Multicultral society

[miki78]

I was just wondering if people are for or against a Multicultral society in there country

I love the fact that when i walk down the street the faces that look back at me are from so many diffrent cultures and religions :-)

[Mars Man]

I'd have to say that I'm basically for multicultural society, as long as those social groups are careful not to attempt to intrude into, and then erase or force change on other culture groups, and at the same time allow its members to choose freely among the several available cultures--even if that means some loss of number or purity.

[leonmarino]

I am in favor of a multi-cultural society, but it's too easy and naive to say "the more the merrier".
I live in Rotterdam, Holland. It is one of the most culturally diverse cities in Holland. Currently, around 45% of its inhabitants is "allochtonous", a term that denotes someone who is either a foreigner or is of directly foreign descent (one or both parents are foreigners). There also regions in this city where the ratio is higher, upto 85%.
The major part of these people are either economical refugees or (ex)guest workers. In Holland they make up a large part of the social underclass. Being from the lower classes, these people often do not have access to the resources needed for proper education; many generations are "stuck" living like that. Also, the Dutch government, thinking it'd be "racist" to address the problem, simply have ignored the problems for years, and failed to stand up for these people and motivate them to integrate into Dutch society and educate themselves.
This has caused alienation and a tense friction between the ethnic Dutch and "allochtones". Cultural clashes in everyday life has been experienced as incomprehensible by the common man and ignored by government leaders. Making matters worse, the criminal activities caused by these people of lower classes has bred a negative stereotype. (people of lower classes commit more crime, no matter what ethnicity) The recent terrorist attacks and further secularization of Muslims has made matters even worse.
Sure, I would love a multi-cultural society; I am very curious by nature and love to hear stories about other cultures and countries. But as of this moment this society we have here in Rotterdam is far from a friendly melting pot. The word for society in Dutch is "samenliving", which translates to "living together".. Right now this "togetherness" is merely a societal utopia, unrecognizable in the streets.
A multi-cultural society needs guidance and management until it is self-sustaining, and after decades of ignorance and neglect, I sometimes think it is too late. I hope for the better, but I wonder if my idealized image of a multi-cultural society will ever be applicable for Holland.

[ricecake]

It's novelty can wear out in time,cruel reality awakens as many later realize living in a multi-cultural society with different peoples are suffocating and can lead to ethnic strifes or racial tensions.In truth,very few regardless of race or ethnicity would choose to live with other kinds.Of-course,no one dares to admit because it can be perceived as " racist ".

There are some in America began whining back in early 1990's,this country became " too much melting pot ".

I am the one voted " against ' in this polling,am not a supporter of such noble ideal.

[Mars Man]

While I believe that I do quite fully understand the problems that ricecake and leonmarino have brought up, and do agree that it is a reality in the way things have become, I would also suggest that actually it is the lack of (not have adequate refinement of) culture, among those who allow themselves to fall into such a 'blackhole' of ignorance and over seriousness of their own culture.

The essence of living ones life wrapped in the mantle of a certain culture need not be taken, by that one, as a means to an end in human existence--which too often appears to be the case. Also, 'culture' is surely a thing of knowledge and learning anyway, so to learn and educate oneself in the culture in which they have been born and raised is a matter of course, and to do the same for other cultures is a very recommendable thing. So, education is really a key factor! That voice for education should come from within the culture group itself, I would argue, and most unfortunately, has not happened so much in the real world--so...the problems.

I lived with people from Gujarat India for about a year, four of us in an apartment in New Jersey, and worked with them closely for even longer. I have lived with people from Mexico, in Arizona, and tasted that culture too. I now live here, and in the process of trying to teach my sons all four cultures, and have them be able to balance an 'international attitude' as much as possible. Education is the key player.

[Kinsao]

I live in a fairly multicultural city (approx. 50% of the population not "white British"), and on the whole, people get a long pretty well. There are occasional incidents/frictions of course, but there is not a great deal of racial tension. I like living in a multicultural environment because I can learn about different countries and cultures; it is interesting. There are celebrations from various festivals, lots of different arts and stuff... I think that as long as people show respect, it's good. :cool:

Of course, I'm naively thinking of the "ideal world" where people are respectful and tolerant; I recognise that there are problems, it's not so good for everybody, if it causes issues with identity, integration, social problems etc... but I am just thinking at the most superficial level :haihai: and for example in a place like my city where it works well. :)

[ricecake]

Across America,people of all races do live in harmony.Younger generation white-Americans are much more tolerance of other races than their grandparents' generation.Political correctness has beaten into all of us for 3 decades now,we refrain from making outward bigoted remarks in public.

The question remains,do majority ordinary folks genuinely would live with other kinds if they have a choice.

America's ethnic majority commonly would sell out and leave when other kinds begin buying properties in the neighborhood.

The truth lies beneath the skin.

[Dutch Baka]

I like a Multicultral Society, as long as it won't get to Multicultural... When I walk down in Amsterdam, I feel being in another country so now and then. So that goes to far!

[Elizabeth]

America's ethnic majority commonly would sell out and leave when other kinds begin buying properties in the neighborhood.
The truth lies beneath the skin.
Consistent with more recent data, long-term, stable integrated neighborhoods are actually fairly substantial and increasing quickly, perhaps inevitably becoming the norm of the future. Whites moving out isn't so much the issue anymore as that middle-class (primarily) buyers are avoiding partially black/Hispanic neighborhoods from a fear of the area going overwhelming ethnic and the property values or quality of life decreasing dramatically as a result. Hopefully, if it isn't irrational racism at root, with some small govt intervention the situation can partially be reversed. :relief:

[Mars Man]

The truth lies beneath the skin.

