the wonderful world of だ...

[kohlrak]

After a few day break (that i should never have taken) i once again have problems with だ. The problem with だ is that it's not documented well or at all... I've been handed a site, and i don't know what all it covers, and at this point i can see だ is covered sparingly... Other than that it's a great site, and i trust it. I use google to try to look for this information and i either get the grammar page of this site (only copied and pasted on theirs), Tae Kim's page (only changed a little, and i really don't trust him at all), some anime fan site with a handful of expressions and no grammar, or a page that supposedly covers the whole grammar, but is only 1 page (and that is clearly a bad type of site to go by). Let's try to stay on topic, and please (for the love of God) don't tell me how to learn the language, for this is the only way i can do it. I've heard how you all want me to learn the language enough times already. This is the only way i can learn the language, and this will have to do. As long as i have co-operation, my plan will work.

The Table (http://www.encyclopedia-online.info/Japanese_grammar#The_copula_.28.26.2312384.3B_da.2 9)

Yes, i know the table is the same one on this site (only it's alot easier to read because it's divided). I've been spending days using other resources (including This wonderful site (http://www.timwerx.net/language/jpverbs/index.htm)) to try to make this table make sence... First issue, is the "respect" thing... Correct me on the information below if i have any of it wrong:

Informal - Used by kids or with friends or some one younger than you. (Similar, but not the same as like "tu" in french.)
Polite - Used for strangers or for buisness meetings.
Respectful - Used for some one with a higher "rank" than you, such as a boss, teacher, or some one older than you.

Ok... Now, the even more complicated part... When it talks about continuative and imperfective, are those the particles or actual parts of the verb. For instance is it saying "[noun here]でじゃない" or "[noun here]じゃない" for negative non past?

Also, what is the difference between conditional and provisional? Also, the "te" thing... Is it a polite imperative(without kudasai), used for lists of actions, adverbs, and that's it? Also, from some of the examples from my book, it also could represent present, future, AND past? Also is it to show "completed action" without defining specifically a tense? And what is the attributive form's purpose?

I think if i can get all these answered i'll finally be on my way and things should clear up... I wish we had a word surgeon for japanese... lol

[Taiga_Shinjiro]

I'm not sure what you mean by continuative and imperfective, but the informal present negative is じゃない

Example: 学生じゃない.
I am not a student.

Te form is something in progress also can be an -ed if used in the past, I think but I haven't been actually taught that, yet.

Example: 食べていります
I am eating (now)

It differs from the masu form because the masu form is future or expresses a desire. I will eat or going to eat. Masu form is never understood as eating that is te form.

Conditional = If (something)
Not sure what provisional is

I don't want to sound rude but have you considered taking Japanese classes? These are rather elementary question that can be learned in a few classes. I recommend getting the genki series books. I'm using them in my classes and I have found them to be the best Japanese language books I've found.

Also, A dictionary of basic japanese grammer is a rather handy book that I find myself refering to often.

I would recommend not comparing Japanese to other languages. I've learned it's easier to learn a language on its own terms.

[kohlrak]

Like i said, i have this method only... There are no local classes, and there are no other books... I'm stuck with this... And i know it is, but it's not simple for this method that i'm stuck with learning, and hopefully in the future i'll be able to provide documents for those like me who have no choice... And thank you for your assistance, that small example of what the table means shows that the table was written correctly, just needs to be clarified.

If you read the table you might understand what i mean by "continuative" and "imperfective." The table defines these and shows their forms, but it dosn't show examples... So that's cleared up...

And i'm aware... Actually, in the past it's helped me though when learning languages through this method. When i compare langauges, i'm looking for weather or not something is roughly close to another...

Ok, that leaves the following questions still unanswered...

Also, what is the difference between conditional and provisional? Also, the "te" thing... Is it a polite imperative(without kudasai), used for lists of actions, adverbs, and that's it? Also, from some of the examples from my book, it also could represent present, future, AND past? Also is it to show "completed action" without defining specifically a tense? And what is the attributive form's purpose?

Informal - Used by kids or with friends or some one younger than you. (Similar, but not the same as like "tu" in french.)
Polite - Used for strangers or for buisness meetings.
Respectful - Used for some one with a higher "rank" than you, such as a boss, teacher, or some one older than you.

Am i right in what i say in the quoted text above?

[Taiga_Shinjiro]

Te form is something in progress also can be an -ed if used in the past, I think but I haven't been actually taught that, yet.

Showing progressing.

食べています
I am eating (now)

Te form is form used for actions that are happening now at the moment.

Te form also shows a change of state like getting married, receiving knowledge, etc.

Example: 知っています
I know (him/her/it)

Also, te form is used with prior movements such as...

日本にいっています
(I/he/she/it) has gone to Japan or (I/he/she/it) is in Japan.

Te form is used with a few other expressions from what I've learned like the kudasai you mention. I'm not sure if it is a tense or what not or if you just have to memorize when it's used.

I haven't learned it but I don't think te form is used for future actions. If you want to express the future or I will (do something) or I am going to (do something) you use the masu form.

"Am i right in what i say in the quoted text above?"

Yes, you are correct.

[Glenn]

Example: 食べていります
I am eating (now)
That should be 食べています.

Informal - Used by kids or with friends or some one younger than you. (Similar, but not the same as like "tu" in french.)
Polite - Used for strangers or for buisness meetings.
Respectful - Used for some one with a higher "rank" than you, such as a boss, teacher, or some one older than you.
Looks right to me.

