じゃ and では

[kohlrak]

in all the examples of the negative copula in my book, talk about じゃ and では... It appears that it's not part of the copula itself...


In continuative conjugations, では (de wa) is often contracted in speech to じゃ (ja); for some kinds of informal speech ja is preferrable to de wa, or is the only possibility.

The book shows that it's only used in negative cases, that says "all the time" if i got the right meaning of "continuative." So which is it? Or was it implying only in the negative continuative, since that paragraph was the only documentation on じゃ and では that I saw.

[JimmySeal]

I don't know what continuative conjugation means.

The copula is である and so the negative is で(は)ない, where は is a particle and is rarely omitted. From there では can be contracted into じゃ. But essentially, any time the particles で and は occur in conjunction they can be contracted, even when they're not part of a copula:

電車では、とうてい間に合わない。
電車じゃ、とうてい間に合わない。

[kohlrak]

Hm, well, no one actually said they were particles, that sets forth a whole new ball game... it'll be hard finding a translation for では though... hm... じゃ isnt' even part of the particles section of my course book (shows how crappy it is) so i'm guessing that じゃ is simply では only smaller.... Thing is... "contraction" insinuates that there is a logic of how では became じゃ. Since many contractions (i'll use english for example) like can't and don't have logic behind them. French for example has contractions which involve certain words ending with "e" (such as je and ne) remove the "e" replace it with ' and add the word. like "Je t'aime". So is there a logic for this contraction, or am i just getting the wrong idea? lol

(and thank you for replying, it seems my other topics are getting more attention...)

EDIT: i'm gonna assume that じゃでせん means "the manner of which it exists isn't" or "the state of which it exists isn't" or simply "it's state isn't."

[Bucko]

It's quite simple. The negative form of "desu" or "da" is "ja nai" or "dewa nai" or "ja arimasen" or "dewa arimasen". Don't try and dig out any deep meaning and you'll dig yourself into a hole.

I've never heard of "ja demasen".

[kohlrak]

It's quite simple. The negative form of "desu" or "da" is "ja nai" or "dewa nai" or "ja arimasen" or "dewa arimasen". Don't try and dig out any deep meaning and you'll dig yourself into a hole.

I've never heard of "ja demasen".

According to the book it's "ja nai desu" not "ja nai." Probably clipped speech/slang if that's how you hear it... Unless of course the book is wrong. And では and じゃ have to mean something, even though particles don't have a stand alone word meaning, their effects can be explained. Those explained effects on a literal level are considered a literal translation.

[Bucko]

"Ja nai desu" is yet another. "Ja nai" is the informal form, and "desu" makes it a little more form.

And trust me, stop looking for meaning from "ja" and "dewa". Just accept it as it is.

[nice gaijin]

you could say "ja nai desu" but it sounds a bit weird to me, possibly because the only time I hear that is when a friend is really trying to emphasize her (as it's usually a girl's) point, in a sardonic tone.

"Ja nai" is a casual form but way more common, and "ja arimasen" is the polite way to say the same thing. Are you familiar with the levels of formality in Japanese? If not, this might not make any sense to you.

[kohlrak]

I figure it to be same thing as the levels in english, only taken slightly more seriously. I did do a quick skim over the jref section of it... i should do a thorough read though...

[nice gaijin]

:souka: sorry, could you explain the levels of formality of English?

[Bucko]

English formality and Japanese formality are two completely different concepts. There's no comparison.

[kohlrak]

X'D

Well, there's the "i don't care" level where you don't honor or dishonor the person... There's the "tough guy" level where you practically "spit on" the person you talk to and are trying to insinuate you're better than them. Then there's the polite thing where you are slightly nice, then there's the one where you're overly nice, then there's the one where you're "kissing their butt" then even higher is the level where you're being too nice that it's considered rude (or mocking) and should be avoided... Reminds me of the levels of greatness in klingon.

[Bucko]

Fair enough. In Japanese you actually change many of the words to something completely different depending on the formality, and if you ever come here you'll see that formality is much more a part of everyday life here than back home in the States. The word "do" can take on the following forms (depending on formality):

- suru
- shimasu
- itasu
- itashimasu
- nasaru
- nasarimasu

[JimmySeal]

"Ja nai desu" is widely used, but not correct. If your textbook is teaching "ja nai desu" you should throw that book out, get yourself to a bookstore and buy Ultimate Japanese: Beginner-Intermediate for $12 or whatever it costs.

