Japan to teach patriotism to children

[misa.j]

TOKYO, Japan (AP) -- Japan's conservative government chipped away at two pillars of the country's postwar pacifism, requiring schools to teach patriotism and upgrading the Defense Agency to a full ministry for the first time since World War II.

The measures, enacted Friday in a vote by Parliament's upper house, form key elements of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's push to bolster Japan's international military role, build up national pride and distance the country from its post-1945 war guilt.
Full article (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/12/15/japan.pacifist.rollback.ap/index.html)
When Japan's prime minister Shinzo Abe's background being a nationalist was publicized, it gave me an impresion that there would be changes which would bring an oppression to the society. Teaching patriotism to children will only narrow their awareness on global issues, which has been much needed in Japanese education for so long.

If this propaganda is one of Abe's measures to gain his popularity, which has fallen over the perception that he has not paid enough attention to domestic issues, he is making a big mistake. I hope more voices of opponents are heard and this "reform" be reconsidered.

[名無し]

The problem of pious communists in general is that they belive that they are the only "enlightened" chosen ones and openly mock the rest of the population when preaching their dogma, instead of "let's think together" persuasive approach.
Notice how often they use the word "should."

It is understanable that they want cultural cleansing to destroy everything Japanese in the name of "progressive" "conerned citizens" in order to achieve the revolution, but their methods do not look very sophistiated.


Related thread (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23259)

[Goldiegirl]

I don't think teaching patriotism is all bad. Sometimes I feel that there isn't enough patriotism. I think it's sad when I am at a baseball game and no one around me places their hand over their heart for the national anthem. I don't think it is wise to teach just patriotism. Education should be well rounded and students need to know about other countries and their cultures. I can't tell from the article if this is bad for Japan or not. I think it will depend on just what they are going to teach; what they are going to include, or exclude from their history.

[Elizabeth]

If this propaganda is one of Abe's measures to gain his popularity, which has fallen over the perception that he has not paid enough attention to domestic issues, he is making a big mistake. I hope more voices of opponents are heard and this "reform" be reconsidered.
I don't know what to say except to remind the people that rhetoric like this, of indoctrinating a love of "beautiful Japan" by recreating a "mythical shining country on a hill" etc, were lines he used countless times during the campaign.
Along with promising to continue the visits to Yasukuni, to restore a strong and vital defense force among other Koizumi-era "reforms."

Japanese politicians, generally speaking, don't mind showing their contempt for citizens who continue to elect them without serious and due consideration. With unending scandals and corruption cases my opinion sorry to say usually isn't a lot higher. :souka:

[Japan_Observer]

He never made an unambiguous promise to visit Yasukuni; in fact, he's been deliberately vague about the whole deal, whether because it has enabled him to patch up relations with China and South Korea, or whether because his conservative credentials are solid enough that he doesn't feel the need to placate ultra-rightists, or most likely, some combination of the two.

In any case, the worst thing about the education reform bill is not so much what's in the bill -- the practical impacts of which are as of yet unknown -- but that it was a wasted opportunity for Japan to bring its education system into the twenty-first century. Every developed country -- the US included -- has to consider how to reform its education system to prepare its children for a world of rapid and ongoing change. Japan had a chance to set an international precedent, and it failed.

[名無し]

Japan had a chance to set an international precedent, and it failed.That "intelligent" poster had better make an easy phone call MEXT (http://www.mext.go.jp/english/) +81(3)5253-4111 to question them to check the real original law article paragrphs before expressing a superb opinion. I called them already.

[Toru Ranryu]

In any case, the worst thing about the education reform bill is not so much what's in the bill -- the practical impacts of which are as of yet unknown -- but that it was a wasted opportunity for Japan to bring its education system into the twenty-first century. Every developed country -- the US included -- has to consider how to reform its education system to prepare its children for a world of rapid and ongoing change. Japan had a chance to set an international precedent, and it failed.
What kind of reforms were you hoping for exactly?

[Japan_Observer]

I'm not expert enough on education policy to list specific reforms, but the goal of education in developed countries has to change. For too long education has served to purposes of industrial economies: the goal has been to produce workers who can be plugged into a large organization and contribute in a relatively static, hierarchical setting.

That won't do anymore, as developed countries move from industrial to post-industrial economies -- and find that even as they go through the painful process of moving to serviced-based, post-industrial economies, they are joined by late-starting developing countries like China and India, who are rushing right through industrialism to post-industrialism.

So the prevailing mode of education in developed countries must change as economies change. It isn't simply a matter of teaching the same things better -- the focus of usual discussion of education reform in most countries -- but of changing what is taught and how it is taught. Probably the biggest change needs to be thinking in "skill sets": corporations and governments do, why not schools too? The walls separating subjects need to be broken down at all levels, and students need to begin learning to see the web of connections between all areas of life. And they need to have strong communications skills. The abysmal failure of the American school system, at all levels, to create students who can clearly and cogently express their thoughts in written or oral communication will dog the US as its economy becomes increasingly based in the manipulation of words.

As far as Japan is concerned, the Abe reforms move the focus of Japan's education system in the opposite direction of where it should be going. Rather than focus on parochial patriotism and national traditions, Japan needs to be helping to shape global citizens, who are more comfortable in international settings than previous generations. They need to be more comfortable learning and using foreign languages (English, but others too [Chinese?]). I don't object prima facie to an education system that includes the inculcation of patriotism as one of its goals -- one of the purposes of a public school system is, after all, to imbue children with society's values -- but in this case, Abe's reforms seem out of touch with society.

Japan is changing, there's no question about that. Rather than using education reform to institutionalize resistance to change, it should be used to encourage and mold social change.

[Gentleman10]

The question I would really like answered is what will these nationalism classes be like?
In the worst case scenario, one could easily imagine a teacher with a megaphone shouting "March! 1 2 3 4!" with the Jstudnets raising their arms "Hail Japan!", but on the other hand, I think people could be blowing this a bit out of proportion as opposed to the reality. In many cases, words like "nationalism" can alarm us when we know the country has an aggressive war history, yet I think there is a certain level of "nationalism" within every country. Because we haven't focused yet on whether or not Japan is specifically extremely nationlistic or not (and from what I can tell, it's not much different from many other countries), it would be unfair to say that these laws will be for Japan's ultimate detriment.
As an American, I see the word "nationalism" as a different word for " being patriotic". For all we know, it could be simply doing things like saying their country's pledge in school (we do this in American schools, is this common for other countries?). People usually identify proudly as being an American here, and we celebrate our Independence Day etc. While the US may have its share of a nasty past full of discrimination, war, and atrocities, we stil pridefully celebrate the country we are... so why shouldn't any other country not be allowed to as well?

[Kinsao]

I think kids should be taught a realistic and balanced view of their home country - about its history, in both the good and the bad. IMO teaching the facts is the important thing, and for kids to learn which were the bad things their country did, and why these were bad, what were the consequences, what are the lessons learned, etc... and also the good things, and be proud of those good things while not thinking their home country to be "perfect". :o

[Toru Ranryu]

I think kids should be taught a realistic and balanced view of their home country - about its history, in both the good and the bad. IMO teaching the facts is the important thing, and for kids to learn which were the bad things their country did, and why these were bad, what were the consequences, what are the lessons learned, etc... and also the good things, and be proud of those good things while not thinking their home country to be "perfect". :o
Do you think the English get taught about the bad things their country has done?

[Elizabeth]

The question I would really like answered is what will these nationalism classes be like?
In the worst case scenario, one could easily imagine a teacher with a megaphone shouting "March! 1 2 3 4!" with the Jstudnets raising their arms "Hail Japan!", but on the other hand, I think people could be blowing this a bit out of proportion as opposed to the reality.
There are already suggested curriculum guidelines in place across the country, that recommend and encourage students be graded on the degree to which they demonstrate love of country, patriotism, or at the least strong interest in Japanese culture and history. All of which has caused a great deal of controversy and led only a very small minority of schools to adopt.

So I can't imagine mandating it through law making any more of a measurable difference aside from the issues it has managed to avoid addressing, such as college required courses not being offered in secondary schools, social problems of bullying and suicide, not bringing standards in line with other developed countries and on and on....:bluush:

[Mikawa Ossan]

The question I would really like answered is what will these nationalism classes be like?
As I understand it, this new legislation doesn't require the imposition of a new class specifically to teach nationalism to students. It can be done in a much more subtle manner. A deeper focus on Japanese culture and history in the regular curriculum, for example. Establishing more traditional Japanese culture based clubs at school. Starting up something akin to the Pledge of Allegience in America. Playing Kimi ga Yo before school. There are many ways to try to instill a stronger sense of nationalism in the school system.

[misa.j]

They need to be more comfortable learning and using foreign languages (English, but others too [Chinese?]).
Not only that, but they need to be comfortable in their learning environment to start with; give them more time for discussion; encourage them to question their teachers; give them assignments require research and critical thinking simultaneously; all those areas are very weak in Japanese education and needed to be emphasized, so the students don't just clam up when the opportunities are given in different settings.

The question I would really like answered is what will these nationalism classes be like?
I don't think the method really matters since their goals are "to cultivate an attitude that respects tradition and culture, that loves the nation and home country" "The new education law will allow children to acquire a good understanding of their heritage and become intelligent and dignified Japanese", which are nothing new basically though the words are carefully chosen and have been taught and talked about in schools for decades.

The very important fact that often forgotten is that children are vulnerable and susceptible to what they hear and learn, and schools should never be a place for teachers to thought control them.

[Kinsao]

Do you think the English get taught about the bad things their country has done?

I was writing about what I think should be taught, not what is necessarily taught in English schools.

[Mycernius]

Do you think the English get taught about the bad things their country has done?
With modern day PC agendas everywhere, yes they are. The English are becoming an oppressed majority in their own country when it comes to certain points.

[Gentleman10]

I don't think the method really matters since their goals are "to cultivate an attitude that respects tradition and culture, that loves the nation and home country" "The new education law will allow children to acquire a good understanding of their heritage and become intelligent and dignified Japanese", which are nothing new basically though the words are carefully chosen and have been taught and talked about in schools for decades.

Is this a bad thing...? Last time I checked, saying your country's pledge never hurt anyone

[/QUOTE]
The very important fact that often forgotten is that children are vulnerable and susceptible to what they hear and learn, and schools should never be a place for teachers to thought control them.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, does this mean that teachers will be giving a slanted view about Japanese history (ie, Nanjing never happened, Japanese people are supposed to be in power etc?), becuase that be a problem.

[misa.j]

I read between those lines. Loving one's country should be a spontaneous emotion insead of being told to do so.

Hmm, does this mean that teachers will be giving a slanted view about Japanese history (ie, Nanjing never happened, Japanese people are supposed to be in power etc?), becuase that be a problem.
It's hard to say how much power teachers have, but it seems like the state is able to impose what it thinks is a correct attitude for children to have for the nation.

Apparently, it was revealed that the town meetings held by the government for the purpose of hearing opinions from ordinary citizens, instead they planted questioners who praised the government for this change.

[Elizabeth]

Apparently, it was revealed that the town meetings held by the government for the purpose of hearing opinions from ordinary citizens, instead they planted questioners who praised the government for this change.
The number of hoax town meetings related to this bill was very small, maybe 5-15 maximum. The undeniable fact is the platform this agenda is based on couldn't have been clearer during the campaign and still it is the result of a majority consensus, whatever Abe's current popularity.

I do agree, though, ironically enough with the emphasis on parental and home education that could work to balance or even counteract an increasing emphasis on civics education or blatent thought control. :okashii:

[yukio_michael]

During high school, we were made to stand each morning and recite the "Pledge of allegiance."

Many of you are familiar with this, but from wiki:

he Pledge of Allegiance is a promise or oath of allegiance to the United States as represented by its national flag. It is commonly recited in unison at public events, and especially in public school classrooms, where the Pledge is often a morning ritual. In its present form, the words of the Pledge are

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

According to current U.S. custom, as codified by the United States Congress, persons are expected (but not legally required) to recite the Pledge as follows:

by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute.

We had some issues with having being expected to recite this, specifically because of the inclusion of the line, "one nation, under god", which we thought improper in a school setting. Some of us, under no duress, simply chose to sit during the pledge.

I think there is difference between patriotism, and nationalism. One should be proud to be a part of a country from which they were born, regardless of the struggles it may face... I know that it's not currently in vogue to be American, what with the wretched government we have now, but the tide is turning, as it always has, and once again, we may be seen as a charitable and helpful nation, not an ostracizing one full of hubris.

I'll remind people also that almost all countries history books omit facts as they see fit. School has always been a place not just for education, but also, for socialization of young people--- Indoctrinating them into the mores of any particular society.

We have to distinguish between was is simply patriotism, and what is dangerous nationalism... And what do we mean by "dangerous"...?

[Toru Ranryu]

I was writing about what I think should be taught, not what is necessarily taught in English schools.
I understand that, and basically I agree with what you wrote. I just think it's important to take a moment to think about whether this is a uniquely Japanese problem or if other countries have a flawed view of their own history as well. It's ridiculous for a bunch of foreigners to sit here on a message board criticizing Japan without reflecting on how their own country deals with similar issues. "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

And anyway my question was honestly meant. I have no idea what is actually taught in English schools and it would be interesting to know.

[Japan_Observer]

I'll repeat what I said yesterday: the question of whether patriotism is good and appropriate or not is irrelevant.

The education reform bill and the preceding debate were a wasted opportunity, because instead of discussing how to improve how Japanese children are educated in light of a rapidly changing world, the discussion got bogged down in refighting past battles about nationalism.

It will be interesting to see how successful the government is at having its goals for the education system implemented. The divide between policy formulation and policy implementation is fairly basic in political science, in all areas. Those responsible for implementing policy -- i.e., local authorities and teachers -- may have agendas of their own and will have no problem finding ways to get what they want despite the Diet's passage of the legislation.

[craftsman]

The education reform bill and the preceding debate were a wasted opportunity, because instead of discussing how to improve how Japanese children are educated in light of a rapidly changing world, the discussion got bogged down in refighting past battles about nationalism.

You make the presumption that it is in the interests of the Japanese establishment to change the education system in light of a 'rapidly changing world'. Such a change was never on the cards nor is it desired.

You mentioned before when talking about industrial economies that "the goal (of education) has been to produce workers who can be plugged into a large organization and contribute in a relatively static, hierarchical setting" and also that "that won't do anymore." I see the goal as, however, to produce consumers who can be plugged into a corporate economy without the inclination or power to change the profitable status quo. And as long as there is a supremely powerful corporate lobby in Japan which in many respects is indistinguishable from the people and parties in power, on what basis would it be changed? Surely your words are more idealistic than practical.

So it was hardly a wasted opportunity if no real opportunity, only a facade, existed in the first place.

[Japan_Observer]

Such a change was never on the cards nor is it desired.

You're right; it wasn't in the cards. That's the problem. And who doesn't desire it? You? The Japanese public? The government? You'll have to be more specific here.

I see the goal as, however, to produce consumers who can be plugged into a corporate economy without the inclination or power to change the profitable status quo. And as long as there is a supremely powerful corporate lobby in Japan which in many respects is indistinguishable from the people and parties in power, on what basis would it be changed?

What's the basis of your argument? Is this the current goal of the education system? If so, why is every expert on the Japanese economy worried about slack consumer spending undermining Japan's economic recovery.

Winds of change are blowing through Japanese society. It may take time before their impact on the landscape is realized, but they are blowing, and they will leave Japan changed. The question is how, and what the political system can do to direct the change in a more favorable direction.

You need to move past the Karel van Wolferen view of Japanese society. Yes, there are powerful corporations in Japan, and yes, elements of the LDP are in cahoots with them. But the 1990s was a transformative time for Japan, and ruling elites have a harder time making self-interested decisions and getting away ill governance. The people are watching; there is real opposition in government.