Also, what is the difference between conditional and provisional?
None, as far as I can see in that chart.

Also, the "te" thing... Is it a polite imperative(without kudasai), used for lists of actions, adverbs, and that's it? Also, from some of the examples from my book, it also could represent present, future, AND past? Also is it to show "completed action" without defining specifically a tense?
だ doesn't have an imperative form of any kind that I'm aware of.
The で that is the -te form of the copula is used for "it is... and..." It's only used where the copula can be used. It doesn't have tense in itself; tense is only expressed at the end of the sentence, so it could mean any of them depending on context (get used to hearing that). No, it isn't used to show completed action.

And what is the attributive form's purpose?
To attach to a following nominal.


[Edit] I thought we were talking only about だ and its forms.

[nice gaijin]

it is best for a beginner to worry only about the dictionary form and 丁寧語 (desu/masu). It's also a bad idea to try to compare Japanese forms to other languages you might have studied.

informal forms are for people who are at or below your rung on the social ladder, so to speak (age is not the only factor). Polite is for people you don't know well, or are subordinate to. 謙譲語 and 尊敬語 are for even more formal situations, but worrying about them now is pointless. You need to learn to crawl before you can sprint.

As a side note: it is easier for us to help you when you use actual examples from the language, instead of the English names of the grammar structures. We have all learned Japanese differently, and many of us don't bother thinking of verb conjugations in terms of "imperfective," etc.

[Taiga_Shinjiro]

What do you mean by "completed action" without defining specifically a tense?

In Japanese to show that you have already done something you use mou + mashita form.

私はわもう宿題をしました
I have already completed the homework.

Or just just use the past tense. I think.

[kohlrak]

To attach to a following nominal.

Nominal?

It's only used where the copula can be used.

What do you mean? And the thing about imperatives was more of a general verb question... I don't think you can tell some one to exist as something. "BE A CARROT!" X'D

it is best for a beginner to worry only about the dictionary form and 丁寧語 (desu/masu). It's also a bad idea to try to compare Japanese forms to other languages you might have studied.

I really can't explain to you why it's important to bring it up now, without comming to your home and showing you the book... In short, if you saw this thing, you'd probably slap me along side the head for not taking it back and getting a refund. And like i said, when i compare them to other languages, i only intend them to be vague (not exact) comparisons.

None, as far as I can see in that chart.

That's the problem... The char insinuates that they are to different things, but the forms of the verbs are the same. The real damaging part is trying to figure out how to handle it when i come across them in conjugations later..

Though, we might be able to find out via example sentances of "ならば" and　"なら" (without the ば).

[Glenn]

The copula doesn't have a volitional conjugation. I think it's actually assumptive. Anyway, だろう/でしょう mean "probably be/is..."

Conditional is "if..."

[Taiga_Shinjiro]

Hey, we're both from PA, and you don't live that far from me. Dude, just take classes at Lehigh. They have Japanese. That's what I'm doing.

[nice gaijin]

です does not conjugate in all the same way as the other verbs. I'm not sure if anyone has told you that yet.

The only versions of the copula you need to know are だ、じゃない、です、じゃありません、で、and でしょう. The other forms you don't have to worry about yet are である、ではない、であります、ではありません、and であろう.

[kohlrak]

The copula doesn't have a volitional conjugation. I think it's actually assumptive.

That would explain quite a bit... But for future referance, what is volitional?

です does not conjugate in all the same way as the other verbs. I'm not sure if anyone has told you that yet.

That's why i'm not worrying about it later when i come across the regular verbs.

The only versions of the copula you need to know are だ、じゃない、です、じゃありません、and でしょう. The other forms you don't have to worry about yet are である、ではない、であります、ではありません、and であろう.

I worry about them all now, keeps it nice and ordered and ensures that i have everything. Also makes it easier than bringing it up later. The "lessons" i'm writing are actually a quick referance section "from the ground up."

Hey, we're both from PA, and you don't live that far from me. Dude, just take classes at Lehigh. They have Japanese. That's what I'm doing.

Quite a few people here from PA, but where is Lehigh? I never heard of it. What is it, a collage or what?

[Glenn]

That would explain quite a bit... But for future referance, what is volitional?

It usually refers to the conjugation of verbs that are formed similarly to だろう/でしょう, but they have the "let's..." meaning. I've seen it argued that that meaning came from the strong volition of the speaker derived from that form of the verb being used to convince someone else to verb with the speaker, and from there it got its "let's..." meaning, which I believe is otherwise referred to as "hortative." The volitional forms of verbs show more will on the part of the speaker to act than do the terminal/dictionary/plain forms, so たべよう is a more emphatic "I'm going to eat" than is たべる, but it can also mean "let's eat," depending on context (told you to get used to it :p).

[nice gaijin]

As a non-native speaker, you could probably go your whole life without any expecting you to use keigo. That doesn't stop any of us from trying to learn it, but trying to concentrate on all the conjugations of each verb as you learn them is really inefficient, compared to learning the rules for certain kinds of conjugations and how to apply them to the different kinds of verbs. There are so few irregular verbs that it's not that much of a stretch. Trying to worry about everything at once is like trying to eat a large watermelon in one bite.

[kohlrak]

depending on context (told you to get used to it ).

I've been used to having to base things on context way before starting to learn japanese...

is たべましょう an example of volitional?

