Shinsen Gumi- Heroes or Thugs?

[Yoshida Shoin]

I know these guys are real popular but I'm not a fan. I think they failed to foresee the inevitable change in history that was coming. They stuck to their swords when guns were obviously the future. They clung to Bushido when the time came to destroy the feudal system. More than anything else, Kondo Isami wanted to be a daimyo. They were tough and up their lives, but I think they were more thug then hero.

[Da Monstar]

a little more background information would be nice. Your post assumes taht everyone else knows about these people. But anywho you got my attention and i'll be heading towards Wikipedia now to read.

[nice gaijin]

There's a TV drama about the Shinsengumi. Are you referring to that at all, or research you have done on your own?

[Uncle Frank]

Wasn't that what the Last Samurai was about?

Uncle Frank

:? :clueless:

[GodEmperorLeto]

I know these guys are real popular but I'm not a fan. I think they failed to foresee the inevitable change in history that was coming. They stuck to their swords when guns were obviously the future. They clung to Bushido when the time came to destroy the feudal system. More than anything else, Kondo Isami wanted to be a daimyo. They were tough and up their lives, but I think they were more thug then hero.
That can sum up most of the samurai 300 years before the Meiji Restoration, when the Dutch introduced muskets.

[Dutch Baka]

That can sum up most of the samurai 300 years before the Meiji Restoration, when the Dutch introduced muskets.

I thought the Portugese where the ones that introduced Muskets to the Japanese, and not the Dutch...


a little more background information would be nice. Your post assumes taht everyone else knows about these people. But anywho you got my attention and i'll be heading towards Wikipedia now to read.

have a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinsen_Gumi

Wasn't that what the Last Samurai was about?

I think that was about the Byakkotai , (http://www.angelfire.com/anime/byako/byakkotai.html)can somebody confirm this?

[Fehrant]

Are we defining "hero" as a person worth respect or worthy of praise? Or are we going to turn this into an ethical debate of good and evil?

As far as I'm concerned, leaving aside trivial concepts of good and evil, I realize that the Shinsen Gumi, or basically most samurai, are the contrary of today's society which basically lacks any values whatsoever or determination. That, in a sense, might be worthy of some respect, though I'm not sure I'd label them "heroes" per se. In fact, the term "hero" seems paradoxical and anachronic in this day and age.

[pipokun]

Although Kondo was the most successful person to climb up the shogunate ladder from a famer's son to wakadoshiyori, one of the highest rank in the shogunate, I think the shinsengumi was just a thug even if the shogunate had won the battles against Satsuma/Choshu. They were good dreamers with Katana clinging to the shogunate, but I highly doubt that the shinsengumi would have produced a good planner in the upcoming era.

Japanese has tendency to show sympathy for a tragic hero without saying Mianamoto Yoshitsune, Chushingura or else.

[Yoshida Shoin]

Leto - I understand what you're saying, but the Edo period is basically one of peace and stagnation. The arts flourished but technology (at least military) did not advance. But once the doors of the country were thrown open, everything changed. People had a choice about what road they were going to take. Choshu restylized its army based on Western armies. The brought in the most advanced tech that they good get their hands on. The Shinsengumi thought Bushido would win. They (samurai) had choices at that time when in the Edo period they did not.

In terms of hero or not, pipokun gets what I'm talking about. Are they someone you would respect? Japanese tend to have a deep respect for this group.

[GodEmperorLeto]

I thought the Portugese where the ones that introduced Muskets to the Japanese, and not the Dutch...
Ahhhh, I think you are right. All I remember off the top of my head was they were first called tanegashima by the Japanese back then, after the island where they were first introduced.