The Kanji Appreciation Thread [Archive]

leonmarino

Nov 19, 2006, 21:53

Hello all!!
Today I started practicing my Kanji again. I have finished the Japanese elementary school here in Holland many moons ago, but since then I've never really come to using it a lot and as a result my Kanji proficiency has worsened considerably.. :relief:

So I went to the JLPT Kanji Project site (http://www.jlpt-kanji.com/)(GREAT site!!), and started at level 4. I still pretty much knew all the Kanji of that level (thank God!), but still found some interesting things I had totally forgotten about, like the subtle differences between 牛（うし=cow） and 午 (うま=horse） and between 辛い（つらい=hard, bitter) and 幸い（さいわい＝fortunately）.

Also, I started making up easy ways to remember the Kanji, like I always did as a kid. For example, the Kanji 親（おや＝Ｐａｒｅｎｔ） can easily be memorized as 「木の上に立って見る」(Standing on a tree and looking), the Kanji in blue making up the particles of the whole Kanji. I found a new one today for 辞書（じしょ＝Ｄｉｃｔｉｏｎａｒｙ）, or at least for 辞: "because your tongue （舌） has a hard time （辛）, you have to use the dictionary". I think it is a wonderful and funny way to learn Kanji, and the fact that Kanji's are many times made up of particles, each with separate meanings, is amazing I think. :-)

I did use the "search thread" option before starting this thread (keyword="kanji"), but only found topics such as "Should Kanji be abolished?", "Kanji are driving me insane" and a lot of "Help me with.."-threads.. I didn't find one thread about the beauty of Kanji (I went all the way back to 2004), and I think that should be changed!!

So ladies and gentlemen!! What are your -positive- thoughts on Kanji? Are you as fascinated as I am? Have you encountered anything funny? Maybe interesting differences with the Chinese language (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=404449&postcount=2)? Are you also using funny ways to memorize them? What is your favorite Kanji? Is there anything else you like about Kanji?

Of the Kanji I studied today, I found 一緒（いっしょ＝together) to be an interesting combo.. 「一つの糸によってつながれる者」, which roughly translates to: "those people that are connected by one thread".. Man, it's so beautifully poetic it makes me cry!! :(

I'm interested in hearing your opinion on this.. Although I meant this to be a "positive" thread, constructive criticism is always we come, there's always room for friendly discussions!! So start posting!! :wave:

undrentide

Nov 19, 2006, 23:08

I think it is nice and interesting way to memorize kanji.
And it reminds me of the famous どどいつ.
『「櫻」という字を分解すれば　"二階の女が気に掛る"』
櫻 is an old kanji for 桜, and 気にかかる is a pun for 木にかかる.
:-)

chickie

Nov 19, 2006, 23:26

undrentide-san,
どどいつ！！イキですね！感動しました。

As I'm not good at kanji, I don't remember any good ones at the moment...:(
The only one I've come up with is "ハム" for "公".
Ridiculous, isn't it?

Uncle Frank

Nov 20, 2006, 00:06

The thing that always bugged me about Kanji, was how SMALL they looked in a newspaper. Even with good eyesite, the complicated(many stroke) ones looked like black dots. I found a book on Kanji that showed the original and explained how it was a kind of picture for what it stood for; then showed how it changed to the modern version; very interesting.

Uncle Frank

:souka:

Niedy

Nov 20, 2006, 03:22

A friend recently made up "to wash your bong stoned" for 磨 (which means "to wash" and consists of stone and hemp)... it might not make any sense in english... but in german cannabis and hemp is the same word... :relief:

so yeah... we use little made-up sentences to remember kanji too... though usually they are in german and not japanese ^^; but we use the parts they are made of... the problem is... not always can u find a connection between the parts and the actual meaning... :okashii:

another helpful thing is, when the onyomi of a part of a kanji is most of the time the same... like 義　(GI, justice) whenever this one is part of another kanji, its onyomi is always GI too :cool:

leonmarino

Nov 20, 2006, 04:35

『「櫻」という字を分解すれば　"二階の女が気に掛る"』
櫻 is an old kanji for 桜, and 気にかかる is a pun for 木にかかる.
:-)ほぉ！That's a good one indeed. But is it still in use? My electronic dictionary can't find どどいつ.. :relief: The only one I've come up with is "ハム" for "公".
Ridiculous, isn't it?Well that's a good one too isn't it? Simplicity can be good, just like くノ一 (ku no ichi) ⇒ 女, right?I found a book on Kanji that showed the original and explained how it was a kind of picture for what it stood for; then showed how it changed to the modern version; very interesting.Yeah I know what you mean.. At school we were told that 火 (fire) was actually derived from the shape of a camp fire, 目 (eye) from the shape of an eye, 川 (river) from the streams of the river etc.. I was actually discussing this with a friend the other day, and he didn't believe a word of it, saying it was all a coincidence.. I was brain-washed from my early ages that it was like that, but does anyone have more "scientific" proof of this? :relief: A friend recently made up "to wash your bong stoned" for 磨 (which means "to wash" and consists of stone and hemp)... it might not make any sense in english... but in german cannabis and hemp is the same word... :relief:Hahaha!! That's pretty good actually!! I memorized 「磨」 by picturing someone washing rice in a house (the 广 is the roof) upon a table made of stone (石） with his bare hands.. Somehow the 林 look like two hands to me!! :D
But yeah, washing hemp is a good one too..:blush:

yorkii

Nov 20, 2006, 06:43

this method of remembering the kanji is explored in its entirety by James Heisig and his book, "Remembering the Kanji".

if you enjoy making stories (or more correctly mnemonics) to remeber the kanji, have a look at his method.

here is also a very good website that works in conjunction to the book. i believe that it is in no way affiliated with James Heisig though.
http://kanji.koohii.com/

twinklestar

Nov 20, 2006, 06:55

At school we were told that 火 (fire) was actually derived from the shape of a camp fire, 目 (eye) from the shape of an eye, 川 (river) from the streams of the river etc.. I was actually discussing this with a friend the other day, and he didn't believe a word of it, saying it was all a coincidence.. I was brain-washed from my early ages that it was like that, but does anyone have more "scientific" proof of this ?

Great thread dedicates to Kanji.:wave:

Here is the source .... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bones.

epigene

Nov 20, 2006, 07:15

どどいつ is written 都々一 in kanji. And, yes, the "dodoitsu" on 櫻 has been around for God-knows-when (at least, heard it first in my childhood). This is a type of poetry like haiku and waka but more folksy, read with singsong rhythm (can be accompanied by shamisen) and almost always about romantic love.
Dodoitsu history (http://contest2004.thinkquest.jp/tqj2004/70185/dodoitsu_history1.html)

Difference with the Chinese language? How about 国字 or characters that were invented in Japan:
Kokuji (http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood/9752/kokuji.html)

My contribution from a Japanese TV commercial for a hair-growth lotion:
髪は長～い友だち (The three strokes at top right fly away in the commercial.) :relief:

Elizabeth

Nov 20, 2006, 07:33

Yeah I know what you mean.. At school we were told that 火 (fire) was actually derived from the shape of a camp fire, 目 (eye) from the shape of an eye, 川 (river) from the streams of the river etc.. I was actually discussing this with a friend the other day, and he didn't believe a word of it, saying it was all a coincidence.. I was brain-washed from my early ages that it was like that, but does anyone have more "scientific" proof of this? :relief:
According to the very thoroughly documentated tome _A Guide to Remembering Japanese Characters_ by Dr. Kenneth Hanshall, 目 does derive mostly from an earlier pictograph originally oval shaped and tilted but still with two center strokes occasionally also found in a more rectangular and horizontal form.

