How Far Are You Western-ized ?

[Jiyuu]

One thing I hear from some people visiting Japan, is that Western-ization. One transformation under effects of another always corrupts, I'd not like friends from Western countries take this offensive.

A solid and rich culture is maintained by a traditionalist society to a degree. I have always seen the Japanese people being hard-working, attached to their culture hence traditions very closely, highly regarding virtues like respect, effort and peace.

Since my homeland is being torn apart by imported Western way of life, brands and the irrelevant loyalty created to them, totally corrupting TV programs and shows, the process of cultural genocide by being exposed to things we never had before due to our cultural bakground; I'm concerned about the same for Japan.

How do you, especially native Japanese friends see about the situation? Is it how you were or is there a change in progress that is disturbing ?

[Goldiegirl]

You can only be corrupted if you allow yourself to be. Being modern, having state of the art health care, plentiful choices, being (more) socially free to express yourself through religion, art, politics...hmm...I guess "westernization" isn't all that bad.

[Jiyuu]

You can only be corrupted if you allow yourself to be. Being modern, having state of the art health care, plentiful choices, being (more) socially free to express yourself through religion, art, politics...hmm...I guess "westernization" isn't all that bad.

As if one wouldn't be able to modernize without copying the Western way..As if Westernization worked out in so-called free Iraq..That's absolutely another topic.

Anyways, I'm not absolutely intending to be offensive here, and so I am looking for the same please. I have mentioned about the negative effects of imported lifestyles on comparably-conservative societies in my opening post. Health care, modernism, art and politics etc. are not monopolies of West. And actually, they are way off from what I was trying to reach here.

[yukio_michael]

I'm sorry, your country is being torn apart by more than Big Mac's and Levis jeans. You can't force a culture on another group of people, unless you are conquering them. You may not like it, but western influence is something that people want--- Every time a Burger King goes up in Bangkok, some hippie who reads The Beach too much complains that it's marginalizing Thai culture, which couldn't be less true.

Japanese people for the most part actively choose what they wish to import... Nobody is forcing them to be "more western", and if you go there, you'll see that by and large, they are still traditionally an Asian nation.

Being exposed to things that your government previously didn't expose you to is a good thing... Information is rarely harmful in and of itself, it's what you choose to do with it.

[tanuki otoko]

Actually I don't see how Turkey is torn apart. At least I know a lot of Turkish people who prefer living in modern Istanbul but in the traditional turkgerman quarters of Berlin or the Ruhrarea. And Turkey has been a modern state since Atatürk's reform anyways, hasn't it?

[mika_r]

this is part of globalization. it's a modernt phenomene. every country non-weternized sufferd it. exept of course those one who close their borders.


Definitions:
A number of definitions abound, but all generally note the increasing convergence of markets, economies, and ways of life across the world. A broad overview definition is that globalization is the worldwide process of homogenizing prices, products, wages, rates of interest and profits [2]. Globalization relies on three forces for development: the role of human migration, international trade, and rapid movements of capital and integration of financial markets.
The IMF International Monetary Fund stresses the growing economic interdependence of countries worldwide through increasing volume and variety of cross-border transactions ... free international capital flows, and more rapid and widespread diffusion of technology.
A less economic-focused definition from the Encyclopedia Britannica states that globalization is the "process by which the experience of everyday life ... is becoming standardized around the world."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization

[Jiyuu]

I'm sorry, your country is being torn apart by more than Big Mac's and Levis jeans. You can't force a culture on another group of people, unless you are conquering them. You may not like it, but western influence is something that people want--- Every time a Burger King goes up in Bangkok, some hippie who reads The Beach too much complains that it's marginalizing Thai culture, which couldn't be less true.

Japanese people for the most part actively choose what they wish to import... Nobody is forcing them to be "more western", and if you go there, you'll see that by and large, they are still traditionally an Asian nation.

Being exposed to things that your government previously didn't expose you to is a good thing... Information is rarely harmful in and of itself, it's what you choose to do with it.

Yup. You can't force one to wear only Levi's. It's his/her choice -brand loyalty that is. My question was directed at people, if there are any, who think that such aspects of populism hurts their culture.

I mean. Big Brother shows was not our thing. Eventually got imported. Such shows were the firestarters of the opium-izing TV shows which were followed by shows subliminally dictating "hit, fight, debate, do anything to get into the spotlight". Yeah, because there is a fight, there are people arguing furiously in front of the cameras, people watched it. 'Cause people wanted to watch it. But I think at least one person will agree with me on that what people want is not always what the right thing is.

And globalization, as mika_r gave a Wiki excerpt of, turns around the money -to which eventually any and every way is conceptually "acceptable", whether immoral or not.

tanuki okoto, actually you can not see how Turkey is torn apart socially without living here. Most of the nation is numb, has no sense to what's going on, bombarded with what they wanted. And the topic was about if you feel like such thing is happening in Japan as well.

Of course, there are internal factors acting as powerful as what I am talking about here. But you know, the topic is the corruption as a consequence of Westernization, if any.

And, by the way, yes Turkey is a modern state since Ataturk's reforms..And?..So what?

I think me and you are confused about which point is meant to be delivered. Maybe my fault.

[hideway]

Since my homeland is being torn apart by imported Western way of life, brands and the irrelevant loyalty created to them, totally corrupting TV programs and shows, the process of cultural genocide by being exposed to things we never had before due to our cultural bakground; I'm concerned about the same for Japan.?Corruption is such a subjective word. You only see it as corruption because you don't agree with the changes. I don't see how cultural exchange can be corrupting at any level, it isn't like "westerns" (I've always found that word funny)are spreading any disease on everyone else.

You just have to be more tolerant towards change. :-)

[Jiyuu]

Corruption is such a subjective word. You only see it as corruption because you don't agree with the changes. I don't see how cultural exchange can be corrupting at any level, it isn't like "westerns" (I've always found that word funny)are spreading any disease on everyone else.
You just have to be more tolerant towards change. :-)

Um, ah no, I'm not someone residing in a tent, riding horses and excelled at archery :D

If I'm unable to get even a simple answer about EU when I askabout it to a guy in expensive Levi's wear, having a hamburger in a McDonald's shop talking about the last night's Big Brother show with his friend; sorry, I can't help it, I can't love that change.

[hideway]

You don't have to love it, just accept it.

[Jiyuu]

You don't have to love it, just accept it.

I have edited my post for you :-)

...sorry, I can't help it, I can't accept that change.

[ludoNL]

Um, ah no, I'm not someone residing in a tent, riding horses and excelled at archery :D
If I'm unable to get even a simple answer about EU when I askabout it to a guy in expensive Levi's wear, having a hamburger in a McDonald's shop talking about the last night's Big Brother show with his friend; sorry, I can't help it, I can't love that change.
You're talking about corruption by western countries but your country doesn't need a western country for that. Are you forgetting all the problems your country has? You've haven't been denied access to the EU for nothing.

I think people always need a person or thing to blame for the problems around them.
And I agree with the person saying that changes only occur if they're wanted.

[Dr. J. M.]

Well what's so bad about westernization? If you don't like western products, don't buy them. If you don't like western lifestyle, don't life that way. Everybody has the right to decide for him/herself how they want to life.
(Apart from that, this cultural 'corruption' as you put is no one-way street. Or why else do you think there are so many Japanophiles all over the western world?)

[Jiyuu]

You're talking about corruption by western countries but your country doesn't need a western country for that. Are you forgetting all the problems your country has? You've haven't been denied access to the EU for nothing.
I think people always need a person or thing to blame for the problems around them.
And I agree with the person saying that changes only occur if they're wanted.

Half of Turkey's population does not want to enter EU. I have no intention to drag the discussion somewhere way off. After all EU is something I don't want to be a part of, just like the half of the nation. What government does, does not represent the mindset of the nation.

Sidenote: I'd like to know what kind of problems you know about Turkey in private please.

Well what's so bad about westernization? If you don't like western products, don't buy them. If you don't like western lifestyle, don't life that way. Everybody has the right to decide for him/herself how they want to life.
(Apart from that, this cultural 'corruption' as you put is no one-way street. Or why else do you think there are so many Japanophiles all over the western world?)

I was asking the ideas of native Japanese if there's something like that they feel the existence of, if so, were they happy with it or not. I still think that the most convenient response will come through them. I really don't want to turn this into a West-East fight.

[ludoNL]

Half of Turkey's population does not want to enter EU. I have no intention to drag the discussion somewhere way off. After all EU is something I don't want to be a part of, just like the half of the nation. What government does, does not represent the mindset of the nation.
Sidenote: I'd like to know what kind of problems you know about Turkey in private please.

Since this does have some reference to the topic at hand, I don't feel the need to discuss this in private.
1) Denial of Armenian genocide
2) Disregard towards Human Rights
3) Conflict over the internationally recognised Republic of Cyprus.

You say half your nation doesn't want to enter the EU, but Turkey is a democracy. "What government does, does not represent the mindset of the nation.". If this is the case, there is something very wrong with the political system in your country.

[Mikawa Ossan]

I'm curious: when you say Westernization, do you mean that as "Americanization" or "Europeanization" or a mix of the two?

[Elizabeth]

Well what's so bad about westernization? If you don't like western products, don't buy them. If you don't like western lifestyle, don't life that way. Everybody has the right to decide for him/herself how they want to life.
(Apart from that, this cultural 'corruption' as you put is no one-way street. Or why else do you think there are so many Japanophiles all over the western world?)
Some individual aspects of life are a matter of personal preference, product choices (although American brands and chains may be more available or economical) and style of housing for instance. Others are regulated on a larger scale, such as mandating Western clothing or the use of cars and other public transportation. And Japan isn't even a good example of colonization where an outside, imperial force has created change against the interests of many of the native people....

[Ma Cherie]

How do you define Westernization? Do you define it as a McDonald's being built on your block or do you define it as Western ideologies affecting your political system?


And I wouldn't be concerned about Japan, it seems that Japan embraces many aspects of Western culture.

[misa.j]

A solid and rich culture is maintained by a traditionalist society to a degree.
I think a traditional culture is still cherished and does exist in Japan. While the Japanese adopted lifestyle, policy, education, etc., from other countries in their own ways, there has been a strong stance to preserve a heritage among people. A tv would not be the best place to find it, though.

