Goodbye JREF

[senseiman]

I've been a poster here for three years and have enjoyed the debates I have had with many posters.

Yesterday I made a post on this thread:

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27400

There was nothing offensive about the post and it was on-topic. I spent a good deal of time and thought crafting the post and looked forward to discussing it. When I came back today, my post and a lot of others had been deleted, apparently because they were embarassing to the person who started the thread.

When I asked for an explanation and apology for this, the only response I got was an infraction.

This will be my last post here. I will delete my account and never visit this site again. To those whose posts I have enjoyed reading and discussing various things with I say goodbye.

To the people who run this site I suggest you reign in the moderator in question.

Edited to note that I cannot figure out how to delete my account, so I would appreciate it if the moderators could do that for me.

[DoctorP]

Don't leave. Trust me...the person in question has made me feel like leaving before also.

I only stay because there must be someone here to act as a voice of reason...and to help keep him in check...otherwise what would the forum become?

[miki78]

Ow my God don't leave this is awful

For every bad thing there is a 100 good things

Don't leave becouse of one argument

I hope whomever coused this disagremant is mighty sorry

[leonmarino]

Man o man o man.. :(

Please, do NOT leave!!

I, personally, hate that thread. It is very much denigrating toward Japanese people, its history and its education system. One can have a certain opinion about any of those, but for some reason I can see that particular thread as Japan-bashing and total flame bait only.

By considering "Japanese ignorance" (with a heavily negative connotation) as a stand-alone feature of the Japanese people, disregarding its isolationistic period for hundreds of years in the past, it can not be the basis of a fruitful discussion. Especially when (allegedly) posts are being deleted at free will and with no consideration to people's opinions that may or may not be entirely tangent to the issue discussed.

Sorry for posting this in this thread Senseiman, but I rather not set foot in the other thread again. And.. Don't go!!

[miki78]

Yea by the sounds of it i should keep away too

[senseiman]

Thanks for the kind words.

I'd like to stay, this is a great community. But if there is someone like the person in question going around deleting and giving infractions to people for perfectly reasonable posts, there isnt much point in staying. Actually all I was looking for was an apology for deleting my perfectly reasonable post. Instead, I was given an infraction, which was clearly intended to give me the message "piss off". So I figure I'll humour him and do just that. No point in sticking around somewhere if you obviously aren't wanted by the person in charge.

Incidentally, take a look at the post I was given an infraction for:

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=399506#post399506

As you can see, I was quite specifically given an infraction for not including racist content in my post. This is truly bizarre....just too much for me to take.

Like I said i don't know how to disable my account, but moderators by all means go ahead and put me out of my misery. So long as I'm still able to post the temptation to vent how majorly pissed off I am is just irresistable....

[Mars Man]

Really, what kind of weakness and self-justified subjectivity could have possibly given rise to circumstances, the results of which can be found below?!! Really, now!!


I intend to promote action by the community against such lack of thoughtfulness for the very intent and purpose behind this site, Japan Reference--an on-line community !!! Mars Man:kanashii: :auch: :angryfire :angryfire :angryfire

I've been a poster here for three years and have enjoyed the debates.
Yesterday I made a post on this thread:
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27400
There was nothing offensive about the post and it was on-topic. I spent a good deal of time and though crafting the post and looked forward to discussing it. When I came back today, my post and a lot of others had been deleted, apparently because they were embarassing to the person who started the thread.
When I asked for an explanation and apology for this, the only response I got was an infraction.
This will be my last post here. I will delete my account and never visit this site again. To those whose posts I have enjoyed reading and discussing various things with I say goodbye.
To the people who run this site I suggest you reign in the moderator in question.
Edited to note that I cannot figure out how to delete my account, so I would appreciate it if the moderators could do that for me.

[Supervin]

Senseiman, please stay.

[miki78]

This is such a shame ;_;

This is suposed to be a cumunity even if we argue

Please don't leave none of this was your fault it all seems so unfair

[JimmySeal]

Seems like the whole thread was deleted, or hidden. In any case, I get an access denied message when I try to look at it.

[miki78]

OK could be wrong but thats kinda like a silent apology senseiman ^_^

See you don't have to leave ^_^

[hkBattousai]

Can someone copy the content of that page here?
When I click the link, the page opened is :
hkBattousai, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.
Log Out Home

[Mikawa Ossan]

I got an infraction from Maciamo today, too. He said that I insulted a team member or something like that.

I made an aside comment, but since I got an infraction, it made me wish that I had actually made an insult.

I think the actual post I made was "I wish I had the power to delete posts I don't like indiscrimately."