火 was described as a stylized derivative of a flame with sparks most resembling three pointy fingures on the top side of a crown, as a radical usually showing up as the hash marks at the bottom of 然.

Pictograms are by defination a direct representation of the said object. If eye looked more like a roof or fire a person crouching by the side of a cliff I would be more likely to question their source. Some information we are fed in school does turn out reliably, thank heavens. :relief:

undrentide

Nov 21, 2006, 00:59

As epigene san already shown the good website explaining about どどいつ, I'm introducing another website which has a nice collection of どどいつ, some are very old and traditional, others are quite new.
たちはな亭 (http://park17.wakwak.com/~tatihana/)

At school we were told that 火 (fire) was actually derived from the shape of a camp fire, 目 (eye) from the shape of an eye, 川 (river) from the streams of the river etc.. I was actually discussing this with a friend the other day, and he didn't believe a word of it, saying it was all a coincidence.. I was brain-washed from my early ages that it was like that, but does anyone have more "scientific" proof of this ?

Not really scientific but here are two nice sites.
漢字のなりたち (http://ravel.edu.mie-u.ac.jp/~yumi/zemi/kanji.htm)
Short animation showing how the kanji was made from a picture(?).

篆書でGO! (http://www.akatsukinishisu.net/kanji/tensho/)
Introducing some interesting 篆書 an ancient style of kanji which is now mainly used for 印鑑 (seal).
Some of them really look like picture than letters!
:cool:

leonmarino

Nov 21, 2006, 01:07

Difference with the Chinese language? How about 国字 or characters that were invented in Japan:
Kokuji (http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood/9752/kokuji.html)Wow!! That's great. I wonder how the Chinese write 匂い, if the Japanese invented this Kanji.. And I didn't expect 笹 to be a Japanese one either, as it is the main food of the Panda's I believe, which are typically Chinese!! All the Kanji for liters and meters are pretty interesting too.. Thank you very much for the link!! :cool: My contribution from a Japanese TV commercial for a hair-growth lotion:
髪は長～い友だち (The three strokes at top right fly away in the commercial.) :relief:I didn't know about the commercial, but it's a good way to remember this Kanji, thanks.

Speaking of which, is there word for this way of remembering things? In Dutch we call it "ezelsbruggetje" which translates to "little donkey bridge".. Like, how Dutch kids are told to remember the order of multiplying, division, addition and subtraction is by the sentence "Mr. Van Dale wacht Op Antwoord": the V is the first letter of "vermenigvuldigen", the D is the first letter of division etc.. (By the way, the sentence means "Mr. Van Dale is waiting for an answer.")

Sorry for the lengthy and probably incomprehensibel explanation, but is there a word for that way of remembering things in English or Japanese?

leonmarino

Nov 21, 2006, 01:15

Not really scientific but here are two nice sites.
漢字のなりたち (http://ravel.edu.mie-u.ac.jp/~yumi/zemi/kanji.htm)
Short animation showing how the kanji was made from a picture(?).
篆書でGO! (http://www.akatsukinishisu.net/kanji/tensho/)
Introducing some interesting 篆書 an ancient style of kanji which is now mainly used for 印鑑 (seal).
Some of them really look like picture than letters!
:cool:Wow, those sites are great!! Thanks a million. The Tensho look interesting to say the very least.. I want to learn and write those kind of Kanji, but I guess I'll stick to ordinary Kanji for the moment!! :relief:

undrentide

Nov 21, 2006, 02:28

Sorry for the lengthy and probably incomprehensibel explanation, but is there a word for that way of remembering things in English or Japanese?
Here are what I can think of (it was so long time ago when I learnt them...)

ルート２ (√2) = 1.41421356
ひとよひとよにひとみごろ　
（ひと１よ４ひと１よ４に２ひと１み３ご５ろ６）

ルート５ (√5) = 2.23620679
ふじさんろくにおーむなく　（富士山麓にオウム鳴く）
ふ２じ２さん３ろく６に２おー０む６な７く９

Periodic table （周期律表）
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%91%A8%E6%9C%9F%E5%BE%8B%E8%A1%A8#.E5.91.A8.E6. 9C.9F.E8.A1.A8
H 水素　
He　ヘリウム
Li　リチウム
Be　ベリリウム
B　ボロン（硼素）
C　カーボン（炭素）
N　窒素
O　酸素
F　フッ素
Ne　ネオン
すいへいりーべぼくのふね（水兵リーベ僕の船） = salor loves my boat
すい（水素）へい（Ｈｅ）リー（Ｌｉ）べ（べリリウム）ぼ（ボロン）く（Ｃ）の（Ｎ＋Ｏ）ふ（フッ素）ね（ネオン）
*This only covers the first ten, but I found on the net it is followed by ソーまがるシップスクラーク that covers up to K (Pottasium)
:relief:

Cue

Nov 21, 2006, 06:53

I'm introducing another website which has a nice collection of どどいつ, some are very old and traditional, others are quite new.
たちはな亭 (http://park17.wakwak.com/~tatihana/)

Wow, undrentide san, that site is familiar! I mean, I've often visit there actually. But not for Dodoitsu... I go there to read/find information on Onmyouji... They have so much helpful info on Onmyouji comics...
(Sorry for off-topic, I just couldn't resist... heheh..)

Okay.
Um, is anyone here heard of this song?
♪憂鬱の鬱という字は、木を書いて、缶を書いて、その横にまた木を書いて、その下にワ冠を書いて、その下に米という時を斜めにして右と下と左を囲んで、その下にカタカナのヒを書いて、右にちょんちょんちょんと書くのよ～
(sung by Kamon Tatsuo)

But still, I can't write this Kanji, "utsu". orz

Qutiepie

Nov 21, 2006, 08:13

Difference with the Chinese language? How about 国字 or characters that were invented in Japan: Kokuji

My contribution from a Japanese TV commercial for a hair-growth lotion:
髪は長～い友だち (The three strokes at top right fly away in the commercial.)

This personal webpage list of Japanese created kanji,I recognized 2 for certain we adopted in everyday Chinese language.One means tonage for Western metric,and the other is a word component for bladder.It's not complete,I think there should more Japanese-made characters.

I want to see this hair lotion commercial with 3 flying strokes in the air,is it downloaded on youtube.com ?

leonmarino

Nov 21, 2006, 15:18

Here are what I can think of (it was so long time ago when I learnt them...)Wow!! I knew about the square root of 2, but 5!? ..Have you ever used it? I like that sort of word-play, just like 「いいくに」＝１１９２, which was the year of.. Some Bakufu right? I can't really remember!! :relief: Okay.
Um, is anyone here heard of this song?
♪憂鬱の鬱という字は、木を書いて、缶を書いて、その横にまた木を書いて、その下にワ冠を書いて、その下に米という時を斜めにして右と下と左を囲んで、その下にカタカナのヒを書いて、右にちょんちょんちょんと書くのよ～
(sung by Kamon Tatsuo)That's a helluva nice way to remember it.. I need to get the melody of that song too!! I once read a Manga about a student who remembered everything he needed to know for the exam by incorporating the material into his lyrics. Which is, I think, a brilliant idea. Thank for your input Cue, 鬱 is probably the first Kanji I'll memorize with 29 (!!) strokes.:cool:

This might be a bit off-topic, but.. Does anyone know what is "correct"?

