Do Japanese citizens pay for the US troops presence? [Archive]

undrentide

Dec 5, 2006, 22:28

Hey, at least they are paying for the "Few and the Proud", those who wear the globe and the anchor, the US Marine Corps are definately worth paying good yen for. Imagine if North Korea attacked Japan? Just for them to be there, without firing a single round, they prevent missles from being fired, saving millions of Japanese lives. I think it would have been better if Douglas McArthur gave all Japanese US Citizenship, and made Japan into an American state. I am sure that many Japanese today who love everything American would have loved that.

Making Japan into a part of the US?
A big, resounding "NO, THANK YOU"!!

232.6 billion Yen (approx. 101 mil. GBP/193 mil. US$/150 mil. Euro) a year is too much to pay, especially when there are so many crimes comitted by those stationed in Japan... I admit their presence does help to fend off NK but the US also needs a base to protect their country from the NK missiles and Japan is located in such a convenient place.

For people living near the base, it should be hard to tell whether the US troops are there to protect them or harm them. Missiles have not reached Japan yet (so far) but the robbery and rapes are already there.

Nicholas0016

Dec 5, 2006, 23:16

bexchurnside

Dec 5, 2006, 23:50

You make the US troops to be robbery and rapers? Please correct me if I misread that statement.
The Marines wear on their Class A uniforms, the Globe and the Anchor. Most join the Army, Navy, or Airforce, but the Marines are Marines by identity. How could people not give a hoot about the Globe and the Anchor, living under Semper Fedelis? So when saying troops, please be specific in separating Marines from the rest of the soldiers, as it is not fair.

nurizeko

Dec 6, 2006, 00:37

I'm asking that because here in Germany, the German government needs to pay partly for the presence of the US troops here, and the money is of course funded from the tax we citizens pay.
But why should we need them anymore? The Cold War has ended decades ago, US troops never helped German citizens during several big floodings while German troops were deployed no matter young or old. In one town where the flooding was very bad, there was a US base who just watched, while a German company from a base much far away came to rescue and build water barriers.
IMO, we are wasting money and those money should be re-directed to the German Bundeswehr who we can rely on more.

It all started in the 1930's when Hitler took control.
Several years later after a poorly thought out and overall morally wrong war, Germany lost. To the Americans amongst others.

Hence the bases to this day, thats why my country has bases in germany aswell.

As for the American army not helping, their the kinda army that does alot of fighting and a little less humanitarian work.

Or maybe they just felt the Germans could handle it, who knows, maybe US forces need permission to leave the US bases onto German soil when acting in an official capacity.

undrentide

Dec 6, 2006, 00:56

You make the US troops to be robbery and rapers? Please correct me if I misread that statement.

No, I don't. And yes, you did.
I might not be clear enough, but you misunderstood what I'm talking about.

I don't think the whole US troops could commit crimes, majority of people must be great people, but it is also true that some of them do commit such crimes - unfortunately it is often reported on TV news.

Such crimes of course are not unique to them, I'm sure the number of Japanese offender is way far more than those from the US troops considering the number of population of Japanese.

Yet...
When I hear the military forces, I expect diciplined people. They are there believing they are doing what they believe is right, aren't they? Considering that and also about the astronomical amount of money being paid to them from our tax, for our security and to protect us, learning that something quite opposite is happening is more than disappointment.

Nicholas0016

Dec 6, 2006, 17:55

No, I don't. And yes, you did.
I might not be clear enough, but you misunderstood what I'm talking about.
I don't think the whole US troops could commit crimes, majority of people must be great people, but it is also true that some of them do commit such crimes - unfortunately it is often reported on TV news.
Such crimes of course are not unique to them, I'm sure the number of Japanese offender is way far more than those from the US troops considering the number of population of Japanese.
Yet...
When I hear the military forces, I expect diciplined people. They are there believing they are doing what they believe is right, aren't they? Considering that and also about the astronomical amount of money being paid to them from our tax, for our security and to protect us, learning that something quite opposite is happening is more than disappointment.

Ok, go live in vietnam then if you believe the military do nothing. Maybe it can be south and north japan? There is war still in place with North Korea. Its only a ceasefire. If they ever broke that cease fire, where do you think the first place the would target? South Korea, and Japan. You think North Korea would show mercy to your people? They have Russian Nukes that they can shoot off of a ship.

Military Troops are not their to enslave your people , that is just hate coming from your mouth. The military is NOT an occupier. We are a defender.

Another reason military bases are there is because we are an ally with Japan. Allys protect each other, they dont turn their back. Allys put the pressure on north korea risking national security in our own country. Allys do that for other countries.

nurizeko

Dec 6, 2006, 21:06

232.6 billion Yen (approx. 101 mil. GBP/193 mil. US$/150 mil. Euro) a year is too much to pay, especially when there are so many crimes comitted by those stationed in Japan...

If the US military pulled out it would cause Japan to suffer a horrible enlightenment that all their crime is infact overwhlemingly commited by Japanese.

The US troops arent all wild thugs out to take advantage of the laws of a foreign country, its just Japanese media takes the acts of a tiny minority of US troops, and turns it into a sensationalised news-report.

The Gaijin serves as a nice scape-goat for a country thats big on denial.

japantvhost

Dec 10, 2006, 10:22

Directly and indirectly is the answer. You don't host foreign troops on your home soil without paying something

TwistedMac

Dec 10, 2006, 11:02

The Marines wear on their Class A uniforms, the Globe and the Anchor. Most join the Army, Navy, or Airforce, but the Marines are Marines by identity. How could people not give a hoot about the Globe and the Anchor, living under Semper Fedelis? So when saying troops, please be specific in separating Marines from the rest of the soldiers, as it is not fair.
Not only does this only make a moderate amount of sense, but it is also quite naive to think one section of a country's armed forces is somehow excempt from suspicion in matters like crimes.
Remember that your "globe and anchor" people are still only people. Some of them don't give a toss about Semper Fidelis.

Every armed force has a slogan, almost all with a quite catchy ring to it, and many in Latin. That doesn't mean they automatically didn't do anything.

When I was in the army, my company's slogan was Strike fast, Strike hard. We didn't though.

bexchurnside

Dec 12, 2006, 15:45

Not only does this only make a moderate amount of sense, but it is also quite naive to think one section of a country's armed forces is somehow excempt from suspicion in matters like crimes.
Remember that your "globe and anchor" people are still only people. Some of them don't give a toss about Semper Fidelis.
Every armed force has a slogan, almost all with a quite catchy ring to it, and many in Latin. That doesn't mean they automatically didn't do anything.
When I was in the army, my company's slogan was Strike fast, Strike hard. We didn't though.
What was your rank? Were you a commissioned officer or an enlisted man? If you were an officer, did you commission through the ranks or were you college op? (ROTC)? 09S? What was your MOS? Were you 11A or 11B?

Japan_Observer

Dec 13, 2006, 07:45

Media attention on this issue has made it difficult for people to see that for the most part communities that host bases are happy to have them there; there is a "silent majority" phenomenon at work. Those who are opposed to the US presence are the loudest, but loudness does not equal broad and deep hostility.

Moreover, if you look at US deployments in Japan, the greatest concern that could undermine the US presence here is not crimes by US soldiers, sailors, and marines, but rather a jet crash in a heavily populated area. Atsugi and Yokota airbases are both located in the heavily populated Kanto, and were a US plane to crash it could have a major backlash for US forward deployments.

Hence the current bilateral course of action: consolidate the US presence and create facilities that are shared by the JSDF and the US military.

名無し

Dec 18, 2006, 05:56

It is rather surprising that no one so far mentioned the very keyword omoiyari yosan (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=omoiyari-yosan+OR+%22%E6%80%9D%E3%81%84%E3%82%84%E3%82%8A%E 4%BA%88%E7%AE%97%22+OR+%22%E6%80%9D%E3%81%84%E9%81 %A3%E3%82%8A%E4%BA%88%E7%AE%97%22), Japan has basically been begging US troops not to leave, since the end of Cold War.

dogcountry

Jan 1, 2007, 07:40

bexchurnside

Feb 15, 2007, 06:17

I've read all the above about whether US forces should leave Japan. I think we would learn more if Japanese citizens spoke up ON THIS FORUM. I favor US forces remain in Japan for protective reasons. I was part of the US Occupation of Japan. The citizens wanted this. I also believe that Japanese males should be accepted in the US armed forces. I believe that after those individuals finish their military obligation they will obtain full US citizenship.
RB BMCS USN (Ret)

I do agree with you. I even found a post on hawaiithreads that gives a concrete example of a Japanese male who desired to become a US Marine himself, and work in Okinawa with the III Marines. http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=11904

I think he would benefit a lot to learn that to be a translator in the Marine Corps, one needs to get a
Defense Language Proficiency Test
Asian Pacific Languages.
2739 -- Japanese

And, translators do not necessarily "see combat", so that is a cushy desk job. Since Japanese males wouldn't be shooting any of their own, but just doing some sort of paperwork, I cannot see why they wouldn't do it. They would also get to practice English with us for free. I could see with the many finding difficulty finding work, that many would only be too happy to join up with the Marines.

