Need assistance...

[kohlrak]

I'm learning japanese and am working on a japanese course project... Basically i am typing the lessons after reading lessons from a book. Then base the lessons on what i can assume from the lesson in the book. The problem is.... At this point in the book, あります appears. Well, i can't explain the verb... I simply can't find the infinitive form. It appaers to be some how linked with います while not linked with です in the same way. IN other words, あります looks to be a form of いる but i can't find a verb section that describes how the 2 could possibly be related, nor can i find where they are not related. Could some one do me a small favor and do the following based on the following conditions..?

If あります is related to いる explain how it got to あります.

If あります is a different verb tell me the infinitive form (the "to [verb]" form) and how it got to be あります.

also do me another favor and don't try to explain using kanji. lol

[tanhql]

あります is 'exists' for inanimate abjects,like table or ball. it's dictionary form is ある,and it's a group 1 verb.

いる is 'exists' for animate objects, like dog, eagle or people. it's group 2 verb, meaning its polite present tense is います.

eg:

へやのなかにつくえやいすがあります。
there're desk and chair (and so on) in the room.

わたしたちはやまのうえにいます。
we're on the top of the mountain.

[kohlrak]

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh, thank you... hm... Are there any more verbs like this that i should watch out for?

(v5r-i,vi) (1) to live; to be; to exist; (2) to have; (3) to be located; (4) to be equipped with; (5) to happen; to come about

that's what my dictionary program came up with for ある. Any clue what it means by "v5r-i, vi”？

[undrentide]

hm... Are there any more verbs like this that i should watch out for?
(v5r-i,vi) (1) to live; to be; to exist; (2) to have; (3) to be located; (4) to be equipped with; (5) to happen; to come about
that's what my dictionary program came up with for ある. Any clue what it means by "v5r-i, vi”？

Perhaps some examples would clarify the meaning of ある.

(1) to live; to be; to exist;
I believe this is already clear for you.

(2) to have;
e.g. Uchi niwa piano ga arimasu.
We have a piano at home.
Ii kangae ga arimasu.
I have a good idea.

(3) to be located;
e.g. Sono mise wa Shibuya ni arimasu.
The shop is located in Shibuya.
Uketsuke wa ikkai ni arimasu.
The reception is located on the ground floor.

(4) to be equipped with;
e.g. Kono kikai niwa sensaa ga arimasu.
This machine is equipped with a sensor.

(5) to happen; to come about
e.g. Tokyo dewa tokidoki jishin ga arimasu.
Somtimes earthquakes happens in Tokyo.

Personally, (2)-(5) are the same as (1) - possession, location, occurance, etc. all mean (something) exists.

As for "v5r-i, vi”, following webpage might help.
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/edict_doc.html
LEXICOGRAPHICAL DETAILS
B. Part of Speech Marking

According to it,
v5r-i Godan verb with `ru' ending (irregular verb)
vi intransitive verb

[kohlrak]

(2) to have;
e.g. Uchi niwa piano ga arimasu.
We have a piano at home.
Ii kangae ga arimasu.
I have a good idea.

Reminds me of french. "Il y as..." lol "as" is a form of the verb "avoir" which means "to have."

Infact, as you have said, all the meanings could be translatable to "have." Which is one thing i don't like about japanese language courses and tutorials. Unlike french or klingon, they give you what i like to call "babied translations." If you translate it as "to have" in all cases, you can learn a little more about the language itself. Babied translations cause alot of problems for those, like me, who are trying to learn the language more in the point of the view of the speaker, not simply port it to english. Which when you give it 2 or 3 meanings and then teach only the sentance format, you pretty much are making it a matter of porting, rather than a matter of actually understanding. Becomming fluent becomes much harder. I do beleive that babied translations should be reserved for language idiots, and those who are used to other languages should resort to the literal meanings. Sorry for my rant... I had to get that off my chest, cause i've been constantly bugged by these during my read of this book. I wonder, though, if you share my concern. lol

At least Klingon wasn't so difficult... Well, at least in this matter...

juHwIjDaq jIHtaH. (I am at my home.)

juHwIjDaq jIyIntaH. (I am living at my house.)

juHwIjDaq jIyIn. (I live at my house.)

qaghaj. (I have you.)

qaghajnIS. (I need to have you.)

and that points out the logic of いる as need. "need to have." I can't wait to see though how fluent speakers distinguish between need and have... Or any of the other many meanings of it for that matter. lol

[undrentide]

Reminds me of french. "Il y as..." lol "as" is a form of the verb "avoir" which means "to have."