一日一善
一日一膳

I always thought the first one is correct, but my dear laptop automatically yields the second one (with the 月) when I push the Henkan-key. Is it possible that both are correct? That there is difference in nuance? I kind of understood that 膳 has to do with food, and 善 means goodness..

Glenn

Nov 21, 2006, 21:33

According to Mike Cash's old user title, 一日一膳 is correct.

But still, I can't write this Kanji, "utsu". orz

Well, I don't write it exactly like it's described, but I can. The sacred wine container part I write like an X with four dots in the crotches.

Mikawa Ossan

Nov 21, 2006, 21:49

According to Mike Cash's old user title, 一日一膳 is correct.
I thought I'd look it up for kicks, but it's not included in my dictionary below.

『四文字熟語新辞典』「新装版」
吹野安編
旺文社
1987

Cue

Nov 21, 2006, 22:06

I think 善 is correct.
大辞泉 (http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%b0%ec%c6%fc%b0%ec%c1%b1&dtype=0&stype=1&dname=0na)
It means to do at least one good thing in a day.
I'm not sure if it comes from Budhism or Shintoism...

And I believe Mike is just making fun by using the other kanji.
(We often use different kanji just to be fun. )
I found a very funny and helpful site, that has correct definition and its misuse of Japanese words and phrases.
http://www.110kz.com/004/kan018.htm
# 447 has "Ichinichi Ichizen" but other posts are just too funny! :lol:

PS. Leon, yeah, I was looking for the song for you but couldn't find it. I had his CD with that song many years ago(more than 10 years I guess), but I sold it...

Supervin

Nov 21, 2006, 22:14

ルート２ (√2) = 1.41421356
ひとよひとよにひとみごろ　
ルート５ (√5) = 2.23620679
ふじさんろくにおーむなく　（富士山麓にオウム鳴く）
Pretty cool. Props to you. I guess having multiple ways of counting numbers in Japanese pays off in math. :cool:

Apart from Pythagoras' constant, what was root 5 used for? Or was it that you had to memorize the square roots of the first couple of integers?

Glenn

Nov 21, 2006, 23:07

Cue

Nov 21, 2006, 23:12

Right, Glenn. Because you know Chinese language so well, it's only natural for you to think that way. (Sometimes Chinese/Taiwaneese use very complicated kanji , or so I heard.) ^^;

Glenn

Nov 21, 2006, 23:18

Er... I don't know it that well (hardly at all, I'd say). Well, I know this: 我不会说中文！／我不會說中文！

Supervin

Nov 21, 2006, 23:52

Sometimes Chinese/Taiwaneese use very complicated kanji , or so I heard. ^^;
Yeah, there are characters like 齉,龜,龘,鸞,龞,鸚,癵,戇,钀,饢,鬱,麤,鱻,爩,爨,灥,籲,鶘,鸝,籱 ,靐,麤,龗 and so on, but some are used very rarely. 龜, for example, is used often, but has been simplified to 亀 in Japanese.

Glenn

Nov 21, 2006, 23:55

I think I can still write that traditional one from memory. Haven't tried it in a while, though. The others mostly look like ink blots. :shock:

Supervin

Nov 22, 2006, 00:00

IThe others mostly look like ink blots. :shock:
Haha, yeah. That's what happens when every single character is squashed, flattened and distorted into one arbitrary square in printed text.

Glenn

Nov 22, 2006, 00:12

I have to imagine, though, that should they be handwritten they would be disproportionately large. Reminds me of my own handwriting, except that I make much less complex characters look ugly.

leonmarino

Nov 22, 2006, 05:18

Well I did some Googling and it indeed seems like 一日一善 is right, and 一日一膳 is sometimes used as a joke. :relief:

The weird thing is my laptop changes 「いちぜん」 to 「一膳」, and if I want 「一善」, I have to change 「いち」 and 「ぜん」 one by one if you know what I mean!! The weird world of 変換キー.. :D

leonmarino

Nov 23, 2006, 17:36

淼
So I borrowed a Chinese writing and pronunciation course from a friend and I found this character yesterday. Doesn't it look.. "Weird"? That might sound negative, but that's not what I mean; it's just the fact the fact that I'm not used to seeing it.
The meaning of it is "insignificant" and it is pronounced as "miao (http://www.samurai-doraemon.demon.nl/miao.mp3)" (a = third tone pinyin, so tone goes down and up)(it's my own pronounciation so it mightn't be 100% accurate). It sounds very much like an old drunk cat to me!!
While typing 淼 with the aid of the wonderful IME-pad, I also found these two:
焱
惢
I have no idea what these mean but it sure looks wonderful. :-)

Mikawa Ossan

Nov 23, 2006, 18:22

To anyone who likes Kanji, I recommend this book very highly!

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/4062691019/sr=1-2/qid=1164274774/ref=sr_1_2/250-9118538-5585805?ie=UTF8&s=books

Glenn

Nov 23, 2006, 23:32

leonmarino

Nov 24, 2006, 00:29

焱 -- エン　１）ひばな（火花）。ほのお。２）火が盛んに燃え上がるさま。

惢 -- サ／ズイ　一：１）疑う。惑う。２）良い。二：しべ＝蕊
心にあれこれ疑い惑う意味を表す。

出典：新漢語林ふむふむ！Thank you very much!:cool:

Glenn, are you one of those people frequently engaging in 立ち読み（たちよみ）? :blush:

Off-topic, but I never quite understood how that is tolerated in Japan. Some people literally spend hours a day reading magazines in convenience stores and book stores!! :relief:

Glenn

Nov 24, 2006, 00:51

No, not that frequently.

I've actually seen signs saying that it's an inconvenience to other shoppers and asking for people to not do it in a Lawson.

leonmarino

Nov 24, 2006, 01:09

I've actually seen signs saying that it's an inconvenience to other shoppers and asking for people to not do it in a Lawson.Yeah I also saw sings in combini's stating they're not giving away chopsticks anymore, and that usage of plastic bags will be decreased.. Have you ever seen someone taking notice of those signs? :blush:

My favorite sign I saw in Japan was a road sign along the highway: (sorry for being off-topic but I thought it was pretty funny)
「よそ見注意」

It'd be pretty tragic if you caused an accident while trying to read that sign. :blush:

Glenn

Nov 24, 2006, 01:14

And ironic! :D

--------------------------------------

undrentide

Nov 24, 2006, 02:20

My favorite sign I saw in Japan was a road sign along the highway: (sorry for being off-topic but I thought it was pretty funny)
「よそ見注意」
It'd be pretty tragic if you caused an accident while trying to read that sign. :blush:

If one sees the sign, that means the person is already doing よそ見... hahaha :D

Glenn

Nov 24, 2006, 23:44

Reminds me of the billboard that says "Learn to read."

