Japanese concept of HARMONY

[ricecake]

The Kanji character WA means harmony.

Japanese never fail to mention " harmony " plays an inseparable part of their culture.Japanese have a proverb,a nail stands up gets hammer down.

How are Japanese mold into this conform mentality as a people,through family unbringing or society as a whole or national education ?

[Glenn]

Is that all you wanted to say? By the way, I think you mean that 和 means harmony. 話, 輪, 環, 我, etc. don't.

[Mars Man]

I would say that society surely plays the far greater role here. MM

[leonmarino]

I have no idea what this thread is about.

[Blututh]

I think that the early rulers of Japan aggressively encouraged conformity, so that through the generations, parents taught their kids that individuality gets in the way of larger things. I also think that the national education system is responsible as well.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

604 years, April 3
The text which Prince Shotoku made(聖徳太子)
17条憲法(Seventeen-article constitution)
Its Article 1
一曰。以和為貴。無忤為宗。人皆有黨。亦少達者。是以 或不順君父。乍違于隣里。然上和下睦。諧於論事。則事 理自通。何事不成。
http://www.geocities.jp/tetchan_99_99/international/17_kenpou.htm
1.Harmony is to be valued, and an avoidance of wanton opposition to be honored. All men are influenced by class-feelings, and there are few who are intelligent. Hence there are some who disobey their lords and fathers, or who maintain feuds with the neighboring villages. But when those above are harmonious and those below are friendly, and there is concord in the discussion of business, right views of things spontaneously gain acceptance. Then what is there which cannot be accomplished!
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ANCJAPAN/CONST.HTM

"Seventeen-article constitution" is not a thing for the nation.
A thing for a noble and a bureaucrat.

[gaijinalways]

Yet, I wonder if harmony is still so valued here in Japan. Greed seems to be playing a bigger role than before, though I suppose the 'fallen' are villified and held up as bad examples. Also within companies, mostly it's towing the company line, which is not exactly keeping harmony but rather bureaucracy.

But with harmony comes a certain lack of imagination...:wave:

[yukio_michael]

I used to think by and large that all aspects of Japanese life & society were dictated by a desire to fit-in. But then I realised that everyone I've met since that idea formed has been an individual person, not just a representitive of some collective culture.

For sure, societal/racial homogeny play a big part of Japan's social mores and ideas, but these ideas are closer to things like responsibility to Japan, such as recycling, Japanese tradition, national pride, etcetera...

Likes, dislikes, feelings, etcetera are as varied as anywhere else, with the exception of there being a sharper curve as one grows older and has to put away 'childish things'... A few exceptions are the ganguro girls & other teens who ignore the social expectations of them and act wild and rude when they feel the need.

[ricecake]

[QUOTE=Hiroyuki Nagashima]
以和為貴
************************************************** ********
This phrase has Chinese origin,for it translates as HARMONY IS HIGHLY VALUED.

[Glenn]

The whole thing was written in Chinese.

[Ewok85]

The whole thing was written in Chinese.

Read the website, its pretty old so I don't think hiragana was that prevalent.

[Glenn]

That's not the point. It's from the seventh century; hiragana didn't even exist. Everything was written in Chinese at that time.

My comment was in reference to ricecake saying that what he quoted had Chinese origin, while I was saying that it all had Chinese origin. But then again, maybe I misunderstood what he was saying.

[caster51]

That's not the point. It's from the seventh century; hiragana didn't even exist. Everything was written in Chinese at that time.

My comment was in reference to ricecake saying that what he quoted had Chinese origin, while I was saying that it all had Chinese origin. But then again, maybe I misunderstood what he was saying.

at first eveything was not written in Chinese
Everything was written in Chinese characters.
i think most of country was same incidents happen
that is, new power burns all the books on the previous power.
In japan that was happend around AD 700.

.

[caster51]

I think it is kind of like this.:souka:
http://www.meijijingu.or.jp/japanese/gosai/educate/
english
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Imperial_Rescript_on_Education

[Glenn]

Before the Japanese tried adapting Chinese writing to their own language they wrote everything in Chinese. Only later did they start changing the word order of sentences to reflect their own, but then it just looked like funny Chinese. After that they started using it phonetically to represent their language, and from there the hiragana developed. I didn't read through the links you posted thouroughly, but from what I saw they have to do with education during the Meiji Era, which has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

[ricecake]

Japan didn't have own written language until this one Japanese scholarly linguist spent nearly 20 years in China during Tang Dynasty to studied Chinese script KANJI for the development of hiragana.His name should be documented in both Japanese and Chinese history texts.