By the way, if Japanese men joined the US forces, they would all make the Marines. These guys capable of doing Kamikaze have more balls than your average US Marine. Even with inferior PT skills, making it in the Marines is about mental spirit, more so than physical capabilities. Any US Marine would agree with me on this. Hooah!

SEMPER FI.

The Yamato Damashi will suffice for the Eagle, Globe, and the Anchor. Hooah!

dogcountry

Feb 15, 2007, 07:25

That's well and good. I look at that subject a bit differently. I don't believe the average young Japanese male, healthy, eager to amount to something would be contented with a cushy job as a US serviceman. I spent some three years in Japan and later returned there for other reasons. The male Japanese friends I made voiced their opinions/ desires re: the subject of being part of US Forces. Japanese Schools have for many years been teaching English to the students. Sorry to say during the war the schools were forbidden to teach English. I know, as my lady finished HS and knew no English. When I arrived there I joined a Japanese language class on base and some of the students had come up from conflict in the Pacific with no hard feelings. I went through two additional Japanese language schools at my expence. So I still say, allow the Japanese to enter our Armed Forces with full benefits and full retirement benefits also.

KirinMan

Feb 15, 2007, 07:38

bexchurnside, don't be fooled by that poster on the thread you linked to, he or she has posted the same information on a number of message boards related to the Marine Corps, including this board under the handle jonathancameroon(sp?).

Anyway back to the OP yes the Japanese government and by default myself as well are paying a huge chunck of money to support the US Military here in Japan. The US Government even expects the Japanese Gov to pay for the building of new facilities in Guam to "assist", (I read that as bribery) in the relocation of a considerable number of Marines and their families from Okinawa to Guam. Guam currently does not have the infrastructure or facilities to support an estimated 18,000 Marines and their families.

Anyway on that note I think that it is a mistake to move those Marines and their families as it is usually the unaccompanied military members and the Marines that are in the combat units that often commit crimes here in Okinawa. Well that is probably another topic and not related to the OP's question.

Arguably the Japanese were able to rebuild their economy and country as a whole due in part to the US Military presence here in Japan. The Japanese never really had to worry about defense spending and were able to concentrate on the civilian side of the economy. Which they managed to do very well as history shows. The Japanese built as you know the economic powerhouse that is still chugging along today.

There are other political factors involved in keeping the US here as well. Nations in the region have long memories and do not want to see the US pull out partially out of fear of a Japanese military build up that would be unrestrained by the US. Economically Japan, in my opinion, could very easily build a very well equipped and highly trained military in a very short time. The SDF in many ways would fit that purpose very easily.

It is not an easy subject even for many here in Japan. But from my take on it so far the US Military, while quite possibly in the next 10 to 20 years, will decrease their precense here, a total pullout I don't think is in the cards. However much many would wish it to be so. Japanese politicians if anything are realists and understand the reasoning and rational to keeping them here, and by paying to keep the bases they also are helping their country continue to develop and grow economically and politically. Having the US guaruntee your safety, at least right now, is a pretty safe bet.

dogcountry

Feb 15, 2007, 07:54

KirinMan

Feb 15, 2007, 08:40

I don't exploit any one particular branch of our forces In Japan. I happened to be US Navy and I made it a point to not hobble with gung ho marines. Neither did I then and still don't get into the politics of both governments. My topic was geared toward the Japanese citizen and whether our forces should remain in Japan. I was mostly a Navy diver (scuba only) and didn't have time for politics. Sorry I can't get on that subject as I simply am not informed to discuss politics.

Ok fair enough, all I can share with you is from my personal knowledge of the situation here in Okinawa.

There are many Okinawan's that do not want the bases here, they see them as a nuisance and a burden on the people. Yet they are not blind to the fact that the economic value that the bases have for the island and it's people is very important and thye understand that there needs to be something to replace them before the island's bases are totally returned to Japan.

On the other hand you have many people that actually own the land the bases are using that do not want the bases returned, because they would lose the income that they get from the rent or compensation they receive from the Japanese Gov for use of their land. To some it is enough that they do not have to work to survive.

You know one thing I find to be rather ironic is that there is one Union on the base for the base workers that actually has a plank in their constitution that avocates the removal of all US Military Bases in Japan. They want the bases removed, but want the money and stability of having the job on the base. They often fight for an increase in pay and the number of workers on the bases as it is. Doesn't make too much sense to me. The other union is more realistic and desires to work with the military to keep relations peaceful between the military and their Japanese members and community.

As you probably know base workers are similar in many respects to government employees. Go figure huh!

dogcountry

Feb 15, 2007, 08:50

KirinMan

Feb 15, 2007, 09:09

Wow! I just viewed that Hawaii thread. Oh! I couldn't handle myself in there as so centered on one particular topic. Most I'd say are second generation and maybe third generation Nisei and I believe mostly populated in Hawaii. I'll stay right here and be comfortable. At the base at Yokosuka I pulled some strings and got my lady a job at the Telephone Exchange answering calls coming in by spoken Japanese citizens. Her immediate boss was a Nisei lady and my Michan could not put up with her dominance being in charge of other citizens too. After listening I had her quit.

This is probably off topic here and I apologize for it ahead of time.....

My wife works on base as well as a teacher at the CDC and believe it or not she has more problems with Japanese spouses and people of Japanese heritage than the American parents of children that she teaches.

She often complains to me about their arrogance and "superior" attitude.

bexchurnside

Feb 15, 2007, 11:43

This is probably off topic here and I apologize for it ahead of time.....
My wife works on base as well as a teacher at the CDC and believe it or not she has more problems with Japanese spouses and people of Japanese heritage than the American parents of children that she teaches.
She often complains to me about their arrogance and "superior" attitude.

You know, them Hawaiian Japanese American 2nd 3rd, and 4th appear to be too quick to show their loyalty to the US.

It might be weird to have those who appear to be your kind turn on their ancestors, but what about the American Revolution with the British fighting the British? How about the war of 1812 with Canadians and Americans fighting each other when many of have the same ancestry!

That fellow Craig Watanabe in that Hawaiithread is quite a character though.

Sukotto

Feb 18, 2007, 13:17

as usual with these types of things
"dollar or yen amounts cannot show the true price payed"

of course, the Okinawans pay the most, for decisions made in Tokyo and Washington
They house, I believe, 75% of all US bases in Japan.
The following two links contain email responses I posted from authors
of chapters of the book Okinawa: Cold War Island

under the threads with the following titles
Is it time for US Force to leave Japan? (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=325497&postcount=44)
&
100.000 crimes commited by US forces in Japan (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=327769&postcount=75)

But also,
a military base right in the capital city! (http://www.jpri.org/members/mcneill_JT_05-09-06.html) "unprecedented for an independent nation" & where real estate is, of course, mega-expensive

While the population of Japan as a whole, may or may not be "loud",
those living in the immediate vacinity of bases do from time to time
lose their "cool". That is, I have never read about how people far away
from bases feel, but it seems evident the people living next door do pay a price that politicians in the capital cities do not and have felt the need to exercise their inalienable rights.

Kinneary

Mar 1, 2007, 03:57

Regarding whether Japanese want the Americans to be in Japan, a recent poll taken shows that 80% of JNs favor the alliance with the US, while 73% believe it's important for the US to be stationed in Asia, and 67% believing that it's important for the US to maintain bases in Japan. That said, it's pretty obvious that most Japanese favor the US bases out here. (I tried to post the link to this survey, but was denied as I don't have enough posts yet.)

And as far as crime committed by US servicemen, I was interested in finding out what exactly the truth was behind that. Recently, my base had an incident where a couple of our sailors had a drunk driving head-on collision with a family of four. The CO of our base apologized to the family on television, and here on base we took a lot of flak regarding drunk driving. After speaking with the Japanese we have working here (I'm a corpsman working in a medical clinic), I got the impression that Americans were lawless hethens who couldn't be controlled. So I decided to look up the facts for myself.