JimmySeal

Nov 25, 2006, 11:58

JimmySeal

Nov 25, 2006, 12:07

Wow!! That's great. I wonder how the Chinese write 匂い, if the Japanese invented this Kanji.. And I didn't expect 笹 to be a Japanese one either, as it is the main food of the Panda's I believe, which are typically Chinese!!
It seems that characters used to talk about smell in Chinese are 味, 聞, 臭, and 嗅.

According to [http://translation.infoseek.co.jp/], the Chinese word for 笹 is 小竹 and the Chinese word for 匂い is 味.

leonmarino

Nov 25, 2006, 17:23

I learned something yesterday about the kanji 姦. The majority of kun-yomi for kanji are Japanese words that are similar in meaning to the original Chinese meaning. However, the reading かしましい (noisy) for 姦しい arose from the form of the character itself (three women), not the Chinese meaning. The character actually means adultery or rape originally.So you're saying the Chinese meaning is "rape", or have I misunderstood you? That would be two very different meanings for the same Kanji.. :relief: The first time I saw that Kanji I thought "that's a nice situation to be in!" :p BTW, if nobody answered leonmarino's question from earlier, the best English term to describe remembering kanji by using little stories and memory tricks is "mnemonics."Ah, that sounds a bit familiar indeed. Thank you JimmySeal!!It seems that characters used to talk about smell in Chinese are 味, 聞, 臭, and 嗅.
Yeah I forgot to say but I asked my Chinese friend how they write "smell", and they use a completely different character for it: 闻, pronounced wen2. [EDIT:Can you read it? 'cos it doesn't show on my computer after I posted it!!]According to [http://translation.infoseek.co.jp/], the Chinese word for 笹 is 小竹 and the Chinese word for 匂い is 味.My friend said the word for 笹 (what's the English word for it anyway?) is 竹子, zhu2 zi.
I also showed her some native Japanese Kanji, like 峠 and 凧. She was pleasantly amused.. "That one just reads mountain, up, down!", kinda like my reaction when I first saw 淼 I guess. :-)

JimmySeal

Nov 25, 2006, 22:41

So you're saying the Chinese meaning is "rape", or have I misunderstood you? That would be two very different meanings for the same Kanji..

Yes, that's right and that's the point - that the Japanese assigned a reading to it that was completely unrelated to the original meaning, but related to the shape of the character itself. When pronounced with its on-yomi it still does mean rape, adultery, or wickedness as in:
強姦 - ごうかん rape
姦淫 - かんいん adultery
姦計 - かんけい trick
and a whole bunch of other unsavory words.

Yeah I forgot to say but I asked my Chinese friend how they write "smell", and they use a completely different character for it: 闻, pronounced wen2. [EDIT:Can you read it? 'cos it doesn't show on my computer after I posted it!!]
I can see it. It's the simplified version of 聞.

笹 is "bamboo grass" in English.

Gaijinian Man

Nov 25, 2006, 23:03

Well, they say 味道 for 匂い most of the time
but learning Chinese sort of took a bit of the fun out of Kanji
Cuz you realize how many kanji are for sound
which is somehow less fun

but still fun :)
just a bit less

undrentide

Nov 25, 2006, 23:39

Yeah I forgot to say but I asked my Chinese friend how they write "smell", and they use a completely different character for it: 闻, pronounced wen2.

I can see it. It's the simplified version of 聞.

Oh, that's interesting!
There is 香道 (to appreciate the smell of incense), and one say 香を聞く which means to "smell" the incense.

yukio_michael

Nov 26, 2006, 03:00

焱 -- エン　１）ひばな（火花）。ほのお。２）火が盛んに燃え上がるさま。

惢 -- サ／ズイ　一：１）疑う。惑う。２）良い。二：しべ＝蕊
心にあれこれ疑い惑う意味を表す。

出典：新漢語林

By the way, it's a shame that Japanese book companies don't allow us to see inside the books on amazon (at least I've never seen one that I could look inside).Kanji Learner's dictionary seems to... I don't know about the others...

Kanji (and grammar) is all that I study at the moment, due to the fact that I have no formal textbook, and don't really like online-learning... I like to have a book in my hand that I can curl up with on the bed or at work or wherever I'm at...

That said, right now, I'm fascinated by Kanji, and have been even surprised at my limited skill allowing me to ascertain certain chinese phrases that I see here and there... I love kanji.... or rather, I've come to love it.

Glenn

Nov 26, 2006, 03:13

Kanji Learner's dictionary seems to... I don't know about the others...

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant on amazon.co.jp there are hardly ever books that you can see the contents of.

Qutiepie

Nov 26, 2006, 04:22

(Sometimes Chinese/Taiwaneese use very complicated kanji ,or so I heard.)

Haha ... haha ... You left out Hong Kong,it has created own set of Cantonized Kanji,those words are only readable and understandable by Cantonese-speaking Chinese not other dialects-speaking Chinese folks.Cantonized Kanji appear mostly in entertainment tabloids and magazines,can't be found in formal Chinese dictionary.

I will link one URL of a Hong Kong based Cantonized-Chinese ( Kanji ) language website for your review at a later time.

JimmySeal

Nov 26, 2006, 10:56

undrentide

Nov 26, 2006, 13:44

There are a few characters used in Japan that don't seem to be kanji per se, but can be used in place of kanji in certain situations. I know that 〆 is sometimes used in plase of 締 in 締切 (〆切), and I know that there's an abbreviated version of 第 that looks kind of like ヤ, but with a few extra strokes (I can't find it in the character map). Does anyone know what 仝 is?

仝 is 異字体 for 同, according to 漢字袋.
http://kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~yasuoka/kanjibukuro/
(With MS IME I found out the 音読み for 仝 - which is どう, then input どう at 漢字袋, and found this answer.)

leonmarino

Nov 26, 2006, 18:43

I can see it. It's the simplified version of 聞.Oh, that's interesting!
There is 香道 (to appreciate the smell of incense), and one say 香を聞く which means to "smell" the incense.I checked out this Wiki-page (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A6%99%E9%81%93) was 香道 is, and it seems like a very interesting phenomenon. But still, I couldn't find a explanation as to why they call it 聞く instead of 嗅ぐ or 匂う.. I guess it is because of the negative connotations; 嗅ぐ involves the Kanji 臭い（くさい）, and I was taught that 匂い is the less pleasant version of 香り.
笹 is "bamboo grass" in English.Thanks!:cool: That said, right now, I'm fascinated by Kanji, and have been even surprised at my limited skill allowing me to ascertain certain chinese phrases that I see here and there... I love kanji.... or rather, I've come to love it.I'm glad you do! To say the truth, I was kind of worried by the limited reactions from people on this thread. I am pretty sure there are quite a few people studying Japanese and Kanji out there, but it seems just a handful of people see Kanji as something beautiful, while many others seem to see it as a necessary evil.. A compulsary set of characters they have to memorize in order to pass whatever test..:relief: So yeah, I'm glad you're "coming out" with your love for Kanji!! :blush: I will link one URL of a Hong Kong based Cantonized-Chinese ( Kanji ) language website for your review at a later time.Wow, so even in China there are different kinds of Kanji.. I'm looking forward to seeing your link!!