Sorry if i sleep slow right now, i just saw a millipeed run across my keyboard, and me not exactly liking them, am in a small amount of shock....

There are so few irregular verbs that it's not that much of a stretch. Trying to worry about everything at once is like trying to eat a large watermelon in one bite.

My book dosn't go over all the types, and right now i'm only worrying about "だ" as a small amount of understanding is required for it, so i'm saying "why not just go all the way so i don't have to worry about it later and end up forgetting it completely?"

[Glenn]

is たべましょう an example of volitional?

Yes, it's the formal version of たべよう.

[kohlrak]

Good, then i think i understand everything now... Well, as far as だ is concerned, but that's all that matters right now... that... and this evil bug....

[Glenn]

Sorry, I just saw this post.

Nominal?

Noun-functioning constituent. In other words, it's either a noun or a noun phrase.

What do you mean? And the thing about imperatives was more of a general verb question... I don't think you can tell some one to exist as something. "BE A CARROT!" X'D

What do you mean what do I mean?

The -te form of verbs can be used as a command form without kudasai, yes.

Though, we might be able to find out via example sentances of "ならば" and　"なら" (without the ば).

They're the same thing, but ならば is a bit more old-fashioned and formal sounding.

[kohlrak]

Noun-functioning constituent. In other words, it's either a noun or a noun phrase.

Then could you give me an example sentance using だ in it's attributive form?

What do you mean what do I mean?

Just reread and understood. Nevermind. lol

[Glenn]

Then could you give me an example sentance using だ in it's attributive form?
It has three. The first, used for nouns modifying other nouns, is の. The other version that's used for nouns modifying other nouns is である, but that's a bit stiffer and more formal, from what I gather. The third, used for nominal adjectives (or adjectival nouns) modifying nouns, is な.

Example of type 1: アメリカの　がくせい
Example of type 2: ぎんこうである　ビル (probably a really strange example, but it illustrates the mechanics)
Example of type 3: しずかな　まち


Also note that it changes to な when a sequence of consecutive のs would result: そうなのだ.

[kohlrak]

Example of type 1: アメリカの　がくせい
Example of type 2: ぎんこうである　ビル (probably a really strange example, but it illustrates the mechanics)
Example of type 3: しずかな　まち

I thought の was a particle, not a form of だ.

アメリカの　がくせい

Student of america?

ぎんこうである　ビル

Building (noun form) of the bank.

しずかな　まち

The quiet street?

So basically, it's soul purpose is to be the linking "of" (possessive) to show compund nouns/noun phrases for subjects or objects and not really sentances stand alone?

[Mikawa Ossan]

I thought の was a particle, not a form of だ.
Student of america?
Without getting technical, I think Glenn is wrong about this one.
Why? Imagine this this sentence:

アメリカであるがくせい

The meaning is TOTALLY different from：

アメリカのがくせい

[nice gaijin]

michi is street, machi is town.

I have never heard anyone say that の was a form of だ, I'm not sure if that's right.　の is a possessive particle; アメリカの学生 sounds weird compared to アメリカ人の学生 (American student) or アメリカ大学の学生 (student of "America University," were that the name of the school).

である sounds really stiff, especially in the spoken language. ぎんこうであるビル sounds like "building that is a bank." I can't picture anyone saying this, since simply ぎんこう would probably suffice (or maybe ぎんこうのビル if you wanted to be really specific that it's a high-rise bank). Using a noun-modifying clause is also leaping way ahead.

I'd like for you to try to create a few sentences; put all that theory to practical use. Perhaps a self-introduction? You don't have to wow us, just try to use what you know to create a few short sentences, perhaps just saying your name/username, how old you are, and what grade you are in, or something like that. Simply talking about a language and not even trying to use it is like spinning your wheels in the mud. Hurry up and give it a shot because I'm running out of descriptive metaphors.

[kohlrak]

how old you are

Would that be by a form of だ or　いる?

what grade you are in

Woudln't that be いる though? Oh well...

わたしはKohlrakです。１６です。あめりかじんです。� ｪいじんです。にほんじんじゃないです。

Simple... lol

わたしはkohlrakでございます。１６でございます。あ� ﾟりかじんでございます。がいじんでございます。にほ� �じんじゃございません。

I don't think using the other forms would be as much of a test because they would simply be an elaboration of what i just did. lol

EDIT: prenominal adjective

Wild guess says that since that's the synonym for attributive form(or so the page says), it uses the verb as an adjative... Therefor である would mean something similar to "existable" based on that... I am starting to think that page is messed up... Problem is, that table is also part of jref's referance section...

[nice gaijin]

When you are stating facts, です is what you need.　いる is for describing a state of existence, or carrying on an activity (ex ここにはだれもいない (nobody is here)、or　わたしはべんきょうしている I am studying.)

when stating age, you need to affix "sai" to the number, so 16です becomes 16さいです。 The kanji for this is either 歳 or the simplified 才.

アメリカ is a foreign word; it needs to be written in katakana.

にほんじんじゃないです, although I suppose is grammatically acceptable, isn't natural. I'm chatting with a friend who has spent a year there studying the language, and he hasn't heard じゃないです used once in a negative assertion like that. A simple じゃありません will do. (じゃない is informal, and you were using です; once you pick a level of formality, you need to stick with it)

でございます is insanely formal, and you will probably never in your life be in a situation that calls for you to use it. Using it like this makes it sound like an anime character (this is not a good thing). Also, since じゃ is a less formal contraction of では, it cannot be used with ございます／ございません.