Americans commit the least amount of crime per capita (.016%) than any other national group in Japan. Lower than Thais (.051%), Russians (.271%), Chinese (.428%), and even Japanese (.291%) themselves. So arguing that American troops commit too many crimes, or that we're 'undisciplined' is an invalid argument, considering we're the most disciplined in the country.

Sukotto

Mar 1, 2007, 05:28

Since the complaint coming from Japanese around the bases is about US troops presence and the crimes committed by soldiers as a result of bases, any statistical analysis should not seek to mix non-military immigrants, expats, ect.

Do you know if these numbers mix military and those that have nothing to do with the base foot prints?

KirinMan

Mar 1, 2007, 06:04

So arguing that American troops commit too many crimes, or that we're 'undisciplined' is an invalid argument, considering we're the most disciplined in the country.

I think you may have missed the point somewhat, if the military wasn't here then those crimes would not have been committed. Crime is used as one reason that people like to complain about the bases, but it is much more complex an issue than that.

As the only American military here in Japan, yeah I suppose you are the "most" disciplined, but if you want to compare yourselves to something else, no you guys really are hardly disciplined at all.

You are getting better in comparison to the past but you still have a long way to go. If you understand anything about the culture and the people you may understand what I just wrote there. It also all depends what you define discipline as, I wouldn't go shouting it off the roof tops that your the "best" in Japan. Because there are people here that are more disciplined than the US Military.

The facts that you looked up, I would be willing to bet have no reference to the US Military, I could be wrong here but crime statistics concerning the US Military are kept separate from the civilian statistics.

If you want to include the link just drop the h from http and write the rest of it in, people that are interested will understand and check out the information for themselves.

Gentleman10

Mar 8, 2007, 06:42

I think you may have missed the point somewhat, if the military wasn't here then those crimes would not have been committed. Crime is used as one reason that people like to complain about the bases, but it is much more complex an issue than that.
As the only American military here in Japan, yeah I suppose you are the "most" disciplined, but if you want to compare yourselves to something else, no you guys really are hardly disciplined at all.
You are getting better in comparison to the past but you still have a long way to go. If you understand anything about the culture and the people you may understand what I just wrote there. It also all depends what you define discipline as, I wouldn't go shouting it off the roof tops that your the "best" in Japan. Because there are people here that are more disciplined than the US Military.

I have to go with Obeika on this one man. Frankly that was kinda embarrassing as an American that you have to pride yourself on good behavior. Dude, it's the United States military. Shouldn't you expect to have higher standards of discipline to begin with? Especially when you're in a foreign country?? Argh, this kinda-- no-- it really bugs me that Americans have this 'the world is our playground' kind of attitude as long as we're doing the right thing on an overall basis.
Think about it this way, if we're going to play world police, then if anything, shouldn't we be doing it in an even more respectful manner that what we usually do at home? I mean common, it's basic housemanners. Your mom tells you to be on your best behavior when you go over to Billy's house, so shouldn't we be doing this in foreign countries as well (meaning you act better than the way you act at home)? If the US promises to do something, then we aught to promise to do a good job of it, and not just think we should be permitted to produce a certain amount of crime. I think this has something to do with being proud of what we do and doing it well if you know what I mean...

I love our military, and honestly I think most would agree that our hearts as Americans are in the right place, but that sometimes our actions dont' reflect that. I just find it sad/slightly embarrassing that establishments such as our esteemed and disciplined military also reflect that attitude in a foreign country.

hanachan

Mar 20, 2007, 23:39

I'm asking that because here in Germany, the German government needs to pay partly for the presence of the US troops here, and the money is of course funded from the tax we citizens pay.
But why should we need them anymore? The Cold War has ended decades ago, US troops never helped German citizens during several big floodings while German troops were deployed no matter young or old. In one town where the flooding was very bad, there was a US base who just watched, while a German company from a base much far away came to rescue and build water barriers.
IMO, we are wasting money and those money should be re-directed to the German Bundeswehr who we can rely on more.
Germany has a great relationship with France today, it's being more important than the relationship with the US..., right?
I think that German people would not be troubled even if the US forces have gone tomorrow. In Europe the Cold War was ended, and the situation changed. But in Far East, without the US forces presence, it's very difficult for us to keep balance. I think that Japan should pay for it. Our Self Defense Force has a constitution limitaion, maybe the Bundeswehr is the same, too.
The US forces won't go out from Germany so early. The location is the best for Iraq War.

hanachan

Mar 21, 2007, 00:13

Making Japan into a part of the US?
A big, resounding "NO, THANK YOU"!!

Yay, ditto!!
Douglas McArthur did not do that. So he is still remembered as a good person though he was a dictator in Japan under occupation. :souka:

hanachan

Mar 21, 2007, 02:11

Ok, go live in vietnam then if you believe the military do nothing. Maybe it can be south and north japan? There is war still in place with North Korea. Its only a ceasefire. If they ever broke that cease fire, where do you think the first place the would target? South Korea, and Japan. You think North Korea would show mercy to your people? They have Russian Nukes that they can shoot off of a ship.
Military Troops are not their to enslave your people , that is just hate coming from your mouth. The military is NOT an occupier. We are a defender.
Another reason military bases are there is because we are an ally with Japan. Allys protect each other, they dont turn their back. Allys put the pressure on north korea risking national security in our own country. Allys do that for other countries.
Hi, Nicholas0016. (I like your Avatar)
What undrentide wrote is true. But I don't think or feel like her.
Some of untrained soldiers commit crimes. Drunk and breaking windows is not so serious, but we can't stand that 60-year-old woman was beaten to death for small money. I know that there are "groupie-girls" who are looking for soldiers around the base. Adult women should know the result of their behavior. But the worst rape case occurred 10 years ago in Okinawa. Three soldiers kidnapped school girl and raped. She was only 12. They shamed all of the US troops in Japan. Very sad and unforgiven case.

But I think that these soldiers did commit crimes wherever they were, whatever they were, they were US soldiers or not.

(Recently the news said that one of them raped and murdered his girlfriend and killed himself.)
The US forces has responsibility to educate their soldiers and control them.
In Japan the forces are demanded to be very disciplined. Of course Japan Self Defense Force is not exception.
The problem is that there are people who use the crimes of the US troops politically. Think that who get the profit if the US forces leave?
Sorry, I don't know what to say in English. That's all for tonight. maybe I will write more. maybe tommorow again.
Thanks and Oyasuminasai!

KirinMan

Mar 21, 2007, 07:26

But I think that these soldiers did commit crimes wherever they were, whatever they were, they were US soldiers or not.

Could you clarify what you mean by this please. Thank you.

hanachan

Mar 21, 2007, 09:48

KirinMan

Mar 21, 2007, 10:49

Ohayo, Obeika.
What I wanted to say is that bad men are anywhere. In those cases they were the US soldiers as the result, but we know that Japanese crimes are same or worse and the most of foreigners' crimes in Japan are committed by people from our neighbour countries.
As undretide wrote, majority of the US soldiers are great people.

Thank you, and I agree, unfortunately due to the media things have a tendency at times to get blown out of proportion in proportion to the positive things that the US military is involved with society here in Japan.

In a perfect world they wouldn't need to be here, but alas we dont live in a perfect world.

justinod

Apr 4, 2007, 01:29

Making Japan into a part of the US?
A big, resounding "NO, THANK YOU"!!
232.6 billion Yen (approx. 101 mil. GBP/193 mil. US$/150 mil. Euro) a year is too much to pay, especially when there are so many crimes comitted by those stationed in Japan... I admit their presence does help to fend off NK but the US also needs a base to protect their country from the NK missiles and Japan is located in such a convenient place.
For people living near the base, it should be hard to tell whether the US troops are there to protect them or harm them. Missiles have not reached Japan yet (so far) but the robbery and rapes are already there.
lol, ur not too bright.
A. how much would it cost Japan to provide the same amount of protection to itself that the us forces provide?

B. according to stats from 2004:
the ratio of Japanese people who commit crimes is .350%(or very close) which means that for every 100000 people that are japanese in japan, 350 commit a crime (or did in 2004).
the ratio for americans using the same calculations is .016%, that means that for every 100000 americans in japan, 16 commit a crime.
do the math....

KirinMan

Apr 4, 2007, 06:14

lol, ur not too bright.