That thread, where (and I admit that I'm paraphrasing) you must give an example of how Japanese people are ignorant or your thread will be considered to be off-topic and deleted is the worst kind of thread that I can imagine. If you do not insult Japanese people you will be punished for posting. You can not debate whether Japanese people are ignorant. You can not point out the overwhelming bias in that OP. You can not do anything but insult the people that comprise the country that this entire forum is based on.

If a non team member had made that thread it would have been deleted promptly.

If that is the current state of Jref, when I eventually do get banned, I will leave Jref with no regrets.

There are a lot of nice people here, but lately Jref is no place to have an opinion.

I'll be frank: Maciamo must be reigned in. This is getting ridiculous. Thomas, please!

[miki78]

ow this all sounds very serious and worrying

[ricecake]

I think the actual post I made was "I wish I had the power to delete posts I don't like indiscrimately."





As I recall,you worded it " with impunity ".

[Goldiegirl]

if you leave the other person will win in a round about way....stay.

[Cue]

Seems like the whole thread was deleted, or hidden. In any case, I get an access denied message when I try to look at it.
Same here. So, I am not able to figure out WHAT EXACTLY happend there.
But anyway... Mikawa san and senseiman, please don't leave. :(

[miki78]

Yea don't leave pleeeeeeease *puppy dog eyes* come on stay

[Ma Cherie]

Goodness, have things become so bad here that the members who've been here for quite some time feel they have to leave? :(

[sabro]

Well you could get banned like I did... and then ressurected a mere shell of the old self...and now neutered, domesticated and on leash-- I behave like a good puppy. Only agreement and harmony is allowed. No dissenting opinions. Nothing that would raise a ripple in Belgium. Happy happy, joy. joy all is good and right.

Maciamo is the god-master. I grovel in awe at his feet. Rocklee is the demigod-dude! Senseiman and Mike Cash must learn their place in the world and not challenge the most excellent ones.

[miki78]

this is all very bad :worried: I don't wanna get banned but i also don't want there to be no freedom of speach

I'm sure theres a compamise right ^_^

[sabro]

You are free to conform!

[senseiman]

Well, I made a copy of the thread because I figured it would get pulled down. For those who didn't see it, basically the OP started it by stating how ignorant Japanese people are because they don't know much about European history (errors in knowledge about Napoleon, Alexander the Great and the vikings were given as examples).

I can't say about what other people's deleted posts said, but my response was, in a perfectly reasonable manner, to point out that history in Japan is taught from an East asian perspective and therefore it was unfair to conclude that Japanese were ignorant just because they didn't know the basics of European history.

I then pointed out that European students don't learn much about topics like (for example) Confuscius, the Tang Dynasty and Hideyoshi Toyotomi. Knowledge about them would be considered a part of fundamental history to Japanese students, yet it would be highly unlikely that many European students would know anything about them. But from that fact you could not infer that Europeans were ignorant, as the OP attempted to do in regards the Japanese.

That post, which I put some thought into and even went to the trouble of looking up some facts in a Japanese history textbook to support, was summarily deleted by the OP for no apparent reason other than it didn't make Japanese people look stupid, which is apparently the only type of post that he considers appropriate.

The fact that my post wasn't treated with any respect made me upset. I don't mind being disagreed with or having people argue with me, but to have it just wiped off the face of the earth like that made my blood boil. And then when I (not unreasonably) demand an apology, they guy adds insult to injury by sending me an automated PM notifying me that I have been given an infraction.

I don't know how this forum manages to stay afloat with a person like that running things. Never mind the fact that he treats posters like garbage, this is supposed to be a forum for people interested in Japan, it shouldn't be run by someone who is obviously bigoted against the Japanese. And I don't use that term lightly, I've made many posts on here that have been highly critical of Japan. But the tone of that thread and the draconian rules enforced to stifle anything other than virulent anti-Japanese views cannot lead one to any conclusion but that the person running it is a bigot. To give an example of the type of thing he posted:

MACIAMO wrote: "On a side note : don't get me wrong, I am fairly tolerant toward their ignorance (amazed, speechless, but tolerant). I make fun of it, but they are forgiven because of their horrible education system."

[sabro]

C'mon Senseiman, you have to admit, that if you don't know European history from the European perspective, you are unforgivably and amazingly ignorant! If your worldview is not entirely Eurocentric, and you are an American, you are ignorant! And if you are religious, it is tantamount to admitting... that you are ignorant! When you accept European supperiority, you will find happiness and joy! Until then, your ignorance will merely be tolerated by the superior ones.