Korea's HANGUL script was developed during Chosun Dynasty King Sejong's reign,he sent a royal envoy named Shin Cho Sook spent 15-20 years with a Ming linguist scholar who had expertise in Mongol phonetics living in China's Liao-dong peninsula at that time.Korean Hangul was based off Mongol Phaspag script created by Mongols.

[Glenn]

I seriously doubt they studied kanji for the purpose of developing hiragana, especially since it was pretty much an accident. It developed from the highly stylized women's writing of the Heian period.

[ricecake]

I am waiting for fellow Japanese forumer Hiroyuki to clarify this,he seems well educated from his posts.Maybe,he can shed some light here.

[caster51]

Before the Japanese tried adapting Chinese writing to their own language they wrote everything in Chinese
I confuse....
in chinese ...it means chinese language or just kanji(chinese charecter)?

[Glenn]

Chinese language.

[caster51]

Chinese language.
not at all
it means japanese were using the chinese language at that time.

[Glenn]

Alright, I want to you to be clear with what you're saying here. Are you saying that the Japanese never wrote in Chinese?

[caster51]

Are you saying that the Japanese never wrote in Chinese?
no, it has noting to do with.
at first japanese original language existed, than kanji was applied by various methods

[Glenn]

I promise you the Japanese wrote in Chinese. Then they changed the word order to reflect Japanese word order. Anyway, what do you think kambun is?

[caster51]

Anyway, what do you think kambun is?
kanbun is the chinese classic language.
it is not the japanese.
there were some doccuments(nihonsyoki or kojiki ) by japanese ppl in chinese in japan?

kojiki is older than nihonsyoki(kanbun)

[Glenn]

Even Natsume Soseki wrote poetry in Chinese. It was part of the classical learning in Japan for a long time. Men mostly wrote poetry in Chinese in the Heian period, while women wrote in Japanese, but during the Nara period and earlier, when kanji was first imported, the wrote exclusively in Chinese.

[caster51]

Even Natsume Soseki wrote poetry in Chinese. It was part of the classical learning in Japan for a long time. Men mostly wrote poetry in Chinese in the Heian period, while women wrote in Japanese, but during the Nara period and earlier, when kanji was first imported, the wrote exclusively in Chinese.

when i was high school kid, even I can write some.
because kanbun is one of subjects in high school

[undrentide]

I seriously doubt they studied kanji for the purpose of developing hiragana, especially since it was pretty much an accident. It developed from the highly stylized women's writing of the Heian period.

...or they found writing down everything in kanji just too tedious and lazy hands wrote it in simplified way. :blush:
(Buddihsm priests also simplified kanji in different way into katakana.)

Anyway I agree with Glenn san, kana delvepment was not something made with purpose from the beginning, it occurred spontaneously.

[caster51]

わが国では固有の文字がなかったため、漢字を直輸入し て自らの文字とし、長い間かかって使いこなしてきまし た。そして、漢文も最初は当時の中国語で直読していた ものを、「漢文訓読法」によって日本語の語順で読み下 すようになりました。
「漢文訓読法」により、漢文は外国語文ではなく日本語 文として読めるようになったため、日本人は漢文を外国 語とはみなさず、自国の古典の一部だと思っています。 そういうわけで、高校で古典の一部として習うのです
http://homepage2.nifty.com/kanbun/izanai/izanai1/01-01kanbun.htm
japan did not have japanese chracters( there is shindai moji)
therefore japan imported chinese characters(kanji)

kanbun was needed for an intellectual to write and get infomations
of course some intellectual wrote only kanbun.
however kanbun was changed to japnese with some evolution first.
tha japanese language itself evolved with kanji

[undrentide]

kanbun is the chinese classic language.
it is not the japanese.
there were some doccuments(nihonsyoki or kojiki ) by japanese ppl in chinese in japan?
kojiki is older than nihonsyoki(kanbun)

Even Natsume Soseki wrote poetry in Chinese. It was part of the classical learning in Japan for a long time. Men mostly wrote poetry in Chinese in the Heian period, while women wrote in Japanese, but during the Nara period and earlier, when kanji was first imported, the wrote exclusively in Chinese.