That's for sure !! I fully agree !!

[Sukotto]

A couple years ago I was able to see this movie "The Color of Fear".
It was amazing and brought up difficult issues. Really made one think.
It got quite heated at times. There was about 10 men of different backgrounds that sat around and discussed racism/ethnicity, whatever. (there is a similar movie with women doing the same, I am told) One particular exchange was like: At least one person didn't like that others 'flaunted' their culture. While others were like, why should I be like you? Why should I give up who I am just to please you? This is who I am.
I'll leave it at that.


I would say, in the US, we already have, and in fact have always had a multi-cultural society. It's just that those that can afford superior technology should not go insane, think they are superior and go killing (and jailing) those with out. Claiming it is some 'natural, lawful order' of things.

[Elizabeth]

I don't think very many people anywhere are going to feel completely at ease living solely or with a small number of others in close proximity to an overwhelming concentration composing a different single race, social class (especially), ethnicity, religion etc. On the other hand, where the multiculturalism truly multi -- where it is sprinkled evenly around so everyone is essentially a minority (although there may be a plurality on certain aspects) the comfort level increases dramatically, at least that's been the case with integration in the US, and the possibilities for mutual understanding with cross cultural relationships are much greater.
The question is really too broad, depending on the particular ethnicity, their class standing, generations in the country, etc. and leaves out too many essential factors....

[Sukotto]

Japan too is a Multi-cultural society and always has been (too).

Multicultural Japan: Palaeolithic to Postmodern (http://www.waoe.org/steve/multicult.html) has articles by various scholars from many different fields of study of Japan.


from reviewer at above link, warning:
"the proceedings would not serve well as an introduction to Japanese culture"



Chapters 3 and 4, at least, state that ideas of today, such as that of looking to the past and constructing a mono-culture 'then', are nothing more than ideologies of powerful interests now to maintain or strengthen those interests.
i.e. "used politically to cement a national identity" (says reviewer)

[yukio_michael]

Japan too is a Multi-cultural society and always has been (too).

Multicultural Japan: Palaeolithic to Postmodern (http://www.waoe.org/steve/multicult.html) has articles by various scholars from many different fields of study of Japan.Yes, I think it's academic to say, I mean, this common argument that Japan is multi-cultural... MOST places are multicultural in ethnicity. It's how well a society recognises and allows cultures & ethnicities in the minority to not only voice their opinions but to have sovereign rights to practice and keep their own identities that marks a society as truly 'multi-cultural'. Japan it seems, fails in this aspect in profound and meaningful ways.

If you are Korean, and wish to become a Japanese citizen, you must give up your own ethnic identity--- you are erased. To the Japanese this is part & parcel to becoming a Japanese citizen, but isn't turning a blind eye to minorities a form of psychological ethnic cleansing?

[Sukotto]

but isn't turning a blind eye to minorities a form of psychological ethnic cleansing?



If i'm not mistaken, genocide doesn't mean only physically murdering people.

For example, the sending of the children of America's First Nations away to boarding school to "europeanize" or de-Indianize them against their will.

[ricecake]

Japan too is a Multi-cultural society and always has been (too).





Multi-Mongoloid ethnics NOT equate to " multi-cultural society ",Japan is mainly East Asian ( culturally and racially ) homogeneous society.

[kamaru]

What a coincidence , that's the exact topic I'm currently studying in my college English course , so I might have a few ideas...
i actually think it's a relative question. Multicultures can't always coexist. If the presence of different cultures in one society isn't correctly monitored (peaceful conflicts resolutions, equality,...) then multiculture would become a threat to the stability of the nation.. It can lead to the appearance of sub-societies like the case of the US or to civil wars like the one that happened in my country 30 years ago...
Nevertheless these societies can exist especially were people overlook your appearence, religion and origin (maybe a bit ideal but I'm sure somewhere it exists)...

[moffeltoff]

If person a immigrates into country x person a has to except not only the laws of this country but also the social ones for example adapt to the mainstream culture in a way ,which makes it easy to live in that country for immigrants and the natives.
At the moment itｴs a big issue in germany with muslim women wairing theyｴre vails in gouverment institutions ,we live in a laicist country so there religious symbols should be kept out of official positions altogether.
In generall I think you could say multiculturism is somehting ,which can work as long as a mainstream culture is maintained and the minority cultures adapt to this in a way ,which causes minimal tension.

[Sukotto]

Multi-Mongoloid ethnics NOT equate to " multi-cultural society ",Japan is mainly East Asian ( culturally and racially ) homogeneous society.


Perhaps I am jumping to conclusions with my statement there,
and should have said, "some say that...."

I did not know "multi-cultural" meant people had to look substantially different. No definition of "mult-cultural" I've ever heard of required such.
Take just Spanish speaking Latin America. There's so much diversity there.

Historically didn't people come not only from NorthEast Asia, but also from the south, including the Pacific?

There is population of Koreans,
Korea & Japan I would consider different cultures in any book.
And from what I understand Japanese, Chinese, and Korean cultures are
more different from each other than many European cultures are from each other.

And people of Okinawa and the Ainu have different traditional cultures
and are not exactly genetic clones of "mainlanders".


Based on that last sentance alone.
I think that supports Japan being multi-cultural, despite attempts to "Japanize" Okinawans.

