Comfort Women What do you think?

[Mars Man]

Question for you sir, how then can I or others for that matter ask if their, the comfort women's, stories are believable or not to other members.

In turn, a good question; yes. I'd tend to think that asking in a manner that would allow for shades of possibilities would be the way to go.


However for myself anyway, just asking whether someone believes them or not really has nothing to do with verification does it?

Yes, I agree with that, and for that very reason, would follow by adding that for that very reason, a person's statement of belief or non-belief is a matter of information. To that degree, then, hearing ones belief would be information gathering alone. For that reason, in all due respect, I feel it'd be best to let what has been said, be there on the record much more so than being seen as a point in an ongoing argument; something that must be drawn up again (and again).

[Dutch Baka]

I just found this article today, maybe an interesting read for some of you:

GIs frequented Japan's 'comfort women'
http://www.nj.com/newsflash/international/index.ssf?/base/international-21/1177529059277730.xml&storylist=international

[KirinMan]

In turn, a good question; yes. I'd tend to think that asking in a manner that would allow for shades of possibilities would be the way to go.
Yes, I agree with that, and for that very reason, would follow by adding that for that very reason, a person's statement of belief or non-belief is a matter of information. To that degree, then, hearing ones belief would be information gathering alone. For that reason, I in all due respect, feel it'd be best to let what has been said, be there on the record much more so than being seen as a point in an ongoing argument; something that must be drawn up again (and again).

I would also like to add here in all respect to those that have posted their thoughtful replies so far, I admit that I asked the question in question here originally pretty much in the heat of the argument and also out of respect to the one woman's story that I personally heard.

For the record here, I won't be asking that question again. However I add this, if anyone would like to reply to it and give their thoughts and opinions regarding the "why", I am willing to listen.

Thank you for your thoughful opinion and advice here, much appreciated.

[Mikawa Ossan]

This one from Mikawa-Ossan, with regards to this reply I am interested in hearing why he wrote that it can not be answered with a simple yes or no.
I hope he stops by and reads this as well, and maybe we can get an idea into why he feels the way he does.
Mars Man is quite perceptive!

I think that some of them are indeed lying. I think that others may believe their stories, but for one reason or another, they are not 'true' (in other words there may be some misrepresentation of what actually happened). I think that there are some other women who are indeed telling the truth without any misrepresentations. I don't pretend to know the corresponding percentages, but I have known far too many people to believe that it's a simple 0% / 0% / 100%.

Therefore if I were posited with the question, I simply could not answer it with a yes or no because my true opinion is neither.

[Dutch Baka]

Another related article:

Abe apologizes to U.S. Congressional leaders over 'comfort women'
http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20070427p2a00m0na009000c.html

[KirinMan]

Another related article:

Abe apologizes to U.S. Congressional leaders over 'comfort women'
http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20070427p2a00m0na009000c.html

Dutch thanks for posting these articles. To me anyway Abe is kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place on this issue. He doesn't want to p'off his conservatitive backers in his own party, particularly before the upcoming elections in July and he doesn't want this issue to interfere with Japan's largest trading partner and the country guarunteeing his country's defense.

[pipokun]

...
This is a better point you bring up, but you must remember, the real size of the problem was not known until much later
...
You should say that the issue was just politicised until much later.
But then, the Korean government had still hid the info which Japan even suggested she should pay the indivisual compensation during the normalisation talk and I think Japan did not say "everything was settled" back then, for the democracy in South Korea had been unstabled in 80'.

[KirinMan]

You should say that the issue was just politicised until much later.


Actually I agree with gaijinalways that the issue itself was not brought to light until much later.

But then, the Korean government had still hid the info which Japan even suggested she should pay the indivisual compensation during the normalisation talk and I think Japan did not say "everything was settled" back then, for the democracy in South Korea had been unstabled in 80'.

Which as you know has absolutely nothing to do with whether Japan owes these women compensation or an apology.

[pipokun]

...
Which as you know has absolutely nothing to do with whether Japan owes these women compensation or an apology.
Why?
Japan have already paid the compansation to Korea more than 40 years ago.

At the recent press conference, probably you watched it, the adovocates repeatedly announced they were doing their activity in East Timor.
They would be glad if Korea would separeted into millions of countries.

[KirinMan]

Why?
Japan have already paid the compansation to Korea more than 40 years ago.
To borrow Mike Cash's image here, Pipokun you have brought this up numerous times before, in many different forms but really it is getting to be like;
http://www.bittermancircle.com/my%20images/BeatDeadHorse.gif

[pipokun]

Just look at South Korea now. They are hunting witches who supported Japan before the end of WWII. And I heard the offsprings are also categorised into them.
I understand their feeling that they had been ruled by dictators for years, though.

[gaijinalways]

Pipokun, look at the difference with Germany and Switzerland. Companies in both countries paid even when they had no legal basis to do so, with some of them initially trying the same oft used Japanese line that 'we already signed an accord that doesn't allow for compensation to be paid to individuals'. Pressure eventually convinced them it ws better to pay to people who were used as slave labor and had property illegally taken. The government in some cases paid as well (1/2 in Germany)

Also, I am still not clear on why the 'all' in the comfort women question makes it difficult to answer. Perhaps it is a problem reading it coming from a Japanese perspective. Of course one can say, no, they are not all liars, but many of them are, etc..

I can't say that all their stories are true, but again are they all liars? Why would so many of them make up such a story? I think it is much more than what another right winger proclaimed it to be, women looking for more wages. If it was only that, then why did so many women turn down money from the unofficial fund offering them it?

Yet Dicek and pipokun and others didn't answer this at all, just talked about what had been paid or signed or making some primarily irrelevant comparisons. Only Mikawa attempted, but didn't seem to answer, to my mind. Again, Mikawa, it's not a yes or no we're seeking, we're just asking if you believe if any of them told the truth?

Nothing is all or nothing, but certainly since I believe some/many of the women were raped, you would think why whitewash it, why would the government try to delete it from the textbooks unless one is ashamed to admit it at all, to admit even the possibility of it happening.

As to the comparison with the US servicemen girls, it seems quite different as they were all paid, and at least as stated in the article, were making quite good money for that time in war-torn Japan. In addition, the Japanese idea was to protect the other women, an idea that still exists in some forms in Japan (sometimes expanded to all Japanese).

[Mikawa Ossan]

Two articles that may be of interest.
Coercion seen in brothels for Occupation (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070427a1.html)
慰安婦含む他の戦後補償４訴訟も敗訴確定 (http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0427/TKY200704270348.html)

I disagree with your assessment of Pipokun's argument that Japan has already compensated the victims of any past wrong.

You are arguing from a moral standpoint. Pipokun is arguing more from a legal standpoint.

Morally, the practice of coerced comfort women was bad.

Legally, Japan has settled with both China (the second article alludes to this, even though it's only in Japanese) and S. Korea when they normalized relations, and they are not longer liable for further damages.

You can argue the morality of the situation until you're blue in the face, but the (legal status) horse will still continue to live.
Yet Dicek and pipokun and others didn't answer this at all, just talked about what had been paid or signed or making some primarily irrelevant comparisons. Only Mikawa attempted, but didn't seem to answer, to my mind. Again, Mikawa, it's not a yes or no we're seeking, we're just asking if you believe if any of them told the truth?
Actually, I thought it was evident that I thought that yes, I do think that some of them told the truth. I just don't know how many of them are doing so.

As to whether Japan compensates the victims even though there is no legal necessity for them to do so, that is up to the Japanese government to decide. Whatever they decide, Japan will have to live with the consequences of their actions. (And here I am referring to their present actions of whether they further compensate past comfort women or not.)

[KirinMan]

Morally, the practice of coerced comfort women was bad.

Legally, Japan has settled with both China (the second article alludes to this, even though it's only in Japanese) and S. Korea when they normalized relations, and they are not longer liable for further damages.

You can argue the morality of the situation until you're blue in the face, but the (legal status) horse will still continue to live.

However the issue of the comfort women was not covered by the compensation that Japan paid to Korea.

The issue of the Comfort Women came up long after compensation had ben paid, please correct me if I am wrong here.

[Mikawa Ossan]

However the issue of the comfort women was not covered by the compensation that Japan paid to Korea.
The issue of the Comfort Women came up long after compensation had ben paid, please correct me if I am wrong here.
Well, remember when I said:
Forced laborers are separate issue from the comfort women, however, unless comfort women are included among "forced laborers".?

I am not unsympathetic to your point. However, if comfort women are included in the interpretation of "forced laborers", then they legally become the same issue. Since the issue of compensation for forced laborers has been legally settled, it means that if comfort women are included in that category, their compensation has also been legally settled.

[KirinMan]

I am not unsympathetic to your point. However, if comfort women are included in the interpretation of "forced laborers", then they legally become the same issue. Since the issue of compensation for forced laborers has been legally settled, it means that if comfort women are included in that category, their compensation has also been legally settled.

Ok, for arguments sake here, let's put aside the issue of the Korean Comfort Women, how then how should the rest of the "comfort women" and their claims against Japan be decided?

The current argument or discussion seems to center upon the Korean women alone. While they consitute the majority of the women making claims against Japan there are numerous others that have claims as well.

Are they also covered by the compensation that Japan paid to Korea for it's "misdeeds" per say from WWII?

However, if comfort women are included in the interpretation of "forced laborers", then they legally become the same issue

That's a good point, I can honestly say I do not know the answer to that.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Ok, for arguments sake here, let's put aside the issue of the Korean Comfort Women, how then how should the rest of the "comfort women" and their claims against Japan be decided?
The current argument or discussion seems to center upon the Korean women alone. While they consitute the majority of the women making claims against Japan there are numerous others that have claims as well.
Are they also covered by the compensation that Japan paid to Korea for it's "misdeeds" per say from WWII?
Obviously, it becomes a country by country basis.
In the second article that I gave a link to before (the one only in Japanese), several cases of Chinese comfort women were rejected by the Japanese courts based on an agreement with China that seems to be similar to the one between Japan and S. Korea. Therefore, it seems that Chinese comfort women are in a similar situation to Korean ones. I don't know the situation with other countries, but it wouldn't surprise me if there are similar agreements there, too. It would be worth researching for anyone who is interested.

[pipokun]

However the issue of the comfort women was not covered by the compensation that Japan paid to Korea.
The issue of the Comfort Women came up long after compensation had ben paid, please correct me if I am wrong here.
It was covered. And just think why Koreans are upset now for their govenment policy which invested the moeny for their growth, though I think they were right things for Korea.

I always see someone like gaijinalways or obeika saying German did right things and Japan did nothing.
Yes, Germany did right things you may call, i.e. indivisual compensation, however, but look at frustraion esp. in the former East European nations about the right indivisual compensation.
I don't know which is better, indivisual compensation or comprehensive one like the Treaty of Peace with Japan.

I can say Japan should have forced Korea or China to offer indivisual compensation, considering their current hypocracy loudly saying, "we can forgive, but never forget". But I don't think the government should say loudly, "we compensated the countries".

[Mikawa Ossan]

Here is the English version of the story I included a link to before.
Top court: No war redress for Chinese (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070428a1.html)

Some more related stories:
Former sex slave joins call for Abe apology (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070428a4.html)
East Timor former sex slaves start speaking out (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070428f1.html)

[KirinMan]

It was covered. And just think why Koreans are upset now for their govenment policy which invested the moeny for their growth, though I think they were right things for Korea.
I always see someone like gaijinalways or obeika saying German did right things and Japan did nothing.
Yes, Germany did right things you may call, i.e. indivisual compensation, however, but look at frustraion esp. in the former East European nations about the right indivisual compensation.
I don't know which is better, indivisual compensation or comprehensive one like the Treaty of Peace with Japan.
I can say Japan should have forced Korea or China to offer indivisual compensation, considering their current hypocracy loudly saying, "we can forgive, but never forget". But I don't think the government should say loudly, "we compensated the countries".

I'll have a response for you tomorrow, tonight I am going to enjoy a few well deserved, what I like to call, tansanyo mugi cha, 炭酸よ麦茶, and get some well deserved sleep. :beer: :thankyou: to me:-)

Mikawa-san thanks for the links I heard about the Chinese verdict on the news, and wasn't really surprised by the verdict.

I really don't think Japan is legally liable to pay any compensation, mostly because of statute of limitations on claims. However I personally think they morally and ethically should at least do something monetarily, like I responded to Pipokun's question on post

Post 204 (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=458953&postcount=204) and Post 205 (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=458957&postcount=205) here on this thread.

[gaijinalways]

Mikawa, perhaps I wasn't clear enough; remember when you said thank you to Marsman? You stated you earlier were having a hard time answering the question because of the word 'all'. But as I stated, I don't see where the addition of 'all' makes any differance in answering the question.

As to whether Japan compensates the victims even though there is no legal necessity for them to do so, that is up to the Japanese government to decide. Whatever they decide, Japan will have to live with the consequences of their actions. (And here I am referring to their present actions of whether they further compensate past comfort women or not.)

Please reread my previous comments. Obviously Germany and Switzerland also didn't have any legal necessity to do so either, but they did it. Hence, you don't see people complaining about what they did and the appearance of their apologies has more force. Contrast this with Japan where they keep trying to remove references to what the Japanese consider behavour that downgrades the image of what Japanese like to think of as their pure and honorable image. In addition, in Austria people dismissing the Holocaust (another deplorable part of WWII history) can be fined and jailed as was David Irving, but in Japan these people can become Prime Minister!

Remember; 'Those that can not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' (Santayana)

[Mikawa Ossan]

Mikawa, perhaps I wasn't clear enough; remember when you said thank you to Marsman? You stated you earlier were having a hard time answering the question because of the word 'all'. But as I stated, I don't see where the addition of 'all' makes any differance in answering the question.I guess we just disagree here. I don't think that 'all' of them are accurately depicting the past. But that'S not to say that I think 'all' of them are lying, either. The question itself wasn't very nuanced, and I was just taking it at face value.
Please reread my previous comments. Obviously Germany and Switzerland also didn't have any legal necessity to do so either, but they did it. Hence, you don't see people complaining about what they did and the appearance of their apologies has more force. Contrast this with Japan where they keep trying to remove references to what the Japanese consider behavour that downgrades the image of what Japanese like to think of as their pure and honorable image. In addition, in Austria people dismissing the Holocaust (another deplorable part of WWII history) can be fined and jailed as was David Irving, but in Japan these people can become Prime Minister!
Remember; 'Those that can not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' (Santayana)
Here we don't actually disagree to the extent that any accusations are in fact, true. That's why I said this earlier:
Whatever they decide, Japan will have to live with the consequences of their actions.

[hanachan]

Post 204 (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=458953&postcount=204) and Post 205 (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=458957&postcount=205) here on this thread.
I thought that when those were posted, this thread died.
This thread is going for the only one Obeika prepared.

This is from PBS "Foreign Exchange".
In a interview with Mr. Zakaria, Komori san speaks for my feelings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9VFiNPe4do
Thanks, bye.

[KirinMan]

It was covered. And just think why Koreans are upset now for their govenment policy which invested the moeny for their growth, though I think they were right things for Korea.
I always see someone like gaijinalways or obeika saying German did right things and Japan did nothing.

As you know the situations were different, Germany has not worked towards rewriting it's history with regards to it's actions during WWII. That is probably another topic altogether.

In my opinion the Comfort Women issue is just one part of a larger issue of the current Japanese Administration's efforts at erasing a large part of it's war history.

Even in the link to the interview Interview with Yoshihisa Komori (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9VFiNPe4do) provided by hanachan on the previous post here, towards the very end of the interview he is asked what Japan must do get out of this situation, and his reply is that "More and more people (Japanese) need to speak out in dialogue, discussion or debate......"

I hope people here remember though that the Sankei Shimbun is openly recognized as having "Its editorial view is generally nationalist, anti-communist, conservative, and pro-United States."

Sankei_Shimbun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankei_Shimbun)

Personally I think he neatly side-stepped the question and gave no concrete ideas or thoughts on how this situation can be rectified.

To me that means more confrontation and disagreement particularly from China and S.Korea.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Obeika-san.
I understood your opinion enough.
In a court of law of your country,
If you appealed for this crime, how will be it.
Or please appeal to the International Court of Justice if your opinion is right.
Because a court of law is facilities of that purpose.
Surely you will win.
Probably.

[KirinMan]

Obeika-san.
I understood your opinion enough.
In a court of law of your country,
If you appealed for this crime, how will be it.
Or please appeal to the International Court of Justice if your opinion is right.
Because a court of law is facilities of that purpose.
Surely you will win.
Probably.

My only hope is that people from not only Japan and the US but also throughout the rest of the world can come to a equitable solution to this matter. That may be naive to some here, but I can always hope.

The biggest "loser" in my opinion is our next generation of children that are never taught that this is one of the atrocities or horrors that occured during WWII, and we all should work towards creating an atmosphere of peace and prosperity for all.

The second biggest "loser" in my opinion is those that refuse to let the past go and work towards a better future, without forgetting of course the history that brought us to this point in time.

If these two can be overcome then all are "winner's".

Hiroyuki-san what do you think?

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

"International Court of Justice"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice
If you bring an action here, your hope comes true.
It is the main international judicial organization of the United Nations.

