Christianity in Japan [Archive]

thomas

May 1, 2003, 20:04

Originally posted by Sekabin
I was wondering if there's any link between religion and education - as education is so important in Japan...

You are touching on an interesting topic here.

I would like to know how many of them are recent converts and how many belong to the "endemic" kirishitan community. Also, in the first case what's their motivation to convert?

Just found this page that partly answers my question:

Among Christians in Japan, it was estimated that there were 440,000 Catholics and around 1 million Protestants as of the end of 1994.

=> http://www.jinjapan.org/today/culture/culture1.html

I assume that the relatively high number of protestants can be accounted to active evangelical missionizing after WWII.

A Japanese perspective:

Why are there very few Christians in Japan?

Japanese is not familiar with the idea of unique God who creates the world itself. In fact, Hakuseki Arai who is famous scholar in Edo period pointed out it is very strange that western people believe in God who created the world though they had much knowledge about world. For western people it may natural to image God to create the world as the cause of it itself but for Japanese it is very strange, because for them the world should grow by itself.

And also Japanese dislike the God who excludes other gods because this exclusionism will cause trouble among people. Japanese people respect the spirit of WA (harmony) which avoids trouble. I guess it is the most important reason why Christianity is not accepted in Japan. Many Japanese people considered the cause of civil wars found in our world is the difference of religions as well as that of race. I do not think the idea of God is not the cause of civil wars but think, on the other hand, Christian people as well as Muslim should be more tolerant to others.

=> http://www.oct-net.ne.jp/~iwatanrk/e-WHYre.htm

Maciamo

May 1, 2003, 23:08

Last December, some fundamentalist-proselytist-sect-like Christian group was delivering some message in loudspeakers in Japanese about Jesus being (re)born in the streets of Ginza. I found that they were disturbing the usually peaceful astmosphere and the way they spoke, like indoctrinated machines repeating endlessly the same message during hours and standing with people carrying loudspeakers at every street corner, was spooky !

The scary things with Japanese Christians is that they are mostly new converts and thus more fanatics than most Western Christian, who are Christian by tradition or just because of their family rather than by choice. I don't know any Japanese Xian, but I know a few Koreans who are (both catholics and protestants). I was flabbergatsed to hear that they didn't want to enter a traditional temple of their country because it was Buddhist and they were Christians. It's rather alarming that these young people should be so intolerant just because they were so indocrinated by missionaries (my friends weren't born Christian, but converted in their teens or early twenties).

kirei_na_me

May 1, 2003, 23:44

Yikes. That is scary. I can't believe that they are blasting about Jesus through loudspeakers in Japan. Gah, that is just plain weird. I guess it's just because I can't really see Japanese doing something like that...

Anyway, one of my Japanese friends is a Christian and she goes to a Baptist church there in her town in Japan. I'm thinking, "BAPTISTS?! In Japan?!" Anyway, when I was asking her about her thoughts on Buddhism, she told me I was crazy for wanting to know about it, because it was stupid. I was again shocked by that type of response.

berean_315

May 2, 2003, 01:56

I have noticed that many of the Japanese who study at my university here in the UK are Christians...

I wonder how they would define Christian? I know a while back (maybe now as well) I read it was fashionable for Japanese to have a "Christian" style wedding (even though they weren't Christian), and many times they would also have a Buddhist or Shinto ceremony. So I don't know if becoming a Christian also has some type of "fad" appeal, or is a true conversion.

Last December, some fundamentalist-proselytist-sect-like Christian group was delivering some message in loudspeakers in Japanese about Jesus being (re)born in the streets of Ginza. I found that they were disturbing the usually peaceful astmosphere and the way they spoke, like indoctrinated machines repeating endlessly the same message during hours and standing with people carrying loudspeakers at every street corner, was spooky !

I am a Christian, but personally do not like this type of activity. If someone from another religious faith was doing the same thing it wouldn't appeal to me.

Just curious, are other religious groups visible in Japan (Buddhist, Muslims, etc) preaching, passing out literature, etc. in public?

Thanks,

Gerald

Maciamo

May 2, 2003, 10:06

Originally posted by berean_315
I wonder how they would define Christian? I know a while back (maybe now as well) I read it was fashionable for Japanese to have a "Christian" style wedding (even though they weren't Christian), and many times they would also have a Buddhist or Shinto ceremony. So I don't know if becoming a Christian also has some type of "fad" appeal, or is a true conversion.

Most Japanese people want to get married in front of a Western-looking priest in a (hotel) chapel. It's pure fashion and they don't care that the priest is comlpetely fake or what he is saying. It's for the "romantic feeling" it gives, the "like-in-Hollywood-movies" mentality. Of course, these Japanese aren't and son't pretend to be Christian at all. They probably don't even know that Jesus died on a cross or who Abraham is, to give an idea of their knowledge about this religion. Let's say that Japanese women/girls associate the white wedding dress with a church (and the kimono with the shrine).

Just curious, are other religious groups visible in Japan (Buddhist, Muslims, etc) preaching, passing out literature, etc. in public?

Not really. Anyway Buddhism and Shinto don't make proselytism. Most Japanese consider themselves both Buddhist and Shinto or "religion-less", which is about the same for them, given that they know less about "their" religion than the average tourist to Japan having read their guidebook in the plane. I was amazed that people living around a temple or shrine couldn't even tell if it was Buddhist or Shinto (it's very easy to tell, the shrine have a "torii" gate and other distinctive symbols, then it's in the name itself. See my article about temples and shrines (http://maciamo_philo.tripod.com/maciamoessays/id1.html) for more info).

Muslims are very few and far between in Japan. I believethat most of them are non Japanese (Pakistani, Turkish, Indonesian, etc.). If there are Japanese muslims, they must have got married to foreigner who were Muslim themselves.

I sometimes think I am hearing the muezzin call to prayer, but that's the gyoza-vendor shouting "gyooozaaa, gyoooozaaaah... gyoozaaa, gyoooozaahh". It does sound very similar. :p

thomas

May 2, 2003, 21:01

Originally posted by Maciamo
Most Japanese people want to get married in front of a Western-looking priest in a (hotel) chapel. It's pure fashion and they don't care that the priest is comlpetely fake or what he is saying. It's for the "romantic feeling" it gives, the "like-in-Hollywood-movies" mentality. Of course, these Japanese aren't and son't pretend to be Christian at all. They probably don't even know that Jesus died on a cross or who Abraham is, to give an idea of their knowledge about this religion. Let's say that Japanese women/girls associate the white wedding dress with a church (and the kimono with the shrine).

I have an Austrian acquaintance living in Gunma. He makes a good living from acting as wedding pastor, lol.

Here's the latest feature of Captain Japan, right on topic.

Assembly Line Gospel: Japan's Foreign Wedding Pastors

=> http://www.bigempire.com/sake/wedding_pastor.html

Sekabin

May 3, 2003, 03:31

Originally posted by thomas
I have an Austrian acquaintance living in Gunma. He makes a good living from acting as wedding pastor, lol.

Here's the latest feature of Captain Japan, right on topic.

Assembly Line Gospel: Japan's Foreign Wedding Pastors

=> http://www.bigempire.com/sake/wedding_pastor.html

LOL that's funny. Maybe if I need extra money I can do Christian style weddings (joke!).

Sekabin

May 3, 2003, 03:37

Originally posted by Maciamo
The scary things with Japanese Christians is that they are mostly new converts and thus more fanatics than most Western Christian, who are Christian by tradition or just because of their family rather than by choice.

I think this is true of any converts to any religion - those new Evangelical converts I know in the UK are extremely fanatical! Japan seems to have its fair share of new religious movements, and an evangelical-style Christianity would fit in quite well into this sort of environment.

I think it's interesting now however, that there's the possibility of post-WW2 second-generation Christians. Many of the Japanese Christians I have met abroad have been like this, and are quite similar in their religious behaviour to the sort of moderate Christianity found in the UK.

I'd really be interested to find out about the link with education though - whether some sort of religious ethic fits in with a study/work ethic... :note:

NANGI

May 3, 2003, 12:12

Konnichiwa Minasan!

I think it is very difficult to understand Japanese religious faith. Because Japanese religious faith is very different from foreigner's.
An instance, the Japanese celebrate a newborn baby's birthday in Shinto shrine, and hold a wedding in church, and hold a funeral in Buddhist temple. But most of all Japanese say "I don't believe in God" or "I have not religious faith".
Are the Japanese an unprincipled people? Atheist? Complete rationalist? All of them are NO! The Japanese has deeply religious and most of all Japanese believe in God. If the Japanese are an atheist, all Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples already die out. But there are a lot of Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples now.
Why dose Japanese say "I don't believe in God" or "I have not religious faith"? Because Japanese religious system is quite different from foreigner's, and most of all Japanese can not explain their own religious faith to foreigner. If you are a Christian, you can say "Please read the book, and you can understand Christianity". But Japanese have not any kind of book, and Japanese religious system is made from some religions and ideas. It is very complicated.
I can not explain the Japanese religious system in my poor English. But I can say about the relation between the Japanese and religion now. The Japanese think that religion is a tool. The Japanese keep Christmas, see the old year out in Buddhist temple and greet the New Year in Shinto shrine. But the Japanese use religious event for the purpose of enjoy. The aim is a enjoy event, and religion is a step to enjoy. Religious event has not religious tinged in Japan. And all Japanese can not understand why people make a war by reason of difference of religion. Because the Japanese think that religion is only a tool.
Of course I know why people make a war by reason of difference of religion. But most of all Japanese can not understand. But it is not caused by ignorance of the Japanese. It is caused by difference of thinking about religion.
I visit my family's grave in Buddhist temple, but I'm not a Buddhist. I greet the New Year in Shinto shrine, but I'm not a Shintoist. I have the book, but I'm not a Christian. I want to read the Koran, but I'm not a Muslim. I like the Hindu myths, I'm not a Hindu. I know Tao, the Greek, the Norse ,the Inca mythology and etc... but I have not specific religion. Who am I? I am a Japanese!:D

NANGI

berean_315

May 3, 2003, 12:39

Nangi,

Thanks for sharing your input!

･ｸ･ｧ･鬣�ﾉ

Maciamo

May 4, 2003, 01:01

Originally posted by NANGI
Konnichiwa Minasan!

I think it is very difficult to understand Japanese religious faith. Because Japanese religious faith is very different from foreigner's.