[yukio_michael]

Perhaps I am jumping to conclusions with my statement there,
and should have said, "some say that...."You should probably never preface anything you say with the words, "some say [that]", it's a form often used by people who are trying to inject an opinion by phrasing it as if it were a type of citation.

"Some say that Japan has a great system for recognising and celebrating the ethnic minorities of its country."

It sounds like not just some person, but many people think this, regardless if it is actually true.

[Nana007]

In a perfect world it would be a multicuteral society, and races would live in harmony.

But its not a perfect world. And the perfect world wont happen anytime soon.

The U.S is seriously still segragrated in many many ways.

[Sukotto]

You should probably never preface anything you say with the words, "some say [that]", it's a form often used by people who are trying to inject an opinion by phrasing it as if it were a type of citation.

"Some say that Japan has a great system for recognising and celebrating the ethnic minorities of its country."

It sounds like not just some person, but many people think this, regardless if it is actually true.



AAAAHHHH!!!!
Am i becoming a mini-Faux news?

In the video "Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism"
they cover that extensively.
"some would say...." x 50k

"The people in this book _____ might say different"
is a better sentance.


The mono-culture thing of Japan is heard almost everywhere.
Including in Japanese laguage classes.
Classes about Japanese culture touch on the Ainu, Koreans, and Burakuman as being different groups, and sometimes Okinawa.
Is it mandated from the Japanese Ministry of Education to teach that Japan in mono-culture as they mandate that every class across the country be on the same page in the same books on the same day?
If so, maybe that goes towards what some of the scholars in the Multi-cultural Japan book are saying, saying Japan was mono-culture way back when, is a way of using political power today.
?

[ricecake]

The mono-culture thing of Japan is heard almost everywhere including in Japanese laguage classes.Classes about Japanese culture touch on the Ainu, Koreans, and Burakuman as being different groups, and sometimes Okinawa.





Absolutely correct to say Japan is one-culture as in culturally homogeneous with native Yamato population comprised of several Mongoloid ethnic-origins.

In America,there is Swiss-German " Amish " community proudly held onto culture and traditions of their European forebears.

[Sukotto]

Absolutely correct to say Japan is one-culture as in culturally homogeneous with native Yamato population comprised of several Mongoloid ethnic-origins.
In America,there is Swiss-German " Amish " community proudly held onto culture and traditions of their European forebears.


Maybe I'm missing something?
I would consider Swiss-German " Amish " a different culture
from Swiss-German non-Amish as well the rest of current day US cultures.

[zero g]

Personally we can get along as one so whatever... ^_^

[Karamuucho]

I'm half-way, but I'm against countries being "too" multi-cultural. The point (atleast for me) of enjoying a foreign country is the differences, and the good and bad of that country. In places like London (Brent, etc) where there are like, 3 fully English people, they've lost their own cultural significance, and the place is just a mix of everything in one area. While it's nice to have a mixed society, with people from all over with their ideas and experiences, having too many will make a place lose what was originally theirs (cryptic I know, sorry, haha).

[Sukotto]

The point (atleast for me) of enjoying a foreign country is the differences, and the good and bad of that country.

they've lost their own cultural significance, and the place is just a mix of everything in one area.

having too many will make a place lose what was originally theirs (cryptic I know, sorry, haha).


In the states this is sometimes blamed on the corporatization of everything.
McDonalds popping up every other block.
Every single town having the same shopping center.

I've heard stories of people from the US saying when they used to travel, just inside the US, it seemed like different parts of the country would have a different flavor. But now, they complain, it is the same everywhere.
~that is not a story from me. i am too young for that. it's always been corporate chain stores everywhere~

[yukio_michael]

AAAAHHHH!!!!
Am i becoming a mini-Faux news?

In the video "Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism"
they cover that extensively.
"some would say...." x 50k

"The people in this book _____ might say different"
is a better sentance.Oh yes, that is in Outfoxed... that's a pretty great documentary, until you realise that we're living in a world with that sort of Journalism... I think that sort of phraseology is also called "weasel words" on Wikipedia, in their guidelines for writing unbiased entries.

Anyways. If the percentages of the population in Japan are any indication, Japan seems to be a mono-cultural society--- There is however apparently enough of foreign element in Japan for there to be a dialogue about it from time to time... The foreign element is always seen as 'dangerous' regardless of what percentage of the population it represents, or its own innocence in actually commiting any sort of crime.

I think basically what you've stated is true--- that the idea of a homogenous culture is more important than the actual numbers... It's very much like 1984... If they keep repeating it, the people believe it... By erasing the identities of Koreans and Chinese they're doing the same sort of work as the Ministry of Truth. They are fictionalising their own nation in order to strengthen its unity, while at the same time fostering a deep ignorance of the grown up world of having to relate with people who may be from a different island than you.

[ricecake]

I'm against countries being "too" multi-cultural.While it's nice to have a mixed society,having too many will make a place lose what was originally theirs.





I hear you,that's exactly what has happened here in California with over 100 worldwide nationalities living in a three-ring circus.:(


It's utterly stupid and quite comical to think in reality we're living with peoples you never would visit their home country,and they're now possibly your neighbors,co-workers,classmates,you run into them where ever you go in many places through out the USA blah blah blah.:(


Most of us don't really like living with each other,no one dares say it openly in fear of being label as " racist ".A personal friend ( Asian ) of mine once angrily bitched out at my presence,America has TOO many different races and ethnicities.:(


We purchased 41 acres of bare land in Colorado's central-southeast region near the Rockie Mountains 2 years ago,plan on building a modest home there for our little escape ( retreat ).:-)

[Sukotto]

I hear you,that's exactly what has happened here in California with over 100 worldwide nationalities living in a three-ring circus.:(

Would the phrase or phenomena "culture clash" describe this?
But instead of just adapting to one culture, say moving to Japan,
it is many fold.