[craftsman]

Since my homeland is being torn apart by imported Western way of life, brands and the irrelevant loyalty created to them, totally corrupting TV programs and shows, the process of cultural genocide by being exposed to things we never had before due to our cultural bakground; I'm concerned about the same for Japan.

Your statement reminded me of an article by Ziauddin Sadar, editor and author, who was shocked at the rampant globalisation (Westernisation) when he returned to Singapore.

Globalization is now sold as the best chance for economic uplift of the excluded masses of the world’s poor. It marches forward by stripping them of all that civilizes them in their own tradition, history and cultural expression.

...to be successful economic empowerment requires ... naked entry into mass popular culture manufactured in America, recycled and parodied by pale imitation everywhere. Indeed, The End – of civilization as the peoples of the world have known it, lived it and cherished its richness and diversity.

Jiyuu, the worries you brought up are the same for countless countries battling to hold on to their own cultural values and traditions in the face of a globalizing juggernaught.

Japan however, being one of the major players in this corporate takeover and with a world-class economy, appears to assimilate changes much better than other often much poorer nations. But one only has to take a look at recent Japanese dietry habits to see that some changes no country can escape.

[Goldiegirl]

Westernization, globilization, whatever word you want to use is going to happen. It's not going to stop unless you close of the borders of your country, take away phones, computers, the Internet, television, radio, the printing press, and keep the intelligent people of your country afraid for their lives so the can't or won't speak up, or kick them out of your country...and the list goes on.

[craftsman]

To continue on from my last post (I ran out of time)...

What Hollywood makes in the global marketplace is more than just profit. It sells costly, high-production value, glossy programmes for discounted prices to the television networks of the world. The cost of bought-in programming is internationally regulated – the poorer the country the less they pay. So it is impossible for Third World countries to produce local programmes with such production values. Locally produced programmes look poor in comparison to imports and seldom attract advertising.

What is seen on TV takes on an educational meaning; it is the substance of which global success is made. So the children of the élite in newly emerging economies buy into and act out the lifestyle of the rich and dominant in the West.

Through television, advertising, movies and pop music they are force-fed a total lifestyle package. What matters is the look, the affectation, the cool; and each of these abstractions can be translated into a merchandising equivalent available at a nearby shopping mall.

The only real difference being that in Japan what most people see is mainly Japanese television, advertising, movies and pop music due to the heavy restrictions placed by Japanese companies to preserve their revenue.

[Jiyuu]

I see. So being the leading economy of the world, Japan either has to lead or be somehow a part of this "imported lifestyles" stuff.

And thanks to Japanese friends' explanations, it seems they have nothing to worry about. Glad, I'm relieved to have reached where the topic was supposed to from the start.

Since this does have some reference to the topic at hand, I don't feel the need to discuss this in private.
1) Denial of Armenian genocide
2) Disregard towards Human Rights
3) Conflict over the internationally recognised Republic of Cyprus.

1) Armenian Genocide never happened. Armenians were massacred in big numbers, but why? Because following the Ottoman-Russian war in the late 1800s (should be around 1870s), Russians used Armenians as a tool of rebellion and armed them in gangs. Tasnak Sutyan is the most famous of all.

I think you'll be surprised to hear that Armenians were called "Millet-i Sadika" (=The Loyal Nation) in Ottoman times. However, as the nationalism wave was revised and lit by exterior forces such as UK, France and Russia to knock down the "Sick Man of Europe", Ottomans that is, Armenians turned their backs on their lifetime neighbors.

Ottomans are still one of the leading figures, if not the top, of tolerance towards the non-Muslim. That's why in lands that were under Ottoman rule for years still talk their own language, still believe what they used to believe before Ottomans.

So it's just weird to accept that Turks had gone mad instantly and made an ethnic cleansing of Armenians.

Not every killing is genocide, the first thing you must know of all. Systematical killing of a racial, religious or cultural group is defined internationally as "genocide".

Tasnak Sutyan and other minor gangs were armed by Russians, later down in southern regions by the French, to terrorize the area. The result was awful. I have read documents where Russian soldiers tried to stop Armenians from their rebellious and terrible acts since it was completely inhumane and something one couldn't stand to watch.

I have read memories of a child watching how the Turkish lieutenant had given his promotion by having his shoulder skins cut and peeled to look like a rank indicator, his legs skin peeled off to look like pockets.. I have read how they gathered all women of one of Van's villages in the mosque and how they raped them so that women were walking..weird...

According to the Ottoman state archives, around 512.000 Turks were killed during Armenian gangs' massacres through the period longing from the Ottoman-Russian war to 1914. Did you ever hear that ?

Of course not. And that's where the lazy-*** Turks' mistakes start. We always ignored this problem like the plague, and it was like a snowball forming into an avalanche. Now it fell down on us at the threshold of EU.

Eventually, after Armenian's massacre of Turks, they were obliged to a "relocation" (=Law of Tehcir ). They were forced to move off down to Syria. But on their way to their destination the furious Turkish and Kurdish folk and soldiers did the same back to the Armenians. There is a loss topping a million. By the way, according to the last population count done by Ottoman state, the Armenians counted no more than 1.400.000. So the exaggeration and the plot of lies starting from 1.5 to 2 million are completely imaginary from the very beginning.

If there is an Armenian Genocide then there is a Turkish Genocide as well. I oppose the idea of a genocide, since it was not a systematical ethnic cleansing, but was an unfortunate act of avenging. I have debated around this issue for times and times, and I assure you one Armenian had the guts to accept the killing of Turks, unlike the Diaspora Armenians.

The real problem is that you've (non-Armenians) been shown one side of the medal, painting Armenians as a totally huffy-puffy innocent nation massacred in their homelands while the remaining survivors fled all over the world. And the biggest mistake is ours, by either denying the whole thing overlookedly saying "noone died" or ignoring the issue completely.

Finally I have to remind you that Armenia refused to join the invitation of Turkish prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, that was made in order to open up the historical archives of both sides and debate the matter, dated March, 2005.

May you have time, check this website whose webmaster is a businessman in USA who is unable to disclose his name since he's constantly threatened by the Diaspora Armenians.

www.tallarmeniantale.com

2) Human rights. Ah. Though it's not a severe issue anymore, though the scenarist of the notorious movie Midnight Express that painted Turks black for years admitted that everything was of his imagination, nothing is real; we have a developing democracy that was rocked several times by military coups. They happened when the political flaw was so big that the whole country was nothing but a plane of chaos. However a coup always puts the democratic level of a country at least 10 years back.

3) Cyprus is not somewhere only the Rum live. The northern part is called the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC), which is the state formed after the operation to save Turks being massacred by EOKA, the Rum organization that terrorized Turks living there before 1974.

Eventually Turks were saved. I have to point out that it was a systematical ethnic cleansing to get rid of Turks, so that the majority, if not all, would be Rum and Cyprus would lawfully belong only to them. However, Turkey saving his countrymen there was labelled the invader as if it was made out of boredom.

TRNC is living under economical embargoes since its birth, the state of the folk is not fine with life standards because of the export/import limitations. As long as TRNC is not recognized, Turkey will not hesitate to deny the Rum part of Cyprus. Because Cyprus is not only somewhere the Rum live.

All these happen because of that EU thing that was "put" on us. Most of the people, even those that favor it, do not know what EU means at all terms, what it will bring and what it needs. As far as it seems to me, that's my personal view, EU is something that we were offered but refused years ago, during Prime Minister and TRNC's savior Bulent Ecevit's governing. And now we're craving for it. What happens when you go for something you had refused before ? Think of any relationship. Can even be a matter of romance.

EU will take as more incentives as they can from us which does weaken our internal security. It may be proper and suitable for another state, but what EU demands and what they bring as rules during gameplay weirdly, are not things Turkey can handle. Being out of EU will benefit both sides, though as long as our government insists doing exactly what they want, EU will keep on grasping even more.

You say half your nation doesn't want to enter the EU, but Turkey is a democracy. "What government does, does not represent the mindset of the nation.". If this is the case, there is something very wrong with the political system in your country.

You're completely right. Political system, and its participants called political parties, none of them, offer a convincing bright future for the country. Since Ismet Inonu's death, the comrade of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, this country was always exposed to corrupted politicians and governments.

Been quite much, eh? I wanted to talk in private and that's why. This much of post will just de-rail the topic. :bluush:

[ludoNL]

1) You live in a country that has been systematically denying a genocide. You could have been indoctrinated from birth, for all I know. I'd like to believe that I live in a country in which an open and honest discussion about subjects like these is available. Most people and scientist in western countries, Russia and even a growing number of people in your country believe that this was indeed genocide.

2) So you agree that Turkey has a problem when is comes to Human Rights?

3)This is the first time I've read anyting about a massacre of Turks by the EOKA. The invasion of parts of Cyprus by Turkey was a cunning way to gain territory. Claiming to uphold the Treaty of Guarantee.

[Sirius2B]

Sorry, I will skip completedly the episode of Turko-Armenian history, and return to the original theme.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I will separate the terms "Modernization" from "Westernization".

Both Turkey and Japan are both "modernizing" since more than a Century ago... and I think is good...

Now, "Westernization" is a term with trick... who says if one country is "western" or not?

Look at the shameful game regarding the entrance of Turkey in Europe... speaking at convenience in terms of race and religion ("Europe as Christian Civilization...") when they so fit.

If well the material adventages in entering the E.U. cannot be overlooked... I feel like I want to tell Turkey... "say to them: Go to hell!... There is a lot of space for Turkey interests in Central Asia".

I repeat: It is a term with trick... they say that you are "westernized" if you, due your own work and whatever your culture, are rich and successful. On the other hand, Christian people like Russians will never become "westernized" until Corporations and polititians in rich countries says so.

See all that garbage about "Japan as a Westen Country"... if you are rich and successful, and well integrated in World Economy, doesn't matter that your deep history has nothing to do with a Western European, Greek-Roman, Judeo-Christian, Humanistic, etcetera, supposed cultural background that again, supposedly form the core of Western Civilization.

Why we don't simple say "You are in the club of economicaly successful countries".

Soon, even China one day may be "a Westen country".