That's a comparison I don't like to hear, because the word "foreigner" encompass to many, radically different people in the world. I personnally think it's a bad habit to compare "Japanese Vs rest of the world". Don't be offended Nangi, that works for 99,99% of the Japanese people anyway (even those having lived abroad). しょうがないね。:p

Are the Japanese an unprincipled people? Atheist? Complete rationalist? All of them are NO! The Japanese has deeply religious and most of all Japanese believe in God. If the Japanese are an atheist, all Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples already die out. But there are a lot of Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples now.

First of all, please don't mix up "unprincipled" and "atheist" for it is as different as "terrorist" and "Muslim" or "Japanese" and "kamikaze".

Japanese not atheist ? I would be bitterly disappointed if it were true. Fortunately, the hundred or so Japanese with whom I've talked about this seem to be atheist, don7t careabout religion or animist (believing in "kami", but that's more a sign of superstition than religiousness) . In this respect, Japanese are very similar to Chinese, who can be Taoist, Buddhist and Confucianist (not a religion, though) at the same time. That already contradict your first statement above ("Because Japanese religious faith is very different from foreigner's", but aren't Chinese foreigners to you ?)

Why dose Japanese say "I don't believe in God" or "I have not religious faith"? Because Japanese religious system is quite different from foreigner's, and most of all Japanese can not explain their own religious faith to foreigner. If you are a Christian, you can say "Please read the book, and you can understand Christianity". But Japanese have not any kind of book, and Japanese religious system is made from some religions and ideas. It is very complicated.

Why is it complicated ? Most Westerners nowadays (especially among the young) aren't exactly sure what they are or what to believe in. It's often embarassing for a European to say if they are really Christian or not, as most people don't attend church, never read the Bible and are even persuaded most of it is rubbish, but still feel a need to believe in some kind of God... when they are in difficulty. That's very similar to the Japanese throwing a coin at the temple before the exams or a job interview. But of course some people are really religious and others convinced atheist.

The Japanese think that religion is a tool. The Japanese keep Christmas, see the old year out in Buddhist temple and greet the New Year in Shinto shrine. But the Japanese use religious event for the purpose of enjoy. The aim is a enjoy event, and religion is a step to enjoy. Religious event has not religious tinged in Japan. And all Japanese can not understand why people make a war by reason of difference of religion. Because the Japanese think that religion is only a tool.
Of course I know why people make a war by reason of difference of religion. But most of all Japanese can not understand. But it is not caused by ignorance of the Japanese. It is caused by difference of thinking about religion.
I visit my family's grave in Buddhist temple, but I'm not a Buddhist. I greet the New Year in Shinto shrine, but I'm not a Shintoist. I have the book, but I'm not a Christian. I want to read the Koran, but I'm not a Muslim. I like the Hindu myths, I'm not a Hindu. I know Tao, the Greek, the Norse ,the Inca mythology and etc... but I have not specific religion. Who am I? I am a Japanese!

I am a convinced atheist (and the more I study about diffferent religion, the stronger I feel so), but in Japan, I often go to the Shinto shrine and Buddhist temples near my house just because I like it (I live in shitamachi, that helps :p ). I visit churches, mosques, Hindu or Buddhist temples every time I travel somewhere. I am interested in Greek, Norse or Inca mythology too. That may sound funny from an Atheist to visit religious places and even learn about each religion, but I am exactly like you or most Japanese people. That seems to confirm that Japanese are usually Atheists. Whereas religious people just believe in their religion and usually tend to reject others, Atheist justly see religion as a tool (to control people's mind, what they don't want). So Atheist can think more freely about each religion, get married in both a Shinto temple and a church, choose whether they'll be burnt or burried when they die, etc. But there is no need for them to believe in God, paradise, hell, reincarnation and all these things, neither do they have to follow one rigid set of rules inadapted to modern life style because they were made 5000 or 2000 years ago.

Mandylion

May 13, 2003, 15:15

Great discussion guys! All I know is that those Morman missionaries have got some divine being on their side. They ride bikes around all day in the middle of summer and never seem to sweat! If converting could do that for me, I would sign up in an instant.

Maciamo said everything I was going to say, so I will end with this; I think Japanese religion, like all others, is only difficult to understand if you look at it through closed eyes.

NANGI

May 14, 2003, 20:26

Konnichiwa Maciamo-san!

Japanese not atheist ? I would be bitterly disappointed if it were true. Fortunately, the hundred or so Japanese with whom I've talked about this seem to be atheist, don't care about religion or animist (believing in "kami", but that's more a sign of superstition than religiousness) . In this respect, Japanese are very similar to Chinese, who can be Taoist, Buddhist and Confucianist (not a religion, though) at the same time. That already contradict your first statement above ("Because Japanese religious faith is very different from foreigner's", but aren't Chinese foreigners to you ?).

You noticed a good point. You could not understand Japanese religious faith if you cling to monotheism. Yes, Chinese religious faith is very similar to Japanese. But it is a comparative analogy.
If you believe that you can classify the people in the world simply, an instance the European is a Christian, the Arabian is a Muslim, the Indian is a Hindu and etc, it is a serious mistake. Christianity has a lot of denominations and each denominations are different from various ways. And it is the same as other religions. Each religions has a lot of denominations, and each denominations are different from various ways. Of course religious faith is different from each religions, denominations, countries and people.
I said "Japanese religious faith is very different from foreigner's", because all people has own religious faith. I don't believe that Japanese religious faith is the same as Chinese one. The Japanese has own original religious faith and the other countries are the same. All people(foreigner) has own religious faith and it is different from Japanese.

Why is it complicated? Most Westerners nowadays (especially among the young) aren't exactly sure what they are or what to believe in. It's often embarassing for a European to say if they are really Christian or not, as most people don't attend church, never read the Bible and are even persuaded most of it is rubbish, but still feel a need to believe in some kind of God... when they are in difficulty. That's very similar to the Japanese throwing a coin at the temple before the exams or a job interview. But of course some people are really religious and others convinced atheist.

Why is it complicated? I ask you, have you ever thought hard about a religion? What is a religion? Why people cause a war by reason of difference in religion?
Attending church, reading the Bible, praying to God and almsgiving, all of them are a religious act, it is a right. But their are not a religion.
It is not a reason of war, the difference of the Sabbath Day, how to call a sacred edifice, what kind of sacred book is the best or one's taste for food.
The word "religion" means "the bonds between the God and man" in Latin. But the bonds between the God and man is not only a church and the Bible. It is a serious mistake that understanding religion by the doctrine and religious formality.

Religion and religious faith have a close relation. And religion has a great depth. It is the same depth as racial history. I can not talk about Japanese history easily.

Can you explain the difference of all Christian denominations easily? I think it is a very complicated problem.

Sorry, I don't talk about Japanese religious faith because I can not good explain in my poor English. But if you notice the truth of religion, you can find Japanese religious faith. Religion has a great depth.:bow:

NANGI

Maciamo

May 14, 2003, 23:32

I really don't know why you think that I classify people simply based on their ethny, that I confuse religious acts and religion or any other thing you've said above.

I have thought a lot about the principle of religion and its influence on human societies. I still don't know why you could understand most of the world religion yourself, but refuse that I understand Japanese religious faith just because I am not Japanese. What's more you are not all the Japanese people and don't know more than me how 99,99% of Japanese people really feel about religion, because you haven't met them and discussed it with them.

I know European people who say they are Buddhist or even Shinto, or that these are the nearest religion to their way of thinking. I know some people who are sure they are Christian but behave in a completely un-Christian way. So what makes that someone belong to a religion or not ? There is no test to become Christian, Shinto or Buddhist. If you feel you something, then maybe you are, even if you don't really understand that religion. Most Japanese people I've met have very little knowledge of either shinto or buddhism, and often can't even make the difference. That's why I consider them as atheist, even if they would sometimes say they are not.
It's impossible to become Hindu if we weren't born of Hindu parents, even being Indian, born and raised in India with Hindu friends and acting like them. Is it the same with Japanese belief system, completely closed to outsiders ? (it's not a real question, since I kind of know what your answer is going to be)

kirei_na_me

May 15, 2003, 00:38

Really enjoying reading these posts, guys.

Maciamo, I completely agree with you that it seems most Japanese people can't really explain what Buddhism or Shinto is and the difference between the two. I have my own ideas about them being atheist and their religious practices, but I guess I will not say anything, because I don't make sense most of the time.

This does bring me to one question that I have yet to be answered. Why is it not normal to have a wedding in a temple?! I mean, I know shrines are used for weddings and temples for funerals as a rule, but why is it like this? Buddhism is not only good for death, right?! I have yet to find anyone--who's Japanese--that can answer this for me.

Squareboy

May 15, 2003, 10:05

Religion need not be a concern, if you are a major christian, do not go to japan, you will only feel left out, let everyone believe what they want to believe, I do not believe in wars over religion because dosen't that defeat the whole point? Japan is Just like Amarica and Europe, you can believe whatever you want as long as it does not lead to violence, I am English and was baptised Catholic, but I would never follow it, a religion that tells me all my friends are going to go to hell because they are buddist makes me mad beyond my witts.

NANGI

May 19, 2003, 14:05

Konnichiwa Maciamo-san! Kirei_na_me-san!

I really don't know why you think that I classify people simply based on their ethny, that I confuse religious acts and religion or any other thing you've said above.

Don't misread, Maciamo-san. I never said that you classify people simply, the Japanese is special and I understand most of the world religion. And there are unimportant details.:note:
to return to our subject.;)

Japanese not atheist? I would be bitterly disappointed if it were true. Fortunately, the hundred or so Japanese with whom I've talked about this seem to be atheist, don't careabout religion or animist (believing in "kami", but that's more a sign of superstition than religiousness).

What do you think about the Japanese and religion? Is the Japanese an atheist? Well, the Japanese seem to an atheist. And I had thought that the Japanese is an atheist in the past.
Because the Japanese is not interested in religion. And most of all Japanese can not say their religion or religious faith.

But what is a religion? and what is an atheist?
Is atheist a realist? Science adorer? Anti religion man? The Japanese is not a realist, science adorer and anti religion man.
What is a religion? Buddhism? Shinto? Christianity? Of course there are a religion but are only classification of religions. And classification of religions is useless to know Japanese religion. Because Japanese religion can not class with any other existing religions.

If you(or someone) ask a Japanese "What is your religion? Buddhism? or Shinto?", I think a lot of Japanese reply "I have not a religion" or something so. Because Japanese religion can not class with any other existing religions, and the Japanese can not reply to you want. What is more, they can not explain their religion to the others.
But it dose not means an atheist that the Japanese can not reply their religion.