It meets your demand enough.

[pipokun]

...
Obviously Germany and Switzerland also didn't have any legal necessity to do so either, but they did it.
...

Just think why the former East European nations and German people still have frustration for the individual conpansation.
Tell me how much conpensation did your parents get from Germany.

The Korean activist's claim is that they forced the victim to refuse the conpensaiton from Japan and that they has agitates Japan did nothing.

As you know the situations were different, Germany has not worked towards rewriting it's history with regards to it's actions during WWII. That is probably another topic altogether.
In my opinion the Comfort Women issue is just one part of a larger issue of the current Japanese Administration's efforts at erasing a large part of it's war history.
...
Again, I kindly ask you to bring your kids who learned the rewriting Japan's history in Okinawa.

[KirinMan]

Again, I kindly ask you to bring your kids who learned the rewriting Japan's history in Okinawa.

I'm sorry but I have really no idea what you mean here.

[pipokun]

Your kids had studied the erasing a large part of it's war history in Okinawa, right?
Bring them here.

[KirinMan]

Your kids had studied the erasing a large part of it's war history in Okinawa, right?
Bring them here.
Pipokun, my kids, well 2 out of 3 anyway were born here in Japan. I live in Japan and have been living here for over 20 years now. My oldest was born in the USA but from when she was 1 1/2 yrs old has been living here in Japan.

What are you trying to ask me?

It really wouldn't surprise me that my kids know more about the history of the war here in Okinawa than you do. Don't misunderstand me here, at least here in Okinawa we truly work hard at teaching 平和　studies (peace studies).

Can you say the same for children in mainland Japan?

[Mikawa Ossan]

Pipokun, could you be a little more clear with what you're trying to say? Now I'm starting to get confused, too! :relief:

[caster51]

The biggest "loser" in my opinion is our next generation of children that are never taught that this is one of the atrocities or horrors that occured during WWII, and we all should work towards creating an atmosphere of peace and prosperity for all.
The second biggest "loser" in my opinion is those that refuse to let the past go and work towards a better future, without forgetting of course the history that brought us to this point in time.
I think the biggest loser is the person who dont know " why they sell the lady as a prostitute"
and ppl do it for poverty .......
raping , forced something are old-fashioned in todaY's thouugh.
because the money is mightier than the enforcement
war made ppl mad.
what is origin of WAr, poverty?

[pipokun]

In my opinion the Comfort Women issue is just one part of a larger issue of the current Japanese Administration's efforts at erasing a large part of it's war history.
My opinion is just simple that the efforts as obeika claims is not true.

Obeika, what do you think the Korean activist's attitude on this issue?
Do you think they are fair without telling the people what Japan did for a long time and keep telling Japan did nothing?

[KirinMan]

My opinion is just simple that the efforts as obeika claims is not true.
Obeika, what do you think the Korean activist's attitude on this issue?
Do you think they are fair without telling the people what Japan did for a long time and keep telling Japan did nothing?
I'm sorry, I still do not understand what your point or question is.

[gaijinalways]

Ah, this last one I get. Pipokun is stating he thinks that the Korean activists knew that their government received money earlier from the Japanese government, yet conveniently ignored that fact when complaining about Japan's inaction on this issue. This is what he says is not fair. And you're right Pipokun, in some sense it's not fair. But that still doesn't make what Japan is trying to cover up right.

Mikawa, I didn't have any problems with the nuances of the original question. I still think it's more of a cultural bias in answering that particular question.

And yes, they (the Japanese) are living with those consequences now, as their reputation slowly tanks in Asia.

Obeika, I agree, the past and the future are closely related, but we do need to live in the now, plan for the future, and remember the past so as to avoid some of the mistakes we made before.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Mikawa, I didn't have any problems with the nuances of the original question. I still think it's more of a cultural bias in answering that particular question.
You have me intrigued, sir! Could you elaborate?

Your kids had studied the erasing a large part of it's war history in Okinawa, right?
Bring them here.This is what I was confused about, specifically.

[pipokun]

Ah, this last one I get. Pipokun is stating he thinks that the Korean activists knew that their government received money earlier from the Japanese government, yet conveniently ignored that fact when complaining about Japan's inaction on this issue. This is what he says is not fair. And you're right Pipokun, in some sense it's not fair. But that still doesn't make what Japan is trying to cover up right.
...

What do you mean Japan is trying to cover up?
The military brothel has been nothing secret at all, though I honestly say that I did not know some women married soldiers even during the harsh period till I read the US document.

Your kids had studied the erasing a large part of it's war history in Okinawa, right?
Bring them here.
Obeika claims Japan is erasing a large part of it's war history, but I cannot agree with him from my past education here. So explanation by his kids is highly appreciated if his claim is true.

[caster51]

What do you mean Japan is trying to cover up?
because he lerant Japan is evil from past education...:souka:
and he was never taught from their past mistakes.
that is why they mistake again and again
I never thought some of them have a chinese Idea...
The distinction between the problem of happening actually in present and the problem of the image from past in the future cannot be understood.
at first they should get out their problems

[KirinMan]

Obeika claims Japan is erasing a large part of it's war history, but I cannot agree with him from my past education here So explanation by his kids is highly appreciated if his claim is true.

That's not quite what I said but for now I'll leave that alone. :relief:

Pipokun are you still in school now? I don't think so, I am refering to the textbooks issue, plus the refusal to acknowledge it's (Japan's) role in this matter.

I'm also going to pass on your comment in the last sentence as well. :wary:

Your kids had studied the erasing a large part of it's war history in Okinawa, right?


You know quite well I never said this. :smoke: Sarcasm noted, thank you.

[pipokun]

You existence in Okinawa explains everything.
No insane anti-US movement here now, at least we know the difference between the US base and American people like you.
Even after a young Asian woman killed two innocent kids or a crazy man broke into a Japanese school in an Asian country and hit kids there, no backlash was here. (I am scared if a Japanese would do the same thing in the Asian country...)
That's is the ultra-militaristic, history-rewriting, the far-right ruled country or whatever you call, Japan.

And there are history-loving countries around Japan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo_controversies
I know there are history-loving people around the world, but what do you think the Korean history-loving president who like to talk about the one more than 1400 years ago in 21st century?
I think Chinese posters can understand what I feel.

Off-topic
If possible, look at the one-phrase description of the Vietnam war in the Korean textbook. It is good to know what is the history-facing people like.

[KirinMan]

You existence in Okinawa explains everything.
No insane anti-US movement here now, at least we know the difference between the US base and American people like you.

Actually I think you truly do not know how I feel about the bases being here in Okinawa. I am a former Marine, and my opinions about the bases here have changed greatly in the past 20 years of living here. However that is going way off topic here and I apologize for that.

Out of curiousity here what does this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo_controversies
I know there are history-loving people around the world, but what do you think the Korean history-loving president who like to talk about the one more than 1400 years ago in 21st century?

have to do with the topic at hand?

Pipokun, sorry for being blunt here, but I don't think that you and I are ever going to see eye to eye about the issue of the "Comfort Women".

Oh and btw that's ok too. The most important thing has been the honest exchange of thoughts, ideas, opinions, and information about this topic that matters the most. Hopefully those that are reading this and following along on this thread, with or without commenting, have learned something about the history and differences that exist here in Japan with regards to this issue.
Information is power, and by empowering those that have read and followed along on this thread we have all, by default perhaps, helped to educate others about this issue.

That sir has been one of my goals all along, letting people know that this issue exists, thank you for helping provide information and your opinions as well as actively participating here on this thread.

Kanpai..... :beer:

[pipokun]

What I wanted to say is that Japan has to talk to the history-loving people.

[gaijinalways]

Pipokun,

This has been a long running issue in Japan (and other countries as well). Every country sometimes tries to bury things they don't want discussed, it's just that the Japanese government does a fairly good job of it considering this is supposed to be a democratic country.

Changing how others view you is admirable, doing it by telling lies about your past or simply ignoring that it happened is not.

[KirinMan]

Changing how others view you is admirable, doing it by telling lies about your past or simply ignoring that it happened is not.

Well said and I agree with you 100%. It isn't just countries that do this either.:-)

[pipokun]

Pipokun,
This has been a long running issue in Japan (and other countries as well). Every country sometimes tries to bury things they don't want discussed, it's just that the Japanese government does a fairly good job of it considering this is supposed to be a democratic country.
Changing how others view you is admirable, doing it by telling lies about your past or simply ignoring that it happened is not.

Bury or ignore?
Just look at the Asian Women's Fund.
『政府調査「従軍慰安婦」関係資料集成』刊行
第1巻(7.97M) 第2巻(5.65M) 第3巻(6.19M) 第4巻(4.40M) 第5巻(5.18M)
http://www.awf.or.jp/program/index.html

Japan even collected and openly showed the victor's documents.

[KirinMan]

Bury or ignore?
Just look at the Asian Women's Fund.

No matter what you say here the Asian Women's Fund was not the answer, and you know the reasons why.

Do you really think that Japan is going to openly talk about this and other issues related to WWII without being prodded into it from other countries in the first place?

[caster51]

Asian women foud ?
I think they were so rich.....100 times of salary of policemen at that time.
it does not need any more.
there are so many poor ppl more than them

[gaijinalways]

Pipokun, caster, etc..,

you can see obviously that many people find fault with the Japanese government's handling of this event. Members of the government want to void mentioning about some events in WWII and before. None of us like the way Korea and China has handled it, that is obvious if you read the posts, but we're not talking about their behaviour in this thread, we're talking about Japan's!!! If you often only assume to be better or the same as everyone else, then what is to stop one from living among assasins and thieves?

Just another question, how much money will bring back a life lost or years lost?

The answer is none. Most of the women don't want just money, they want their respect back.

[hanachan]

Pipokun, caster, etc..,
you can see obviously that many people find fault with the Japanese government's handling of this event. Members of the government want to void mentioning about some events in WWII and before. None of us like the way Korea and China has handled it, that is obvious if you read the posts, but we're not talking about their behaviour in this thread, we're talking about Japan's!!!

Only Japan's fault? Is it only Japan that is blamed?

Documents: U.S. troops used 'comfort women' after WWII
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/04/25/comfort.women.ap/index.html

I would like to see how you will accuse US Government and US Army in terms of Japanese comfort women as well as you are currently accusing Japanese Government about Korean comfort women.
If you do not accuse the U.S., it will not be fair. Both cases violate human rights of women.

Can you prove that they were not forced?
Now we stand on the same situation?

he who is without sin....cast the first stone...

[KirinMan]

Only Japan's fault? Is it only Japan that is blamed?
Documents: U.S. troops used 'comfort women' after WWII
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/04/25/comfort.women.ap/index.html
I would like to see how you will accuse US Government and US Army in terms of Japanese comfort women as well as you are currently accusing Japanese Government about Korean comfort women.
If you do not accuse the U.S., it will not be fair. Both cases violate human rights of women.
Can you prove that they were not forced?
Now we stand on the same situation?


You know it gets a bit tiresome when discussing one issue and people bring up other issues that are not related to the issue at hand. Also it seems to me that the only reason that these other issues are brought up are to either justify or confuse the reader into thinking that these two issues are directly related. They are not.

If you want to discuss the US and it's use of brothels here in Japan after WWII I suggest you start another thread instead of using this issue to justify the other one, thank you.

It would make for a lively discussion I'm sure.

FYI edited to add take a look at this thread, I started it in response to your post here, please feel free to make your comments about this issue there.:-)

U.S. troops used 'comfort women' after WWII
(http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31007)

he who is without sin....cast the first stone...
On second thought comment in reply to this statement, better left un said.:souka:

[caster51]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9VFiNPe4do
conmort women card had gone?
I think they were marely prostitutes.

and it is a sinocentrism matter?

japan is lack of introspection
show us a faithful introspection
what is a "faithful introspection"
MOney and apology....then again again.

[gaijinalways]

Uh, did you read my thread?:okashii:

We're talking about Japan's behaviour, open another thread if you want to talk about US servicemen using jaapnese prostitutes, which is a whole other issue.

[caster51]

NOP
Most of the women don't want just money, they want their respect back.
ask a agent,master of brothel or their parents.
therer is no respect because that was their will and money.
silence is Gold sometimes.
that was their BUSINESS
it weas not Japanese army's one

[gaijinalways]

Caster, you seem to be ignoring testimonies and evidence in your own country to the contrary. This reminds me of another on the previously mentioned 'girls' forum 'Young Dudes Guide to Japan'. The main right-wing poster wants to mostly only accept Japanes evidence, but then he doesn't want to accept Japanese evidence that runs counter to his nationalistic rants. You can't have it both ways, you need to look at all the evidence. Why would all the non-Japanese disagree with you? Think, they must have many reasons besides the ridiculous 'they can't understand our culture' or 'they hate Japanese'!

I agree with many people, 60 years does seem a long time ago, I haven't lived that long yet. I don't hate my father-in-law for fighting in the war, but I am glad he never had to do the things that some Japanese soldiers admit to (rounding up women to 'work', raping women because the emeporer said it was okay, etc.). But on the other hand, 60 years is short form a human perspective. The crimes were horrible. Japan didn't help their Asian neighbors modernize, they tried to enslave them.

If you want to change other people's opinions of Japan and the Japanese, you have to do a better job than 'duck and cover'. The outside opinions of Japan will not go away just because the victims are dead. Their memories live on long after the tragedies.

[KirinMan]

Uh, did you read my thread?:okashii:
We're talking about Japan's behaviour, open another thread if you want to talk about US servicemen using jaapnese prostitutes, which is a whole other issue.

I did mostly because this issue has cropped up here too many times, so here is the link to the U.S. troops used 'comfort women' after WWII (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31007) thread which you already know about.:p

Hopefully Caster will make his comments there about this issue from now on.

[june]

I think the government of Japan should formally acknowledge, apologize, and accept historical responsibility in a clear and unequivocal manner for its imperial Armed Force's coercion of women into sexual slavery

This tragedy was one of the largest cases of human trafficking in the 20th century and was officially commissioned and orchestrated by the japanese government including gang rape, sexual violence, human trafficking and numerous other crimes against humanity . To make matter worse, some textbooks used in Japanese schools minimize the comfort women tragedy and other atrocities, and even distort the Japanese role in war crimes during World war�U. Now, the US House of Representative is driving for the resolution asking for the government of Japan's formal apology for the comfort women. We need to demonstrate justice is always right and around us for our future and next generations.

[KirinMan]

I think the government of Japan should formally acknowledge, apologize, and accept historical responsibility in a clear and unequivocal manner for its imperial Armed Force's coercion of women into sexual slavery
This tragedy was one of the largest cases of human trafficking in the 20th century and was officially commissioned and orchestrated by the japanese government including gang rape, sexual violence, human trafficking and numerous other crimes against humanity . To make matter worse, some textbooks used in Japanese schools minimize the comfort women tragedy and other atrocities, and even distort the Japanese role in war crimes during World war�U. Now, the US House of Representative is driving for the resolution asking for the government of Japan's formal apology for the comfort women. We need to demonstrate justice is always right and around us for our future and next generations.

Even though the poster of this comment has been banned from this board I must agree with what they wrote here.

Though others may not agree with the content the last 6 words for our future and next generations are in my opinion the most important. I hope we all can remember that.:-)

[caster51]

Even though the poster of this comment has been banned from this board I must agree with what they wrote here.
Though others may not agree with the content the last 6 words for our future and next generations are in my opinion the most important. I hope we all can remember that.:-)
yes, it should write it "japanese army bought the Korean comfort women as a prostitute"

[KirinMan]

yes, it should write it "japanese army bought the Korean comfort women as a prostitute"
You know Caster the number of times that you have written this or something similar makes me go ............. Sigh........

I am fairly certain that everyone here that has followed along on this thread is intimately aware of your feelings about "Japanese army, Comfort Women, Prostitutes, and money".

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hi friends,
What happened to many of the 'Comfort Women' was extremely sad.
That we all could show our thoughts and give our opinions in this real fine Forum was wonderful.
But if I may say so; it now becomes a fight of who is right and who is wrong.
To me,those poor women who were so deeply hurt during WWII deserve our sincere respect.
Hope you don't mind me writing this?

[KirinMan]

But if I may say so; it now becomes a fight of who is right and who is wrong.
To me,those poor women who were so deeply hurt during WWII deserve our sincere respect.
Hope you don't mind me writing this?

And I sincerely hope that they are never forgotten as well.

[caster51]

You know Caster the number of times that you have written this or something similar makes me want to
they were only prostitutes that earnt money more than japanese prime minister.
it is neither more nor less than it.
more than 70% of them were the Japanese women.
they know well about them because they worked there togather.
of course , I regret that it is necessary to have worked for Poverty and family's debt like that.
and their Japanese money was became a toilet paper because of end of WAR.
that is way they blame it.
and they can not get back their money. then " we were forced"

http://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/Documentos/report-49-USA-orig.html

This report is based on the information obtained from the interrogation of twenty Korean "comfort girls" and two Japanese civilians captured around the tenth of August, 1944 in the mopping up operations after the fall of Myitkyin a in Burma.


A "comfort girl" is nothing more than a prostitute or "professional camp follower" attached to the Japanese Army for the benefit of the soldiers.