[kohlrak]

I got a preview of the formality thing with french, they don't have as much formality but they do stress "tu" and "vous."

*makes note of that* Irregular verb?

EDIT: Dude, not many japanese resources here... The nearest bookstore (over the moutain as they say) had only 1 result when they searched for "kanji." The result was "Kanji and kana" by "Hadamitzky and Spahn." I don't know what it is, but every time i look for japanese book resources, i'm always cut short. But, is it widely used amoung japanese people? May i point out that this book appears to be ment specifically for learning simple phrases that you'll use in japan, such as how to order food in a restauraunt.

[nice gaijin]

Fair enough. In Japanese you actually change many of the words to something completely different depending on the formality, and if you ever come here you'll see that formality is much more a part of everyday life here than back home in the States. The word "do" can take on the following forms (depending on formality):
- suru
- shimasu
- itasu
- itashimasu
- nasaru
- nasarimasu
it also depends on who is performing the action, and where they stand in relation to you (socially).
also, isn't the 丁寧語 conjugation of なさる, 「なさいます」?

[Bucko]

nice gaijin, hehe, yeah I was just trying to make it look more intimidating :)

[jt_]

"Ja nai desu" is widely used, but not correct. If your textbook is teaching "ja nai desu" you should throw that book out, get yourself to a bookstore and buy Ultimate Japanese: Beginner-Intermediate for $12 or whatever it costs.Yes, because heaven forbid a textbook teach an expression that is widely used, instead of prescriptively "correct" usage that is regularly ignored by most native speakers.

Likewise, would you recommend that ESL learners throw out any textbook that dares to teach such horribly "incorrect" English like "Can I have a glass of water?" instead of the proper "May I..."?

Seriously, I've never really bought into this whole argument that "nai desu" is even incorrect to begin with. Grammatically, it's the same part of speech (i-adjective, or whatever you want to call it) as "samui", "oishii", etc. etc. Is "samui desu ne" also 'incorrect' Japanese in your book?

I'm sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. If an expression is good enough for millions and millions of native speakers, it's good enough for me, regardless of what prescriptive grammarians want to tell me about how a language "should" work.

[Talitha_Cumi]

Deha seems to be more suitable in the business scene.

[kohlrak]

Yes, because heaven forbid a textbook teach an expression that is widely used, instead of prescriptively "correct" usage that is regularly ignored by most native speakers.

Likewise, would you recommend that ESL learners throw out any textbook that dares to teach such horribly "incorrect" English like "Can I have a glass of water?" instead of the proper "May I..."?

Seriously, I've never really bought into this whole argument that "nai desu" is even incorrect to begin with. Grammatically, it's the same part of speech (i-adjective, or whatever you want to call it) as "samui", "oishii", etc. etc. Is "samui desu ne" also 'incorrect' Japanese in your book?

I'm sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. If an expression is good enough for millions and millions of native speakers, it's good enough for me, regardless of what prescriptive grammarians want to tell me about how a language "should" work.

I agree with you there, man. The point is to learn "the correct way" to a point and learn as much slang as possible. As many students of a language say, "When i got there, i only understood 1/3rd of what they actually said."

[JimmySeal]

Likewise, would you recommend that ESL learners throw out any textbook that dares to teach such horribly "incorrect" English like "Can I have a glass of water?" instead of the proper "May I..."?
Any decent textbook will teach the correct way to speak first, and later will introduce colloqualisms, and will note that they are colloquialisms.

And yeah, it is possible to see steam rising from my head when I see books that delude students into thinking that "Can I, Can you" are the correct way of asking for permission and favors.

[kohlrak]

And yeah, it is possible to see steam rising from my head when I see books that delude students into thinking that "Can I, Can you" are the correct way of asking for permission and favors.

And the books that say "may" is the only correct way, are the books that are written by people who interpret "correct english" their own way. The people who speak english in general should decide what is correct. The difference between "may i" and "can i" is simply a thing conjured up to make some one look like they have more refined speech than another. I really see "may i" as a pointless phrase that is rarely used.

[jt_]

Any decent textbook will teach the correct way to speak first, and later will introduce colloqualisms, and will note that they are colloquialisms.I guess it depends on how you define "colloquialism", but I wouldn't really consider "nai desu" one. Do you consider "nai desu" to be the Japanese equivalent of "ain't" or the like? Because if you do, I would say that's an exaggeration.