Kyoko_desu

Nov 26, 2006, 19:13

Hey leon, you've created such a nice and educational thread!
It's so good and again your 好感度アップ～！:cool:

Now I can stab a question I have held since I was a junior high school girl.
The question is:
Why many of the kanji which is related to body parts have 月(moon)?
For example:
肩 - shoulder
肘 - elbow
脚 - leg
腕 - arm
胸 - chest
骨 - bone
腹 - belly
胃 - stomach
腸 - intestine
腰 - waist
背中 - back
心臓 - heart
筋肉 - muscle
I can understand why kanji for the tree names such as 梅、桜、松 have 木.
It's also easy to understand water related kanji have サンズイ , like 池、海、波、涙、汗、注ぐ.
Then how come body parts have 月?　I would rather use 身 instead of 月 for the body related kanji.

Does anyone know?

Mikawa Ossan

Nov 26, 2006, 19:31

That one's easy. It's not actually moon. It's niku. Give me a moment...

JimmySeal

Nov 26, 2006, 19:38

Yes. When it appears in a body-part-related kanji, 月 is actually an abbreviation of 肉. That radical is actually called にくづき.

Mikawa Ossan

Nov 26, 2006, 20:12

肉：にく
月：にくづき

「部首解釈」
これを部首にして、肉の状態・性質、体の部分・状態などに関する意を表す字ができている。偏になると、省略されて月の字形になる。本来、月（つき）・(Sorry, I can't get it to come up)（ふね）とは区別されるが、
常用漢字体ではすべて月の形となった。

「漢和辞典」　角川書店

leonmarino

Nov 26, 2006, 21:15

Hey leon, you've created such a nice and educational thread!
It's so good and again your 好感度アップ～！:cool:What people don't know is that created this thread just to get some attention from you.. :blush: Yes. When it appears in a body-part-related kanji, 月 is actually an abbreviation of 肉. That radical is actually called にくづき.肉：にく
月：にくづきWow! I feel like I'm getting smarter each time I visit this thread! Thanks for the info!! :cool:
[Edit: By the way, I thought にくづき was 肉付き, but I guess in this context it is 肉月, isn't it?]

Kyoko_desu

Nov 27, 2006, 04:57

Oh yeah, 月 and 肉, they look so similar! Thanks you all for answering my question. (Isn't it a shame for a Japanese to be taught about kanji by non-Japanese people? ) :blush:

yukio_michael

Nov 27, 2006, 06:18

I've just purchased the book "Kanji Power" by John Millen, to better help me practice learning kanji in a structured way other than just by the flashcards (Tuttle of course), which I use. Does anyone have any experience with this book good or bad? The reviews on Amazon are mixed, but generally speaking I'm fond of the books that Tuttle put out.

Qutiepie

Nov 27, 2006, 07:36

Wow, so even in China there are different kinds of Kanji.. I'm looking forward to seeing your link!!

Hi .... Leonmarino

* Here is the learning website for Cantonized-Chinese Kanji.Click on forum post reads " word of the moment ",takes you to a page has some old written posts explained the meanings of Cantonized-Chinese sentences and words in English.

http://cantonese.sheik.co.uk/

* One nice website for formal Chinese Kanji @ http://zhongwen.com
This place has a banner with pre-program deciphers Chinese script,one character at a time 24/7.

Qutiepie

Nov 27, 2006, 08:58

Yes. When it appears in a body-part-related kanji, 月 is actually an abbreviation of 肉. That radical is actually called にくづき.

Precise thorough explantion as written in Chinese dictionary.:wave:

leonmarino

Nov 27, 2006, 16:05

Hi .... Leonmarino
* Here is the learning website for Cantonized-Chinese Kanji.Click on forum post reads " word of the moment ",takes you to a page has some old written posts explained the meanings of Cantonized-Chinese sentences and words in English.
http://cantonese.sheik.co.uk/An interesting site to say the very least!! Thank you very much. Am I correct in concluding that Cantonese is traditional Chinese? I very much enjoyed the "loan words (http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/loanwords.htm)" section, and this (http://ihome.ust.hk/~lbsun/hkloan.html) external link. 媽媽生 as a way of writing the Japanese word ママさん.. Which is a loan word too!!* One nice website for formal Chinese Kanji @ http://zhongwen.com
This place has a banner with pre-program deciphers Chinese script,one character at a time 24/7.Oh I really like the deciphering banner, very insightful. :cool:

MrWabu

Nov 27, 2006, 21:25

Am I correct in concluding that Cantonese is traditional Chinese? I very much enjoyed the "loan words (http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/loanwords.htm)" section, and this (http://ihome.ust.hk/~lbsun/hkloan.html) external link. 媽媽生 as a way of writing the Japanese word ママさん.. Which is a loan word too!!Oh I really like the deciphering banner, very insightful. :cool:
Cantonese is Hong Kong Chinese (plus some southern regions of China). It says at the bottom of one of those links the word for Taxi was Cantonese only, so its possible that because of British colonial rule, they may have more English loan words than traditional Chinese (which would be Mandarin).
Cantonese uses traditional kanji. Mandarin's kanji have been radically simplified. Although Japanese have been simplified somewhat, you probably will find it easier to recognise traditional kanji.

Qutiepie

Nov 28, 2006, 07:31

Am I correct in concluding that Cantonese is traditional Chinese ? I very much enjoyed the "[URL="http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/loanwords.htm"]loan words

媽媽生 as a way of writing the Japanese word ママさん.. Which is a loan word

Oh I really like the deciphering banner, very insightful. :cool:

Yes,this site is in Traditional Chinese.Those Cantonized-Chinese Kanji loanwords are transliterated from Western languages mainly English.

We borrowed it from Japanese and also transliterated from it's original Japanese romaji mama-san.

Good,it's an excellent learning tool for Kanji enthusiasts.

* http://www.uwants.com is Hong-Kong based website has a percentage of Cantonized-Kanji.The site's forum titles Hot Topic Discussion ( in 4 Traditional Chinese characters ) has many posts written in either entirely or partially Cantonized-Kanji by Cantonese-speaking Chinese forumers there.

* http://www.gamebase.com.tw is Taiwan based website in 100% formal Chinese script.

twinklestar

Nov 28, 2006, 08:40

Cantonese is Hong Kong Chinese (plus some southern regions of China).

Cantonese uses traditional kanji. Mandarin's kanji have been radically
simplified.

I have to make some clarifications here,I request non-Chinese refrain from making non-factual statements in regard to Chinese people and culture.

Cantonese and Mandarin are Chinese spoken dialects,irrelevant to whether it's Simplified or Traditional Chinese script which is a matter of governmental policy and practice of privately-owned businesses.It's not what dialect Chinese speak decides the form of Chinese script we write.

Cantonese are Chinese who speak Cantonese dialect or trace ancestry to the province of Canton,not restricted to those reside in Hong Kong.Some Hong Kong Chinese are Shanghainese,Hakkas,Fujianese,and other non-Cantonese.