The inducement used by these agents was plenty of money, an opportunity to pay off the family debts, easy work, and the prospect of a new life in a new land, Singapore.

[caster51]

http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/thistory/1844000/20070331117527476253729800.jpg
according to Korean Jeju News paper in 1989,
a Korean published the record of comfort women of 済州島(Jeju-do)
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B8%88%E5%B7%9E%E5%B3%B6
250 comfort women was forced in that record
however there was no comfort women by jeju ppl's Witness.
they got angry to the lie of that book and korean hometown history auther.
they said" if my daughter was forced , I would resist them Absolutely"
and it was korean's character even at that time in korea.
there is no witness like that in korean society at that time.
It would have become a fuss at that time.

[gaijinalways]

Why would we believe such flimsy evidence as you have presented. Again caster, look deeper and spread your evidence net a little farther afield.

[caster51]

Why would we believe such flimsy evidence as you have presented. Again caster, look deeper and spread your evidence net a little farther afield.
there is no evidence that they were forced either.
just they insist it.
it is easy for korean that blame someone....they tell a lie like a taking breathes

[gaijinalways]

Caster, it's not just Koreans; Singaporeans, Filapinos, Chinese, etc.. You really do need to see a little beyond the borders of Japan. Again, why would only some in Japan hold to this 'all of them were prostitutes them' theory?:okashii:

[pipokun]

But it was sad that only Korean activists forced the victims (not all, though) not to take the compensation...

[KirinMan]

Tokyo☆eye question for you here, you voted on the poll that

I DO NOT believe the women making these claims.

I DO NOT believe that the women were coerced.

and

I BELIEVE that the Japanese Government owes compensation as well as an apology to these women.

Would you mind sharing with us here what you mean by the votes that you made? Thank you.

[caster51]

But it was sad that only Korean activists forced the victims (not all, though) not to take the compensation...

i think Japan should give them a thank-you letter and reward for their services instead of compensation

[KirinMan]

i think Japan should give them a thank-you letter and reward for their services instead of compensation

Caster that is crass at best:wary:

[gaijinalways]

But to be honest, it's in line with what he believes. I know someone else closer to my age, a diabetes doctor, who believes it. He also thinks he is a liberal, which I haven't seen Caster make claims to as yet. The worst part in the other forum is that other posters, some of them foreigners who I would think would know better, believe his claim. How someone who posits that the 731 unit only executed death row inmates, that all the women were prostitutes, that the Japanese were singled out for whaling (compared to Norway and Iceland), that Nanjing did happen (moderate right winger), but how much is difficult to tell, 'defended' Japanese atrocities as impossible because of Bushido, and etc. when it comes to the foreign crime wave and etc.. Surprisingly he has foreign friends, who see this as okay befitting our stance as guests in Japan (yeah right) to not interfere with internal affairs. Yes, I would agree if you're just a tourist, but many of us are not.


Hence,

why I am gaijinalways

[KirinMan]

But to be honest, it's in line with what he believes
I know, it's a shame though.


Off topic here.....

why I am gaijinalways

I really am beyond caring anymore, those that know me know better those that don't....well they dont live in my realm so it doesn't matter anyway.

I was having a conversation the other day with a friend of mine at a local supermarket and a total stranger came up and commented "Oh you speak Japanese so well" I looked at my friend deadpan and told him "Hey Yuki this lady thinks you speak great Japanese "Needless to say she was :bikkuri: and walked away like a puppy with it's tail between it's legs.

Sometimes it is really fun to fight fire with fire.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

gaijinalways,

You are so right! It starts at school: not a word about Japanese war crimes. So how can we blame the Japanese men and women born after WWII to believe that the Japanese army behaved so badly during the war, and mostly outside Japan.They didn't teach the kids at that time what really happened, only about the two A-Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And that is what the whole world can see with their own eyes. It was so horrible that each time I see a document about this drama on TV, I get tears in my eyes.
Japan destroyed many documents the 15th of August in 1945, something Germany didn't. We have eyewitnesses, but not many proofs, so Japan denies the eyewitnesses and send them to the world of hallucinations and lies. Many Japanese feel that we are all exaggerating. And that we don't like or trust the Japanese in general. That we want to make them look worse during WWII than they were.
I am convinced that there were far more fine Japanese than war criminals.
I am convinced that many Japanese mothers, wives and sisters and daughters wanted the war to be ended as soon as possible, while they were so terribly worried about their loved ones overseas fighting against the enemy.

But alas, there were also war criminals and war crimes! There were thousand of young women and young girls who were no prostitutes at all, but misused by the Japanese army overseas. That should be admitted and then we can all shake hands.

[pipokun]

...
They didn't teach the kids at that time what really happened, only about the two A-Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
...
That's not true.

Do you think it is fair that the Korean government kept what Japan compensated in the past to the public for such a long time?
In this sense, I highly rate the current Korean president, Roh Moo-hyun, who opened the post-war secret (even Nobel prize winner Kim could not do it).

[KirinMan]

That's not true.

Elizabeth, this is the only part of Pipokuns statement that I agree with, (The rest however is once again well.........) I know that they teach more than just;

They didn't teach the kids at that time what really happened, only about the two A-Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

When you say "at that time", what time are you refering to? There were no textbooks dealing with WWII in Japan until well into the late 1950's if what I am told is correct. Plus the atrocities committed by the Japanese Imperial Army were hidden from public record for many years after that as well. This issue while known about earlier, by the women themselves of course, only came up in the late 1980's

The devastation that the Okinawan people suffered at the hands of both the Japanese and Americans is well documented and taught in schools not only now but in the past as well. Well at least here it is.

We have eyewitnesses, but not many proofs, so Japan denies the eyewitnesses and send them to the world of hallucinations and lies. Many Japanese feel that we are all exaggerating. And that we don't like or trust the Japanese in general. That we want to make them look worse during WWII than they were.
I am convinced that there were far more fine Japanese than war criminals.


I agree with you here Elizabeth and this is where the problems stem from, it has been noted on a number of occasions here about the destruction of records, so there is no "proof" other than eyewitness accounts.

I am convinced that there were far more fine Japanese than war criminals.
I am convinced that many Japanese mothers, wives and sisters and daughters wanted the war to be ended as soon as possible, while they were so terribly worried about their loved ones overseas fighting against the enemy.


Well said, and I think you will agree with me that this is the world over as well, not just Japan.

But alas, there were also war criminals and war crimes! There were thousand of young women and young girls who were no prostitutes at all, but misused by the Japanese army overseas. That should be admitted and then we can all shake hands.

Finally this is a fact as well, but when will the day come that Japan finally acknowledges this? I have my doubts, hence I fear that future generations of Japanese children will live in ignorance and continually wonder why neighboring countries mistrust and "hate" them because of their past.

[caster51]

about Unit 731.
there is a propaganda pic that they said japan did..
Here is a korean museum propagande pic.
http://koreaphoto.hp.infoseek.co.jp/image/731_6.jpg
herer is chinese one
http://park6.wakwak.com/~photo/image/731_1.jpg
those pics are incident of 済南事件（seinan)in 1928 on japanese Shimpo journal
these victims were Japanese lady and civilian.
why do they use these one as a propaganda.
and foreigner believe them like a fool.

there are prejudice and victory rule that japan was an evil
and their excuse is they were worse than ours

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9VFiNPe4do

[caster51]

Here is an interesting book that was written by Australian soldier.

http://www.seizando.co.jp/appare.html

the book name is Appare(Good job) Japanese soldier who was witness as a soldier in Malay and indonesia...

and who was the cruelest?
there is a story in this book

[KirinMan]

why do they use these one as a propaganda.
and foreigner believe them like a fool.

Caster making accusations or calling foreigners fools is not a great way to get your point across.

What is your goal here? What point are you attempting to make?

Also now who is the one putting propaganda here? :okashii:

[caster51]

What is your goal here? What point are you attempting to make?
it is not about me.here...LOL
here is not religion things that want to belive
just try and bring a objective evidence.

[caster51]

this is an original of http://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/Documentos/report-49-USA-orig.html


Original
UNITED STATES OFFICE OF WAR INFORMATION
Psychological Warfare Team
Attached to U.S. Army Forces India-Burma Theater
APO 689
Japanese Prisoner
of War Interrogation
Report No. 49.
Place interrogated: Ledo Stockade
Date interrogated: Aug. 20 - Sept. 10, 1944
Date of Report: October 1, 1944
By: T/3 Alex Yorichi
__________________________________________________ ___________________
Prisoners : 20 Korean Comfort Girls
Date of Capture : August 10, 1944
Date of Arrival : August 15, 1994
at Stockade
__________________________________________________ ___________________
PREFACE;

This report is based on the information obtained from the interrogation of twenty Korean "comfort girls" and two Japanese civilians captured around the tenth of August, 1944 in the mopping up operations after the fall of Myitkyina in Burma.
The report shows how the Japanese recruited these Korean "comfort girls", the conditions under which they lived and worked, their relations with and reaction to the Japanese soldier, and their understanding of the military
situation.

A "comfort girl" is nothing more than a prostitute or "professional camp follower" attached to the Japanese Army for the benefit of the soldiers. The word "comfort girl" is peculiar to the Japanese. Other reports show the "comfort girls" have been found wherever it was necessary for the Japanese Army to fight. This report however deals only with the Korean "comfort girls" recruited by the Japanese and attached to their Army in Burma. The Japanese are reported to have shipped some 703 of these girls to Burma in 1942.

RECRUITING;

Early in May of 1942 Japanese agents arrived in Korea for the purpose of enlisting Korean girls for "comfort service" in newly conquered Japanese territories in Southeast Asia. The nature of this "service" was not specified but it was assumed to be work connected with visiting the wounded in hospitals, rolling bandages, and generally making the soldiers happy. The inducement used by these agents was plenty of money, an opportunity to pay off the family debts, easy work, and the prospect of a new life in a new land, Singapore. On the basis of these false representations many girls enlisted for overseas duty and were rewarded with an advance of a few hundred yen.
The majority of the girls were ignorant and uneducated, although a few had been connected with "oldest profession on earth" before. The contract they signed bound them to Army regulations and to work for the "house master" for a period of from six months to a year depending on the family debt for which they were advanced.
Approximately 800 of these girls were recruited in this manner and they landed with their Japanese "house master" at Rangoon around August 20th, 1942. They came in groups of from eight to twenty-two. From here they were distributed to various parts of Burma, usually to fair sized towns near Japanese Army camps.
Eventually four of these units reached the Myitkyina vicinity. They were, Kyoei, Kinsui, Bakushinro, and Momoya. The Kyoei house was called the "Maruyama Club", but was changed when the girls reached Myitkyina as Col. Maruyama, commander of the garrison at Myitkyina, objected to the similarity to his name.

PERSONALITY;

The interrogations show the average Korean "comfort girl" to be about twenty five years old, uneducated, childish, and selfish. She is not pretty either by Japanese of Caucasian standards. She is inclined to be egotistical and likes to talk about herself. Her attitude in front of strangers is quiet and demure, but she "knows the wiles of a woman." She claims to dislike her "profession" and would rather not talk either about it or her family. Because of the kind treatment she received as a prisoner from American soldiers at Myitkyina and Ledo, she feels that they are more emotional than Japanese soldiers. She is afraid of Chinese and Indian troops.

LIVING AND WORKING CONDITIONS;

In Myitkyina the girls were usually quartered in a large two story house (usually a school building) with a separate room for each girl. There each girl lived, slept, and transacted business. In Myitkyina their food was prepared by and purchased from the "house master" as they received no regular ration from the Japanese Army. They lived in near-luxury in Burma in comparison to other places. This was especially true of their second year in Burma. They lived well because their food and material was not heavily rationed and they had plenty of money with which to purchase desired articles. They were able to buy cloth, shoes, cigarettes, and cosmetics to supplement the many gifts given to them by soldiers who had received "comfort bags" from home.
While in Burma they amused themselves by participating in sports events with both officers and men, and attended picnics, entertainments, and social dinners. They had a phonograph and in the towns they were allowed to go shopping.

PRIOR SYSTEM;

The conditions under which they transacted business were regulated by the Army, and in congested areas regulations were strictly enforced. The Army found it necessary in congested areas to install a system of prices, priorities, and schedules for the various units operating in a particular area. According to interrogations the average system was as follows;
1. Soldiers 10 AM to 5 PM 1.50 yen 20 to 30 minutes
2. NCOs 5 PM to 9 PM 3.00 yen 30 to 40 minutes
3. Officers 9 PM to 12 PM 5.00 yen 30 to 40 minutes
These were average prices in Central Burma. Officers were allowed to stay overnight for twenty yen. In Myitkyina Col. Maruyama slashed the prices to almost one-half of the average price.

SCHEDULES ;

The soldiers often complained about congestion in the houses. In many situations they were not served and had to leave as the army was very strict about overstaying. In order to overcome this problem the Army set aside certain days for certain units. Usually two men from the unit for the day were stationed at the house to identify soldiers. A roving MP was also on hand to keep order. Following is the schedule used by the "Kyoei" house for the various units of the 18th Division while at Maymyo;
Sunday -----------18th Div. Hdqs. Staff
Monday ----------Cavalry
Tuesday ----------Engineers
Wednesday ----- Day off and weekly physical exam.
Thursday --------Medics
Friday ------------Mountain artillery
Saturday ---------Transport
Officers were allowed to come seven nights a week. The girls complained that even with the schedule congestion was so great that they could not care for all guests, thus causing ill feeling among many of the soldiers.
Soldiers would come to the house, pay the price and get tickets of cardboard about two inches square with the prior on the left side and the name of the house on the other side. Each soldier's identity or rank was then established after which he "took his turn in line". The girls were allowed the prerogative of refusing a customer. This was often done if the person were too drunk.

PAY AND LIVING CONDITIONS;

The "house master" received fifty to sixty per cent of the girls' gross earnings depending on how much of a debt each girl had incurred when she signed her contract. This meant that in an average month a girl would gross about fifteen hundred yen. She turned over seven hundred and fifty to the "master". Many "masters" made life very difficult for the girls by charging them high prices for food and other articles.
In the latter part of 1943 the Army issued orders that certain girls who had paid their debt could return home. Some of the girls were thus allowed to return to Korea.
The interrogations further show that the health of these girls was good. They were well supplied with all types of contraceptives, and often soldiers would bring their own which had been supplied by the army. They were well trained in looking after both themselves and customers in the matter of hygiene. A regular Japanese Army doctor visited the houses once a week and any girl found diseased was given treatment, secluded, and eventually sent to a hospital. This same procedure was carried on within the ranks of the Army itself, but it is interesting to note that a soldier did not lose pay during the period he was confined.

REACTIONS TO JAPANESE SOLDIERS;

In their relations with the Japanese officers and men only two names of any consequence came out of interrogations. They were those of Col. Maruyama, commander of the garrison at Myitkyina and Maj.Gen. Mizukami, who brought in reinforcements. The two were exact opposites. The former was hard, selfish and repulsive with no consideration for his men; the latter a good, kind man and a fine soldier, with the utmost consideration for those who worked under him. The Colonel was a constant habitue of the houses while the General was never known to have visited them. With the fall of Myitkyina, Col. Maruyama supposedly deserted while Gen. Mizukami committed suicide because he could not evacuate the men.

SOLDIERS’ REACTIONS;

The average Japanese soldier is embarrassed about being seen in a "comfort house" according to one of the girls who said, "when the place is packed he is apt to be ashamed if he has to wait in line for his turn". However there were numerous instances of proposals of marriage and in certain cases marriages actually took place.
All the girls agreed that the worst officers and men who came to see them were those who were drunk and leaving for the front the following day. But all likewise agreed that even though very drunk the Japanese soldier never discussed military matters or secrets with them. Though the girls might start the conversation about some military matter the officer or enlisted man would not talk, but would in fact "scold us for discussing such un-lady like subjects. Even Col. Maruyama when drunk would never discuss such matters."
The soldiers would often express how much they enjoyed receiving magazines, letters and newspapers from home. They also mentioned the receipt of "comfort bags" filled with canned goods, magazines, soap, handkerchiefs, toothbrush, miniature doll, lipstick, and wooden clogs. The lipstick and clogs were definitely feminine and the girls couldn't understand why the people at home were sending such articles. They speculated that the sender could only have had themselves or the "native girls" in mind.

REACTION TO THE MILITARY SITUATION;

It appears that they know very little about the military situation around Myitkyina even up to end including the time of their retreat and capture. There is however some information worth noting;
"In the initial attack on Myitkyina and the airstrip about two hundred Japanese died in battle, leaving about two hundred to defend the town. Ammunition was very low.
"Col. Maruyama dispersed his men. During the following days the enemy were shooting haphazardly everywhere. It was a waste since they didn't seem to aim at any particular thing. The Japanese soldiers on the other hand had orders to fire one shot at a time and only when they were sure of a hit."
Before the enemy attacked on the west airstrip, soldiers stationed around Myitkyina were dispatched elsewhere, to stem the Allied attack in the North and West. About four hundred men were left behind, largely from the 114th Regiment. Evidently Col. Maruyama did not expect the town to be attacked. Later Maj.Gen. Mizukami of the 56th Division brought in reinforcements of more than two regiments but these were unable to hold the town.
It was the consensus among the girls that Allied bombings were intense and frightening and because of them they spent most of their last days in foxholes. One or two even carried on work there. The comfort houses were bombed and several of the girls were wounded and killed.