And yeah, it is possible to see steam rising from my head when I see books that delude students into thinking that "Can I, Can you" are the correct way of asking for permission and favors.Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, then. You're clearly a prescriptivist and I'm most certainly not one. Countless multitudes of educated, intelligent native speakers say "Can I...?" every day without even thinking twice about it. I simply don't see the point in holding second-language learners to a higher standard.

For further reading if you're interested, here's an archived thread from the sci.lang.japan newsgroup (http://groups.google.co.jp/group/sci.lang.japan/browse_frm/thread/ce8204f7281483f4/ec0a902340196ad8?lnk=gst&q=%22nai+desu%22&rnum=2#ec0a902340196ad8) where numerous native speakers chime in to say that they commonly use (and see nothing wrong with) "nai desu".

[kohlrak]

I do hate how language courses often do that. Reminds me of the french word for yes "oui." Sometimes they say "ouais," but they do not teach you that in the text book. They never teach you how to insult, either. Not just school textbooks, but private use text books, as well. I personally find it annoying, considering the idea may be to not start an argument in the language, but at the same time, they're negating you from defending yourself in the language whileso.

[Bucko]

Don't worry man, there are plenty of text books that will teach you slang and foul language, and different dialects. I've got a book right next to me on the Osaka dialect with lots of juicy words.

[kohlrak]

But ever on a language course itself rather than a dialect course?

[Glenn]

I wouldn't worry about slang or dirty words until I could at least understand directions to the bathroom.

[kohlrak]

eh, but at the same time... i was pointing out that they don't teach you that. It's considered bad grammar, they almost always teach you "good grammar" which is done by their interpretation anyway. =p

[Elizabeth]

And the books that say "may" is the only correct way, are the books that are written by people who interpret "correct english" their own way. The people who speak english in general should decide what is correct. The difference between "may i" and "can i" is simply a thing conjured up to make some one look like they have more refined speech than another. I really see "may i" as a pointless phrase that is rarely used.
"May I please...." isn't more refined but not being as soft-sounding does bring more a feeling of urgency and selfish desire, less consideration for the other party, to the request than "Can I." This is something I'm going to do anyone, but please at least give your tacit permission could be the intended effect.

"May I" still plays a role in polite interactions or when asking for an inordinately large favor.

[kohlrak]

Exaclty... Which is what i'm saying.. Random people who people call the athority on proper english are deciding what is proper and what is not. They're the ones writing the english books. And with more and more slang, the static "proper english" becomes further and further from what english speakers really say.

[Elizabeth]

Exaclty... Which is what i'm saying.. Random people who people call the athority on proper english are deciding what is proper and what is not. They're the ones writing the english books. And with more and more slang, the static "proper english" becomes further and further from what english speakers really say.
Well, this is a forum on Japanese learning after all, so pardon the confusion. I both wouldn't erase "May I" from English textbooks or recommend beginning Japanese with slang. It's difficult enough to make yourself understood and comprehend with every other word a homonym and sounding like 10 others, trying to be trendy or cute on top of it will leave a very unfavorable impression.

Slang/colloquialisms/unstandard speech will come and go but as a solid foundation and ever-ready backup better to get a solid grasp of the basics before proceeding _any further_ here with recommendations for students of
ESL. :relief:

[kohlrak]

I would erase may i, since i almost never hear it.. Or i'd put it as a footnote. lol and yes, i noticed that about japanese... I would imagin puns are more common in japanese. Some of which are so common they're annoying. But that's just a random guess based on nothing. Too many words sound alike. I'm starting to wonder if japanese's vocabulary rivals that of english... lol

[Elizabeth]

I would erase may i, since i almost never hear it.. Or i'd put it as a footnote.
Could be the company you keep, too....:-) May I certainly is still used widely enough to be considered self-effacing and courteous so to not present it would leave a bizarre gap in the student's knowledge and English ability.

[kohlrak]

In a matter of 10 years we'll completely forget it's existance... the sad part would be that it would still be written in text books for years to come because it's considered proper english, even if 10 years down the road no one would use it.

[Elizabeth]

Over generations maybe, not decades....besides they'd obviously have to still read older material of which "may" is an integral part. One of my Japanese texts is from the mid 60's and there aren't any grammar lessons that I would consider wholly obsolete, only a handful of archaic words or expressions.