It's impossible to become Hindu if we weren't born of Hindu parents, even being Indian, born and raised in India with Hindu friends and acting like them. Is it the same with Japanese belief system, completely closed to outsiders ? (it's not a real question, since I kind of know what your answer is going to be)

Yes, you are right! Hindu(believer in Hindu) don't become a Hindu by study. Hindu grow up into a Hindu in Hindu living environment, Hindu parents, Hindu friends, Hindu teacher, Hindu society, Hindu custom, Hindu common sense and etc...
It is the same as Japanese. The Japanese has own original religion from ancient times. And Japanese grow up into a Japanese in Japanese living environment. Japanes don't become a Japanese(believer in Japanese original religion) by study. Japanese grow up into a Japanese.
Hindu has the name "Hindu" to their religion. And they can say "I am a Hindu". But Japanese has not the name to their original religion. And the Japanese can not say their religion.
Can you say "the Japanese is an atheist" by reason of the Japanese can not explain their religion?

We associate religion with believing in God. It is not a mistake but is not a all.
In ancient of prehistoric times, ancient people were full of fears and hopes for Nature. Because Nature bring about the disasters and blessings. Ancient people want to know Nature, and they created(or sensed) gods, spirits or something like that. They want to know the world, and they created a myth. They want to control Nature, and they created a ceremony. This is the beginning of religion. And it is not only a religion but also a science, custom, morality, common sense, thought and etc. All of them had closely integrated with religion and ancient people's life. And we call it "culture" now.
All people, nations, races had their own original culture(religion). And their culture is still in their deep mind and society, even the Japanese.

Now, we think that religion is a "religion". And we associate religion with believing in God. But it is a part of religion. Religion related to people's life deeply from ancient of prehistoric times. And it is the same even now.
If you want to understand one's religion, you must understand one's culture. Because it is impossible to divide religion from culture(of course "culture" include language, history, law, thought and all national things).

I said "I can not explain the Japanese religious system", because "it is very complicated". Can you explain Japanese culture easily? It is very difficult and complicated with me to explain Japanese custom, morality, common sense, thought, religion, history, law and etc.
You can know easily what kind of religion people believe. But you can not understand religion easily.

All people, nations, races have their own original culture(religion). And all of them are different with each other. There is not the same culture with Japan in the world.

I recommend a folklore to you if you want to know Japanese religion(and religious faith). You can not understand Japanese religion without Japanese folklore. Of course you should learn Japanese culture too.

Maciamo, I completely agree with you that it seems most Japanese people can't really explain what Buddhism or Shinto is and the difference between the two.

Why do you divide Buddhism and Shinto? Of course Buddhism and Shinto are difference religion. But both religions are unity religion to the Japanese and the Japanese can not divide Buddhism and Shinto from Japanese life. Buddhism and Shinto have very close relationship in Japan. And it is not only Buddhism and Shinto, a lot of religions and thoughts have close relationship to the Japanese.

Why is it not normal to have a wedding in a temple?!

At first, there was not Shinto's wedding ceremony in old times. Shinto's wedding ceremony was mimicry of Western wedding ceremony and was made in the Meiji era. Now, wedding ceremony is common custom in Japan and most of all Japanese believe that Shinto's wedding ceremony is Japanese original culture. But it is not right. The Japanese assimilate every culture.
And why is it not normal to have a wedding in a temple? Do you know that there is not a god in Buddhism. Shinto's wedding ceremony was mimicry of Western wedding ceremony but there is not a god in Buddhism. And I think that you can understand why Shinto wedding but not Buddhism if you learn Shinto myth.

I mean, I know shrines are used for weddings and temples for funerals as a rule, but why is it like this? Buddhism is not only good for death, right?!

The Japanese had has original funeral in old times. But Buddhist priest accepted Japanese original funeral to Buddhism for the sake of spreading Buddhism. Originally, the Japanese had has original marriage and funeral in old times and they were not related to Shinto and Buddhism.

You can know Japanese marriage and funeral more minutely if you learn Japanese folklore.

Most of all Japanese don't know this truth. But it is not important to the Japanese because Japanese culture evolve every year. The Japanese don't persist in old things and the Japanese accept every good things, even the other culture.

Now, distinction of Shinto and Buddhism is not make sense. Because Shinto and Buddhism are one(united) culture to the Japanese. And if go back to the past, both of present Shinto and Buddhism are not Japanese original culture.

I say again, I can not explain the Japanese religious system because it is very complicated. If you want to know Japanese religion(and Japanese religious system), please learn not only Shinto and Buddhism but also Japanese folklore.

Learning religion, folklore, custom, language, history and all things are fun!:note:

NANGI

kirei_na_me

May 21, 2003, 03:39

Thank you, NANGI, for your response. I get that since Buddhism doesn't have a god(yes, I knew that), and since the Japanese were trying to follow Western wedding practices, that it was better to start having a Shinto wedding ceremony where you could "swear to god" just as the Westerners also swore to their god. Thanks to you, I am now somewhat satisfied as far as that subject goes.

I was told that one of the reasons for not having a wedding in a temple was also because they didn't want to mix the happy(wedding) with the sad(death). You know, just like scissors at a wedding is bad luck, or the number 4 is bad luck. Which brings me to a comment you made in your post:

The Japanese don't persist in old things

I think that the Japanese do, in fact, persist in old things. I think on the surface, the Japanese are moving right along in many ways. They give an outside appearance that they are a very ultra-modern society, but in actuality and deep down, they are still clinging to very old and backward beliefs, such as the superstitions about scissors and the number 4 and many others. In fact, I was quite surprised that the Japanese have many superstitious beliefs. Long ago, I had the idea that since Japan was such a high-tech and seemingly modern and scientific society, that surely they would be realists and would've put any kind of superstitious beliefs behind them. I was hoping that the Japanese would be far superior than the US in this respect, but I wound up being kind of disillusioned. I now realize that a country as old as Japan with a history of a few thousand years, that things aren't going to change overnight.

Now, for another question. As I understand it from my other sources, something like the fertility shrines and other shrines such as that are not Shinto, right? Are these shrines symbols of the Japanese folklore that you are speaking of? The god of fertility, the god of the sun, the god of the water, etc., etc., which reminds me a lot of Native American religion/folklore?

Maciamo

May 21, 2003, 11:55

Superstittion is the basis of Shinto.

That surprises me that Japanese would swear in front of god in a shinto wedding, since they are millions of Shinto gods and the 2 most popular are Hachiman, god of war and ex-emperor, and Inari, goddess of rice. Is there a particular wedding god in shinto ? I don't think so as they also perform wedding ceremony at the Hachiman-gu near my house ("we swear by the god of war eternal love..." humm...).

What's more, Shinto wedding are extremely rare nowadays. I know at least 20 Japanese people who got married in Japan since I've been here and none had a shinto wedding. Half of them went to a Christian chapel without being Christian. The other half (including my wife and me) just had a ceremony/party in a hotel without shrine or chapel.

NANGI

May 21, 2003, 12:22

Konnichiwa Kirei_na_me-san!

I think that the Japanese do, in fact, persist in old things. I think on the surface, the Japanese are moving right along in many ways.

Yes, you are right! The Japanese don't persist in old(unimportant) things and the Japanese change in various ways. But it is only the surface.
The Japanese do persist in old(important) things in deep mind, an instance religion. The Japanese don't mind about Shinto wedding ceremony or Christ. Because it is unimportant.
Japanese culture change in various ways but the most important and deep point is invariable. The Japanese life seem to Western, but the Japanese is a Japanese.

Now, for another question. As I understand it from my other sources, something like the fertility shrines and other shrines such as that are not Shinto, right? Are these shrines symbols of the Japanese folklore that you are speaking of? The god of fertility, the god of the sun, the god of the water, etc., etc., which reminds me a lot of Native American religion/folklore?

Yes, you are right! Originally, the Japanese religion was a elemental worship(natural religion? believing in spirits? sorry, I don't know in English correctly) but not Shinto and Buddhism. And there is not gods as Shinto at first. (Native American religion is a elemental worship too.)
You can know the relationship between gods and spirits in Japan by Japanese folklore.

NANGI

NANGI

May 21, 2003, 13:12

Konnichiwa Maciamo-san

Is there a particular wedding god in shinto ? I don't think so as they also perform wedding ceremony at the Hachiman-gu near my house ("we swear by the god of war eternal love..." humm...).

There is a wedding gods in shinto, Izanagi and Izanami. Those two gods are very famous gods in Shinto.

Originally, Hachiman is not the god of war. But it is not important to wedding ceremony, the god of war or not. The wedding ceremony at the Hachiman-gu perform by the another reason.

What's more, Shinto wedding are extremely rare nowadays. I know at least 20 Japanese people who got married in Japan since I've been here and none had a shinto wedding. Half of them went to a Christian chapel without being Christian. The other half (including my wife and me) just had a ceremony/party in a hotel without shrine or chapel.

I agree with you that most of all Japanese hold a wedding ceremony in hotel or Christian chapel without being Christian. In fact, my sister hold a wedding ceremony in hotel that has Christian chapel without being Christian. Of course my sister is not Christian.
But it is unimportant to the Japanese, Shinto wedding ceremony or Christ. The Japanese don't mind formalities in wedding.

NANGI

Mandylion

May 21, 2003, 14:32

Greetings! As it has been bouncing around this board a bit, could someone explain to me the statement that there is no god in Buddhism? Without descending into a debate on semantics here, sure, there is no Judeo-Christian sense of god, though Dainichi and a few others come rrrreeeaaaallllllllyyyyyyy close, but many of the functions and roles westerners attribute to God can be found in bodhisattvas. Amida certainly fulfills a savior role (Jodo-shu and Jodo-shinshu), Kannon as well, and I would Shakyamuni, Daruma and others have achieved deity-status was well. Sure, we may be hard pressed to find doctrinal support for such claims in a few cases, but function application of Japanese religious belief (something else this thread is also focusing on) sees many personalities in Japanese Buddhism as being on par with any other Japanese conceptions of god. Also interesting is the ascension of text and words to deity levels (Nichiren-shu, Soka Gakkai) but that is for another day... As far as weddings go, getting married in a chapel can also be cheaper than at a shrine. Not dismissing personal choice, but economics also figures in from time to time.

Maciamo

May 21, 2003, 17:38

Well if the Bodhisatvas, Amida, etc. aren't gods, then Shinto doesn't have gods either. If Buddhism is a philosophy rather than a religion, then Shinto is just a gathering of supersitions. If Asian people are philosophic, then everybody is a a way. And if the average young Japanese ain't atheist then I am the pope. :sorry:
It all depends on what meaning one puts behind words. :p

NANGI

May 23, 2003, 12:15

Konnichiwa Mandylion-san!