RETREAT AND CAPTURE;

The story of the retreat and final capture of the "comfort girls" is somewhat vague and confused in their own minds. From various reports it appears that the following occurred; on the night of July 31st a party of sixty three people including the "comfort girls" of three houses (Bakushinro was merged with Kinsui), families, and helpers, started across the Irrawaddy River in small boats. They eventually landed somewhere near Waingmaw, They stayed there until August 4th, but never entered Waingmaw. From there they followed in the path of a group of soldiers until August 7th when there was a skirmish with the enemy and the party split up. The girls were ordered to follow the soldiers after three hour interval. They did this only to find themselves on the bank of a river with no sign of the soldiers or any means of crossing. They remained in a nearby house until August 10th when they were captured by Kaahin soldiers led by an English officer. They were taken to Myitkyina and then to the Ledo stockade where the interrogation which form the basis of this report took place.

PROPAGANDA;

The girls know practically nothing of any propaganda leaflets that had been used against the Japanese. They had seen a few leaflets in the hands of the soldiers but most of them were unable to understand them as they were in Japanese and the soldiers refused to discuss them with the girls. One girl remembered the leaflet about Col. Maruyama (apparently it were Myitkyina Troop Appeal), but she did not believe it. Other heard the soldiers discussing leaflets from time to time but no tangible remarks resulted from their eavesdropping. However it is interesting to note that one officer expressed the view that “Japan can’t win this war”.

REQUESTS;

None of the girls appeared to have heard the loudspeaker used at Myitkyina but very did overhear the soldiers mention a "radio broadcast".
They asked that leaflets telling of the capture of the "comfort girls" should not be used for it would endanger the lives of other girls if the Army knew of their capture. They did think it would be a good idea to utilize the fact of their capture in any droppings planned for Korea.

[KirinMan]

http://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/Documentos/report-49-USA-orig.html

Caster dont know if that document is real or not, interesting reading but it is rather hard to understand where it actually came from. The site that posted this "document" is unfortunately in another language, Spanish maybe, and I can not read it.

[caster51]

Caster dont know if that document is real or not, interesting reading but it is rather hard to understand where it actually came from. The site that posted this "document" is unfortunately in another language, Spanish maybe, and I can not read it.
Yesterday 23:14
Origina is correct one.
I think that was written by nikkei soldiers

[KirinMan]

Origina is correct one.
I think that was written by nikkei soldiers

Well hopefully someone here that can read Spanish can confirm that.

[caster51]

so, a spanish knows anout it well?
it is a good information

[KirinMan]

so, a spanish knows anout it well?
it is a good information
Time will tell, and to be honest with you I have a hard time on occasion "trusting" your sources of information.

However I give you credit for finding them.

[caster51]

Time will tell, and to be honest with you I have a hard time on occasion "trusting" your sources of information.
why?
because Japanese is evil and inferior?
Oh poor man!!
are you chinese or Korean agent.
Your nature has revealed itself.
if so ,I consent it:wave:

[KirinMan]

why?
because Japanese is evil and inferior?
Oh poor man!!
are you chinese or Korean agent.
Your nature has revealed itself.
if so ,I consent it

Caster whatever, this gets tiring on occasion and this is one of those occasions.....:smoke: :gulp: :smoke: :gulp: later.

[pipokun]

http://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/Documentos/report-49-USA-orig.html
Caster dont know if that document is real or not, interesting reading but it is rather hard to understand where it actually came from. The site that posted this "document" is unfortunately in another language, Spanish maybe, and I can not read it.

The document is not nothing new at all.
I told you before that you could even find the victor's documents in the AWF.

http://www.awf.or.jp/program/index.html

As I said before, the 5th volume contains lots of the victor's documents in English.

[KirinMan]

The document is not nothing new at all.
I told you before that you could even find the victor's documents in the AWF.
http://www.awf.or.jp/program/index.html
As I said before, the 5th volume contains lots of the victor's documents in English.
Does it justify the actions of the Japanese Government at the time?

Can you honestly tell us here that the Japanese Government is without guilt in regards to this issue?

[pipokun]

Does it justify the actions of the Japanese Government at the time?
Can you honestly tell us here that the Japanese Government is without guilt in regards to this issue?
Nobody justifies it at all. It is only the activist who claims Japan did nothing.

Do you think the activist is fair who forced the victim not to take the compensation and keep agitating Japan did nothing?

[KirinMan]

Nobody justifies it at all. It is only the activist who claims Japan did nothing.


Before I answer this please remember one thing...when you ask a question I do my best to answer it or respond to it, I would appreciate you and others doing the same.:-)


I haven't heard anyone say that Japan has done "nothing", I think the problem is that Japan hasn't done enough.

[Guinea Pig]

The war was over 60 years ago.

There was a war crimes tribunal, which is well completed.

Japan has made agreements with many of the countries in question.

It's time to move beyond the past and focus on the present and future.

Just my opinion.

[KirinMan]

The war was over 60 years ago....

It's time to move beyond the past and focus on the present and future.
Just my opinion.

I agree with you, however one of the problems is how to present and teach the future generations of children in this region what happened.

The governments' intentions on rewriting history is an issue today. Until an acceptable solution is found there will be no satisfactory closure to this episode from Japanese history.

[pipokun]

Can you honestly tell us here that the Japanese Government is without guilt in regards to this issue?

It has been settled for ages, so I don't know why we have to be with guilt now.
I answered your question.

Is Korea fair?

Disclosed diplomatic documents
(http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19018)
At that time when mysteriously the issue broke out 40 years after the war, or even now, the stablity in the Korean Peninsula was/is more important than mere Japan-bashing there. Therefore, Japan did something unnecessary, the private fund stuff.
The nobel prize winner Kim was great to say Korea would never play the history card in the '90. But even for him, he could not disclassify the diplomatic documents that clearly mentioned Japan did compensate, even suggested she should compensate the victim on private basis, but unfortunately Korea declined the Japan's offer and invested the money for their growth.

Onto rewriting history...
Again, look at the documents in the AWF. Japan does not hide anything at all. You can even find documents in which a soldier killed a women out of jealousy, (they were engaged, but I suppose he did not have any understanding on her job, even after they met each other at a brothel), and of course, he was persecuted in the due process, or women got married soldiers even in the turbulent time.

[KirinMan]

It has been settled for ages, so I don't know why we have to be with guilt now.
I answered your question.
Is Korea fair?
Disclosed diplomatic documents
(http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19018)
At that time when mysteriously the issue broke out 40 years after the war, or even now, the stablity in the Korean Peninsula was/is more important than mere Japan-bashing there. Therefore, Japan did something unnecessary, the private fund stuff.
The nobel prize winner Kim was great to say Korea would never play the history card in the '90. But even for him, he could not disclassify the diplomatic documents that clearly mentioned Japan did compensate, even suggested she should compensate the victim on private basis, but unfortunately Korea declined the Japan's offer and invested the money for their growth.
Onto rewriting history...
Again, look at the documents in the AWF. Japan does not hide anything at all. You can even find documents in which a soldier killed a women out of jealousy, (they were engaged, but I suppose he did not have any understanding on her job, even after they met each other at a brothel), and of course, he was persecuted in the due process, or women got married soldiers even in the turbulent time.

Ok then why does the current PM say differently?

[pipokun]

Before I answer this please remember one thing...when you ask a question I do my best to answer it or respond to it, I would appreciate you and others doing the same.:-)

Is Korea fair?

why does the current PM say differently?
Nobody denys or justifies the military brothel.

It was really unfortunate for women that the activist does not care about them. All they are doing is just to politicise the issue. Just look at the issues between Japan and Korea;
the territorial dispute (Japan peacefully suggests we should solve the issue at the Hague), the name dispute on the sea (it is just a name, no Japanese think the sea belongs to Japan), etc...

[Mars Man]

Interesting. . . Really interesting. I don't know how to use the multiple quote function, and I'm too ready for bed now to worry about doing all the manual work, so. . . please forgive me.

I rather liked the presentation given by Guinea Pig there.

I agree with you, however one of the problems is how to present and teach the future generations of children in this region what happened.


The way to teach the future generations of children all over the world, here, there and everywhere, would be for one, to teach that war is a crime ! It always has been, and always will be. That's all that needs be done. The detailed arguments of what did or may have happened due to any war mentality are not so powerful when arguing blame. They are powerful when pointing to the thought of human suffering.

For our great grand children's great grand children's world, we should strive to strengthen the value of human in-group bonding. The in-group is the total of humankind--period. War is a crime, and we can only expect crime out of it.

[KirinMan]

The way to teach the future generations of children all over the world, here, there and everywhere, would be for one, to teach that war is a crime ! It always has been, and always will be. That's all that needs be done. The detailed arguments of what did or may have happened due to any war mentality are not so powerful when arguing blame. They are powerful when pointing to the thought of human suffering.

For our great grand children's great grand children's world, we should strive to strengthen the value of human in-group bonding. The in-group is the total of humankind--period. War is a crime, and we can only expect crime out of it.
I agree with you here yet unfortunately I dont think it will ever happen, there just seems to be something within human nature that makes man want to go out and conquer one another.


@pipokun


Is Korea fair?

I answered your questions about Korea.

[Han Chan]

I agree with Mars Man: We should strive towards making the next generations more peacefull. Actually, both canibalism, incest and peadophelia used to be part of our nature when we were more primitive primates. However, because of what sets us apart from animals (who are 100% nature), we have culture. As we have progressed through cultural evolution we are able to rise above the previous levels. I believe that we are as a species basically social, and now that we are increasing able to interact and communicate across countries and continents, the next step in our evolution could be to make war taboo. It might take some time to arrive at that goal - but: why not try?

[KirinMan]

it is just a name, no Japanese think the sea belongs to Japan), etc...
Ok then in a gesture of goodwill and reconcilliation towards Korea for past wrongdoings how about Japan taking a huge step forward and letting the sea be named to what Korea wants.

The point is that it requires give and take on both sides, also straightforward recognition that this problem and others are major stumbling blocks to true peace and understanding in this region.

Unfortunately there is too much distrust about motives.


It might take some time to arrive at that goal - but: why not try?
I agree with this too.:-)

[Mars Man]

The sentiments being, as they mostly appear to be, in agreement with that of my most recent post, I would then suggest that we discuss ways in which not only Japan--as a nation of people, as oposed to simply a governmental administration--but the whole world can set up the means to at least attempt to instill a fair standard of respect for all sexual orientations--meaning firstly, ALL peoples.

That would have to be on another thread, but I would encourage it. Strictly adhering to the OP of this thread, I'd be moved to think that this should be more so simply for voting, and, if one wishes, explaining the vote. I do not think that any more postitive up-building or practical advantage can come from the line of argument that has swollen up over a matter of historical blame. Let's keep this one for voting.

[KirinMan]

I agree with you here Mars Man, thanks for putting your thoughts here as well. :-)

[caster51]

so their testimoy's is needed in turn
you should bring a doccument of some forced comfort women's comments.
name, age and situation....
then i will give you a opinion.
i think all of their testimony are interesting that is exposed a lie.
thet changed their testimony so many times.

[Mars Man]

I appreciate your posting your thoughts and opinion there caster51 san. Now, if possible, I hope we can move on to the future. . . and not have to say old things again. MM

[GregoryMcGlothern]

I believe that Japan owes an appology to China, and I also believe that China owes an appology to Japan. Japan knows why they need to appologize, China needs to appologize because they only brought up such bad things, not because they feel that now was the best time to clear up the issue, but because they wanted to slander Japans name, thus because of this, I will not be attending the olympics in Chana, unless they give a public appology, and ONLY if Japan also give China an appology first, (sorry Japan, i love you, but you do have to take responsability for these actions, I can't defend something I don't believe in, but I do believe you can do it!)

[caster51]

This is a problem that is occuring actually now.
at first, We should take attention to current problem rather than in the past.
Why do they disregard the problem of happening actually?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/06/MNGR1LGUQ41.DTL
Today
Global sex trafficking is making inroads into the Bay Area
Sunday
"Diary of a Sex Slave," Part 1: Fooled by traffickers in South Korea
Monday
"Diary of a Sex Slave," Part 2: Trapped in Los Angeles
Tuesday
"Diary of a Sex Slave," Part 3: Trying to break free in San Francisco
there are 40,000korean prostitutes in Japan.
so is in USA.
korean gervenment should get them back first.

[GodEmperorLeto]

there are 40,000korean prostitutes in Japan.
so is in USA.
korean gervenment should get them back first.
It is really important that you bring this point up (although it is slightly off-topic, I think it is still important to discuss).

Slavery is illegal in the United States, and has been since the Emancipation Proclamation during the Civil War. However, it still continued into the 1900s, mostly through prostitution. This is one of the reasons prostitution is illegal in most of the United States.

The FBI has a tough time cracking these prostitution slavery rings, but they do, sometimes. The slavery exists under the pretext of indentured servitude these days, but sometimes (especially in the case of prostitutes) it came about through abduction. In all cases, the "slaves" are considered illegal immigrants, although they are not necessarily at fault. Some (especially in orange groves and other plantation-style situations) were promised a life of freedom in America as soon as they "paid their debt". Much of this is referred to as "human trafficking", and it is estimated that just under 1 million people are transported across borders worldwide every year (an estimated 14,000 of those are into the U.S.)

Nevertheless, this sort of thing is considered absolutely and positively illegal and is generally busted up by the FBI and INS when they get the opportunity. Reams and reams of paper with anti-trafficking laws and codes have been produced, but it seems that this is not something that is very easy to enforce, especially because it is not very widespread, despite the incredibly serious nature of the crime.

An interesting TV miniseries, Broken Trail, dealt with the "Wild" West and five Chinese girls sold into prostitution to a cruel madame in a northwestern mining town. The two heroes (played by Robert Duvall and Thomas Hayden Church) intercept the girls and pretty much try to keep them away from the madame's henchmen.

Anyway, this sort of things appalls me, and I find it sickening that slavery and human trafficking persists in my country, especially in light of the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation. That any human could profit from the suffering of others is an abomination and a violation of basic human rights.

[KirinMan]

GEL and Caster can I ask what do you two most recent posts have to do with the historical issue of the "Comfort Women" during WWII?

[caster51]

can I ask what do you two most recent posts have to do with the historical issue of the "Comfort Women" during WWII?
you want to get the past back again?
what do I think about Comfort woman?
comfort women during WW2" were prostitutes like that
It was better than today's.
if history is repreated and We must learna from History as you said, Today's phenomenon is a past repetition.
there is no progress for them
who has a ploblem Actually today.
who is repreating the same thing?
that is my though from comfort women during ww2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9VFiNPe4do

until when was USA subjected by siocentrism?.

[caster51]

it is very interesting
Quick Summary of "Comfort women
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWB-sc1wGV4

Comfort women#2_Why has this become the international issue?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxSepm1A0lg

obeika ,we should study more about that?
I think that is all.