古事記
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8F%A4%E4%BA%8B%E8%A8%98#.E5.BA.8F.E3.82.92.E4. BD.B5.E3.81.9B.E3.81.9F.E3.82.8A
日本書紀
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E6%9B%B8%E7%B4%80#.E6.96.87.E4. BD.93.E3.83.BB.E7.94.A8.E8.AA.9E

It seems that both 古事記 and 日本書紀 are written in 漢文体.
Now what is 漢文? According to the online dictionary, its definition is;
かんぶん 0 【漢文】
(1)現代中国語の文章に対して、古い中国の文章。
(2)(1)にならって日本人が書いた漢字だけから成る文章 。広く変体漢文を含めてもいう。

So 古事記 and 日本書紀 are written in kanji only, and the word order of course follows classic Chinese.
e.g. 稽古照今（古を稽へて、今に照らす*）
The sentence in bracket shows how it should read so that it fits Japanese and understandable for the Japanese.
This method (読み下し）is still taught at High Schools, at 漢文 class to read real classic Chinese.

I'm not an expert and I'm not sure whether the text written in 漢文体 should be called Chinese or not.
I don't know what difference between (1) and (2) (apart from (1) was written by the Chinese and (2) by the Japanese), and how big the difference is...
:clueless: :clueless: :clueless:
Is it a question of terminology or question of definition of "Chinese", I have no clue.
:relief:

[pipokun]

Kanbun was a great invention than engrish or Katakana English.

[caster51]

kanbun is sentences written only by the Chinese character(kanji).
kanbun is not definiton of chinese language.

I think it is same as romaji is not English

[ricecake]

I swell,there is one Japanese script derived from Kanji.

The Chinese name for it in three Kanji characters we pronounce PIN CHA MIN.

Please don't get me wrong,I am not trying to downplay ancient Japanese's achievement.I just want to get to the bottom of this.

[Glenn]

This is what I'm talking about. This is from omniglot.com (http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese.htm)

At first the Japanese wrote in Classical Chinese or in a Japanese-Chinese hybrid style. An example of the hybrid style is the kojiki (Records of Antiquity) written in 712 AD. They then start to use Chinese characters to write Japanese in a style known as man'yōgana, literarly "Ten Thousand leaf syllabic script", which used the characters for their phonetic values

From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_writing_system):

Initially, Chinese characters were not used for writing Japanese; to be literate meant the ability to read and write Classical Chinese. Eventually a system called kanbun (漢文) was developed, which used both Chinese characters (kanji) and something very similar to Chinese grammar, but often with diacritic marks placed alongside the Chinese text to give hints as to the Japanese equivalent. The earliest written history of Japan, the Kojiki (古事記), believed to have been compiled sometime before 712, was written in kanbun. Even today all Japanese high schools and some junior high schools teach kanbun as part of their Japanese language curriculum.

According to this, Kambun is a little different, in that it has a sense of Japaneseness to it. So you're right that Kambun isn't the same as Chinese.

Anyway, Prince Shōtoku wrote in the early 7th century, which is before the late 7th century, which is when the Japanese started writing in a Japanized Chinese, at least according to John Brantley's A Descriptive Grammar of Early Old Japanese Prose. He gave the example 人捕虎也 as a sentence that would have been written up until the end of the 7th century, when it would have been written instead as 人虎捕也 to reflect Japanese word order. But at that time it was still not being used phonetically as far as I know.

According to this site (http://www.answers.com/topic/manyoshu) the Kojiki was the first text to use Man'yōgana. I didn't realize that; that's 47 years before the Man'yōshū was compiled. Anyway, that site also says that 大伴家持 "edited, updated and refashioned an unknown number of ancient poems," which to me means that he re-wrote them using the writing system of the time, which was different than the Chinese language system that was used before then. My point in bringing this up is that we can't look at the Man'yoshu and say that the older poems in it were written in Japanese just because they appear that way in the collection.

Due to all of that, I believe that what Prince Shōtoku wrote in 604 was written in Chinese. That also explains why most Japanese people probably couldn't understand it, but my Chinese-speaking ex-roommate can.

[ricecake]

This is what I'm talking about. This is from omniglot.com (http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese.htm)



Thanks for the link www.omniglot.com.

I was right,according to this website explains Hiragana syllables developed from Kanji characters.

One Japanese scholar in Nara period spent 18 year ( 752-771 ) in China during Tang Dynasty,he was first of the two Japanese literary scholars instrumentally created this Japanese script according to my book tiltled " Korea's intelligence " explains as to why Korea was some 600 years late in development of their own written language Hangul.

[Glenn]

Well, the language that they spoke and what they wrote were two different things; I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I also didn't mean to say that you were wrong about hiragana coming from kanji; I just meant that the kanji weren't imported to create hiragana.

I don't know much about ancient Korean or the development of hangul, though (I don't know that I'd call hangul a language, either).