So yes, I may be somewhat idealistic, but you may well be overly cynical. Change -- domestic change, international change -- is happening. The world is being reordered, and the question that each nation must answer is whether it will be flattened by change or whether it will ride the waves, so to speak. A country's ability to master change will depend on how it educates its children for the new order, and Abe's education reform will not contribute to that goal, and may even hinder it.

There are plenty of people -- in all parties, many in the rising generation in Japanese politics -- who appreciate how Japan needs to change. They saw the old 1955 system fail and collapse in the early 1990s, and they believe that Japan can do better. So don't be so quick to insist that Japan will never change.

[Mars Man]

Sorry...just wanted to keep these two up front and side by side. (as it may become a topic again soon enough.)

Trying to provide good education, and as practical, honest and fair an education as possible, while attempting to do so through a fortifying of bureaucratic designs, may well be self-defeating in the long run.

[Taiko666]

Do you think the English get taught about the bad things their country has done?

The English have been told about their wrong-doings, real and alleged, incessantly for at least the last 30 years. So much so that, until recently, it's been almost a requirement to apologise when explaining that you're English. This has changed recently, not due to some kind of distasteful nationalism, but a mood of 'hey, enough already!'

And when you say 'English' do you mean 'British' ? From a world political standpoint, 'English' interaction with the world is in fact 'British'. Within Britain though, the English are usually blamed for all Britain's past wrong-doings (again, real and alleged) even though the Scots and the Welsh were vital members, and often leaders, of the 'team.'

So yes, the British (esp the English) are taught about all of past British mistakes, and rightly so, in stark contrast to many Japanese people's knowledge of their own history. Conversely, the British are almost never taught any of the good things. Praising aspects of Britain's past is almost a taboo.

To return to the main point of the thread: one of the things I like about Britain (and esp England) is that flag-flying and the singing of national anthems is almost completely restricted to international sporting events. You'll never see a British flag in a corner of classroom (this is contrast to eg Japan, the USA and France.) The idea of singing the national anthem at a British school is utterly ludicrous.

[Mars Man]

regarding the national athem matter:

When I had first settled down here in '83, they didn't have any national anthem singing in the schools. They did havd the flag out at the graduation and opening ceremonies, but they also had the school flag right there with it.

Then, that changed, and there have been a least two rashes (as far as I know) of ousting teachers from the public school system who had refused to sing or direct the students to sing the national anthem.

I am not against those who wish to sing it, no; I am against those who wish to force those who care not to, or would rather not, sing it, to sing it. I am entrenched in that freedom of choice.

I am for 'the love of ones country' to the same extent and for the same reasons that I am for 'the love of ones own propery'. This does not mean, in my book, to the degree that a absence of love of for another's property follows, because, from ones own property, to ones neighborhood, to ones town/city, to ones prefecture/state/region, to ones country, to, finally, ones planet. If we develop the ability to allow the 'love of ones own country' to extend to the 'love of the international community' in the same manner that the love of ones own property--in neighborhood aggregate--extends to the 'love of neighborhood', we are more likely to be better off in the long run; ALL parties. In this case, I would be for that element being taught in public schools.

Alas, we have a certain human nature to deal with, so, who knows. I am going to keep my eye on this as some information is supposed to come out later this month or next.

[nurizeko]

School would have been just a bit more unbearable if I had to suffer national anthems and flag waving and all that.

Patriotic zeal should be saved for adults to decide when and where and how its appropriate, not forced on Kids by the educational establishment.

[Mars Man]

Yes, Nurizeko san, I fully agree !

[craftsman]

I am for 'the love of ones country' to the same extent and for the same reasons that I am for 'the love of ones own propery'. This does not mean, in my book, to the degree that a absence of love of for another's property follows, because, from ones own property, to ones neighborhood, to ones town/city, to ones prefecture/state/region, to ones country, to, finally, ones planet. If we develop the ability to allow the 'love of ones own country' to extend to the 'love of the international community' in the same manner that the love of ones own property--in neighborhood aggregate--extends to the 'love of neighborhood', we are more likely to be better off in the long run; ALL parties. In this case, I would be for that element being taught in public schools.

I apologise. I tried to read this a few times but kept getting lost in a sea of prepositions and 'ones'. I'd like to understand the meaning a bit better - sorry Mars Man - can I request a bit of elaboration for us simple folk?

Winds of change are blowing through Japanese society. It may take time before their impact on the landscape is realized, but they are blowing, and they will leave Japan changed.

Winds of something else are blowing from what I see and it would appear to be a lot of naive propogandic hot air.

[hideway]

Patriotism was never a good thing. Whereever it is taught.

[Sukotto]

just today i came across a b&w pic of a us flag with these among other
words printed across it.

"the pledge of allegiance is obedience training"


the past 15 or so years i've been learning or studying about this type of thing, **(not to say the means i know what i am talking about, mind you)** but that statement is clearer than i've ever seen it. maybe it's been
the last 6 years that really put it in perspective?


Perhaps worse?
in the States a couple years ago there has been a big hubub about the words "under god" in the pledge of allegiance.
And saying the pledge in schools. Sure kids don't have to say it, but non-conformity isn't always that easy when you are a kid.
I too agree with Nurizeko

[pipokun]

(whatever you believe in) be saved for adults to decide when and where and how its appropriate, not forced on Kids by the educational establishment.

Just fill out the bracket.

[yukio_michael]

School would have been just a bit more unbearable if I had to suffer national anthems and flag waving and all that.

Patriotic zeal should be saved for adults to decide when and where and how its appropriate, not forced on Kids by the educational establishment.School in and of itself has all manner of institutionalized activities that even moreso than nebulous ideas of 'patriotism' encourage orthodoxy and socialization in a group environment.

You pledge to a flag, or you pledge to a fraternity, what matters most in either is the institution of orthodoxy.

[GodEmperorLeto]

People are confusing patriotism with nationalism.

Patriotism is love for one's country, pure and simple. Nationalism is much more politically charged. However, people constantly confuse the two concepts, as can be seen here all over this thread.

Teaching patriotism is never bad. Everyone should be patriotic. If you aren't you do not deserve to be a citizen. If you do not love your country, you have no right to influence it politically or socially--you have effectively renounced your stake in it.

Nevertheless, that does not equate with being nationalistic. And therein lies the problem. In many countries, the liberal trend is to fight patriotism for fear of sliding into nationalism. Indeed, liberalism itself can develop into its own form of nationalism. In nationalist ideologies, the individual's well-being is overridden by the state's. However, with patriotism, the individual is willing to sacrifice his well-being for his country (as opposed to his state).

There are nuances. Once you pull the two concepts apart, you realize that patriotism is healthy for a people. I have no objection to Japanese teaching patriotism. They should. Their children should respect their history and love their country. Patriotism isn't an ideology like nationalism. It is a feeling. And it knows no political party. And it can be a force for excellence. No matter what your country has done, right or wrong, you can always be patriotic. Only nationalism requires blinders to history.

Between you and me, I'd prefer to have a patriot as my leader, rather than a nationalist, or someone who believes in political correctness.

[pipokun]

A new year special interview from left spinning media to young headspin master

http://www.mainichi-msn.co.jp/chihou/kyoto/archive/news/2007/01/01/20070101ddlk26070102000c.html
◇一問一答
−−あなたが尊敬する大人は？
　両親。自分をよく理解してくれる。
−−あなたが一番大切にしているのは？
　友達、仲間。
−−あなたの一番大切な言葉は？
　技の最中に観客が言ってくれる言葉。
−−「愛国心」と聞いて何を連想するか？
　日本の自然。国際的な観光地とかではなく、田んぼの 風景とか。
−−憲法９条をどう思うか？
　必要な憲法だと思う。周りの国に「友好でいたい」と いうことをアピールできる。
−−日本の未来は明るい？　暗い？
　明るい。大会などで世界の国々を見てきたが、日本は 衛生もいいし、料理もおいしい。すごい国だと思う。
−−５年後の自分にエールを。
　ギネスの記録を更新し続けろ！

#1 Who do you respect?
My parents. They understand me well.
#2 Your invalurable thing?
Friends and comrades
#3 Your favorite words?
The words my audience gives me.
#4 What do you associate 'patriotism' with?
Nature in Japan. Not tourist places, but just scenary of rice fields.
#5 What do you think of Article 9 of the constitution?
It's important. We can appeal our friendliness to other countries.
#6 Japan's future, bright or dark?
Bright. I've been to many countries, and I think Japan is a clean country and I love the food. A cool country, I think.
#7 Say somthing to yourself 5 yrs later
Keep breaking the record!

It is hard to find any logic in the quesiton, #4, #5 and others.

Aichi, the headspin guy in youtube
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WwaOiF87tLA

[KirinMan]

Patriotism was never a good thing. Whereever it is taught.


I disagree and would like to counter with this quote from GEL which I think says it very well;

People are confusing patriotism with nationalism.

Patriotism is love for one's country, pure and simple. Nationalism is much more politically charged. However, people constantly confuse the two concepts, as can be seen here all over this thread.

Teaching patriotism is never bad. Everyone should be patriotic. If you aren't you do not deserve to be a citizen. If you do not love your country, you have no right to influence it politically or socially--you have effectively renounced your stake in it.

Nevertheless, that does not equate with being nationalistic. And therein lies the problem. In many countries, the liberal trend is to fight patriotism for fear of sliding into nationalism. Indeed, liberalism itself can develop into its own form of nationalism. In nationalist ideologies, the individual's well-being is overridden by the state's. However, with patriotism, the individual is willing to sacrifice his well-being for his country (as opposed to his state).

There are nuances. Once you pull the two concepts apart, you realize that patriotism is healthy for a people. I have no objection to Japanese teaching patriotism. They should. Their children should respect their history and love their country. Patriotism isn't an ideology like nationalism. It is a feeling. And it knows no political party. And it can be a force for excellence. No matter what your country has done, right or wrong, you can always be patriotic. Only nationalism requires blinders to history.

Between you and me, I'd prefer to have a patriot as my leader, rather than a nationalist, or someone who believes in political correctness.

There is nothing wrong in my opinion with having a love for one's country, I also think that Japanese people really haven't been educated to understand the difference between nationalism and patriotism.

I am a patriot but not a nationalist, I love my country but am not so blind as to not see it's failings amongst it great points. If the two can be separated there is nothing wrong with teaching patriotism.

[CBT1979]

Teaching patriotism is always a difficult task.
Because sometimes it is too sporadically and sometimes it is turning into nationalism.
Finding a well-balanced way to teach patriotism to young people isn't that easy. Some might not be interested in politics and national pride at all, some consider their own country as the only right one and superior to others.
I would say, the result should be, that you love your country and do your best (contribute) for your country, but stay self-critical. That is a healthy way of patriotism.

[CBT1979]

People are confusing patriotism with nationalism.
Patriotism is love for one's country, pure and simple. Nationalism is much more politically charged. However, people constantly confuse the two concepts, as can be seen here all over this thread.
Teaching patriotism is never bad. Everyone should be patriotic. If you aren't you do not deserve to be a citizen. If you do not love your country, you have no right to influence it politically or socially--you have effectively renounced your stake in it.
Nevertheless, that does not equate with being nationalistic. And therein lies the problem. In many countries, the liberal trend is to fight patriotism for fear of sliding into nationalism. Indeed, liberalism itself can develop into its own form of nationalism. In nationalist ideologies, the individual's well-being is overridden by the state's. However, with patriotism, the individual is willing to sacrifice his well-being for his country (as opposed to his state).
There are nuances. Once you pull the two concepts apart, you realize that patriotism is healthy for a people. I have no objection to Japanese teaching patriotism. They should. Their children should respect their history and love their country. Patriotism isn't an ideology like nationalism. It is a feeling. And it knows no political party. And it can be a force for excellence. No matter what your country has done, right or wrong, you can always be patriotic. Only nationalism requires blinders to history.
Between you and me, I'd prefer to have a patriot as my leader, rather than a nationalist, or someone who believes in political correctness.

Very well said! I mean, very detailed and correct definition of Patriotism and Nationalism! :cool:

[Sukotto]

patriotism vs nationalism,
yeah. it depends a lot on what one's definition of patriotism is.
"my country right or wrong" goes almost beyond even nationalism.
jingoism. which includes the ugly scurge of racism: " 'my people' are supremacist to others". that demented thinking can easily grow out of nationalism.

maybe it depends on the teacher,
how patriotism would be taught.
if the teacher is racist, such delusions are more likely to be passed
down to students.

If one loves their country or land & people(friends & family?), however you define country, shouldn't that, as any feeling of love, come naturally from within and not something that can be taught? Is it possible to teach love?

Is patriotism memorizing a national anthem or some oath to a piece
of cloth, especially if one doesn't know the meaning of such words? Liking the official color scheme of the nation's flag or coat of arms?

[Sukotto]

This topic has really got me tied in a knot mentally.

--On the one hand there is the danger of nationalism breeding racism.

--And on the other hand not being pushed around by larger more powerful countries either militarily or economically nationalism could be a good thing.

During the cold war nationalism was aroused to attempt to bring about de-colonization.
Often times what was basically anti-colonialism was labeled communism by the US because nationalists did not believe that merely switching far-off imperial rule with local political managers was all there was to ending colonialism. They also believed that the European power should stop taking their resources and the people of that country should be the primary beneficiaries of them. oooh, so radical.... scary. Maybe from the point of view of the Dutch East Indies Company or the Hudson Bay Company or whatever were the names of the relavent companies that did the wealth extraction in the name of the crown, as corporations were first invented for.

Many countries merely wanted to be members of the non-aligned movement and didn't buy into the 3rd grade level of thinking "you're either with us, or you are with the terro--, er communists".



GodEmperorLeto
i think has it right
"Patriotism is love for one's country, pure and simple."
but i do not know how you could teach that.
And i do not believe you could be punished for not having such love.
What would be the standards, how would one enforce them,
and wouldn't you need some sort of thought police to enforce it?

[hideway]

I disagree and would like to counter with this quote from GEL which I think says it very well;
There is nothing wrong in my opinion with having a love for one's country, I also think that Japanese people really haven't been educated to understand the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
I am a patriot but not a nationalist, I love my country but am not so blind as to not see it's failings amongst it great points. If the two can be separated there is nothing wrong with teaching patriotism.Touching and informing text. Still, I would perfer to live in a world where one could grow free without being brainwashed by either the government or religious organizations.

[KirinMan]

Touching and informing text. Still, I would perfer to live in a world where one could grow free without being brainwashed by either the government or religious organizations.

Ahh but then those in "power" wouldn't be in power any more now would they?

To live or strive for utopia, not a bad idea, but unfortunately not something that I think I will see in my life time, however much I might wish it to be as well.

Heck look at what is happening in Venezuela right now. I wouldn't exactly call what the President there is doing as being an act of a patriot, but that of a nationalist. Yet many there understand and accept what is happening purely because their lives have been made better, right now. If it works for the long run, and doesn't tumble down the road to being a dictatorship will future textbooks then call the man a patriot or a nationalist? I think it also depends on who one is asking the question to as well.

Where would the world be without religion too. I think many people feel the need to want to belong to something, or a part of something in their lives. Religion gives them sense of "belonging" no matter how much "brain-washing" that religion may have or use. The idea of religion does not lend itself to the ideals of freedom of thought.

I also know some very well educated people that are extremely predjudiced, racist and nationalist as well, so it isn't just education that helps to overcome recognizing the differences between nationalism and patriotism. In my opinion it is the "power" that people feel that they have, even if they "know" in their hearts that what they are doing is immoral or unethical that promotes the ideals of "nationalism".

Nationalism breeds greed, greed of something, whether it be of property, money or an adherance to a set of rules and laws that is exclusionary of others. Something that sets, to the believer, them apart or seemingly above others and to me there is more than enough of that in the world right now.