There is a Buddha but not a god in Buddhism. But in Japan, a lot of people regard a Buddha in the same light as a god. Because Japanese Buddhism is Mahayana but not Hinayana.
Originally, Buddhism is the way to Buddhahood by myself. But Japanese(or Mahayana) Buddhism is the way to the land of Perfect Bliss with all people by Buddha(or Bodhisattva).
Sorry, I can not good explain Buddhism in English. But Buddha and God is different in the strict sense of the word.:D

NANGI

Mandylion

May 25, 2003, 11:35

Howdy Nangi- I think I see what you are getting at. Don稚 worry, I spent a lot of time on Buddhism in university. I agree with you, in the strictest sense Buddhist conceptions of a god is not same as the Judeo-Christian ones. However, it is important to recognize practice and not just doctrine when looking at the whole picture of a religion. While there may not be doctrinal support for Buddha as a god, Mahayana has certainly made the Buddha an object of devotional practice. In the common conception of Buddhism, no matter how much Shakyamuni or the priests would like to disagree, god(s) exist.
Compromise between doctrine and practice is present in all religions. Modern religion must allow enough wiggle room for practitioners� emotional and practical needs. For example, Zen allows nothing for an afterlife. This life is it folks. But you can find Zen temples and priests performing obon rites and other acts of ancestor veneration on behalf of their danka. If there is no afterlife, why do the spirits of the dead need help after passing? Priests do and say things to comfort their followers that don稚 always mesh with doctrine. A Christian minister will say 土our grandfather is with God� to comfort a grieving family. But what about Revelations? What happened to graves being opened and all standing before the seat of judgment? Fact is a grieving person wants to feel that their relative is in a better place, not entombed in some dusty grave, decomposing, waiting on the Messiah and final judgment. Same goes with the growth of similar dogmatic additions to other religions. There is the concept of god in Mahayana Buddhism because the people want it. Because it lies outside of doctrine does not make it invalid. Indeed, to me, such developments are critical in understanding a religion because they show the descent of religious philosophy from the ivory towers and into the hands of the people. Does that make it a corrupting practice? Depends on where you stand.

Maciamo

May 25, 2003, 12:39

Anyway, as most Japanese have the same approach to Buddhist deities and Shinto gods (and often can't say which is which), I'd say that for ordinary people Mahayana Buddhsim has gods. And as Hindu will tell you, Buddha (who was Hindu himself, not Buddhist :p ) is just an avatar of Vishnu, and thus Buddhism (and Jainism) is a branch of Hinduism, like Christianity and Islam are branches of Judaism.
More interestingly, Hinduism was brought to India by the Aryans from the Caucasus/Black Sea region. The original Aryan religion was a polytheism that gave birth to ancient European religions too (i.e. Greco-Roman, Celtic, Nordic...).

Consequently, we could group most of famous world religions in 2 teams : Aryan polytheism (Greco-Roam, Nordic, Celtic polytheism + Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism...) and Semitic monotheism (Judaism, Christianity, Islam + lots of new age sects).

RotaryPower

Jul 2, 2003, 11:45

I believe that Christanity will be the downfall of the United States.

Although I keep my religious views private, I feel christanity causes more harm than good, and is an ignorant religion.

I am glad that Japan has not been brainwashed by the Christian religion.

I have studied Christanity very much, and that is why I have such negative feelings about it. I have read most of the Bible and attend Christian church services many times.

Christians are taught that all other religions are evil and wrong. They are told that you will go to a "hell" if you do not follow their religion. It is a very corupt religion that has to scare people into accepting its ideas. Christianity also rejects almost all forms of scientific proof, and offers only childish explanations (like fairy tales).

I do not wish to argue with any Christians, I am simply stating my views on the topic.

Maciamo

Jul 3, 2003, 00:00

Hi Rotarypower !

I completely agree with you. Christianity, which is supposed to be based on the principles of love and tolerance, is indeed intolerant to other religion. That's this exclusive faith that made Bush say "If you are not with us, you are against us". Behind this I understand, if you are not Christian, you are wrong. That reminds me how crusades against the infidels, buring heretics at the stake and killing native Americans who didn't want to convert, all this in the name of love and tolerance. :mad:

philupthetank86

Jul 16, 2003, 08:04

I supposed i would be asking too much if i where to find an エホバの証人　in this forum, but rotarypower is right, Christendom has been the downfall of society and a MAJOR force in Babylon the great, they teach a burning hell fire, when in the bible eternal fire is used to illustrate eternal death, they changed the meaning in the bible to make the society more law obeying, in the early days of Catholicism.
There is 1 out of 578 Jehovah’s witness in the Japanese population, why? Maybe because they are the only Christians that actually "evangelize" and quote un quote "go out in the world and make disciples of all the nations" with humility. I don’t know but all the other forms of Christianity call them selves something that has relatively nothing to do with Christianity, Protestant, Methodist, and Catholic. But the Jehovah’s witnesses actually named themselves what the bible told them to name themselves.

ISAIAH 23:10
LUKE 11:48
ACTS 7:32

Not to mention, the only religion persecuted in the holocaust. For what they believed and not because of their creed.

jspecdan

Aug 14, 2003, 13:14

Hi, I'm part of a non-church Japanese-Christian group called Makuya (translates to "Tabernacle"). Anyway, here's a lil bit about it. It was started by Prof. Ikuro Teshima in 1953(?) after he encountered God at Mount Aso in Kumamoto. He fled to Mt. Aso because he was going to be arrested for protesting the closing of he eldest son's elementary school by the American government. Make a long story short, we believe in the non-church belief because having an elaborate church or building is taking away from praying to God. We pray and worship in our homes (in the US and Canada we do because there aren't many of us but in Japan, with the larger groups, there are larger rooms/buildings for gatherings). We aren't radical Japanese-Christians ie say we're right and everyone else is wrong, or not believe in anything else. We are actually a group that accepts other beliefs and tries to harmonize between all the different groups Jews, arabs, muslims as an example.. anyway, if you want more info PM or email me.

doudesuka

Aug 14, 2003, 18:17

Those mormon missionaries are elect! :angel:

I think some people take religion too far. Look at the radical muslims. They use Islam as their excuse to blow up their enemies. I know this comparison is extreme.

But, I think those Christians who shout their messages and disrupt people are extreme too. They embarass the other christian sects that seem to be traditional and reverent. I am not sure they are real.

I think you have to have a sincere heart and devotion to a religion to be real to that religion.

I think that some Japanese take christianity as a cultural experience and nothing more. I saw something before where gospel music became popular for some to sing. But, I am sure it has died out.

I do know that the Japanese Latter-Day Saints are very spiritual and devoted. They have a strong spirit and you can feel that.
I believe if you feel a true spirit that makes you tingle. You know that message is true.:happy:

doudesuka

Aug 14, 2003, 18:24

I just want to add that true christians respect other faiths and are tolerant of them. Because, Jesus accepts all people.
You can't be a true christian and not accept all people and faiths in the world.
:bow:

neko_girl22

Aug 14, 2003, 18:56

that's right that Jesus repected people, but he didn't hesitate to expose the Pharisee's hypocrital way of life.... perhaps we take politcal correctness too far these days?
anyway, I believe we can all be wrong... but we can't all be right :)

berean_315

Aug 15, 2003, 04:49

anyway, I believe we can all be wrong... but we can't all be right

Well said. This is true.

I just want to add that true christians respect other faiths and are tolerant of them. Because, Jesus accepts all people.

As a Christian, I agree with respecting and being tolerant of other faiths also and would say Jesus welcomes all people. Could you clarify about what you mean by Jesus accepts all people? We can be accept and be tolerant of their beliefs, etc. but it does not mean we have to agree with everything they believe.

I believe if you feel a true spirit that makes you tingle. You know that message is true.

Would you say that the message of Aum Shinrikyou was true when they carried out their sarin gas attacks based on their spirit telling them it was true?

Thanks,

Gerald

doudesuka

Sep 15, 2003, 20:15

Originally posted by RotaryPower
I believe that Christanity will be the downfall of the United States.

Although I keep my religious views private, I feel christanity causes more harm than good, and is an ignorant religion.

I am glad that Japan has not been brainwashed by the Christian religion.

I have studied Christanity very much, and that is why I have such negative feelings about it. I have read most of the Bible and attend Christian church services many times.

Christians are taught that all other religions are evil and wrong. They are told that you will go to a "hell" if you do not follow their religion. It is a very corupt religion that has to scare people into accepting its ideas. Christianity also rejects almost all forms of scientific proof, and offers only childish explanations (like fairy tales).

I do not wish to argue with any Christians, I am simply stating my views on the topic.

I totally respect your views.

I am sorry you have those views though. But, of course that is my opinion. I don't want to argue with you either. So, I will just
share my views in response to your post and that will be it.:bow:

First of all, I understand where you get confused about chrisitans being not what they are. Beacuse in the media, all we see are lip servers and no examples. Actually, opposite of what is suppose to be chistian. We don't see enough good christians. people are not perfect and that is not an excuse.
But, there are the same types in all religion.
As a christian myself, I have run into some pretty questionable people that claim they are christians. But, they were not judgemental and self-righteous.

May I ask what sect of the Christian religion you attended?
If they teach that you go to hell, they are wrong.
Those that teach hell,fire and damnation are just damning themselves. They are wrong!!!!!
They teach opposite of tolerance and love for your fellow man.

I am sorry you had such an experience that lead you to this view.
All I can do is wish you the best and God be with you!
:bow: ;)

doudesuka

Sep 15, 2003, 20:24

Gerald,

We believe that jesus teaches us to love everyone, it's in the bible. He teaches to love your neighbor and seek no vegence against your enemies.

Also in the other question you asked.

Maybe that is what the Aum Shrinkyou felt, I don't know.
But, jesus doesn't teach that we should seek harm on the name of religion. So, what they did was not good.
People that act in such a way should be held accountable.
I hope this helps your questions. But, I believe Jesus loves them regardless as that is what he teaches. Forgiveness.;)

neko_girl22

Sep 16, 2003, 00:38

But, I believe Jesus loves them regardless as that is what he teaches. Forgiveness.