Good effort; actually showing us what you can come up with gives us a lot more to work with to help you. We can talk theory all day and make very little progress in comparison.

[yukio_michael]

I erased this message to the original poster--- everything it seemed to say was based on the method of learning, or at the very least the method of asking for help, some things the original poster very specifically said they were not interested in hearing... I'm not going to get into advising or arguing with someone who won't listen to advice. Good luck though.

I will say this, desu, masu & arimasu are probably the cornerstones of the Japanese language. I don't think they are shrouded in mystery, and there is a wealth of information on these forms. Your possible failure to be introduced these things in a way that allows you to grasp this may point to failures in your methods. Think about it.

[yukio_michael]

でございます is insanely formal, and you will probably never in your life be in a situation that calls for you to use it. Using it like this makes it sound like an anime character (this is not a good thing). Also, since じゃ is a less formal contraction of では, it cannot be used with ございます／ございません.I like to use extremely formal or antiquated forms as a sort of joke; even though I don't watch enough anime to know that de gozaimasu is common in them, I can reiterate that you should avoid the language used in anime.

I have used ...de gozaimasu, when introducing myself. I was actually taught this by my girlfriend, a native speaker. She of course taught it to me because she knew that I liked overtly polite forms, but--- I think, as she explained it, they come off a little funny and cute, rather than like someone who watches too much anime. It's common in Japanese to do this as well, for effect.

There are simple textbook forms that I would suggest the original poster to follow, but I don't think this person want's to be told where to look for answers, just given them.

[kohlrak]

Good effort; actually showing us what you can come up with gives us a lot more to work with to help you. We can talk theory all day and make very little progress in comparison.

Aye, until understanding だ i had no verbs to go on except あります... And that being the only form. Now i have something i can use to pull things right out of the dictionary to use them.

I will say this, desu, masu & arimasu are probably the cornerstones of the Japanese language. I don't think they are shrouded in mystery, and there is a wealth of information on these forms.

If you already know them...

Using it like this makes it sound like an anime character (this is not a good thing).

Heh heh.. I've noticed that many anime make them overly informal in the english versions as well. I remember one show where they made a character so respectful she asked some one to kill her cause it was a secondary objective to his mission. Whatever happened to the days when it was only martial arts, lip movment that dosn't match, and a giant beast and that was ok? Why did they have to add prophanity and junk to japanese media imported into america? Ok, that's off topic...

It's common in Japanese to do this as well, for effect.

I do have no doubt that it would be overly popular with the ladies. lol

There are simple textbook forms that I would suggest the original poster to follow, but I don't think this person want's to be told where to look for answers, just given them.

Problem is, there's nowhere else that i know of to get these answers. A quick skim over my book would tell you that it's only a guidebook for "what you need to last 30 days in Japan."

I like to use extremely formal or antiquated forms as a sort of joke; even though I don't watch enough anime to know that de gozaimasu is common in them, I can reiterate that you should avoid the language used in anime.

These respect forms remind me of an overly obliged jeenie... That'd make a popular anime series...

(じゃない is informal, and you were using です; once you pick a level of formality, you need to stick with it)

It was covered in my book. Making me trust it even less now. lol

[nice gaijin]

It was covered in my book. Making me trust it even less now. lol
Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about your use of じゃないです, but rather that your affirmative sentences were ending in です, which sets the tone at a polite level of formality. If you were to throw in a sentence ending in an informal じゃない, or だ, etc, it would be very out of place, and would stand out as a glaring mistake. So unless someone tells you to be more or less formal, stick to a single voice.　です、です、です、あります、でしょう、じゃ ありません、いきます, and so on.

Also, don't sell your materials short. Try to learn as much as you can from them, and when you move on to other materials, you can compare what you've learned to what the new materials (or other teachers or students) say. Being able to speak and using a few strange or obsolete words is better than not being able to speak at all.

[kohlrak]

Isn't じゃないです formal(polite)? I would assume the informal would have been じゃないだ.

[nice gaijin]

pretty much anything ending with です or ～ます is formal. I just meant that じゃないです sounded weird, and you should instead use じゃありません.

As a general rule, you should never put だ or です after another verb, especially at the end of a sentence. じゃない is the informal version of じゃありません.

[kohlrak]

I figured it sounded weird, though. lol

[undrentide]

じゃない is contraction of ではない, and if you want to sound formal (or rather, polite), ではありません would be better.

Strictly speaking 〜ないです and i-adjective＋です are regarded "ungrammatical" but widely used/accepted in daily life.

[Glenn]

Without getting technical, I think Glenn is wrong about this one.
Why? Imagine this this sentence:

アメリカであるがくせい

The meaning is TOTALLY different from：

アメリカのがくせい

If you mean wrong about the example I gave, I agree. In that example の is the genetive marker, not the copula. However, の is a form of the copula. If I changed it to アメリカ人の学生 and compared that with アメリカ人である学生, would you agree that の is a form of the copula there? That is, of course, in the interpretation that doesn't mean "students that belong to Americans" (which is a bit strange anyway).

That you need a predicate to attach directly to a noun and modify it speaks to の being a copula in that phrase, as well as in もどりのはっぱ. This is taken from this page (http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/%7Ets/japanese/relativeclause.html) (scroll down to the copula section to see what I'm talking about).