[caster51]

kojiki is kanbun by稗田阿礼Hieda arei
However they were not chinese language.
original

阿加陀麻波 袁佐閉比迦礼杼 斯良多麻能 岐美何余曽比 斯多布斗久阿理祁理
a ka da ma wa o sa he hi ka re do....

translate
赤玉は　緒さへ光れど　白玉の　君が装し　貴くありけ り
シュメール
aka dam,u sur gig rag.si lig dam kin gi u gush tab tuku ur,kil.
アカ　ダマユ　サエ　ヒガ　レジ　シ　ラジ　ダマ　キ ン　ガ　ユ　グシ　タブ　トク　アルケル
translation
私の愛した夫よ、宮中の僧侶は（あなたが）病気だから 祈祷をすると、布施をせがみます。私の大君よ、もっと 度重ねて消息を聞かせて下さい。手紙を頂くのを、心待 ちに致しております
even that is not undestood by classic cinese language.
http://www004.upp.so-net.ne.jp/teikoku-denmo/html/history/honbun/kojiki.html

[Glenn]

I thought I admitted that when I said that it was the first text to use man'yōgana. I wasn't originally talking about the Kojiki anyway, I was talking about the text that Prince Shōtoku wrote. [Edit] I just noticed that the first link said that the Kojiki was written in kambun. I don't know why the information is contradictory, but I'm going with the man'yōgana claim.

By the way, technically speaking, that "wa" should be "pa" in the text that you quoted. I'm not sure what the sounds you have under the 赤玉は　緒さへ光れど etc. are. It doesn't look too accurate to me.

[undrentide]

kojiki is kanbun by稗田阿礼Hieda arei
However they were not chinese language.
original
translate
赤玉は　緒さへ光れど　白玉の　君が装し　貴くありけ り
シュメール
aka dam,u sur gig rag.si lig dam kin gi u gush tab tuku ur,kil.
アカ　ダマユ　サエ　ヒガ　レジ　シ　ラジ　ダマ　キ ン　ガ　ユ　グシ　タブ　トク　アルケル
translation
私の愛した夫よ、宮中の僧侶は（あなたが）病気だから 祈祷をすると、布施をせがみます。私の大君よ、もっと 度重ねて消息を聞かせて下さい。手紙を頂くのを、心待 ちに致しております
even that is not undestood by classic cinese language.
http://www004.upp.so-net.ne.jp/teikoku-denmo/html/history/honbun/kojiki.html

What you've quoted as "translation" is not valid - why translation from Sumer language????
（どうしてわざわざ「とんでも学説」ばかり根拠にする んだか…）:okashii:

赤玉は　緒さへ光れど　白玉の　君が装いし　貴くあり けり
【どんなに美しい赤い玉をみても白玉のような尊いあな たのお姿が思い出されてなりません。】
http://www.geocities.jp/tomasanjp/kojiki15.html

What you indicated as "not Chinese" is a part of poetry, which could not have been written other than in Japanese (in 万葉仮名) because otherwise the rhyme is lost.
But other part is written in 漢文.

If you are serious, you have to quote adequately.
Haven't you bothered to check the original text at all? Even a non-expert like me is able to find something like this (see below) after checking with Google for a few minutes.

I think this is a very good website showing both the original text and how you can 読み下し to understand it.
http://www004.upp.so-net.ne.jp/dassai1/
Here is the 1st volume of 古事記.
http://www004.upp.so-net.ne.jp/dassai1/kojiki_kami/frame/kojiki_kami_frame.htm
You can find the song part (阿加陀麻波...) at the very end of the text.
As you see, text before/after the song/poetry is 漢文.
然後者　雖恨其伺情不忍戀心　因治養其御子之縁附其弟 玉依毘賣而　獻歌之　其歌曰
　　阿加陀麻波　袁佐閇比迦禮杼　斯良多麻能　岐美何 余曾比斯　多布斗久阿理祁理
　爾其比古遲【三字以音】答歌曰
　　意岐都登理　加毛度久斯麻邇　和賀韋泥斯　伊毛波 和須禮士　余能許登碁登邇
　故日子穗穗手見命者坐高千穗宮　伍佰捌拾歳　御陵者 　即在其高千穗山之西也
(2nd and 4th line is quotation of the song, other parts are plain text.)

[ricecake]

Yeah,first and last lines are in Chinese text for I can fully understand these two phrases.The three lines in between probably Kanji transcription of Japanese or a foreign language.

[undrentide]

By the way, technically speaking, that "wa" should be "pa" in the text that you quoted. I'm not sure what the sounds you have under the 赤玉は　緒さへ光れど etc. are. It doesn't look too accurate to me.

