Offtopic US-Euro different viewpoints

[Duo]

Forcing elected officials to keep their religion private is an infringement on their free excercise and free speech. All Americans, elected or not are allowed to excercise their religion and speech and getting elected does not change that.

Maybe I'm being misunderstood here. I'm not saying public officials can't beleive in god or shouldn't be religiour or whatever, but when they enter the office serving the state their religion and beleifs shouldn't affect their job. Takin a quran to congress like this guy is doing to me affects it. Or another example is when people swear in court on the bible that they are going to tell the truth...doesn't really make sense, what does god and religion have to do in the room of secular justice.


They can wear religious garg, swear on their holy book, pray whenever they need to, celebrate, praise, worship and believe whatever they see fit. We don't need the State telling us what to do in these matters.

Why does one become a state official then ? Why not become a bishop or member of a religious group or what have you. Public officials by nature of their office should not publically do the things you just mentioned above.



It may be different in Europe, but in the US, religious freedom, tolerance, and freedom of speech are core values. Imposing the State's will on someone would be an abridgement of these basic principles.
Your private ceremony is your thing.

AH cmon...don't play the freedoms are sacred in American card. Maybe the only difference is that Europe is a bit more secular due to its dark past with religion and the middle ages and what have you. Core values eh ? Is that why you guys have the Patriot Act now ?

[sabro]

I would say that our PATRIOT USA act goes against those core values. It is amazing what fear will do.

The reason a person becomes an elected official is quite different that joining the clergy. Public officials that aren't elected are subject to the strictures of their job, as they represent the state to the people. Public officials who are elected however represent the people to the state.

In California Courts you just swear. No book involved. There are religions that don't allow swearing oaths like Jehovah's Witnesses, but we make allowances for that, also.

And the last quip is just a reaction to the seemingly fearful and oppressive anti-religious nature of some European posts. I'm not certain that all Europeans view religions and religious people in such a negative light, but Americans in general do not.

[Duo]

I'm not certain that all Europeans view religions and religious people in such a negative light, but Americans in general do not.

I don't view religous people in negative light, on the contrary many of them are quite nice and kind and all that good stuff. What I view negatively is religious influence in politics and the state. I guess Americans have not experienced, like Europe, the effects of such influence. There are a couple of European countries very religious, Poland, Spain and Italy to some extent. There also many christian-democrat parties all arounde Europe but I've yet to see them running around with a bible in the halls of parliament.

[Mike Cash]

So you are telling me it's ok if lets say a senator gets up before senate and starts to give a speech on whatever issue holding a bible in his hand and qouting passages from it and refering to god's judgment as his yardstick for the way he would vote on a bill ????

I'm just makin an example here

Absolutely.

And the reason I hate discussing this with Europeans is because it is none of Europe's damned business.

I've spent the last two years deliberately avoiding this sort of thread, and I was a fool to stick my nose into this one.

[sabro]

Thanks you Mike Cash. From me on the left to you on the right, this is one political issue that we can agree upon.

[Duo]

Absolutely.
And the reason I hate discussing this with Europeans is because it is none of Europe's damned business.


Ehhh....WHAT :D ?

Do I represent Europe or something ? I'm just a regular guy in a forum as the rest of you and we're debating on an issue....i'm sure there are many other americans that would feel the same as me, I know cuz I went to school with them.

Why the sudden anti-Euro outburst

[sabro]

It is a typical American response when Europeans try to tell us how to govern ourselves.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Another thing to keep in mind is that religion often plays a large part in U.S. elections. It's still made a big deal of the fact that JFK was the first Catholic president. I just heard on the radio the other day that a lot of U.S. voters say they just can't imagine voting for Mick Romney for president because he's Mormon, for example.

George Bush is very public about his religion, and it helped him get elected and re-elected.

My opinion is that Americans in general expect their politicians to hold roughly the same values as they do themselves, and since religion is quite important for a majority of people in the U.S. they expect it to be so for their politicians as well.

If you have some time, here's an interesting bit about Congress and religion in the coming term.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6724086

[Mike Cash]

Thanks you Mike Cash. From me on the left to you on the right, this is one political issue that we can agree upon.

I find it very interesting that in addition to you being on the left and me being on the right, when these sort of issues have come up in the past you as an (If I recall correctly, evangelical) Christian and me as a devout Atheist have always seen eye-to-eye on this sort of thing as a matter or core principles.

Very is little more annoying than a proselytizing Atheist.

Another thing to keep in mind is that religion often plays a large part in U.S. elections. It's still made a big deal of the fact that JFK was the first Catholic president. I just heard on the radio the other day that a lot of U.S. voters say they just can't imagine voting for Mick Romney for president because he's Mormon, for example.