[miki78]

This is all so awful ;_;

[Ma Cherie]

This is all so awful ;_;

Yes I know. I'm still trying to figure out why Maciamo would even start a thread like that.

[Glenn]

Like I said i don't know how to disable my account, but moderators by all means go ahead and put me out of my misery. So long as I'm still able to post the temptation to vent how majorly pissed off I am is just irresistable....


Just a note: based on previous discussions about this, we don't delete accounts. I can't delete accounts, anyway. However, if you really wish, you may be able to provide an illegitimate e-mail address that will get you removed, or you can remove all the information in your profile that isn't required and put "no longer a member" for your custom user title.

On a personal note, I've always enjoyed reading your posts and wish you would stay too.

[doinkies]

Well, I made a copy of the thread because I figured it would get pulled down. For those who didn't see it, basically the OP started it by stating how ignorant Japanese people are because they don't know much about European history (errors in knowledge about Napoleon, Alexander the Great and the vikings were given as examples).
I can't say about what other people's deleted posts said, but my response was, in a perfectly reasonable manner, to point out that history in Japan is taught from an East asian perspective and therefore it was unfair to conclude that Japanese were ignorant just because they didn't know the basics of European history.
I then pointed out that European students don't learn much about topics like (for example) Confuscius, the Tang Dynasty and Hideyoshi Toyotomi. Knowledge about them would be considered a part of fundamental history to Japanese students, yet it would be highly unlikely that many European students would know anything about them. But from that fact you could not infer that Europeans were ignorant, as the OP attempted to do in regards the Japanese.
That post, which I put some thought into and even went to the trouble of looking up some facts in a Japanese history textbook to support, was summarily deleted by the OP for no apparent reason other than it didn't make Japanese people look stupid, which is apparently the only type of post that he considers appropriate.
The fact that my post wasn't treated with any respect made me upset. I don't mind being disagreed with or having people argue with me, but to have it just wiped off the face of the earth like that made my blood boil. And then when I (not unreasonably) demand an apology, they guy adds insult to injury by sending me an automated PM notifying me that I have been given an infraction.
I don't know how this forum manages to stay afloat with a person like that running things. Never mind the fact that he treats posters like garbage, this is supposed to be a forum for people interested in Japan, it shouldn't be run by someone who is obviously bigoted against the Japanese. And I don't use that term lightly, I've made many posts on here that have been highly critical of Japan. But the tone of that thread and the draconian rules enforced to stifle anything other than virulent anti-Japanese views cannot lead one to any conclusion but that the person running it is a bigot. To give an example of the type of thing he posted:
MACIAMO wrote: "On a side note : don't get me wrong, I am fairly tolerant toward their ignorance (amazed, speechless, but tolerant). I make fun of it, but they are forgiven because of their horrible education system."

I agree with this. I don't mind criticism of Japan, but I think that Maciamo went way overboard and crossed the line and acted like a doink. I also think that Maciamo should not have deleted your posts or anyone else's posts. Forums are supposed to be places to share your opinions, not conform to the admin's opinions. People also shouldn't be banned just because they don't agree with the admin.

This has to be stopped. Maciamo must be reigned in somehow. Even though he complains about how the Japanese people he met all stereotyped him, he ends up doing the same thing to Japanese people.

[sabro]

Maciamo... doink... knob.... (giggle giggle)

[miki78]

I don't understand it either why start a thread that is bashing the very race that everybody on this forum loves?

I know we have to accept the pros and cons of every race but not in making a thread you know is gonna have a match under it

Maciamo has always seemed so nice to me i don't get why everybody seems to be antagonizing each other lately

[Mikawa Ossan]

Senseiman, you are the reason I joined Jref in the first place. I think I said this once in an earlier post, but it was your thread about the worst vacation spots in Japan, and your hilarious examples that made me interested in this place.

It would be a shame to see you leave, although I understand your position perfectly.

I am not threatening leaving, by the way. I am merely worried that I will be banned at some future point in time for being critical of Maciamo in my last post on this thread, and barring that some time in the future just for stating my opinion or responding to a post in a way that upsets Maciamo or some other staff member.

[sabro]

Yeah guys, leave the poor guy alone! What has he ever done to you?

[Cue]

Senseiman, thank you so much for typing them all up for us who didn't get to see what had happened. I think I'm catching up.
And now I couldn't agree more with what doinkies has said.