I believe that such a term "Westernization" leads only to confusion, and some negative effects in traditional cultures. Maybe not everything traditional everywhere is desirable... but some things that have matured during centuries in a given place, should not be so easily changed for a bottle of Coke and a shirt with Mike Jordan.

I am myself, not "Westernized" and don't want to be, not now and probably not never.

Regards.

[macadamia_cocoa]

I don't think it's as much as a problem as everyone is making it out to be. Westernization and traditionalism can co-exist easily.

[Sirius2B]

Actually I don't see how Turkey is torn apart. At least I know a lot of Turkish people who prefer living in modern Istanbul but in the traditional turkgerman quarters of Berlin or the Ruhrarea. And Turkey has been a modern state since Atat�rk's reform anyways, hasn't it?

Why if so many Turks are living in Kreuzberg, and all other places, does Germany do not see an opportunity in the entrance of Turkey in the E.U.?
Certainly, one thing is the voting weight that Turkey will have... but then, Germany could be able to ally (theoretically) itself with Turkey like no other country.

It is bad that the USA sees here instead an opportunity weight more, gain more influence more in Turkey given current Germany's position.

But of course, are things very distant to me. I grasp them just superficially.
Ah! Although much USA influence in Turkey may prove difficult too... specially after these recently lovely Turkish marvels as "Polat Alemdar gegen das Vampirisches Reich" (my own title ;D ), und den Roman: "Stahlgewitter".
Regards. ;)

I don't think it's as much as a problem as everyone is making it out to be. Westernization and traditionalism can co-exist easily.

They should... and in fact, as an example, Japan did in my opinion wonders regarding that. But not everyone has that success.
Regards.

[Jiyuu]

1) You live in a country that has been systematically denying a genocide. You could have been indoctrinated from birth, for all I know. I'd like to believe that I live in a country in which an open and honest discussion about subjects like these is available. Most people and scientist in western countries, Russia and even a growing number of people in your country believe that this was indeed genocide.
2) So you agree that Turkey has a problem when is comes to Human Rights?
3)This is the first time I've read anyting about a massacre of Turks by the EOKA. The invasion of parts of Cyprus by Turkey was a cunning way to gain territory. Claiming to uphold the Treaty of Guarantee.

1) Mr. ludoNL, you're not the first one to defend that lie harsher than an Armenian. No one told me about, none of us was, neither at home nor at schools, what Armenian Genocide is all about. I've been researching for around 2 years on this issue. If someone is indoctrinated from birth, sorry, but it seems you and people like you, 'cause they can't stand the inexistence of Armenian Genocide in which way ever it is opposed -Intellectual or primitive. I've always said that: We are dictated to accept a lie.

Believe me. There are so many that say "You have killed them all! Accept it! You can not say anything!" (yes as blunt as this). Please don't be one of them. We have been introduced the European people being open-minded. Or is it the same as all people close themselves to anything when they do not want to hear? Literally Turkish saying "since it does not benefit his business" ?

People believe what they want to believe. This does not change anywhere. Let me finish this part about Armenian Issue with this quote:

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

Joseph Goebbels

2) We had worse. It's better. Though it's no nightmare scenario here, we still have a lot of room for improvement on the human rights matter. Do you think I'm a go-go-Turkey who came here to tell the good and deny everything bad about it ?

3) Really cunning way indeed. :okashii: Why do they have their own flags and own state then, there in the Northern part? Were the masterminds behind this cunning plan dumb enough not to claim it as a part of Turkey after the operation?

It does not surprise me what you don't hear about what ever is done to Turks. We have never been talented crybabies.

Whole old generation will tell you a lot what was happening those days in Cyprus. Ok ok. You don't want to know.. Ok. Nothing new..It was made up and indoctrinated as well..Ok..There you have it.. We had the best cunning plan of all, you should see how we are benefiting the Northern part of Cyprus indeed. We have been so over-prosperous since that filthy invasion that we have enough money to donate even to the Rum side of the island.

Treaty of Guarantee was intended to guarantee the guard Turk's lives there. And once it was needed, it was executed.

Sirius2B,

Ah that "Valley of the Wolves" series and the movie. It was a self-proclaimed victory after doing the same to US soldiers in the movie, what had actually been done to 11 Turkish soldiers in N. Iraq some time ago...For those who like VotW..Not me..I don't see such cheap nationalist any beneficial at all.

But for sure, it is a LED light of the reaction against USA. Several statistics lately proved that Turkey has the population that dislikes USA the most around the Middle East. Especially during and after N. Iraq invasion, several occassion granted the growth of this dislike even more. Personally I'm not a fan of USA's policy as well. Actually American way of policy always dragged the Middle East into chaos. They are now fighting against those they had raised to fight against Soviets during the Cold War, Mullahs to be specific, Osama was one of them. They never and ever bring peace to somewhere. But they love sticking their noses everywhere pretending to be doing so.

Anyways..

Um so, here it goes: Do Traditionalism and Modernism co-exist in Japan peacefully ?

[Dr. J. M.]

Sorry, I will skip completedly the episode of Turko-Armenian history, and return to the original theme.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I will separate the terms "Modernization" from "Westernization".
Both Turkey and Japan are both "modernizing" since more than a Century ago... and I think is good...
Now, "Westernization" is a term with trick... who says if one country is "western" or not?
Look at the shameful game regarding the entrance of Turkey in Europe... speaking at convenience in terms of race and religion ("Europe as Christian Civilization...") when they so fit.
If well the material adventages in entering the E.U. cannot be overlooked... I feel like I want to tell Turkey... "say to them: Go to hell!... There is a lot of space for Turkey interests in Central Asia".
I repeat: It is a term with trick... they say that you are "westernized" if you, due your own work and whatever your culture, are rich and successful. On the other hand, Christian people like Russians will never become "westernized" until Corporations and polititians in rich countries says so.
See all that garbage about "Japan as a Westen Country"... if you are rich and successful, and well integrated in World Economy, doesn't matter that your deep history has nothing to do with a Western European, Greek-Roman, Judeo-Christian, Humanistic, etcetera, supposed cultural background that again, supposedly form the core of Western Civilization.
Why we don't simple say "You are in the club of economicaly successful countries".
Soon, even China one day may be "a Westen country".
I believe that such a term "Westernization" leads only to confusion, and some negative effects in traditional cultures. Maybe not everything traditional everywhere is desirable... but some things that have matured during centuries in a given place, should not be so easily changed for a bottle of Coke and a shirt with Mike Jordan.
I am myself, not "Westernized" and don't want to be, not now and probably not never.
Regards.

You've got an interesting definition of what 'Westernization' is supposed to be. According to you every nation will be called 'Western' as soon as they reach a certain amount of wealth, regardless of cultural background . Well, that's as far as I am concerned wrong. Westernization is the adoption of Western values and Western culture. Therefore Japan is imho not part of the West and will never be. Neither will China. But South America which isn't that rich is considered Western by definition.

I will not comment on the EU thing because that's offtopic.
And I will not comment on Jiyuu's caricature of the Armenia incident, for the same reason I do not debate with Holocaust deniers: I don't debate with liars.

[Elizabeth]

They should... and in fact, as an example, Japan did in my opinion wonders regarding that. But not everyone has that success.
Regards.
In the case of Japan, this manifests itself by saying they should have a non-Western mentality, anti-Western bias and general hostility to foreigners....all of which are basically true. Not by design as much as by a deep seated awareness of and pride in the uniqueness, often misplaced, of their own culture.

It's true a lot of places, though, to a somewhat lesser extent I think. The desire for American products and lifestyle but strong reservations about importing its government and the individualism or materialism of its people. :souka:

[Dr. J. M.]

The desire for American products and lifestyle but strong reservations about importing its government and the individualism or materialism of its people. :souka:
It seems to that most Japanese are more materialistic than many Westerners.

[Elizabeth]

It seems to that most Japanese are more materialistic than many Westerners.
Yeah, everyone has to be the same so they have to have everything their friends have. But still I think social relationships are hugely more important to the well-being of most Japanese compared to Americans (and some Europeans) which is a very good thing imo. You can't say they'll never be a Western country though....

[Dr. J. M.]

Yeah, everyone has to be the same so they have to have everything their friends have. But still I think social relationships are hugely more important to the well-being of most Japanese compared to Americans (and some Europeans) which is a very good thing imo. You can't say they'll never be a Western country though....
Probably you are right about the social relations.
And yes, you're certainly right that I can't say never because noone knows for sure. But Japan becoming a genuine Western country is nonetheless pretty improbable.

[Elizabeth]

Probably you are right about the social relations.
And yes, you're certainly right that I can't say never because noone knows for sure. But Japan becoming a genuine Western country is nonetheless pretty improbable.
You can't say that so quickly or flatly. :relief: In terms of political and business governance, there is grass-root democratic opposition to the ruling elites of the post war that has been born just since the economic collapse of the early 1990's. Opinionmongering, public debate, plus a greater sense of personal freedom and outspokenness are becoming more and more accepted as the norm if not easily embraced. There will always be kimonos and caligraphy but the mentality is slowly becoming ever more similar to a so-called "Western" mindset or outlook on life.

[Jiyuu]

And I will not comment on Jiyuu's caricature of the Armenia incident, for the same reason I do not debate with Holocaust deniers: I don't debate with liars.

Meh..Fine buddy. Just don't over-dramatize the lies you have ben convinced to. I am well accustomed to this degree of Armenian Genocide fanaticism.

If only it was real so that I'd not hesitate to apologize.

Whatever, let's leave it here. Sorry for de-railing my own topic.

[Dr. J. M.]

You can't say that so quickly or flatly. :relief: In terms of political and business governance, there is grass-root democratic opposition to the ruling elites of the post war that has been born just since the economic collapse of the early 1990's. Opinionmongering, public debate, plus a greater sense of personal freedom and outspokenness are becoming more and more accepted as the norm if not easily embraced. There will always be kimonos and caligraphy but the mentality is slowly becoming ever more similar to a so-called "Western" mindset or outlook on life.
I guess there's a definition problem... Westernization as I define it includes (but is not limited to) foremostly the cultural adoption of Western values and so forth. Nevertheless even very Westernized countries may never become 'Western' as such, because for me these countries have to derive from the West. (So, unless all or the vast majority of the native Japanese are either killed off or driven out, Japan won't become a Western country...).
Therefore I hope Japan will remain an Eastern country (with or without Western mindset.) [But of course your definition is also valid and may include Japan as Western country (in the future)]
Meh..Fine buddy. Just don't over-dramatize the lies you have ben convinced to Same goes for you.
I am well accustomed to this degree of Armenian Genocide fanaticism As am I to Holocaust and other genocide deniers.