That's very true and is an amazing quality that draws us close to him. but I suppose we should also think back to his attitude towards the Pharasees (sp) - He would welcome them with open arms if they turned back from their haughty ways, but in the end he condemned them and the Jews were no longer God's nation because they rejected Jesus.
We love our neighbour by sharing our life saving beliefs with people respectfully ;)

doudesuka

Sep 16, 2003, 08:02

Originally posted by nzueda
That's very true and is an amazing quality that draws us close to him. but I suppose we should also think back to his attitude towards the Pharasees (sp) - He would welcome them with open arms if they turned back from their haughty ways, but in the end he condemned them and the Jews were no longer God's nation because they rejected Jesus.
We love our neighbour by sharing our life saving beliefs with people respectfully ;)

He welcomed them and he also warned him of their ways.
They did not listen. They were held accountable for their actions,
It's kind of like a parent with a rebellious teenager who has caused them so much grief. The parent does everything in their power to steer the teen into the better path but the teen is held accountable for their actions. The parent still loves their child but realizes the child is held accountable for their actions.

There is only so much you can do to help people and you must do what you can to love them and keep loving them no matter.
But, if they keep with their ways they must be held accountable in the end. We can still love those people no matter what and that is what Jesus did eventhough they were condemed.

In the world today, there seems to be a trend in no accountability. " The devil made me do it " No one takes
responsibility.

When we take responsibility we can admit our sin and change our ways sincerely. That is called repentance.
Jesus wants us to repent and he warnd if you don't repent and change your way. he will not receive you.

I hope you have a nice day!;)

doudesuka

Sep 16, 2003, 10:22

Rotary power,

Christian religion isn't ruining America today, If you look at what is being shoved down people's throat in America, it isn't
christianity. Any mention of God is schools are a no no, no prayers, children who want to read their bible can't bring it to school. They are being forced to learn humanist ideas, evolution is the science being taught.
In the media, anyone who remotely opposes something immoral is called a fanatic christian or neo con. It's o.k.
Accountability is being discouraged because they promote freedom to do what you like as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.
Homosexuality is the norm and safeguarded under the PC agenda brought on by secularists in our country.
I don't need to tell you these things. If you look around at all the pain in the world. It's not from Christian beliefs or anyone forcing them on you. It's the popular trend of secularism.

Christianity has been labeled as a bad religion.
What makes it so bad? It's how people exaggerate and make it out to be. In these last days if you believe, good will be promoted as evil and evil promoted as good. i belive this prophecy is definitely true today.

All the social decay isn't from true christians but from hypocrites who say they are for good but do opposite and prideful people who have their hearts set upon the riches of the world and not for their fellow man. Selfish people who take no responsibility for anything they do. That is the belief under which humanists and secularists promote.

I am just stating something that was on my mind and no way a
objection to you. Because I respect you for your opinions as another human being. :bow:

doudesuka

Sep 16, 2003, 10:51

Maciamo-

I was disappointed in knowing that you believe all christians are intolerant and condemming of people. Christian religion is teaching of love, peace and compassion for your fellow man.
Then you have people like the President Bush, Jerry falwell and Pat robertson who themselves do not tolerate certain groups of people. They are hypocrites. You must be able to not make such a blanket judgement on all christians. I like to take people on individual cases. Like for some muslims, I like because they really try to be peaceful and friendly, then you have the ones who hate you because you are a christian. that is their right. But, I don't say all muslims are bad people, because many friends are decent people who don't judge me.

I participated in my husband's family Buddhist ceremony in putting his grandparents in the temple vault. I found that to be
an enlightening experience. I respect his family in that way.
He supports me in attending my christian church every sunday.
In which all the people are Japanese except a few of us are from America, Brazil and Peru. We all meet together.

By the way, i am a memeber of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. There are many wonderful Japanese saints that are so spiritual and committed. They have to be to overcome such social obstacles that may not be very tolerant of them. It's wonderful!!!!! I love them greatly.

duh_hikki_zealot

Oct 20, 2003, 00:00

a beautiful verse that i'd like to share:

2 Corinthians 12
10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Elisabeth Elliot: "You are loved with an everlasting love." That's what the Bible says. "And underneath are the everlasting arms." This is your friend Elisabeth Elliot, concluding my talk today on faithful endurance.

Why talk about such an unpopular subject? If you've been listening to Gateway To Joy for any length of time, you've heard quite a few unpopular subjects. I'm amazed at the positive responses that I get from my listeners. Thank you for writing your letters. I do want you to know that I read them. You may receive a letter from someone else, the staff in Lincoln, Nebraska that handle my mail, and I am very grateful and indebted to them that they can do this. But they do send them on to me. I want you to know that I read them and I pray over them and I thank God for you. So even if I speak on unpopular subjects, you've written to me and I do thank you.

Now what do I talk about most of the time? Unpopular subjects. Why? Well, for a very simple reason. I take my cues from the Word of God. He doesn't pamper us. He deals with sin and sorrow and suffering and things like faithful endurance because He wants to give us the only true fulfillment, comfort, stability and joy to be found anywhere in the universe. It is God and God alone who can give us fulfillment and comfort and stability and joy. He made it. He knows how to run this world and He loves us with an everlasting love. Please don't ever forget that. He calls us to the same tough course which He assigned to His own Son, Jesus, when He came to earth. Faithful endurance.

Did you know that there are more than 70 references in the New Testament alone on the subject of endurance? We might call it stick-to-it-iveness. The great Russian writer, Solzhenitsyn, as you know, was in labor camp for many, many years, a prisoner. While he was in camp, this is what he wrote-I find this quite startling, this first statement in his prayer: "How simple for me to live with You, O Lord."

Can you try to picture what a Russian labor camp would have been like? The starvation? The endless cold? Hardly any food. Hardly any clothing. Hardly any shelter. Forced every day to go out into that bitter, icy weather and work twelve or fourteen hours a day. Here is Solzhenitsyn saying, "How simple for me to live with You, O Lord. How easy to believe in You. When in confusion my soul bears itself or bends, when the most wise can see no further than this night and do not know what tomorrow brings, You fill me with the clear certainty that You exist and that You watch to see that all the paths of righteousness be not closed.

From the heights of worldly glory"-and you remember that Solzhenitsyn was a world-famous writer-"from the heights of worldly glory, I am astonished by the path through despair You have provided me; this path, from which I have been worthy enough to reflect Your radiance to men. All that I will yet reflect, You will grant me. And for that which I will not succeed in reflecting, You have appointed others."

I want to read this one line again. "From the heights of worldly glory, I am astonished by the path through despair that You have provided me." Is some listener walking a pathway of despair? Can you believe that God provided that path for you? As Solzhenitsyn says, "This path from which I have been worthy enough to reflect Your radiance to men."

I have seen the radiant reflection of Christ in a number of people who have walked the path of despair-people who have found that-in the midst of the darkest night and the hottest fire and the deepest water-the presence of God. Endurance.

Suffering makes pleasure more poignant. That is, perhaps, an explanation of the endless pursuit of sports. You do have to suffer to a certain degree, don't you, if you're really going to play a strenuous kind of sport. But it is that very suffering, that very pushing yourself, that endurance which makes pleasure more poignant.

If we would come at the lessons in endurance, as valiantly and as eagerly as we watch those who are enduring the crossing of the Antarctic ice, for example, how simply we would view our own hardships. "For the joy that was set before Him." For the joy, He endured the cross.

I have made a little list in my notebook of some of the passages about endurance. It would be worth your while to study them. 2 Corinthians 1:7: "If we ourselves have been comforted, we know how to encourage you to endure." 2 Corinthians 6: A genuine minister of God, whatever we may have to go through, patient endurance of troubles, or even disasters. Being flogged. I'm abbreviating these quotations a little bit.

1 Thessalonians 1 has this one: "The hope that you have in our Lord Jesus Christ means sheer dogged endurance." Sheer dogged endurance. 2 Thessalonians 1: "You have shown such endurance and faith in all the trials and persecutions." Hebrews 12: "Eyes fixed on Jesus." "He Himself endured a cross and thought nothing of its shame because of the joys He knew would follow."

There are so many different kinds of endurance. We've talked quite a bit about physical endurance. The lady who was finding it difficult to take care of her mother, and yet as she learned the joy of Christ, she found joy in doing that very humble and unsung kind of work.

Well, I can remember the sheer dogged endurance with which I had to pursue an unwritten language. I went to Ecuador to do linguistic work and work with tribes whose languages had never been written. Oh, there were times when I just wanted to throw in the sponge. To try to listen to what those people said and to try to write it down phonetically, when they kept right on talking, and couldn't understand what it was that I was scribbling away in my notebook about! They had no idea what a pen was, let alone a piece of paper or a notebook.

There were times when I just wanted to give up, and yet I knew that this was God's assignment. God had put me there. If I was going to learn the Auca language, it was a case of sheer dogged endurance. One of the difficulties of life there, was that these people did not know that there were other languages in the world. Can you imagine that kind of isolation? They had seen Indians of other tribes, but generally they had killed the ones they saw. They had never sat down and had a conversation, or tried to have a conversation, because of course their language was totally different.

People sometimes ask me if it was dialects that I worked on. No. It was languages. The Auca language was as different from English as Chinese is from Greek. So God was pushing me all the time to say, "Stick with it. Endure. Don't give up. Don't throw in the sponge."

How well I remember Dr. Edmond, who was President of Wheaton College when I was a student there. I don't know how many times in those years I heard Dr. Edmond say, "It's always too soon to quit."

The prophets of the Old Testament give us an example of patient endurance in suffering. They were called blessed. Revelation speaks of the faithful endurance to which Jesus calls us. Maybe you're in a church and you're beginning to suspect that you're in the wrong church. If it's because of the doctrine or the way things are done officially in the church, maybe you need to give it some serious thought. If it's because of somebody that you find it difficult to get along with and you'd rather just pull out of the church and go somewhere where people are nice, I would strongly urge you to endure.

The endurance of the saints is spoken of in Revelation 14--those who are now without fault before the throne of God. Peter says, "Since Christ had to suffer physically for you, you must fortify yourselves with the same inner attitude that He must have had." Since Christ had to suffer physically for you, you must fortify yourselves with the same inner attitude that He must have had.

I can remember the endurance of my six-year-old granddaughter, who was absolutely sure that there would be no way that she was going to ever learn arithmetic. Teaching her arithmetic was sheer dogged endurance for my daughter Valerie. Learning two and two makes four was, for Christiana, sheer dogged endurance.

It doesn't have to be something big and dramatic, but it is a spiritual test. So I ask you today, "Will you trust God? Will you love Him? Will you stick with Him? And as far as you can, learn the message that He is trying to get across to you and keep on enduring?"

