japanese have OWN DEFINITION OF APOLOGY which is " alien " to Chinese and Koreans' mindset.

Plain apology is meaningless words in Japanese culture,a SINCERE APOLOGY in real sense is .... I don't know how to interpret it in English since I didn't fully grasp their explanation of it.

Anyway,I avoided the subject of " WW 2 " during those several months I befriended a foreigner exchanged Japanese student Noriko Aoki many years ago.She volunteerily brought it up in one casual conversation,I dodged it and immediately changed the subject to a fun topic.Because it could only lead to social discomfort for both of us.She was a younger Japanese person need not to feel " personal guilt " on behalf of other fellow Japanese conducts.

[retrodisease]

ummmm, i like pda and nudity and sometimes scream vagina really loud at passing cars.
i have little shame and no guilt why live if your going to feel bad for living

[caster51]

Consideration related with it and cultural problem
shame cultuer means" Culture formed by fearing shame"
that is , I think "Culture that assumes beauty to be code of conduct"
saying that "Shame" is "The disgraceful behavior is exposed. "
The Japanese whose "Beauty" is a code of conduct fears shame exposing the coming off from "Beauty" like The westerner fears touch to der Zorn Gottes and obtaining the guilt.
moreover Beauty" that the Japanese thinks about is not simple "Beauty" of richly-colored and is not comprehensible. the dignity falls only by it.
Japanese "beauty" is complex and vague in profundity.
The standard is a mystery that surpasses even understanding of the Japanese at time.
However, the Japanese tries also to understand its mystery as "Beauty".
The United States code of conduct might be a "justice."
How about chinese? I dont know
The korean peoples who cry out loud as a manners at the funeral are seen well in South Korea.
However, the Japanese finds beauty to the appearance to endure sadness and to bear shedding tears.

The Japanese thinks it is beautiful that they bite own lip and control himself though the Japanese wants also to cry loudly if an intimate person is lost.

A code of conduct near worship to this 【 beauty 】 transcends even good and
evil at time And, the standard of the 【 beauty 】 is indeed slight(bimyo) and vague.
there is a thing that seems to be ugly at this moment now ,often change to judge it as beauty at the next moment
the Japanese it thinks that it often has a considerably difficult, stifling time for that.
BTW
I think that it is South Korean's code of conduct 【 emotion or passion 】.
I think that Japanese and South Korean's discrepancies often come into view.
The South Korean acts based on 情（emotion or passion　？） .
The beauty and ugliness comes later.
On the other hand, it acts for the Japanese based on the sense of beauty.
情　comes later.
Everything is said, "It is shameful" and the action not based on it is
criticized.
I think that the South Korean is easier if it says which is easy.:relief:
They do not care and are overjoyed in case of gladness.
It cries until vomiting and they grieve if they are sad..........
If the South Korean is praised by them somewhere in the world even a little, they boast and make it like his having been admired.
On the other hand, the Japanese is tight ,uneasy and formal
Even if it is glad or sad, it is controlled.
The Japanese must not lose oneself even if angry.
It is necessary to take care with so as not to disarrange surrounding air even
if they are happy.
If the Japanese is praised somewhere in the world even a little, it is glad as
the Japanese.
However, the Japanese think that they must　not ruin the reputation and feel tight,stiff ,uneasy and formal .
This code of conduct 【 beauty 】 has a lot of　crack that other party take advantage easily.
It is necessary that it must treat other party who barks as having gone mad by sightly manners(礼）。It becomes a stress.
The person who has experienced the complaint procedure by business will
understand.
How easy is it if it is possible to bark according to the other party?

[gaijinalways]

Unfortunately, recently some Japanese seem to have forgotten this concept and have become pretty shameless as@holes in public, with nary an apology. Then again, I know some Westerners who seem to have been raised in a saloon or just have no concept of when things are appropriate. Then again, maybe they are naive (or I am:p).

[caster51]

Never Lost, but Found Daily
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