If only it was real so that I'd not hesitate to apologize. I guess Holocaust deniers would say the same.
Whatever, let's leave it here. Agreed.

[Jiyuu]

I guess Holocaust deniers would say the same.

Every soul is valuable and has the right to live. I feel the grief of loss around the 1 million Armenians in that "unfortunate act of revenge" (the way I described it above) and feel sorry for it.

The time will come and they will admit what they had done too, completing the remaining part of the mutual share of grief..

Closed.

[Sirius2B]

According to you every nation will be called 'Western' as soon as they reach a certain amount of wealth, regardless of cultural background .

What I wanted to say, is exactly the other way around. Read again... or correct me if my idea was expressed so confusedly that really not only you but everyone that read it will fail to understand what I wanted to express.

Well, that's as far as I am concerned wrong. Westernization is the adoption of Western values and Western culture.

This is a mild definition that actually may work somehow. But there is also the "strong" version, like...

Therefore Japan is imho not part of the West and will never be. Neither will China.

In a positive sense... having institutions and values that do not conflict with what we positively assume is "Westerness" (otherwise, Japanse culture will not will be so highly regarded in the West)... but its attractiveness and "Enlightment", so to speak, is not in the larger part results of what Westerners did or offered, as they maybe "Eurocentrically" maight think.
Regarding of what you said about this other area, "Latin America" ( :p )... well, here is an example of what I said about the recent hypocrecy of the term "Westernization".... look for example the books of Samuel Huntington (he theaches racism in Harvard)... saying that Latin America has a "Latin culture", and therefore it is not "Western" ( :p ).

(I wonder if Huntington has admirers in Argentina :( ).

In reality, his racist thinking makes no sense, and only reached notoriety for coincidence, with the events since 2001.

I wonder if there we come up with a definition of "Westerness" that is honest and not influenced by partial or politically motivated.

In any case... Latin America is a very diverse region. Effectively Argentina, Uruguay and parts of Chile, Brazil, Venezuela, etc. are populated from people of pure European ancestry and culture... whereas in Mexico, Peru, and other parts, its is ethnically and in great part culturally more diverse.

Regards.

P.S.

Yes, traditional Japanese Culture is highly regarded abroad and of course, inside Japan... which do not means that many Japanese are not pretty alienated with themselves as a result of "modernity", "westernization", or whatever we want to call it.

[Dr. J. M.]

What I wanted to say, is exactly the other way around. Read again... or correct me if my idea was expressed so confusedly that really not only you but everyone that read it will fail to understand what I wanted to express.
Yeah, I guess I got that wrong.
"Well, that's as far as I am concerned wrong. Westernization is the adoption of Western values and Western culture."
This is a mild definition that actually may work somehow. But there is also the "strong" version, like... "Therefore Japan is imho not part of the West and will never be. Neither will China."
I've pointed out that there's a difference between "Western country" and "Westernized country" =)
In a positive sense... having institutions and values that do not conflict with what we positively assume is "Westerness" (otherwise, Japanse culture will not will be so highly regarded in the West)... but its attractiveness and "Enlightment", so to speak, is not in the larger part results of what Westerners did or offered, as they maybe "Eurocentrically" maight think.
What is it then?
Regarding of what you said about this other area, "Latin America" ( :p )...
Sorry, Latin America is most commonly translated as "Süd-Amerika" in German which means literally "South America", of course "Latein-Amerika" exists as well but it is not used as often.
well, here is an example of what I said about the recent hypocrecy of the term "Westernization".... look for example the books of Samuel Huntington (he theaches racism in Harvard)... saying that Latin America has a "Latin culture", and therefore it is not "Western" ( :p ).
(I wonder if Huntington has admirers in Argentina :( ).
In reality, his racist thinking makes no sense, and only reached notoriety for the events since 2001.
Latin culture not Western? I fail to see the logic behind there... Roman and therefore 'Latin' culture is an integral part of Western culture.
I wonder if there if we come up with a definition of "Westerness" that is honest and not influenced by partial or politically motivated.
Almost no term is neutral in that regard. And as you see in this thread 'Western' is per se neither positive nor negative. It depends on the individual whether he or she likes it or not.

[Sirius2B]

Sorry, Latin America is most commonly translated as "Süd-Amerika" in German which means literally "South America", of course "Latein-Amerika" exists as well but it is not used as often... Latin culture not Western? I fail to see the logic behind there... Roman and therefore 'Latin' culture is an integral part of Western culture.

Ja, ich weiss schon... wie ist das Wetter im Hesse? ;)

Entschuldigen Sie... the truth is that I am just arriving from very confrontative forums and most of what I say, I say with "puns" and irony... and maybe a little bitterness... it will take a little (very little) to adjust to this more or less easy going and serious forum.

I say and then repeated "Latin" America, precisely to emphasize that there is "ignorant academics" (another irony!), that fail to see than Latin (understood as Roman) culture is one of the Roots of what is ment historicaly as "Western".

Haben Sie ein schoenen Tag... aber ich will wissen uber die Fahne bei deine Avatar... die habe ich vorher geshen ich glaube, aber jetzt erkenne ich sie nicht.

[KirinMan]

Could someone please educate me to as how genocide or ethnic problems in Turkey have anything to do with "westernization" of Japan?

Just about anyone could start making arguments or making their comments about this country and that and this thread would loose any sense of the topic that the OP placed here. As if it hasn't already.......:okashii:

If you want to talk about comparisons between Turkish culture and Japanese culture I guess that would be a more apprpriate subject line don't you think?

I personally came to read this thread because I was interested to hear what people's thoughts were about how they defined westernization in comparison to Japan. Needless to say I was disappointed at some of the content so far and a bit surprised that it hasn't been brought back into line.

Back on topic here.....

I reiterate the question by Mikawa san and ask the same thing here
when you say Westernization, do you mean that as "Americanization" or "Europeanization" or a mix of the two?

There is much in the west that I personally would love to see adapted into everyday life here in Japan. I give one example here, more individuality and wanting to strike out and do things for oneself. That is one thing that I admire about many westerners in comparison to Japanese and their sense of community and in keeping the "wa" and not rocking the boat. Unfortunately I can only generalize here, which isnt fair because their are of course exceptions to every case.

Westernization is not just about economics imo, it is also an acceptance and intermeshing of cultures. There is much about Japan and the Japanese that I would love to see the west emulate as well. That I suppose is a different topic though.

[Jiyuu]

Could someone please educate me to as how genocide or ethnic problems in Turkey have anything to do with "westernization" of Japan?

Sorry. Though I asked ludoNL to talk about the issues he brought about Turkey in private, he said that he did not feel the need to talk it in private and mentioned about them here. That's why I replied, distracting the whole topic to somewhere that has nothing to do with the purpose of this topic. I should have replied him in private. My bad. Sorry.

So please keep up with the discussion, I'm curiously following the ideas brought up. Arigatou gozai-masou.

[gaijinalways]

As noted earlier, there is often confusion about what Westernization really is versus disliking rampant mass consumerism of Western (or other) goods. Of course, we could blame Western culture for introducing mass consumerism, but it is hardly a private preserve of Western countries now.

As to Western values, even here it is not always clear, but of course democracy, and equal rights were introduced, even though these don't exist in their pure forms in any country today. Some other values are difficult to evaluate as Western as Western countries differ in some values and aspects. France is different from England, which is different from America. It's difficult to isolate and identify what those values are.

[KirinMan]

As noted earlier, there is often confusion about what Westernization really is versus disliking rampant mass consumerism of Western (or other) goods. Of course, we could blame Western culture for introducing mass consumerism, but it is hardly a private preserve of Western countries now.
As to Western values, even here it is not always clear, but of course democracy, and equal rights were introduced, even though these don't exist in their pure forms in any country today. Some other values are difficult to evaluate as Western as Western countries differ in some values and aspects. France is different from England, which is different from America. It's difficult to isolate and identify what those values are.

My point is first one has to define what "westernization" is for it to be compared to Japan or any other "non-western" country. I don't want to come across racially biased here, but for lack of a better term in my mind at least, when many people think of western countrIes and western culture they think of "white" or should I say "caucasian" culture.

Like gaijinalways wrote here whose country are you going to use as the definitive western country or western values.
I would like to know what a Japanese person thinks about this, or who they think of when they think about "seiyo-jin"

[Sukotto]

I'm only MID-Westernized :lol: :buuh: :evil: :sing: "Sau-cer, Saucer..." (anime joke)

[Sukotto]

Latin culture not Western? I fail to see the logic behind there... Roman and therefore 'Latin' culture is an integral part of Western culture.


It's a way to re-divide people into groups.
They're always at conflict with one another, dontcha know.
Because they disagree with some sort of bogus "Washington concensus" or something, they are potential enemies.
They just couldn't let the cold-cuts war end could they?



(I wonder if Huntington has admirers in Argentina ).

Is that as in : Operation Paperclip, South American Nazis, the dirty wars, the Ford Falcon, and many "disappeared"?

[undrentide]

Like gaijinalways wrote here whose country are you going to use as the definitive western country or western values.
I would like to know what a Japanese person thinks about this, or who they think of when they think about "seiyo-jin"

I think we use the word 欧米化 oubeika (Europe/America-nization) when talking about "westernization". 西洋化・西洋人 seiyouka/seiyoujin used to be used commonly in the past, maybe in Meiji and Taisho, or early Shouwa, but now 欧米化・欧米人 are far more commonly used.
And from these words, America (which normally means the United States in Japan) and Europe come to our mind. I think its connotation is the same about the word 西洋 seiyou.

[Dr. J. M.]