Dude there is no need to make comments to people like that.

You miss the point here, it matters zero about the percentages, the fact that one AMERICAN SERVICEMEMBER commits one crime is the problem. If they weren't here it wouldn't have happened way of thinking, it's that simple.

Mikawa Ossan

Apr 4, 2007, 06:22

lol, ur not too bright.
A. how much would it cost Japan to provide the same amount of protection to itself that the us forces provide?
B. according to stats from 2004:
the ratio of Japanese people who commit crimes is .350%(or very close) which means that for every 100000 people that are japanese in japan, 350 commit a crime (or did in 2004).
the ratio for americans using the same calculations is .016%, that means that for every 100000 americans in japan, 16 commit a crime.
do the math....
I agree with Obeika. It's not about the numbers.

It's psychologically different for an American serviceman in Japan to commit a crime against a Japanese national than for a Japanese serviceman to do so.

KirinMan

Apr 4, 2007, 07:07

It's psychologically different for an American serviceman in Japan to commit a crime against a Japanese national than for a Japanese serviceman to do so.

or an ordinary Japanese citizen as well. :-)

hanachan

Apr 4, 2007, 08:34

I agree with you, Obeika and Mikawa Ossan.
justinod,
undrentide said "NO" to bexchurnside's this part :
I think it would have been better if Douglas McArthur gave all Japanese US Citizenship, and made Japan into an American state.
about this point, I also say "NO THANK YOU".

justinod

Apr 4, 2007, 18:12

I agree with you, Obeika and Mikawa Ossan.
justinod,
undrentide said "NO" to bexchurnside's this part :
about this point, I also say "NO THANK YOU".
ummm.... and? i dont exactly get what ur point is on this one. what does this have to do with my post?

justinod

Apr 4, 2007, 18:21

Dude there is no need to make comments to people like that.
You miss the point here, it matters zero about the percentages, the fact that one AMERICAN SERVICEMEMBER commits one crime is the problem. If they weren't here it wouldn't have happened way of thinking, it's that simple.
it is wrong of people to see one crime committed by an american as somehow worse than one crime committed by a japanese national. yes, there will be people that commit crimes in any walk of life.
personally, i would love for my tax paid forces here in japan redeployed to guam, saipan, etc. it would be much cheaper for me and the rest of the tax payers.
but to digress to the point here:
the military does its best to keep its people in line. the us servicemembers are good people. if you think that them leaving will somehow make people feel better and that that is worth the VERY high cost of them leaving, then nothing i say will change your mind.
life is about marginal cost/benefit. the japanese government is smart enough (regardless of some politicians' talk) to realize that the cost is less than the benefit.

I agree with Obeika. It's not about the numbers.
It's psychologically different for an American serviceman in Japan to commit a crime against a Japanese national than for a Japanese serviceman to do so.
psychology: determined by the maturity of the individual.
reality: virtually crime free us servicemember population.
YOU CAN NOT GOVERN POLICIES AS VITAL AS JAPAN'S PROTECTION, US-JAPAN RELATIONS, ETC BASED ON PSYCHOLOGY, FEELINGS, PREJUDICE, OR BIGOTRY.

taid

Apr 4, 2007, 18:52

hm... interesting.....

KirinMan

Apr 4, 2007, 20:04

it is wrong of people to see one crime committed by an american as somehow worse than one crime committed by a japanese national.

Yes, you still seem to be missing the point, if they weren't here then the crime wouldn't have occured. That doesn't just go for the US Military, but ANY foreigner's in Japan. Once you are able to see it from that point of view the rest becomes a moot point.

yes, there will be people that commit crimes in any walk of life.

I don't think anyone will argue with you about that. I agree as well, it would be overly naive to think otherwise.

personally, i would love for my tax paid forces here in japan redeployed to guam, saipan, etc. it would be much cheaper for me and the rest of the tax payers.

Before I make a comment to this quote by you, I would really love to know where you are from, and what your nationality is. This is from your profile, would you please update it so people here can accurately assess and make replies to you without having to make assumptions. Thank you.

Country/State of residence:
Japan
Length of stay in Japan:
Never been to Japan
Gender:
Male

the military does its best to keep its people in line. the us servicemembers are good people.

The majority are good people, I will agree with that, and I agree that the military has been doing a better job of educating it's people about life and living here. There is no comparison to the "past", BUT it still needs to get better. I don't EVER want to see a US Military helicopter crash land on a Japanese University ever again, or a bunch of US Military personel rape a 12 year old girl, or murder a 20ish something college student among a list of other serious crimes and "mis-haps".

the japanese government is smart enough (regardless of some politicians' talk) to realize that the cost is less than the benefit.

All depends on whose point of view you are looking at it from. There will come a point where the "costs" human and otherwise outweigh the benefits.
Please answer the questions above about your profile, I would like to expand my comments to you, thanks.:-)

YOU CAN NOT GOVERN POLICIES AS VITAL AS JAPAN'S PROTECTION, US-JAPAN RELATIONS, ETC BASED ON PSYCHOLOGY, FEELINGS, PREJUDICE, OR BIGOTRY.

You know when you "shout" like this people have a tendency to overlook everything else you had to say in your post. Just as an added comment I would add that like it or not all of these things "PSYCHOLOGY, FEELINGS, PREJUDICE, OR BIGOTRY are a fact of life.

pipokun

Apr 4, 2007, 21:31

B. according to stats from 2004:
the ratio of Japanese people who commit crimes is .350%(or very close) which means that for every 100000 people that are japanese in japan, 350 commit a crime (or did in 2004).
the ratio for americans using the same calculations is .016%, that means that for every 100000 americans in japan, 16 commit a crime.
do the math....

The statistics does not include crimes of residents in Japan.
I think it is fair that you should compare the data upon Japanese who commit crimes outside Japan.

2005年（平成17年）海外邦人援護統計
http://www.anzen.mofa.go.jp/anzen_info/spt2005.html
犯罪加害 The number of Japanese commited crimes outside Japan:　598
犯罪被害 The number of Japanese who were victims outside Japan: 7070
In 2005, 17,403,565 in total went overseas

do the math, please.

Anyways, it is unusual for Japanese or American who commit crimes outside their country.

justinod

Apr 5, 2007, 01:18

The statistics does not include crimes of residents in Japan.
I think it is fair that you should compare the data upon Japanese who commit crimes outside Japan.
do the math, please.
Anyways, it is unusual for Japanese or American who commit crimes outside their country.
i am slightly confused by "data upon Japanese who commit crimes outside Japan". are u saying it should add in crimes committed by japanese abroad? and yes, the data i saw included all crimes committed in japan broken down by nationality. i am a resident, but my nationality is US. the data added in all crime from citizens, residents, and visitors.
math: victim: .04%, criminal: .003% but honestly, these numbers mean what concerning crime in japan, focused on us forces...

justinod

Apr 5, 2007, 01:38

i havent figured out the quoting system here yet, sorry:
"Yes, you still seem to be missing the point, if they weren't here then the crime wouldn't have occured. That doesn't just go for the US Military, but ANY foreigner's in Japan. Once you are able to see it from that point of view the rest becomes a moot point."
Well, that is true, but ya know, if america didnt allow any japanese people to visit at all then we wouldnt have to worry about the crimes they commit. hey, if japan got rid of all the foreigners completely then there wouldnt be any crimes committed by foreigners... lol. i believe your argument to be... irrational. lets face it, without immigration japan will be basically deserted in less than 500 years at the current rates of .9 kids per woman (2.1 required to sustain population), and hey, without that tax revenue, cheaper labor (more supply=lower prices), etc, i am sure the econ here would be just as strong. lets see, isolationism worked well b4 for japan, right?

"Before I make a comment to this quote by you, I would really love to know where you are from, and what your nationality is. This is from your profile, would you please update it so people here can accurately assess and make replies to you without having to make assumptions. Thank you." done

"The majority are good people, I will agree with that, and I agree that the military has been doing a better job of educating it's people about life and living here. There is no comparison to the "past", BUT it still needs to get better. I don't EVER want to see a US Military helicopter crash land on a Japanese University ever again, or a bunch of US Military personel rape a 12 year old girl, or murder a 20ish something college student among a list of other serious crimes and "mis-haps"."
neither do i. but like your latter comments to be quoted, it is a fact of life. it is true that people can be evil and accidents do happen. i dont ever wanna see some japanese psycho kill an innocent english teacher, but it will probably happen again. **it happens. the question is what do you do about it? lock all the military on base? that would result in an inneffective fighting force. kick them out? that would result in the demise of japan as a powerhouse country.