On a side note, and I meant to mention this earlier: just because two words have the same form does not mean that they are the same word. I was thinking about this in relation to あります when it's a word on its own and when it is a part of the copula -- であります. Think of the English word "can." Do you think it's only one word? It certainly doesn't behave as only one word.

[Mikawa Ossan]

If you mean wrong about the example I gave, I agree. In that example の is the genetive marker, not the copula. However, の is a form of the copula. If I changed it to アメリカ人の学生 and compared that with アメリカ人である学生, would you agree that の is a form of the copula there? That is, of course, in the interpretation that doesn't mean "students that belong to Americans" (which is a bit strange anyway).

That you need a predicate to attach directly to a noun and modify it speaks to の being a copula in that phrase, as well as in もどりのはっぱ. This is taken from this page (http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/%7Ets/japanese/relativeclause.html) (scroll down to the copula section to see what I'm talking about).

On a side note, and I meant to mention this earlier: just because two words have the same form does not mean that they are the same word. I was thinking about this in relation to あります when it's a word on its own and when it is a part of the copula -- であります. Think of the English word "can." Do you think it's only one word? It certainly doesn't behave as only one word.
Hi Glenn! Well, what shall I say? Let's just say that I agree with this explanation a million times more than the original example! :cool:

Oh and your point about two words looking the same but being completely different is only too true!

[Glenn]

Haha, yeah. I don't even remember if I was thinking アメリカ人 last night when I wrote that, but when I read your comment I thought, "oh god, he's right. Oops. :blush:" I'm glad you pointed that out.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Your example and your post refining your explanation got me thinking about why I try to avoid such constructions in my Japanese. I have been the object of too much confusion over that one. I avoid that use of "no" like it's poison!:relief:

[kohlrak]

If you mean wrong about the example I gave, I agree. In that example の is the genetive marker, not the copula. However, の is a form of the copula. If I changed it to アメリカ人の学生 and compared that with アメリカ人である学生, would you agree that の is a form of the copula there? That is, of course, in the interpretation that doesn't mean "students that belong to Americans" (which is a bit strange anyway).

That you need a predicate to attach directly to a noun and modify it speaks to の being a copula in that phrase, as well as in もどりのはっぱ. This is taken from this page (http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/%7Ets/japanese/relativeclause.html) (scroll down to the copula section to see what I'm talking about).

On a side note, and I meant to mention this earlier: just because two words have the same form does not mean that they are the same word. I was thinking about this in relation to あります when it's a word on its own and when it is a part of the copula -- であります. Think of the English word "can." Do you think it's only one word? It certainly doesn't behave as only one word.


What i don't like about this is, is the fact Japanese is Subject-Object-Verb. If の was a form of the copula, it would come at the end, right? I would interpret "アメリカ人の学生" as "Students of an american teacher." But, i'm not proficiant in japanese, so i think i better wait till later to make judgements. lol

[Glenn]

It does come at the end. It comes at the end of アメリカ人だ, but it's been transformed from that sentence. It's the same as how あるく in 道 (みち) を歩 (ある)く人 (ひと) comes at the end. It's a mini-sentence inside a clause, or larger sentence. Predicatives directly modify nouns in Japanese.

It could mean "students of an American" but I think that usually you would have 先生（せんせい）in there to clarify that it's a teacher (which would also clarify the meaning of the phrase). If 先生 isn't usually there, context will clear things up.

[kohlrak]

It could mean "students of an American" but I think that usually you would have 先生（せんせい）in there to clarify that it's a teacher (which would also clarify the meaning of the phrase). If 先生 isn't usually there, context will clear things up.

I would naturally assume teacher, unless something was said to show otherwise, then i would assume it's a racist statement that they didn't think highly enough of the man (or girl) to call him (or her) a teacher.

It does come at the end. It comes at the end of アメリカ人だ, but it's been transformed from that sentence. It's the same as how あるく in 道 (みち) を歩 (ある)く人 (ひと) comes at the end. It's a mini-sentence inside a clause, or larger sentence. Predicatives directly modify nouns in Japanese

Then what's it comparing it to? If i were to consider it a form of だ i wuold assume it ment in an "of"ish meaning, and that it would be "アメリカ人(は)学生の。" Or are you saying that の is described by アメリカ人 and that "mini-sentance" describes the 学生? That is an awkward way of thinking about it. lol

[Glenn]

I don't really know what you're saying in that first section.

I'm saying that アメリカ人だ describes 学生.

[kohlrak]

I don't really know what you're saying in that first section.

Basically that if some one said that to me, i'd think they'd have a problem with americans teaching the student(s).

I'm saying that アメリカ人だ describes 学生

Then it'd be... nvm... i'll just treat it as it's defined, a particle...

[nice gaijin]

の is used to link nouns in many ways. アメリカ人の学生 is just "American student(s)," if you want to specify that it's an American teacher's students, you would say アメリカ人の先生の学生 (あめりか人のせんせいのがくせい）. Otherwise, no one would think that の is possessive in this context. For アメリカ人のせんせいのがくせい, the first の is descriptive, the second one is possessive.

as for である:
である is a verb, and when a verb is placed in front of a noun, it means that the verb or the entire preceding clause becomes a description of the noun (like a big adjective). However, I asked a native speaker about アメリカ人である学生, and she said that it doesn't make sense, even if it is grammatically acceptable. It's at least something a native speaker would never even think of using.

noun-modifying verbs are very common, but that can come later; they can get really complicated.