Ja, ich weiss schon... wie ist das Wetter im Hesse? ;)
Entschuldigen Sie...
Das Wetter ist zu mild für diese Jahreszeit, morgens häufiger Nebel aber dafür scheint mittags die Sonne. Achja, ich bin auch der Auffassung, dass Duzen angebrachter ist als Siezen, zumindest in Foren wie diesen. ^^
the truth is that I am just arriving from very confrontative forums and most of what I say, I say with "puns" and irony... and maybe a little bitterness... it will take a little (very little) to adjust to this more or less easy going and serious forum.
I say and then repeated "Latin" America, precisely to emphasize that there is "ignorant academics" (another irony!), that fail to see than Latin (understood as Roman) culture is one of the Roots of what is ment historicaly as "Western". I see.
Haben Sie ein schoenen Tag... aber ich will wissen uber die Fahne bei deine Avatar... die habe ich vorher geshen ich glaube, aber jetzt erkenne ich sie nicht. Danke, gleichfalls. Die Flagge bei meinem Avatar ist einfach nur die Landesflagge des Bundeslandes Hessen. Die Farbkombination ist aber auf der Welt relativ beliebt, z.B. hat Polen dieselben Farben nur umgekehrt und die Indonesische Flagge ist sogar identisch.
My point is first one has to define what "westernization" is for it to be compared to Japan or any other "non-western" country. I don't want to come across racially biased here, but for lack of a better term in my mind at least, when many people think of western countrIes and western culture they think of "white" or should I say "caucasian" culture.
So, how broad is "white" or "caucasian" defined by you? Does it include Arabs? Semites? Hispanics? Slavs? Or is it limited to Aryans?

[Sirius2B]

Das Wetter ist zu mild für diese Jahreszeit, morgens häufiger Nebel aber dafür scheint mittags die Sonne. Achja, ich bin auch der Auffassung, dass Duzen angebrachter ist als Siezen, zumindest in Foren wie diesen. ^^

Danke, gleichfalls. Die Flagge bei meinem Avatar ist einfach nur die Landesflagge des Bundeslandes Hessen. Die Farbkombination ist aber auf der Welt relativ beliebt, z.B. hat Polen dieselben Farben nur umgekehrt und die Indonesische Flagge ist sogar identisch.

Ja, vielen dank für die Auskunft... :p

[/QUOTE]So, how broad is "white" or "caucasian" defined by you? Does it include Arabs? Semites? Hispanics? Slavs? Or is it limited to Aryans?[/QUOTE]
The question was not addressed to me... but I want to participate too: Yes, we have here another ambiguous term, such as "whiteness" that easily could be subjet to debate.

It is curious that in nowadays Russia, for example, the term "Caucasian" inmediately brings to mind not very positive attributes, and Russian "skins" chase them in Moscow subway, same as the like Asian looking, or dark skinned people.

By "Aryans"... do we mean people of "nordlich" appeariance... or we are meaning Iranians or high castes in India??

(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????) :p

And for US Elites (that supposely do not exist), the children should marry, if no option, with "White" European people... for that "French and Germans of the South are swarthy... but not the Swiss!!"...

Hispanics (specially Mexicans) in the USA cannot be white, not even for the Blacks, although they come in a variety of colors too. ;)

Oh!! And I forget that in the USA (to close the subjetct) Jews could be Nazis too... although the "bad Nazis" want to kick them out their organizations in recent times.

Arabs also come in a variety of colors... their fate and treatment they receive, depends more or less of $$$$... be it in Marseille or New York.
Regards.

[Dr. J. M.]

do we mean people of "nordlich" appeariance... or we are meaning Iranians or high castes in India??
I mean nordic people (It's like with the swatiska, even though the term "aryan" and the swatiska had originally other meanings, today they are most commonly associated with the white people and the nazis, respectively.)
And for US Elites (that supposely do not exist), the children should marry, if no option, with "White" European people... for that "French and Germans of the South are swarthy... but not the Swiss!!"... Oh well... The USA have the brightest people in the world but also the dumbest. [They also got the fittest people in the world and the fattest! A land of contrasts and superlatives.] Therefore it's surprising that those who think of southern Germans being swarthy even know that Switzerland, France and Germany are all European...
Hispanics (specially Mexicans) in the USA cannot be white, not even for the Blacks, although they come in a variety of colors too. ;) That's why they're called "hispanics" ;) [But I also think it depends on the degree on education. I dislike generalizations.]
Oh!! And I forget that in the USA (to close the subjetct) Jews could be Nazis too... although the "bad Nazis" want to kick them out their organizations in recent times. I doubt that, Jews could never be real Nazis unless they are suicidal and kill themselves.
Arabs also come in a variety of colors... their fate and treatment they receive, depends more or less of $$$$... be it in Marseille or New York.
Regards. Nah, I guess that's too much of a generalization, there are always xenophobic morons who judge others based on skin-color or descent and don't care about wealth.
Ja, vielen dank für die Auskunft...
Gern geschehen =).
"für"? Anscheinend kann dieses Forum keine Umlaute anzeigen. :p

[KirinMan]

So, how broad is "white" or "caucasian" defined by you? Does it include Arabs? Semites? Hispanics? Slavs? Or is it limited to Aryans

Let me be more specific, I think that when I discuss the west with Japanese people many, probably most, but not all, think of the west as caucasian.

Caucasian means just that nothing more nothing less.

[aaltunn]

1) You live in a country that has been systematically denying a genocide. You could have been indoctrinated from birth, for all I know. I'd like to believe that I live in a country in which an open and honest discussion about subjects like these is available. Most people and scientist in western countries, Russia and even a growing number of people in your country believe that this was indeed genocide.
2) So you agree that Turkey has a problem when is comes to Human Rights?
3)This is the first time I've read anyting about a massacre of Turks by the EOKA. The invasion of parts of Cyprus by Turkey was a cunning way to gain territory. Claiming to uphold the Treaty of Guarantee.

Dear ludo,

if you have any judgments about Cyprus you should have studied all details.

EOKA was an organization trying to perform the ENOSIS -the plan of unifying cyprus to Greece-disregarding the turkish residents-generally fighting british as well as turks

EOKA-B was an terrorist organization who massacred many Turks brutally.They were backed up by the Junta of Greece who were in power from 1967 to 1974 -Makarios named them as terrorists and grave diggers of enosis because they were so brutal -

see the link with photos - murder of civilian turks :

http://www.geocities.com/t_volunteer/cyprus/photo1.htm

The EOKA-B who already infiltrated to the police and the national guards overthrew the Makarios government.Makarios flew for his life and Turkey landed on cyprus making the Junta collapse in Greece.

So brutal massacres againts took place againt turkish people of cyprus starting from 1955 - to Avoid such happenings UN Troops was sent to Cyprus at 1963 but the un that did not work.

see the secret AKRITAS PLAN - planning of the massacre and total annihilation of turks in cyprus and the ways of acting easily - was printed at 21 April 1966 at PATRIS Newspaper - perhaps some Greek people with common sense just revealed the plan - see the english link

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/akritas_plan.htm

the massacres done in Cyprus were well documented by western press - you should be able gather information easily - and you should do as well before making such judgments.

thanks

[ludoNL]

You might not have noticed, but a) I left this discussion completely a while ago. b) The discussion has been shifted back to the actual topic.

[aaltunn]

You might not have noticed, but a) I left this discussion completely a while ago. b) The discussion has been shifted back to the actual topic.

yes - sorry for that -

i did not want to abuse the actual topic

but please be sure you have studied details before making major judgments

thanks

[Aerain]

If by "Western-ization" you mean materialism then I would agree with you, it does corrupt. But it is not like as if the japanese culture will completely disappear because we eat american food and watch american movie. I don't know if anyone would agree, but people these days forget about our most fundamental values; family, love, friends because we want to have the best clothes, bigger house, faster cars etc... That is something that really depresses me these days...

[AladdinSane]

I think westernization is not a threat as long as the people are educated, and the native culture and lifestyle are preserved. That way the desired elements of the West can be integrated into the local culture without causing cultural erosion. Japan seems to be quite successfull in that, and unfortunately the sort of people who immerse themselves in material things (like tv shows, and shopping) and rarely think about greater matters exist everywhere in the world. This is not caused by westernization but by insufficient education or lack of education altogether, and it is commerce that takes advantage of that problem. So, I don't think there is a threat for Japan in particular.

[Sukotto]

East, West, Orient, Occident

the late Edward Said wrote a book titled "Orientalism" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_%28book%29)
I've not read it but wikipedia has this to say:

"In his book Said suggests that all discourse, particularly discourse about other cultures, is inherently ideological.

What Said attempts to show is that this discourse actually creates (rather than examines or describes) a palpable divide between East and West."

Said wrote:
"My whole point about this system is not that it is a misrepresentation of some Oriental essence ― in which I do not for a moment believe ― but that it operates as representations usually do, for a purpose, according to a tendency, in a specific historical, intellectual, and even economic setting" (p. 273).


Another book, this one in which I am currently reading "Iran A People Interrrupted" by Hamid Dabashi often quotes Said and
also writes that the divide between "tradition" and "modernity" is also an artificial creation.

And uses a phrase "Colonial Modernity" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamid_Dabashi)
which refers to the paradoxical reception of the European project of Enlightenment modernity by the rest of the world, whereby non-Europeans are assigned subjectness precisely at the moment of the denial of their historical agency.[6] In his essay "For the Last Time: Civilizations", he has also posited the binary opposition between “Islam and the West” as a major narrative strategy of raising a fictive centre for European modernity and lowering the rest of the world as peripheral to that centre.[7]

Apparently the Middle East as well as East Asia, and points in between have historically been called "the Orient". In the US it is primarily East Asia. Said writes from the perspective of the Middle East, but the argument is the same.



Some would label me "anti-american".
For ex: I am not proud that I am rich (relatively) precisely because of the rest of the world's poverty and in no small part policies of the US on behalf of transnational corporations.
So maybe they label me "anti-western" as well.
It's an ideological construct.

[Sirius2B]

One thing I hear from some people visiting Japan, is that Western-ization. One transformation under effects of another always corrupts, I'd not like friends from Western countries take this offensive.
A solid and rich culture is maintained by a traditionalist society to a degree. I have always seen the Japanese people being hard-working, attached to their culture hence traditions very closely, highly regarding virtues like respect, effort and peace.
Since my homeland is being torn apart by imported Western way of life, brands and the irrelevant loyalty created to them, totally corrupting TV programs and shows, the process of cultural genocide by being exposed to things we never had before due to our cultural bakground; I'm concerned about the same for Japan.
How do you, especially native Japanese friends see about the situation? Is it how you were or is there a change in progress that is disturbing ?