Yes, you're right because 赤玉は... is modern script.
I reckon he doesn't have a clue what you're talking about, though.
(I know, I'm mean... :evil:)

[caster51]

You can find the song part (阿加陀麻波...) at the very end of the text.
As you see, text before/after the song/poetry is 漢文.
I told Kojiki is older than nihonsyoki(kanbun)
I'm not sure what the sounds you have under the 赤玉は　緒さへ光れど etc. are. It doesn't look
http://fubako.s150.xrea.com/kanajiten.html
古事記の漢字の使い方に、すでに万葉仮名が使われてい ると
kojiki was already used in manyou-kana
万葉仮名が奈良時代末期にでき
伊豆毛」も出雲の万葉音仮名として表しています
『古事記』は、古漢字を使って書かれている。
しかし漢文ではない
the chinese characters were used in Kojiki
However those are not Kanbun
http://www.neonet.to/kojiki/ronko/koukoji-hihan01.html
there is no evidence that old japanese writing was chinese language
……『古事記』を訓読するにあたって、まずはっきりさ せておかなければならないのは、その文章が日本語を書 き表したものだということである。

[undrentide]

I told Kojiki is older than nihonsyoki(kanbun)
Er...so what? I don't think anyone is saying it isn't.
I don't see your point at all...

http://fubako.s150.xrea.com/kanajiten.html
Glenn san is saying that the pronunciation was different from the present one.
Many kana was pronounced differently at the time when kojiki was written.
Now we write 「あかだまは」 and pronounce it 「あかだまわ」 for 阿加陀麻波, but 波 was proounced something close to ぱ (pa), not は (wa), for example.

=correction=
Ooops, I seem to have misunderstood Glenn's post.
He meant the part of what the webpage claims as Sumer language.
(Sorry, Glenn san!)

kojiki was already used in manyou-kana
I understood that you meant to say manyougana was already used in Kojiki, and again I do not think anyone denied it here.
So...???


the chinese characters were used in Kojiki
However those are not Kanbun
http://www.neonet.to/kojiki/ronko/koukoji-hihan01.html
there is no evidence that old japanese writing was chinese language
I'd like to say that the source you referred is not reliable.

There's no evidence? But you can see it clearly in 古事記.
然後者　
然くして後は、
雖恨其伺情不忍戀心　
其の伺いし情（こころ）を恨むと雖ども戀（こ）うる心 に忍（た）えずして、
因治養其御子之縁附其弟
其の御子を治養（ひた）す縁（よし）に因りて、
玉依毘賣而　
其の弟（おと）の玉依毘賣（たまよりびめ）に附（つ） けて
獻歌之　
歌を獻（たてまつ）りき。　
其歌曰
其の歌に曰く
*This part is 漢文.
You can see the difference between the original and its 読み下し文.
Not only you have to add 助詞 and 送り仮名, you also have to change word order in some places.
You cannot regard it as Japanese.

阿加陀麻波　
あかだまは
袁佐閇比迦禮杼
おさへひかれど
斯良多麻能
しらたまの
岐美何
きみか
余曾比斯　
よそひし
多布斗久阿理祁理
たふとくありけり
*This part is Japanese, written in 万葉仮名.
One kanji is applied to each phoneme.
You can read as it is.
The different is so distinct, and it is obvious that you cannot regard the above 漢文 as Japanese.

[caster51]

I'd like to say that the source you referred is not reliable.
There's no evidence? But you can see it clearly in 古事記.

yes before kojiki. there is no doccuments.
The whole thing was written in Chinese.
Before the Japanese tried adapting Chinese writing to their own language they wrote everything in Chinese

[Glenn]

If there are no documents before the Kojiki, then where did this (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=354979&postcount=6) come from?

There certainly were documents before the Kojiki, both poetry and prose. If there weren't, then the whole field of study focusing on Old Japanese would be moot.

By the way, what were you trying to accomplish with the last two quotes? You seem to have proven my point for me, which is the opposite of what you've been arguing.

The part under the 赤玉 etc. part that I was questioning was this: "aka dam,u sur gig rag.si lig dam kin gi u gush tab tuku ur,kil." That isn't and never was Japanese. If you're trying to prove that Japanese was always written in Japanese, then you certainly are taking a strange path to get there by putting some language that isn't Japanese under Japanese text.

I really have no idea what your purpose is.

[caster51]

"aka dam,u sur gig rag.si lig dam kin gi u gush tab tuku ur,kil." That isn't and never was Japanese. If you're trying to prove that Japanese was always written in Japanese,
:blush: :blush:
I never said " japanese was always written in Japanese"
I dont know japanese language based on what language
even now sometime romaji, chinese character.
at first I said " distinguish chinese language and chinese characters"
you said " everithing was in chinese language"
I said " there was basic japanese language that existed first, then that was applied by chinese characters."