挺身隊（Teishintai) is this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxKFGY85EvM
http://www.amazon.com/Under-Black-Umbrella-Colonial-1910-1945/dp/0801438543

General
My own knowledge of the Imperial Japanese colony originally came from two genres---the systematic detail in history books and the passionate stories of martyrs----and neither of these had prepared me for the gentle humor as my father -in -law recounted his early life page xi
The reader will notice that some lives are presented as full chapters and some are reflected in vignettes on a topic. This system developed because many people, it turned out, lived ordinary lives. Interview after interview began with sentences such as, "Nothing much happened to me. The Japanese people were not bad. We got along. It was the police that bothered us. I just stayed out of their way. ." However, these same people had small bits of salts and pepper tucked away in their interviews that, when gathered together, added dimension to the larger picture.pare 5
This is a largely different picture of Korea from the perspective we get from Korea as of now. Many people suppose that there is deep hostility between Japanese and Koreans esp with the older generation who remembers the occupation. And Koreans were supposed to live under severe oppression, and many were independent fighters. and pro-Japanese were exception. But the truth is that "nothing much happened" was the average response. I guess anti-Japanism as we know it now was largely made up in Korea after 1945
comfort women
(*I'll pick up the topic that interested me.)
Thousands of young, unmarried Korean women were mobilized into the Voluntary Service Brigade and told they would help the war effort as nurses or factory workers. Instead, they found themselves taken to "comfort stations" at the war front and expected to provide sexual services for the soldiers. if they refused, they were beaten and denied food. After the war, the shame of being a "comfort women" kept those women silent and only recently have they begun to tell their stories.
Most of the women who talked with us said they never heard of "comfort women" when they were young. "I guess it was because I lived in such an urban area" one said."They didn't collect girls in big towns " Others said they were too young to hear about it, or too removed from the mainstream. Our women hinted at another possibility---the girls simply never learned the truth until it was too late page 133
Note that most of the women interviewed didn't know it. And there are only two person s in the book that mentioned the comfort women. There must be also villagers among those interviewed. but there is no testimony who witnessed an woman abducted into the brothels. T
And it seems many Korean and this author are confused about comfort women with Teishintai.
女子挺身隊（じょしていしんたい）は、1943年に創設さ れた14歳以上25歳以下の女性が市町村長、町内会、部落 会、婦人団体等の協力によって構成されていた勤労奉仕 団体のこと。政府は翌年の1944年に勅令第519号をもっ� ﾄ、女子挺身勤労令を公布したが、1945年3月に国民勤労 動員令によって吸収されたため挺身隊は国民義勇軍に再 編成された。韓国では慰安婦と混合されることがあるが 両者は全くの別物で関係ないwiki
Translation
The woman Service Brigade is the voluntary service association set up in 1943 incorporation with mayors, town managers, and village headmen, a neighborhood association, village society, consisting of women from 14 to 25. The government promulgated the decree for the woman work force ( the decree 519)but the decree was absorbed in the national mobilization act in March 1945 and Teshintai was restructured into a nation voluntary army. In Korea, it is sometimes confused with comfort women, but they are completely different and have nothing to do with each other.
for further detail see this article(in Japanese)
This is clear if we read the following testimony.
Kim P[ANONYMOUS}....My aunt was only seventeen , but she had to hurry up and get married to avoid being drafted. It wasn't the "comfort women," but some sort of war effort group. If you were married, you didn't have to go.
So in her aunt's village it was not voluntary. It depends on when it happened.
But it is possible there were cases where woman "voluntary" brigade was forced in substance. But the point is their job is not sexual service but to work in factories.
The following also confuses Teishintai with comfort women.
.....
Kim PONGSUK...When I was twenty, the local Neighborhood Association.....came to verify my age and marital status.
I had no choice but to acknowledge that I was young, single, and living at home. The next thing I knew, the local police came and summoned me to appear at the elementary school yard on a certain date......They told us that the pay would be very good and we would be well taken care of....I hated this! I wouldn't want to go. My parents decided I should get married and then I wouldn't have to go. So I obeyed my parents and got married. ....Mush later I found out that the women who went overseas to the front were forced into being comfort women. Japanese called these Teishintai, meaning "Voluntary Corps."
This is the story about Teshintai. But she said she found out they were forced into being comfort women. How much later did she find it out? About 50 years later when the media picked it up? or does she mistakenly relate the following episode to Teshinatai above?
She continues.
I also know about them because my husband met many Korean woman serving the soldiers i Manchuria when he was drafted into the Japanese army and sent to the front line. ......My husband, having just married me and missing me, and also seeing that these comfort women were Korean women of the same age as me, when his turn came to go in to them, his physical desire was there, but he kept thinking of me, and he didn't do it.
The men lined up outside barracks doors where the women were, and took their turn. The girl just lay there inside. Each man had a given amount of time, about seven minutes. If he wasn't out in time, the next man went right in and yanked him out. Each door had a long line of men waiting their turns. But when my husband's turn came,
he just couldn't go in and do it.
The woman, on the wall near her head, used chalk or a pencil to make a mark for each
solders she serviced. She thought she would be paid that way, but it turned out they were not paid anything at all. page 135
There was a comfort station, and Korean women worked there. The point is whether they were systematically abducted by Japanese troop as often alleged. So far, there is no evidence to support it;on the contrary, there is an evidence that Japanese troop regulated illegal pimps.
Other than that, there are three points to note in this recollection.
1 Korean men used the comfort station, though her husband might not have used it.
2 Comfort women were expecting that they would be paid.
3 If the comfort station was as described, the situation was horrible for the women.
It means not all the comfort stations are like the one described in the US report
about it in 1944.

[KirinMan]

obeika ,we should study more about that?
I think that is all.


Caster I am not ignoring you here, I am just not up to any deep discussions tonight. Sorry about that, I'll get back to you at another time about this.

[frostyg02uk]

Hmm i think during war things become blurry as to what is right and wrong. Did japanese soldiers rape women? comforts or not if they did thats wrong and not a war crime but a crime no matter what situation the country is in. Should the current people of Japan suffer for what happened more then 50 years ago? IMO unless its a soldier who is still alife and linked to it no they shouldnt. Lets get one thing clear IF it had of been on the other foot would Chinese or korean soldiers do the same, probably. War no doubt brings out the worse in men, soldiers boobytrap dead or wounded soldiers, torture others for information and bomb hospitals and places of worship just to make the enemy lose moral, heck many of the posters come from america i bet, a country who used the A bomb in a race of who Japan would surrender to them or the old enemy Russia. I think its Ok to judge others from the past while most of us have ever only known peace from our armchairs and have no room to judge. I feel the arguement of these comfort women is just one step of dissatified governments, if its not this they are talking about visiting the dead soldiers graves or denial of certain parts of history. Of course its hard to move on but using these things as political tools is something to be shameful of also. getting 8million isnt justice its getting paid off and if thats where their pioritys lay i cant symphais too much.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

frostyg02uk,

You are right, I guess that I am the only one of this Forum who really was a war victim during WWII, that was when Japan did occupy the former Dutch East Indies, now Indonesia. My Dad and my uncle were killed by the Kempeitai. My mother came out of that war with psychical problems, it was through my indestructible optimism that she came through those years in our concentration camp.

And me too, I had to stand there in a line while Japanese officers looked us girls over and then took some of us to a brothel in Semarang. I know one of them.

You will not hear me blaming the whole Japanese nation, last of all the young ones, they have nothing to do with WWII, I only hope that they will read about it with an open and honest mind.

But I do blame the Japanese war criminals from during World War Two, they have been extremely cruel.

Last but not least; Compensations are okay for material loses during WWII, that includes, golden jewelery, houses, banking accounts, furnitures, you name it.
No one on earth can compensate me the death of my father through the Kempeitai. That is prohibitive!

Compensation for the "comfort women" ? Very painful!

[pipokun]

The Semarang case was a horrible one, of which many adovocates claim it is the evidence, but it was an isolated example.
You know the brothel was closed down soon after the Japanese higher ranked officials knew the situation, don't you? (Of course, it was before the end of the war)
And it was horrible that soldiers concerned were persecuted in the local war criminal court. Do you need more blood?

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Oh pipokun,
You told me that before and yes I did already know all about this trial.
And yes, the Dutch girls and women stayed there around 2½ in that brothel.
Yet, I am more than grateful that I wasn't one of them!

Pipokun, when one commits an offence, one gets persecuted.
Those young women and girls have been punished for a lifetime.

Your last remark; "Do you need more blood?" is childlike.
No it is worse, it gives me a look into the young Japanese hearts.
It shows bitterness, a sort of stubborness of not wanting to say: "We did wrong during World War Two".
You can then continue saying; "But I am from another generation and I believe in peace!"

I guess that you can't even believe me when I tell you once again:"I came out of that horrible war without any feeling of hatred towards the Japanese people". I am standing very far above any form of hatred pipokun, so no thank you "I don't need more blood" but I would like some understanding for those poor girls and young women, today called "comfort women". And not only for the Dutch girls because they were Europeans, no for all the poor girls
who were abused during WWII.

[pipokun]

It shows bitterness, a sort of stubborness of not wanting to say: "We did wrong during World War Two".
You can then continue saying; "But I am from another generation and I believe in peace!"

Just see the post-war Japan. According to tons of media, I am living in a far-right, ultra-militaristic or whatever country, but just count how many people Japanese soldiers killed after the war.
When you bring up your personal story (though I highly apprecieate your story) or you say the isolated example, the blame game will never end.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

The thread is about çomfort women', but okay I shall try to answer.

While people and media never stop talking about the war crimes Germany commited, that same media in the world hardly ever talks about the Japanese war crimes.
But you mean that nowadays the 'comfort women' stories are hot item in the newspapers all over the world? That is about time, 62 years after WWII.

I can use my own war story, because I was there and could see everything with my own eyes. Don't need the media from 2007 to know what was cooking in those days.

I don't feel sorry for Japanese war criminals, nor for any other war criminals.
But I do feel sorry for the poor people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I do feel sorry for the Japanese women and children who had hardly anything to eat during WWII, since most of the food went to the Japanese Army.

I guess that it is not done in Japan to blame grandfathers and great-grandfathers for what happened during the war. Better deny it all so that they can rest in peace.

[junjunforever]

thank you for your story elizabeth.


As for pipokun, you keep saying these horror stories are "isolated" examples. But they are not. The massacre of nanking is flat out denied by some ultra rightist, and those that admit that happened, merely point out that the generals involved did not have direct order from the government, and so it was only an "isolated" example. Unit 731, which is largely documented, were also an "isolated" example. Then, the "Death March" in the Philippines were probably another isolated example.

There are too many of these "isolated examples". Either way, japanese government needs to do what the germans have been doing. Build museums of the history, of the cruelty of japanese imperial army. They were quick in making two peace museums about the atomic bomb, but the government is still reluctant to admit their wrongdoings.

[pipokun]

There are too many of these "isolated examples". Either way, japanese government needs to do what the germans have been doing.

Why your country does not play French or British roll?
It was your govenment who had kept silent to the public that she spent the money from Japan for your economic growth. Do you think it is fair? South Korea even demanded the North share because the South was the only legitimate govenment.

Elizabeth van Kampen, you probably know the Dutch government or any other European countries did not pay any compensation at all like what Japan did to Korea.

[hanachan]

Elizabeth-san,
Japan paid 10,000,000 dollar to Dutch government in 1950s.
(It might be not easy for Japan to pay at that time.)
When Indonesia made independent, Dutch government demanded 6,000,000,000 dollars from Sukarno.
If you never received any money, you should make claim for payment in your government.

I've just read Rudy Kousbroek's "Het Oosindisch kampsyndroom".
(Japanese title is different from original's :西欧の植民地喪失と日本)
He was also a prisoner of Japanese army in Indonesia just like you.
He was a witness of Japanese brutal behavior and such...
However, his point of view is different from yours Elizabeth-san.
If you have a chance to read it, I want to hear from you how you think about this book.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hallo Hanachan,

Rudy Kousbroek, yes I even have two books written by him.
He is a good writer, he is very intelligent and on many points I agree with him.
But not all camps were the same, I had the bad luck not to be in one of the better camps, like Kousbroek. Banyu Biru 10 was a prison, a very dirty prison.
Rudy Kousbroek is from a rich Dutch family who grew up in luxery on Sumatra.
His whole family came alive out of the war.
My family, the Van Kampen's were not rich at all, I was not brought up in luxery. I lost my father during the Japanese occupation.
Kousbroek could study after the war, but my mother did not have money enough to let me even finish highschool.

Now the Netherlands!
I am so happy you mentioned the big amount of money Holland received from president Sukarno. Holland had been occupied by Germany, there was a lack of everything, so president Sukarno's money has been used to build up Holland again. I don't mind that.
But don't forget that president Sukarno nationalised all the Dutch belongings,
also the bank accounts, that includes my Dad's savings.
The Japanese dollars had to be divided over 300 000 former Dutch East Indies people. Rudy Kousbroek didn't need the money, but my mother did.

But I am happy you mentioned all this. On the 8th of December 1941 the Netherlands declared war on Japan because of Pearl Harbor.
The people in the former D.E.I were certain that America would protect them especially the island Java. But no American troops came to us from the moment Singapore fell in Japanese hands. Mr. Churchill ordered that as from then on all the protection and army troops had to be send to Australia.

Holland was occupied by Germany, so the Dutch women and children had to stay in an unprotected Indonesia. The Dutch army was more like a police-army, keeping order on the islands.

This year, the 12th of January the
Dutch government has said that they will not pay us at all!!

The British, Australian, New Zealands, Canada's and Norway governments have paid their war victims each $ 20.000

The people coming from the D.E.I. paid the bill.

But that is just talking about money. I personally would be more than satisfied, even be happy with a letter from the Japanese government in the Dutch newspapers that there have been quite some war crimes committed in the former D.E.I by the Japanese Army, especially by the Kempeitai, towards innocent Dutch citizens.

Rudy Kousbroek was protected by his father on Sumatra, they were in the same camp.
I had to protect my mother and two younger sisters, all the responsibility was on my shoulders. I did not get the chance to learn Japanese, I had to carry heavy stones, work on the land with malaria, I was a slave.

But I am far more angry with Holland than with Japan!!!

[frostyg02uk]

Hm Elizabeth i think your a person to be admired. I never lost a single person from WW2 as my family are orginally from ireland or Australia one of which was neutral But i can say IF i was in your place i dont think i could be so forgiving (towards todays Japanese). I believe its good to forgive but im ashamed to say i dont think i could. Even more so if my family were a victim of hiroshima. When i went to Japan i was suprised to how well they took to americans and also american culture. At the time i asked my girlfriend how can the people of Japan act like this? i was almost angry. But she told me that the 2 cities being bombed was the price they paid for their war and for being the losers of that war. At the time i thought little of the answer but now i sit here and wonder. Did the women and children of Hiroshima burn in the streets because their generals were using comfort women? was that the price they paid? Even now babies are born deformed because of past DNA that was exposed to radiation. Governments pay millions and say sorrys to the expense of their pride but i think its only the people that suffer due to others ideals and ambitions. If i think of it in the sense of thousands disapearing into the heat in seconds because of their leaders it makes me want to cry. I feel if this is price they paid then its settled.

[hanachan]

Elizabeth-san,
Thank you so much for your reply.
Sorry, I was impertinent to you sometimes.
I'm just starting to understand you.
I like hearing your stories.
Nice to see you here.
Thanks.

P.S.
I've been to Holland once. In 1995, I changed air plane for Muenchen at Amsterdam. 3 hours stay in your country, inside the airport. :)

[caster51]

I think most japanese think Netherlands in indonasia was more was crueller than japanese against Indonesian

[Bucko]

I think most japanese think Netherlands in indonasia was more was crueller than japanese against Indonesian

Are you joking? Please tell me that you're a troll and that you don't actually believe this. From what I know, yes, the Indonesians initially did welcome the Japanese, however because the Japanese army was so cruel and barbaric this attitude soon changed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Occupation_of_Indonesia#The_occupation

[caster51]

Are you joking? Please tell me that you're a troll and that you don't actually believe this. From what I know, yes, the Indonesians initially did welcome the Japanese, however because the Japanese army was so cruel and barbaric this attitude soon changed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_eZxs4Ln8w
why are they sing a song in Japanese
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvoC0R7WV_8
The Heroes of Indonesia : National Revolution 1945
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHRyiPjc5E8
I am sure The Japanese also did to indonasian cruel.
However, Japan did not treat them as an animal .
Japan did them as a Man

[hanachan]

Bucko, Wiki is the free encyclopedia. So the argument is required about its description.
Here you show the history from victor's side only.
Japan or Indonesian side is not prepared yet. (even no translation)
Anyway I don't think that Dutch people were loved so much in Indonesia at that time. Of course individually yes.
Generally, Indonesian people didn't like Dutch people.
After WW2 and still current time, Indonesia and Japan have had a good relationship. It's true. Why?
Do you know what Holland did in Indonesia after WW2? They did not get their independence peacefully.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Holland never ever should have started a war against the Indonesians. They should have sit around the table with president Sukarno and minister Hatta and sign the papers. Since 1947 not one country should be the colony of een other country. I have said it before, this war between the Netherlands and Indonesia, was a very black page in our history.

Only...Indonesia is group of big and thousands of small islands. All the islands are dominated by the Javanese, the island Java.
Papua wants to be free from Java, but that is not allowed. Aceh on Sumatra wants to be free from Indonesia ( Java) but that is impossible.

Before WWII many countries had colonies and and oppressed other nations!
Today some small nations are still oppressed by bigger nations. Tibet?
And in Africa? There is still no peace, there is still war in many places.

Caster51, I pay the school for 13 Indonesian children, 4 on Sumba, 2 in Kalimantan, and 7 in Malang, East Java. I know that education is the best weapon in life. Besides I have always loved the Indonesians more than any other race in this world.
Ah well I do my best in this world, but I can't dp more.

[KirinMan]

I was watching a news program this morning and one of the commentators stated that Japan has a responsibility to acknowledge the fact that if it hadn't been "there" meaning involved in WWII this and other issues, that still haunt the country, would not have occured.

His way of thinking to be at the minimum sounded like, "If we, Japan, hadn't been there in the first place it wouldn't have happened". We have to accept the fact that with regards to this issue, Japan was the reason and cause that it occured.

I agree with his logic.

[frostyg02uk]

Hmm but if you go by that logic everyone would be saying if only hitler hadnt of been here (germany) then WW2 wouldnt of happened.
In a sense hes right if Japan hadnt of been there they wouldnt of used comfort women but that borders on the obvious, simular to saying if man X hadnt of been there he wouldnt of died. As someone said before..or another thread not sure, that americans used comfort women after WW2. so if we talk about it as an issue it still happened just by a different nation. To the victim it doesnt matter who abuses them, its all the same. At this point there isnt much reason to say Ifs, buts and maybes especially ones as obvious as that. If we think about even our own single lives the amount of ifs envolved is endless, If my grandad hadnt of moved to london for work after the war he maybe wouldnt of moved to australia after that work dried up and met my granmother, if they hadnt of moved back to ireland my mother wouldnt of met my dad.

I think WW2 has been the biggest educator against war ever and im sure each nation would rather not of been envolved but facing facts we were envolved and rather then thinking about the Ifs, buts and maybes i think we should keep concentrating on ways to make sure it doesnt happen again and of course where its due trying to settle with victims. What i majorly disagree with though is people using the victims and past crimes as political tools .

[pipokun]

Tell me which program you watched.

[KirinMan]

Tell me which program you watched.
Sunday Morning on TBS

[caster51]

Sunday Morning on TBS

I did not Know you can understand Japanese:souka:

[KirinMan]

Hmm but if you go by that logic everyone would be saying if only hitler hadnt of been here (germany) then WW2 wouldnt of happened.


I agree with what you write, yet recognition that the problem exists and needs to be dealt with is important as well.

It appears to me at least that the current government wants to ignore it and hope that someday it will go away. Yet international pressure appears to be mounting against Japan, most notably from it's largest trading partner, security blanket and largest ally, the US.

[frostyg02uk]

I also agree that it shouldnt be forgotten. I feel the longer you leave a problem the bigger it becomes and i think with the stance on war that Japan now has its important that they make amends with all of the past crimes of WW2. So far i dont think much of Abe the newest PM and i dont see him fixing anything soon but in truth even if he did where would Japan stand anyway? Like ive said before i think Japan should say sorry in the most fitting way but also other countries need to stop using this as political tools and start thinking about the victims other then their popularity.

[pinkichan]

i really feel sorry for the comfort women.. and yes i believe they are true.. the stories are true.. until now many grannies who was treated as comfort women when japanese invaded the philippines has gotten old with the issue unresolved and never getting their justice..

[caster51]

yes i believe they are true.. the stories are true.. until now many grannies who was treated as comfort women when japanese invaded the philippines has gotten old with the issue unresolved and never getting their justice..

again...
i think it belives or not.
it is not a religion matter like belief

[pipokun]

i really feel sorry for the comfort women.. and yes i believe they are true.. the stories are true.. until now many grannies who was treated as comfort women when japanese invaded the philippines has gotten old with the issue unresolved and never getting their justice..
Projects in the Philippines
http://www.awf.or.jp/english/project1.html

[KirinMan]

Projects in the Philippines
http://www.awf.or.jp/english/project1.html
Probably well intentioned however not the government, so not accepted by other than a token few women. Too bad, so sad.

[pipokun]

After the war, the Philippines signed the San Francisco Peace Treaty, legally resolving issues between Japan and the Philippines with regard to reparations, material restitution and the right to claim for war damage. Then in 1956, Japan and the Philippines signed a Reparations Agreement, in accordance with Article 14 (a) 1 of the Peace Treaty. Under that Agreement, Japan provided the Philippines with services and goods valued at the equivalent of 550 million dollars.

This is the reason. Of course, Japan and South Korea reached the post-war agreements quite a long time ago, though it was really sad for the both countries that South Korea had kept it secret to the public.

Look at the other hypocracy like the Agent Orange. The governement have/will never acknoledge it officially, but the victims except the Vietnamese got the out-of-court settlement.

[junjunforever]

well, whats the point about coming to an agreement and denying all wrongdoings.

BTW, a paper is saying that Sophia University professor has called the comfort women prostitutes, and says Japanese wrong doing is only comparable to American bombing of Tokyo and nuclear bombs.

It seriously makes other people wonder, "wasnt it you who started the war and told your pilots to fight until death"? If american hadnt taken such drastic actions, it was obvious the war would not have ended.

[caster51]

If american hadnt taken such drastic actions, it was obvious the war would not have ended.

only inteligent ppls know it :-)

[KirinMan]

well, whats the point about coming to an agreement and denying all wrongdoings
There are those that will say that this issue was covered under the agreements signed so there is no need to doing anything now.

However, due to the extrememly sensitive nature of the issue, and the cultural issues of the people and countries involved it has taken much longer for the enorminty of the issue to fully come to light.

That's why, even with all the side stepping by the Japanese Administration, people throughout the world will not let Japan forget, and rightfully so I think.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Each time I read about the comfort women I can cry.
In January 1944 I had to stand in line with many other women and girls, while Japanese officers looked us up and down. I can still hear the heartrending crying from the women who were chosen by the officers and been taken away from our concentration camp.
Comfort women? Prostitutes? No all the women and girls who have been raped and been abused during WWII by the Japanese army are 100% war victims.

Pinkichan said it well: today they are grannies. But they still feel the pain and the shame for being misused during the Japanese occupation of several countries in Asia.
I feel deeply sorry for each one of all these abused women and girls.

[caster51]

the comfort womwn who followed soldiers
http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/phistory/87000/20070714118434799732442200.jpg
the comfot women who play the mahjong
http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/phistory/85000/20070626118284746468282900.jpg
one of comfort woman saving acount
wow she was so rich at that time
http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/phistory/85000/20070623118261065066009800.jpg

Japan should express gratitude to them for their good service
http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/phistory/82000/20070512117896701995049300.jpg

[KirinMan]

Comfort women? Prostitutes? No all the women and girls who have been raped and been abused during WWII by the Japanese army are 100% war victims.

Elizabeth while I agree with you here I doubt that some Japanese will admit this as true. I believe that they dont see prostitutes as victims.

[pipokun]

Elizabeth while I agree with you here I doubt that some Japanese will admit this as true. I believe that they dont see prostitutes as victims.

In the former Soviet Union, prostition was not illegal, or I should say no law against prostition, because no prostitution in the perfect society. Therefore, there were so many rapes where they occupied in Asia or Europe.
Tell me why the military brothel is illegal.

[KirinMan]

Tell me why the military brothel is illegal.

I have never written here that the brothel was illegal. However I have said and will continue to argue that the manner in which many, most?, of the women were forced into working there was.

That is the entire point of the comfort women issue.

[gaijinalways]

Some of the ex-soldiers still think they didn't do anything wrong if they raped prisoners, because they were following orders from the emperor.:(

Caster51, why do you always assume that all of the women were prostitutes? Do you always believe everything your government tells you? Again, try looking at some other sources, please!

[pipokun]

Some of the ex-soldiers still think they didn't do anything wrong if they raped prisoners, because they were following orders from the emperor.:(
Caster51, why do you always assume that all of the women were prostitutes? Do you always believe everything your government tells you? Again, try looking at some other sources, please!

Bring the source "they raped prisoners" here.

Obeika, the Korean witnesses said their families sold them.
I don't know why they don't blame their family and Korean agents who paid the money.

[KirinMan]

Bring the source "they raped prisoners" here.
Obeika, the Korean witnesses said their families sold them.
I don't know why they don't blame their family and Korean agents who paid the money.

Here is another point, if Japan had not invaded Korea there would have been no reason for the families to sell their children into working in the brothels, so by association the Japanese Military was guilty.

The point is if Japan wasnt there it wouldnt have happened, plain and simple.

Can you justify the actions of the Japanese Imperial Army?

[Mikawa Ossan]

Wait a minute...perhaps I need to do some research, but I was always under the impression that Korea was never "invaded". Although there was some violence in the mix, Korea's annexation was mostly political, not military, in nature.

[KirinMan]

Wait a minute...perhaps I need to do some research, but I was always under the impression that Korea was never "invaded". Although there was some violence in the mix, Korea's annexation was mostly political, not military, in nature.

From what I understand of the history of the period it was the Japanese military that initially invaded Korea and the military rule was ruthless for the first 10 or 15 (?) yrs.

The rest is just semantics, it isnt like the Korean people invited the Japanese to come take over their country now is it?

Also it still doesnt change the point at hand either, if Japan had not been there the issue wouldn't exist. It is that plain and simple to me.

However now we are going to have to see the posts by certain members here turning and twisting the story around to lay the blame on a different country and different era. :okashii::mad:

[frostyg02uk]

I blame France post 2000A.D

;oP

[caster51]

Korean M&A with Japan was requested by koreans biggest politics group first.
off couse some of them were opposite and did violent demonstration like today.

[caster51]

The point is if Japan wasnt there it wouldnt have happened, plain and simple.
Can you justify the actions of the Japanese Imperial Army?
it has nothing to do with Japanese army.

[KirinMan]

it has nothing to do with Japanese army.

Ok I'll take the bait Caster why not?

[pipokun]

...
However now we are going to have to see the posts by certain members here turning and twisting the story around to lay the blame on a different country and different era. :okashii::mad:

No, it was the same era that the US brought Indian women to China after they came to know STD infected Chinese women and praised Aussie military brothels in Palestine because they were well-organised by the military.
I don't justify the military brothel. It was just there.

"if-then" argument is interesting, but just count how many high-ranked military officers from colonised countries. How many Indonesian officers used Dutch people? A Japanese military officer commited suicide after he knew his Korean officer was killed in Hiroshima. And his dead body was quickly sent to Korea in the turbulent period, even for Japanese.

It is a joke that a rich and developed country like Korea cannot meet the US visa waiver program, no visa waiver more than 3% illegal immigarant.

[KirinMan]

It is a joke that a rich and developed country like Korea cannot meet the US visa waiver program, no visa waiver more than 3% illegal immigarant.

Thank you for showing me to be right when I wrote the following.:wave:

However now we are going to have to see the posts by certain members here turning and twisting the story around to lay the blame on a different country and different era


The rest has nothing to do with the Comfort Women issue. So it just helps to reinforce my comment above, thank you!

[diceke]

Wait a minute...perhaps I need to do some research, but I was always under the impression that Korea was never "invaded". Although there was some violence in the mix, Korea's annexation was mostly political, not military, in nature.
Good point! It's called gunboat diplomacy.:souka:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat_diplomacy

[Mikawa Ossan]

That's right, but gunboat diplomacy is very different from an actual invasion!

[pipokun]

Thank you for showing me to be right when I wrote the following.:wave:
...
With pleasure.:wave:

So tell me why the military brothel is an intolorent crime.

[KirinMan]

So tell me why the military brothel is an intolorent crime.
Sorry I am not going to repeat myself here, if you want to re~read my answer about this please go back through this thread to find my response. :wave:

[pipokun]

Obeika, the same again. The witnesses? They clearly claimed it was their families who sold them for money like the ones in the Korean war or the post war Korean history.
The issue mysteriously brought up 40 years after the war when a Japanese writer asserted Japanese kidnapped Korean women.

You have never answered my question.

[KirinMan]

Ok refresh my memory please, what is the question?

[pipokun]

why the military brothel is an intolorent crime?

[KirinMan]

why the military brothel is an intolorent crime?
I thought I answered this on this thread or on the other one related to this issue if I havent let me answer it here now. However if I missed it I apologize.

I have no problem per say with the military brothel's, it's a fact of history that there were "camp" followers during just about every military campaign throughout history.

HOWEVER, to me at least, it is inconceivable that 200,000 women were all prostitutes following the camps of the Japanese military during WWII.

As I have writen before, just because a woman was given money for sex or rape does not make them a prostitute.

MY, point is and always has been the manner that the women were cooerced into servicing the Japanese military. Whether or not a woman or girl was sold into servitude, by their family, because of economic conditions of the time or otherwise, into a military brothel, soley for the purpose of "pleasuring" the Japanese military through sex, whether paid for or otherwise was and is immoral and deserving of recognition as being victims, of the Japanese military during WWII.

To cover up the issue, imo is also immoral.

It happened, whatever the scale, what ever the number of women involved, 200,000 or 20, it happened and no matter what you or anyone else here decides to write against in reply will NEVER change the fact that this issue came about because of the Japanese Imperial Army being where it was at the time period in question.

[pipokun]

So you think the number does not matter, right?
I don't know why I don't hear any strong voices against other brothels like the Japanese adovocate group agitates.
As Prof. Hata, maybe you don't believe what he says, described his field-research in Korea, Koreans said Korean people would have been mad if as many as 200000 women were kidnapped.

Don't worry no Japanese, the far-right or not, deny the existance of the brothel at all, but it is so funny some claim Japan deny the exsistance. It was not a bad compromise for Japan to do the AWF, for the 80' when the issue broke out was the time South Korea became a democratic country and unstable. But it is not fair at all without taking the money and still claim that Japan did nothing.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Well, I learnt one thing from you all; If reincarnation exists then I'll try to come back into this world as a man. Seems saver somehow!

[caster51]

Koreans said Korean people would have been mad if as many as 200000 women were kidnapped.

WOW. it was impossible.
it would be tumult in whole country even at that time.
Only fool believes.
it would not understand the meaning of its number

[junjunforever]

military brothel is unethical, but what japanese imperailist army carried out is not a military brothel. They captured women raped them, and forced them in the so called brothels.

Just read a news that they found more evidence of this happening, this time in guam. U.S. (militar?) court then judged that japanese soldiers raped a 17 yeard old girl in front of her parents and forced her into the so-called brothel and had her work in there for 6 month.

I also watching a documentary last week on the death march in the philippines. American and philippino soldiers dying, and some were recruited into other Asain mines. When American forces stormed in, the order was to "kill all american POWs and destroy all evidence" Thankfully, American army got into the main camp before japan could take action, and most of still-surviving soldiers were saved. In the interview the one person said something of this line

"i cant forgive the japanese. I know i should, but how can i forgive someone who denies any wrongdoing?" and he shed tears.

pipokun and caster, i would like you directly tell people like Elizabeth, and others who have actually suffered in the war, and tell them japan did nothing wrong. You gusy have no shame.

[junjunforever]

Japanese government's position changes frequently.

Initial government response and litigation
Initially the Japanese government denied any official connection to the wartime brothels; in June 1990, the Japanese government declared that all brothels were run by private contractors.

In 1990, the Korean Council for Women Drafted for Military Sexual Slavery filed suit, demanding compensation. Several surviving comfort women also independently filed suit in the Tokyo District Court. The court rejected these claims on grounds such as statute of limitations, the immunity of the State at the time of the act concerned, and non-subjectivity of the individual of international law.[24]


Kono statement
However, in 1992, the historian Yoshiaki Yoshimi discovered incriminating documents in the archives of Japan's Defense Agency indicating that the military was directly involved in running the brothels (by, for example, selecting the agents who recruited).[25] When Yoshimi's findings were published in the Japanese media on January 12, 1993, they caused a sensation and forced the government, represented by Chief Cabinet Secretary, Koichi Kato, to acknowledge some of the facts the same day. On January 17, Prime minister Kiichi Miyazawa presented formal apologies for the suffering of the victims during a trip to South Korea.

On August 4 in 1993, Yohei Kono, the Chief Cabinet Secretary of the Japanese government, issued a statement by which it recognized that "Comfort stations were operated in response to the request of the military of the day", that "The Japanese military was directly or indirectly involved in the establishment and management of the comfort stations and the transfer of the women" and that the women "were recruited in many cases against their own will through coaxing and coercion".


On 2 March 2007, the issue was raised again by Japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe, in which he denied that the military had forced women into sexual slavery during World War II in an orchestrated way. He stated, "The fact is, there is no evidence to prove there was coercion." Before he spoke, a group of Liberal Democratic Party lawmakers also sought to revise Yohei Kono's 1993 apology to former comfort women.[31][28]




japan has never truly apologized for its wrong doings. they are nazis of asia... currently in ruling. Thank god most japanese people are sensible enough to not kill foreginers even if abe and its imperalistic government gave orders to do so.

[Masamune_74]

Japanese government's position changes frequently.

Initially the Japanese government denied any official connection to the wartime brothels...On January 17, Prime minister Kiichi Miyazawa presented formal apologies for the suffering of the victims during a trip to South Korea...japan has never truly apologized for its wrong doings. they are nazis of asia... currently in ruling. Thank god most japanese people are sensible enough to not kill foreginers even if abe and its imperalistic government gave orders to do so.

HMMMM...did I read this right??

"Thank god most Japanese people are sensible enough to not kill foreigners."

How about the U.S.??

Don't mind me just playing devils advocate here.

By the way it's not nice to call people Nazi's even if they did subscribe to that political sect decades ago. I wouldn't call you a slave master.

[pipokun]

junjunforever, tell me when you government disclasified the diplomatic documents which clearly states South Korea obtained the money from Japan.
The Kono statement was really stupid. Both parties should have just confirmed what Japan paid. But it showed great consideration to the new democratic county then.

Do you think your govenment is fair without having said it to the public for such a long time?

they are nazis of asia
You don't have to be too emotional. You think the military brothel is unethical, right? Why don't you sue the UN or the US who (has) stationed your country and built up tons of brothels?

[Halewijn]

Junjunforever means they were unethical because the women were recruited in many cases against their own will.

[Masamune_74]

I am not trying to downplay what happened, it happened and it was horrible. However, there are a few things that I would like to voice.
1)Shame on the parents/family members who "sold them"
2)As previously stated this has happened anytime one country invaded another.
3)Why was North Korea left out of the money (or were they, I am not sure)?
4)On January 17, 1993 Prime minister Kiichi Miyazawa presented formal apologies for the suffering of the victims during a trip to South Korea. Was this a formal apology or not?
5)Has anyone here heard this happening with any other countries ie. Russia, Germany, England???

[Halewijn]

You know what Shinzo Abe said earlier this, right? Comfort women still don't get true recognition from the Japanese government.

[Masamune_74]

so then maybe they should just give them a big GOMENASAI

[pipokun]

5)Has anyone here heard this happening with any other countries ie. Russia, Germany, England???