"The Lord God will help me; therefore, shall I not be confounded. Therefore, have I set my face like a flint and I know that I shall not be ashamed."

doudesuka

Oct 20, 2003, 08:09

That was a cool message you shared.

That is true that the savior doesn't pamper us, he doesn't go along with man's every whim and trendy ideas that society adopts. He gives us freagency to do what we want but we must
accept the coincidences that may follow.

He loves us no matter what we do but he is disappointed when we follow the wrong path. he gives us repentance and baptism.
He gives us 10 easy rules to follow in life.

We must follow him to receive true happiness.
Things of the world give us only temporary happiness but then we want more. If we have true happiness we don't crave all
those things that mark our worldly status. because we are happy knowing him in our heart.

Keep up the good message!:)

duh_hikki_zealot

Oct 22, 2003, 21:55

Love at Last by C. H. Spurgeon

"The love of the Lord."

--Hosea 3:1

Believer, look back through all thine experience, and think of the way whereby the Lord thy God has led thee in the wilderness, and how He hath fed and clothed thee every day--how He hath borne with thine ill manners--how He hath put up with all thy murmurings, and all thy longings after the flesh-pots of Egypt--how He has opened the rock to supply thee, and fed thee with manna that came down from heaven. Think of how His grace has been sufficient for thee in all thy troubles--how His blood has been a pardon to thee in all thy sins--how His rod and His staff have comforted thee. When thou hast thus looked back upon the love of the Lord, then let faith survey His love in the future, for remember that Christ's covenant and blood have something more in them than the past. He who has loved thee and pardoned thee, shall never cease to love and pardon. He is Alpha, and He shall be Omega also: He is first, and He shall be last.

Therefore, bethink thee, when thou shalt pass through the valley of the shadow of death, thou needest fear no evil, for He is with thee. When thou shalt stand in the cold floods of Jordan, thou needest not fear, for death cannot separate thee from His love; and when thou shalt come into the mysteries of eternity thou needest not tremble, "For I am persuaded, that neither death; nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Now, soul, is not thy love refreshed? Does not this make thee love Jesus? Doth not a flight through illimitable plains of the ether of love inflame thy heart and compel thee to delight thyself in the Lord thy God? Surely as we meditate on "the love of the Lord," our hearts burn within us, and we long to love Him more.

doudesuka

Oct 23, 2003, 07:57

yes, that is true. The person must demostrate faith and obedience on their part.:smile:

traveljapan

Nov 20, 2003, 11:17

Hi,
These are all very good posts. My nephew is in Japan as a Christian missionary. He has commented on how friendly and open everyone has been to hearing about Christ.

I believe what turns off and confuses people about Christianity is through a church they may have attended at some point in the past that pushed a fire and brimstone, fear approach. Also, evolution is still taught in schools (which requires more of a giant suspension of belief than any reasoning out there). It is heartening to see in recent years where leading scientists and astronomers are now voicing that they believe that there is a God, a force, that created the Universe. There is no other explanation for how atoms, molecules, space dust, could have randomly formed human life and the Universe. Ever studied human physiology? The human body is extremely complicated in how it works, and works so well. That we could have occured on a random basis from space dust is insane. Through the watering down of values today, and the lack of responsibility, and the media condoning it for the money value, people get distracted from what is really important and true.

Through the Grace and kindness of God, he allows us salvation from a life of despair, evil, and our human sin, through Jesus, our Savior.
Once we accept Jesus as our personal Savior into our life, coming to him openly and freely, as we are faithful and obedient to God, he makes his presence known to us through the Holy Spirit in those who believe.
What an awesome gift!

:note:

doudesuka

Nov 20, 2003, 19:54

Traveljapan- It's great your nephew is a missionary here. I live in Toyota City, Japan. It's in Aichi. Near the big city of Nagoya.
I am american and I go to the Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The chapel I go to is almost all japanese members. They are very strong in spirit and I admire them for their strong will.

It's nice to know your nephew is enjoying his mission here and I wish him the best success. Also, the many elect Japanese that come into Christ's fold.:)

traveljapan

Nov 21, 2003, 00:53

Thanks.

He is in Nakano City. He's coming home for the Christmas holidays after being gone for ten months. Looking forward to seeing him.

Best

doudesuka

Nov 21, 2003, 08:08

Is that near Tokyo?

I hope Great Holiday Greetings to you all!:bow: :)

traveljapan

Nov 21, 2003, 10:23

It is about 5 hours east of Tokyo.

Thanks,
:wave:

doudesuka

Nov 21, 2003, 14:13

ratvideo

Jun 9, 2004, 11:43

stephenmunday

Jun 9, 2004, 12:45

Wow, great thread guys. Very interesting views. I am a Christian in Japan attending Japanese church with Japanese in Japanese with a Japanese pastor, two Korean members and one Taiwanese member. Japanese and yet international with all of us having the common bond of being believers in a Jew who is God's Messiah for all people, including British people like me.

To counter ratvideo's point, there seems to be good evidence that Christianity came to Japan at the same time or a little before Buddhism. Apparently, it was transmitted along the Silk Road that ran from the Middle East to Japan. I have seen some good stuff online (where :) ?) and went to an interesting exhibition on the subject in Nara about 5 years ago. Does anyone else have any info about this?

Hachiko

Jun 12, 2004, 12:12

komachi

Jul 1, 2004, 22:08

I thought that I would like to ask about some things from before .
How many times does the Catholic Christian of other countries do confession in one year?
I do it once or twice for a year.
Now, i only go to church for Christmas and Easter.(TT;{oh, Criste eleison!

Is the Mass solemn in your country?
It is not rare that fork guitar and electric guitar is used　on the Mass in japan.
Is this an ordinary thing in your country?
The Buddhistic rites is more solemn and mystical.
When I traveled Rome, I looked at the solemn Mass in the Vatican.
I was surprised.

i'm sorry to be strange English.

Jean-Francois

Jul 2, 2004, 13:42

How many times does the Catholic Christian of other countries do confession in one year?

I don't know about other country. But when I was studying at a catholic high school in the U.S., we were "forced" to confess every Wednesday night. When I told the nuns I had done nothing wrong so I had nothing to confess, my home form teacher frowned and shouted at me :angryfire, "It's been a week. Everybody must have done something bad enough to confess!!!" O-kay... :relief:

For grown-ups, I think there is no limit for confessions. It's whenver you feel like it.

komachi

Jul 3, 2004, 03:46

we were "forced" to confess every Wednesday night. When I told the nuns I had done nothing wrong so I had nothing to confess, my home form teacher frowned and shouted at me :angryfire, "It's been a week. Everybody must have done something bad enough to confess!!!"

:shock: :shock: :shock:
they (forced confess and teacher's words) sounds terrible.....

well...

There are very few Japanese Christians.
Christians are a minority in Japan.
There are more less Catholic Christians.
However, the number of priests is a problem more than it. may be....
In the diocese to which I belong, the bishop had said that a priest will not come out from our diocese for five years or more from now on.
It's ordinary that a believer distributes a holy body.( Of course, he or she was trained, and only distributes.)
Probably, in Brazil, there are many believers, so it is in this system.
In Japan, there are too few priests,so it is in this way.
A priest is always busy and it's difficult to find a priest which moves around.
Confession before a Mass may be not welcomed.
and also after a Mass, a priest is busy .
I don't want to interfere with a priest.
On the foreign movie, the priest of the cathedral (in the United States or Italy)
is sitting on the confession seat mostly.
I think it enviable. :-)

The situation of other countries gives me a fresh impression.
Thank you for reply.
Please forgive me my strange English . :bluush:

Genius

Jul 4, 2004, 18:36

if a japanese person is christian would he necessarily shun traditional ways of worship? it he/she didn't could he still be considered a "true" christian?

bossel

Jul 5, 2004, 07:24

What's a true Christian? I've seen US Southern baptists call the pope evil.

I suppose it very much depends on the denomination in how far non-Christian practices are accepted.

komachi

Jul 6, 2004, 01:15

Of course, the same chapter as Rome is read, in the same Bible as Rome.
The Mass approved by Rome is performed in Japan .
The system which a believer distributes is also accepted by Rome.
This has no problem of regulation.
Because this is not a Mass.
It's only a gathering.
I have memorized such.
(but, I can't understand that a believer helps distribution in the Mass
which bishops and many priests attend.)

well,
i think a traditional problem may be not a problem only for Japan.
i remembered that priest of Europe or U.S. carried out
strange action in the Fatima parish.

About incidents of the Mass , I know only the diocese to which I belong.
sometimes a popular song was sung in the Mass.
(Only thing of a few years ago I know.
Because I have not gone to the church almost for a few years.)
The old-man fathers of a local parish prize the traditional Mass.

Anyway,

I think like this.
"Only God and i can decide, i am a Christian , or not."
(this may be my personal opinion.)
And God refuse　nobody .

Japan is also Buddhistic culture.

"Even by the instruction of the Buddha,
it may become your egoism. Aim at escaping from all your egoism. "

Mostly Japanese people do not understand the Christianity , Islam,and Judaism
which also war under the name of God ,even today.

Probably,i think that Japanese people respect Christianity,
disappointment and contempt are also large.

nikki_the_insane

Jul 16, 2004, 02:51

What's a true Christian? I've seen US Southern baptists call the pope evil.

That's the reasoning for other churches such as the protestants branching of from the Catholic religion and creating their own religion. They hated the Pope and didn't want to go by his teachings so they decided to start their own church that was basically the same as the Catholic religion except for not following the Pope and a few other trivial things.

I think the catholic religion is fluctuating. During Easter many people were converted Catholic in the U.S. but also a lot of people leave the church because of some scandals that have arisened. I'm Catholic because of my family, but we rarely go to church once or twice a month. I'm not sure if I believe in everything my church teaches, but I know that I don't always have to go to church to be saved. Though that might be my personal opinion. :-)

I think someone posted that Christianity in Asia was horrible and shouldn't be tought there. I don't think that's neccesarily the case. Everyone should have their choice of what they want to believe in, whether that be God, Buddha or a cow.

One question; is there catholic schools in Japan? Or any other christian schools for that matter.

I know here in Utah if your from out of country and your LDS you get treated special with nice hefty scholarships from Brigham Young University. In fact if your any type of minority and you're LDS you get a nice scholarship. Wow, I'm screwed over for school aren't I? I'm not LDS, I can't barely pass as a minority because I'm only a fourth french and a fourth Nicaraguian and it really doesn't show. My only chance is that I'm a first generation college student.

I wonder if Christians or Buddhist that aren't from Japan get the same treatment if they go to college in Japan.