AladdinSane
I think westernization is not a threat as long as the people are educated, and the native culture and lifestyle are preserved. That way the desired elements of the West can be integrated into the local culture without causing cultural erosion. Japan seems to be quite successfull in that, and unfortunately the sort of people who immerse themselves in material things (like tv shows, and shopping) and rarely think about greater matters exist everywhere in the world. This is not caused by westernization but by insufficient education or lack of education altogether, and it is commerce that takes advantage of that problem. So, I don't think there is a threat for Japan in particular.
Not only to swallow the pill of "Westerness" as a goal is stupid and corrupting... but also, dangerous.
The "West" is preparing "Regimen Change" in Turkey... so watch out, and spread this message among your friends...
(You could see the whole context in the www.atimes.com, under the series "Germany the Re-engineered Ally").
Refitting Turkey for its proper role
One of the most interesting policy initiatives of the new German-French tandem may appear to be a sideshow but is, in fact, emblematic of the shape of things to come: replacing the EU horizon for Turkey with one more fitting for an oriental strategic asset.
Merkel and Sarkozy are now jointly leading an EU-wide coalition dead set against making good on the decades-old promise for the integration of Turkey into the EU as soon as it is able to implement the acquis communautaire (total body of EU law). With the election of Sarkozy the "open-ended" accession negotiations have no chance of remaining open-ended and with his help Merkel will be able to outmaneuver her Social Democratic baggage while still insisting on negotiating with Turkey in good faith.
For Merkel, Sarkozy and their civilizational warriors, Turkey has no European "vocation", for cultural, Christian, and occidental reasons. Merkel promises, instead, a "special relationship" and Sarkozy proposes to sponsor a "Mediterranean community", anchored on Turkey, Israel and Morocco, as a geopolitical barrier against African immigrants, Islamic fundamentalists, and as an additional venue for Israeli ambitions.
The question, though, is how to make Turkey give up its EU aspirations and fall into line with whatever plans are made for it. And the main problem is, in fact, that Turkey's most committed Europeanists are to be found in the moderately conservative and moderately religious center-right Justice and Development (AKP) party, the first governing party after World War II which is fairly clean, rather competent economically, and tenaciously digging at the immensely corrupt and criminal "deep state": the conglomerate of politicians, military intelligence, special police squads, and their legions of cut-outs, cut-throats, and patsies, the Turkish mafia, Grey Wolves (ie, rightwing terrorists), feudal landowners, and associated business ventures. This government is trying to drain a swamp in which German intelligence was up to its knees since the days of its being tasked with chaperoning the "Trident" intelligence coordination between the Turkish, Iranian, and Israeli intelligence services.
Turkey's "deep state" has been (and, to some degree, still is) the enabling environment - and with Israel, the Eastern Mediterranean hub - for the interbreeding of intelligence, the security business, terrorist groups for hire, and mafia operations. It has produced the strangest, rather frightening, but most lucrative, hybrids between black operations, subversion, targeted killings and kidnappings, and the whole panoply of the drug, protection, organ harvesting, black medical research and pharmacology, the emigration, slave labor, weapons and technology, counterfeiting, money laundering rackets. Joined to Israel's netherworld, its reach extends from the Arab countries to Africa, from Russia and the CIS to western and Central Asia, and, of course, to Europe.
This is what the Turkish government - with a strong popular mandate - is trying to reform in order to conform to the requirements of EU membership. The AKP is, for good reasons, strongly committed to the EU: by itself it would be quite unable to make its sanitation mandate work, whatever the strength of its electoral base. It is only via the EU that it can even approach the holy of holies, the constitutional Praetorian prerogative of the Turkish military. Its defenders - the parties of the secular "White Turks" (ie, the urban elites) who regard the reforms the EU accession process imposes as endangering their ownership of the state - are precisely those Sarkozy and Merkel are relying on to derail Turkey's EU prospects.
The White Turks' "deep state" is already swinging into action: from a spate of high-profile murders with an ostensible "fundamentalist" background, to the threat of a military coup d'état, from the demonstrations with the malicious slogan "neither
Continued 1 2 3 4 5
... Sharia, nor putsch" (trying to taint the AKP with the fundamentalist brush), to the the collusion between acting President Ahmet Necdet Sezer and the Constitutional Court (sworn to uphold the military prerogatives) in provoking a constitutional crisis to block the election of the popular Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul to the presidency.
Since Turkey's main Western allies are decidedly unhappy with the successes of reform and the growing self-confidence of the government of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Merkel and her cohorts are engaged in a rather vicious game of delegitimizing Turkish aspirations through veiled threats and humiliations. It is not only the moving goal posts game that Turkey has to negotiate.
It is the kind of cued European discussion that says in effect, "We will make sure to prevent the EU membership of Turkey" (whatever the domestic repercussions in the several million strong Turkish community in Germany), that is designed to coerce the AKP into giving up. There is also the tidy side-payment to consider, namely, the domestic delegitimization of the AKP and the reempowerment of the deep state, now represented by the Nationalist Movement (MHP) party and Turkey's oldest political party, the Turkish Republican Party (CHP) that has served Western geopolitics oh-so-well.
Tying the Turkish government into knots, the US government and many of the European media are lauding the constitutional vocation of the Turkish military to protect the secular state (implying again that the AKP is intent on turning Turkey into a sharia state) while, at the same time, European politicians raise the specter of the threat of military intervention in Turkish politics as proof that Turkey is not EU material. In the same fashion, "high European officials" do background briefings on how a military campaign against the PKK in Iraq would strain NATO and end Turkey's accession negotiations because it would be proof that the Turkish government - which is against intervention - cannot control its military. It is a perfidious set-up because the US and Israel (with German support) are doing everything to strengthen and use the Iranian PKK network for its proxy campaign against Tehran.
But why are these forces fighting so hard to terminate Turkey's EU prospects?
The answer lies not in the new conservative/right-wing obsession with occidental identity politics or with the enlargement blues. The US was denied the use of Turkish territory for attacking Iraq from the north; Turkey insisted, instead, on its Montreux Treaty prerogative of refusing a permanent American naval squadron in the Black Sea. It has rather relaxed political, and high-growth economic relations with its neighbors, Syria and Iran. It has been accused of dragging its feet on the Nabucco gas pipeline, designed to bring Central Asian gas to Europe and to circumvent the Russian pipeline system.
It has, in fact, excellent political and economic relations with Russia while having gone out of the 1990s business of subverting the Central Asian republics. Furthermore, it angered Israel with its discreet contacts with Hamas and by cooling down the political scope of the military and intelligence relationship (as well as its attendant business opportunties). And it hurt powerful interests with a more serious engagement with Interpol.
In other words, the AKP government is striving to scale down the use of Turkey as a strategic platform for all sorts of mayhem, focusing instead quite successfully on regional trade and investment opportunities to maintain Turkey's economic growth - thus stabilizing a growing middle class of "black Turks". This approach, though, crimps US efforts to expand the strategic threat against Iran. Even more importantly, it limits American access to the Caucasus and Central Asia and hampers its plans for pulling the Ukraine, Georgia and Azerbaijan into a permanent and much more extensive military relationship.
In sum: though prudent enough to have accomodated the Turkish military's usual level of cooperation with Western (US, Israeli, and German) operations against its neighbors, it still disregarded the demands of the Western grand strategy. Its policies did nothing to help in the "great game" of turning the Caucasus and Central Asia into a lever to be used against Russia and China. Neither did the Turkish government do enough for the shorter-term payoff, ie, gaining control over Central Asian oil and gas. All of this did not win the Turkish government friends in the right places. It set itself up, instead, for some variant of a regime-change operation in which the campaign against Turkey's EU aspirations will play a pivotal role.
Though the Turkish military is always good for a coup d'etat, it may be difficult to do it this time without an inopportune level of violence ("Chileanization") since the AKP won the elections resoundingly. There are other options available that might teach the forces of Turkish reform lessons about red lines and overreaching. A short walk down memory lane might illustrate what is possible.
One of the most successful - and "blackest" - of US-British "black operation" against a Western, albeit neutral, country was carried out in first half of the 1980s. In 2000, none other than Reagan's secretary of defense, Caspar Weinberger, declassified it in an interview with Swedish TV in the context of an investigation into the affair of the "Soviet submarines".
Then Swedish prime minister Olaf Palme was a real thorn in Western flesh. Apart from his backing for the Afrincan National Congress and the Palestine Liberation Organization, he was very vocal in his criticism of the increasingly dangerous American confrontation policies towards the Soviet Union. His stance enjoyed widespread support within the Swedish population. This changed rather dramatically with the worldwide frenzy about "the Soviet aggression of neutral Sweden", when Swedish territorial waters were repeatedly "violated by Soviet submarines" and by landings of "Soviet special forces" on the Swedish coast. These "incursions" stopped with the still unresolved murder of Palme in 1986, despite two unsuccessful attempts to convict a man named Christer Pettersson for the crime.
With a pleased smirk, Weinberger confirmed that there was nothing Soviet in the violation of Swedish territorial waters (the Soviets "didn't have the capabilities"). There were, instead, routine exercises, "between the Swedish navy and the American and British navies and since they were routine, the Swedish admiral responsible saw obviously no need to inform his superiors or his subordinates about the nature of the "enemy".
It was, in fact, not quite a "regime change", but a joint US-UK operation together with the top brass of the Swedish navy and Swedish intelligence, conducted against the foreign policy of the Swedish government. Since then Sweden has been rather careful not to challenge American policies - with the exception perhaps of the very popular Foreign Minister Anna Lindh, in line to become the next prime minister. She was stabbed to death in 2003 by a mentally disturbed young immigrant.
At the time, such operations brought the world close to the brink of nuclear war. The Soviets understandably saw this as a crucial
indicator that the US was preparing its allies, and battling with a powerful peace movement, for nuclear preemption against the "increasingly aggressive" and "brazen" Soviet Union.
A variant of such an operation today, though sure to have its own blowbacks, would certainly not involve that kind of risk. It would also take into account that the Turkish military and intelligence are not as monolithic as they once were: there is kind of nationalist reaction to the easy contempt with which they are taken for granted. But it would change Turkey's political horizon for good: a policy subjected to a permanent "strategy of tension", countering democratic aspirations with the power of the deep state. And from a certain perspective, this is an eminently desirable outcome. It would make Turkey the grateful recipient of Sarkozy's idea of a Mediterranean community and Merkel's notion of a special relationship.
Please spread this exceprt among your friends.
Regards.