All depends on whose point of view you are looking at it from. There will come a point where the "costs" human and otherwise outweigh the benefits.
no us military: higher japanese taxes to provide the same amount of defense=less consumer income=less money to spend=less company revenue=less company spending=less jobs=even less consumer income.... and so on.
how many murders/rapes were committed by japanese nationals over the last five years vs americans? yes, there is no reason to allow/validate a crime, however you have to realize that it will happen it is just a matter of who is doing it.
"You know when you "shout" like this people have a tendency to overlook everything else you had to say in your post. Just as an added comment I would add that like it or not all of these things "PSYCHOLOGY, FEELINGS, PREJUDICE, OR BIGOTRY are a fact of life"
apparently not, u read it... *jk*
look, you see an equal crime committed by two different people that are of a different color as somehow... not equal. either that or you just hate the us military being here regardless of crime. if it wasnt this it would be something else, right?
the truth: yes, they are protectors, yes they can be a menace... see the key there? ARE VS CAN (shouting again)
this is not a black or white issue, there is a vast grey area here. to think that no crime will be committed or that japan can survive without the us protection is moronic

Glenn

Apr 5, 2007, 01:48

About quoting: if you click on "quote" you will automatically be given the quote tags, but if you want to insert them manually, they should look like this:

[quote]insert quoted text here[/ quote] (without the space between / and "quote")

If you want to attribute the quote to someone (preferably the one who actually said it), then after the first "quote" insert =insert name here, for example [quote=dastardly lad]quoted text[/quote ] (again, no space at the end).

KirinMan

Apr 5, 2007, 06:24

justinod, thanks for updating your profile

United States of American

:emblaugh: :emblaugh: :-)

Ok you wrote,
personally, i would love for my tax paid forces here in japan redeployed to guam, saipan, etc. it would be much cheaper for me and the rest of the tax payers.

Why in the heck do you think it would be cheaper? First off the facilities don't exist in those locations to handle the current force structure here in Japan. Secondly those locations also only provide limited training options for the US Military, it's not like you are going to get cold weather training in Guam.

Next, Japan pays the brunt of the costs of maintaining the troops here, MY tax yen supports them, I want a better value for that yen then I am getting now.

justinod

Apr 5, 2007, 14:34

Why in the heck do you think it would be cheaper? First off the facilities don't exist in those locations to handle the current force structure here in Japan. Secondly those locations also only provide limited training options for the US Military, it's not like you are going to get cold weather training in Guam.
Next, Japan pays the brunt of the costs of maintaining the troops here, MY tax yen supports them, I want a better value for that yen then I am getting now.
That is funny. I suppose that Japan bought the tanks, jets, ships, pays the salaries of all the men/women, provides the food, housing, etc. I don't think so. If you think that you can get a better value of protection than the US forces please wake up. I have a very close connection with the Japanese government's connections to the bases. My fiance happens to be a teacher at one of them as an employee of the Japanese government. (off topic: this system is broken. it is frustrating to see a group of teachers that are less concerned with teacher Japanese and more concerned with keeping their boss in the Japanese BOE happy. In other words, they have 2 bosses and the more important to most of them is the admin side, not the school side.)
Japan helps pay for minor things such as mwr, host nation teachers, etc. I dont know the stats on this, if you can find them, please do. However, I am gonna guess that Japan's government pays for about 5% when the total cost is counted up; that is the high end.
Lets do some logical thinking here. You want a 'better value' than paying less than 10% (good guess) for a massive protection scheme. You consider this to be a bad value due to a 16/100000 crime rate.
This equals: Japan blows a lot of money in Guam, Hawaii, Las Vegas, etc. every year. Yes, they have a positive impact on the economy of the US. But I think they need to stop coming because they are committing crimes. Sure its not that many, probably about 5 a year, but I want a better value.
That is pretty faulty logic.
Since the majority of cons here are proxy issues, lets look at the pros that are likewise, proxy issues:
Oil: who protects japans lifeline of oil? Japan can't do it. I am not talking Iraq here, dont go there. I am talking about the fact that for 60 years we, the US have been protecting this.
What if: I see a lot of posts here about the fact that 'nothing ever happened that required them to be here'. Yep.... I am willing to bet that it was the very presence of our troops/forces that caused nothing to happen.
Scratch my back, but screw you: I get the feeling that a lot of posters here have no appreciation for the US's friendship/alliance. This is not exclusive to Japan. However, most posters here would probably still want the US to promise protection to the nation of Japan even if our forces weren't here. right? So, you want the protection of the US but not are not willing to allow us to have a bit of strategic basing.
Constitution: This is the biggy. Until Japan revises its constitution to allow it to have a more offensively capable force, it can not protect itself. The military realm does not rely on contemplating whether one's attack will be twarted. What keeps enemies at bay is threat of a counter-attack. Japan has no way to counter attack any possible foe, i.e. NK. If Japan wants us gone, we can leave. This won't happen until the Japanese government is confident that it is protected; the constitution must be changed to allow for an offensive capability.
If you go further into the 'counter attack' mentality. What will it be that keeps NK from possibly launching a nuke when they actually have one capable of firing to Japan? The threat of retaliation either in mass conventional style or in 'eye for an eye' style. Japan could probably hit NK with few cruise missiles, bombs ( from fighters since japan doesnt really have attack craft), but that wouldn't do much. Why is nk kept at bay? the mass forces that the US has at its border and the massive firepower it can quickly project from bases here, nuke subs, etc.
Let's face it, the US-Japan alliance is militarily one sided. Japan gets massively discounted defense, we get a few bases that help serve our needs as well as Japan's defense. We will protect Japan if it is ever attacked (which is why it won't be), Do you think that a possible enemy of the US would consider Japan's involvement if it attacked the US, probably not.
Given the US's current arsenals we really don't need bases here. We can hit very hard, very quickly, and very silently with our subs, b2's etc. from the 48 states in the mainland.

The Carrier group at Yokosuka is more firepower projection than all of Japan's Air/Sea power. How can you get a better value than that?

Answer this question: Who is gaining the most from the US presence in Japan?

justinod

Apr 5, 2007, 14:55

I have to go with Obeika on this one man. Frankly that was kinda embarrassing as an American that you have to pride yourself on good behavior. Dude, it's the United States military. Shouldn't you expect to have higher standards of discipline to begin with? Especially when you're in a foreign country?? Argh, this kinda-- no-- it really bu
gs me that Americans have this 'the world is our playground' kind of attitude as long as we're doing the right thing on an overall basis.
Think about it this way, if we're going to play world police, then if anything, shouldn't we be doing it in an even more respectful manner that what we usually do at home? I mean common, it's basic housemanners. Your mom tells you to be on your best behavior when you go over to Billy's house, so shouldn't we be doing this in foreign countries as well (meaning you act better than the way you act at home)? If the US promises to do something, then we aught to promise to do a good job of it, and not just think we should be permitted to produce a certain amount of crime. I think this has something to do with being proud of what we do and doing it well if you know what I mean...
I love our military, and honestly I think most would agree that our hearts as Americans are in the right place, but that sometimes our actions dont' reflect that. I just find it sad/slightly embarrassing that establishments such as our esteemed and disciplined military also reflect that attitude in a foreign country.
The US military is far, far, FAR more disciplined than the US population in general. lets consider the lowest crime region in the US:
per 100000 people: about 2750 or so crimes.

though I haven't found stats on just the military, they are by far the 90% majority of americans here in japan:
per 100000 people: about 16 or so crimes

Now, if we were to say that all of the crimes (based on a 16 per 100000 people) committed by americans here were committed by US servicemembers (35571):
per 100000 people: about 45 or so crimes (44.98)

So, the military is much more disciplined here. they commit about 1/61st of the lowest crime region in the states. Yes, it could be better, but our forces are less prone to commit crime than the US public, the Japanese public or any set of gaijin here in Japan.

KirinMan

Apr 5, 2007, 15:08

I have a very close connection with the Japanese government's connections to the bases. My fiance happens to be a teacher at one of them as an employee of the Japanese government.