Yet using the definition of nationalism and patriotism that GEL wrote I like to believe myself to be an agnostic, non-practicing patriot.

[pipokun]

There is nothing wrong in my opinion with having a love for one's country, I also think that Japanese people really haven't been educated to understand the difference between nationalism and patriotism.

The terms are English after all, but many Japanese know blind or innocent liberal heads kill people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhboOwV7HGI

[nurizeko]

The thing is you have no choice where you are born, it is decided for you, along with your citizenship.

Patriotism has a time and place, and for the most part, there is no place for it.

I dont need to have a raging hard-on for Scotland to appriciate it, to appriciate the fair laws, to appriciate the economic comfortability, the good climate, I definately dont need patriotism to wish the best for my family and friends and the well-being of my community.


You dont lose your "stake" in the country because you never invested it in the first place, you were born, you grew up, and had been labelled a citizen of that country long before you were able to contemplate citizenship.


I would fight for my country if the need arose, but that was my choice in my own time of my own will.


As I said, patriotism is for adults to decide.

Let the kids learn, and leave it to themselves to descover what they like and dislike about their homeland.

Patriotism has more meanings then flag waving, someone who speak up against unjust laws or government activities can be a patriot, those who protest a percieved wrong-doing can be a patriot.
Those who work towards what they think is for the best of the country can be a patriot, for all Tony Blairs idiocy, I wouldnt say he doesnt care for Britain in some way.

Patriotism means many things, and ussually, what it really means is being a good person and doing what is right, even when the establishment thinks its wrong.

Waving flags about and forcing kids to sing songs about the country isnt patriotism, its merely an empty ritual of shallow symbolism.

I might march under one, but I wouldnt die for a flag.

[Mrjones]

That was very well said.. I fully agree with you nurize neko

[GodEmperorLeto]

The thing is you have no choice where you are born, it is decided for you, along with your citizenship.
People may knock the U.S., but here, your citizenship is a choice, not a birthright. My ancestors are from Italy, Germany, and Lithuania. I've dated girls who's ancestors came here three hundred years ago, a hundred years ago, fifty, and twenty. All of them were Americans.

I dont need to have a raging hard-on for Scotland to appriciate it, to appriciate the fair laws, to appriciate the economic comfortability, the good climate, I definately dont need patriotism to wish the best for my family and friends and the well-being of my community.

If that is how you feel, then you are definitely confusing patriotism with nationalism.


I would fight for my country if the need arose, but that was my choice in my own time of my own will.
And you are implying that the willingness to do so is not patriotism?


As I said, patriotism is for adults to decide.
Children should be taught values, and patriotism is a value. It should be instilled in them, because it is good teaching. If people were patriotic, they'd desire what was best for their society and their country--what is good. Patriotism isn't blind. It is an appreciation for those who have gone before and sacrificed for you to have things you might otherwise not have had. Liking and disliking aspects of your homeland is separate from patriotism.

I might march under one, but I wouldnt die for a flag.
I would, because whether you realize it or not, your flag is your country.

Except for a few semantic points, though, you and I agree a lot about what patriotism is. Nevertheless, I do believe it should be taught, and isn't necessarily just empty ritual. It is part of your culture. A prominent Native American historian once said that a people never dies so long as they still sing their songs, learn their stories and histories, and feels connection with one-another. Patriotism is just that--shared cultural legacies, and a love for those legacies. As an American, I am proud of many historical figures from my past, I know many of our songs by heart, and even enjoy mythical events, such as Washington chopping down the cherry tree (which, yes, never happened).

The lack of patriotism shared between me and my current generation is tangible. You can see it. People are more worried about Gucci and Lost than they are whether-or-not we are doing the right thing in Iraq. And the only reason people in the US want us out isn't because they truly believe it is wrong, it is because they are afraid of getting drafted, or afraid that they'll have to keep paying $50 to fill their SUV.

In centuries past, Americans were willing to sacrifice things in order to achieve something. Now, we aren't. Because patriotism is the antithesis to selfish consumerism. To be a patriot, you have to be selfless.

Nationalism and selfish consumerism, on the other hand, go together. People are more apt to vote for someone who lies about being patriotic than someone who truly is. And nationalist regimes FORCE you to sacrifice. They make it too inconvenient to fight for your freedoms and rights. People in my country would gladly sign away their freedoms if it would guarantee they could still watch American Idol and have sex with their gardener. Why? Because we no longer have any sort of patriotism. There is either apathy, or nationalism.

[Sukotto]

i would not kill for some made up way to divide us that they call a country,
and i sure as hell ain't going to die for one either.

which is the purpose of the ideology of patriotism.

kill to protect power (those that have the ability via force or persuasion, or survival - money for food, to get you to do stuff for them, including kill)

people matter, not these imaginary lines in the sand.
(gosh i wish i knew how to convey that without sounding like i'm drawing a line in the sand)

[nurizeko]

That was very well said.. I fully agree with you nurize neko

Thankyou, Mrjones, much appriciate it. :wave:

[hideway]

Ahh but then those in "power" wouldn't be in power any more now would they?
To live or strive for utopia, not a bad idea, but unfortunately not something that I think I will see in my life time, however much I might wish it to be as well.
Heck look at what is happening in Venezuela right now. I wouldn't exactly call what the President there is doing as being an act of a patriot, but that of a nationalist. Yet many there understand and accept what is happening purely because their lives have been made better, right now. If it works for the long run, and doesn't tumble down the road to being a dictatorship will future textbooks then call the man a patriot or a nationalist? I think it also depends on who one is asking the question to as well.
Where would the world be without religion too. I think many people feel the need to want to belong to something, or a part of something in their lives. Religion gives them sense of "belonging" no matter how much "brain-washing" that religion may have or use. The idea of religion does not lend itself to the ideals of freedom of thought.
I also know some very well educated people that are extremely predjudiced, racist and nationalist as well, so it isn't just education that helps to overcome recognizing the differences between nationalism and patriotism. In my opinion it is the "power" that people feel that they have, even if they "know" in their hearts that what they are doing is immoral or unethical that promotes the ideals of "nationalism".
Nationalism breeds greed, greed of something, whether it be of property, money or an adherance to a set of rules and laws that is exclusionary of others. Something that sets, to the believer, them apart or seemingly above others and to me there is more than enough of that in the world right now.
Yet using the definition of nationalism and patriotism that GEL wrote I like to believe myself to be an agnostic, non-practicing patriot.Now I've no complete idea on what are you talking about now. What does Venezuela have to do with avoiding brainwash of children? And why protecting them from being brainwashed is an utopia at all?

Also I don't belive you ever heard me stating that religion should disapear. All I said is: let people, when they have suficiente maturity, choose by themselfs. Schools should be an institution for teaching and educating our children, and never to make them belive whatever the government nor what a religion wants. If one wants to be patriotic, christian, jew, muslin or whatever, let him be, but by his own choice.

I would, because whether you realize it or not, your flag is your country.Actually a flag it's just what it is, a flag.

[KirinMan]

Now I've no complete idea on what are you talking about now. What does Venezuela have to do with avoiding brainwash of children? And why protecting them from being brainwashed is an utopia at all?


Really, if your not familiar with what is happening there I 'll have to go and find some links for you to read up on the growing "nationalism in Venezuela". Oh that is from the US press, but evidently in the Venezuelan press they are calling it the new "patriotism" in their country.

In many cases the line between nationalism and patriotism is a fine line defined by how the person is viewing it.

Also I don't belive you ever heard me stating that religion should disapear. All I said is: let people, when they have suficiente maturity, choose by themselfs. Schools should be an institution for teaching and educating our children, and never to make them belive whatever the government nor what a religion wants. If one wants to be patriotic, christian, jew, muslin or whatever, let him be, but by his own choice.

THank you for clarifying that because from this statement it is very easy to get the impression to me at least, that you were talking about utopia.

Still, I would perfer to live in a world where one could grow free without being brainwashed by either the government or religious organizations.

Either way you still are talking about utopia from your point of view. If you are not tell me one country in the world where people can grow up in total ignorance or freedom from brainwashing.

Schools should be this or schools should be that....it's still utopia you are talking about, there is no school anywhere that is totally free from bias, as much as you would like it to be or not. It's called the human factor.

Let them choose on their own...mmmm who is going to be the one that influences their decision process? Think about that, somehow, somewhere, someone is going to be a factor in the decision that they make, it is impossible to not think otherwise. Once again utopia.


Actually a flag it's just what it is, a flag.

It's called semantics here, if you really believe that a flag is just a flag, try taking a walk through parts of Baghdad with the flag of the US drapped over your shoulders. I highly doubt you will see the end of that particular street alive, but then again to you a flag is just a flag. Get the point?

[hideway]

Really, if your not familiar with what is happening there I 'll have to go and find some links for you to read up on the growing "nationalism in Venezuela". Oh that is from the US press, but evidently in the Venezuelan press they are calling it the new "patriotism" in their country.
In many cases the line between nationalism and patriotism is a fine line defined by how the person is viewing it. I am aware of what's happening on venezuela, I just don't get it's relevance for any of this discussion subject.

Either way you still are talking about utopia from your point of view. If you are not tell me one country in the world where people can grow up in total ignorance or freedom from brainwashing.
Schools should be this or schools should be that....it's still utopia you are talking about, there is no school anywhere that is totally free from bias, as much as you would like it to be or not. It's called the human factor.
Let them choose on their own...mmmm who is going to be the one that influences their decision process? Think about that, somehow, somewhere, someone is going to be a factor in the decision that they make, it is impossible to not think otherwise. Once again utopia.There is no doubt that one personality is result of both his interaction with other and their influence with him, no discussion there. Still, there is a difference between having a teacher who is patriotic (even if for sometimes he states his own belives on classes), and having a school program with the objective of transforming children into government's puppets.

It's called semantics here, if you really believe that a flag is just a flag, try taking a walk through parts of Baghdad with the flag of the US drapped over your shoulders. I highly doubt you will see the end of that particular street alive, but then again to you a flag is just a flag. Get the point?The point it's always the same. Giving too much importance to, in this case, a piece of tissue, it's wrong. Making others to belive that is worse.

About your example, even if one, as myself, does not consider the flag to be something more than just a flag, it shouldn't mean that I'm retarded and that I don't realize that it may symbolise something more to other people.

[KirinMan]

I am aware of what's happening on venezuela, I just don't get it's relevance for any of this discussion subject.


I use this an example of what can happen, even in todays world, when one person with power can influence and "brainwash" an entire country into believing that what they are learning is patriotic and not nationalist. Hitler did the same during the 1930's in Germany. Too many people in my opinion underestimate the power of Japan and it's history. They may not seem nationalistic now, but the history here suggests something totally different.

To institute "ai kokumin" studies into the Japanese classroom needs to be done with very careful thought to the history of Japan as well. So the Japanese children of today do not repeat the errors of their grandfather's.

There is no doubt that one personality is result of both his interaction with other and their influence with him, no discussion there. Still, there is a difference between having a teacher who is patriotic (even if for sometimes he states his own belives on classes), and having a school program with the objective of transforming children into government's puppets.

No argument from me here, however when you have a society that treats the nail the sticks out with a hammer the government and it's educational polices and directives need to be thoroughly examined by multiple "professionals" and not just instituted by the party currently in power. Which seemingly could possibly happen if Abe has his "way".


The point it's always the same. Giving too much importance to, in this case, a piece of tissue, it's wrong. Making others to belive that is worse.
About your example, even if one, as myself, does not consider the flag to be something more than just a flag, it shouldn't mean that I'm retarded and that I don't realize that it may symbolise something more to other people

Like it or not. The flag is a very powerful symbol of both good and evil to most people throughout the world. There are just too many examples out there that to not accept that fact. A flag while physically is just a piece of cloth brings emotions and feelings that just about no other inanimate object does.

Oh and if it wasnt a flag it would be something else entirely. Throughout thousands of years of human history symbols have been used to identify countries and their people. In my opinion your ideas about this are somewhat naeve in believing it to be otherwise. Likes, dislikes or feelings about the subject aside, the fact is the flag of many countries bring out many strong feelings and emotions among billions of people in the world. That is something that will never change, however much you may hope it to be otherwise.

it shouldn't mean that I'm retarded

Your words not mine, and you are greatly mistaken if you thought that is what I was inferring to.

[hideway]

Like it or not. The flag is a very powerful symbol of both good and evil to most people throughout the world. There are just too many examples out there that to not accept that fact. A flag while physically is just a piece of cloth brings emotions and feelings that just about no other inanimate object does.
Oh and if it wasnt a flag it would be something else entirely. Throughout thousands of years of human history symbols have been used to identify countries and their people. In my opinion your ideas about this are somewhat naeve in believing it to be otherwise. Likes, dislikes or feelings about the subject aside, the fact is the flag of many countries bring out many strong feelings and emotions among billions of people in the world. That is something that will never change, however much you may hope it to be otherwise.What I like or dislike isn't important at all. And I do know that many people are attached to symbols such as flags, religious artifacts or national monuments and that they grant them a degree of importance I don't find... healthy. Still, allowing children to grow without being brainwashed is certainly a good starting point.
Your words not mine, and you are greatly mistaken if you thought that is what I was inferring to.Yes, don't worry. I knew you didn't mean that. I was just making a point.

[KirinMan]

What I like or dislike isn't important at all. And I do know that many people are attached to symbols such as flags, religious artifacts or national monuments and that they grant them a degree of importance I don't find... healthy. Still, allowing children to grow without being brainwashed is certainly a good starting point.


Oh I dont know, I think that your opinions and thoughts on the matter are very important, because someday I think that you, along with anyone and everyone else will come across or have the opportunity to be in a position to influence how someone thinks or feels about a given topic. Even in our discussion here I hope that I have learned something as well.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about your point about children.

Yes, don't worry. I knew you didn't mean that. I was just making a point.

Gotchya' thank you by the way for sharing your ideas and thoughts on this topic.

[Sukotto]

I would avoid the mainstream US press on anything, especially international news (it has always been poor in this respect. ask anyone who has spent a decent time abroad), including stuff the Bush administration criticizes, which includes Venezuela.

There's a lot of disinformation out there about what is going on in that country.

The Venezuelan Revolution: 100 Questions-100 Answers (http://www.amazon.com/Venezuelan-Revolution-100-Questions-100-Answers/dp/1560257733)
Is one source you can get via inter-library loan.

I believe Venezuela is an example of successfully standing up to the US, so far (http://www.amazon.com/Chavez-Code-Cracking-Intervention-Venezuela/dp/1567513484). The US never likes this and labels anything remotely close using a countries resources for the population instead of primarily export as commie.
The 2nd link above is a book about US involvement in the attempted coup a couple years back, including declassified documents as sources.


'Third world' nationalism - bad.
US nationalism - good.
Japanese nationalism - as long as it doesn't bother Uncle Scam.

[KirinMan]

I believe Venezuela is an example of successfully standing up to the US, so far. The US never likes this and labels anything remotely close using a countries resources for the population instead of primarily export as commie.


Like I wrote depending on the perspective of the viewer nationalism and patriotism are two different sides of the same sheet of paper.

It isnt just the Bush administration either that is guilty of expounding it's version of nationalism it goes back from Clinton and damn near every other US Administration as well It's just easier to remember recent history that's all.

Japan does not need to aggravate the situation with it's neighbors any more and would be better off in teaching it's students the place it's country has in the world along with a healthy dose of honesty in regards to it's history, both good and bad, political agenda aside as well.

[Mars Man]

Gentlemen, gentlemen...as it does appear that most of us now participating in this thread are of the sort, I would like to first make appeal to the matter of keeping slightly tighter bounds on the thread topic, please.
Next, I would like to suggest that it would probably be found that there is no need or great benefit in resigning ourselves to emotionally pointed arguments or exchanges on this topic either. We may all adhere to our variances of understandings of those concerns which have room for variance--and that would surely include most of the immediate subjec matter, indeed.