[kohlrak]

noun-modifying verbs are very common, but that can come later; they can get really complicated.

Agreed, but for the sake of sentance structure consistancy(for the time being), i think i'll just restrict my thinking of の to be a particle, just like all the other particles.

の is used to link nouns in many ways. アメリカ人の学生 is just "American student(s)," if you want to specify that it's an American teacher's students, you would say アメリカ人の先生の学生 (あめりか人のせんせいのがくせい）. Otherwise, no one would think that の is possessive in this context. For アメリカ人のせんせいのがくせい, the first の is descriptive, the second one is possessive.

That's intresting, actually... の is in the particle section 2 lessons down the road. Then a few more lessons before it describes posessives (which makes no sence, really) and it says if you omit "anata no" and you add either o- or go- to the front... Then it tells me absolutely nothing about how to identify which ones you do that with, or how to specify weather の is posessive or not. So, does it have to be 2 の and the second one posessive to be posessive or is the logic a little more warped? (This book's seemingly random order makes things difficult to know what section i'll need to know this for...) This book is really starting to tick me off. lol

[nice gaijin]

I suggest looking up particles, either on one of those grammar sites we linked you to, or here on JREF. There aren't too many, but they do cause quite a bit of trouble for students. Particles are one aspect of the language I recommend learning all at once; it's very important to know the differences between them, as they are used to specify what serves what function in the sentence.

To make things easier for you, don't worry about の in terms of possession; it's all descriptive in a sense:
メアリーさんの家 - Mary's house
ジョーさんのお母さんのお姉さんのかさ - Joe's mother's older sister's umbrella
たろうさんの弁当 - Tarou's bentou
アメリカ人の学生 - American student

In all these cases, the material preceding の are all nouns describing what comes after the particle. Although you could interpret the last one to mean "American's student," doesn't that sound a little weird, even in English? In such a case, it's better to think of アメリカ人 as a descriptive noun. After a while, you'll get the hang of it, just keep practicing.

[kohlrak]

To make things easier for you, don't worry about の in terms of possession; it's all descriptive in a sense:

Or i could think of it as just plain "of" like in english, only a japanese equivalent with it's own gramatical rules. Even in english it can mean posessive. lol

The particles that my book talks about are...

が、は、の、に、を、も、へ、と、や、より、から、まで、で、ばかり、だけ、ほど、くらい、a nd　か.

Is that all of them?

[nice gaijin]

That looks pretty complete, but I think I would limit my list of particles to those with one syllable; から、まで、ばかり、だけ、ほど、 and くらい are usually covered separately as grammar structures in their own right.

correction: the others are indeed considered particles, but there are many grammar structures and conjunctions that make use of them (the same is true even for the single-syllable particles). So know them and what they mean, but don't worry about knowing all of their uses just yet.

[Mamoru-kun]

Sorry to jump into the scene, but if I don't need to create a separate topic for it (don't hesitate to tell me otherwise), I would be very gratefull to know what would be the translation, or at least the signification, of ほど and わけ. After times I finished to use them naturally in a couple of sentences, which were correct I've been said, but I don't have a clue on what they do modify exactly in those sentences (and so won't be able to use them in sentences I would have to create "by hand")...:-(

[nice gaijin]

~ほど~ is literally "to the extent that," or and can follow a large variety of items including adjectives, verbs, and nouns/clauses. It is also like "the more..." as in "The more you study," or "The closer you sit." ほど needs something to follow it, as do the English examples above. The Dictionary of Intermediate Grammar gives this as an example: 私は静かなほど落ち着かない。 (the quieter it is the more uneasy I feel). Personally, I don't use this particle very much.

~わけだ is translated as "the truth of the matter is..." and emphasizes the fact of the preceding clause. It is related to ending a clause with のだ／のです (but not ので), but I think it is a stronger assertion. the negative form　わけじゃない／わけではない serves just the opposite purpose: to negate whatever was implied in the preceding clause. たけしさんは失礼ですが、悪い人だというわけではない 。 There are other uses of わけ; it is definitely a useful and sometimes difficult structure to get used to.

[kohlrak]

That looks pretty complete, but I think I would limit my list of particles to those with one syllable; から、まで、ばかり、だけ、ほど、 and くらい are usually covered separately as grammar structures in their own right.

correction: the others are indeed considered particles, but there are many grammar structures and conjunctions that make use of them (the same is true even for the single-syllable particles). So know them and what they mean, but don't worry about knowing all of their uses just yet.

I have this sad feeling that i'm going to require assistance with them at the end of my book... Not sure if they're covered or not... It's not as easy to tell if it's covered as it is to tell if だ is covered...

[Mamoru-kun]

Thank you nice_gaijin. Now I got my problem: the explanations in english seem easier than in french, perhaps because in english you have more accurate translation for those words than what we have (or what I have been told) in french. Furthermore, as you said, there is a lot of place where those two words can be used, so training is just the key I guess.
Anyway, thank you very much for the "the more..." thing, I was not aware of it. Regarding that, is "the less..." translated the same way, the understanding given by the context?

[nice gaijin]

I've never studied French, so I couldn't be sure about that. I try to get a good understanding of the grammar points, so that I can share them with other students to increase their understanding as well. I find that native English speakers, once they grasp the concept, are sometimes better suited to explain it (in English) than a native Japanese speaker. For this reason, it seems strange to me that some people discount a teacher or tutor based on the fact that they aren't Japanese.