Umm so....If you want to get into a pssing contest about who has what connections I think you'll find that you very well could be on the short end of the stick. I am not going to sit here and make comparisons with you only tell you that having your fiance working as a teacher is really short.:-)

Next let's discuss your perception difficulties about what Japan pays for and doesn't pay for as you are talking about in this quote;

Japan helps pay for minor things such as mwr, host nation teachers, etc. I dont know the stats on this, if you can find them, please do. However, I am gonna guess that Japan's government pays for about 5% when the total cost is counted up; that is the high end.
Lets do some logical thinking here. You want a 'better value' than paying less than 10% (good guess) for a massive protection scheme. You consider this to be a bad value due to a 16/100000 crime rate.

Japan doesnt pay for MWR, next ALL Japanese employees on the bases are paid by the Japanese government. The US government pays them "0", there are a total of somewhere around 23,500 Japanese employees on all the bases. Do you have any idea how many military personnel there are here in Japan. About 47,000 or so, and about 5,000 DOD Civilian employees including teachers. I give you the links later.

THe cost of maintaining the troops here in Japan is over 7 billion dollars (US) of which well over HALF in paid by the Japanese government. Oh and that doesn't include the amount paid to the employees from what I understand.

This equals: Japan blows a lot of money in Guam, Hawaii, Las Vegas, etc. every year. Yes, they have a positive impact on the economy of the US.

Japan has the 2nd largest economy in the world, Japan also has the very real ability to bankrupt the US if it ever started selling off the debt that it currently holds. The US and Japan are partners, abiet the US is larger and has more interests through out the world, but dont start looking down on or thumbing your nose at the Japanese and their economy.

You come across as a very arrogant and condescending American here, as well as a few other places in this overly long and difficult to read post. Ever hear of spacing?:okashii:

This won't happen until the Japanese government is confident that it is protected; the constitution must be changed to allow for an offensive capability.

Have you read any news of late about the "debate" about this very topic? Japan is not going to go "offensive" for any reason anytime soon.

Answer this question: Who is gaining the most from the US presence in Japan?

Currently the US, definetly not Japan. It may have been something different a few years back, but not now.

You underestimate the abilities of Japan and it's people. Do you have any idea at all what the JSDF's capabilities are? Do you even know how much Japan pays for military defense spending every year? Do the research you just may be surprised at the numbers.

Given the US's current arsenals we really don't need bases here. We can hit very hard, very quickly, and very silently with our subs, b2's etc. from the 48 states in the mainland.

Good then get them the heck out of here, won't happen anytime soon and your attitude is fairly naive to me.

Sure Japan benefits, but you miss the point again:okashii:

You consider this to be a bad value due to a 16/100000 crime rate.

If you had read what I wrote and not interpreted it to mean something totally different you would have noticed that all along I was giving YOU the reason why there is sometimes consternation at the acts committed by the US military. You haven't gotten it yet.

What "value" do you place on human life?

One link out of a host of others;:-)
US Forces Japan (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/dod/usfj.htm)

KirinMan

Apr 5, 2007, 15:13

The US military is far, far, FAR more disciplined than the US population in general. lets consider the lowest crime region in the US:

Statistics mean "0" here as well.

Your logic is flawed, can't you get that? It doesn't matter one bit what the US Military does anywhere else. It's here in Japan that matters.

That's all nothing else.:-)

Rahmie

Apr 5, 2007, 16:39

Constitution: This is the biggy. Until Japan revises its constitution to allow it to have a more offensively capable force, it can not protect itself. The military realm does not rely on contemplating whether one's attack will be twarted. What keeps enemies at bay is threat of a counter-attack. Japan has no way to counter attack any possible foe, i.e. NK. If Japan wants us gone, we can leave. This won't happen until the Japanese government is confident that it is protected; the constitution must be changed to allow for an offensive capability.
If you go further into the 'counter attack' mentality. What will it be that keeps NK from possibly launching a nuke when they actually have one capable of firing to Japan? The threat of retaliation either in mass conventional style or in 'eye for an eye' style. Japan could probably hit NK with few cruise missiles, bombs ( from fighters since japan doesnt really have attack craft), but that wouldn't do much. Why is nk kept at bay? the mass forces that the US has at its border and the massive firepower it can quickly project from bases here, nuke subs, etc.
Let's face it, the US-Japan alliance is militarily one sided. Japan gets massively discounted defense, we get a few bases that help serve our needs as well as Japan's defense. We will protect Japan if it is ever attacked (which is why it won't be), Do you think that a possible enemy of the US would consider Japan's involvement if it attacked the US, probably not.
Given the US's current arsenals we really don't need bases here. We can hit very hard, very quickly, and very silently with our subs, b2's etc. from the 48 states in the mainland.
The Carrier group at Yokosuka is more firepower projection than all of Japan's Air/Sea power. How can you get a better value than that?
Answer this question: Who is gaining the most from the US presence in Japan?
And don't forget China. I'm sure they would love to get their hands on Japan with all of their technology and money! They did just shoot a satalite down a few months ago remember.:okashii:

Rahmie

Apr 5, 2007, 16:57

Japan doesnt pay for MWR, next ALL Japanese employees on the bases are paid by the Japanese government. The US government pays them "0", there are a total of somewhere around 23,500 Japanese employees on all the bases. Do you have any idea how many military personnel there are here in Japan. About 47,000 or so, and about 5,000 DOD Civilian employees including teachers. I give you the links later.

They should pay them. We have millions of dollars of weapons to protect you.

Japan has the 2nd largest economy in the world, Japan also has the very real ability to bankrupt the US if it ever started selling off the debt that it currently holds. The US and Japan are partners, abiet the US is larger and has more interests through out the world, but dont start looking down on or thumbing your nose at the Japanese and their economy.

Which would send the whole world into a recession if not a depression since we are all linked together by the stock markets. we couldn't protect japan leaving you open for any attack by any country not just NK and china. So you shouldn't act like the Japanese and their economy wouldn't be harmed by the selling of the US debt.

KirinMan

Apr 5, 2007, 18:11

They should pay them. We have millions of dollars of weapons to protect you.

Protect me, what a joke, you think I am Japanese right? Take a look at my profile and you might be surprised. I dont feel protected by the US military, not at all. It's presence here is unfortunately a necessary evil in this day and age.

Do you feel "protected" in the US by the US Military? The biggest protection the US has, not only now, but throughout history, has been the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. Not only the overly burdensome national debt that is partially due to outlandish military spending.

Which would send the whole world into a recession if not a depression since we are all linked together by the stock markets. we couldn't protect japan leaving you open for any attack by any country not just NK and china. So you shouldn't act like the Japanese and their economy wouldn't be harmed by the selling of the US debt.

You don't quite get it either do you. If you actually happened to read my post there is nothing in it that would suggest otherwise.

Oh and please don't go start thinking that if the bases were not here China or North Korea would "suddenly" attack Japan. That is ludicrous as well. The relations between these countries is not even close to the point where "open" warfare could even be thought about let alone be considered.

You also forget that China and Korea do not have the amphibious capabilities to force an invasion of this "island" country. Even theorizing about this subject is pointless.

justinod

Apr 5, 2007, 18:30

Protect me, what a joke, you think I am Japanese right? Take a look at my profile and you might be surprised. I dont feel protected by the US military, not at all. It's presence here is unfortunately a necessary evil in this day and age.
Do you feel "protected" in the US by the US Military? The biggest protection the US has, not only now, but throughout history, has been the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. Not only the overly burdensome national debt that is partially due to outlandish military spending.
You don't quite get it either do you. If you actually happened to read my post there is nothing in it that would suggest otherwise.
Oh and please don't go start thinking that if the bases were not here China or North Korea would "suddenly" attack Japan. That is ludicrous as well. The relations between these countries is not even close to the point where "open" warfare could even be thought about let alone be considered.
You also forget that China and Korea do not have the amphibious capabilities to force an invasion of this "island" country. Even theorizing about this subject is pointless.
where to start.... hmmm you dont feel protected by the us military, but they are a necessary evil.... why are they necessary?
Get your facts straight. Look at the percentage of our government's budget that is defense... not that high.
As for the amphibious capabilities of China, wait a few years... They are making that capability. And, once again, the reason that people do not attack militarily (nations) is the threat of retaliation/counterattacks. Japan can not do this. What is Japan's shield? the americans.
The relations with China/NK are only at the point they are now because Japan has been protected. Look, the US-JPN alliance is the closest in the world. Don't you think it is pretty clear who is protecting who from any POSSIBLE attack?

Statistics mean "0" here as well.
Your logic is flawed, can't you get that? It doesn't matter one bit what the US Military does anywhere else. It's here in Japan that matters.
That's all nothing else.:-)
who was i responding to in that post?
And the military here is virtually crime free, more so than the locals by 18 to 1. any questions on that?
Statistics or FACTS vs opinion or FEELINGS.... what is more important to real world situations?