[tombo]

in my opinion, japanese people are not so westernized. Of course they too something strong from western countries but they really have their own way of life and this "westernization" is just convenient.

[FrustratedDave]

Oh crap... and I thought it was the other way around.:blush:

I hear lots of people taliking about "westernization", but what is this phenomen? I suppose the inffluence of Japanese or Chinese food in America ,Australia and Europe should be considered "easternization" ? How many sushi trains do you see these days? But, I don't see many people complaining about them, I wonder why that is? (driping with sarcasm)

Could it be that places like Europe, America ect , are more able to accept change in their society? Or is this the problem in itself?

Times change, people change, the world changes , whether it be for the better I do not know, but it is a fact and the sooner you realise that there is no big conspiracy to deprive a country of its values, the sooner you will realise that it is infact your own country or should I say people as a whole making these choices. Remember no one is forcing levis jeans or Mc Donalds down anyones throat, if they didn't sell they would not be there.

There are only a few things that is common to most countries and a big one is money, this is what makes the world go round.

[Murs]

Westernisation, is almost synonymous with materialism, well its a major part of it.

I think why westerner’s don’t complain about Chinese food or Japanese technology is because they don't, also consume Asian culture or values etc, only the convenient i.e. fast moving consumer goods.

Also I'd like the echo FrustratedDave in that its all mainly down to money, if Italy were the world power for over 50 years it will be their cultural exports that will in our faces, why? Because they have the financial backing to do so and exploit (general) ignorance.

[MadamePapillon]

Murs makes an interesting point. While some people have complained about the sudden influx of asian this and that, from anime to the astounding numbers of asian resturaunts you can find at any street corner, most people don't really care. Why? Because ultimately it's not changing the fabric of our society. Our values, customs and way of life remain the same even as we are being surrounded by asian influences.

On the other hand, asian countries have experienced an upheaval from the 'western invasion'. Governments have changed, ways of living, eating, thinking, even the way they get married is changing as they conform to a 'western' way of life.

I don't know why that is but it's ignorant to blame westerners for this change. We don't go to Japan and force them to eat at MacDonalds or get married in a white wedding dress or wear western name brands. They choose to do this out of their own free will. There are plently of countries that have stayed true to their own cultures and values even while being surrounded by foreign infulences. Asia is everywhere here in Canada yet we're not going out of our way to adopt asian customs and values.

What I'm wondering is, why, with all their rich cultural background is Japan so eager to put it aside in favor of copying the west (especially America), whereas we don't have half the history but are just fine to keep what we do have alive and well?

[kireikoori]

So, how broad is "white" or "caucasian" defined by you? Does it include Arabs? Semites? Hispanics? Slavs? Or is it limited to Aryans?
lol, there are Slavs who consider themselves Aryan.
http://www.last.fm/music/Aryan+Terrorism

Aryan was a term adopted by Nazis used to separate culture that was semetic in origin from Indo(Indian)-European culture. To my knowledge the first use of the term Aryan in this way was by Helena Blavatsky. Since the Nazi party was very anti-Semitic this was a useful term for them to separate their European culture from Semitic Jewish culture.
Plenty of people other than Scandinavians have used the word Aryan to describe themselves. There as Slavic Neo-Nazis as well as Japanese Neo-Nazis and Indian Neo-Nazis. Savitri Devi was Southern European Neo-Nazi and her husband was Asit Krishna Mukherji, a Bengali Neo-Nazi.

[Murs]

It's pretty sad that values liek the way you marry even, are being changed. Like I said already, it's imo down to mainly financial strength, thus making American and European things "cooler" to put it crudely.

[SushiShin]

everyone is a little bit westernized, but not FULLY Westernized!

nobody can't denies that he/she has something picked up of the West.

even i can't deny :relief:

わたしはばか:p

[Bucko]

I was disappointed when I first arrived in Japan how "westernised" it was. While I found their obsession a little flattering, in a way it was rather sad and pathetic. However, the more I got to know the country and the people, the more I realised that the restaurants and name brands and music was really just an outside shell, their true "Japaneseness" eventually shone through. In my opinion, in a certain way their obsession with all things western was kind of a reflection of their national character.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

Since my homeland is being torn apart by imported Western way of life, brands and the irrelevant loyalty created to them, totally corrupting TV programs and shows, the process of cultural genocide by being exposed to things we never had before due to our cultural bakground

I don't understand. You're from Turkey, aren't you ? Turkey is almost a Western country. In the antiquity, it was Magna Grecia (Greater Greece ?). Greece is a western country. Many people spoke Greek in Turkey until 1923. In the south of Italy where my family is from many people are Greek roots. It's the same in Turkey. If I feel Western, it is also because of my ancestors' blood and history. You should feel very western. In fact Turkish people are among the oldest westerners in the world ! You should be ashamed to be ashamed of western culture !!!

]I'm concerned about the same for Japan

Japan is fine. Nobody forces western culture on them.

I hear lots of people taliking about "westernization", but what is this phenomen? I suppose the inffluence of Japanese or Chinese food in America ,Australia and Europe should be considered "easternization" ? How many sushi trains do you see these days? But, I don't see many people complaining about them, I wonder why that is? (driping with sarcasm).

Haha ! :D Good point ! :cool: There are much more Asian restaurants here than McDonald's ! Yes, the West is becoming as much easternised as the East is becoming westernised ! That's globalisation ! Only Muslim countries are in a time-warp bubble. :relief:

[Murs]

A ke bono kane kotto, please read my first post regarding what you said about restaurants, let me know what you think.


On another matter, I think that "Western" really needs to be defined properly here. I think most in the west don't really have culture at all, rather just have behavioural traits but very little values apart from "free" speech etc. So westernisation=break down of own culture? as we in manly parts of europe and america lack culture.

[kireikoori]

To me terms like Eastern and Western have always been weird.
What's Western religion? Wikipedia describe it as Abrahamic religion, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
So then what is Norse, Celtic and other Pre-Christian European religion. Well...Danu in Celtic religion is the same as the Danu in Vedic religion. So perhaps pre-Christian Europe is Eastern religion-wise.

Eastern and Western are terms that are easy to say, and are thusly flung around without much thought, but are hard to define.

[Pachipro]

What I'm wondering is, why, with all their rich cultural background is Japan so eager to put it aside in favor of copying the west (especially America), whereas we don't have half the history but are just fine to keep what we do have alive and well?
Alot of it has to do with Hollywood and what they see in the movies and on TV and from music. As long as these parts of the US/European culture continue to pull in hundreds of millions of dollars worldwide, people will want to emulate them, not just the Japanese.

While not being a Christian and donning a white wedding dress and tux and getting "married" in a church, the Japanese consider themselves "cool" (kakuii) to be emulating western (US/European) culture as murs pointed out above.

If you live in Japan, how many times have you heard "kakuii" being said to a person who was dressed as a rapper, surfer, tennis player (even though they may have never surfed or played tennis in their life) or wore some other kind of western dress that is considered trendy? And we all know how important it is to be trendy in Japan. It's almost an obsession to be as westernized as possible.

Does it mean the Japanese are being westernized and losing their vast and storied culture?? I don't know, but it is kind of sad to see some of the Japaneseness being erased from Japanese culture. Most modern condos and houses today have but one, maybe two, Japanese rooms with tatamis. Back in the day it was common for the vast majority of people to dress in kimino on New Years Day, but there are less and less people wearing them vs the past.

Most Japanese today eat a western breakfast and forgo the more healthier Japanese one, but this has more to do with advertising. Still, it is taking a little more each day from the culture.

I am not familiar with the younger generation and how they live anymore, but to me the Japanese around my own age and my friends, although they may be westernized on the outside, are still very Japanese on the inside and have not changed over the years. They still follow tradition and culture and have a kind of disdain for the younger people that do not follow tradition by getting married in western wear in churches and live in western style houses and apartments and such and forgo the wearing of traditional dress during the holidays.

Maybe we can have some input from some of the younger generation of Japanese or westerners living for more than three years in Japan and living like a Japanese as to whether tradition and culture are still being followed.

[Bucko]

I don't understand. You're from Turkey, aren't you ? Turkey is almost a Western country.

Some would argue that Turkey is one of the most western countries in the world, with its extremely secular government, freedom of speech, and democracy. The stuff that the OP seems to be worried about isn't really "westernisation", but more saturation of American pop culture.

[Murs]

Like Pachipro said its not only Japanese, Turkish etc but pretty much every nation trying to emulate Hollywood. Having thought about it more in depth, I think it is quite understandable even, because those who lack much intellect tend to be of this sort. I believe that, perhaps, those people are so insecure about their own worth and qualities that they can cover it up with generic pop junk just to 'fit in'. But this has gone off on an psycology tangent so i'll leave it here.

[MadamePapillon]

Like Pachipro said its not only Japanese, Turkish etc but pretty much every nation trying to emulate Hollywood. Having thought about it more in depth, I think it is quite understandable even, because those who lack much intellect tend to be of this sort. I believe that, perhaps, those people are so insecure about their own worth and qualities that they can cover it up with generic pop junk just to 'fit in'. But this has gone off on an psycology tangent so i'll leave it here.

And isn't it ironic that while the rest of the world is eating up that crap there are so many people here that choose instead to listen to lesser known indie bands, watch quality foreign movies and shun the name brands in favor of their own styles because the awareness that hollywood is feeding us crap is growing.

[Geostigma]

People start emulating other cultures when they're bored with their own. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence as they say.

[caster51]

I can not still understand what " westernized" means...

it means clothes, food and house before 100 years ago ....?
"westernized" is an another sinocentrism?