[Glenn]

No, I said that the Japanese wrote exclusively in Chinese until the 8th century, depending on how you want to look at it. You could say until the mid to late 7th century if you think that kambun is that much of a departure from Chinese. However, they didn't write in Japanese until the 8th century (the Kojiki being the first example of written Japanese, even though it also had kambun segments, as undrentide pointed out).

The spoken language was of course different than Chinese; I never claimed that it wasn't. I also never claimed that the Japanese language was based on another language. I know that the Japanese language was first, but Chinese characters weren't applied to the Japanese language until the 8th century. Until that time all of the writing was done in Chinese. That's what I was saying.

[caster51]

Until that time all of the writing was done in Chinese.
Please link its web for an evidence.
at least kojiki was not written in chinese language

[Glenn]

I'll have to look for more evidence on the web. I'm basing my assertions mostly on the book A Descriptive Grammar of Early Old Japanese Prose.

[ricecake]

I said that the Japanese wrote exclusively in Chinese until the 8th century.

I know that the Japanese language was first, but Chinese characters weren't applied to the Japanese language until the 8th century. Until that time all of the writing was done in Chinese. That's what I was saying.



caster51


Read my post #35

[Glenn]

This is coming from Cornell, a highly respected school in Japanese studies. See the original text here (http://ling.cornell.edu/japanese_historical_linguistics/1%20Writing%20and%20Sources.pdf).

1.2 Introduction of writing in Japan; early writing culture
The Japanese were exposed to written matter as early as mid-Yayoi. Thus, inscribed Chinese coins have been unearthed in excavations of sites dating from the first century AD. There is no evidence of any awareness of the function of writing at that early stage, however, and it is likely that also the characters which appear on mirrors and other artefacts produced in Japan through the third and fourth centuries were simple ornaments, in imitation of those found on articles from the continent. To all appearances, writing as such, in the form of Chinese Classics, was introduced into Japan early in the fifth century as part of the great cultural influx from Paekche. Kojiki (Philippi 1968, chapter 104) and Nihon Shoki (Aston 1896, book X, chapter 10) recount this event as the advent of the scribes Wani and Akichi in the years Ôjin 15 and 16 (now thought to be early in the fifth century, possibly 404-5; the traditional dating is 284-5). For some time, writing remained in the hands of hereditary professional scribes (fubito) who were of continental heritage. Through the sixth and seventh centuries Sinitic culture, including Chinese Buddhism, flowed into Japan through Paekche. In the course of this, written Chinese assumed enormous importance in matters of state, philosophy, and religion. Any serious engagement with such matters required knowledge of written Chinese. Likewise, writing was for some time equivalent with writing in Chinese, and in fact, a form of Classical Chinese
remained the medium for much serious writing well into the modern period. Also composition of Chinese poetry became highly regarded
and remained so long into the medieval period. The oldest surviving poetry anthology in Japan is Kaifûsô (ca. 751) which is a compilation of Chinese poetry written in Japan. One reason for the scarcity of Japanese sources from the 9th century is that literary writing in Chinese became very popular and almost replaced writing in Japanese.

This (http://www.kanji.org/kanji/japanese/writing/outline.htm) has a different date for the importation of kanji, but...

In the early centuries of the Christian era, the Japanese did not have a writing system of their own. As the Japanese began to interact with the Chinese, they adopted Chinese institutions and adapted them to their own needs. Chinese characters were introduced to Japan via the Korean peninsula in the fourth century A.D. In the next two centuries, Chinese books on philosophy and Buddhism were brought to Japan and studied by the Japanese aristocracy

Initially, the Japanese used the characters for writing in authentic Chinese or a hybrid Japanese-Chinese style. A good example of the latter is the 古事記 kojiki (Ancient Chronicles) written in 712. Since the Japanese did not have their own script, they soon began to use the characters to write the Japanese language as well. In the early stages, they employed the characters purely for their phonetic values. For example, the native Japanese word yama 'mountain' was written 也麻, with the first character representing ya and the second ma. This method of writing is referred to as 万葉仮名 man'yōgana because it was used extensively in the 万葉集 man'yōshū, an eighth-century anthology of Japanese poems.

Well, this will have to do for now. I'm tired of looking through sites that don't quite have specific information.

[undrentide]

,
:blush: :blush:
I never said " japanese was always written in Japanese"
I dont know japanese language based on what language
even now sometime romaji, chinese character.
at first I said " distinguish chinese language and chinese characters"
you said " everithing was in chinese language"
I said " there was basic japanese language that existed first, then that was applied by chinese characters."