KirinMan

Apr 5, 2007, 18:43

justinod replying to you is like :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: repeatedly, you do realize that my original response to you was about the perception of the Japanese people when a US Military member commits a crime here in Japan.

It had nothing to do with the pointless discussion about budgets, the protection factor, or anything else.

Do you or can you understand that?

Aerain

Apr 11, 2007, 00:51

No, I don't. And yes, you did.
I might not be clear enough, but you misunderstood what I'm talking about.
I don't think the whole US troops could commit crimes, majority of people must be great people, but it is also true that some of them do commit such crimes - unfortunately it is often reported on TV news.
Such crimes of course are not unique to them, I'm sure the number of Japanese offender is way far more than those from the US troops considering the number of population of Japanese.
Yet...
When I hear the military forces, I expect diciplined people. They are there believing they are doing what they believe is right, aren't they? Considering that and also about the astronomical amount of money being paid to them from our tax, for our security and to protect us, learning that something quite opposite is happening is more than disappointment.

You have to know that the Japanese do commit these crimes also and that the American who commit these crimes get the same treatment than any other Japanese, I don't think people should have special treatment (bad or good) because they are foreigners, but I think the US criminals should undergo their misdeed through their prison system. I don't know why the japanese taxpayers should pay for prisoners who doesn't have the japanese citizenship. Also I believe the presence of the US soldiers is important for both Japan and the US, because the presence of US military act as a bigger dissuasive against the North Korea military; although it would be very unlikely that they would ever attack Japan and the US protects their interest through the defense set up in Japan.

DoctorP

Apr 11, 2007, 09:18

... I don't think people should have special treatment (bad or good) because they are foreigners, but I think the US criminals should undergo their misdeed through their prison system. I don't know why the japanese taxpayers should pay for prisoners who doesn't have the japanese citizenship.

But why would the USA want to foot the bill to keep someone in prison for a crime committed elsewhere? I would much rather have someone convicted of a felonious crime serve their time right where the crime was committed. Why allow them to go back to the US where they would have more rights and be treated better? Doesn't sound like much of a deterrant to me.

Sukotto

Apr 11, 2007, 22:51

And don't forget China. I'm sure they would love to get their hands on Japan with all of their technology and money! They did just shoot a satalite down a few months ago remember.:okashii:

So they wanted to remove a satalite from orbit?

Keep in mind, the US, who invaded one, (arguably two) countries outside
international law under Bush (and overthrew the gov't in Haiti and attempted another in Venezuela) to extend the dishonorable endevor called empire, committing the crime against peace, has stated they want to take control of outer space.
I forget the cute phrase they used for the "defense of forward deployed troops" (i.e. an offensive tool) that is sometimes called "son of star wars".
It's under the air force though.

Aerain

Apr 12, 2007, 03:26

But why would the USA want to foot the bill to keep someone in prison for a crime committed elsewhere? I would much rather have someone convicted of a felonious crime serve their time right where the crime was committed. Why allow them to go back to the US where they would have more rights and be treated better? Doesn't sound like much of a deterrant to me.

I think you are right, then they must pay the maintenance cost for such prisoners. I mean I don't think japanese should pay for that, they already pay soo much to keep the US in their country.

Capster78

May 31, 2008, 23:00

I don't know how long this thread has been going around. I was searching for racism in Japan as I have been to Korea and personally witnessed it there. I was curious how much I would run into here. It seems there are alot of unfair generalizations made and unfair expectations as well after reading some of the posts on here.
I am a US military member. I believe it is unfair for someone to place a higher standard on another than they place on their own. For example, expecting american servicemembers to never comit any crimes. I am a law abiding citicen and I never cause any troubble as 98% of my fellow servicemembers are as well. I get verry frustrated almost to the point of saying somthing unprofessional but I am usually able to bite my tounge and just chalk up the racist expiriences I have to stupidity. I have no choice but to be here in Japan. I am bound by orders given to me to be here. I have no choice. If I don't like Japan, I can not just pack up and leave. I leave my family and friends thousands of miles away to protect this country. wether your opinon is that it needs US protection or not, is mute because we are here. I willfully signed to do this job and to protect whatever my country deemed to be worth protecting. Japan is one of them and I am happy to do it. I know the percentage of japanese who are racist twords americans or service members is a small percentage of the whole but the stigma is not. I just want to be seen as a human and to be respected as a person. I would hope many out there can look past the steryotypical and see me as someone of value just as they expect to be seen by me.
I read one post that really rubed me the wrong way. To entertain racism by saying if they were not here, thouse crimes would not have been commited is just like saying, if Japanese were not here, thouse crimes would not be commited. So are you saying you should get out of your own country? An unhabited country would be perfect.. 0% crime rate.
US servemembers are the most law abiding people by percentage than most groups. If you have commited a crime prior to the military or show that you can not be trusted they will not let you join. For example.. all service members are scrutinized with credit checks, criminal backround checks and many times, even their family members are checked as well (brothers, mothers, fathers). While we are in the military we have very strict rules and regulations we must abide by. The smallest deviation of rules will result in harsh punishement most of the time. Even being late for work can result in loosing rank and affecting possabilities of re-enlisment. When we are overseas these things are magnified. We are constantly scrutinized and told we are ambassadors of our country. Anything we do will reflect on all of us, unfair or not. The message is out there, and violaters are punished severly.
For expample, just today we had a DUI (Driveing Under the Influence) off base. This person hit a pole and fliped his car. If there had been anyone around it is verry possable he would have injured or killed someone else. I was called in on a saturday and we were put to work. After working a few hours we were lectured by our superiors on the importance of being ambassadors and that we are responsable not only for ourselves but for others around us as well (other service members). If we see somthing wrong we need to stop it (self police our own).
So I want the people on here that think the US service members are a bunch of criminals to think twice about what they are saying.
I would like to add that I hope to have posative expiriences in Japan and I hope to learn and respect the culture. However, this can not be a one way street. I hope the same appreciation and respect I give is also returned.

Glenski

May 31, 2008, 23:29

US servemembers are the most law abiding people by percentage than most groups. If you have commited a crime prior to the military or show that you can not be trusted they will not let you join. For example.. all service members are scrutinized with credit checks, criminal backround checks and many times, even their family members are checked as well (brothers, mothers, fathers).
You might want to learn more about the military and what is called "moral waivers" (waivers for enlistments, allowing in people who have indeed committed crimes before signing up). http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/07/13/more_entering_army_with_criminal_records/
Nearly 12 percent of Army recruits who entered basic training this year needed a special waiver for those with criminal records, a dramatic increase over last year and 2 1/2 times the percentage four years ago, according to new Army statistics...

Since Oct. 1, 2006, when the fiscal year began, more than 8,000 of the roughly 69,000 recruits have been granted waivers for offenses ranging in seriousness from misdemeanors such as vandalism to felonies such as burglary and aggravated assault.

Moral waivers must be approved by an officer of the rank of lieutenant colonel or higher and are required when an Army applicant has been found guilty of committing four or more minor offenses such as littering or disorderly conduct -- or two to four misdemeanors such as larcency, trespassing, or vandalism.
Applicants who have committed a single felony such as arson, burglary, aggravated assault, breaking and entering, or marijuana possession must also receive a moral waiver to join. Applicants with more than one felony -- or with a single conviction for a more serious crime such as homicide, sexual violence, or drug trafficking -- are not eligible.

And, here is a related article about Army and Marines, from NBC.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17138367/

This article from The Guardian is particularly damning with its last sentences.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/22/usa.iraq
The number of moral waivers in the military, mostly for misdemeanours such as speeding fines, reached 34,476 in 2006, or nearly 20% of all enlisted soldiers, according to the Palm Centre at the University of California. Recruits with felony convictions are more likely than other soldiers to drop out or be released from the military.

More than one felony conviction disqualifies recruits from the army or marines, but the navy and air force can admit those with multiple offences.

Want a few more stats? Here's CBS.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/14/national/main2474041.shtml
About one in five Army recruits needed a waiver to enlist in 2006, up from 12.7 percent in 2003. In addition, the report showed that the Army granted substantially fewer waivers for drug use and serious traffic violations last year than in 2003.

More than half of the Marine recruits needed a waiver in 2006, a bit higher than in 2003, and largely due to their more strict drug requirements. Felony waivers made up about 2 percent of the Marine waivers, while other lesser crimes made up about 25 percent, both up slightly from 2003.