I'd have no problem whatsoever voting for him because he's Mormon. That he's from Massachussets is what would cause me to balk.

[sabro]

Thank you Mike. I may be a liberal and an evangelical, but I am still an American. Although I may not be the sharpest tool in the drawer, I'm not too stupid, either.

As a former teacher of high school government, US history, and civics I greatly value our civil liberties and freedoms. Although our European brothers and sisters may have a unique perspective of our culture and government they sometimes seem to have a basic misunderstanding of the ties that bind us together.

That and guns and cars. They don't seem to get the whole horsepower and firepower thing... and I can't explain it.

[Duo]

It is a typical American response when Europeans try to tell us how to govern ourselves.

Don't mistake inquiry and criticism with imperative statements, I'm just saying mine on the topic here. That I don't agree with how thigns is not the same as me saying what they should be like.... i could care less

Another thing to keep in mind is that religion often plays a large part in U.S. elections. It's still made a big deal of the fact that JFK was the first Catholic president. I just heard on the radio the other day that a lot of U.S. voters say they just can't imagine voting for Mick Romney for president because he's Mormon, for example.
George Bush is very public about his religion, and it helped him get elected and re-elected.
My opinion is that Americans in general expect their politicians to hold roughly the same values as they do themselves, and since religion is quite important for a majority of people in the U.S. they expect it to be so for their politicians as well.
If you have some time, here's an interesting bit about Congress and religion in the coming term.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6724086

That's exactly where I was trying to get to. It is pretty crazy that even today public officials can be elected according to their religious preference, let's face Bush got a lot of votes from the evangelical community just because of his beleifs.... as to how those relate to him qualifying to be a president is what makes me ponder.

And thank you for the link, very interesting.

[sabro]

You clearly said that you believe American officials should keep their religion private... That public expression of religious points of view should not be allowed by elected officials and that people who want to express their religious convictions should join the clergy rather than run for office. I think that qualifies for telling us how things should be... and it indicates that you do care a bit. ( The expression is often mistaken- it should be could not care less.)

[Duo]

As a former teacher of high school government, US history, and civics I greatly value our civil liberties and freedoms. Although our European brothers and sisters may have a unique perspective of our culture and government they sometimes seem to have a basic misunderstanding of the ties that bind us together.

Actually I rather like the American system...to a certain extent because for example it wasn't good that the guy who had the popular vote, Gore, lost to the guy who didn't, Bush.

That and guns and cars. They don't seem to get the whole horsepower and firepower thing... and I can't explain it.
But then why is that more economical and underpowered japanese cars are outselling American ones?
I'm not even going to discuss the drawbacks of the second amendment.

[Goldiegirl]

I own a gun and a Ford. Wouldn't give either of them up. As for the Koran, he can use it, I just hope that he is an American first, his religion second.

[Duo]

You clearly said that you believe American officials should keep their religion private... That public expression of religious points of view should not be allowed by elected officials and that people who want to express their religious convictions should join the clergy rather than run for office. I think that qualifies for telling us how things should be... and it indicates that you do care a bit. ( The expression is often mistaken- it should be could not care less.)


hmm... I don't remember if I said american officials explicitely but I meant all public officials, no matter where and where from, and even if I would mean it as in saying how thing should be, I don't see what's so wrong with that... just because I'm a European I am disqualified from judging and commenting the American system and politics ?

I don't see why the fuss...you guys are making it sound as "who are you to tell us what to do".... just because I'm not american but I bet if I had put my location NY and never said anything about my backround you wouldn't have known the difference would you ?

[Mike Cash]

That and guns and cars. They don't seem to get the whole horsepower and firepower thing... and I can't explain it.

Remember the days when you could pop open a hood and see something that looked like an engine? When V8s were the norm and we still talked of engine sizes in cubic inches? When you didn't have to be a rocket scientist to do basic maintenance on your own car? When bench seats up front were standard?

People sometimes ask me why I don't go home. The answer is simple. The country I grew up in isn't there anymore. Nothing to draw me back but relatives, and they're starting to die off pretty regular here lately.

Peace Through Superior Firepower

[Duo]

I own a gun and a Ford. Wouldn't give either of them up.

Is a gun really necessary in Wisconsin ? I mean for example have there been cases where it was needed ? I would understand if u lived in LA or NYC

[sabro]

I have a Honda Insight (because it is economical), but also a Toyota Tacoma 4x4, BMW X3 (wife's) and a Jeep YJ that my son drives. I am building a Hummer H1 replica.

What I really want is something with a V8 and silly amounts of power. It just isn't practical, I don't have the cash, and where would I park it?

In the US, GM still holds the largest market share with 24%, Toyota is second at 16% and Ford is third at 14%. Japanese cars are not outselling American cars in the US, and many of the foreign cars here, especially the semi-domestic Daimler Chryslers sport beefier motors, or are SUV designed specifically for our market.