As for my way of taking things, I have vouched for 'love of country' (#27) yet would never concede to that phrase's being so equal with the more commonly, pragmatically understanding involved with the term 'patriotism'.
Especially is that so in regards to how such a concept, here in Japan, could (and I'm speaking of that latter term) breath life into a form of nationalized thought over and against other nations. I see it as something that would not be healthy.


Having a 'love for ones on country', however, (again, as I see it) does not stem from any political format nor even any idea of 'established nation'. (It is high time that we homo sapiens pushed our level of consciousness to higher levels of acceptance, erasing the mental lines that have always partitioned us off from one another.) In Japan, as we know it, the tendency to adhere, in various ways to various degrees, to in-group bonding is strong--perhaps more so than many other national groups-- and that may well be the root of such concerns regarding even 'patriotism'. (which by pragmatic definition always regresses to a matter of fighting)


While those who are philosophically inclined can finely nuance the meanings of 'patriotism' and 'nationalism', in the more pragmatic reality, the overlap is far too great to be ignored--and in my opinion, is not to be. I am of the opinion that it would be wrong to incourage children towards anything other than developing a love for what is their own, and then work on extending that to a love for what is someone else's--neither tainted with 'patriotism' nor 'nationalism.

I hope the volleying will at least be with less emotional lean in it. :-)

[KirinMan]

Mars Man thank you for your input here. It was thoughtful to say the least.

I have many personal concerns about the subject itself, I have Japanese children and am concerned about the subject matter that they are being taught in their classrooms. Fortunately I am able to give them a broader view of how the rest of the world views Japan and its history so I make it an important part of my day to understand and help form my childrens thoughts and views about the country that they are now living in.

There have been a number of occasions that they have come home and told me stories about how their teachers glossed over topics such as Pearl Harbor and made the US out to be the instigator of the events that lead up to WWII. There are a number of other examples I could share as well. They were confused as to whom they should believe. The discussion we had was informative for both myself and them as well. Fortunately I was able to instill upon them that they need to learn to think for themselves and to work hard at making a decision based not on the facts of one side of a story but try to look at things from many different angles, even if you do not like the direction that the information takes you in regards to your country or heritage.

Now back to the topic at hand. Making the teachers stand for the national anthem, or face the threat of being fired. Is a type of nationalism not patriotism however much the two may or may not overlap. Having a Gov of a major metropolitan area say things that the "foreigners" that are living in Japan are the reasons that crime is on the rise. Having a PTA President tell an Amer-Asian child that if they hadn't been born then there wouldn't be any Amer-Asian problem are some of the growing roots of nationalism here in Japan. From the highest levels of government to the local level as well.

To allow these thoughts or thought patterns to continue is in my opinion wrong. That is why I am concerned about the process in which Japan will take in instituting this "pride in country" education. Many people need to voice their opinions and let their leaders know that these types of examples like I have given among a huge list of many more will not be tolerated.

The problem as I see it though is that inside many peoples hearts they actually believe what they are hearing, mostly because they have not been taught to think for themselves.

Hence the concern about making sure the line between nationalism and patriotism are clearly defined before they are taught in schools here.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Now back to the topic at hand. Making the teachers stand for the national anthem, or face the threat of being fired. Is a type of nationalism not patriotism however much the two may or may not overlap. Having a Gov of a major metropolitan area say things that the "foreigners" that are living in Japan are the reasons that crime is on the rise. Having a PTA President tell an Amer-Asian child that if they hadn't been born then there wouldn't be any Amer-Asian problem are some of the growing roots of nationalism here in Japan. From the highest levels of government to the local level as well.

Hello OBEIKA,
I am not living in Japan but in the Netherlands. Exactly what you just described happens also in my country. Muslims are terrorists or have other unpleasant names. I guess that people in general are a little scared for different cultures living in "their" country. People may say that they don't like foreigners, you may of course deep in your heart not trust those strangers. Maybe it is quite natural?

But never ever should a member of our governments offend or hurt the feelings of the foreigners living in their countries. That is below level.
Of course I understand your feelings and it is easy for me to talk because I live in Europe. Asians see things different from Europeans, I know because I grew up in the Far East, in Indonesia.

Long before the Japanese occupation of Indonesia in 1942, Japanese kids went to Japanese schools. The Japanese living in Indonesia very seldom contacted the Dutch. Yet there are thousands of Eurasians coming from Europeans (mostly Dutch) who lived and worked in Indonesia.
Maybe the Japanese have really trouble to like foreigners. During WWII I learned that they can even hate foreigners.

[KirinMan]

Elizabeth thank you for your post, I was unaware that this was happening in Europe as well.

It's kind of scary that history could repeat itself. That is what I think I am mostly afraid of, not so much for myself but for my children.

[Mars Man]

Thanks for that futher explanation Obeika san. I think I fully understand your points made, yet still deem that both 'patriotism' and 'nationalism' are outdated belief-systems of a sort. The religiousity that is hardwired into the human brain can surely be use in a much broader sense. For that reason, I have taught my children, who have also grown up here in Japan, to be world citizens, and have constantly focused on that, so that there has been very little need to chose between the two states that could be represented by the little lady (Japanese national) and myself (American national).

I fully agree with you on the point of critical thinking; and have as well as am making every effort to instil a feel for critical thinking in my three sons. It is something that the education system at the lower levels too greatly lacks. I teach them to love the world, free from the two terms which have been discussed, and thus have no need for worrying, really, about the degrees which they could be differentiated. (I would argue, that without the concept of nation--the underlying basis of 'nationalism' in the pragmatic realm--we could not have a patriot--the underlying element of 'patriotism'--as a good study of the terms clearly enough leads to.

Let's hope that our efforts to be more open-minded and internationally orientated, as I feel we both lean towards, lead to some results through our children's grandchildren
!! MM

Nice to see you posting here Elizabeth !! Thanks for sharing !!

[Iron Chef]

Actually a flag it's just what it is, a flag.

Flags can also be strong iconic symbols for some. Try walking through downtown Atlanta with a Confederate flag draped around your shoulders and see what kind of reactions you elicit. 8-p

[nurizeko]

But its empty symbolism, Chef.

Patriotism is caring about your country, attaching emotions to a peice of coloured fabric is your own choice.

For example, I know the Scottish Salire represents my country, just as my school uniform had the school crest, or my previous jobs had the employee badge with the company logo, but it isnt my country.

No-one should be demonized for "disrespecting" the flag, because its merely a peice of fabric, a logo, a symbol of a nation.

No-one should be called un-patriotic for not saluting a flag, or singing an anthem to it.

No-one should lose their job because they dont want to do the above.

[Sukotto]

I appologize if my posts seem to be heated.
I don't necessarily intend them to be.
If there's one thing I can't stand is "The US is the greatest country" or even "goodest" that US politicians say, hint at, or actually believe (not just Bush).
It is labeled as unPatriotic in some corners to question this non-sense. Even labeled by some as "America-bashing" or "hating". How rediculous. Perhaps worse, people that believe such crap, including some people supposedly close to me. Maybe the worst comes only from bigots like AM radio personality Rush Limbaugh and I shouldn't worry? I know most people that frequent jref don't ascribe to such opinions. The area that I live in is probably the most conservative in my state (but not country, thank gawd), so I appologize if some of this comes out here.


Maybe some of the nationalism and jingoism has died down in the last year and a half in the US, but it is still present and much present even before 2001. "They" used it to start wars of aggression and continue an illegal occupation. What we fear what might happen in Japan or Europe is going on with the US. People dissappeared without the human right to a trial? Luckily some courts in Europe are attempting to bring CIA persons to justice for those extra-judicial secret renditions. It's a disgusting. Brings to mind other stuff I've barely started to learn about: the dirty wars throughout Latin America that spawned groups such as Mothers of the Dissappeared in Argentina (that the US also had a dirty hand in). Attempts to conquer another country? Attempts to cover it up as a mere mistake or we have to "pay for what we broke". Yeah, pay in $$ big time, just get the heck out, the US has zero credibility in Iraq and probably any where else it seeks to initiate anything internationally for maybe decades to come.


Anyway,
thanks for all your posts everybody.
They slightly put my mind at ease with this sort of stuff.

[Sukotto]

Maybe nationalism is not so bad?
but when mixed with religion, as in Imperial Japan, and Nazi Germany,
it can be disasterous.


In American Fascists (http://www.amazon.com/American-Fascists-Christian-Right-America/dp/0743284437/ref=pd_sim_b_3/002-6326404-5303230), Chris Hedges, veteran journalist and author of the National Book Award finalist War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning, challenges the Christian Right's religious legitimacy and argues that at its core it is a mass movement fueled by unbridled nationalism and a hatred for the open society.

[KirinMan]

Thanks for that futher explanation Obeika san. I think I fully understand your points made, yet still deem that both 'patriotism' and 'nationalism' are outdated belief-systems of a sort. The religiousity that is hardwired into the human brain can surely be use in a much broader sense. For that reason, I have taught my children, who have also grown up here in Japan, to be world citizens, and have constantly focused on that, so that there has been very little need to chose between the two states that could be represented by the little lady (Japanese national) and myself (American national).

I think that our children are fortunate to be born to parents of two different nations and cultures. They are exposed to much more culturally and hopefully will have more open minds as they grow up and learn to think for themselves.

If the terms "nationalism" and "patriotism" are outdated what would you use in their place? I realize that they are both fundamentally intertwined yet personally I still see a place for their use. I guess I was raised or should I say educated to understand the differences between the two, without the political baggage attached either.

I also think that the word "patriot" is mostly used by American's to describe themselves. Do you or anyone else here for that matter know if the word patriot is used in the same or similar context in other English speaking countries?

In Japanese the word "patriot" means 救国 ,きゅうこく, or 国士, こくし, or 愛国の志士, あいこくのしし and the word nationalism means 民族主義, みんぞくしゅぎ or 愛国主義 あいこくしゅぎ. All of which bring up thoughts and memories of WWII, uyoku etc etc. So I guess even here in Japan the words may be outdated as well.

I asked a friend of mine what was the first thing that came to his mind when he heard these words and he told me "war".

He is a social studies teacher and is also concerned himself about how the current Japanese administration plans to institute this subject into the Japanese curriculum. He mentioned that because of WWII that many Japanese still have feelings of shame and guilt and when the current government brings up this topic they cringe at the thought of children being taught the same things that caused the war in the first place.

They want to see the kids being taught to love their fellow man and their country next.

[Mars Man]

Yes, Obeika san, I'm right there with you on the point about our children, and am sure there are some number of couples of mixed national background and even some of pure Japanese background that work at instilling such internationally healthy attitudes in their children.


If the terms "nationalism" and "patriotism" are outdated what would you use in their place?

Not wanting to stay off the immediate topic too much, I'd simply say that in my seeing the terms as linguistic symbols of belief-system of sorts, both of which are defineable in historical terms of an in-group in opposition to an out-group, I simply don't use any single term. Paraphrases of the concept which I hold--regardless of how idealistic it may well be--seem to work well enough. (every year I give a talk on Internationalism here, and as far as I can tell, the explanation works for the audience as well)


Do you or anyone else here for that matter know if the word patriot is used in the same or similar context in other English speaking countries?

I believe I do recall seeing that it is more of an 'American' usage, stemming from, of course, the Revolutionary War--there is the 'Patriot's Day' in a couple of New England states. Otherwise, I'm not sure.


Thanks for the Japanese explanation there, I hadn't checked out the possible wordings, but was fairly satisfied with the wording chosen. (which can be seen on the other thread on this subject) I think 愛国心　(aikokushin; quite directly translated [love for country heart]) is a great improvement on those general terms compariable to the English 'patriot (〜ism)' and 'national (〜ism)'.

Another thing that had caught my eye (as in the other thread) was the matter of trying to instil religious sentiment--or however the real thing might turn out.

Thanks for you comments and information and thoughts there. Let's just keep our fingers crossed yet.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hi Obeika and Mars Man,

I have two adopted children from India, a son and a daughter. They are even more Dutch than I am, they have grown up in Holland. My son is an illustrator and computer expert, my daughter is a lawyer. Their skin is different from the Dutch of course but that is all.
And I still have a bit of an Indonesian mentality in me although I am snow white.
I am still very grateful that my father brought me to Indonesia when I was 1½ year young so that I could grow up overthere.

I believe that it is very good to live in other countries, learn about other cultures.
It has learnt me that bad countries don't exist, only bad governments, and thank goodness there are real fine people in every country in this world.
I am a proud inhabitant of our beautiful world.

[pipokun]

There have been a number of occasions that they have come home and told me stories about how their teachers glossed over topics such as Pearl Harbor and made the US out to be the instigator of the events that lead up to WWII. There are a number of other examples I could share as well.
Glossing over the WWII? Where? In Okinawa?
I am not from Okinawa or I am not student now, but my story was quite different one.
Go ahead, please.

[KirinMan]

Glossing over the WWII? Where? In Okinawa?
I am not from Okinawa or I am not student now, but my story was quite different one.
Go ahead, please.
Ok so your story was quite different, how so?

Go ahead, please.

Sarcasm aside here, if you would like people to share more I for one would think that after everything I have written here on this thread, particularly the concerns I have about the topic itself, I would hope to expect that someone who jumps in, in the middle of it, would share some information about what they are talking about before making a post like this one, wouldn't you agree?

Edited to apologize for the comment about jumping in the middle of the thread, I went back and reviewed the thread and see that you have made a few other posts here, however I still would like to ask you to elaborate more.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hello pipokun,

I bet that you are still a very young man. I guess that you are from Tokyo?
I sincerely hope to read your story very soon. I have always realized that there are thousands of sights and outlooks by any story in this world.

Gloss over WWII, no please, that was a nightmare for all of us who lived is those days, in Europe, in America and in Asia.
Governments declared wars, young men were killed, millions of women and children got killed, two bombs fell on Japan, Tokyo was bombed by fire bombs, I vited Nagasaki. I have seen plces in Germany right after WWII.
When you have my age pipokun you know that World War Two was too horrible for words.

I always tell young people (where ever they live) let this never happen again.
The world is getting too small for patriotism. Young Africans are coming to Europe in order to find a better life. At least that's what they hope to find.

One of the most beautiful years were just after WW2, I was 18 years old and believed in peace for all people in this world. But also today I know that good people always win by thinking positively and trying not to be an egoist.

So please tell us your side of the story, it is good to speak things out instead of keeping hurt or angry feelings inside.

[KirinMan]

Off topic here....sorry folks, from my point of view I felt moved to include the following comment.

Elizabeth you are a very gentle, thoughtful, considerate human being. I must say that I wish I had your tolerance, understanding and thoughtfulness. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insights.

I for one, in the short time that I have been posting here have found myself looking forward to your comments and thoughts.

You are similar in age to my mother, alive and well at 86 soon to be 87 on February 5th. I wish that she had the ability to post here as well.

No insult intended here, you must be the Grand Madame of this message board. Thank you.

Back on topic here......

Mars Man I like the word Internationalism because it describes in a healthy unbiased manner the way all countries governments should strive to attain. And like Elizabeth said, and to which I agree, there are no bad countries in the world only bad governments.

I like to tell my children that in all the places I have been on this earth the people, the average everyday people, outside of language differences and some cultural differences are pretty much the same. We all just want to have a better, safer, life for our children.

I've got my fingers crossed too. Thank you.

[pipokun]

It is simple that peace is the most important thing and Japan should never repeat the past.
A teacher used a book, Kike Wadatsumi no Koe, for our history lesson.
It seems there is an English translation, Listen to the Voices from the Sea, and I highly recommend you should read it, esp., for young students.
At a school meeting, we watched a documentary film about Hiroshima & Nagasaki. That was not to be victimized too much, but to teach the victim in the war is not soldier, but ordinary people after all.
Of course, the tragedies of Okinawa was also the one.