To me being from a relatively homogenous area it seems really boring and same here.


It's utterly stupid and quite comical to think in reality we're living with peoples you never would visit their home country,and they're now possibly your neighbors,co-workers,classmates,you run into them where ever you go in many places through out the USA

The result of empire?
"They are over 'here', because we (actually the gov't) was over 'there' "

[Goldiegirl]

Yes to a multicultural society as long as everyone follows the laws and is treated equally by the law (of his/her country). Plus keep religion out of the government. To me that seems to be the biggest problem with a multicultural society. People think their religion is their government. Separation of church and state makes a country more stable...and least thats how I feel.

[ricecake]

Would the phrase or phenomena "culture clash" describe this ?





In all honesty,majority of us basically suppress how we truly feel about other kinds living in a " superficial " multi-racial California and across the USA.

[ricecake]

To me being from a relatively homogenous area it seems really boring and same here.

The result of empire ? " They are over 'here', because we (actually the gov't) was over 'there' "





I am in dire pursue for such living environment,it's a breeze of fresh air surely.

Of-course,I came to this conclusion some years ago otherwise doors wouldn't have been widely swung open to millions.US troops over there around the globe guarding US interests,peoples from those US militarily dominated nations are here.

[Ma Cherie]

Multi-culturalism is a vague term. I think alot of people don't really know what it is. When people first hear the term they automatically assume that they're "forced" to like another culture. The same is true for the word diversity.

Although I do think there are conflicts with multi-culturalism. But lets examine a few things, do you feel that there should be support for underrepresented groups who are in politics? That is one element of multi-culturalism.

[Sukotto]

But lets examine a few things, do you feel that there should be support for underrepresented groups who are in politics? That is one element of multi-culturalism.


Somethings got to be done.

The current system doesn't do much for minority opinions of any kind at all.
If, say electoral politics - an election, were split 3 ways, 35%, 33%, & 32%, then that 35% wins and the rest get no say. So that means 65% do not
get to have input.
Or, more real world to our situation, about 50% of the eligible voters usually vote. 2 major parties. One wins half of that for a majority. That means about 25% of the population gets represented. The real is worse than the hypothetical.


That's about the same % of people that were considered people when the constitution was first written. Women, non-whites, non-property holders were not considered persons. oh, did i mention gays? They were given no say in writing the constitution (that is acknowledged). Later they were thrown a vote.



Today it is basically the same people that run things, mostly men, mostly white, and almost completely corporate. Hey, corporations are people too!
"hold on to your dignity" for this one:
http://www.poclad.org/images/illustrations/black_quote.jpg




We could hold a constitutional congress and write a new constitution; one that is more fair. There's been only 2 in US history so far, but even 'the system' says you can push reset.
We've (i've) just got to avoid prime time television (or all tele?)
We could look to some of the constitutions written by countries that were written after 'ours' to get new ideas. (really 'theirs'. it is their system. while i am a straight white male, i am not a property holder/corporate ceo, shareholder. so i should still probably stop talking and start more listening. yadda, yadda)

[Ma Cherie]

Sukotto I think you revealed what I was talking about. :cool:

Giving a voice to underrepresented groups is one element of multiculturalism. It is an ideology that allows people from distinct cultural backgrounds with equal rights and equal status. Multiculturalism would make sense for American society because we're an immigrant nation and that's why the word is applied.

But I can see flaws with it, I can understand how people are against multiculturalism because opponents of it feel that it undermines national identity and feel that allowing it is a threat to cultural heritage. But I'm in favor of it, because I feel that since we live in a society with all sorts of people from different backgrounds, we must make an effort to learn about them.

[Goldiegirl]

People should vote. If you don't vote don't complain. If you don't like the status quo become active in your party. You can't expect government(s), law(s) to change if you do nothing. Don't rely on others to make your voice heard.

[Ma Cherie]

People should vote. If you don't vote don't complain. If you don't like the status quo become active in your party. You can't expect government(s), law(s) to change if you do nothing. Don't rely on others to make your voice heard.


Yes that's true, but like I said there are still alot of underrepresented groups. Certian parties don't make the efffort to reach out to certian ethnic groups. It's not that simple to say "oh well just go and vote and things will change," because it takes more than that. I know this because I'm a minority, and within my community there is alot of pessimism.

[Goldiegirl]

I understand completely that voting doesn't necessarily get you what you want, but it does get you noticed. People are so lazy about voting. If everyone voted our government in the US would be more diverse. It's about getting minorities to vote, to understand if they all joined together they could make a difference. It's the apathy of letting the 'other guy' do it for me that makes our whole system of voting unbalanced. Stand up and be counted...it can only make you a winner...if not for your cause then just as an American doing your duty as a citizen.

[Sukotto]

I understand completely that voting doesn't necessarily get you what you want, but it does get you noticed. People are so lazy about voting. If everyone voted our government in the US would be more diverse. It's about getting minorities to vote, to understand if they all joined together they could make a difference. It's the apathy of letting the 'other guy' do it for me that makes our whole system of voting unbalanced. Stand up and be counted...it can only make you a winner...if not for your cause then just as an American doing your duty as a citizen.

"if voting ever changed anything, they'd make it illegal" ha!