And gun ownership: Necessity has nothing to do with it. In LA or NYC it is as likely to be a liability as an asset. Protection is only one reason to own a gun, and not always the best reason.

And granted, you may not have said American officials explicitly, but since the thread is about an American politician and his choice of what book to take an oath on, it isn't a difficult inference to make.

[Duo]

In the US, GM still holds the largest market share with 24%, Toyota is second at 16% and Ford is third at 14%. Japanese cars are not outselling American cars in the US, and many of the foreign cars here, especially the semi-domestic Daimler Chryslers sport beefier motors, or are SUV designed specifically for our market.


But GM has slipped these last times and they are in trouble, just as Ford is.


And gun ownership: Necessity has nothing to do with it. In LA or NYC it is as likely to be a liability as an asset. Protection is only one reason to own a gun, and not always the best reason.

Well I did a paper on that and majority of the people that owned guns sited self-protection as the reason. And if you're not a hunter or gun enthusiast why have one ? Just cuz it's in 2nd amendment ?


And granted, you may not have said American officials explicitly, but since the thread is about an American politician and his choice of what book to take an oath on, it isn't a difficult inference to make.

And so what's wrong with that ? I'll say it now, american official explicitly, what does me not being American have to do with this ?

[ArmandV]

I have a Honda Insight (because it is economical), but also a Toyota Tacoma 4x4, BMW X3 (wife's) and a Jeep YJ that my son drives. I am building a Hummer H1 replica.

What I really want is something with a V8 and silly amounts of power. It just isn't practical, I don't have the cash, and where would I park it?

In the US, GM still holds the largest market share with 24%, Toyota is second at 16% and Ford is third at 14%. Japanese cars are not outselling American cars in the US, and many of the foreign cars here, especially the semi-domestic Daimler Chryslers sport beefier motors, or are SUV designed specifically for our market.

And gun ownership: Necessity has nothing to do with it. In LA or NYC it is as likely to be a liability as an asset. Protection is only one reason to own a gun, and not always the best reason.

And granted, you may not have said American officials explicitly, but since the thread is about an American politician and his choice of what book to take an oath on, it isn't a difficult inference to make.

I was actually shocked to see a late model Mustang in Ginza (driven by a Japanese lady) in Ginza last April. Outside of Japanese cars, the only non-Japanese cars I've seen in Japan are Mercedes.

[sabro]

But GM has slipped these last times and they are in trouble, just as Ford is. Absolutely true. The point was that your facts were wrong. Americans still buy American cars, SUV's, 4x4's and Pick-up trucks in ridiculous numbers. We love our cars. We love horsepower.

Well I did a paper on that and majority of the people that owned guns sited self-protection as the reason. And if you're not a hunter or gun enthusiast why have one ? Just cuz it's in 2nd amendment ? also probably true, but I said it wasn't the best reason, not the most popular. There is a difference. We love our guns. ( I no longer own guns, except for paintball)

And so what's wrong with that ? I'll say it now, american official explicitly, what does me not being American have to do with this ?
Absolutely nothing. What is wrong with Americans expressing that they hate arguing American civics/politics with Europeans? Seems fair to me. Express yourself about our matters all you like, but expect to get either ignored at best or called out on it.

[Duo]

Absolutely true. The point was that your facts were wrong. Americans still buy American cars, SUV's, 4x4's and Pick-up trucks in ridiculous numbers. We love our cars. We love horsepower.
also probably true, but I said it wasn't the best reason, not the most popular. There is a difference. We love our guns. ( I no longer own guns, except for paintball)

I'd say is also a comfort and logistics thing....American cars are usually bigger than European and japanese cars...when a Hummer drives around in a European city it will surely have a hard time parking and fitting in some narrow one way streets.


Absolutely nothing. What is wrong with Americans expressing that they hate arguing American civics/politics with Europeans? Seems fair to me. Express yourself about our matters all you like, but expect to get either ignored at best or called out on it.

How is that fair ? That's cultural chauvinsim. My opinion and only my opinion should matter, the individual shouldn't be targeted. Like I said who could you know who's american and not if it wasnt for the certain details which can be hidden ?

[sabro]

How often do the Americans in this forum ever interpose their opinion about Belgian affairs? Probably not too often since 1945.

Now if Belgium had oil, we might care more.

[Goldiegirl]

I own a gun because I can.

[sabro]

I like to shoot targets. But my eye sight is not very good. A time comes when your skills begin to decline. I don't hunt- I went once and cleaning game isn't my thing. I miss the historical WWII guns, particularly an M1 and Colt 1911.

Now I just play paintball. Hunt down the humans. Spatter them up. We all go home bruised, but alive.