It all depend upon your political stance, which, do you think, was the main factor that Japan does not start any war for 60 years, Japanese constitution, the US force, Cold War, Japanese effort for peace or else.
Just count how many Self Defence Force members killed or were killed.

[KirinMan]

It is simple that peace is the most important thing and Japan should never repeat the past.

I agree wholeheartedly and I hope that everyone else agrees with us here as well.

A teacher used a book, Kike Wadatsumi no Koe, for our history lesson.
It seems there is an English translation, Listen to the Voices from the Sea, and I highly recommend you should read it, esp., for young students.
At a school meeting, we watched a documentary film about Hiroshima & Nagasaki. That was not to be victimized too much, but to teach the victim in the war is not soldier, but ordinary people after all.
Of course, the tragedies of Okinawa was also the one.

I'm sorry I have never heard of that book, however here in Okinawa there is a period of study called "Heiwa-gakkshu" (Peace Studies) that is in every elementary school that I know of.
However that doesn't stop the teachers from teaching their position of how the war started in the first place. There are teachers that "blame" the US for the destruction that took place in Japan, conveniently overlooking the destruction, pain, and suffering that countless numbers of people suffered at the hands of the Japanese Imperial Army and Navy.

I have personally heard a teacher say the following; (I'm paraphrasing here because the conversation was in Japanese.)

There is just too much history to cover about Japan that we can not waste time talking about the "causes" of WWII. I want to spend more time covering the shogunate era and before. In nearly 5000 years of history the period leading up to and after WWII is just a drop in the bucket and not really worth spending a lot of time on.

It all depend upon your political stance, which, do you think, was the main factor that Japan does not start any war for 60 years, Japanese constitution, the US force, Cold War, Japanese effort for peace or else.
Just count how many Self Defence Force members killed or were killed.[/

Well outside of training accidents and natural deaths, zero self-defence forces have died in the service of Japan. And even those can not be interred in Yasukuni Shrine because they are not recognized as being as members of the Japanese military that died in the service of their country.

That is another topic however, just answering your comment/question here that's all.

What happened after the war has no bearing on the topic at hand, without the assistance of the US Japan would not be in the position it is in today. And that is a fact.

[pipokun]

Obeika, is it possible for you to discuss this in Nihongo forum here?
Or is it possible for your kids to share their stories in the school?

I know I will be ashamed of my English to see their English, hopefully they will write them in the Nihongo forum, but I think it is a good chance for everyone here to know what is happening at a school in Okinawa now.

[Mars Man]

Elizabeth, thank you for that well put piece of sentiment and heart-felt instruction. I take heed.

Obeika, I'll keep my fingers crossed too, and when the next piece of information comes up, I'll post it, or, if some one posts it before me, will voice my way of seeing it, or whatever.

It's good to hear from you pipokun; thanks for sharing.

Yes, much has happened in the world...perhaps far more in the last 100 years alone--in a sense--than in the 1000 years before that. (taking into consideration knowledge growth and breath.) I think it may be good to open another thread on that matter regarding the various teaching methods or whatever, and try to leave this one more so for that law change that is to be coming up soon. MM

[caster51]

Japan to teach patriotism to children

to teach a patriotism is to teach this japan's shape.

why does Today's japan exist?

I think the morality make a country strong.

what is morality in japan?

that is,
http://www.chukai.ne.jp/~masago/kyouiku.html

[Sukotto]

Since we were on the topic of patriotism,
I came across this "patriotic american" "test".
At first I thougt it was going to be the making of
some flag waving jingoist, but it was not.
It is more about the concept of patriotism.
I got something like 73%, 6%, 60%, 100%

The first question reads as follows:

1.Are you a citizen of the United States of America?
(If you are not and this affects your ability to answer subsequent questions, answer as you would if you *were* a citizen.)
Yes
No

http://www.okcupid.com/tests/take?testid=10603689462944369577

[Mars Man]

to teach a patriotism is to teach this japan's shape.


Hello there caster51 san. If you don't mind, could you elaborate on your concept here. Thanks. MM

[caster51]

Hello there caster51 san. If you don't mind, could you elaborate on your concept here. Thanks. MM
Japanese patriotism is the people value the society that does happily by cooperating.
that is, there is no incividual without community in japan
The patriotism of Japan is to strengthen the unity of the Japanese.
The Japanese is not competing with other countries.
That is, the enemy is not needed.
Why is Japanese's crime a little though it is increasing:relief:
(The crime increased because morality decreases.)

What is the mainspring of Japan?
What should Japan value?
A competing principle of global standard has a lot of evils.
This might destroy the society by other country's value ,Competition and individualism.
However, the Japanese should also go up on the same ring.
Patriotism that maintains the shape of Japan where they do not collapse is
necessary.
.

[pipokun]

The next step after reading the book, Listen to the Voices from the Sea, would be to think how the book was politicised in Japan.

*snip*
Sukotto, this may be more interesting, but off-topic here.
Questions and Answers for New Pilot Naturalization Test (http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=dcf5e1df53b2f010VgnVCM1000000ecd190aRCR D)

[pipokun]

A teacher abondoned appealing higher court
A teacher filed a libel suit against the paper company, sankei, abondoned appealing the court ruling
http://www.iza.ne.jp/news/newsarticle/event/trial/37483/

The cause of the lawsuit was...
A teacher in Tokyo gave her students a special lesson, debate on the US base in Okinawa.
In response to a criticism from a parent saying it was too one-sided anti-US propaganda, the teacher give another paper to her students, "LOL, the mother who wants to involve in her educaiton", and "She is just arrogrant".
http://nippon.zaidan.info/seikabutsu/2002/01254/contents/537.htm
After the paper criticized her, she filed a libel suit.

I want to believe not all unionized teachers are loud speakers witout ears, but this is one reason why it soulds a bit different when I meet someone claiming glossing-over-history teachers in Japan.
It was sad to hear that the kid had to transfer schools after the case.

[Mars Man]

Thanks for your answer and futher explanation caster51 san. While I will admit that if we were to try to go deeper into this matter, it would really need another thread, I will state for now that the idea (as far as I can understand ) which you have presented is pragmatically the same as that used by other nationalities--and is one which would ought to be obsolete in my opinion.

We humans don't need division any more. We need to relinquish to a greater level of understanding for the betterment of the future state of earth affairs. And I have publically stated before Japanese audiences (as I had mentioned before about my talks on Internationalism) my case along with the fact that I would not foresee any such thing happening in the next 500 or so years even. The progress from those who left their footprints in Africa some 1.5～3 million years ago, to us today, is, unfortunately not so great in too many ways.

Maybe we should consider a totally different thread for this. ANYWAY, thanks caster51 and pipokun, for sharing your thoughts and experiences here.

[KirinMan]

Maybe we should consider a totally different thread for this. ANYWAY, thanks caster51 and pipokun, for sharing your thoughts and experiences here.

I agree, this thread has bounced around a number of different topics, however a topic such as this one lends itself to expanding to cover a number of different issues all at the same time so I wonder a bit how, with even splitting it off or starting a new thread how the same thing could be avoided from happening.

@pipokun, you said you would like me to post more information about what I was talking about in the Japanese forum right? Is there any thread that covers this topic on the Japanese forum?

[pipokun]

...
@pipokun, you said you would like me to post more information about what I was talking about in the Japanese forum right? Is there any thread that covers this topic on the Japanese forum?
No, here.
It is interesting to know what is happening in Okinawa now.
【愛国心?】日本語でちょっと堅い話【歴史を歪曲?】 (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=432909#post432909)

[bexchurnside]

I don't know what to say except to remind the people that rhetoric like this, of indoctrinating a love of "beautiful Japan" by recreating a "mythical shining country on a hill" etc, were lines he used countless times during the campaign.
Along with promising to continue the visits to Yasukuni, to restore a strong and vital defense force among other Koizumi-era "reforms."
Japanese politicians, generally speaking, don't mind showing their contempt for citizens who continue to elect them without serious and due consideration. With unending scandals and corruption cases my opinion sorry to say usually isn't a lot higher. :souka:

Yes, so if I have children with my Japanese Canadian boyfriend, I guess I will be schooling them in Canada. Racism is taught in Japan, and the 集産主義的　文化 and the 仲間外れthat socialzes them to practice 苛め is detrimental to many of the indigo and crystal children. The beautiful crystal children's hearts will get squashed in this, and this is awful!

[caster51]

korean patriotism to children
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8reoAO4K_8
Japanese patriotism education is .....what?

It is a patriotism education in korea more than Japan of World War II.
However, I think Patriotism like South Korea is not necessary for Japan.

[Glenski]

The key, I think, is what they will include in their next revision of the history books. They've caught enough flak about that to know better, but they don't.

[gaijinalways]

Caster, you have to consider that education in Japan is heavily influenced by politicians who are not interesed in getting anyone to try and objectively look at issues in Japan remotely related with discrimination.　So basically teaching patriotism is just another form of teaching 'us and them'! Patriotism shouldn't have to be taught, cultural values are passed on by ones' elders, including teachers. Government propaganda on the other hand....

[Kirie_Maiden]

I agree with gaijinalways. Patriotism should not be taught. It should all be about personal opinion. Either you agree with the decisions of your country or you don't. You can't be taught to agree with your country and love it no matter what.

[KirinMan]

Caster, you have to consider that education in Japan is heavily influenced by politicians who are not interesed in getting anyone to try and objectively look at issues in Japan remotely related with discrimination.　So basically teaching patriotism is just another form of teaching 'us and them'! Patriotism shouldn't have to be taught, cultural values are passed on by ones' elders, including teachers. Government propaganda on the other hand....

That's a fact! It's bad enough when teachers lost their jobs because they refused to stand during the playing of the National Anthem. That is pure politics as well.

That was in my opinion the first step in "teaching" patriotism here in Japan, force fed. In that case I felt as if it was "nationalism" not "patriotism", taking away peoples livelihoods just to make a point.

[pipokun]

That's true. It is just politics, but the teacher and her supporters who lost the case behave like a tragic heroin(e).

[KirinMan]

That's true. It is just politics, but the teacher and her supporters who lost the case behave like a tragic heroin(e).

They have to, othewise who else is going to hire them. Seriously through, I know quite a few teachers that sympathized and agreed with them but only to the point of talking about it. It's a cultural thing.

[caster51]

Who is excessively reacting about patriotism that is , "Love the country"?
Why do they deny " LOVE the country"?
A lot of people feel various ....
Because how to receive it is only a concept of becoming various..
I think it is necessary to educate "Patriotism" neatly.
To begin with, I think that to love country is not caused spontaneously.
to not understand is usual if it doesn't learn it
Holding in high esteem is not caused in it if it doesn't learn it.
....even to parents.
The existence called a country cannot be touched and seen.
It is rare to notice it in japan .
However,
if you do not know what your belonging is and where you come from, you could not understand yourself
I look for real parents if I know that, in fact, oneself was an adopted child even if you are brought up without inconvenience
if you hate where you come from and where you belong to, you would hate youself finaly.
I think that it is one of the moral(types of virtue ) that the Japanese should have it naturally
If I do not learn its moral(types ofvirtue ) , I might not be able to acquire
what is the best patriotism ?
a teacher must teach it.
if they can not , pleses quit a teacher

[Gentleman10]

korean patriotism to children
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8reoAO4K_8
Japanese patriotism education is .....what?
It is a patriotism education in korea more than Japan of World War II.
However, I think Patriotism like South Korea is not necessary for Japan.

... lol way to change topics, this seems a little irrelevant to me how Jimmy across the street does things if we're talking about Japan.. :blush:

[KirinMan]

... lol way to change topics, this seems a little irrelevant to me how Jimmy across the street does things if we're talking about Japan.. :blush:

He's got a real good habit of doing that on any number of subjects that get people riled up. :-)

He is by far a pro-Japan Japanese person and anti-anything Japan that pop's up here he will flood contradictory links and ultra-rightist Japanese propaganda information to misdirect the conversation. He is a pro at that.

If you take some of his posts tongue in cheek you might find that some of them are rather humours in a perverted sort of way. :-)

[Gentleman10]

He's got a real good habit of doing that on any number of subjects that get people riled up. :-)
He is by far a pro-Japan Japanese person and anti-anything Japan that pop's up here he will flood contradictory links and ultra-rightist Japanese propaganda information to misdirect the conversation. He is a pro at that.
If you take some of his posts tongue in cheek you might find that some of them are rather humours in a perverted sort of way. :-)
That may be true, but at least he's not ridiculing others about it. He's posting his opinions, I'm posting mine, and as long as we respectfully exchange ideas, cool beans.
If I were to respect anyone's opinons, it would be for someone who presents their opinions without finding a way to start personally attacking others. I'd appreciate it if you please take my advice to heart.

[KirinMan]

That may be true, but at least he's not ridiculing others about it. He's posting his opinions, I'm posting mine, and as long as we respectfully exchange ideas, cool beans.
If I were to respect anyone's opinons, it would be for someone who presents their opinions without finding a way to start personally attacking others. I'd appreciate it if you please take my advice to heart.


Wow thanks for sharing your thoughts here, :cheer: but I will be passing on your "advice". :smoke: I have my reasons for posting what I do and how I do it, it is your choice of course to read my posts or not, that's my heartfelt unsolicited advice to you.:snore:

[Mr Man]

I can't help wondering how much of this "patriotism" and "beautiful Japan" is just candy coated xenophobia. It seems a little ridiculous/dangerous to be "teaching" love of ones country as part of the school curriculum, as if the subtleties of national merit would be missed if not clearly pointed out and memorised by rote. At best they can present examples of what they feel makes this country worth being proud of, and let the kids decide for themselves. But having said that, I am totally sceptical that they will do anything beyond presenting a very one sided, nationalist image, much like their presentation of whitewashed history. I for one don't believe that a right wing government is even remotely capable of anything other than propaganda and forced conformity! The right to decide whether or not to sing the national anthem without the threat of punishment extended to all citizens, which is to say, putting trust in the people to think and make their own judgements, is to me, true cause for pride. A government that feels a need to force conformity to a patriotic ideology, is not capable of even understanding what true patriotism is, let alone educating others about it.

[diceke]

I know one Japanese kid who blew his nose with the "stars and stripes" handkerchief. An American teacher was shocked in utter surprise. National flags do not convey anything to them. It's all about being fashionable and cool.:bluush:

[pipokun]

It is quite rare that Japanese blow one's nose with handkerchiefs.
Get free tissues.

[KirinMan]

It is quite rare that Japanese blow one's nose with handkerchiefs.
Get free tissues.

:giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :lol: :lol: :lol: now aint that a fact!

[diceke]

It is quite rare that Japanese blow one's nose with handkerchiefs.
Get free tissues.
Possibly he picked up the habit from non-Japanese people. (Free tissues? Free distribution is not that common outside of Japan.)

The point is that maybe the Japanese kids in general are not taught well about the significance of national flags. Yeah, the US sucks, but even the stars and stripes deserves some respect. Some of these kids just like the image of foreign countries. That's it.

[pipokun]

日中関係がまだ不正常だった1958年5月に、長崎市で開� ﾃされた切手展覧会の会場に掲揚されていた中華人民共� a国の五星紅旗を男性が引きずり下ろし侮辱した行為。
「ドーハの悲劇」の際に、日本のサポーターが駐日イラク大使館の国旗を引き降ろし持ち去った行為 が該当する（イラク公館側は“日本人の愛国心の表れ” として事件にしなかった）。
wikipedia (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%96%E5%9B%BD%E5%9B%BD%E7%AB%A0%E6%90%8D%E5%A 3%8A%E7%BD%AA)

Crimes related to foreign flags in Japan
1. In 1958 when Japan recognized Taiwan as the only country in China, a guy pulled down the flag of PRC.
2. In 1993, a crazy soccer freek stole the Iraq flag from the Iraqi embassy in Japan after the Agony of Doha. The embassy then generously forgave the crime.