I disagree that if you don't vote don't complain.
Voting is only one way to participate.
It is not the end all and be all of democracy or society.

Besides $ is what controls everything.
Corporations rule the world, and america definately.
Both major parties are parties of the corporations.

The corporation is a legal construct and basically reproduces
the culture moors and values of those that run it.
The very structure in and of itself.
It is basically the culture of the founders of the US
re-institutionalized in a legal 'private' structure.
(and actually it goes to before the founding of the US to kings)
But still a very Euro- institution.
Very non-multi-cultural.
The structure itself has its base from one culture.
The first ones were institutions of Euro-kings to extract wealth in his name.

So, both major parties wish to continue to reproduce
this sort of societal arrangement & culture.
Thus $ is a key factor in keeping the electoral political
system in their hands.
When you vote, you vote for accepted choices of $;
the corporations that give so much $ to usually both parties.

Voting is only one way to participate.
Besides electoral politics,

How else can we work towards a multi-cultural democracy?


Sorry if that sounds kind of out there.
But it kind of looks that way to me.

[Goldiegirl]

you can write in anyone of your choosing on the ballot. as for the rest HUH? Maybe I am just tired...

[Sukotto]

No. Sorry.

My fault. An old obsession with corporations.

"Multinational Monitor" might be a good place to start.
The "poclad" link above to the cartoon might be another.


Hurray for multi-culturalism!
Sugoi!
Nihongo suki desu yo!

[Ma Cherie]

Keep in mind when discussing multiculturalism, we're not only talking about race. :relief:

[Elizabeth]

Yes that's true, but like I said there are still alot of underrepresented groups. Certian parties don't make the efffort to reach out to certian ethnic groups.As close as elections are becoming here, I'm sure any group that votes in large numbers and is seen as competitive even without the money will stir a lot of politician's interest. Minorities may have a negative attitude towards voting if they believe the system is rigged against them or all votes are not counted fairly but that's getting further afield from the original question...:blush:

[sabro]

I love the mix of ethnicities and cultures in California. I love the people. I love the food. I love the festivals and art and holidays. I'm Japanese-European American. My wife is Mexican and Creole. I have friends from every continent on the planet and we get along famously. I see no reason to complain.

[ArmandV]

We could hold a constitutional congress and write a new constitution; one that is more fair.

Life isn't fair. The fair's in Pomona.*



[*Los Angeles County]

[Sukotto]

Life isn't fair. The fair's in Pomona.*
[*Los Angeles County]


ha!



But
doesn't the whole concept of "justice" (which the US system is supposedly supposed to be based upon) sort of imply "fairness"?
Or maybe that's what "justice" is supposed to mean.

and not just, those that broke the law got caught and received a guilty
verdict that resulted in x punishment. Thus "justice was served".

The classic example of "helping the slave escape".
That was once illegal in the US. Those that helped them escape, if
caught could be fined or jailed or whatever. If found guilty, wouldn't we
presume the person who "owned" the slave might say something like,
"justice was served today".

But of course we now look back at this in utter disgust and disdain.
And recognize that it was not "justice" that was served
in that type of case, and certainly not "fairness".


Or maybe the entire US system is unfair,
and thus unjust.

[Goldiegirl]

Justice was served at that time. Our ideas of justice and equality have changed. We can't judge the past by todays standards. Anyway I am sure this is slightly off topic. But to mulitculturalsim I still say Yay!!

[Sukotto]

Oh yes, that is in Outfoxed... that's a pretty great documentary, until you realise that we're living in a world with that sort of Journalism...



i agree. the documentary Manufacturing Consent can elaborte more.
it's little old, 1994?, but still applicable.

here's a trailer
Manufacturing Consent (http://youtube.com/watch?v=7LVsiP0s33A)

[twinklestar]

Undoubtedly,we all support multi-culturalism as long as not in our backyard:bluush:

[MRC1]

I remember when Las Vegas was not multicultural some thrity years ago but now it is. Back then our population was 75,000 people in the valley, now there is over 2 million, people have to live some where. However I just don't like the over crowding and the lost of the country side which was desert and allot of fun for doing things like riding horses, motorcycles, dunebuggies, target shooting, looking at wild life, which is rapidly disappearing. I not bitter but I miss all the things I used to do here on a regular basis.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

I think that ultimately, any society that has accumulated people from other cultures will evolve into a new single culture. Look at the USA. It is very multi-ethnic, very multi-religious, but it has evolved into a strongly definied culture. It has clearer rules and more stereotypes than many European cultures. I think that a strong single culture is what is needed to make many different people live easily together.

Too different cultures living side by side create tensions and resentments. Look at Belgium where I live. The two cultural groups, French and Dutch, can't agree on most political subjects anymore. The USA is much more mixed ethnically, but does not have such problems because there is only one system and one culture.

The Roman Empire assimilated all kinds of people, but forced them to adopt their way of life, their language, their culture. It worked well for centuries, until new immigrants from the East refused to adapt and broke the single culture system.

In general, immigrants who adapt to the new culture are welcome and don't cause trouble. The ones who keep their culture in the new country cause tensions, resentment from the locals, and inevitably conflicts.

[Homerduff]

Every day when I go to college, I need to take a bus to the train station in the centre of the city. There's this particular bus stop where lots of immigrants get on. It's like the border of another country (close to the city). Every day I hear tons of different languages, and I see all ethnic races on the streets. In some way I like this. These people have a different and most of the time more interesting background then native Belgians. It's like you have the feeling you're not in Belgium.