Foxtrot Uniform

Jul 16, 2004, 03:21

One question; is there catholic schools in Japan? Or any other christian schools for that matter.

The answer to that is yes. I actually go to a Catholic school, called Marist and I think theres are a few more Catholic schools in Tokyo, like Sacred Heart, and some other ones that I forgot the name to.

Even though I go to a Catholic school, I am an atheist and a bit on the anti-religious sides. All the japanese students who go to the same school as I do are 99% non-Christian. At my school, there are actually very few students who are actually Catholic. The only Catholic I know of who is my friend is from Indonesia.

There seems to be many more Protestants that Catholics in Japan, and more than once has the peace of my home been disturbed by Mormons and Jehovah's Witness trying to convert me and ny neighbors, but they are not half as annoying as the @#$%ing soka-gakai!!

nikki_the_insane

Jul 16, 2004, 03:40

There seems to be many more Protestants that Catholics in Japan, and more than once has the peace of my home been disturbed by Mormons and Jehovah's Witness trying to convert me and ny neighbors, but they are not half as annoying as the @#$%ing soka-gakai!!

Protestants seem to make more of an effort than Catholics when they try to seek new members. But not as much as Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. I live in Utah (Mormon Country) and they bothered us before we had even fully moved in. We told them we weren't Mormon and that we were Catholic and they left us alone after that. Any missionaires or other mormons in the area know we aren't LDS and they're good about it and they're all good friends to us and such. It's those ones from out of town or out of state that come knocking at the door. Yesterday two of them came to my door trying to preach about families. Hey, it's cool how they're trying to keep families and stuff together but our church talks about that stuff too so they need to shove it and go preach to their own members.

bossel

Jul 16, 2004, 09:46

They hated the Pope and didn't want to go by his teachings so they decided to start their own church that was basically the same as the Catholic religion except for not following the Pope and a few other trivial things.
I don't know if they hated the pope so much, maybe. But one of the main reasons for the split was one of those trivial things: selling of indulgences.

Mandylion

Jul 16, 2004, 10:00

First, kudos to everyone on this thread who did not respond to ratvideo's trolling. Notice he/she only posted once. When nobody got mad, our late troll decided to go elsewhere. Nobody needed to be banned, nobody needed to be warned. That is exactly how these things are supposed to work! Great job guys.

if a japanese person is christian would he necessarily shun traditional ways of worship? it he/she didn't could he still be considered a "true" christian?

I have had a number of discussions with Japanese Christians on this point. They all seem to wiggle on this one quite a bit. On one side, most of the people I have spoken with say they really shouldn't be going to shrines and praying at Buddhist temples on occassions like obon (festival of the dead) but that they feel a familial duty to do so. Others in their family might not be Christian, and shunning the family for the sake of their own beliefs is not something most want to do - to them, such actions are very selfish and disrespectful.

They say that when custom dictates, they will participate in Buddhist or Shinto rites, but otherwise avoid them. Also, no church could hope to keep the pews filled if they said people could never again go to pray for their grandparents or attend New Years or local Shinto and Buddhist festivals.

nikki_the_insane

Jul 21, 2004, 11:20

First, kudos to everyone on this thread who did not respond to ratvideo's trolling. Notice he/she only posted once. When nobody got mad, our late troll decided to go elsewhere. Nobody needed to be banned, nobody needed to be warned. That is exactly how these things are supposed to work! Great job guys.

I have had a number of discussions with Japanese Christians on this point. They all seem to wiggle on this one quite a bit. On one side, most of the people I have spoken with say they really shouldn't be going to shrines and praying at Buddhist temples on occassions like obon (festival of the dead) but that they feel a familial duty to do so. Others in their family might not be Christian, and shunning the family for the sake of their own beliefs is not something most want to do - to them, such actions are very selfish and disrespectful.

They say that when custom dictates, they will participate in Buddhist or Shinto rites, but otherwise avoid them. Also, no church could hope to keep the pews filled if they said people could never again go to pray for their grandparents or attend New Years or local Shinto and Buddhist festivals.

I guess it falls under what family traditions you'd like to uphold. Sure you may have become a different religion but there are still those family traditions that go way back that you just can't drop like that. I can understand them going to festivals with their family members that are still Buddhist or Shinto. I don't think there's anything wrong with that and I'm sure their new religion won't be worried about them practicing traditions.

jieshi

Jul 21, 2004, 14:06

nikki_the_insane

Jul 22, 2004, 09:33

i myself am a christian. What you guys have been saying about these fanatics is quite true. Screaming through loud speakers about weird things like jesus being reborn in ginza is what we would maybe call a cult. Also you need to repsect other religions so people not wanting to set foot in a temple of their country is a little bit wrong you need to be able to accept. also knowing about other religions is important. Especially if you need to back your religion up and you dont have an excuse to mouth off about another religion if you dont know a thing about it or understand its perspective

There are so many religions that it's hard to read up on all of them. It sooo much easier just to make stuff up as you go along! XD Just kidding.

I try to learn about different religions but it just isn't something I'm really into. I like my religion, they aren't pushy, and I believe in God. That's as religious as I really get. :P

Legato

Aug 12, 2004, 16:13

I know that might not be the right place but when I asked about that on the anime forum I couldn't get a satisfying answer so I ask again. Obviously the christian population in Japan is very small, yet in animes you can see many references to the christian religion (crucifix, christian names, churches, angel...) If it's not a wide spread religion why use it in something purely Japanese, although it also reaches occidental market? Here is the original post:http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10598
I hope I can get some answer here, please

60Yen

Aug 13, 2004, 21:35

Ok, christianity in japan should not exist at all. christianity should not exist in any asian countries. only buddhism should exist. europeans corrupted the japanese, and later japanese invades china. dont follow european teachings
I call that nonsense. I think everyone has to believe whatever they feel atracted to. If it's Christianity, Buddism or Islam, I don't care. But they should have respect for other people. If that happens, it's ok to me. My parents are Christians, fine, that's their choice. I don't know yet, I'm 16 years old now and I can't make a choice about that. My parents don't force me to be Christian, they think it should be a choice of myself.

If there are Japanese people who want to be Christian, it's their choice. It's not a way of corrupting. Just as you could be a Buddist, a Japanese person could be Christian. I see it as a right to believe whatever you want to believe and you should be happy with it. Now, I know it's not cool in Europe to be Christian, but I can tell you that many people have died for the freedom of religion. Be happy with it and Japanese people have the same right.

Trista

Aug 30, 2004, 01:44

Kei_Shugojin

Sep 9, 2004, 03:39

Well, here's how I see it. There are two types of christians. Fanatical, and tolerant. Although I'm not a christian myself, I was raised as one and my family is from the more tolerant branch. The tolerant branch believes that you should respect and learn about other religions.

Now, the fanatical branch. These people are like walking evangelistical radioes. lol I had a neighbor who I used to hang out with. He'd give me the Letterman list of why I was going to hell whenever we came around. And, at the same time, he was breaking the same rules that he had made up for us. The time that I finally got sick of it was when he made an oral sex joke in front of me... while my sister was in earshot. Let's just say I... reacted badly. He hasn't been around since, and I always turn my radio up real loud with the windows down whenever I drive by his house to piss him off.

In short, not all christians are annoying. It's just that select few, usually baptist. And, even so, it's better to ignore them. (although, if it seems like they're disturbing people, that'd be a good time to call the cops)

thanks for letting me get my 2 cents in.

God

Sep 11, 2004, 01:03

heh..............................................

jampot

Sep 18, 2004, 08:52

some good points.

Shinhan7

Sep 23, 2004, 01:54

I don't know if they hated the pope so much, maybe. But one of the main reasons for the split was one of those trivial things: selling of indulgences.

Trivial?
I think that is one of the most important points of religion.
And its not so much pope that protestants hated its what he claimed to be.
But, lets not get into religion.

I will never understand how somebody can really believe in two different religions.
OK, there are lots of people who practice different religions, and I understand that. But no one can really believe in two different religions. You are either a christian or believe in evolution. You either think there is one god or many gods (or everyone is a god, or we are all part of some cosmic force or...). And so on.

Also best way to proselitize is by example. I think that should be a definition of tolerant christian. They talk if they are asked, live a pure and happy life and so show by example that their faith is true. OK, maybe I didnt express myself so great. :/
Oh, and by tolerate I do not think about ecumenism. Ecumenism is something totaly different.

bossel

Sep 23, 2004, 08:05

Trivial?
That was ironic, commenting on nikkis "few other trivial things".

OK, there are lots of people who practice different religions, and I understand that. But no one can really believe in two different religions. You are either a christian or believe in evolution. You either think there is one god or many gods (or everyone is a god, or we are all part of some cosmic force or...). And so on.
Evolution is not a religion but a scientific theory. Some people may believe in it like in a religion, but it is not.

Since religion itself is hardly logical, it's hard to expect logical reasoning from believers, IMO. Hence there may be people who believe in one god but also in some other gods (there are always work-arounds for the absoluteness claim of the one god).

Kei_Shugojin

Sep 24, 2004, 03:42

Well, I believe that humans can never truly understand what created them. Things like the bible and religion are really interpretations of events created by humans, and such have inherrent errors. I don't really belive that there is a god, and I don't believe that there ISN'T a god. For all I know, there could be one god, several gods, no god but several smaller entities, some sort of energy force, etc. However, I do believe that there is something beyond death.

But, one of my main beliefs is that you do NOT try to convert people to your religion or your way of thinking. I hope that christian influence doesn't grow in Japan too much. I'd hate for that to happen.

openup

Oct 16, 2004, 13:57

Hello,

I know the population of Christians in Japan is very, very small (less than 1% I think). I would like to hear any experiences from Japanese Christians living in Japan.Well, there are quite a lot of Christinas around me. I've met several priests, visited their churches (catholic and something), and top ranked Japanese universities are actually Christian formed. For example, ICU and St. Sophia known as Jochi. I've even met Jesus Freaks in Japan.

So, the population of Christians in Japan are quite high, I think.

stephenmunday

Oct 18, 2004, 09:33

The Christian population of Japan is generally thought to be around 1%, but creditable research has put it around 0.4%.

Christianity has been influential in setting up educational and medical institutions in Japan, but I then in my experience, I don't think you would find many staff people who expressed belief in a Christian ethic in these establishments.