[senseiman]

Senseiman, you are the reason I joined Jref in the first place. I think I said this once in an earlier post, but it was your thread about the worst vacation spots in Japan, and your hilarious examples that made me interested in this place.
It would be a shame to see you leave, although I understand your position perfectly.
I am not threatening leaving, by the way. I am merely worried that I will be banned at some future point in time for being critical of Maciamo in my last post on this thread, and barring that some time in the future just for stating my opinion or responding to a post in a way that upsets Maciamo or some other staff member.

Thank you, I've always found your posts to be interesting and insightful as well.


To be perfectly honest I don't want to leave and I thank everyone for encouraging me to stay. I think I will refrain from using the main forums in protest however until things have changed for the better. I will continue to post on this site feedback/admin contact forum though.


Just one final thought I'd like to contribute on how truly offensive that thread was. It wasn't necessarily the content itself, but the lack of ability of people, especially the Japanese posters here, to reply. That is just unbelievably appalling. Putting up a thread attacking a segment of this community and then completely denying them any chance to defend themselves and their ethnic group against the slur.....I mean it just truly boggles the mind. When I first read it I strongly disagreed with Maciamo's premise, but so long as the purpose was to foster debate (perhaps about Japan's educational system) I thought it was OK. But by banning people from defending themselves from what became a truly ugly attack on their intelligence -based solely on their race- I just can't describe in words how offensive I find that (well, maybe in swear words).

I'm not Japanese, but my wife is. Often times I find that there are things about western history she isn't aware of, like the other day I was talking about Lord Nelson and the Battle of Trafalgar and she wasn't familiar with that. But it would be grossly ignorant of me to infer anything about my wife's intelligence based on that. She is a remarkably intelligent woman and has taught me quite a few things about Japanese and Chinese history that I was completely unaware of.

Like I said, I've criticised a lot of things about Japan on this board, but I've always tried to be careful to draw a distinction between criticizing certain issues in Japan and making broad, culturally biased statements about Japanese people in general.

[thistle]

well said Senseiman, I totally agree with everything you said.
I too have enjoyed the forums the last few months, but have no wish to
visit anymore with such a bigot running them.

[sabro]

I used "intollerant" and "bigot" before, but it was in reference to religious issues...

Maciamo's wife is Japanese, isn't she?

[Revenant]

Decided I'd take more time to think about this before posting my thoughts....

[Mars Man]

If I may add another word in here, please. From the bottom of my heart, and with all faith and hope and more than anything else, love, I'd like to ask that we let things settle a bit now. The thread in question has been deleted and it may be good to let that 'history' lesson be as it is...a lesson learned (once again?) in history. And then, in the meantime, try to get senseiman to stick around, and stand up for Mikawa Ossan san !!! MM

[Mikawa Ossan]

As I recall,you worded it " with impunity ".
Ah, thanks for the correction. I think you're right about that.

[Dutch Baka]

If I may add another word in here, please. From the bottom of my heart, and with all faith and hope and more than anything else, love, I'd like to ask that we let things settle a bit now.

I agree with MM, please don't make it worse than it already is, even though I agree with a lot of you guys, on a lot of things.

Making threads, or posts to say certain things, is not going to help the problem.

[Mikawa Ossan]

I agree. Let's let the management team make the next move.

[Nicky]

don't want there to be no freedom of speach

That doesn't exist on message boards. If it did we'd have to let trolls hang around and bash people because it's their "opinion".

I'm not defending anyone, I just wanted to add this because I moderate a forum and at least once every month I have to hear "RAH RAH, What happened to freedom of speech?". The person or persons who own a board get to decide what goes. It's not fair but... It's their board, their property.

I saw the thread, I thought it was a bit weird. There might be people in Japan who don't know who Napoleon or whoever was, or what he did. But I'm not entirely sure who Nobunaga was or what he did. I just know that his name shows up a hell of a lot in video games. I consider us even.

[Elizabeth]

Don't leave. Trust me...the person in question has made me feel like leaving before also.
I only stay because there must be someone here to act as a voice of reason...and to help keep him in check...otherwise what would the forum become?
The only power we have is to not respond to him and these abuses of authority would have died out several months or even years ago. :-)

[Mike Cash]

Goodness, have things become so bad here that the members who've been here for quite some time feel they have to leave? :(

Maciamo has been mightily offended at having his offensiveness pointed out and is handing out infractions like Halloween candy. Those of us who had the temerity to point out the inflammatory and racist nature of his thread in which one must post some gratuitous anecdotal insult against the Japanese people in general or have the post deleted are, it would seem, being loaded up with infraction points so that he can justify banning us.

We won't have to leave; we'll be run out of town on a rail. Unfortunately, those he is intent on running off tend to be the ones with the greatest amount of experience of actually living in Japan. I suppose he'll be happy when he has run off anyone who can contradict any of his opinions with facts and reason.