[KrazyKat]

In a matter of 10 years we'll completely forget it's existance... the sad part would be that it would still be written in text books for years to come because it's considered proper english, even if 10 years down the road no one would use it.

I do not see why you do not consider "May I" to be proper English. It had over 34 million hits on my Google search. That certainly suggests that it's worth teaching.


And yeah, it is possible to see steam rising from my head when I see books that delude students into thinking that "Can I, Can you" are the correct way of asking for permission and favors.


I would see any book that taught students not to use "Can I..." as seriously flawed.

[kohlrak]

I do not see why you do not consider "May I" to be proper English. It had over 34 million hits on my Google search. That certainly suggests that it's worth teaching.

Not used as much, but if i were you i'd check for recursive hits.

But "can" is a correct way of talking about permission.

According to "proper english grammar" it isn't. Thus why it's likely not to be taught in a "learning english" book. I'll ask my friend who learned english in germany and see if she recalls "can i?"

[KrazyKat]

Not used as much, but if i were you i'd check for recursive hits.
According to "proper english grammar" it isn't. Thus why it's likely not to be taught in a "learning english" book. I'll ask my friend who learned english in germany and see if she recalls "can i?"

Good luck finding a credible textbook that doesn't teach "can I"
Is "proper English grammar" a book? I couldn't find it on amazon.

[kohlrak]

Buy a grade school textbook to english... (Not another language to english, just english.)

[Bucko]

I use 'may I' about 5 times a day. What type of English are you speaking?

[kohlrak]

I use 'may I' about 5 times a day. What type of English are you speaking?

Well, they have different dialects. I speak the American dialect. And the only time i ever hear "may" is in the following situation.

Girl: Can i go to the bathroom?
Teacher: I don't know, can you?
Girl: Maaaaaaaay, i go to the bathroom?

Then you turn around and if some one interupts the class, you'll humerously hear them say,

Teacher: Can i teach my class?

But no one ever comments cause half of us get in enough trouble as it is.

[Bucko]

Maybe you speak a crappy version of American English? I've found that Americans, particularly from the south, speak using quite a refined version of English. But then again, those Americans are the ones I've met abroad so maybe they're different.

[kohlrak]

So there's a "crappy" version?

[Bucko]

Yep. "Crappy" is when people can't spell, have bad grammar, and use words in the wrong context.

[kohlrak]

That's quite a statement. It's such things that give color and colour different spellings. It's called, "dialect." And who are you to say what is correct and what isn't correct spelling...?

crap·py ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krp)
adj. Vulgar Slang crap·pi·er, crap·pi·est
Inferior; worthless.
Miserable; poorly.
Mean; contemptible.

Slang happens to come from this "crappy" language use as well.

[JimmySeal]

Maybe you speak a crappy version of American English? I've found that Americans, particularly from the south, speak using quite a refined version of English. But then again, those Americans are the ones I've met abroad so maybe they're different.
That's funny. When I try to think of an entire area of the US where English has been significantly degraded, my thoughts instantly turn to the American South.

[kohlrak]

That's funny. When I try to think of an entire area of the US where English has been significantly degraded, my thoughts instantly turn to the American South.

I could think of examples of what some people would consider bad english that came from the south, but then not only would i be a hyprocite, but at the same time i'd be makin' fun of the south, of which i have no intention of doing.

[Bucko]

That's quite a statement. It's such things that give color and colour different spellings. It's called, "dialect."
Here's some colourful spelling:
humerously
imagin

[kohlrak]

Here's some colourful spelling:
humerously
imagin

i fail to see the point in that... Do explain it...

[Glenn]

That's funny. When I try to think of an entire area of the US where English has been significantly degraded, my thoughts instantly turn to the American South.

That's interesting. Why is that? By the way, if you were to think of a population who has significantly degraded English, who would you think of?

[kohlrak]

When you think about it... After about 50 years they've all been degraded... With the introduction of computers and lazy typers, you'll find intresting combinations such as "koi29" instead of "Quoi de neuf". lol I can see us writing storys 100 years down the road in school. "Once upon a time, there was a cow. This cow said 'j00 r0xx0rs mi s0xx0rs!'"

[yamada]

If you say 'see you', それじゃ or それでは.
You can use それでは after having talked with the person 3 or 4 times.
After having got friendly with the person, you can use それでは