China,Singapore and Chinese communities in Malaysia use Simplified Chinese,Taiwan and Hong Kong plus Chinese communities outside Far East use Traditional Chinese ( except a few PRC-leaning newspapers and private enterprises ).

leonmarino

Nov 28, 2006, 17:42

Hello Twinklestar, and thank you very much for your information! It seems like our Chinese friends have a few different scripts, depending on their place in China. Which I find very interesting because China is often seen by (shallow) westerners as a very homogenous people. I have to make some clarifications here,I request non-Chinese refrain from making non-factual statements in regard to Chinese people and culture.I'm pretty sure MrWabu just tried to help us. It's a pity MrWabu's information doesn't concurr with yours, but in essence let us be thankful for his input. I do understand your reaction Twinklestar; I have a hard time refraining from expressing my discontect myself when someone mentions something "bogus" about either Holland or Japan. :relief:

But still, let us not fall into the "you can't say anything about that because.." and "what would you know about.."-trap. We're all here to either learn or have a good time.. Or both if possible!! :-)

Qutiepie

Nov 29, 2006, 03:31

Hi ... leonmarino :-)

I need to reiterate this,Cantonese-Chinese people read those Cantonized-Kanji in Cantonese dialect and only readable and fully understandable in this Chinese tongue.

One point I must stress here,Cantonized-Kanji is a byproduct of cultural chauvinism of us Cantonese-Chinese,not history related or foreign influences.

MrWabu

Nov 29, 2006, 04:51

I think I know what happened, I said Cantonese was Hong Kong Chinese. I could see how that could upset. I'm sorry I generalised, I didn't think I needed to go into quite as much detail as you clearly have done. I wrote my reply because leonmarino wrote "Cantonese is traditional Chinese" and I read the "traditional" as how most people think Mandarin is what all Chinese speak, so I just wanted to make the distinction. Now I re-read his post, I think he means "Cantonese uses traditional Chinese characters".

Back on topic...
There are a few characters used in Japan that don't seem to be kanji per se, but can be used in place of kanji in certain situations. I know that 〆 is sometimes used in plase of 締 in 締切 (〆切), and I know that there's an abbreviated version of 第 that looks kind of like ヤ
Do the "ヶ" in "六ヶ月" and "々" in 時々 belong in this group?

leonmarino

Nov 29, 2006, 07:10

Do the "ヶ" in "六ヶ月" and "々" in 時々 belong in this group?I always thought ヶ was a katakana.. I don't know about 々 though. :relief:

JimmySeal

Nov 29, 2006, 09:27

The problem, MrWabu, is that Cantonese and Mandarin have no direct connection to traditional or simplified kanji. People who speak Cantonese in China use simplified characters, just like everyone else in China. People who speak Cantonese in Hong Kong use traditional characters, though I have seen some DVDs from Hong Kong start to use simplified characters, perhaps because Hong Kong recently came under Chinese rule again.
so its possible that because of British colonial rule, they may have more English loan words than traditional Chinese (which would be Mandarin).
"Traditional Chinese" is not a language, it's a character scheme. Mandarin is simply a dialect that has been used by government officials for a long time. It's not any older than Cantonese.

The ヶ in 六ヶ月 is a simlification of 箇, and it's occasionally used in other situations (like 三ヶ所). So yes, I'd say that ヶ and 々 fit in that group.

MrWabu

Nov 29, 2006, 11:13

"Traditional Chinese" is not a language, it's a character scheme
Yeah... but when I said it, I meant Mandarin, not the characters... I can see why you got confused.

The only other character I can think of that would fit in the not-quite-kanji-but-not-kana group is maybe "ゝ". I've seen it before, but I don't know how its used.

qianyuxuan

Nov 29, 2006, 14:23

The problem, MrWabu, is that Cantonese and Mandarin have no direct connection to traditional or simplified kanji. People who speak Cantonese in China use simplified characters, just like everyone else in China. People who speak Cantonese in Hong Kong use traditional characters, though I have seen some DVDs from Hong Kong start to use simplified characters, perhaps because Hong Kong recently came under Chinese rule again.
"Traditional Chinese" is not a language, it's a character scheme. Mandarin is simply a dialect that has been used by government officials for a long time. It's not any older than Cantonese.
The ヶ in 六ヶ月 is a simlification of 箇, and it's occasionally used in other situations (like 三ヶ所). So yes, I'd say that ヶ and 々 fit in that group.

Allow me to point this out.
Mandarin is not dialect, but the standard language in China. In China, it is refer to as 'Putonghua', meaning the' common speech' or the 'common language'.

twinklestar

Nov 30, 2006, 03:30

Mandarin is a northern Chinese dialect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese

leonmarino

Dec 1, 2006, 01:25

Sorry to interrupt you guys :relief: but I just wanted to post this link (http://kakijun.main.jp/) to a very good Kanji site!! It shows you the order of strokes of many Kanji..
I actually needed it when I was practising 「春」. Somehow it seems more natural to me to set two horizontal strokes, then the two diagonal ones, and then the last horizontal stroke.. But apparantly that's wrong!! I find it easier my way, because the two diagonal meet at the same height as the second horizontal stroke. Not only do I find it easier, but the 春 my way definitely looks better than when I do the three horizontal ones followed by the diagonals..
What are your thoughts on 書き順（かきじゅん）, the order of writing the Kanji? The alphabet we have is too easy to invent such system for, but it is necessary for complicated characters like Kanji.. Or do you think otherwise? Do you have your own distinct ways of writing some Kanji?

twinklestar

Dec 1, 2006, 04:06

「春」 Somehow it seems more natural to me to set two horizontal strokes, then the two diagonal ones, and then the last horizontal stroke.. But apparantly that's wrong !!

What are your thoughts on 書き順（かきじゅん）,the order of writing the Kanji ? Do you have your own distinct ways of writing some Kanji ?

I speak on behalf of how Chinese are taught in writing Kanji,up down and left to right.We stick with the standardization,a few semi-illiterates might write Kanji improperly.

For the Chinese character Spring,we typically write the 3 horizontal strokes first then vertical strokes left to right and add Kanji for day to the bottom in completing the word.

Lance

Dec 1, 2006, 04:27

Thank you, yorkii! You're a good help! This is a very helpful site! Arigatou gozaimasu! Zenzen arimasen, ne?
Mou ichido...
Arigatou!

MrWabu

Dec 1, 2006, 04:51

What are your thoughts on 書き順（かきじゅん）, the order of writing the Kanji? The alphabet we have is too easy to invent such system for, but it is necessary for complicated characters like Kanji.. Or do you think otherwise? Do you have your own distinct ways of writing some Kanji?

There are stroke orders for the alphabet we use, just not widely used past learning the characters in the first place. The Japanese children I helped teach English to used a certain stroke order for alphabet letters and there were cards all around the classroom with them on.

Regarding Kanji, obviously the order is perceived to have much greater importance, but in reality? I've seen people write characters out of order quite frequently. The one I remember the most are characters such as 間. For this they have written the left side, then the middle then the right side. In this case, it is more of a speed issue than laziness I'm sure. Stroke orders aren't necessarily the fastest way to write characters.

Glenn

Dec 2, 2006, 00:39

As far as "Chinese dialects" go, Cantonese is as much a dialect of Mandarin as English is a dialect of German.

JimmySeal

Dec 2, 2006, 00:46

Who said Cantonese is a dialect of Mandarin?

Glenn

Dec 2, 2006, 00:49

Sorry, it was my understanding that comments in this thread were based on the assumption of the existence of a Chinese language, and any language that used Chinese characters in written form was somehow a dialect of that Chinese language. My comment was meant to show that just because Chinese characters are used to write the language, it doesn't mean that that language is a diaclect of the Chinese language (which I believe doesn't actually exist). Sorry I didn't make that clear.