Buntaro

Oct 26, 2004, 11:57

Inuyasha-the-kid,

???

komachi

Nov 20, 2004, 04:49

In Japan , there were a number of cruel martyrdom up to '1870 age.
For example, it was persecution in 1868.
This is called "Urakami No. 4 collapse."
All believers of the Urakami village in Nagasaki , Kyushu were arrested (3414 persons),
and 664 persons became a martyr (martyrs?).
According to my memory,"the 1st time of martyrdom"
was "26 saints martyrdom"in Nagasaki , 1597.
Jesuit missionaries, Franciscans , a Japanese boy 13 years old ,and so on.

All of foreign missionaries became deportation from Japan, Japan closed the country.
People were made to step on Christ , Mary and cross of copperplates ,
in front of government officials at shrines or temples once a year during hundreds years .
People who refuse,they were killed with some cruel methods for make a lesson to people.

Christianity was told to Japan by St.Francisco Xavier on August 15, 1549.
There was also a time when St.Maximilian Mary Kolbe was in Kyushu as a missionary.

komachi

Nov 21, 2004, 21:00

I thought that I had to write these,too.

The ST.MARIA appeared in one of the persecuted young man of the Urakami village.
The missionaries of Catholic , Protestant ,they sent letters of protests to each mother country.
The anti-Christian edict was abolished　in 1873 (Meiji 6).
And the atomic bomb exploded right above the Urakami Catholic church on August 9, 1945.
http://www1.city.nagasaki.nagasaki.jp/na-bomb/museum/exhibit/exhibit_b02.html

The Urakami parish has most believers in Japan today.

bossel

Nov 22, 2004, 00:52

And the atomic bomb exploded right above the Urakami Catholic church on August 9, 1945.
Not quite correct. From the site (http://www1.city.nagasaki.nagasaki.jp/na-bomb/museum/m2-3e.html) you linked:

"Located about 500 meters northeast of the hypocenter, it collapsed and burned as a result of the atomic bomb explosion."

Can't see any miracle involved, anyway.

komachi

Nov 22, 2004, 01:44

"Located about 500 meters northeast of the hypocenter, it collapsed and burned as a result of the atomic bomb explosion."

thank you for your point out.
I forgot to add "almost".

however ,we must not forget that less than 1km is the "center" from the exactly point of an explosion.
because Houses of ordinary from the place which exploded in a less than 1km place became in pieces.
http://www1.city.nagasaki.nagasaki.jp/abm/qa/heiwa_j/record.html#a

Can't see any miracle involved, anyway.

It was expression which causes misapprehension.
I apologize to you and God.
They were my private comment.
Of course, I did not mean " an atomic bomb".
Much distress of the Urakami parish did not set the number of believers to 0.
I wanted to say that there must have been a blessing of God.

komachi

Nov 22, 2004, 03:32

anyway ,"martyr's blood is the seed of faith. "

The day which Christianity visited to Japan was "The Assumption of Blessed Virgin".
In Japan, Christianity is accepted "truly " is still about only 50 years.
i think Japan needs all of us,and all of your Rosario pray.
i'm sorry . i Corrected a fault description.
there are still few believers now,
i believe that a big flower blooms in the future.

THE HISTORY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN JAPAN
http://www.cbcj.catholic.jp/eng/ehistory/table01.htm

The APPARITIONS of St.MARIA to a young man"Yasutarou" who was put in "90cm jail" at last, at otome-touge,tsuwano in about 1867.
http://www.iwami.or.jp/tsuwanok/otome/otome.htm

Ciata

Dec 14, 2004, 20:14

Sorry, just gonna add in my two cents. one of the things I dislike is when people try to convice another person to join their religions, specifically when they target people who are easier to convince. I find that they do that quite a bit in Japan. For example, I've seen new-convert fanatics using loud speakers and just recently, people handing out bibles. This wouldn'T normally irk me, except they were forcing them into the hands of the people that went past the high school gate. So when us kids were walking up to school, we had people trying to convert us. :mad:

Dec 14, 2004, 21:19

I talked to a Moslem guy before, he said religion is just like fashion in Japan. Sort of an adopted way of life, but on really a profession of Faith. I haven't met many religious Japanese myself, so I sort of agree with him.

ax

Hakuen

Jan 7, 2005, 14:43

...Japan is a country founded on the ideals of Buddhism and Shintoism not European values and religion. Christianity is seen as a very narrowly focussed religion and this is why it is not widely excepted in Japan. Not only that Christianity is Eurocentric by nature and is not compadable with Japanese lifestyles--- the two views cannot be harmonized.

Moon Child

Feb 7, 2005, 15:05

It truely saddens me to see Japanese Christians. I respect all religions, but yes Western people do Push there ways and faith on others and expect them to bend.

lexico

Feb 16, 2005, 23:44

It truely saddens me to see Japanese Christians. I respect all religions, but yes Western people do Push there ways and faith on others and expect them to bend.Somehow your post reminds me of Job who didn't like it when his god wanted him to go the Nineveh to proselytise, his reason being it's such a good thing to give away to the enemy heathens.
But he does go, not without a struggle, and dies there wishing the worst for them.
His mission was accomplished regardless of his wish to fail.
At least that's what's recorded, and I was surprised to know there is a mosque on top of his tomb.
It's hard to make out the exact meaning of this. :clueless:

EDIT: I've read something about Nestorian Christianity Keikyo 炅敎 (an obvious confusion with the Persian Zoroastrianism) coming to Japan in the 800's. Supposedly several Mongol Khans, their queens, and even some Japanese Princes were believers in the Keikyo sect of Christianity...some say Keikyo is difficult to distinquish from Buddhism, or some say Keikyo influenced Mahanaya Buddhism, but the Chinese inscription on 大秦國景敎碑 and certain Dunhuang 敦煌 documents state clearly the distinctively Chirstian ideas of Keikyo. Incidentally, there were many Jewish communities and Muslim communities set up in the coastal cities of maritime China between the 800's and 1300's. Are there any records of these three regious groups in Japan during those times?

whenua

Jun 21, 2008, 21:20

Hi, does anybody know whether there is a 10% tithe obligation in the Japanese Christian organizations? My Japanese husband was baptized a couple of days ago by a Japanese priest in the Moscow river, and from now on he is supposed to pay 10% of his income to this priest or her church (if there is any at all). Is it a normal procedure, or could it be a profanation? How can I check? Thanks.

bluepilot

Aug 18, 2008, 05:54

Hey Whenua,

A lot of Christian churches ask for a minimum of 10% of any earnings (hence the term 'tithe' meaning 1/10) it is not just a Japanese Church culture thing but probably more or less universal in most dominations.

The practice of requesting a tithe is justified by Bibilical scriptures. It was a Jewish practice recorded in Jewish law (the book of Deuteromony, somewhere is ch 26 I think...) and eventually became part of the Christian tradition.

Some Christians are heavily opposed to this though

Religiously speaking, Jesus said (when asked about taxes) 'render to Ceaser what is caeser's and render to God what is God's'. A qoute which many Christians see as support for tithing.

Tithing is a religious act but above all, a choice. So I think you should tithe based on what you believe or think is right.

However, to ask for the tithe is not sacrilegious, it is biblical based tradition, although some would disagree (sorry, but questions of a religious nature do not often have a single answer.

If you have anymore Christianity related questions feel free to PM me. I am agnostic but spent 15 years of my life in very strict Christian schools.

bluepilot

Aug 18, 2008, 06:01

During my stay in Kyoto, I was hardpressed NOT to find a Christian church.

Most of the ones I went to were quite old fashioned (even by Church of England Standards)

I do not know about the rest of Japan but I get the impression that in Kyoto there is a slowly growing Christian movement lurking in the shawdows like a teetotalling non-smoking virginal white-dressed ninja

Oh, and I got gang-pressed by mormons. There is a mormon church near Imadegawa street quite close to kamo river

Oh, and at Karasuma-Imadegawa, just at the top of Gosho is a nice litle church which does early morning communion of a Sunday with a free breakfast.

You can say what you want about Christians, but they are always good for free food (yes, I am a shameless moocher)

alantin

Aug 18, 2008, 07:26

Religiously speaking, Jesus said (when asked about taxes) 'render to Ceaser what is caeser's and render to God what is God's'. A qoute which many Christians see as support for tithing.

I have never heard this before and I have been christian my whole life!
Before saying that, Jesus asked, "whose image is in the coin" (the coin had the cesar's profile imprinted on it). So this refers to Genesis which tells how God created the human in His image.
I don't think it is quite right to use this passage for tithing..

I'm not against tithing but still feel that I give too little money to my home church but often I don't have much money to spare..
Students are always the poorest of people. Atleast here.. :okashii:

I think about tithing this way; I have gotten very much good from God and tithing is only something that I can give back. When I give it to my home church, I know that it is used for good things. In a sense some of it also comes back to me because it is used to the many expenses the church has. Rent, electric bill's, gas, water, salary of the pastor, etc. Perhaps even to better the services the church offers!

In Japan I saw many protestant christians because I was there in an exhange program kind of thing with missionaries of a Finnish missions organisation and I mostly visited the churches of the organisation. I also studied the Japanese religions through guided visits to many temples and shrines.

I don't think, the people who criticise the outward behaviour of the people ,who have relatively recently become christians, see the whole picture and frankly I think it is pretty short-sighted.

I know for a fact that becoming a "reborn christian" can be emotionally a powerfull experience and often the people who have recently experienced it tend to be "fanatical" out of the sheer wish to share this revelation with others. Sometimes they don't think much about what would be the appropriate way to do it.
I do think that there is a place for speakers too and this kind of enthusiasm is a good thing! :cool:
The shinto shrines and buddhist temples have their own festivals. Should christian churces not have theirs? Although everything needs to be done with good taste. :relief:

Spreading the message is in the core of the christian faith and teaching (has been for 2000 years!) and without it something very vital is missing.
I still don't think that tryin to convert people is a good idea. It is brutal and even dishonors the beutiful message of the gospel. The gospel essentially is "good news" that every person needs to decide for themselves if they accept it or not. The duty and a privilege of a christian is to give these news to people but it is up to them to decide if they accept it or not and their decision does not alter or diminish their value as people in any way.
I have met people who seem to have weird delusions about this though..

I think the best thing is to just live your life as who you are and honesty tell people what you think when the subject comes up.

Someone asked if other religions in Japan do the preaching with speakers and megaphones!
I spent three months in Japan getting to know the work conducted by a missions organisation that has worked in Japan since the 50's. I visited a dozen churches and participated in their outward ministry and the only time I saw this megaphone style, it was by Tenrikyou youths! So it isn't charecteristic of all christian missions work in Japan.

Just some thoughts on the subject.
It's an interesting thread! :cool: