戻った

[Damicci]

今日私はフラッシュカードで新しい単語を勉強しました。私には難しい単語ですが、頑張りました 。
そして、この新しい単語で文を作ってみるのか決まりました。
赤い文字で新しい単語を書きます。
私の文法と使い方を直してください。
「外州から買いました自転車はアリゾナ州自動車分野にすぐ登録してないといけません。」
”Bicycles purchased out of state must be registered with Arizona Department of Motor Vehicles immediately.”
「今日の教室運動は漢字練習と話し練習です。」
”Today's classroom excercises will be Kanji and Speech Practice.”
どう思いますか。
ありがとうございました。

[epigene]

Hi Damicci,

I was waiting for undrentide-san to respond, since I don't have much time today. But I'll just give you a couple of important pointers.

(1) 分野 (bunya)
I don't know where you got the definition for it, but it does not translate into DMV. It is a word used to mean "field of study," "academic discipline" and basically "a part or branch of a larger whole." FYI, DMV is　運輸局（うんゆきょく）

(2) 運動 (undou)
As the first kanji suggests, physical movement is involved, so it does not apply to language practice (which is regarded "mental" exercise). Practice in the classroom setting is described as 授業（じゅぎょう）or 演習（えんしゅう）depending on how it is conducted. There is no exact translation for "classroom exercise" (probably because of the difference in approach to teaching).

Your sentence needs some correcting, but I'd say you have the basic structure right! :cool:
It's only a matter of making it more formal for the first one. If no one else comes back to correct them, I'll be back later.

Anyway, "yoku dekimashita yo"! :cool:
(You just need to check out the definitions a bit more closely.)

[Damicci]

I guess I should have studied more.
Thank you epigene-san.

Also that first sentence, I always have trouble with the grammar structures so I wanted to practice that more.
Thanks again.

[undrentide]

Ｄａｍｉｃｃｉさん、こんにちは。
日本語の練習がんばっていますね。
:cool:

基本的にちゃんと書けてると思いますよ。
語彙（ごい ｖｏｃａｂｕｒａｒｙ）と文法について少し説明してお きますね。


「外州から買いました自転車はアリゾナ州自動車分野にすぐ登録してないといけません。」
”Bicycles purchased out of state must be registered with Arizona Department of Motor Vehicles immediately.”

外州： though there might be exception, in compound the first kanji tend to modify the second. 外州 (though this word does not exist) looks to mean a state existing outside (or country for instance) - 外にある州.
Out of state can be translated as 州外（しゅうがい）. Another possible expression is 他の州（ほかのしゅう）.
自動車分野： epigene san already gave good explanation on this. :)
Alizona Department of Motor Vehicles is アリゾナ州運輸局.

外州から買いました自転車は　→　州外で買った自転車は
When writing a sentence in polite form, ます/ました is used only at the end of the sentence.
買いました自転車 is grammatically correct, but ます/ました within a clause sounds redundant.

アリゾナ州自動車分野に　→　アリゾナ州運輸局で /　に
Both に and で are particles used to mark a place, に is used to be static verb （ある, いる, etc.) while to tell where a certain event/action taken place で should be used. In your sentence I'd use で which corresponds to 登録する.
But if you focus on to which organization registeration is made to, アリゾナ州運輸局に is also valid.
I know... it is a bit confusing.
:relief:

すぐ登録してないといけません →　すぐ登録しないといけません
Must can be translated 〜しなくてはならない　〜しなくてはいけない
〜しないといけない is also ok though it sounds less formal.
In this "must" expression, verb is present tense.
してない is negative of した (past tense) thus て is not necessary here.

I have to go now, will come back to the second sentence later this evening.
:wave:

[undrentide]

「今日の教室運動は漢字練習と話し練習です。」
”Today's classroom excercises will be Kanji and Speech Practice.”


I think this sentence is OK, except just a few vocaburary issues.
:cool:

I cannot think of equivalent to "classroom excercises", so translation will be
今日の教室での課題は (today's excercises to be done in the classroom)
Excercise is 練習, 課題, 演習, etc.

運動 is, as egpinege san pointed out, movememt - physical exercise for instance.
e.g.
準備運動（じゅんびうんどう） warm-up excercise
運動会（うんどうかい） sports day
It is not always physical movement, though. It also means campaign.
不買運動（ふばいうんどう） boycott
解放運動（かいほううんどう） freedom movememt
反対運動（はんたいうんどう） campaign (against~)

漢字練習と話し練習です。
漢字練習 is OK for kanji practice, though 漢字の練習 would sounds more natural.
話し練習 sounds a little awkward because 話し is not a noun.
I might say 話し方の練習, just for example.
You can put them together, 漢字と話し方の練習.

Alternative expression is 話す練習.
Dictionary form can be used to modify noun.
In this case, 漢字 is noun but 話す is not, then it is better not put them together and stay closer to your original sentence -
漢字の練習と話す練習です.

The above is just an example, there are several other ways to express the same thing.
:-)

[Elizabeth]

漢字練習 is OK for kanji practice, though 漢字の練習 would sounds more natural.
話し練習 sounds a little awkward because 話し is not a noun.
I might say 話し方の練習, just for example.
You can put them together, 漢字と話し方の練習.
Alternative expression is 話す練習.
I realize it is a little strange, but is 話の練習 also at least grammatically OK ?
文法的には正しいと思いますか。

[epigene]

I realize it is a little strange, but is 話の練習 also at least grammatically OK ?
文法的には正しいと思いますか。
If you're thinking grammar "only", yes. But, it is awkward and vague in meaning.

話 in this case can be interpreted in many ways--from storytelling practice to speech practice (such as for people with speech disabilities). The choices undrentide-san suggested are clear and natural for Japanese speakers.

[Elizabeth]

If you're thinking grammar "only", yes. But, it is awkward and vague in meaning.
話 in this case can be interpreted in many ways--from storytelling practice to speech practice (such as for people with speech disabilities). The choices undrentide-san suggested are clear and natural for Japanese speakers.
Thanks epigene !
The context this would have applied in was a correction to 話し練習　
I received from a man I was clearly trying to engage in a bit of practice conversation. Why that was the first expression that sprung to his
mind I'm not really certain. :bluush:

[Damicci]

I was studying the grammar from http://www.genki-online.com/js/

and was on the last list of kanji flash cards. SO since most of it was new stuff i wanted to try making sentences with the words and kanji. I guess i didn't quite grasp the full meaning of the definitions. :bluush:
Thanks again Everyone.

[epigene]

I think making this mistake is a step toward greater improvement in Japanese, since you become more cautious toward use of new words. Ganbattene! :-)


The context this would have applied in was a correction to 話し練習　
I received from a man I was clearly trying to engage in a bit of practice conversation. Why that was the first expression that sprung to his
mind I'm not really certain. :bluush:
You know very well that Japanese is context-driven. Maybe in the course of conversation, the "hanashi no renshu" was used but already quite clear in meaning on both sides? It does happen in English, too, that a phrase or sentence that is not correct in the strict sense but is tolerated because it is comprehensible?

Phrases and sentences taken out of context are very often placed under closer scrutiny for clarity and grammar in forums like this--when they in fact are tolerated in real-life, spontaneous conversations. I think this must be taken into account.

Of course, formal written (and to some extent spoken) Japanese is exception to this.

Just my two yen! :bluush:

[Damicci]

そして、一番の文を直しました：
「州外から買った自転車はアリゾナ州運輸局で登録しなくてはならない！」
Is this better?

[Elizabeth]

そして、一番の文を直しました：

「一番の文」というと、英語の 「Sentence number one｣ってとこでしょうか。
「一番の文」というのは、文章には番号がついていると きにも、使わないでしょう？

「元の文　一つ目の文」などのほうが良いとおもいます 。:relief:
:cool:
　

[Damicci]

I suck at counting. はぁ～

[epigene]

そして、一番の文を直しました：
「州外から買った自転車はアリゾナ州運輸局で登録しなくてはならない！」
Is this better?
州外で買った自転車はアリゾナ州運輸局で登録しなくてはならない。
Is the exclamation point intentional or is it a typo?
You can use either a period or exclamation point, depending on your intent.

FYI, you could have used "ichiban" to point to the first sentence, if the two sentences had been numbered and certainly OK if it had been spoken rather than written.
As I mentioned earlier, grammar rules are stricter when written. :bluush:

[Elizabeth]

州外で買った自転車はアリゾナ州運輸局で登録しなくてはならない。
Is the exclamation point intentional or is it a typo?
You can use either a period or exclamation point, depending on your intent.
FYI, you could have used "ichiban" to point to the first sentence, if the two sentences had been numbered and certainly OK if it had been spoken rather than written.
As I mentioned earlier, grammar rules are stricter when written. :bluush:
はい、どうもありがとう。
やっと、それが実感としてよくわかったよ。:p :wave:
ニュース放送以外に、もっと話し言葉を聞くべきでしょうね。 :bluush:

「最初の文、初めの文、第一文」も出来ますね。
指でしか数えることが出来ないのが大嫌いですから。。 。 :D

[Elizabeth]

そして、一番の文を直しました：
「州外から買った自転車はアリゾナ州運輸局で登録しなくてはならない！」
Is this better?
Just a heads up that you might want to check on the translation for Department of Motor Vehicles if this is for anything official. This is embarrassing if it sounds somewhere out of the sticks, but here I come from :) there is a Bureau of Motor Vehicles (under the DOT?) and the Japanese is 車両管理局。:relief:

[Damicci]

I have always known it to be the DMV for the state. DOT it's self is government sanctioned, no?

[Elizabeth]

I have always known it to be the DMV for the state. DOT it's self is government sanctioned, no?
I'm not sure, but there are Departments of Transportation at the state level and
運輸局 would be the kanji for that (運輸 - transport). :relief:

[Damicci]

I see. Just always thought The state DMV handled anything related to vehicles in that state. But DOT was nation wide dealing with Safety requirements, Public transportation, Vehicle I dentification Numbers etc. Well We are heading off topic so, Thanks for the heads up.

The sentence itself was to sound official. I just wanted some practice with the vocabulary and grammar.

Lastly (for now) when modifying a verb to noun no is not required?
Such as 話す練習　hanasu being the modified noun.
泳ぐ練習 Swim Practice
読む練習 Listening practice.

But you will need 　の when using a natural noun
漢字の練習
ひらがなの練習
英語の練習

Is this correct?

[undrentide]

Lastly (for now) when modifying a verb to noun no is not required?
Such as 話す練習　hanasu being the modified noun.
泳ぐ練習 Swim Practice
読む練習 Listening practice.

But you will need 　の when using a natural noun
漢字の練習
ひらがなの練習
英語の練習
Is this correct?
The words you've listed up are all correct!
:cool:

連体形 (ren-you kei)is a name of conjugation when the verb is modifying a noun.
(As you can see from the kanji, it is a form connecting to noun = 「体」言.)
連体形 is the same form as 終止形 (shuushi kei) which is a dictionary form.
話す練習 : practice to speak / speaking practice
泳ぐ練習 : practice to swim / swimming practice
読む練習 : practice to read / reading practice

[Damicci]

I noticed i made a slight mistake.
It's the verb that modifies the noun. not vice versa.
Ok thank you very much, undrentide-san.

[Glenn]

州外で買った自転車はアリゾナ州運輸局で登録しなくてはならない。

Question: what if he bought it online, from some company out of state? In that case you aren't physically there, so would you still use で, or would から be better?

For instance, if I bought a book on amazon.co.jp and I'm in the US, can I say 海外から買った本です? I wasn't overseas when I bought it, but that's where it came from.

[epigene]

Question: what if he bought it online, from some company out of state? In that case you aren't physically there, so would you still use で, or would から be better?
For instance, if I bought a book on amazon.co.jp and I'm in the US, can I say 海外から買った本です? I wasn't overseas when I bought it, but that's where it came from.
Hi Glenn!

Actually, that came up my mind, too, because I probably would say that also in casual speech.

But, considering the need for clarity and what had been purchased, I decided "de" is the right choice that doesn't complicate things. To use "kara", I think you have to elaborate further *when writing* into something like:
州外の業者から買った自転車

I'd like to hear from undrentide-san, too... :bluush:

[Glenn]

Alright, thanks!

[Damicci]

I assume from this that から has to be used with a specific noun and not a general noun?

「カリフォニヤ州から買いました。」？

[Elizabeth]

I assume from this that から has to be used with a specific noun and not a general noun?

「カリフォニヤ州から買いました。」？
It probably follows pretty much what makes sense in English. I wouldn't say from in this case for what the context had not made clear....

[epigene]

I assume from this that から has to be used with a specific noun and not a general noun?

「カリフォニヤ州から買いました。」？

The answer to your question is yes, but used with the specific noun 業者（ぎょうしゃ）in my example.

So, the sentence you made will usually be interpreted as: I bought it from the state government of California.
カリフォルニア州 is used in Japanese to mean both the state as region and its government.

What you intend to say in the sentence can be understood only when both speakers understand the context in which it said but not when it stands alone.

[Damicci]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!

Now I get it. It sounds like the purchase is being made from the state itself and not a store or perons with in the state.

So in this case で　would be used to state that the purchase was made in the area out side of Arizona. I still have confusion on when to use に or で to specify "in".
川で泳ぎます
州外で買います


WOW I am slow!
Thanks everyone!

[undrentide]

Hi Glenn!
Actually, that came up my mind, too, because I probably would say that also in casual speech.
But, considering the need for clarity and what had been purchased, I decided "de" is the right choice that doesn't complicate things. To use "kara", I think you have to elaborate further *when writing* into something like:
州外の業者から買った自転車
I'd like to hear from undrentide-san, too... :bluush:

I feel the same as epigene san.

The difference I feel with で and から is
州外で買った自転車: I went out of state and bought the bicycle.
州外から買った自転車: I stayed here while purchasing the bicycle, have it transported into this state.
And then I feel like to elaborate about "from where", like adding 州外「の業者」から.
:relief:

[Glenn]

Thank you too, undrentide!

[Elizabeth]

The answer to your question is yes, but used with the specific noun 業者（ぎょうしゃ）in my example.
So, the sentence you made will usually be interpreted as: I bought it from the state government of California.
カリフォルニア州 is used in Japanese to mean both the state as region and its government.
そうですね。英語でも同じだと思いますね。ありがとう ございます。　ちょうど California state government　が　California　 と呼ばれますね。　
　
「から」といえば、カリフォルニア州 から買って、アリゾナ（州）に持ち込んだ
（もちこんでもらった）車のようなので、混乱してしま うでしょうね。:p