I think you are mixing up the language itself and script of the language.
As Glenn san pointed out, Chinese language (not just kanji) was used in ancient Japan for writing.

言語と言語表記をごっちゃにしていらっしゃるようです ね。
日本語の表記が最初は漢字を借用し（万葉仮名）それが 後にひらがな・カタカナに発展していったのは事実です が、まだ日本語の表記が確立していなかった時代には、 公文書は中国語で書かれていました。（中国の文字で、 ではなく、中国語で、です。）

Quotation from Wikipedia
古墳時代、奈良時代、平安時代までは古典中国語の文語 （漢文）が朝廷の用いる公の言語であり（これはベトナ ム、朝鮮半島と同様。）、当初それは中国音で読まれた 。しかし日本語と中国語の音韻体系の隔離は激しく、日 本語のそれでは中国の漢字音を高い精度で模倣できない 為しだいにこの方法は廃れていった。 替わって現れたのは、漢文に日本語として必要な文法的 指標（助詞、助動詞、送り仮名など）を付け加え、一部 の漢字に大和言葉を訓として当てはめる事で日本語とし て読む方法であった。これを漢文訓読と呼ぶ。日本語固 有の部分は漢字の音を借りた万葉仮名で表された。（後 に片仮名に替わる。）
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E8%AA%9E#.E8.A1.A8.E8.A8.98
日本語 1.歴史 1.4 表記

Following page shows the original text of 憲法十七条 Constitution of 17 Articles by 聖徳太子 Shoutoku taishi.
http://ja.wikisource.org/wiki/%E5%8D%81%E4%B8%83%E6%9D%A1%E6%86%B2%E6%B3%95
It is not Japanese in 万葉仮名, but Chinese language.

[caster51]

Following page shows the original text of 憲法十七条 Constitution of 17 Articles by 聖徳太子 Shoutoku taishi.
there is no original one.
there was 憲法十七条 Constitution of 17 written in nihonshoki .
nihonsyoki was written in ancient chinese language (kanbun)
we can not say shotokutaishi wrote it in kanbun

[undrentide]

.
there is no original one.
there was 憲法十七条 Constitution of 17 written in nihonshoki .
nihonsyoki was written in ancient chinese language (kanbun)
we can not say shotokutaishi wrote it in kanbun

Thank you for pointing my misunderstanding.
However, in which text it appears or who wrote it are not the main points.
And now you stated yourself that 日本書紀 was written in ancient chinese language (kanbun). It seems to contradict your earlier post:

there is no evidence that old japanese writing was chinese language

日本語の表記が最初は漢字を借用し（万葉仮名）それが 後にひらがな・カタカナに発展していったのは事実です が、まだ日本語の表記が確立していなかった時代には、 公文書は中国語で書かれていました。（中国の文字で、 ではなく、中国語で、です。）

Now do you agree with the above?

[caster51]

日本語の表記が最初は漢字を借用し（万葉仮名）それが 後にひらがな・カタカナに発展していったのは事実です が、まだ日本語の表記が確立していなかった時代には、 公文書は中国語で書かれていました。（中国の文字で、 ではなく、中国語で、です。）

no.. there is no evidence at all
kojiki is older than nihonsyoki.
the kanbun in kojiki is only parts of preface.

[undrentide]

no.. there is no evidence at all
kojiki is older than nihonsyoki.
the kanbun in kojiki is only parts of preface.

There's no evidence FOR WHAT?
Please tell me what are you trying to prove?
Your answer does not make sense at all.

(I never dreamt that he'd have difficulty in understanding even in Japanese... *Sigh*)

[caster51]

I say again, even before kojiki there is no evidence that everything was witten in Chinese language
nandomoiwaseruna
納戸母岩瀬流那
even small matter , kanbun is not chinese language
kanbun is ancient 漢 language.

[undrentide]

I say again, even before kojiki there is no evidence that everything was witten in Chinese language
nandomoiwaseruna
even small matter , kanbun is not chinese language
kanbun is ancient 漢 language.

WHO said that EVERYTHING was written in Chinese???
I think you should re-read all the posts including yours.

[caster51]

WHO said that EVERYTHING was written in Chinese???
I think you should re-read all the posts including yours.