No Russia during the WWII, but there were the military brothels run by many countries.
When the Allied released African nations from the Axis, did they also release women from the brothels?

Halewijn
You know what Shinzo Abe said earlier this, right? Comfort women still don't get true recognition from the Japanese government.
What is the true recognition? Only adovocate groups are claiming like you.

[KirinMan]

Only adovocate groups are claiming like you.
Watch out using over generalizations please.

I am pretty sure that Halewijn is not an advocate group, just an individual giving their opinion about this topic.

What is the true recognition?

Mmm I do not think that you really need an answer for that, I think you already know the answer to your own question. Go back and read through this thread and you will find the answer there.

[hanbei]

I am angry at the arrogance of the US House of Representatives for blaming Japan on a historic issue irrelevant to US directly.
American should acknowledge their miserable history and the present atrocity in Iraq.

We Japanese blame America for slaughtering good citizens in Hiroshima and Nagasaki with atomic bomb. You American should recognize yourself as the most atrocious rascal in the history. Your criminal deeds were not only the atomic bombings, but also enslavement of African people, blood shedding in Vietnam and Iraq, the discrimination of colored races at the present day in your own country and boosting the cycle of bloodshed with arms export in the whole world.
You American are the pack of hyena which had tore up the resources of Native American.
You American has no eligibility to accuse Japan for comfort women problem in the world war two, which was fabricated by false testimonies.

You American have justified yourself by saying that the atomic bombs were used for sparing the lives of millions people.
Needless to say, your paradoxical excuse was the absolute bullshit added after the ending of the war.
The truth was that the atomic bombings had been conducted mainly for the experimental purpose to assess the destructive capability of the atomic bombs, and the experiment had been conducted on the ground of the racial prejudice. (Richard Rhodes. 1986. The Making of the Atomic Bomb. Simon and Schuster.)

[Uncle Frank]

Guess we know where you studied your history.

Uncle Frank

:okashii:

[Calypso Freemo]

It's a stupid subject, you weren't there, you can't comment. If you want to treat people with of the past with dignity, at least give them the dignity of owning and surviving through their own stories with out a bunch soft cocks moralising about their lives on the basis of something they read in a book or a on a web page. People seeking reparation today for so called horrors of the past is all the fashion- it says nothing about the past, it only tells us about the present. Hell, I want to sue the queen of england and all for English atrocities to the Kingdom of Scotland, don't get me started right. People are just too bleedin bored these days, and might i say, too bleedin boring...

[Sukotto]

We Japanese blame America for slaughtering good citizens in Hiroshima and Nagasaki with atomic bomb. You American should recognize yourself as the most atrocious rascal in the history. Your criminal deeds were not only the atomic bombings, but also enslavement of African people, blood shedding in Vietnam and Iraq, the discrimination of colored races at the present day in your own country and boosting the cycle of bloodshed with arms export in the whole world.
You American are the pack of hyena which had tore up the resources of Native American.
You American has no eligibility to accuse Japan for comfort women problem in the world war two, which was fabricated by false testimonies.

You American have justified yourself by saying that the atomic bombs were used for sparing the lives of millions people.
Needless to say, your paradoxical excuse was the absolute bullshit added after the ending of the war.
The truth was that the atomic bombings had been conducted mainly for the experimental purpose to assess the destructive capability of the atomic bombs, and the experiment had been conducted on the ground of the racial prejudice. (Richard Rhodes. 1986. The Making of the Atomic Bomb. Simon and Schuster.)



Actually, it was done to intimidate the Soviet Union (http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0803-26.htm) - perhaps, which of course sucked.

And most of the stuff you mentioned above is done by the ruling class oligarchy that rules, not only the US, but also pretty much the world, via the legal privilege constructs called corporations (http://poclad.org/) and also through the World Bank and International Monetary Fund.
It's why even in the US (http://narcosphere.narconews.com/story/2007/7/10/152646/087) family farmers cannot find their vegetables in the super market, but only corporate agribusiness.


NOT TO HIJACK THE THREAD.
I WON'T RESPOND TO ANY RESPONSES FOR THIS REASON

[Calypso Freemo]

I agree with you.
I think The problem is the future.
however. it is also the oldest business.
There are million of prostitutes Voluntary in the world .
What should we distinguish?

If you all want to ***** about it, why not ***** about capitalism which inadvertantly channels millions of woman and children into sex work. Or current forms of social grouping which inadvertantly makes woman and children vunerable to be exploited sexually, or the moralistic civilised society bulshit of modern thinking which gives the whole sex industry the legs it needs to stand on...hell there's plenty to ***** about, why ***** about this?

[Sukotto]

It's a stupid subject, you weren't there, you can't comment. If you want to treat people with of the past with dignity, at least give them the dignity of owning and surviving through their own stories with out a bunch soft cocks moralising about their lives on the basis of something they read in a book or a on a web page. People seeking reparation today for so called horrors of the past is all the fashion- it says nothing about the past, it only tells us about the present. Hell, I want to sue the queen of england and all for English atrocities to the Kingdom of Scotland, don't get me started right. People are just too bleedin bored these days, and might i say, too bleedin boring...



But the saying goes,
if we do not learn from the past.....
we are doomed to repeat it.


And, since history is NOT over,
not by a long shot,
we still have much to learn.

If we ignore the past, we may wind up with lots of really bad entertainment brought forth by the powers that be.

[Dutch Baka]

This is about comfort women, not about the bomings of Nagasaki and hiroshima and neither about America in Iraq... keep it on topic, and keep it nice.

[junjunforever]

junjunforever, tell me when you government disclasified the diplomatic documents which clearly states South Korea obtained the money from Japan.
The Kono statement was really stupid. Both parties should have just confirmed what Japan paid. But it showed great consideration to the new democratic county then.
Do you think your govenment is fair without having said it to the public for such a long time?
You don't have to be too emotional. You think the military brothel is unethical, right? Why don't you sue the UN or the US who (has) stationed your country and built up tons of brothels?

this really infuriates me.

u did not even read my post. Like i said THE MONEY IS NOT THE PROBLEM.

Its your (and perhaps the attitude of japanese politicians) attitude that if they pay money, its all solved.

Once you change your history books and correctly apoligizes to all the war criminals, ban the nazist/racist thoughts and fire your nazist politicians, i will, and all those who were raped, guaranty you that no one will care about money.







To Masamune
1)Shame on the parents/family members who "sold them"

There are cases where families sold their daughters, and there are cases japanese soldiiers just raped them and took them away by force. Besides, the reason why they sold them is because japanese stole the land away by force, and caused them into go into a war which china, philippines or korea had no interest in. Why should chinese suffer for japanese bombing of pearl harbor?


2)As previously stated this has happened anytime one country invaded another.
Yes. But in most cases, they actually apologize for it, and teach the history instead of hiding it.


3)Why was North Korea left out of the money (or were they, I am not sure)?
This isnt the issue. U.S. senate doesnt care whether north korea gets money or not. They jsut care about all the casualties of the war.

4)On January 17, 1993 Prime minister Kiichi Miyazawa presented formal apologies for the suffering of the victims during a trip to South Korea. Was this a formal apology or not?
It was a formal apology, but then they are retracting the apology, and like i said, japanese students are not being taught about the war atrocities.


5)Has anyone here heard this happening with any other countries ie. Russia, Germany, England???
The debate here is not what japan has done in the past, but what they are doing in the present to correct the problem. I cant speak for russia, but germany has repented its wrong doings throughly. Japan has refused to ackowledge any wrongdoings.

[junjunforever]

I am angry at the arrogance of the US House of Representatives

well, amnesty international doesnt think so. and surely, their opinion is more valued than your or mine. The only difference is that i agree with AI.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/news_press_release,149080.shtml

[Mars Man]

. . . ban the nazist/racist thoughts and fire your nazist politicians,

Please do be careful here with this, junjunforever san. I would suggest that this is far too close to going over the line of argumentation that we'd hope to have here. Thank you for your consideration.

Again, I think just about everything that we all can say about this matter here and now, has been said here on this particular thread. It would be good for those who are coming to it new, to take the time, and go back and read through it all. This thread is primarily for presenting our opinions, and then backing them up to a degree.

[KirinMan]

With absolutely no animosity, anger, or ulterior motive in mind I would like to ask our Japanese friends posting on this thread one rather important, in my opinion, question.

What will you accept as evidence?

Simple question, hard answer possibly, probably, I don't know. However I hope that the responses do not have any finger pointing, nor references to other issues, including but not limited to Hiroshima or Nagasaki, the US military using military brothel's or anything not related to this subject.

Only about the Japanese and it's part in the Comfort Women issue please.

[junjunforever]

Please do be careful here with this, junjunforever san. I would suggest that this is far too close to going over the line of argumentation that we'd hope to have here. Thank you for your consideration.
Again, I think just about everything that we all can say about this matter here and now, has been said here on this particular thread. It would be good for those who are coming to it new, to take the time, and go back and read through it all. This thread is primarily for presenting our opinions, and then backing them up to a degree.

ok. since you want me to stop draggin this issue, i will try to restrain myself. But here is why i called certain japanese politicians a "nazi"

Ishihara, the governor of Tokyo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shintaro_Ishihara

Ishihara stated in a 2001 interview with women's magazine Shukan Josei that he subscribed to a theory that "old women who live after they have lost their reproductive function are useless and are committing a sin," adding that he "couldn't say this as a politician." He was criticized in the Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly for these comments, but responded that the criticism was driven by "tyrant" "old women."[15]

During an inauguration of a university building in 2004, Ishihara stated that French is unqualified as an international language because it is "a language in which nobody can count," referring to the counting system in French, which he believed to be based on units of twenty rather than ten (as is the case in Japanese and English). The statement led to a lawsuit from several language schools in 2005. Ishihara subsequently responded to comments that he did not disrespect French culture by professing his love of French literature on Japanese TV news. [16]

In a highly publicized statement at the Tokyo International Anime Fair on March 25, 2006, he said: "I hate Mickey Mouse. He has nothing like the unique sensibility that Japanese animation has. The Japanese are inherently skilled at visual expression and detailed work."[17][18][19]

On April 9, 2000, in a speech before a Self-Defense Forces group, Ishihara publicly stated that atrocious crimes have been committed again and again by illegally entered sangokujin (Japanese: 三国人 (third country national); a term commonly viewed as derogatory) and foreigners, and speculated that in the event a natural disaster struck the Tokyo area, they would be likely to cause civil disorder.[13]

On February 20, 2006, Ishihara also said: "Roppongi is now virtually a foreign neighborhood. Africans ― I don't mean African-Americans ― who don't speak English are there doing who knows what. This is leading to new forms of crime such as car theft. We should be letting in people who are intelligent."[14]

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe he has made enough comments to be qualified as a xenophibic politician at the least, and a "nazi" at the worst.

[Mars Man]

Thank you for your reply there junjunforever. I am aware of some of the stuff that Ishihara has said. There are other comments by political figures which fall close or within the same range as his. Nevertheless, it may not be good to use blanket statements that tend to, or are too easily seen as generalizing and thus throwing the whole lot into the same basket.

That, is the point of my concern. Very precise, and specific wording and identification is a different matter.

Thanks again. Talk to you later. MM

[Han Chan]

ok. since you want me to stop draggin this issue, i will try to restrain myself. But here is why i called certain japanese politicians a "nazi"
Ishihara, the governor of Tokyo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shintaro_Ishihara
Ishihara stated in a 2001 interview with women's magazine Shukan Josei that he subscribed to a theory that "old women who live after they have lost their reproductive function are useless and are committing a sin," adding that he "couldn't say this as a politician." He was criticized in the Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly for these comments, but responded that the criticism was driven by "tyrant" "old women."[15].........On February 20, 2006, Ishihara also said: "Roppongi is now virtually a foreign neighborhood. Africans ― I don't mean African-Americans ― who don't speak English are there doing who knows what. This is leading to new forms of crime such as car theft. We should be letting in people who are intelligent."[14]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe he has made enough comments to be qualified as a xenophibic politician at the least, and a "nazi" at the worst.

I agree that Ishihara is seriously xenophibic and insensitive. However, my biggest surprise is that such a man keep on beeing reelected. The fact that the old useless "dinosaur" politicians keep on beeing reelected have for long for me been an indication that the japanese public were not ready to change their leadership.

However, the recent upper house election result are very encouraging, because so many yonger and female candidates were successfull. May this new generation will also take a different stance towards the WWII past - including Yasukuni and "confort women"?

[hanbei]

With absolutely no animosity, anger, or ulterior motive in mind I would like to ask our Japanese friends posting on this thread one rather important, in my opinion, question.
What will you accept as evidence?
Simple question, hard answer possibly, probably, I don't know. However I hope that the responses do not have any finger pointing, nor references to other issues, including but not limited to Hiroshima or Nagasaki, the US military using military brothel's or anything not related to this subject.
Only about the Japanese and it's part in the Comfort Women issue please.

I believe there might be some brothels catered mainly for soldiers, which were common in the world at that time.
Also, I believe that the all testimonies with ex-whores were fabricated stories urged by Japanese left, Chinese and Korean.
There are rumors the ex-whores had stocked up a big savings owing to their testimonies.
Mr. Honda reportedly received a large sum of money from a Chinese group established for anti-Japanese movements in US.

Comfort Women issue has a wide range of background, including political, ethnic and historical hatreds between Japan versus China and Korea.
If you discuss the matter on narrow points of view, you will reach a wrong conclusion.
Hiroshima or Nagasaki, the US military using military brothel's or other US wrong doings should be included in the comfort women matter, because we Japanese think you should not blame others shelving your own wrong doing.

By the way, why are you pursuing the comfort women matter relentlessly?
Are you a Chinese or Korean origin?
If so, I can understand your behavior.

[KirinMan]

I guess I should have known better but didnt. Just ask a simple question and get a bunch of red herrings in reply. Not totally unexpected but still disappointing that people can not answer one simple question particularly after this much discussion on this thread.

If you discuss the matter on narrow points of view, you will reach a wrong conclusion.
Really now, since you seem to be so smart here, what conclusion do you think is wrong?

Are you a Chinese or Korean origin?
If so, I can understand your behavior.
Behavior? Writing on a message board isnt behavior....however it shouldnt matter one bit what my roots are. People are people no matter the origins, and that is all that matters to me.

[hanbei]

To Obeika:
>what conclusion do you think is wrong?

In your first post, you wrote, “I was amazed at the amount of information, evidence and fact supporting these women's claims against the Japanese Government. “
Your conclusion have based on false stories fabricated by Chinese and Korean. We Japanese know Chinese and Korean do not feel the *****s of conscience to forge “evidence”, which may be obvious from recent Chinese poison foods mess.
I believe there was no coercion by Japanese government or Japanese army into becoming a "Comfort Woman."

>People are people no matter the origins, and that is all that matters to me.

Your origin is very important for understanding the dispute.
Generally speaking, Chinese and Korean American inherit the hatred to Japan from their ancestors as if they have a “hatred DNA”.

[KirinMan]

Your origin is very important for understanding the dispute.
Generally speaking, Chinese and Korean American inherit the hatred to Japan from their ancestors as if they have a “hatred DNA”.

You gotta be kidding me me here.

People dont inherit hatred they are taught it, just the same as you were never educated about your country's wartime atrocities, hence your unwillingness to admit any guilt.

Yet fortunately there are many Japanese that do believe and understand.

[hanbei]

Yet fortunately there are many Japanese that do believe and understand.

I know Japanese communists and the similar lefts, and some liberal politicians such as Yohei Kouno, who is believed to be a victim of Chinese honey trap, criticize Japanese government on the so-called comfort women and other war crimes of Japanese army.
But, the majority of Japanese people including myself call them “the Chinese and Korean puppets.”
We know their aim is to sell Japan to the Chinese communist party for their own profits.

[Han Chan]

I know Japanese communists and the similar lefts, and some liberal politicians such as Yohei Kouno, who is believed to be a victim of Chinese honey trap, criticize Japanese government on the so-called comfort women and other war crimes of Japanese army.
But, the majority of Japanese people including myself call them “the Chinese and Korean puppets.”
We know their aim is to sell Japan to the Chinese communist party for their own profits.
This sounds like what is called "paranoid cold war rhethoric". But we are not living in the cold war era anymore!

During and after the US occupation there were created paranoid stereotypes about the left-wing opposition in Japan, who were all banded as subversive communists. It would seem like there are still some who are stuck in a time warp.

Maybe this is the real reason for the line taken by those who deny any past wrongdooing - including the abuse of women in occupied areas.

[KirinMan]

Hanbei wrote;
But, the majority of Japanese people including myself
Good gracious the mouth of the nation. In my opinion it is arrogant to assume to know what the majority think or feel about an issue as difficult as this.

Personally I would like to see a survey conducted by a reliable media source asking the Japanese public what their opinion is on this subject.

However the manner in which the questions were asked would need to be unbiased in any shape or form. So I doubt that it will ever happen.

[hplaserjet6p]

No media in Japan denies the existence of comfort women. The government recognises its wrong doing. It refuses to pay money, because it consideres all repartition has been dealt with in 1962.

now, where do ppl get the idea that Japan denies its past????
I really want to know.