Back on topic, yes, there are several more uses for both ほど and わけ. If you can pick up a copy of "A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar" (the little baby-blue book), it explains pretty much everything, replete with examples.

[kohlrak]

For this reason, it seems strange to me that some people discount a teacher or tutor based on the fact that they aren't Japanese.

It's harder for some one to teach their own language, because you're used to everything and you might forget something alot easier than any student would.

I've never studied French, so I couldn't be sure about that. I try to get a good understanding of the grammar points, so that I can share them with other students to increase their understanding as well.

Could be the fact that English has many new words added everyday and english is insanely and purpouslessly huge. I don't think a bunch of people have to look up words as much in japanese as in English. And french adjatives seem a little vivid, though not as vivid as すてき. Hopefully i can get this stuff typed up without the power going out on me again.

[nice gaijin]

It's harder for some one to teach their own language, because you're used to everything and you might forget something alot easier than any student would.
I think it's more likely that it's because a native speaker (of English) is more comfortable explaining how a structure works to another native (English) speaker. I've often put grammar explanations into words more concise and easily understood than my fellow (Japanese native) tutors and even teachers.

Another possible reason could be that native speakers don't usually think of why a grammar structure works the way it does, but rather in terms of whether is sounds natural or not. I know I feel that way about English sometimes, when asked a question like "why can I use this word here, but not this one?"

[kohlrak]

Another possible reason could be that native speakers don't usually think of why a grammar structure works the way it does, but rather in terms of whether is sounds natural or not. I know I feel that way about English sometimes, when asked a question like "why can I use this word here, but not this one?"

Exactly... If some one told you to teach them english you'd be like, "uuuuuuuuuuuuh..." You wouldn't know where to start. Then during the lessons you would make assumptions that they already know something, because you know it. You wouldn't even think that they don't know it. It's like teaching your friend how to beat the first level of a game. You tell him to move forward and he dosn't, then you realize that he's using the dpad instead of the analog stick. That's what i ment by a guy who learned a language knowing more than a native. Sadly, there is a group of people who say "what is correct" and "what is incorrect" and it's usually not what the natives agree on. And all this points out why it's really difficult to teach a language after you've learned it. This is why i'm typing my lessons up and translating them for others, now. I'll only let a few people learn from them at this point, and i'll only let them learn from my lessons, because i know they'll be able to adapt to the common statements over the gramatical.

The problem is examples in japanese turning out like this klingon example:

be''a' Dunqu' ghuH. (She's a really great be''a'.)

Best way to think of this example is... Xena... Xena would be a be''a' (there is no word in english for be''a' but the root word be' is a noun meaning woman) and Dun is an adjative saying she's great, so put a superman cape on her. Now -qu' would be.. well... it makes the word Dun more emphetic... And i don't know how you can make poor Xena represent anything stronger than a Superman version of herself, therefor, the phrase is gramatically correct, but it can't be understood.

Therefor, grammar lessons should be written by non-natives, and examples of the grammar should be written by natives. Sadly, it never works that way and either side wants to take all the credit so you either have great grammar and not understood, or understood, but not all the language is explained.

[kohlrak]

(pardon the double post, but i had to bump this post back up since the ones involved most likely see it as over.)

When you are stating facts, です is what you need.　いる is for describing a state of existence, or carrying on an activity (ex ここにはだれもいない (nobody is here)、or　わたしはべんきょうしている I am studying.)

So, basically, then, いる is used only for describing something's condition (such as being sick or at a certain place or being occupied by something) and だ is basically for saying what something is..? Even under that logic, age would be displayed by いる, right? Isn't age a condition?

[Mamoru-kun]

Do you say :"I am 20", or "I am being 20"? ;-)

[kohlrak]

yea, but that's english. age is something that changes, like location.

[Bucko]

You're on the right track kohlrak. The 'be' version of 'iru' describes a state in time. You also use it to describe something you're doing right now. E.g. "I'm drinking", "I'm eating", however it's slightly different to the English ~ing. To say "I'm eating" in Japanese you say "tabete iru", and "drinking" is "nonde iru". However (and this use to really confuse me until I got my head around it), "tomatte iru" in English doesn't mean "stopping" (as one would expect at first), but rather "has stopped". Likewise, "itte iru" doesn't mean "going", but rather, "has gone". This is because of that whole state thing that you mentioned before. So when I see the "~te iru" form in Japanese I try not to compare it to the English "~ing" form because of these differences.

If you want to translate "tabete iru" into English literally it's more along the lines of "eat, then be", but of course that sounds totally crap so people just translate it into "eating". Likewise, "tomatte iru" means "stop, then be", i.e. "has stopped".

[kohlrak]

Reminds me of -taH.. This might be were okrand got it...

-taH Continuous.

Sop = Eat

SoptaH = eating (was eating, is eating, will be eating)

Basically putting iru on the end means something continueous or unstopped.

when stating age, you need to affix "sai" to the number, so 16です becomes 16さいです。 The kanji for this is either 歳 or the simplified 才.

And the book says...

はたちです。 - I am 20.

I think my book loves complicating things. Over on a deeper look into it,

It also says:

あにはにじゅうごさいです。 - My　older brother is 25.

おとうとはじゅうしちです。 - My younger brother is 17.

