this sentence sounds not right...

[maxchu]

Hi all,
I saw a sentence

山田さんは　もう　かえったと　思います。

Apply the grammar I know, it means

yamada san thinks that he has got home already

which sounds not right to me.

Anybody please help me correct it.

TIA.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Actually, my first thought was that the actual subject of the sentence was not Yamada, but rather an unspecified "I". In other words,

"I think that Yamada has already gone home."

[maxchu]

Actually, my first thought was that the actual subject of the sentence was not Yamada, but rather an unspecified "I". In other words,
"I think that Yamada has already gone home."
Thanks for the response. I thought the grammar was like
Subject は　something　と　おもいます　
means
subject thinks about something.

I guess I got it wrong...:relief:

How do I say "yamada san thinks about going to japan" then?
TIA.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Thanks for the response. I thought the grammar was like
Subject は　something　と　おもいます　
means
subject thinks about something.
I guess I got it wrong...:relief:
How do I say "yamada san thinks about going to japan" then?
TIA.
Your understanding of the grammar is not incorrect. It's just that in actual use, things tend to get more complicated. In the original sentence there was an 'understood subject' of I. At least, if there is this understood subject, the sentence makes perfect sense. If the intended subject is Yamada, then you are correct, the sentence is a little strange.

You can think of it like this:
（私は）山田さんはもうかえったとおもいます。

Here the first は　marks the subject, even though it is not explicitly stated. Then the second one marks the subject of the subclause, "Yamada-san already went home." Does that make any sense?

To answer your new question, I must first ask you, is Yamada-san from Japan? Or is he a citizen of another country? Because if he is returning to Japan you use a different verb than if he is simply just going to Japan. Sorry to nitpick!

How about this:

山田さんは、日本にかえることをかんがえています。

This assumes that Yamada is a Japanese citizen returning to Japan. I used a different verb here for think about because in this context omoimasu seems strange to me.

Hope this helps!

[leonmarino]

How about this:
山田さんは、日本にかえることをかんがえています。
This assumes that Yamada is a Japanese citizen returning to Japan. I used a different verb here for think about because in this context omoimasu seems strange to me.Mikawa-san, your explanation and final example is very correct. Although intuitively I'd say:
「山田さんは日本にかえりたいとおもってます。」
(Literally: Yamada-san thinks he wants to go back to Japan.)
It is not an exact translation of "Yamada-san thinks about going to Japan" and I don't know why, but that one sounds more "natural" to me.. :relief:

[Cue]

Hmm, how about:
山田さんは日本に帰ろうと思っています。
or
山田さんは日本への帰省を考えています。（ちょっと変？）

Leon, that sentence is correct and sounds very natural to me too, but...
we don't know if Yamada san wants to go back or not... no? ^^;
Let's ask yamada san first! xD

And Mikawa san, excellent explanation. (As always!) ;-)

Cue

[Mikawa Ossan]

I chose the most literal translation I could think of, because it's unclear (as Cue pointed out) his intentions. My translation intentionally didn't express any desire on Yamada's part. I suppose that is kind of strange, though, huh?

[Elizabeth]

Your understanding of the grammar is not incorrect. It's just that in actual use, things tend to get more complicated. In the original sentence there was an 'understood subject' of I. At least, if there is this understood subject, the sentence makes perfect sense. If the intended subject is Yamada, then you are correct, the sentence is a little strange.
You can think of it like this:
（私は）山田さんはもうかえったとおもいます。
Here the first は　marks the subject, even though it is not explicitly stated. Then the second one marks the subject of the subclause, "Yamada-san already went home." Does that make any sense?
When I was first starting my studies I would always use が for the subclause to distinguish the actual topic of I and the subject being thought about in おもう、かんがえ type sentences. When I discovered both were sometimes は it became very, very confusing :mad: and still remains so. All I hope most of the time is that I try to make my intent clear from the context, such as in the given example. :relief:

[Glenn]

Yeah, and along a similar line, I sometimes wonder if I omit too much, expecting it to be clear from context.

[Elizabeth]

Hmm, how about:
山田さんは日本に帰ろうと思っています。
or
山田さんは日本への帰省を考えています。（ちょっと変 ？）
Leon, that sentence is correct and sounds very natural to me too, but...
we don't know if Yamada san wants to go back or not... no? ^^;
Let's ask yamada san first! xD
And Mikawa san, excellent explanation. (As always!) ;-)
Cue
帰ろうと思っています。would have been my first attempt as well, although Miwaka's correct it is for someone "returning to" who "is thinking about" or "is considering" their options. "Thinks of going to" doesn't give the impression to me of a citizen of Japan but rather a foreigner that thinks now and again, on occasion, about a trip to the country. :bluush:

[Cue]

I sometimes wonder if I omit too much, expecting it to be clear from context.
So, you're becoming very Japanese. ^_^

Omitting subject often happens in a casual conversation,
山田さん、もう帰ったとおもう
山田さん、もう帰ったとおもう？
The first one's subject is "I". "I think Yamada san has already left."
The second one's subject is "You". "Do you think Yamada san has already left?/Do you think Yamada san has left yet?"
When you are speaking, it's sometimes hard to see if a question mark is there or not. It's confusing to me, too. -_-;

[maxchu]

Your understanding of the grammar is not incorrect. It's just that in actual use, things tend to get more complicated. In the original sentence there was an 'understood subject' of I. At least, if there is this understood subject, the sentence makes perfect sense. If the intended subject is Yamada, then you are correct, the sentence is a little strange.
You can think of it like this:
（私は）山田さんはもうかえったとおもいます。
Here the first は　marks the subject, even though it is not explicitly stated. Then the second one marks the subject of the subclause, "Yamada-san already went home." Does that make any sense?