About 18 percent of Navy recruits required a waiver, up only slightly from 2003. Two-thirds of the waivers granted by the Navy were for misdemeanor-type crimes and about 5 percent were for felonies.

Just 8 percent of Air Force recruits had waivers, down a bit from 2003. Nearly all of the waivers were for the misdemeanor-type crimes.

pipokun

May 31, 2008, 23:40

Don't worry.
The enjoying face of Japanese eating pizza/burger/whatever in the friendship days is also our face.
And you are stationed in the country where some (very few) liberal heads accuse the government of shipping of disaster relief to other country by the SDF plane.

Do Japanese citizens pay for the US troops presence?
Some people might think Japan would be a free rider, but it is just wrong.

Capster78

May 31, 2008, 23:43

Yes, there are special circumstances in which criminal behavior is overlooked. When it is minor and the individual can proove they have changed their ways. The strict rules and regulations don't change for thouse who have been waiverd. They still have to abide by the same strict rules and regs and are quickly thrown out if they don't.

Uncle Frank

Jun 1, 2008, 00:04

I saw some pretty bad behavior by my navy buddies in Japan. It almost always was fueled by booze and wanting to show off to friends. I would say 80% of the service people were fine, it was the other 20% that made me feel ashamed I was a serviceman.

Uncle Frank

:(

Capster78

Jun 1, 2008, 00:43

Yes, I have also seen loud drunk americans. It does look bad and I do get annoyed when I see this. However, being loud and drunk is not a crime. I have also seen loud and drunk Japanese, Koreans.. prety much every nationality since I have been overseas. I have been to Korea, Japan, Philippines, so I know.

USNwife

Sep 6, 2008, 14:24

capster: I agree with you 100%. I really don't think the military should be held to any higher standards than any other person. Right is right and wrong is wrong. A robbery is no more right for a civilian than it is for a service member. Sure they took an oath to serve and protect yes they did but come on now...as a human being it comes down to morals. And yes they do check service members as well as their families trust me. I am a spouse of a military member and believe you me I have been questioned by the government myself.
As for letting people into the military under a waiver. People can change and sometimes they turn to the military for discipline and change. Sometimes that's all these people need is a little discipline in their lives and they turn to the military for that change. Many are probably trying to change and do better so why criticize them for that? That's the problem with people nowadays, someone tries to better themselves and you just want to keep them down.
And again thanks capster for that last post because even in class for our orientation brief we had a japanese man doing our intercultural brief and he even said during the cherry blossom festivals here please excuse the japanese actions when they are celebrating and drinking so it's not only americans but for some reason everyone likes to put the US military under the microscope for everything. Take a look in the mirror before you speak. If you have never done anything wrong and I'm not talking about getting caught by the police and arrested, but anything lying , cheating anything then you are not perfect so should we hold that against you for the rest of your life?
Stop trying to keep people down that are trying to better themselves and their lives and doing so by protecting their country as well as others and the whole generalization of military members is getting pretty old and really does need to stop. There are tons of military service members and when someone does something wrong the entire military is always generalized for it. If one japanese citizen commits a murder should we generalize all japanese people as murderers? If one Australian commits a robbery should we generalize all australians as robbers? I mean seriously get real.

Dogen Z

Sep 8, 2008, 22:12

pipokun

Sep 8, 2008, 22:35

USNwife, I know what you mean, but you should realize that it was the first time when the US force agreed to inform the J local police about the military deserters after the Nigerian killer incident.

And don't worry I am aware that there are some activists who are always saying "no" or "Article 9". Anyways, keep posting here.

USNwife

Sep 9, 2008, 06:37

Isn't saying, "Yeah there are bad guys in our group, you should expect it," but also saying, "You don't have the right to scrutinize us so much, we don't deserve it," hypocritical at best. I think it's damned arrogant.

I don't think that is arrogant. It's the same as saying if one of your friends robs a bank, by association you are a robber. Esentially it's the same thing. It's not as if the US military is a small tiny group of people it's a large amount of people but to generalize all US military members because of some of their actions is wrong. I mean say that did happen. How would you feel being an outcast and looked at as a criminal for someone else's actions? And no one said you should "expect it" per say but there are bad people in the world and everyone is human and makes mistakes. Some make bigger mistakes than others, but when it boils down to it we are all human and we all make mistakes big or small we still all do make mistakes.

No one said anyone didn't have the "right" to scrutinize because you do have the right to do it. I just said it's getting kind of old all the generalizations that people make because of some members actions. They are not all like that and for the ones that really are good, do their job to their best ability and are kind and respectful of other people's countries it's just not fair to look upon them in that way because of someone else's actions and probably someone they don't even know. I mean life is not fair yes but that is just my opinion of it. You have your opinion and I have mine doesn't make me arrogant for having an opinion. And if you just put yourself in that situation would you enjoy it or think it fair to be guilty by association? If not then why should the rest of the members of the US military that are not like those in the news doing bad things?

Glenski

Sep 9, 2008, 12:04

The military abroad is in the public eye, so like it or not, they will be scrutinized.

Americans are arrogant. You can't deny that. I'm American, so I know what the stereotype is, and living in Japan for 10 years, I have seen a lot of arrogant newcomers. It's only after they live here a while that they learn to adapt to some degree.

But, as for your remarks, USNwife, let me say this. Yes, some (not all) of the military recruits are examined carefully before they are admitted. Yes, some are trying to use the service as a means to gain discipline and straighten themselves out. But, not all are, and obviously some are taking advantage of their situations abroad by committing crimes. Of course, that doesn't mean all servicemen are criminals, but just because they have a high profile in the public eye, they will be looked upon more openly and more carefully when a crime is committed (or even alleged) by them.

You just can't get around it. Same goes for foreign and Japanese professionals who commit crimes (lawyers, policement, doctors, teachers, etc.). Public figures are easy targets.

The real problem, though, and I've been saying this for a long time on many forums, is that the Japanese media and locals skew the data on how many crimes are actually committed vs. the percentage when compared to the local population. That is what Americans should be outraged at.

pipokun

Sep 9, 2008, 19:39

...
The real problem, though, and I've been saying this for a long time on many forums, is that the Japanese media and locals skew the data on how many crimes are actually committed vs. the percentage when compared to the local population. That is what Americans should be outraged at.

Again, you should think your argument, the local vs. the military, is to-the-point or not before getting outraged.
I am just scared if the J police or the SDF members would be proud to say "we have lower crime rate than the local!".

Maybe it is just a cultural difference, though.

Dogen Z

Sep 9, 2008, 20:00

Capster78

Sep 11, 2008, 21:22

My little rant yesterday was not aimed at anyone in particular. It was just sort of a general its-Monday-again kind of rant. I don't have a zen mind working properly yet. But if Monday affects me that way, I can imagine how it affects the young, enlisted dudes. Which brings me to what I want to say today.
The U.S. military is having difficulty getting new recruits thanks to George and Dick's Most Excellent Adventure. So the standard for new recruits have been lowered; so much so that even a few guys with serious criminal records have been allowed to join. This means keeping everyone in line will be that much harder for the commanders. For everyone's sake, I hope those commanders are successful.

This is the same line many other anti US military people have been spouting as their new attack scheme. The truth is that wavers for criminal records are less than 1% of the Army/Marine recruits every year. That is just the recruits, not takeing into account the active force that already exists prior to the wavers. So this percentage is miniscule and not enough to blame any kind of increase in crimes commited by military members. If you look at the numbers, the crime rate has actually decreased in japan. Im not going to pull up a bunch of links with statistics because they have already been presented on this message board several times and im in no mood to repeat myself. If you truely want to find out the truth you will enlighten yourself by looking them up, however I doubt you will. It is unfortunate that many people believe what they hear from others without question. This is why we have so many generalizations about different races and cultures. If we continue generalizing the world will never come together and peace will never be possable. I to am guilty of generalizing. I have on occassion thought to myself when passing a Japanese person of all the horrible things that have been said about us US military members and I think to myself.. "I wonder what this person thinks as they are passing me". Do they think im forcing myself on their soil as an imperialist? Do they think im going to try to rob them? Do they think im going to sexually assault some women somewhere? Or do they just see me as a good person who, just like them, is trying to do a job and take care of my family? I would love to make several japanese friends because I am fascinated by their culture. However, the stigma that I feel is out there makes me embaressed to even try to say hello.