いもうとはじゅうごです。 - My sister is 15.

Is the lack of さい a gramatical thing or something, or does my book have a few too many typos?

[Bucko]

Not sure if the lack of さい is wrong or not, but the most common way to ask someone their age is おいくつですか。, which basically means "how many are you?" So I wonder whether or not a simple にじゅうろくです。(without the さい) is acceptable? Anyone care to share?

FYI, the other way to ask someone their age is なんさいですか, meaning "what is your age", where you would reply にじゅうろっさいです

[Glenn]

I think you can drop さい when it's obvious you're talking about age. I believe you can use the old Japanese numbers (ひとつ, ふたつ, みっつ, etc.) when telling your age, and the continuation of those is the じゅういち, じゅうに, etc. set.

Also, はたち is the old Japanese word for 20, and as far as I know it never gets さい (it's only used for age anyway). はつか for "the 20th (of a month)" is the same. I don't know why those remained but the others disappeared, though.

[kohlrak]

Still leaves the question of which i'd use to say "i have a cold." Would it be いる　or だ? lol

[epigene]

I think you can drop さい when it's obvious you're talking about age. I believe you can use the old Japanese numbers (ひとつ, ふたつ, みっつ, etc.) when telling your age, and the continuation of those is the じゅういち, じゅうに, etc. set.
Also, はたち is the old Japanese word for 20, and as far as I know it never gets さい (it's only used for age anyway). はつか for "the 20th (of a month)" is the same. I don't know why those remained but the others disappeared, though.
When used with age, the old counting style is commonly applied to age of small kids, usually up to age 9 (kokonotsu) and switches to the newer at age 10 (jissai; jussai, which has become popularly used today but still not considered grammatically correct).
From what I learned in the past (despite fading memory:relief: ), "hatachi" and "hatsuka" remain because 20 is an important number. The terms are believed to derive from 果てる（はてる）, roughly meaning "to reach infinity." 20 represents a very large number. :relief:

[Glenn]

Ah, thanks, epigene.

Still leaves the question of which i'd use to say "i have a cold." Would it be いる　or だ? lol
Definitely not いる. 風邪がある I believe is the standard way of saying it, but I haven't been involved in many conversations about colds.

By the way, the use of いる that Bucko described above is only when it's an auxiliary verb. It means existence when it's a verb on its own (as long as it isn't 要る, which sounds the same in dictionary form).

[Mikawa Ossan]

Ah, thanks, epigene.


Definitely not いる. 風邪がある I believe is the standard way of saying it, but I haven't been involved in many conversations about colds.

By the way, the use of いる that Bucko described above is only when it's an auxiliary verb. It means existence when it's a verb on its own (as long as it isn't 要る, which sounds the same in dictionary form).
Most commonly, かぜをひいた or かぜをひいている is used.

[Glenn]

Ah, that's right! I thought my version sounded strange. :bow:

[nice gaijin]

"hatsuka" remain because 20 is an important number. The terms are believed to derive from 果てる（はてる）, roughly meaning "to reach infinity." 20 represents a very large number.
Which explains why 20 is considered the "coming of age" birthday, when young men and women become adults...
Still leaves the question of which i'd use to say "i have a cold." Would it be いる　or だ? lolneither, actually. To catch a cold is 風邪を引く, and to have a cold is 風邪を引いた (風邪を引いている can also be used to specify that you are currently sick, but I usually use past tense even if I still have a cold).

There are certain words that require certain verbs, and the use of 〜ている affects certain verbs differently. Verbs like Bucko's example with とまっている, or, for instance 死ぬ (to die), 行く (to go), or 結婚する (to get married) are all actions that have a certain point where they are considered completed, so using 〜ている is like saying the person or object is in a state of having completed the action. 行っている does not mean "on the way," but rather, "has gone." Probably 死んでいる (is dead/has died) is easier to grasp, since there's a very clear distinction between alive and dead.

Also, please no more klingon :relief:

[kohlrak]

I'm working on particles now... So, i get my headache... I have 3 sources, one of them being jref, and they tell me that a few of the particles are used in place of other particles, takin' their roles. Not necessarily saying wether they're interchangable, but specifically saying that there are certain cases where some particles are used in place of others, or sometimes together, but does not come out and say what these special cases are or how to identify them.

A few examples are... を　and が, に and の... and so on... Actually, those 2 might be the only ones that i can think of right now... I'm sure there are more, and i'm sure that there are many exceptions, but this lack of description is getting annoying, are some of these interchangeable or are they rules that only a fluent person would be able to decide between?

[Bucko]

Welcome to the world of particles. Every language has them, and they're a killer to learn! The easiest particle IMO is へ, because it's simply directional, much like the English 'to' as in 'I'm going to New York'. を is a little annoying at first, but once you're able to comprehend it it makes real sense. で and に take a lot of getting use to, and I still constantly mix them up. The differences between は and が can be pretty confusing too.　の, in the possessive sense, it pretty basic, but I still find it confusing when it's used as a question marker, or a marker that gives information.

へ and に are usually interchangable when talking about going somewhere. But I think the meaning slightly changes as へ is directional, but に is locational.

Also, sometimes を and が can be interchangable, depending on where you want the emphasis of the sentence to be.

[kohlrak]

The problem is not understanding the particles themselves, it's understanding when to use one over the other, considering some convey the exact same meaning, but are used in preferance.