Supervin

Dec 2, 2006, 06:42

OK, just to clarify:

The written Chinese language is more or less constant everywhere, except that there two systems of characters: traditional (used in Hong Kong and Taiwan) and simplified (China, Malaysia and Singapore).

The spoken Chinese language however has many variations. The major 'dialect languages' are:

Mandarin (the official spoken language),
Cantonese (Hong Kong and southern China),
Shanghainese (Shanghai),
Hakka (some parts of southern China),
Taiwanese (Taiwan),
Hokkien (Fujian)
and Teochew (Chaoshan region).

In essence, spoken Chinese has many 'dialect languages', since they are not 'dialects' as we understand the term in, for example, English. The differences are so vast across the spoken medium that they qualify as separate languages, which they are. Comparing 'dialect languages' would be like comparing spoken English to spoken French (with the exception of the last three, which can be similar), so two speakers of different 'dialect languages' would not understand each other at all. Structure-wise, they are also very distinct; Cantonese is Subject-Verb-Object like English, whereas Shanghainese is Subject-Object-Verb like Japanese. These 'dialect languages' are not merely pronunciations of the written language, character by character (except Mandarin); they are learnt separately and do not correpond to the text completely.

Thus, there is one written Chinese language and many different spoken Chinese languages.

Glenn

Dec 2, 2006, 13:26

But even in the written language there are differences, like the Cantonese character 冇, right? As far as I know that was created for the Cantonese word mou (don't know the tone) which has the meaning 没有 in Mandarin. Is my information mistaken?

JimmySeal

Dec 2, 2006, 17:24

I've seen brochures that had Cantonese as well as generic "Chinese" and they differed in more than just simplified vs. traditional.

leonmarino

Dec 2, 2006, 17:54

Interesting posts.. Thank you guys!! :cool:

I have a question similar to Glenn's: in the Mandarin language "thank you" is Xie4Xie4, right? So that's written like 謝謝 if I'm not mistaken. But in Cantonese it is apparently:

m'koy - when someone does a deed for you
to-che - when you're given a present
(Sorry if I misspelled it, but I have no clue how to write it)

Now, I have no idea how to write these words in Kanji, but it in any case I can assume that they're not two of the same like in XieXie right? So it does seem indeed that also the written language is different in some aspects..

(I hope nobody minds that this is all a bit off-topic, I'm enjoying it actually!)

Supervin

Dec 2, 2006, 22:18

To address some of the above points:

Yes, Cantonese can be written down in the way it is spoken, which have specially created characters as they don't exist in the written language - there are over a thousand of these and counting.

However, the use of such Cantonese characters is restricted to informal and colloquial writing like in various magazines, adverts, forums, online messenging and so on, so you wouldn't find these in, say, a broadsheet newspaper for professionals. (An exception in formal writing would be in transcriptions, for example in witness statements, where the exact spoken words need to be recorded down.)

冇 - mou (没有 in standard writing) was invented by an advert company, where the two strokes inside 有 ('to have') were taken out to signify 'not have'. And 'thank you' (謝謝 in standard writing) would be 唔該 - mm goi (when someone assists you) and 多謝 - dor ze (when someone gives you a gift), which reflects the spoken practice in Cantonese.

twinklestar

Dec 3, 2006, 03:12

Hakka (some parts of southern China)
Taiwanese (Taiwan) ?
Hokkien (Fujian)

Thus,there is one written Chinese language and many different spoken Chinese languages.

Hakka also spoken in scattered parts of northern provinces of Hebei and Hubei,Hakka-Chinese were originally northern Han Chinese.

Taiwan island has 2 major spoken Chinese dialects,Hokkien ( Taiyu,it's local city dialect of Xiamen in Fujian province across the Taiwan Straits ) and Hakka plus Mandarin as official Chinese language.

Loanwords in any language is result of cultural exchange,NOT neccessary of foreign rule or domination.Japanese has many European loanwords,there are some English transliterations of Chinese like kowtow and long-time no-see and Mandarin ( Man=Manchu/darin=great one ) are 3 common examples.

Correct,there is ONE written Chinese script called Kanji.

Qutiepie

Dec 3, 2006, 04:19

Cantonese character 冇, right? As far as I know that was created for the Cantonese word mou (don't know the tone) which has the meaning 没有 in Mandarin. Is my information mistaken ?

This is a Cantonized-Kanji,we pronounce it moe ( with e silent ).It literally means don't have or nothing,you're correct on the formal characters use in Mandarin.

leonmarino

Dec 7, 2006, 14:31

Now I would like to get away from the Chinese dialect issue and get back to some Japan Kanji stuff.. :relief:

Does anyone know what the difference is between 怖 and 恐? They both mean "scary" and my electronic dictionary doesn't really say what the difference is, but I'm sure there are some differences..

Also, the word 恐怖 is a combo of the two, and I read somewhere that these kind of double-Kanji's are a Japanese invention.. It was in some post here on JREF, but I can't find it anymore it seems. 幸福 was I think another example. Do you know any more of these combo's?

JimmySeal

Dec 7, 2006, 15:22

Combining two kanji with a similar meaning to create a new word with that meaning is very much a Chinese invention. 恐怖 exists in the Chinese language and is pronounced kong3bu4. 幸福 is pronounced xing4fu2.

Apparently the upper half of 恐 signifies the act of punching a hole in something so this character represents the hollow feeling of having a hole through one's heart.
Supposedly the character 怖 is somehow related to the character 迫 and represents the fright of being threatened by something.

So maybe 怖 is the fright of an imminent danger and 恐 is the fright of a present horror.

undrentide

Dec 7, 2006, 15:35

Now I would like to get away from the Chinese dialect issue and get back to some Japan Kanji stuff.. :relief:
Does anyone know what the difference is between 怖 and 恐? They both mean "scary" and my electronic dictionary doesn't really say what the difference is, but I'm sure there are some differences..

I'm not so sure about these kanji themselves, but when used as adjective, 怖い sounds more colloquial and subjective than 恐ろしい.
恐ろしい話を聞いて、みんな「怖いよ～！」と言いました。:relief:

leonmarino

Dec 7, 2006, 15:43

I'm not so sure about these kanji themselves, but when used as adjective, 怖い sounds more colloquial and subjective than 恐ろしい.
恐ろしい話を聞いて、みんな「怖いよ～！」と言いました。:relief:That's true! 恐ろしい sounds more like "horrible" than "scary" too isn't it? "They heard a horrible story, and said 'that's scary!'", right?

But what about 恐い and 怖い? :relief:

JimmySeal

Dec 7, 2006, 15:57

But what about 恐い and 怖い? :relief:
I would think each one represents the flavor of each kanji.

Here are some more of those paired synonym compounds:
清潔
身体
岩石
絵画
救助
均等
破損
永遠
採取
道路

Qutiepie

Dec 8, 2006, 07:42

Compound Kanji have been part of Chinese script since ancient times,2 examples I can provide are " pirate " and " butterfly ".www.zhongwen.com is one good Chinese language website can answer some of your inquiries in English on Kanji.