Too bad some of these people lack discipline and earge of education. These youngsters only hang out on the streets, looking for a fight or a theft. I don't blame the youngsters, it's their parents that should be penalised. It's just that they still stick to their traditional culture which is maybe less protective towards kids then ours.

[Sarapva]

I also like the diversity of people here. Anywhere you go you can hear a different language being spoken. I think the U.S. is becoming like Quebec, Canada, except that instead of French the second language is Spanish. It seems that most labels on things are in English and Spanish, with electronic equipment you have the option of using Spanish or English, and now even telephone recordings are done in both languages.

And then there are probably thousands of sub-culture groups. I like thinking that we're all learning about each other and how to get along together, instead of keeping separate. The more cultures or nationalities there are in one place, the less chance there is of those countries fighting each other.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

The more cultures or nationalities there are in one place, the less chance there is of those countries fighting each other.

Oh yeah ? Then come to Belgium, you'd be surprised.

[SushiShin]

I travel each day in a place what they call in Belgium (Borgerokko or Morrocan Street) They're are few Native Belgians and more Morrocan. Every day there is something wrong here, if it isn't a car that is been demolished then its a fight if it isn't a fight then it's a robbery.

No wonder people like to fight each other here in Belgium.

What i really despite is that there aren't much japanese families here.
Im trying to my best to poll the families here in Belgium(Flanders Antwerp,Mechels,Brussels)

[Skullcrushergurl]

I just want to know who are the 9 against multicultural-ness!
I of course am all for it. I hate being around one race. Too many blacks make me uncomfortable, same thing with whites or asians. I thrive on diversity.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

I just want to know who are the 9 against multicultural-ness!
I of course am all for it. I hate being around one race. Too many blacks make me uncomfortable, same thing with whites or asians. I thrive on diversity.

I am one of them. I like a certain level of racial diversity. I am not adverse to live in a country where I am in a racial minority. But too many different cultures in one society is bound to cause problems.

What you didn't get from the question is that race does not equal culture. A black American (like Will Smith or Tiger Woods) does not have the same culture as a Black African.

Take 100 White Americans, 100 Black Americans and 100 Asian Americans, all with the same American culture, and things will go smoothly (hopefully). Replace the 100 of one race with 100 from their continent of origin (from various countries to spice it up) and you will see that it is all much more difficult in everyday life.

So I wonder, who are the 22 other people who voted FOR ?

[RegDunlap]

I've got nothing in particular against multiculturalism.

As long as the rule of law is followed, great. IT must be remembered that the host culture takes precedence.

Also, as long as my tax dollars dont get spent to promote it. If people want to promote their own culture, theya are free to do so.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

I've got nothing in particular against multiculturalism.
As long as the rule of law is followed, great. IT must be remembered that the host culture takes precedence.
Also, as long as my tax dollars dont get spent to promote it. If people want to promote their own culture, theya are free to do so.

Even if their culture means the destruction of yours ? Would you be ok with Islamist promoting the idea of a state ruled by the values of Islam only ? This is one of the danger of multiculturalism. An alien culture can damage or even replace the host culture over time. It has happened in many societies in history.

[RegDunlap]

Even if their culture means the destruction of yours ? Would you be ok with Islamist promoting the idea of a state ruled by the values of Islam only ? This is one of the danger of multiculturalism. An alien culture can damage or even replace the host culture over time. It has happened in many societies in history.I think following the rule of law would preclude that from happening. I'm fine with Islamists promoting their ideas,as long as it stops at the promoting stage and they follow the law of the land as long as they are in residence.

[leonmarino]

I think following the rule of law would preclude that from happening. I'm fine with Islamists promoting their ideas,as long as it stops at the promoting stage and they follow the law of the land as long as they are in residence.No it does not, I think. We -whether we want it or not- live in a democracy. If a country gets flooded with other-minded people (I wish to refrain from pointing to a specific group), they will democratically get their way. It is harder to imagine that all these new-comers will adapt without any problem to the host culture.

[RegDunlap]

It depends on the newcomers, how many are let it, and also on the cultural confidence of the host culture.

Unfortunately, multi ethnic and multi cultural nations tend to fail. Look at the breakups of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. Also, the splitting of Czechoslovakia, the potential splitting of Belgium, etc. Tribalism seems rampant. The US worked because newcomers were strongly encouraged to become part of the national fabric within a generation.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

Unfortunately, multi ethnic and multi cultural nations tend to fail. Look at the breakups of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. Also, the splitting of Czechoslovakia, the potential splitting of Belgium, etc. Tribalism seems rampant. The US worked because newcomers were strongly encouraged to become part of the national fabric within a generation.

I think that you are really mixing up multi-ethnicity and multi-culturalism.

Czechoslovakia was not a multi-ethnic country. Czech and Slovak languages and cultures are also very very close, so the split was mainly a matter of economy and dare I say "tribalism".

Belgium is multi-cultural (French vs Dutch cultures), but not multi-ethnic, except Brussels which has a majority of non-ethnic Belgians.

The US is multi-ethnic but not really multicultural, in the sense that there are no major regional differences. We could argue that culture in New Mexico is quite different from that of Massachussets, but there is such a thing as a common American culture in all states. In Belgium there is a clear cultural gap between French and Dutch speakers. The media are separate, education is separate, political parties are separate, and so on.