I've never heard of any 2ch-er who burned Korean or Chinese flags in response to their usual ceremony in Korea or China.

[名無し]

Crimes related to foreign flags in Japan
1. In 1958 when Japan recognized Taiwan as the only country in China, a guy pulled down the flag of PRC.
2. In 1993, a crazy soccer freek stole the Iraq flag from the Iraqi embassy in Japan after the Agony of Doha. The embassy then generously forgave the crime.Which is against Japanese penal code (http://www.cas.go.jp/jp/seisaku/hourei/data/PC.pdf).Article. 92 (Damage of Foreign Flag)

(1) A person who, for the purpose of insulting a foreign state, damages, removes or defiles the national flag or other national emblem of the state shall be punished by imprisonment with work for not more than 2 years of a fine of not more than 200,000 yen.

(2) The crime procribed under the preceding paragraph shall not be prosecuted without the request of the government of such state.

[pipokun]

I am watching a TV program about the annual meeting of the Japanese Teacher Union.

At the plenary session, local children, teachers and community people performed a chorus play, A Wind from Hijudai, taking up the issue of the largest war-gaming site in Kyushu. The participants reaffirmed the slogan of JTU, "Never Send Our Children to Battlefields".
http://www.jtu-net.or.jp/english/news/070307n1.html

I was surprised to know the children was 90% of 6th grader of local elementary school at free-for-all basis.
At the end of the ceremony, a agitator trumpeted, "NO JAPAN-US JOINT MILITARY MANEUVERS!!!" But to my relief, not all union member followed the insane agitation.

No problem if they would say loudly something like... "NO MILITAZRISM JAPAN, US, DPRK, PRC or wherever", but as always, the latter two countries are not supposed to be militaristic countries in their standard.

[frostyg02uk]

I dont see anything wrong with being (moderately) patriotic. Someone mentioned a kid blowing their nose? so what? this week i think the muslim countries have been having a sale on the union jack flags cause everyones burning one. In the UK even during sporting events E.G. world cup we were and are not allowed to fly our flag because its named racist and demeans ethnic minoritys making them feel "less" British. When your nation has these rules then you know you have problems.
You say maybe the kid didnt know the significance of national flags but then why should he? hes a KID! I wouldnt disrespect anyones flag but i couldnt give a dam either even for my own. to be offended by a kid blowing their nose is simular to how muslims have been reacting recently burning our flag. Why are hankercheifts made? when americans see these kind of products what did they think people would use them for? to put on their wall?

[diceke]

Why are hankercheifts made? when americans see these kind of products what did they think people would use them for? to put on their wall?
Umm. To tie it around the head?:souka:

[frostyg02uk]

Umm. To tie it around the head?:souka:
Isnt that what people use Bandannas for? Traditionally hankerchiefs were and are used for blowing your nose with.

[MadamePapillon]

Isnt that what people use Bandannas for? Traditionally hankerchiefs were and are used for blowing your nose with.
I think most people just use tissues for that now. Think about it, when was the last time you saw anyone blowing their nose with a hankerchief?

[frostyg02uk]

Hmm usually upperclass people use them here. But if i think about it this way also...when was the last time i seen someone using a hankerchief to use as a fashion accessory it has to be never.
In this case either way im sure the kid wasnt using the hankerchief to put on his head and to blow his nose. Its quite clear that they were using it to blow their nose with...and NOT to tie around their head.

[EmperorHirohito]

If a nation wants to teach its children at school all about being patriotic, then surely that must be a good thing. To be patriotic is to be proud about your country and that you are one of that country's citizens. Is it worse to not feel pride in your country and to feel that you are not a proud citizen.

Slightly off topic now, frosty I always carry a hankie in my jeans pocket, it provides a perfect rest for my bunch of keys, I dont use tissues to blow my nose as I dont find them absorbant enough, and a 95 degree wash in a washing machine kills most germs.

[KirinMan]

If a nation wants to teach its children at school all about being patriotic, then surely that must be a good thing. To be patriotic is to be proud about your country and that you are one of that country's citizens. Is it worse to not feel pride in your country and to feel that you are not a proud citizen.

While I agree with you here, I dont see the current administration here as making an attempt at teaching patriotism but nationalism. A very fine line between the two, as I am sure you know.

To truly teach patriotism imo a country and it's people must be willing to live up and admit it's faults along with it's strong points, and somehow I dont see Japan living up to and admitting it's faults anytime soon.

[EmperorHirohito]

I know exactly what you mean Obeika. I am very patriotic about my country, I know it has its faults from the past, but it also has a lot of things that can make me proud to be British. But I am not in favour of nationalism in this country, it is slowly dividing parts of this island. Im just glad my dad is no longer alive, I think he would be horrorfied as to what has happened over here.

As to Japan moving forward, maybe it might happen one day............

[Sukotto]

you can't make anyone love anybody or anything.

you will only breed resentment

[pipokun]

I dont see the current administration here as making an attempt at teaching patriotism but nationalism.

Be more specific.
I will fully apologise if stupid hate crimes would be rampant after the ultra-natinalistic education.

[KirinMan]

Be more specific.

Mmm...You know you are great at asking questions but a bit slow at answering them yourself, if you even do, so please remember that for future reference. One other thing, my Mom can talk to me this way, most other people use the word's please or could you.....:okashii:

Here are a few examples of "nationalism"...

Teachers getting fired for not standing at the playing of Kimigayo.

The government's continuing insistence on recreating it's history, and that is in related to so many different sub-topics as well.

Let's not even get started on the administrations wanting to change the consititution to allow Japan to participate in "military" actions throughout the world. That also includes upgrading the JSDF to ministerial status.

THe PM's visits to Yasukuni.

[pipokun]

What do you think the teacher like in the post #83 (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=432649&postcount=83) here?

You should face the fact that there are a bit different teachers having similar opinions like yours, esp., if you raise your kids here.

[pipokun]

Many liberal heads concern so-called rising nationalism in Japan.

Shinpu is an ultraright-wing political group. You can find the current Japan in the result.

Upper house election 2004
128,478
(0.23％)
http://www2.asahi.com/2004senkyo/kaihyo/pr_tousen_hireiku.html

Upper house election 2007
170,515
(0.29％)
http://www2.asahi.com/senkyo2007/kaihyo/C09.html

Just 0.06 increase over the last 4 years...
Curious what if some European countries would lift the law prohibiting far-right groups from running the election there.

[madhamster]

hmm, I am doing a research paper on the Japanese history textbook controversy and I would appreciate if you all could help me complete a simple survey which will not take more than 2 minutes. Thank You :bluush:

surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=ORI7ffddu7lM1ojSnGH4Ew_3d_3d

[Gazerocks]

teach patriotism? how's tt possible...I think it comes in a natural way, can't be forced?

[pipokun]

甲子園で学ラン“封印”　宇治山田商応援団「戦争想起 」に過剰反応？
　第８９回全国高校野球選手権大会で、１６日に佐賀北 （佐賀）と引き分け再試合を行う三重県代表、宇治山田 商業の野球部応援団が、県大会決勝まで続けてきた学ラ ンと「日の丸」の鉢巻き姿での応援を甲子園で“封印” していたことがわかった。「戦争を想起させる学ランは 不適切」との投書がきっかけで、県高野連と同校が協議 し、急遽（きゅうきょ）トレーナー姿での応援に変更した。
http://www.sankei-kansai.com/01_syakai/sya081606.htm

No more war, no boys in black!
Ujiyamada High School in Mie sealed their school uniforms and hinomaru-headbands for cheering squads in the highschool baseball tounament after an anonymous letter criticizing it reminds us of the war.
Get the victory headband (http://www.japanesegift.jp/popup_image.php?pID=253&tID=0&osCsid=392e38ced707c4bd60fbc0eec520c6f8)

http://www.wasedajg.ed.jp/ouen/P325009911.JPG
Cheering squads are usually like the above. I don't know why the guy did not criticise the girls' cheerleading uniform for "horrible Americanization".

The important thing is that young baseball players could not play baseball during the war. So we should keep it in mind.
Mie is infamous for high unionising rate of lefty teacher's union in Japan.

teach patriotism? how's tt possible
I don't know it is possible or not, but at least I can say the students enjoy baseball matches.

[duff_o_josh]

I think the point of making the curicculums more patriotic is more of a control issue. By that i mean, they need children (As they grow) to believe what they teach and how they are suppose to act is proper. Going to school, going to college, getting a job right after at some company and working there for the rest of their lives... things like this, promoting loyalty at young ages, helps the economy stay competitive in a fast changing pacific market.

[Sukotto]

I just got done reading a book that might be relevant here:
Nationalisms In Japan (http://www.amazon.com/Nationalisms-Sheffield-Japanese-Studies-Routledge/dp/0415400538) put out by (Sheffield Centre for Japanese Studies/Routledge Series) edited by Naoko Shimazu

a couple pages of intro here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0415400538?ie=UTF8&p=S00A



Various researchers contributed chapters to this book.
*They talk about the birth of nationalism in Japan about the time of the Meiji restoration and the international models that helped form it.

*Young Japanese soldiers who were sent abroad to war, expanding their world from localities via train rides across the country and off to war. This helped form an idea of nationalism were there was none before.

*One chapter talked about the debate that took during WW1 and the League of Nations.

*Another the nationalist extremism of WW2, and various grassroots groups that helped this along. It was not merely a top-down nationalism, writes the author.

*Ainu moshiri (Ainu nationalism) and its creation.

*The 3rd textbook battle that took place in the early 90s, which had grassroots on both sides of the debate.

*And lastly the controversy over Yasukuni Shrine.
This chapter the author mentions the founding doctrine behind
the shrine and that people that wished family member's remains
be removed were denied this wish. Whether they were Japanese
citizens or victims of Japanese imperialism from Korea or Taiwan,
all families were denied their wish.


The book ends reminding us the world is not pre-WW2 era and the international influences of nationalism that do affect people's ideas of nationalism and has affected Japan in the past. Also that rather than one "Japanese nationalism", there are "Nationalisms in Japan".


I just wanted to share this book with everybody.
I'm sure there are articles or books with similar themes out there.
I got this one via inter-library loan.

[GodEmperorLeto]

teach patriotism? how's tt possible...I think it comes in a natural way, can't be forced?

Before it became bad in the United States, we taught patriotism a great deal. Such figures as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln were deified into a specific American mythology that was created from the very dawn of the Republic. Children were made to memorize "The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere", read books like Johnny Tremain, and recite the Gettysburg Address. Disney movies about Davey Crockett fed into this mythologizing trend during the mid-20th century, making use of film as a medium to further impress patriotism upon children.

Granted, when you teach a mythology, even one as historically accurate (by comparison to other mythologies, that is) as the American one, you are, to some degree, indoctrinating students into a level of falsehood. For example, even though the story dates back to his lifetime, Washington never cut down the cherry tree. The anecdote was purposely fabricated by early American historians in order to intensify the cult of personality that surrounded Washington and enhance his legacy for future generations.

Sometimes, this education had negative aspects, such as the portrayal of Native American nations as savage antagonists. However, just as many films and books that depicted them as barbaric also took a much more realistic and objective approach during the 1950s and 1960s.

Patriotism itself is not a bad thing, as I said many months ago. It should most certainly be taught in public schools. But nationalism is wholly different, and far more intense. Patriotism would never lead a citizen to obey a dictator who demanded atrocities from him. Nationalism would.

[Sukotto]

Disney movies about Davey Crockett fed into this mythologizing trend during the mid-20th century, making use of film as a medium to further impress patriotism upon children.

Yeah. and this stuff just made sure that history remained whitewashed.

Disney-fied history, which still exists in such places as Disney theme parks cover up history as much as Japan's right-wing trying to deny the existence of the "Comfort Women" and the Rape of Nanking.

Disney version, which to some extent still exists thanks to right wing ultra-nationalist talk show hosts such as Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, and also Anne Coultier and Faux News' Bill O'Really,
...the Disney version would be that the continent's First Nations' people were super good friends with the land settling predator Europeans;
...that the A-bomb was not a war crime;
...that the invasion of Vietnam was not a war crime;
and that corporations such as Ford and Coca-cola brought a happy future for all.
...probably the biggest Disney-type myth is that change happened at the top. The Disney-type history myth totally leaves out that everyday people are the ones that brought the US to where it is today.

There is the myth that some corporate head or wise-man as president brought a better world.
NO single bigger myth exist in the US (and probably the world), than this.
Be it better working conditions, an end to legal discrimination, an end to the Vietnam war, .... none of these were brought upon by any single or group of enlightened rulers. ALL were forced upon the rulers, be they in gov't or the legal entities called corporations.
And the end of corporate rule will not come from above either.
Anything from above will be but a distraction or a re-adjustment of the way those on top rule.

Things such as patriotism, the dividing of us all by such petty things as land of origin are all distractions. Love for our friends, family, and home areas we grew up in are taken from us and transformed into something called nationalism or the more P.C. word "patriotism". But the rulers still war on us, using us as cannon fodder, and keeping the vast majority of the planet poor and calling it natural and others "uncivilized" or "not capable of understanding our enlightened ways".

It's a total joke on us. We are divided and war continues. You can see or feel it when an attrocity such as terrorist attacks in NY or Tokyo subways spark outrage and sympathy but equal or worse tragedies such as in Darfur or in Iraq during the 90s cause of sanctions do not.

down with patriotism and the wars and global poverty it feeds.
we're all in this together.

end crappy rant

[Glenski]

Less discussion about the USA and Walt Disney. More about Shinzo Abe and the fine line between patriotism and nationalism.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Less discussion about the USA and Walt Disney. More about Shinzo Abe and the fine line between patriotism and nationalism.

I dunno about Sukotto, but I'm trying to be comparative. I don't think teaching patriotism is a bad thing, and indeed belongs in school, both in Japan and the United States (and everywhere else), but I also am trying to stress how nationalism is not constructive.

There is a fine line between the two concepts, but it's there, and shouldn't be crossed. A patriotic Japanese student will love his country, but also be critical of his leadership. Then again, considering the Japanese cultural viewpoint of obedience and deference to leadership, it becomes increasingly difficult to imagine patriotic Japanese citizens being openly critical of their government. Patriotism + tatemae = nationalism? I wonder how much this equation contributed to the militarization of the government during the early 20th century? Considering what Abe rights in Towards a Beautiful Country, I'm starting to have serious thoughts as to how Japanese culture might apply patriotic education in the classroom.

[Sukotto]

The thing is,
Patriotism is indoctrination.
And it is from the top-down.
The opposite of the way any real change for more rights for more people has occurred - in the US at least.

While the top-down model is characteristic of Japanese culture, so
too is the idea of consensus. I wonder how much of the top-down isn't really
just for show or "officialdom". Maybe by the time officialdom decides to change it has become pretty much consensus among all those below that X is the way to go? Such often is the case in the US. Witness the population's disdain for the war in Iraq and the desire to end it, yet politicians of both major parties continue to fund it and build permanent military bases.


In the book Nationalisms in Japan (http://www.amazon.com/Nationalisms-Sheffield-Japanese-Studies-Routledge/dp/0415400538) (Sheffield Centre for Japanese Studies/Routledge Series) by Naoko Shimazu (editor)
Scholars put together papers on their particular expertise.
The editor/moderator explains in her segment one conclusion is that ideas of nationalism (I'd add its P.C. version "patriotism") are influenced by the ideas of nationalism/patriotism in countries throughout the world.

Japan, like the US, or any country for that matter, is not a bubble (except maybe economy - ouch). Even during Japan's historic self-imposed isolation there were still ports open to trade and the emperor's system had contact with the outside world. What better way to keep people under control than to keep them isolated and uneducated from the rest of the world, and/or at least obedient to some sort of central authority, in this case a country.