Yes. Your explanation is very clear. :cool:
To answer your new question, I must first ask you, is Yamada-san from Japan? Or is he a citizen of another country? Because if he is returning to Japan you use a different verb than if he is simply just going to Japan. Sorry to nitpick!
How about this:
山田さんは、日本にかえることをかんがえています。
This assumes that Yamada is a Japanese citizen returning to Japan. I used a different verb here for think about because in this context omoimasu seems strange to me.
Hope this helps!
I came up with this example just to ask how to put the Subject into this grammar, and I didn't think too much of detail. :p
In my impression, I think yamada san is in USA now, and he is thinking about visiting Japan...:blush:

Thanks a lot. :)

[leonmarino]

Leon, that sentence is correct and sounds very natural to me too, but...
we don't know if Yamada san wants to go back or not... no? ^^;ふむふむ。Let's ask yamada san first! xDYeah let's give 'em a call!! :D

- sorry for this non-value-adding post - :p

[Mikawa Ossan]

I came up with this example just to ask how to put the Subject into this grammar, and I didn't think too much of detail. :p
In my impression, I think yamada san is in USA now, and he is thinking about visiting Japan...:blush:
Thanks a lot. :)
No problem!

So Yamada is an American citizen? Then you wouldn't use かえる, but you could use いく or おとずれる instead. :wave:

[maxchu]

ふむふむ。Yeah let's give 'em a call!! :D
- sorry for this non-value-adding post - :p

Ha...Thanks for your post too. And Cue, Elizabeth, Glenn. You guys make this forum friendly, helpful, and interesting. :(

No problem!
So Yamada is an American citizen? Then you wouldn't use かえる, but you could use いく or おとずれる instead. :wave:

Ha I am not sure if Yamada san is a citizen or not...:relief:

So I can say

山田さんは　日本へ　いくと　思って　います。

right? :-)

[Mikawa Ossan]

So I can say
山田さんは　日本へ　いくと　思って　います。
right? :-)
Well, without splitting hairs, I think you can say that. As others have said, it would be better to use いこう　instead of いく if he's thinking that he wants to go.

Keep making sentences! It's a great way to learn! :cool:

[maxchu]

Well, without splitting hairs, I think you can say that. As others have said, it would be better to use いこう　instead of いく if he's thinking that he wants to go.
Keep making sentences! It's a great way to learn! :cool:
いこう？I don't know how to use it...I have not learnt that kind of grammar yet. Seems to me
いく　becomes いこう
and
帰る　becomes 帰ろう
What's the difference between them? :)　I am still very beginer...

[Mikawa Ossan]

OK! If you don't know いこう then いく is fine!

The いこう form of a verb is a little hard to describe both succintly and accurately at the same time, but I'll do my best.

At a very basic level, saying いこう means, "Let's go!"

If you've learned です and 〜ます grammar fairly well, then いこう is the same as いきましょう.

Of course "Let's ...." is a clumsy translation in our example 山田さんはにほんにいこうとおもっています。 But that's just how it goes I guess.

The important thing is that いく is just a plain "go" or "will go", but いこう shows intent, because that is really what that grammar conveys: intent. "Let's ..." is just an attempt at expressing that idea of intent in English.

Does this make any sense? I'm sorry, but it's been a while since I learned this myself, so I don't remember if there were any better explanations than this for this grammar.

Incidentally, you are right that いく becomes いこう and 帰る becomes 帰ろう. Some more examples:

たべる　　　　たべよう
いれる　　　　いれよう
のむ　　　　　のもう
よむ　　　　　よもう
かう　　　　かおう
くう　　　　くおう
やる　　　　やろう
とまる　　　とまろう

[MrWabu]

My understanding is, in Japanese you can't directly say what other people are thinking or feeling (because you can't read their minds), so you need to dereference what you are saying somehow. So 「山田さんは日本に行こうと思っています」 would be better written as something like 「山田さんは日本に行こうと思っていると言いました」.

Another way of saying it that hasn't been mentioned would be:
「山田さんは日本に行きたがる」
Which would mean something along the lines of: "Mr Yamada appears to want to go to Japan" (maybe because you saw him reading a travel book about Japan).