Btw
I think Philippines is the most "westernized" country in asia

[FrustratedDave]

And isn't it ironic that while the rest of the world is eating up that crap there are so many people here that choose instead to listen to lesser known indie bands, watch quality foreign movies and shun the name brands in favor of their own styles because the awareness that hollywood is feeding us crap is growing.
IMHO, hollywood is only what you yourself make it out to be. A movie is just that , a "movie" nothing more nothing less.

Unless you start talking about Micheal Moore. This is one guy that loves reporting a one sided opinion. Eg, when someone is being interviewed...

Micheal moore: Sir what do you think of person A in reagrds to topic B?
Sir: Well , I think he is an absolute failure , but in regards to topic I will admit he did a great job.

What Micheal moore actually reports,

Micheal moore: Sir what do you think of person A in reagrds to topic B?
Sir: Well , I think he is an absolute failure ...

cut off tape here and there you have it, a total misconstrued display of the facts.

Anyway ,I liked what pachipro said too.

[Murs]

^Those roles are generally similar for the likes of CNN etc. Remember Bill O'Riliy telling the family member of 9/11 to shut up multipul times and pulling the plug on the interview when said individual questioned the USA's relationship with Osama. Lucky that was live or else wouldn't have made it onto TV.

[bakaKanadajin]

One thing I hear from some people visiting Japan, is that Western-ization. One transformation under effects of another always corrupts, I'd not like friends from Western countries take this offensive.
A solid and rich culture is maintained by a traditionalist society to a degree. I have always seen the Japanese people being hard-working, attached to their culture hence traditions very closely, highly regarding virtues like respect, effort and peace.
Since my homeland is being torn apart by imported Western way of life, brands and the irrelevant loyalty created to them, totally corrupting TV programs and shows, the process of cultural genocide by being exposed to things we never had before due to our cultural bakground; I'm concerned about the same for Japan.
How do you, especially native Japanese friends see about the situation? Is it how you were or is there a change in progress that is disturbing ?

I found the OP's original post to be extremely insightful and wanted to reply to it directly; forgive me if my answer is repetitive or doesn't concretely touch upon anything anyone else has said thus far.

In my opinion, Japan's traditions and way of life are both threatened and enhanced by Western culture. If you're a purist or a nationalist, then yes just about every foreign product, Western or Chinese or otherwise, that touches Japanese soil is a threat. People are eating burgers instead of Soba, drinking Coke instead of Itoen Apple Tea, and so on. However the Japanese have a gift for doing things their own way as well. It's hard to put your finger on it and define it clearly but maybe I can use an example.

The increase in convenience foods for example and the prevalence of obesity and health related issues is counteracted by an explosion in domestically produced health remedies, digestive aids, supplements, and health clubs. All of these are uniquely Japanese; the health clubs have many of the same rules and regulations as traditional Japanese onsens for example. Japan's treatment of the automobile is no secret either; they continue to domestically produce many innovative vehicles and products for use in Japan to assist the Japanese by providing increasingly efficient and lower-emission formats of transportation. They are world leaders in hybrid technology and Toyota recently surpassed GM as the most profitable car company in the world. The infusion of Western culture does not in my opinion threaten Japanese society as a whole in the marketplace. Foreign products do not directly enhance the lives of the Japanese, aside from raw material and food they already have everything the West could possibly offer them and then some.

Furthermore it is still one of the most homogenous societies of any industrialized nation, certainly within the G8, and therefore has a fairly stable foundation void of civil conflict, religious extremism, and so on. Coupled with a nationalist movement that appears to be slowly gathering momentum (whether we see that as good or bad is at this point irrelevant) I don't see Japanese culture becoming fractured simply due to increased trade and product diversity.

Politically, I think it's difficult to compare the two countries. One dynamic you have to consider is that in Turkey there are different groups competing for political power. Some groups are supported domestically, others by, lets say, 'external' influences, and even left to their own devices it's not entirely clear whether the two could agree. Religion plays a huge role in this. At the root of it all is a game of chess that extends across the middle east and its vast oil resources. Therefore internal dynamics risk becoming the thumbscrews which are turned abroad in order to influence the flow of business and money. Japan's political system is not as fractured across religious lines and is less easily influenced. Its economic power and influence command a less collusive treatment by other nations.

[w1ngzer0]

the whole " westernization" phrase doesn't make sense.

Dictionary term:
-verb
to influence with ideas, customs, practices, etc., characteristic of the Occident or of the western U.S.
Also, especially British, west·ern·ise.

So, if they are talking about the western us..... Where are the cowboy hats in Japan? Where are the ranches and y'all saying y'all.

Los Angeles and San Francisco doesn't make up California. Have you ever been there? 3/4 of the state is farm land. Outside of LA to Sacramento on I-99; is nothing but FARMS. So, i see nothing wrong with influencing other countries to farm. Arizona has 2 major cities. The other 3/4 of the state? nothing but nature. Nevada.... well, Nevada lol. New Mexico. Another example. 3/4 of that state is controlled by Navajos. Whats on that 3/4? nothing.

My point is this "westernized" term needs to start referring to Hollywood and not the western us. Start calling it something that makes sense. Consumerism. Whatever. A lot of America is still VERY moderate, it's just the news would make you think else wise.

[Derfel]

Oi Jiyuu, do you honestly think that my grand grand parents killed themselves just to set up a lie? If thats the case go find some therapist for your paranoia, its foolish to beat your chest and say half of the world is wrong and you are right, its fun how you admit that Turkey's political system is pretty much screwed, yet you say that the history that is enforced by that very government is white, pure and authentic. You know having a turkish flag as your avatar, and a quote from that Ataturk murderer means that your words can't be objective on this topic. And i'll tell you why, someone who denies the armenian genocide can only be subjective, and i'll go even further, blind.

[Astroboy]

One thing I hear from some people visiting Japan, is that Western-ization. One transformation under effects of another always corrupts, I'd not like friends from Western countries take this offensive.
A solid and rich culture is maintained by a traditionalist society to a degree. I have always seen the Japanese people being hard-working, attached to their culture hence traditions very closely, highly regarding virtues like respect, effort and peace.
Since my homeland is being torn apart by imported Western way of life, brands and the irrelevant loyalty created to them, totally corrupting TV programs and shows, the process of cultural genocide by being exposed to things we never had before due to our cultural bakground; I'm concerned about the same for Japan.
How do you, especially native Japanese friends see about the situation? Is it how you were or is there a change in progress that is disturbing ?

I think this subject interests me very much.... I think one of key characteristics of Japan must be .... its consistency. In other words, Japan remains unchanged.

[Annubis]

I am glad that this post is here for me to recap what I know about Japan's history. I'm sorry if this will take two reply entries.

First: I'd like to mention that "western" means a way of life that comes from Europe and North America.

Second: Let's recap what we know about Japan's history...

In the far past, Japan was agricultural, producing rice. The people depended on nature for their liveliness and their mobility, since the land is so mountainous.

In the 6th century, the Chan sect from China came to the island known as Japan today, but was originally a part of the great country including Korea, China, Indonesia, etc. The Chan sect took Nara.... war and such...

In the 12th century, Zen schools came out of Buddhism -- so assimilation of Buddhism with Shintoism.

1603-1868 - Edo Period - The dutch, England, Portugal, Spain... (so named THE WEST) wanted natural resources, cheap labour and places to sell their goods - the industrial revolution. Textiles, spices, rice and dyes were traded from Japan to the West, for modern technologies and goods, such as basic assembly lines for reproducing textiles and books, clothing, toys and foods.

During this period, the Tokugawa Family closed Japan to the West for approximately 250 years. Matthew Perry of the USA forceably insisted that Japan open contact and trade in the late 1800s.

1868-1912 - Meiji Period - The restoration of Japan after the fall of Tekugawa, a great military leader. So came the fall of the class structure of Military, farmer, artisan, merchant in order of falling rank. In this time, Parliament and the military took advice from the various Western leaders, and therefor caught up to the West.

[Annubis]

So with the Meiji period... came the true westernization of Japan. What was the dream? Peace, prosperity and wealth.

Have we all forgotten 1945? March 10 - Tokyo, April 1 - Hiroshima and Okinawa, August 6 - Hiroshima, August 9 - Nagasaki.... August 15 - Surrender, August 30 - Occupation of the USofA under General McArther for 7 years (originally only supposed to be 2 years)

What changed?

The Japanese constitution was rewritten with Witney and McArther
Women's rights were established
Labor Unions were created
The secret police was abolished
War and military force was renounced - Article 9

1952 - Peace treaty signed, USA left and the occupation ended.

That was only 56 years ago!!!

How can anyone say that Japan is not Westernized? (Disneyland anyone?)

Colonialism is at the roots of Western infiltration into other countries for the purpose of taking resources, technologies and changing a nation to suit their own purposes.

When national sovereignty is finally achieved, each state moves from colonial to autonomous, postcolonial status. Japan is no less a victim of colonialism by the West. It is a postcolonial country.

Please correct me if I am wrong and forgive me if I offend.

[Astroboy]

Thanks for your recap!

The Japanese constitution was rewritten with Witney and McArther - True, but as far as it's convenient to Japanese, no need to change so far.

Women's rights were established- True in terms of voting right, but Japanese housewives already had controling power over household finance. Women's voting rights were established in many European countries (incld. France) after WWII. So it was not simply Westernized.

Labor Unions were created- was re-established.

The secret police was abolished- Still exist as a new security police with less power.

War and military force was renounced - Article 9 - Convenient article for Japan, in fact we can avoid to get involved with WARs leb by US and Eurpoe anymore, while we can build up "defense power". Plus we can keep US military force as insurance. Either way it is not Westernized but only Japanese preference.

In the meanwhile,

1) West tried to introduce Christianity into Japan, but all failed, only seeable at department stores - X'mas tree and decoration.
2) There are tons of "English" schools in Japan e.g. NOVA?, but no improvement, I think.
3) Western capitalism tried to force Japan to change Japanese capitalism, but what changed?
4) Emperor Hirohito lived longer than F Roosevelt, Churchill, Starlin, Mao and Hitler.
US-made consititution says Emperor is "symbol" of Japan, but it was a symbol in the past without any actual political power. The system remain unchanged, I think.