日本語の表記が最初は漢字を借用し（万葉仮名）それが 後にひらがな・カタカナに発展していったのは事実です が、まだ日本語の表記が確立していなかった時代には、 公文書は中国語で書かれていました。（中国の文字で、 ではなく、中国語で、です。）

:souka: :souka: :souka:

[undrentide]

どこに「すべての」なんて書かれていますか？

公文書は中国語で書かれていた、というだけですよ。
それに私が引用したWikiのページ、ちゃんと読んでいらっしゃらないでしょう。
そこにはこうも書いてあるんですよ。
一方私的な領域では純和風体の文章が書かれた。和歌な どでは大和言葉を中心とし、それを万葉仮名で記す方法 が取られる。
つまり、朝廷では中国語が公用語で文書も中国語で書か れていたけれど、私的な文章は純和風文体つまり日本語 で書かれていた、ということです。
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%...A1.A8.E8.A8.98
日本語 1.歴史 1.4 表記

Which part says "EVERYTHING"?
It simply states that the official documents were written in Chinese.
And it is obvious that you did not read the paeg I've quoted as backing evidence. It says that private documents were written in pure Japanese style and songs/poetry were in Yamato-kotoba (original Japanese) using Manyougana.
That means, at the government Chinese was the official language and their documents were also written in Chinese, while in private people wrote in Japanese.

[caster51]

従来の記紀や万葉集をもとにした研究では、はじめ、正確 な漢文を習得した一部の高級役人が日本語を漢文の文書 にしていたが、それが普及するにつれて、文章が崩れて いくというのが通説だった。ところが、木簡の研究によ り、「崩れた漢文の形で日本語の表記は始まり、徐々に 書記法が整っていったことが、わかってきた」という。
こういうのもありますよ。
当初、行政文書は渡来人か一部の書記官が漢文で書いて いたとみられるが、大量の文書が必要になったとき、多 くの役人に正式の漢文を勉強させるより、日本語を漢字 で書く方法がすでにあったのを活用した方が効率的だと 判断されたのだろう
この崩れた漢文ってなんでしょうね。
漢字を並べろは漢文かもしれませんね。
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/book/news/20060123bk12.htm
要するにわからないということです。

[caster51]

Which part says "EVERYTHING"?
It simply states that the official documents were written in Chinese.
Ok then...
that was not everything.....
i understood.

[Glenn]

Actually, I said "exclusively." :blush:

Anyway, I think we can all agree that at the least, official documents were written in Chinese. Also, even if Prince Shôtoku didn't write it himself, the 憲法十七件 was written in Chinese.

[caster51]

I think we can all agree that at the least, official documents were written in Chinese.
strictly speaking , it was not chinese language.
it was 漢 language.:-)
漢language is not today's chinese language either.
漢　was a part of china today
anyway we study that as one of japanese ancient language in high school from the Analects of Confucius.etc .
We do not have consciousness that studies Chinese language at all.

[Glenn]

Sorry, I meant Chinese = classical Chinese in this case. Are you sure it was Han? The Han dynasty ended before Japan started using kanji widely.

[caster51]

The Han dynasty ended before Japan started using kanji widely.
漢文が入ってきたころは、渡来系の氏族が書記の任務に あたっていたということを示している。つまり倭国土着 の豪族たちは、渡来人たちに書記の仕事をさせていたと いうことである。また、日本書紀の記事で菟道稚郎子が 漢文を習ったと書かれているように、非渡来系の豪族も 、渡来系氏族から漢字・漢文を学んでいったと考えられ ている
I think the immigrant's clans who were from Han dinasty or etc undertook the duty as the clerk.
Are you sure it was Han?
江戸時代に発見された金印には漢委奴国王」という漢字が 刻まれていた。この記事からすると、当時の倭国の人々 が全く漢文が分からなかったとは考え難
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%BC%A2%E6%96%87
唐T'ang-Dynasty (618-907) was not Han chinese dynasty
strictly speaking again,:-) there is no chinese langage even today
北京語 上海語 福建語 広東語...( It has the difference more than English and French.
it is not accurate that we use chinese language united.
each lunguages are hard to say the chinese language as the chinese dialect
I can not say even kanbun as ancient chinese language

It is one of the opinions that I stick to restrict the name of language.

[Glenn]

I had a feeling you were going that direction with that.

I agree that they aren't dialects, but different languages. But I think everyone agrees that the language that was written in China for quite some time and in ancient Japan (that wasn't Japanese) was classical Chinese. What else do you want to call it? That's all it's ever been referred to as around me.

[caster51]

that was kanbun or han writing

[Mikawa Ossan]

The Kanji character WA means harmony.
Japanese never fail to mention " harmony " plays an inseparable part of their culture.Japanese have a proverb,a nail stands up gets hammer down.
How are Japanese mold into this conform mentality as a people,through family unbringing or society as a whole or national education ?
For the curious, here is the OP.