I'm curious to know, if Mr Yamada was a Japanese citizen (although maxchu says he's not, pretend he is), then wouldn't 戻る be a better verb than 帰る? (Assuming Mr Yamada's main home is in Japan)

[Elizabeth]

My understanding is, in Japanese you can't directly say what other people are thinking or feeling (because you can't read their minds), so you need to dereference what you are saying somehow. So 「山田さんは日本に行こうと思っています」 would be better written as something like 「山田さんは日本に行こうと思っていると言いました」 .
Omotte iru is fine for describing the thoughts and feelings of another person.

Kaeru is definately better than modoru if that is where his subjectively defined "primary" home is (friends, family etc.) Of course many citizens living overseas will call both their true and adapted countries "kaeru." The criteria are not steadfast but for a citizen anything else sounds very curious to me.

[maxchu]

OK! If you don't know いこう then いく is fine!
The いこう form of a verb is a little hard to describe both succintly and accurately at the same time, but I'll do my best.
At a very basic level, saying いこう means, "Let's go!"
If you've learned です and 〜ます grammar fairly well, then いこう is the same as いきましょう.
Of course "Let's ...." is a clumsy translation in our example 山田さんはにほんにいこうとおもっています。 But that's just how it goes I guess.
The important thing is that いく is just a plain "go" or "will go", but いこう shows intent, because that is really what that grammar conveys: intent. "Let's ..." is just an attempt at expressing that idea of intent in English.
Does this make any sense? I'm sorry, but it's been a while since I learned this myself, so I don't remember if there were any better explanations than this for this grammar.
Incidentally, you are right that いく becomes いこう and 帰る becomes 帰ろう. Some more examples:
たべる　　　　たべよう
いれる　　　　いれよう
のむ　　　　　のもう
よむ　　　　　よもう
かう　　　　かおう
くう　　　　くおう
やる　　　　やろう
とまる　　　とまろう

Thanks for the explanation. It's good enough for me to understand for now. :)
At least I know いこう　means "let's go". :-)

[Glenn]

Another way of saying it that hasn't been mentioned would be:
「山田さんは日本に行きたがる」
Which would mean something along the lines of: "Mr Yamada appears to want to go to Japan" (maybe because you saw him reading a travel book about Japan).

Adding to what Elizabeth said, from what I was told by one of my teachers using the 〜がる form (I get the feeling 〜がっている is better here) has the nuance of showing that the person has been antsy about doing something, in this case going to Japan. For instance, the person is constantly reading travel books about Japan, saying that he wants to go to Japan, talking about where in Japan he wants to go, etc.

[Elizabeth]

Adding to what Elizabeth said, from what I was told by one of my teachers using the 〜がる form (I get the feeling 〜がっている is better here) has the nuance of showing that the person has been antsy about doing something, in this case going to Japan. For instance, the person is constantly reading travel books about Japan, saying that he wants to go to Japan, talking about where in Japan he wants to go, etc.
がる　I think of as close to "looks" or "appears" like, showing signs not necessarily of being antsy but clearly expressing an emotional state, need or desire. Isn't it used a lot for animals or children that act out because they can't communicate for themselves in words ? I think 知りたがる for instance is fine for anyone showing a strong need or demand for information or うれしがっています (looks happy) 恥ずかしがっている　(looks embarrassed), etc.

[MrWabu]

Thanks for the input Glenn and Elizabeth. I only had one lesson regarding がる and it was rarely mentioned after so you seem to have cleared up some pointers.

[Glenn]

がる　I think of as close to "looks" or "appears" like, showing signs not necessarily of being antsy but clearly expressing an emotional state, need or desire. Isn't it used a lot for animals or children that act out because they can't communicate for themselves in words ? I think 知りたがる for instance is fine for anyone showing a strong need or demand for information or うれしがっています (looks happy) 恥ずかしがっている　(looks embarrassed), etc.


Not sure about who it's most commonly used about.

Well, my teacher made it sound as though the person was showing strong outward signs of whatever the word with 〜がる is, so that's why I said be antsy. For isntance, うれしがっています makes me think of someone who can't stop smiling ear to ear, and 恥ずかしがっている makes me think of someone who has turned red in the face and is shying away from making eye contact or even facing anyone. That's the impression I get about it.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Just to put my 2 cents in, I think Glenn's description of がる is closer to what I've seen in use, although "antsy" may be too strong a word...

[Glenn]

Yeah, I was trying to sum up and translate, and that was the best I could do at the time. But it's good to know that I wasn't too far off.

[Elizabeth]

Not sure about who it's most commonly used about.
Well, my teacher made it sound as though the person was showing strong outward signs of whatever the word with 〜がる is, so that's why I said be antsy. For isntance, うれしがっています makes me think of someone who can't stop smiling ear to ear, and 恥ずかしがっている makes me think of someone who has turned red in the face and is shying away from making eye contact or even facing anyone. That's the impression I get about it.
Yes, that is my understanding as well. Sorry if there was any miscommunication. :? The condition of showing visible signs of a state of mind or emotion.

[Glenn]

Oh, I was mostly trying to clear up the "antsy" thing. Seems I really botched up my word choice there. :blush::bluush:

[Mikawa Ossan]

But in your defense, Glenn, I don't think I could come up with a better word if I tried.:p