Comparative ideas from other countries, including on patriotism/nationalism are what helps form other countries ideas of such.

How can I criticize another country's system of indoctrination unless I first make attempts at criticizing the ones from the country I am from?


As for Disney, while one can hardly be faulted for wanting to have a break from the daily grind, their superficial white-washed unreality of history doesn't help. Maybe it would be better that Disney did not try to inform while they entertain for profit? "For profit" more often than not wants things uncontroversial and easily digestible to maximize profit. Disney just happens to be a highly visible example of this.

[Glenski]

I have to disagree with you, Sukotto, at least in part about Japan not being in a bubble.

Yes, globalization is forcing Japan to open its eyes, ears, and doors, but it is terribly slow, and off the top of my head, I can list a few real sticklers here. Sorry if they are not related to nationalism or patriotism, but these are in response to what you wrote:

1) despite Japan's problems with growing numbers of elderly, it refuses to let in foreigners to do much of the work, and it is doing darned little to foster a rise in birth rate. There are no other options. Once the old people die off, who is going to be left to do the work?

2) Japan sends its businessmen overseas for work, but when they return, they are given a long period of time to "cool off" and lose the western ideas they may have learned. It doesn't want them here in many cases.

3) Japan is very tight with its foreign patents, especially in the pharmaceutical market. It wants the knowledge from abroad, but it is unwilling to share.

4) The English education here is pretty lame, yet Japan claims to recognize its importance. Still, it turns a blind eye by not doing anything substantive to improve its place in the world dominated by English speakers, and our illustrious Shinzo Abe's regime has just done a 180 on Koizumi's plans to put English as mandatory in elementary schools. Self-defeating language isolation.

OK, back to the nationalism tack (although all of my 4 points are related)...

How can I criticize another country's system of indoctrination unless I first make attempts at criticizing the ones from the country I am from?Aren't you Japanese? Somehow I got that impression. I thought we were criticizing (or critiquing) the Japanese attempts to teach patriotism, not the USA's. If you are American, so be it. The point here is Japanese.

[Sukotto]

OK, back to the nationalism tack (although all of my 4 points are related)...Aren't you Japanese? Somehow I got that impression. I thought we were criticizing (or critiquing) the Japanese attempts to teach patriotism, not the USA's. If you are American, so be it. The point here is Japanese.


Yes, but the point is ideas of nationalism(which to me, in some ways is another word "patriotism". As the Ultra-nationalist I've sometimes jokingly called the super-patriot.) are also reflected by international ideas as well. Before the Meiji restoration era and the imperialist wars in Manchuria and w/Russia, there essentially were no nationalisms in Japan at the level of the everyday person/citizen, according to authors in the book cited above.
And the ideas of that time through WW2 and even through today, reflect ideas of nationalism in the broader world.


By citing methods of indoctrination in the US and crimes committed in the name of the nation...to cite George Orwell
"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."
it might help put ideas of nationalisms/patriotism into perspective.

It's not so much a person's day-to-day habits, but people's ideas of the country or the state and "their side" in the world.

Am I digging myself a bigger hole here?


Perhaps the main point to make, that the authors point out in the book above, is that there is not "Japanese Nationalism",
but "nationalisms in Japan".

Some ultra-nationalists or super-patriots try to claim you are not "patriotic" if you do not hold X belief. This is the same in every country.
In the US it might be you must stand for the pledge of allegiance to the flag, i.e. worship the country's flag as a deity, or "support the troops" in any war present or past and all the attrocities done in the name of the country, codenamed "freedom". Using atomic bombs might be one example.
vs
similar things in Japan-
it might some people's views that you are not patriotic or a self-hating Japanese citizen if you believe the Comfort Women or that the Rape of Nanking happened (they did).


Caster criticizes the US congress for bringing up the Comfort Women issue and mentions war crimes in Vietnam committed by the US.
He is half right. War crimes were committed by both the US and Japan, both being imperialist (no honor in empire, sorry).
And did the US appologize for invading Vietnam?
Not that I know of. I know the US did no compensate Vietnam monetarily as political leaders promised.

I'm sorry, but if criticizing war crimes done by the government of the country I happen to have citizenship in is un-patriotic, then I cannot help but be unpatriotic.

Ideas of nationalism/patriotism in one country are reflected in another.
Not necessarily mirror images, but similar.
How we mythologize the past reflects on the ideas of our respective countries today and how much of this thing called "patriotism" we have. Or what it means.


again,
Am I digging myself a bigger hole here? probably

[Glenski]

Yes, but the point is ideas of nationalism(which to me, in some ways is another word "patriotism". That's your prerogative.

By citing methods of indoctrination in the US and crimes committed in the name of the nation...to cite George Orwell
"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."
it might help put ideas of nationalisms/patriotism into perspective.
It's not so much a person's day-to-day habits, but people's ideas of the country or the state and "their side" in the world.
Am I digging myself a bigger hole here?As I see it, yes. If any of the nationalism currently in Japan have this feeling, then don't you think it is pretty scary to teach such ideologies that lead to such feelings of animosity? Like I said, scary.


In the US it might be you must stand for the pledge of allegiance to the flag, i.e. worship the country's flag as a deity, or "support the troops" in any war present or past and all the attrocities done in the name of the country, codenamed "freedom". I don't think you are correct about the first point, I know you are dead wrong about the second (or are just using the word "deity" as an exaggeration), and you are way off with the third point (which is only a feeling shared by the politicians who sent such soldiers abroad; if citizens were supposed to support them, then over half of the USA is in contempt).

it might some people's views that you are not patriotic or a self-hating Japanese citizen if you believe the Comfort Women or that the Rape of Nanking happened (they did).Nobody says Japanese have to be "self-hating". Just that they realize such things happened and should not be swept under the carpet. Same B.S. happens elsewhere, and those citizens don't have to be self-hating.

And did the US appologize for invading Vietnam?Wait. Invade means enter forcibly to attack its citizens. I think the US, whatever its motives, came in to defend from another military force that invaded. Besides, that sort of "nationalism" was not backed by the American people anyway, and it is perfect example of a government (the USA) trying to persuade its people to follow its nationalistic goals (whatever the heck they were at that time). Such nationalism is what we are talking about here in regards to Japan. Teaching patriotism (love of one's country based on its foundation and good points) is one thing, but nationalism implies policy, which varies from administration to administration.

I'm sorry, but if criticizing war crimes done by the government of the country I happen to have citizenship in is un-patriotic, then I cannot help but be unpatriotic.Personally, I don't call that unpatriotic, but some of your Japanese politicians might. Ask them.

How we mythologize the past reflects on the ideas of our respective countries today and how much of this thing called "patriotism" we have. Or what it means.
again,
Am I digging myself a bigger hole here? probablyI would think so.

[Sukotto]

And did the US appologize for invading Vietnam?
Wait. Invade means enter forcibly to attack its citizens. I think the US, whatever its motives, came in to defend from another military force that invaded.

Personally, I don't call that unpatriotic, but some of your Japanese politicians might. Ask them.

actually, i am not Japanese, but US born citizen.

South Vietnam was essentially an invention of the US and/or France, outside powers anyway. US invaded after France decided continued colonization was no longer worth it. They left and the civil war eventually wound down quicker and less violent than with extra outside guns present.

since dissension can also be patriotic in a democratic society, how or are they also teaching this?

[Mars Man]

Whatever may or may not be the exact case with other events over the course of time, in other regions of the world, the matter of the present Japanese government's teaching of, or attempts to instill patriotism in public schools, is what should be under consideration.

I have been trying to keep my eyes open for that matter, but it is a little hard. I have two sons who are yet in the jr. high school realm, and am trying to see if I can see anything coming through in their school work, or papers that come to us. I can't really, at the moment.

It seems that on the elementary level, some effort is being made through the typical group projects that lean towards enviornmental cleanliness. That element of 'aikokushin' (love of country) [if I got the wording in the correct order--I sometimes slip on that] is good, I would say.

Anyway, leaving other parts of the world on the side, here in JAPAN, I can't see any really overt stuff happening yet, as regards teaching patriotism to the school kids.

[GodEmperorLeto]

South Vietnam was essentially an invention of the US and/or France, outside powers anyway.
Wrong. The Geneva Accords, which accompanied worldwide de-colonialization, was signed between Cambodia, the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, France, Laos, the People's Republic of China, the State of Vietnam, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Culturally, Champa (S. Vietnam) was always separate from Dai Viet (north). The split was natural. The Viet Minh wanted the whole thing. It was not arbitrary, and it was not an "invention".

US invaded after France decided continued colonization was no longer worth it.
Wrong again. The French left. The U.S. placed men in S. Vietnam to train the S. Vietnamese Army. The U.S. deployed soldiers in S. Vietnam after Congress gave L.B.J. a blank check following the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. The initial tactic was to deploy Marines to hold and defend airfields in S. Vietnam while bombing N. Vietnam. It was not initially an invasion, but the ground forces had defensive objectives. These gradually shifted overtime to search-and-destroy missions due to the nature of guerilla warfare.

They left and the civil war eventually wound down quicker and less violent than with extra outside guns present.
Wrong on two counts. One, it was not a civil war. S. Vietnam was politically and culturally independent of the north, and was recognized as a sovereign nation. Saddam Hussein claimed Kuwait as the 19th province, and nobody considers Iraq's 1991 invasion of it as a "civil war", but as an aggressive invasion of a recognized sovereign state.

Secondly, the war didn't wind down, it ended. Linebacker 1 and 2 were largely successful and pulling the N. Vietnamese into peace talks. After two years, the N. Vietnamese broke the peace treaty. Repeat: BROKE THE PEACE TREATY. S. Vietnam fell shortly after.

Anyway, leaving other parts of the world on the side, here in JAPAN, I can't see any really overt stuff happening yet, as regards teaching patriotism to the school kids.
There was a big stink a while back about Tokyo(?) teachers being fired or fined over not singing the Japanese national anthem, and about Japanese students being forced to sing it in schools. It isn't that the song was being required, but the nature of the lyrics themselves which were sparking the "civil disobedience" on behalf of the teachers.

I just read something yesterday about it again, but I cannot find the article link. If I do, I'll post it.

[Mars Man]

Yes. That issue of firing teachers at the public schools because they refused to sing the anthem--for whatever reason--is evidence of a certain lack of democratic-like thinking. I agree about the real cause of the decision--as far as I know in most cases--not to sing, were due to the words themselves, yes.

That issue came up before the matter of changing the education law, and I am generally following that. On the elementary, jr.high, and highschool levels, I have not noticed any outright 'teaching' which could clearly be seen as having been designed to teach 'patriotism' or even instill it.

Please do keep in mind that my idea of what 'patriotism' is, may be slightly different. (I think I spelled that out on another thread related to this same subject which had been earlier)

I hope we can leave other countries behind, now. . .

[caster51]

Yes. That issue of firing teachers at the public schools because they refused to sing the anthem--for whatever reason--is evidence of a certain lack of democratic-like thinking. I agree about the real cause of the decision--as far as I know in most cases--not to sing, were due to the words themselves, yes.

It is a mere ideology of ant-Japan.

there are so many Zainichi teachers who refused to sing.
They are basically civil servants.
It is not possible to political act by the ideology.

if they were the Japanese and stayed Foreign country for 3 years, they would realize how they were stupid.

[Mars Man]

Thanks for your reply, caster51 san. Could I ask you to please elaborate a little more? I can't quite see the logic flow of the argument. Thank you. MM

[caster51]

Mars Man:
you are living in Japan, right
then you are watching your home country from a Foreign country
You are sure to live in a foreign country and to have understood how much you love your home country over again.
It might not be understood when you are in the home country.
you would sing your National anthem at world cup.
it is natural feeling...
however, you know it is not nationlism.

how do you want your home country to become?
Do you hope for the profit of another country more than the profit of the home country?

anyway
I think a lot of Japanese feel the birth as the Japanese happy.
Patriotism is not a nationalism.
The person who thinks so is foolish.
it is easy to understand nationalism.
however it is so defficult to understand what real patriotism is...

at first, that is way Japan should teach what real patriotism is.
then we must understand what we should do ...

[GodEmperorLeto]

They are basically civil servants.
It is not possible to political act by the ideology.
You have a good point, I think.

It isn't quite anti-Democratic. As employees of the government, you don't have a right to do something like that without expecting repurcussions. That would be like being an employee of a company, and openly deride it wherever you go. You won't be an employee of theirs for long. You shouldn't expect to be.

Yeah, there's something to be said about civil expression and protest. But there might have been better avenues of protest. I don't know, I wasn't there, so I can't judge, but it is not, by far, a cut-and-dried situation, I think.

I think a lot of Japanese feel the birth as the Japanese happy.
Patriotism is not a nationalism.
The person who thinks so is foolish.
it is easy to understand nationalism.
however it is so defficult to understand what real patriotism is...
Thank you! That's what I've been saying all along.

[w1ngzer0]

Loving one's country should be a spontaneous emotion insead of being told to do so.


Exactly. Best words ever :cool:

[Mars Man]

Thank you caster51 san, for that really nice reply !! :cool: It was nice in the volume of content from you, yourself (rather than simply a link) and it was nice in how it was laid out. . . the argument was well made !!

Yes, I am, legally (as my profile clearly states) a citizen of the USA. Nevertheless, I have outgrown the thinking of 'love within the borders.' (caster51, if you cannot fully, and emotionally, follow this idea, please tell me, and I will explain more--it is important NOT to rush here, to be able to fully understand each other...let's take our time)

In full honesty, I do not think more of the USA, simply due to having lived in Japan for a time. Again, I have outgrown that frame of mind. (and yes, I am purposely using the verb 'outgrow' due to my understanding being that there is a mode of understanding which moves upwards out of the more 'tribal-based' mode) I think in the mode of humankind. Where I am, is my country. Where I am, is my home--it is still this one and same planet (the only home we have in the universe).

I would no more sing the National Anthem implemented by the American Government at large, than I would that of Japan, Iran, The Republic of the Congo, or Brazil. If the UN had an International Anthem, depending on the thrust of meaning, I might well sing that, and salute that flag. (a thing which is a representative of the idealism of the group that created it)

I hope for the profit of humankind--the world upon which we all live. I follow the suggestion of the ramen commercial, and the organization 'Doctors Without Borders.'

Now, as regards democratic-like thinking, (the exact wording in my earlier post) I will very strongly argue that that IS lacking in Japan. (of course in many other parts of the world too !) Regardless of what ideology those teachers had embraced, when the government at large decided to re-install a National Anthem (and it is important to also keep in mind that it had not been a requirement when surely most of those teachers had sought those jobs) it would have been more democratic-like to allow all peoples to choose to sing or not to sing--period.

I disagree with the view that the government owns the school system, as 7-11 holdings owns the convience store chain and the old Ito Yokodo chain. The government is there to set guidelines for the educational program, to help the educational program (prefectures and some private schools) financially, but should not consider itself to be stipulating rules of conduct to the prefectures as seen through pressure to secure its wishes. . . all the way down to the very principals of the individual school, as, in fact, it is doing. I hold this mode of thinking to be the far lesser productive one.

I do not feel that 'AI KOKU SHIN' quite fully fits the English, 'patriotic' or 'patriotism.' I do not reason that 'patriotism' is fully divorceable from 'nationalism.' A pine tree and a chrysanthemum are quite different, yet they both work on photosynthesis (so the question is, 'what is photosynthesis?') they are both rooted into soil (so 'what is soil?'). This analogy would explain the sameness and difference of these two phenomena--'patriotism' and 'nationalism' as is the order in which they most logically, historically appear to have developed.