[Seon-a Kim]

Aaaww common people why isn't everyone getting along, there are worse matters in life to worry about then all this, it all gets blown up and made worse like this and isn't good for the general peace of the community and your own personal psyche and health.

These kind of of things are endless and give bad vibes to other people or potential good and dedicated members who might consider to join.

It's not always easy to moderate a place with so many people, mistakes are made by both members and staff members...it will always be like that. These matters are best that they are taken care of in private by E-mail or PM and try to solve and understand the matter with each other like that will do much more good...and if not, then there are always the Admins who can be personally contacted and I'm sure they will be pleased to look into the matter and take actions accordingly.

[RockLee]

Well, I think Maciamo went too far too. Giving an infraction is one, but doing it just because of personal bias goes too far, even for an admin. :okashii: Oh and Sabro, you should be a bit more greatful towards the demi-god ;-) :D

[Mikawa Ossan]

Dare I ask?

Can an admin be put on some kind of probation for inappropriate behavior?

(I'm really doing my best to refrain from further comment on this matter and let the staff discuss it over. It's just so....difficult to keep quiet at times like this!)

[RockLee]

Since Maciamo is co-owner of JREF I think that would be hard. But I agree things must change, maybe let the moderating of the people he has a bias against be done by the mods. That would be a possible solution.

[Mikawa Ossan]

I see your point. I think he does a great job at web-site maintenance. Would it be possible to make an arrangement where he takes care of maintenance but has not admin capabilities on the forum? Of course he can whatever he wants at Eupedia as far as I'm concerned.

[thomas]

OK could be wrong but thats kinda like a silent apology senseiman ^_^
See you don't have to leave

I have removed the thread in question, because it is not deemed appropriate for a forum dealing with all things Japanese. I cannot apologise for other people's actions, but I do regret these recent incidents very much.

[miki78]

Yea if people have problems getting along and becouse of that they course each other disagreement

Then perhaps it would be best for those in the fray to add the one/ones they don't like to there ignore list and the moderating of said person to be done by another

That would be a most amicable solution ^_^

Right with nobody getting there feeligs hurt ^_^

@thomas Yea i was just trying to help difuse the situation ^_^;; and make everybody friends again

[Seon-a Kim]

I see your point. I think he does a great job at web-site maintenance. Would it be possible to make an arrangement where he takes care of maintenance but has not admin capabilities on the forum? Of course he can whatever he wants at Eupedia as far as I'm concerned.Yes this can be done on vBulletin.
Edit: on the other hand not 100% sure...they are probably both in same admin account...

Edit again: checking...

Edit ^_^

Yes, easy really just create a totally new usergroup and change the settings on this page:
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4919/imageci2.jpg

[Kinsao]

Blimey! - I'm disappointed to read this thread. :(
I hope you don't leave, Senseiman.
I didn't even get to see the thread in question, though, so I can't comment on that... although from people's descriptions it sounds pretty... racist :souka:
I don't agree with b!tching just for the sake of it, but if there's a problem with disagreement with the admin it's better to be out in the open like this imo.

[Mars Man]

I would say that that was a good decision Thomas ! Thank you for your having taken a more readily-understood-as-being-the-better-course of action. MM

Now...I hope to catch up on my very, very behind welcomes....and chatting with you all on the fourm... MM

ps...thanks Dutch Baka for your support in the effort to help calm things down a bit, for now.

[DoctorP]

I see your point. I think he does a great job at web-site maintenance.
A monkey could do the web site maintenance....but alas, we don't have a monkey now do we?:(

[Uncle Frank]

"Another One Bites The Dust" ?

Uncle Frank

:(

[DoctorP]

Queen! Of course that song should never be confused with Another one Rides the Bus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNlOL8tBVL8)! :blush:

[Maciamo]

Senseiman, your post was moved along a few other interesting, though offtopic comments here (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27424). I apologise, I should have posted a link earlier.

[senseiman]

Senseiman, your post was moved along a few other interesting, though offtopic comments here (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27424). I apologise, I should have posted a link earlier.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

[thomas]

A monkey could do the web site maintenance....but alas, we don't have a monkey now do we?:(

I'm that monkey actually... but I don't get any bananas. :wave:

[leonmarino]

Queen! Of course that song should never be confused with Another one Rides the Bus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNlOL8tBVL8)! :blush:Hahaha!! :D Man that one made my day.. :cool:

[miki78]

^^ you know it kind of feels like there is calm again in the Forum or is it this beutiful Irish music i'm listning to? ^^