[RegDunlap]

I think that you are really mixing up multi-ethnicity and multi-culturalism.
Czechoslovakia was not a multi-ethnic country. Czech and Slovak languages and cultures are also very very close, so the split was mainly a matter of economy and dare I say "tribalism".
Belgium is multi-cultural (French vs Dutch cultures), but not multi-ethnic, except Brussels which has a majority of non-ethnic Belgians.
The US is multi-ethnic but not really multicultural, in the sense that there are no major regional differences. We could argue that culture in New Mexico is quite different from that of Massachussets, but there is such a thing as a common American culture in all states. In Belgium there is a clear cultural gap between French and Dutch speakers. The media are separate, education is separate, political parties are separate, and so on.
So, multi ethnic countries tend to do well, as long as the various ethnic groups generally conform to an accepted common culture? Yeah, I'd buy that. It is a very rare situation, though. In many/most multicultural countries, ethnic groups retain far too much of their indigenous culture.

[centrajapan]

No it does not, I think. We -whether we want it or not- live in a democracy. If a country gets flooded with other-minded people (I wish to refrain from pointing to a specific group), they will democratically get their way. It is harder to imagine that all these new-comers will adapt without any problem to the host culture.

No culture is static. A society is constantly changing. Peoples opinions and minds also change.

[leonmarino]

In many/most multicultural countries, ethnic groups retain far too much of their indigenous culture.That's a correct observation, and there are a few reasons for that I believe.

First, a majority of immigrants are of a lower socio-economic class, which is highly correlated with a low level of education. In Holland, many of the workers that were invited from Morroco and Turkey were illiterate or had only finished elementary education. Because of this lack of education, these people had/have a hard time accepting new ideas, and tend to stick to their old habits and beliefs, which are often very conservative in lower socio-economic classes.

Second, and I'm not too sure about the scientific literature on this but I have a hunch that people that move away from a country tends to stick to their culture, perhaps even more than the inhabitants of the home country. An example is the Japanese writing system and the Kanji's they use in Taiwan, which are actually closer to the original characters compared to the simplified characters on mainland China.

There is actually one book that I read, Collapse (Jared Diamond) which is about the decline of many cultures, and people that failed to adapt to their new environment. I like the example of the Vikings that went to Greenland and basically starved to death because of their reluctance to eat seal meat, while the more native people (inuit) were eating their bellies full. While they were starving themselves, they did update their burial customs to the customs of their home land; findings revealed that changes in the way the hands of the dead were crossed over their bodies were introduced pretty much simultaneously in far away Greenland.

If I have to give a explanation on this phenomenon I would point to the direction of organization theory and sense-making. People form customs, habits and also cognitive short-cuts to make their lives easier and efficient in their home-country. When these people are suddenly in a new environment with a different way of doing things they do not understand, they need to fall back on these customs to make sense of what's happening around them.

Anyways, to make a long story short, my guess that immigrants for some reason have to compensate on the geographical distance by sticking to their culture more. Of course, as I pointed out before, the level of education plays a big role in this too; education makes people more adaptive to new cultures.

[centrajapan]

There must be a reason why the Netherlands opened up their borders at one stage.

[leonmarino]

There must be a reason why the Netherlands opened up their borders at one stage.Sure. It was because they believed they needed the cheap labor..

[Ma Cherie]

Has anyone on this thread made an attempt to understand the term "multiculturalism?"

Just wondering, because in actuality there is no real definition of what multiculturalism is.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

So, multi ethnic countries tend to do well, as long as the various ethnic groups generally conform to an accepted common culture? Yeah, I'd buy that. It is a very rare situation, though. In many/most multicultural countries, ethnic groups retain far too much of their indigenous culture.

It depends how much time you give to immigrants to adapt. Even 100 years ago, France was an extremely multi-ethnic country with a strong centralised culture. Historically France has been a land welcoming immigrants from all Europe. There are many French of Russian, Polish, German, Romanian, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Jewish or even Armenian origin. I read that two third of the French citizen (born in France) have at least one foreign ancestors if we go back to 4 or 5 generations.

[Skullcrushergurl]

Has anyone on this thread made an attempt to understand the term "multiculturalism?"
Just wondering, because in actuality there is no real definition of what multiculturalism is.
I think "multiculturalism" is bringing different cultures together. example Muslim people being bought together with Hindu people. Am I right?
Where as , mulitietnice is just differenct races (as in America)perhaps I didn't make it clear in my first post because I was thinking in general. Guess I meant multi ethnic.....I wouldn't dare call then the same.:blush:

[A ke bono kane kotto]

I think "multiculturalism" is bringing different cultures together. example Muslim people being bought together with Hindu people. Am I right?

Religion is only one facet of culture. Language, food, values, lifestyle, customs and traditions make for a bigger part.

[centrajapan]

Sure. It was because they believed they needed the cheap labor..

Right. Therefore the Netherlands together with most European countries opened up their borders because there was a labour shortage. In that sense it was a good deal for both.

edited

I don't look at it as a problem that Norway opened up their borders. I believe immigrants have enrichened the Norwegain culture with their presence. Call me naive. I think if you treat others with respect you will be respected back. A mutual respect. If you don't give respect people will take that respect into their own hands. A good economy probably helps too to be able to have a stable society. Look at France. Out in the suburbs there are all these rioting going on. Alot of it has to do with high unimployement and a bad economy. People get frustrated and start looking at people who they can blame on. It's the same in USA. Crime, violence is often linked with poverty which leads to frustration so people start taking matters into own hands.

[MadamePapillon]

Multiculturalism is good, most people would agree with that, but I think most problems concerning a TO diverse culture comes when it happens to fast and with to little thought.
Using where I live as an example...