The thing to do, then, would be to investigate the elements which are the same--the 'grounds' and the 'workings' of these two otherwise differently figured concepts. (it has been done on another thread of old...I cannot find it now.)

caster51 san, please excuse me. I wanted to write this in easier English, but somehow could not. I'm sorry. Please do ask if there are any areas you do not follow exactly. In short, I understand the first point being made in your post (first 2 paragraphs) and reason that that style of thinking is old, and should be discarded. I reason that the second point in that post is correct in essence, but is in need of fuller and deeper thought and presentation. I disagree with the concept presented in your other post. I maintain that the essential grounding of the idea is at fault due to the degree of its unproductiveness and lack of fuller consideration.

[Glenski]

It is a mere ideology of ant-Japan.
there are so many Zainichi teachers who refused to sing.
They are basically civil servants.
caster,
The way you wrote above, one might think you meant that the majority of teachers who refused to stand or sing were Zainichi. Is that what you implied? If so, please prove it. Since the number of teachers in Japan are non-Zainichi Japanese, it only follows that most of the rebels were regular ol' Japanese citizens who just didn't like the old-world nature of the song lyrics, referring to the Emperor as a god.

It is not possible to political act by the ideology.
if they were the Japanese and stayed Foreign country for 3 years, they would realize how they were stupid.I have no idea what you meant by the first statement here, but as I read it, it is dead wrong by pure definition. What did you mean?

[caster51]

it only follows that most of the rebels were regular ol' Japanese citizens who just didn't like the old-world nature of the song lyrics, referring to the Emperor as a god.
There is a dissenter even if the national anthem is changed.
It is a problem of the interpretation.
My interpretation is kimi is Japan.
Nobody might think the emperor to be a god in modern people.
The person who was born at prewar days might revive the brainwash like flash back.
however these teacher were born after war.
it has nothing to do with Interpretation.
To begin with, Kimigayo is a song at the wedding for a couple
so, Interpretation will be changed by positibe mind
We cant change my family name , even though my ancester was criminal.
if they were dirty, we should make them a pride, that is, more wanderful country.
why does not a teacher say like this " let's make Japan as a wonderful country where these are respected more by other country":p
then what can you contribute to the world, Japan ,your friend....

They pass out leaflets in the graduation ceremony.
They force not to sing to the student.
if i dont like to sing this song, I would sing other song without attension
the national anthem and the national flag do not have a guilty at all.
name of Nippon does not have a guilty at all.either.

patriotism is not ony contribution to a home country.
If the fame of the country goes up by contributing to the world, i think it is also one of patriotism.

[Glenski]

caster,
Your interpretation of Kimigayo ("kimi is Japan") is all yours. I will never tell you you are wrong, because that is your opinion.

However, you wrote that "To begin with, Kimigayo is a song at the wedding for a couple". My Japanese wife is absolutely stunned at this. Where did you ever get this idea? She has never heard of anyone ever playing it at a wedding.

The English translation goes as follows:
May the reign of the Emperor continue for a thousand, nay, eight thousand generations and for the eternity that it takes for small pebbles to grow into a great rock and become covered with moss.

or this translation...

May our gracious Emperor reign,
Till a thousand, yea ten thou-sand years shall roll,
Till the sand in the brooklet grows to stone,
And the moss from these pebbles emeralds make!.

So, it is clear that only those who are very fond of the Emperor or who strongly believe in him as a deity would feel such respect over the song. But to play it at a wedding!!??!?!?

Granted, if people still adhered to the meaning of "kimi" as sweetheart (as Wikipedia states, if you can believe that source) back in the Heian period, them it might have some relation to celebrations like weddings, but only way back then. The lyrics changed, and so did the meaning of "kimi" to "our lord".

[Mars Man]

why does not a teacher say like this " let's make Japan as a wonderful country where these are respected more by other country":p
then what can you contribute to the world, Japan ,your friend....

I see the fundamental elements of the above idea, as being the truer essence of 'love of country' as I have highlighted in an earlier thread on this same matter. The upper end, is not for Japan, as a single politico-economic singularity, but for the world. (we are focusing on Japan here, but of course it would be the same for every entity, worldwide.)

They pass out leaflets in the graduation ceremony.
They force not to sing to the student.
if i dont like to sing this song, I would sing other song without attension

Yes, that is the point I had made earlier. . . It is more along the lines of democratic-like thinking to allow each person to choose his or her way without any pressure. That means, no original pressure from the government to sing it, as well as no pressure from opposing groups to not sing it. The fairness of the individual freedom here is more productive as a social bonding agent due to the fact that it weakens the boundries between in-group and out-group.

Caster51, I think, in those last comments, the English word 'guilty' is not what you really wanted. What might have been the Japanese word intended?

The last three lines, I fully and whole heartedly agree with. . . the goal is the world !!

And yes, the intention of the originator of that song, possibly being lost. . . we have to primarily take it as it was intended to have been used when it had been used for that reason. The world scene is different today, so there is room for different interpretation, but as I think Glenski is getting at, possible interpretation arguments are moot.

( I want to point out, for the record, that I can say much of the same for the American Anthem too. . . but we are discussing Japan here.)

[caster51]

My Japanese wife is absolutely stunned at this. Where did you ever get this idea? She has never heard of anyone ever playing it at a wedding.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%90%9B%E3%81%8C%E4%BB%A3
http://www.ffortune.net/social/seso/nihon-mei/kimigayo.htm
君が代は元々古今集に収録されていた詠み人知らずの古歌（巻７賀歌の冒頭）
ですが、おめでたい歌として、神事・仏事・宴席などで盛んに歌われて来ま
した。単に抑揚を付けて歌われたこともあれば、田楽や箏曲などに乗せて歌
われたこともあるようです。むろん昔にパンクがあればパンクに乗せて歌っ
た人もあったでしょう。昔の田楽(でんがく)というのは今でいえばロックの
ようなもの。通俗舞踊です。
can you understand it?
I think your wife can undestand it.
she just did not know it
then Meiji gervenment added another interpretation..
I was taught in elemntary school.......so on by teachers
Kimi maight mean "you" ,"nation" or Emperor....
I think it depends on you how you interpretat...
I dont want only one interpretation, that is , emperor
I think that there may be various interpretations


and a teacher should teach it, kimi is the things which you love

Ou Japan,
Till a thousand, yea ten thou-sand years shall roll,
Till the sand in the brooklet grows to stone,
And the moss from these pebbles emeralds make!.

i think it is better interpretation


長い間歌われ続けて来た結果いつの間にか「わが君は」が
「君が代は」に変化してしまいました。ここで「君」が誰を指すのかについ
ては意見が分かれます。「君」で天皇を指す例は確かに多いのですが、結婚
式などで歌われていたことを考えますと、むしろ民衆の間ではその場にいる
宴席の主人公を指すと考えられていた可能性が高いと思います。（結婚式な
らその夫婦、天皇の前でなら当然天皇、静御前の場合は形式的には頼朝です
が、心情的には義経だったのでしょう）

[Mars Man]

a teacher should teach it, kimi is the things which you love


I very seriously doubt that there would be any effective reality behind such an effort. No, a teacher should not teach what it means, just a wise master answers by a counter question. . . 'Why does it have to have meaning?'

[caster51]

'Why does it have to have meaning?'

because someone misunderstads and make a political issue with some purpose ...:p

i think ordinal ppl does not care about that.

so am I

[Mars Man]

That is true. (oh and I have to edit my earlier post, I missed a negator)

Yes, I fully agree, most ordinary people don't care about it, don't really think about it, and just do what everyone else does. Or just do what those taking the lead insinuate they should do.

THIS bothers me. THIS shows a lack of democratic thinking. THIS 'follow the sheep in front' type mentality--be it here in Japan, the USA, France, or the UK--is largely unhealthy and less productive for humankind than otherwise.

Thanks for that input and those thoughts !! Nice !!

[Glenski]

caster,
The quote refers to events that took place over 120 years ago, and it refers mostly to "divine services, Buddhist ceremony, and end year party". It barely mentions weddings at all. Your statement a few posts back says that Kimigayo is used today in weddings. So, let's stay on track here.

Wedding customs vary throughout Japan. In some areas, for example, husbands have to give a "payment" to the wife's parents, but in other areas, they don't. (Thankfully, I live in the latter category.) Do you know what areas within Japan that currently today use Kimigayo in weddings, and can you show a source? 1870 is not today.

As for this:
and a teacher should teach it, kimi is the things which you loveI think you have to agree that "should" is a strong word, and many Japanese do not agree with you about its interpretation. It was originally a poem, not a piece of literature or music commissioned to represent the Japanese nation. Literature, especially poetry, has a wide amount of interpretation, and I think you will find that the many rebellious teachers who refuse to stand during Kimigayo have their reasons -- good ones stemming from an interpretation different from your own. So, how can you propose teaching something that a teacher doesn't believe in?

You wrote:
i think ordinal ppl does not care about that. (political issue) Well, I don't see that you can justify such a statement with all the ordinary people (teachers) refusing to acknowledge Kimigayo for the very reason that is it political.

[caster51]

Anyway ,Bfore meiji Era, Kimi was indicated a pesons who were blessed.
it was not a emperor
so, it can change by our mind.
Do you know what areas within Japan that currently today use Kimigayo in weddings, and can you show a source? 1870 is not today.
it is a just fashion.
It has a nothing to do with kimi's interpretation of Today.
it is a just poem that a person or something are blessed

So, how can you propose teaching something that a teacher doesn't believe in?

I think they dont have a capabilities to teach because they are not flexible.
WHY did they believe it?
because someone brainwashed them

[KirinMan]

Side note here; I have been to literally hundreds of weddings in my time here in Japan and I can NEVER recall kimigayo ever being played.

Maybe they play it for uyoku couples when they get married along with other martial, let's bring back the emperor types of music.

[caster51]

Side note here; I have been to literally hundreds of weddings in my time here in Japan and I can NEVER recall kimigayo ever being played.


Who said about Today's custom:blush:

you guys still misunderstand.

kimigayo is a Japanese Poem
today's melody was made in Meiji era by a German


then there was no fixed melody like today's kimigayo song before meiji

Shigin... or Nagauta..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigin
Heike monogatari
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQIjaosvrJE

I think it was sung like that

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
いわゆる歌のように、詩文をリズム、メロディに乗せて歌うのではなく、詩文の素読（朗読）を基本とし、素読 の後に特有のメロディを加えることで、より効果的に詩情を表現する。

具体的には、「はーるーこーおーじょーおーのー、はーなーのーえーんー」と歌うのではなく、「はるゥーー（ 節調）こーじょーのォーー（節調）、はなのォーー（節調）えんンーー（節調）」というように、語尾の母音を 長く引き、そこで節調を行うことになる。

詩吟が、その吟詠（吟ずること）の対象とするのは、その歴史的経緯から主として漢詩であるが、和歌や俳句、 新体詩を吟ずることも少なくない。ただし、あまり長いものは好まれず、漢詩の吟詠であっても七言絶句が一般 的である

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%A9%A9%E5%90%9F


I think kimigayo was sung like Takasago..
nobody will sing a song it today at wedding
http://www.amie.or.jp/daruma/Meoto-1.html
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%AB%98%E7%A0%82_(%E8%83%BD)

[caster51]

The beginning phrase-"Kimi Ga Yo"-was originally written "Wa Ga Kimi"(我が君, also approximately translated to "My Lord"). As time passed, the form using "Kimi Ga Yo" spread. At this point in time "Kimi" meant "Monarch" or "Emperor". However, in a time without mass communication, to the common people the Emperor seemed to be an untouchable, unimaginable god, floating above the clouds and a thing of long ago legend or fairy tales. So, it is also possible that the lyrics praying for the long life of "My Lord" were separated from any sort of loyalty and used instead as a prayer for the continuation of peace. For this reason, when the peacefully Heian Period changed to the bloody Edo Period, the song once again became used as a simple celebration song among common people. To go along with this, the meaning of "Kimi" also underwent a transformation. For example, when the song was sung in celebration of a wedding, "Kimi" came to mean the groom and the song was used to wish for the groom's long life and his family's health.
Incidentally, the version of the song that was published in the Elementary Student's Song Book (First Edition) maintained by the Japanese Ministry of Education (released in 1881) was longer than the current version and surprisingly, there was also a second version. It was derived from an English Hymn.
http://www.indopedia.org/Kimigayo.html

[hplaserjet6p]

Many in Japan think Kimigayo = uyoku, like those dispicable ppl in NHK.
what is so wrong about prasing the Emperor anyway, if "kimi" addresses the Emperor?

no body gives a fuss about "God save the Queen"

[diceke]

Many in Japan think Kimigayo = uyoku, like those dispicable ppl in NHK.
what is so wrong about prasing the Emperor anyway, if "kimi" addresses the Emperor?

no body gives a fuss about "God save the Queen"
Japan should teach their kids "God Save the Queen" (Sex Pistols) because I love this song..:blush:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z2M_hpoPwk

Maybe "Aux armes" is even better.:-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCbREcl8K-o

[Glenski]

Who said about Today's customYou did! I quote one page ago:
"To begin with, Kimigayo is a song at the wedding for a couple"

you guys still misunderstand.
No, we don't. You are giving us ancient history and telling us that is happens today.

[Mars Man]

I understand both sides here, I feel. I would like to suggest that a certain possible lack of accuracy in English wording may have lead to a conception which is different from that within the mind of the sender.

In simpler words: I feel that the concept, or intended image which caster51 had seen in his mind was not properly transfered through the language medium.

I'm not yet convinced that he had intended to mean at weddings today.

[GodEmperorLeto]

I understand both sides here, I feel. I would like to suggest that a certain possible lack of accuracy in English wording may have lead to a conception which is different from that within the mind of the sender.

...

I'm not yet convinced that he had intended to mean at weddings today.

Yeah, but he's also claiming, I think, that "Kimigayo" is not about the Emperor. And if you are going to be making linguistic claims like that, well, from what I know, when the song was composed as a waka during the Heian period, it was not about the Emperor, but a lover ("kimi"), but it was reinterpreted as the Emperor being the person being referred to during the Meiji era.

[caster51]

, it was not about the Emperor, but a lover ("kimi"), but it was reinterpreted as the Emperor being the person being referred to during the Meiji era.

kimi's interpretation also changes with a period.
those teachers were pitiful ppls who were caught in the recognition at certain of the past fixed time .
because they were not there

that is,they were brainwashed by some group.

They do not have flexibility.
they can not get out of their brainwashed frame at any time.
I think they might be a good student for Japanese education, or they are
prisoners of conscience for commies and anti........

[Mars Man]

Yes, GEL san, as I had tried, at least, to point out in an earlier posts somewhere above, the primary application--it's interpretation and use over the longer period of time, over the larger number of population up to the more recent time zone--of that song is what would actually have to be given the greater weight of all those involved with that same time zone and population.

I will admit, I can't exactly follow your other points, caster51 san, but as regards teaching patriotism in the public school system here in Japan, I still posit that the education system should not be owned by the government of Japan, so direct pressure of any kind to teach such a matter, be of a certain frame of mind towards the idea or whatever should not be allowed to get the upper hand.

Forcing teachers and students alike to essentially do an act of worship--as it boils down to in psychological terms--to an idea as narrow as a single national system, is disallowing a freer, more democratic way of thinking. I think that is wrong.

I do hope, gentlemen, that we can come back up out of the 'Japanese National Anthem's Interpretation Scenarios' embedding, and on to the more specific topic. Let's get back on topic ! MM

[~Dei~]

"Patriotism" in schools is one of the things that the US is ridiculed for.

Why must Japan follow in it's footsteps?

no body gives a fuss about "God save the Queen"

Most of the people I know hate it.

But then, you can't blame them for not wanting to sing what they see as a foreign national anthem.

[Glenski]

"Patriotism" in schools is one of the things that the US is ridiculed for.
I thought it was patriotism (or over-patriotism) by the government that irked people (including this American).