[Duo]

I own a gun because I can.

Ok.... I can beat up little kids...but that doesnt mean I do it.... what kinda reasoning is that.

I like to shoot targets. But my eye sight is not very good. A time comes when your skills begin to decline. I don't hunt- I went once and cleaning game isn't my thing. I miss the historical WWII guns, particularly an M1 and Colt 1911.

Now I just play paintball. Hunt down the humans. Spatter them up. We all go home bruised, but alive.

Actually I always wanted to do that... paintballing I mean, it looks like very fun and I could hurt my friends with an excuse :p
Is funny I never really was curious or got the urge to try shooting a gun...despite all the movies and all that,,,but I'd like to try out a japanese sword, that for sure, cut up some of those fake hay targets, should be fun

[sabro]

Duo, I actually enjoy hearing what Europeans think of our issues. It is one of the reasons why I come to these forums.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Random thoughts on the topic as it as progressed

I have never been able to understand the need for excessive power under the hood in America (referring to automobiles). I always thought of cars and what not as a means to either get from one place to another or move things from one place to another. Nothing more.

As far as guns are concerned, I think they should be much more regulated than they are. I don't think average people should just be able to walk off the street and buy one, even if they have to wait, etc., etc. I understand that most criminal elements do not obtain their guns legally, but I think that the pool of available guns should be much smaller than it is today. (In other words, don't make so many damn guns in the first place!)

I used to have a BB gun, and I used to shoot at small game (very small. Squirrels and chipmunks and crows and stuff). It was fun until I started hitting stuff and had to clean up the mess.

I remember playing "cowboys and indians" and the Cold War variant "Kill the Commie ". Of course it was with toy guns, but it was only a game for me. I never actually wanted to own a real gun.

The irony of people on a forum primarily geared towards foreigners commenting on Japan complaining about a European commenting on their own country is mind-numbing. It's really quite amusing! I'm glad that it's been able to stay civil! :p

[craftsman]

America, whether Americans or the rest of world likes it or not, holds great sway over the financial, social and political life of people in other countries. When things happen in America shock waves head out to other countries - so I don't think it unreasonable for non-Americans to make comments about the internal affairs of America.

I often find that people outside my own country are able to see things for what they are, without the cultural baggage that sometimes blinds us as to the truth. It's easy to get emotional and blank them - 'how dare they talk about my beloved country and culture' - but more difficult yet more rewarding to listen to them and see if there are any insights to be had.

[Index]

'Address the argument, not the person', I say.

[sabro]

Ok.... I can beat up little kids...but that doesnt mean I do it.... what kinda reasoning is that.
Reasons to beat up little kids:
1. They make strange and sometimes funny noises.
2. It is easier than beating up adults.
3. The bigger the mismatch, the lesser the risk.
4. If you lose, you can blame it on your age and say thay you could have beaten him when you were 12.
5. They often have pocket electronics like iPods and Nintendo DS's
6. They may have lunch money.
7. You win, and the playground is your kingdom.
8. Good practice for real fighting.
9. If you lose, they usually don't run as fast.
10. Little kids don't drive. They can't follow you home and stalk you for months.

Duo if you ever come to California look me up. Perhaps we can play some paintball.

[craftsman]

I came across this quote when journalist Robert Sherman once asked George Bush Senior whether he recognised the equal citizenship and patriotism of American atheists. Bush responded:

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
(Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, Bantam Press, 2006, p.43)

So atheists are not citizens nor patriots. Oh God!

[Ma Cherie]

It's true, Americans are more religious than the Europeans. But I'm not saying this to be mean or anything, but I do feel that our politicians should keep their religious views to themselves and not allow it to interfere with their politics. Just recently the state of Texas and Tennesse had passed a ridiculous law that says that pretty much says that anyone who doesn't believe in God shouldn't run for office. In my opinion it just means that Americans really aren't that accepting of diverse ideas. Just recently the first muslim congressman had been elected, while I think this is good to a point, because the Whitehouse needs more diversity in belief systems. But I wonder, will we elect an atheist? Why should a person's religious beliefs be a factor in determining whether he or she will be a good politician or not? I believe too many Americans make this a factor and we should move away from that.
When we're talking about "there should be more diversity in the Whitehouse" that diversity shouldn't include only race, it should include different ideologies, and other things as well.
I saw that quote craftsman, sadly there are alot of people who share that sentiment. :(

[sabro]

Lots of athiests have served in elected office. We have elected Muslims, Jews, Christians, both Protestant and Catholic, Mormons, Hindus, Pagans, and Satanists... to city, county and state offices and some to offices as high as Congress. People like to vote for people that they have something in common with, and that they feel represent their view of the world. Often religion is one important factor in their decision.