Yes, French is much closer to Japanese in this particular expression.

I personally agree with you about some points.
There are may ways to approach a foreign language, and each method has pros and cons.
What you describe as "babied translation" might cause problem as it is an attempt to view and analyse Japanese language based on English language (and its grammar) and when the difference between the two language is big, it could cause difficulties later on (I mean when the learner is going on to the intermediate/advance level). But I also think it is more approachable and easy to understand for beginners.

and that points out the logic of いる as need. "need to have." I can't wait to see though how fluent speakers distinguish between need and have... Or any of the other many meanings of it for that matter. lol

Though you asked not to reply with kanji, this really need kanji to explain.
These いる are two difference words:
要る to need; to want
いる（居る） to exist (Though this one is usually written in hiragana.)

[kohlrak]

well, i ment for the main question. You can use kanji all you desire for the rest of this post for all i care. lol

Though, still... In the end, it's the spoken part that counts. Kanji may show difference in writing, but not in speaking. That is what i'm referring to.

What you describe as "babied translation" might cause problem as it is an attempt to view and analyse Japanese language based on English language (and its grammar) and when the difference between the two language is big, it could cause difficulties later on (I mean when the learner is going on to the intermediate/advance level). But I also think it is more approachable and easy to understand for beginners.

Even for beginners it is better. They must move on some time, and it'll cause problems in the long run. Plus, if you cram it all it at the beginning, things go easier and level off in the long run. People have a tendancy to quit when introduced to this kind of thing, regardless of how far they've come. Better to make them quit before you start, than to make them quit after you spend months with them. And for all those who are used to languages... The problem is, all the sources i've seen use this babied stuff.

[Glenn]

Context is a big help. If you hear たばこがいる！ you know it's the "need" verb. If you hear こどもがいるとうるさくなる it's the "existence of animates" verb. They also conjugate differently, which makes it easier to tell them apart. But context is your friend, and it will tell you about all you need to know.

[kohlrak]

Reminds me of klingon... lol I sure hope my course book goes over the conjugation of them both... What i hate is... "where is it/he?" Considering the book says you can leave out names and pronouns sometimes... I could just imagin the results, but i guess the conjugation would help in that case....

[undrentide]

Context is a big help. If you hear たばこがいる！ you know it's the "need" verb. If you hear こどもがいるとうるさくなる it's the "existence of animates" verb. They also conjugate differently, which makes it easier to tell them apart. But context is your friend, and it will tell you about all you need to know.

I wholeheartedly agree with it, Glenn san! :cool:

[kohlrak]

Indeed, though upon looking at that signature... I'm starting to wonder what the heck Mojibake is. lol Perhaps it should have been defined in the post explaining how not to do it, but oh well. lol I better not sit here and start judging. lol

[undrentide]

Indeed, though upon looking at that signature... I'm starting to wonder what the heck Mojibake is. lol Perhaps it should have been defined in the post explaining how not to do it, but oh well. lol I better not sit here and start judging. lol

Mojibake means gabled text, which somehow happens in this forum when you use both Japanese font and roman alphabets.
The post his signature indicate does explain it well - both when (under what conditions) it happens and how to avoid it.

This is just an example of mojibake:
Glennさんの引用しているポストには文字化けがどうい� ､場合に起こるのか、どうしたら避けられるのかきちん� ﾆ説明されていますよ。（よく読みもしないであれこれ� ｾうのって失礼だと思うんですが。）

[kohlrak]

I'd sooner call it "しゅうかい". lol An easier way to avoid it would be katakana for western names. アンベア for amber. But i just recently came up with calling amber 寿天希 cause it looks better... lol And, yes, i picked it for it's adj meaning. (even though it is spelled differently as an adj.)

[Glenn]

Why would you just as soon call it しゅうかい?

[kohlrak]

I really can't explain why, but "hideous" just comes to mind... lol I ended up wikiing it and jeeze.. you can'teven see the worst cases of it on these boards...