I personally think it becomes a problem when the sheer number and volumes of immigrants actually begins to change the country they are immigrating to. By change, I mean, many people move from overseas to come live here but instead of trying to adopt to Canada they try to change it into their home countrys.

I just think it's ridiculous when people come over, making only the bare minimum effort to learn english, live in pocket societys, and complain about the lack of Canada accomodating their cultures and languages. Or having it so that immigrants actually get special privileges that the native citizens arent allowed just because it was a part of their culture back home.

My bank is a prime example. When you first put in your pin number to get out money, usually the main, bold text would be english because this is an english language country...instead it's in chinese with english as the small text. The area I live in doesn't even have a large asian population.

It can get scary when you walk into an area of your own country and the vast majority of the signs and posters are in a language you don't understand. To feel like a foreigner in your own country, it can be intimidating and threatening and I think it crosses the line to where we've become TO accomodating. I'll admit I'm starting to get kind of angry and bitter over it, simply for the fact that it feels like Canada, it culture and people, are being pushed aside in favor of supporting the vast immigrant population.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

I don't look at it as a problem that Norway opened up their borders. I believe immigrants have enrichened the Norwegain culture with their presence.

It depends which ones. How much do you want of Congolese culture to enter your daily life ?

Call me naive. I think if you treat others with respect you will be respected back.

You probably have never lived in a place with a lot of Arab immigrants.

A mutual respect. If you don't give respect people will take that respect into their own hands. A good economy probably helps too to be able to have a stable society. Look at France. Out in the suburbs there are all these rioting going on. Alot of it has to do with high unimployement and a bad economy.

Do you think that the same Arab immigrants would be in employment if they moved to Norway ? Then you are naive. France has a high unemployment because it has a lot of lazy immigrants who don't want to work as long as they get minimum social security. The youth rioting in Paris has little to do with unemployment (most are under 18), but bad education from the parents and complete misadaptation to the host culture. If the parents are unemployed you would expect them to have more time to take care of their children. Hardly the case.

[centrajapan]

Norway has hardly any unimployement. We are talking about something like....2-3%..?
Its the wealthiest country in Europe and probably the easiest place in Europe to get a job. Oslo is farily multi cultural. It is not as multi cultural as Paris. I would assume it is somewhere in the middle in European terms.

Norway took in immigration from Pakistan, Middle East, North Africa, Turkey in the 60s. Pakistanis are tha largest non European minority.

You can reads about Oslo's trendy Pakistani hotspot.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3676176.stm

Norway being a small country with a strong economy. Things are stable here. Things could change but I hope it stays like it is now.

[leonmarino]

Do you think that the same Arab immigrants would be in employment if they moved to Norway ? Then you are naive. France has a high unemployment because it has a lot of lazy immigrants who don't want to work as long as they get minimum social security. The youth rioting in Paris has little to do with unemployment (most are under 18), but bad education from the parents and complete misadaptation to the host culture. If the parents are unemployed you would expect them to have more time to take care of their children. Hardly the case.Well that's a bit too black-and-white in my opinion. Although I am not certain about the situation in France, I can tell you about the situation in Holland.

The immigrants were brought here (many were officialy invited by the government through deals with the home countries) to work in the lower end of the economy. In the case of Holland, many were set to work in factories, mainly textiles and shipbuilding. The reason they needed the cheap labor was because these industries were protected by the government, either for national security reasons or through lobbies by the big men in the industry. In retrospect, it would have been better to outsource these activities to lower-wage countries like in Asia, but that was a pretty uncommon idea back then (the 60's and 70's).

But as time went by, these industries became unsustainable, and many companies went bankrupt, or outsourced their activities after all. The workers became jobless, and because of many disadvantageous reasons, they were unable to find work (lack of experience, lack of language skills, lack of education and discrimination). And so many landed in the social security circuit, living on a hand-out. Who would you blame here? I'd blame the government that was only after short-term benefits, protecting national industries through cheaper labor instead of upgrading its efficiency by investments in innovation and technology.

Sure, there were also a lot of trouble with the regularization of illegal immigrants and many were granted full citizenship without having the official right. Some have indeed come to the country to try and profit from the Dutch welfare state. However, it would be too easy to say that all these people are too lazy to work and just riot for fun. Many have come here with good intentions, but because of a lack of support and education facilities, many are stranded in a situation far from ideal. Far from ideal for Holland and its native population, but also for the immigrants themselves.

[Tsuyoiko]

Nothing you can say about immigrants applies to every single one of them and anything you say applies just as well to some natives too. Sure, some immigrants come here (wherever here is) to exploit the benefit system, but a lot of natives exploit it too. I agree with Leonmarino - I seriously doubt anyone comes to the UK with the sole intention to cause trouble! They come here to improve their lives, and when that doesn't happen, they get dissatisfied. Which in a minority of cases might lead to 'trouble'.

[Sukotto]

Nothing you can say about immigrants applies to every single one of them and anything you say applies just as well to some natives too.
They come here to improve their lives, and when that doesn't happen, they get dissatisfied.

Plus the world is still trying to recover from the age of imperialism/colonialism,
but currently the US won't let it (I'm stretching this to post-WW2 to today and not being a fan of the old USSR, btw).

So no wonder people leave their homes to find a more peaceful and 'wealthy' place. People living in the outskirts of the empire are always more at risk of being shot or starving to death. While living in 'homeland' one is usually safer and relatively well fed.