Japanese have also created a few,one word I can think of at this moment is bladder has two Chinese characters.

leonmarino

Feb 10, 2007, 04:49

Hello peoples!!
I have another query for you.. I recently bought 漢検ＤＳ (kanken DS) and loving every minute of it, but.. What's the difference between these two "Rei"?
http://www.samurai-doraemon.demon.nl/%97%df.JPG
I think the left one looks better in some way, but I remember I learned it like the one on the right.. Is the left one something new? :relief:

undrentide

Feb 10, 2007, 07:52

Interesting topic, Leon!

When writing with a pen, I always write the one on the left because I think I was taught it when I learnt this kanji, but I know there're people who write the right one, too. But I never paid much attention to this kanji...
(I would like to hear which one other members use for their hand-writing!)

My display shows the right one, and as far as I checked with my IME and 漢和辞典, I cannot find any difference - it is not on the 異字体 list, either.

So could it be just a matter of 書体/style?
:relief::relief::relief:

I found many different fonts for Japanese characters, and it seems only
教科書体
行書体
楷書体
shows the left ones.
5601

Mikawa Ossan

Feb 10, 2007, 08:08

I was taught that that one on the left is for typeface, whereas the the one on the right is what is used for writing.

JimmySeal

Feb 10, 2007, 16:01

The one on the right (in leonmarino's post) is the one I see almost all the time in print, but I think the one on the left is typical for handwriting. My Japanese teacher corrected me when I wrote it to look like the one on the right.

Wish I had a DS and that software. It sounds awesome.

epigene

Feb 10, 2007, 16:11

According to my very vague memory of school education, I think I was taught to write the kanji as shown on the left... :relief:

leonmarino

Feb 10, 2007, 16:25

Hm!! So to summarize all your replies:

Nobody knows for sure
The left one is often "taught"
And the right one is more often used when typing?
Or the left one!?

I should surf the net to get to the bottom of this.. :relief:

And JimmySeal, why don't you get out and get it!? I had to order it etc., but you can go out and buy it in your local store right? :cool:

Mikawa Ossan

Feb 10, 2007, 17:27

I was taught that that one on the left is for typeface, whereas the the one on the right is what is used for writing.
I'm sorry. I meant to say the opposite of what I actually wrote.

Supervin

Mar 3, 2007, 20:57

The left one is handwritten. I have yet to see someone write the version on the right - which appears in print and is probably an archaic form of the character.

BTW, how's 漢検DS like?

leonmarino

Mar 3, 2007, 22:52

BTW, how's 漢検DS like?Good!! I love it.

There are two games as I might have mentioned previously:　漢検ＤＳ and ２００万人の漢検. Both are official products of the 漢字能力検定協会 (Kanji proficiency test association). I find 漢検ＤＳ to be more polished and complete than ２００万人の漢検, because it has more diverse questions, mini-games and better (more difficult!) examinations. However, I like using とことん漢字能 for repeatedly practicing Kanji, because of its different interface.

I'm kind of stuck at level 6 right now (5th grade of elementary school level) but I'll get there!! I'm practicing as often as I can and I must say it's helping. Wish I had more time so I could practice Kanji 24/7 hehehe. :p

dark_secrester

Apr 15, 2007, 02:18

I always think of no-one but myself, so the beauty of 私　is indescribable.

:D Only Joking, but my favourite kanji is 大麻（たいま）
Joking again :D

Ghik

May 4, 2007, 16:32

I don't know why, but...

使

Shiroi na Tenshi

Jun 18, 2007, 07:54

My favorite kanji is AME, or rain. It reminds all of the kanji for heaven, but it also includes the obvious droplets of rain. <sigh!> makes you wish you were in a flurry of Sakurayuki right about now.

ハダカ

Jan 28, 2008, 11:50

My most beloved is 狂　:) Why? Just reminds me of myself ^^ Reminds me what I am :-)

kameron

Jan 28, 2008, 11:56

I like 亀, I scribble it on everything.:cool:

I also like 夢, 感, 曜, 楽.

As well as anything with a tick on the end, such as:
電, 元, 記.

ハダカ

Jan 30, 2008, 18:29

What then means 楽ラメン?
P.S. And also I like 忍術　as well :p

bachir

Jan 30, 2008, 20:15

THANKS LEONMARINO for the great site JLPT kanji project which is quite helpful.
:happy:

Iknow, however, another one which i'm using right now. there are many sentences and explanations .really cool !
here it is: www.thejapanesepage.com

don't know if it's already been put in this thread but anyway .

JimmySeal

Jan 30, 2008, 23:03

What then means 楽ラメン?
P.S. And also I like 忍術　as well :p
Raku Ramen, sounds like a type of noodles or something.

忍術 - ninjutsu, the ninja discipline.

ハダカ

Jan 31, 2008, 02:13

You got me now. I'm done. I was thought that that this phrase from ナルトアニメ will little known but I was wrong :)

leonmarino

Feb 26, 2008, 22:06

Hello again.
Did anyone of you ever take a Kanji Kentei test? I took the 5kyuu test in February. 5kyuu involves the 1006 kanji of elementary school, so I think I made it. Gotta start studying for 4kyuu now.. :relief:

JimmySeal

Feb 27, 2008, 00:03

I took level 3 last October. Planning to take (and hopefully pass) level 2 this coming October.

Fun test.

AWellEarth

Apr 9, 2008, 13:13

Learning for Level 1 test is fun & taking a while...

I like the Radical Count method... I have a sincere appreciation for origin & use of all strokes!

LukeSettle

May 26, 2008, 10:26

Raku Ramen, sounds like a type of noodles or something.

「楽ラメン」 could that translate to easy ramen? ahaha
Wow, i was looking through a japanese-english dictionary and the kanji for mist just looked ridiculous.

霧　

and in my japanese textbook it says that 「竜」　was shortened from 「龍」 which then was tripled and placed like 「口　⇒　品」　made dragons flying.

:D

漢字の観賞が。。。
Even if kanji drive people crazy in trying to learn and remember, they add so much to the japanese language in an aesthetic sense in my opinion.

ASHIKAGA

May 26, 2008, 11:30

Not as ridiculous as 鷹 (たか = a Hawk) or 麒麟 (きりん = a Giraffe or the mythical creature that you see on the label on a KIRIN BEER bottle). 　
　

Elizabeth

May 26, 2008, 11:42

「楽ラメン」 could that translate to easy ramen? ahaha
Wow, i was looking through a japanese-english dictionary and the kanji for mist just looked ridiculous.
霧
雨　＋　務　(（霧、務 (duty, work, fill a position) each have one reading of む so I'm assuming the borrowing was phonetic and maybe related to an archaic meaning.） Just memorize the darn thing. It isn't worth the effort of piling on another layer of information to try and remember the first one by. :relief:

LukeSettle

May 26, 2008, 11:52

Not as ridiculous as 鷹 (たか = a Hawk) or 麒麟 (きりん = a Giraffe or the mythical creature that you see on the label on a KIRIN BEER bottle). 　
　

Oh wow, those are pretty ridiculous! D8

雨　＋　務　(（霧、務 (duty, work, fill a position) each have one reading of む so I'm assuming the borrowing was phonetic and maybe related to an archaic meaning.） Just memorize the darn thing. It isn't worth the effort of piling on another layer of information to try and remember the first one by. :relief:

Ahahaha Im not even near learning that kanji yet, im using remembering the kanji.