[KirinMan]

No media in Japan denies the existence of comfort women. The government recognises its wrong doing. It refuses to pay money, because it consideres all repartition has been dealt with in 1962.

now, where do ppl get the idea that Japan denies its past????
I really want to know.
You miss the point it isnt just about the money, and in fact it has less to do with money than with recgonition of the manner in which the women were coorced into the borthel's.

That is something that few if any Japanese politicians or media will recognize as wrong doing.

That's the denial issue, that the Government and Army at the time, was involved in the coorcement, recruitment, management, overseeing, abuse, and rape of these women.

[hplaserjet6p]

You miss the point it isnt just about the money, and in fact it has less to do with money than with recgonition of the manner in which the women were coorced into the borthel's.

So where is the evidence? 200,000 women coerced into the brothels, there must be at least one witness. What are those military adverts recruiting women with high pay? What are those victims who say their families sold them off, or they were kidnapped by koreans? Thats what those politicians are talking about, right?

But Abe said he stands by the Kono statement. He is the head guy, he is Japan. And the public apologise for the atrocities through AWF.

Now, please tell me Japan denies its past.....

[frostyg02uk]

Really this whole thing has turned into a farce. Japan has said sorry before but everytime a Chinese or Korean politician wants to use it to make a name for themselves or get some talks to go their way its brought up again and again. I can imagine some little politican shouting "look mum look Japan and denying it!!"
lol

[KirinMan]

Now, please tell me Japan denies its past.....
I just did, whether you choose to believe it or not is another story.

Oh and the witnesses, what do you call all those women?

[pipokun]

I just did, whether you choose to believe it or not is another story.
Oh and the witnesses, what do you call all those women?

They are honest to say they were sold by their families.

[hplaserjet6p]

I just did, whether you choose to believe it or not is another story.
Oh and the witnesses, what do you call all those women?

They are victims. silly.

[KirinMan]

They are victims. silly.
Sure silly they are victims but more improtantly they are witnesses as well.

Think about that one.

[hplaserjet6p]

????
I merely stated those points questioned by some.

I said PM stands by the Kono statement, and the public apologised through AWF.

I ask you what makes you still think Japan denies its past.
What do you think Japan needs to do to make someone like you to admit that Japan does not deny its past?

[KirinMan]

????
I ask you what makes you still think Japan denies its past.
What do you think Japan needs to do to make someone like you to admit that Japan does not deny its past?
Read through this thread, your answers are there.

[hplaserjet6p]

Kono statement admits military involvement.
Abe stands by the Kono statement.
AWF sent letters signed by PMs admitting military involvement.
Where do i see denial?????

拝啓

手紙や目録 　このたび、政府と国民が協力して進めている「女性のためのアジア平和国民基金」を通じ、元従軍慰安婦の方 々へのわが国の国民的な償いが行われるに際し、私の気持ちを表明させていただきます。
　いわゆる従軍慰安婦問題は、当時の軍の関与の下に、多数の女性の名誉と尊厳を深く傷つけた問題でございま した。私は、日本国の内閣総理大臣として改めて、いわゆる従軍慰安婦として数多の苦痛を経験され、心身にわ たり癒しがたい傷を負われたすべての方々に対し、心からおわびと反省の気持ちを申し上げます。
　我々は、過去の重みからも未来への責任からも逃げるわけにはまいりません。わが国としては、道義的な責任 を痛感しつつ、おわびと反省の気持ちを踏まえ、過去の歴史を直視し、正しくこれを後世に伝えるとともに、い われなき暴力など女性の名誉と尊厳に関わる諸問題にも積極的に取り組んでいかなければならないと考えており ます。
　末筆ながら、皆様方のこれからの人生が安らかなものとなりますよう、心からお祈りしておりま す。
　
敬具

平成13（2001）年
日本国内閣総理大臣 小泉 純一郎
(歴代署名：橋本龍太郎、小渕恵三、森喜朗)

[undrentide]

English translation of the letter from PM Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women that hplaserjet6p quoted is as follows:

The Year of 2001

Dear Madam,

On the occasion that the Asian Women's Fund, in cooperation with the Government and the people of Japan, offers atonement from the Japanese people to the former wartime comfort women, I wish to express my feelings as well.

The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women.

As Prime Minister of Japan, I thus extend anew my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.

We must not evade the weight of the past, nor should we evade our responsibilities for the future.

I believe that our country, painfully aware of its moral responsibilities, with feelings of apology and remorse, should face up squarely to its past history and accurately convey it to future generations.

Furthermore, Japan also should take an active part in dealing with violence and other forms of injustice to the honor and dignity of women.

Finally, I pray from the bottom of my heart that each of you will find peace for the rest of your lives.

Respectfully yours,
Junichiro Koizumi
Prime Minister of Japan

The above translation is available at the website of MOFA (The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan):
http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/women/fund/pmletter.html

More information on "The Asian Women's Fund"
http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/women/fund/index.html

[KirinMan]

Abe stands by the Kono statement.
When did Abe "stand by" Kono's statement?

English translation of the letter from PM Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women that hplaserjet6p quoted is as follows:

Thank you, just fyi this has been posted here on more than one occasion, hplaserjet has evidently NOT read through this thread and is rehashing things that have been discussed ad naseum here.

Next time I would suggest that people read through the thread before repeating things here again.

To continue to do so will only get the mod's or admin here irritated and lock the thread.

[hplaserjet6p]

OK I read :p

Still dont know why people say Japan denies its past.
I guess Im stoopid.:(

[hanbei]

ok. since you want me to stop draggin this issue, i will try to restrain myself. But here is why i called certain japanese politicians a "nazi"
Ishihara, the governor of Tokyo.

Everybody knows nuclear warfare can ruin the civilization.
US had used the nuclear weapons against Japan for the first time in the human history.
US president Harry S Truman had made the devil’s decision.
US government and American people are the devil’s reincarnation continuing their massacres in Vietnam, Iraq and everywhere in the world.
The atrociousness of American people overwhelms "nazi".

We should not forget the fact that US are the most malicious nation in the world for polluting the Earth.

There exist relations between comfort women and atomic bombings.
You have no right to press for Japanese apology on the comfort women issue until you apologize to Japan for the atomic bombings.
You should not blame others by shelving your own crimes.

[hanbei]

To Obeika:

You should confess your origin.
China? Korea?
It is necessary for understanding your true motive to pursue the comfort women issue tenaciously.

[hanbei]

Mr. Honda, a US congress member who has led the comfort women issue, sang a karaoke with an ex-***** in celebration of their victory. This indicates he has a very close relation with Koreans, perhaps involving a big money.
ttp://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2007/08/01/2007080101825.html
(please add "h")

[Han Chan]

Mr. Honda, a US congress member who has led the comfort women issue, sang a karaoke with an ex-***** in celebration of their victory. This indicates he has a very close relation with Koreans, perhaps involving a big money.
ttp://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2007/08/01/2007080101825.html
(please add "h")
Merely because Mr Honda is singing karaoke together with a former "comfort woman" you claim that he is corrupt. How about Aso, whose family made a fortune using korean slave labor? Aso was after all the one who claimed that the US congress resolution were not based on facts. Aso certainly has a very close relation with Koreans, involving a big money.

[hanbei]

I doubt Mr. Honda is corrupt.
Mr. Honda reportedly received a large sum of money from a Chinese group established for anti-Japanese movements in US.
ttp://www.global-alliance.net/
(please add "h")

His true name is "Hongda", not "Honda".
We Japanese don't inscribe "g" for one's name in such a manner.
It is a Korean manner.
Perhaps, his ancestor is a Korean who immigrated to Japan, and then US before WW2.

Also, there are rumors the ex-whores had stocked up a big savings owing to their testimonies.

[Han Chan]

I doubt Mr. Honda is corrupt.
Mr. Honda reportedly received a large sum of money from a Chinese group established for anti-Japanese movements in US.
ttp://www.global-alliance.net/
(please add "h")

His true name is "Hongda", not "Honda".
We Japanese don't inscribe "g" for one's name in such a manner.
It is a Korean manner.
Perhaps, his ancestor is a Korean who immigrated to Japan before WW2.

Also, there are rumors the ex-whores had stocked up a big savings owing to their testimonies.

Even if your speculation regarding Mr Hondas origin indeed turned out to be true, I can not see how it should influence anything.

The link you gave is for an NGO - I can certainly not see that it should be a "Chinese group established for anti-Japanese movements in US".

Anyhow, thanks for the link - it has a lot on credible information. I will recommend it to anyone who want to know more about this issue: http://www.global-alliance.net/

[hanbei]

To Han Chan:
If your name "Chan" is a true name, it may indicate your origin is Chinese.
"Chan" is a derogatory term to Chinese in Japan.

I know almost all Korean and Chinese hate Japanese as if they have a "hate gene."
If Mr. Hongda is a Korean origin, it accounts all his behavior.

>>The link you gave is for an NGO - I can certainly not see that it should be a "Chinese group established for anti-Japanese movements in US".

Don’t you see Chinese characters on the top of the web site?
It is obvious the NGO is a Chinese related one.
Then, it is definitely anti-Japan strongly biased with hate..

[hplaserjet6p]

To Han Chan:
If your name "Chan" is a true name, it may indicate your origin is Korean.
"Chan" is a derogatory term to Korean in Japan.
Chan = chinese, not korean.
if you are going to embarass yourself, why dont you do it properly.

[hanbei]

Chan = chinese, not korean.
if you are going to embarass yourself, why dont you do it properly.
I am sorry. I have mixed up.

[KirinMan]

To Obeika:

You should confess your origin.
China? Korea?
It is necessary for understanding your true motive to pursue the comfort women issue tenaciously.

Confess? You make it sound like either being of Chinese or Korean origin is a sin or something.

Search and you will see.:-)

[hanbei]

Confess? You make it sound like either being of Chinese or Korean origin is a sin or something.
Search and you will see.:-)

I believe Chinese and Korean had forged “comfort women story.”
If that was true, their aim might be to make money by judicial action.

I guess you Obeika, Han Chan, caster51 and undrentide are Korean origin.
ttp://newsbbs.d.paran.com/BIN/nbbs.cgi?cmd=v&board=2&num=2722&page=6&form=n1_gcafe
(please add "h")

If you are not Koren origin, you should explain why you and other three were gathering on a Korean web site.

I think that the comfort women issue is related heavily on the Japan-and-Korea-conflicts.
It is essential for understanding the dispute whether you are Korean origin or not.

[KirinMan]

Chinese and Korean have forged “comfort women story.”
It is the crime for making money.
I guess you Obeika, Han Chan and caster51 are Koreans.
ttp://newsbbs.d.paran.com/BIN/nbbs.cgi?cmd=v&board=2&num=2722&page=6&form=n1_gcafe
(please add "h")
Now, all queries are cleared.

Now like I wrote in my previous post do a bit of research on this board and you can probably figure out the answer to your question.

Are you familiar with the phrase associated with making assumptions? You assume too much about me.

And that is as far as I go in "telling" you about my heritage.:-)

[frostyg02uk]

Hanbei stay around a little and learn a few things before opening your mouth. your just making yourself sound thick now and any arguement you did have cant be taken seriously now anyway.

PS; Before you assume that i am anything look at my flag, my city and if doubts are still there my photo from that section. ^-^

[Han Chan]

To Han Chan:
If your name "Chan" is a true name, it may indicate your origin is Chinese.
"Chan" is a derogatory term to Chinese in Japan.

I know almost all Korean and Chinese hate Japanese as if they have a "hate gene."
If Mr. Hongda is a Korean origin, it accounts all his behavior.

>>The link you gave is for an NGO - I can certainly not see that it should be a "Chinese group established for anti-Japanese movements in US".

Don’t you see Chinese characters on the top of the web site?
It is obvious the NGO is a Chinese related one.
Then, it is definitely anti-Japan strongly biased with hate..

I will not try to debate any further with hanbei as I find it a waste of time, and I expect that he will be banned from this forum very soon.

For those who are curious about why I am called Han chan: It is somewhat like Aka chan or Shin chan. Because my japanese friends and in-laws find that I speak like a child they gave me the nickname Han (short for Hans) chan (like little dear one). Actually I explained this yesterday in another thread:
I speak japanese more or less like a child - thats why people call me Han chan.:wave:

When I argue for beeing straight about the past, however unpleasant it might be, I do it because I think it will in the long run be the best for all - both japanese and other. I do not hate japanese on the contrary my relation to Japan is based on love.
:love:

[Mars Man]

Thanks for helping out by editing #477 hanbei san. I really appreciate it--although prevention is better than fixing.

Now, as I have said before...and I hope all who have been posting here will take it to heart. I really do not see this thread's being able to clear up any more forest than whatever degree of forest it already has.

The purpose, if I have it straight, was to have a place where those posting today (as opposed to those who had posted on the older threads related to this issue) could simply post their opinions--as it is a poll--and then give a short statement as to why they thought the way they thought. In that Obeika san allowed a degree of arguing points here, we could say that doing so is just fine. I presently find that by doing so further, however, and perhaps most unfortunately, will only lead to us getting stuck in the mud, that the car's belly is resting on the hard part between the ruts.

I would suggest, please, that if any one locates, comes across, or through thorough investigation has any NEW data to present, to do that, along with a brief application of it towards their previously stated opinion. I hope to make the effort to have all newcomers who are interested in posting on this poll also read this post, and act in accordance with it.

I hope I do have active posters' agreement here. I hope we can all work together as JREFers to keep this thread (and of course all others too) productive, polite, presentable, and focused. Thanks for your helping out !! Mars Man

(and this post is obviously as a member here on JREF, of course, but with much greater emphasis on the position of moderator)

[Han Chan]

If you are not Koren origin, you should explain why you and other three were gathering on a Korean web site.
I newer posted anything at any Korean web site. The Hanachan who posted there, might be the same Hanachan who is posting at this site, however I am sure that she is japanese.

Now that you have once been willing to revise your previous posts, I suggest that you could now go back and delete your previous statements regarding me beeing Korean or Chinese. I have allways been honest about beeing Danish and I do not like to be called liar - based on a misunderstanding.

I think that it is important to clean up this thread, and let people start voting in the poll and posting their reason. However, I do think that everyone should refrain from making hatefull and insulting remarks.

[hanachan]

I newer posted anything at any Korean web site. The Hanachan who posted there, might be the same Hanachan who is posting at this site, however I am sure that she is japanese.


Hi Han Chan!
It's not me. I've never posted at Korean web site.
hahaha... Please "google" the word --- hanachan! You will get a lot of "hanachan".
"花子", "hanako", "hanachan"... A typical or symbolic name of a Japanese girl.
and hanachan is also my Bull Terrier.

To hanbei san,
I understand some of what you wrote, and agree with some of them.
However, your recent posts are troublesome and strange.
Please read carefully other posts, Han Chan is a good understanding person for Japan and Japanese. I'm sure that he is fair.

[Astroboy]

Sometimes I wonder why Japan has to continue to apology about the wartime things ..... while it had already settled them officially and diplomatically in the light of international law long time ago. The funny thing is the demand for Japanese aplogy seems to occur periodically.

I believe there must be something political behind the scene.

[caster51]

South Korean sex worker Anti-Law demonstration
Let us have prostitution!
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=vAhgEtODH-A
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=CfqkGsiITXY&feature=related
If you pay money, it would not need to forced them even at that time


Man Faces Federal Charges in a Sex Ring in Minnesota
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/17/us/17brothel.html?ex=1355547600&en=85ec5399dbba37ac&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
I was forced?
dont tell a lie

i want to go to Japan as a prostitute
http://www.chosunonline.com/article/20050704000011

http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/pfree/350000/20071221119818861379073700.jpg

[Sensationalist]

Regarding comfort women,

Sobbing Koreans, Japanese in denial, wartime conspiracy, money, apologize all sound entirely dishonest in my opinion. It's dishonest when a grown woman, who claimed to have been raped by Japanese soldiers sixty years ago, can go before the House of Representative and demand recognition and money for her suffering. She can sit there all teary eyed pointing her finger at the Japanese government for crimes that every modern western nation has committed in the name of expansionism and domination thorough-out the entire world !

What's the difference ? You pay a prostitute for sexual services and then everything is OK ! You rape a women that you found walking the streets at night because you could and because you had the power to do so because so. Sixty years later that same lady sues the government for money and then the problem of "war time atrocities and rapes" goes away, only until money is needed once again ! Money, money, money...apology accepted on this premise alone.

[Chi65]

Excusing rapes this way is really disgusting.

I would give any woman the right to go against it, any which way.
Regarding the trauma of several ones for years after, plus the shame, connected with this brutality, its only understandable, if they let their voices out, when finally encouraged.

You obviously have no idea, how it feels to be handled like them, being raped in such a way, for example when so young, as many were and also virgins. They were no prostitutes first, they were forced to become one, against their will and without any way to escape this, hold like animals.

How would you like that, if someone would do that to you?. . .

Anyone, who had a far minor experience, is by law allowed to go to court nowadays, and has a good chance to win. Women are not just wiling cows or targets, war or not. You seem to have a major problem, seeing this, even excusing this, and only from male point of you. I wonder, that you are not ashamed!

Do you ever consider the deep hurts, you do to women, ignoring them as humans?
Even if some were forced to hard labour during war, they can get some relief by going to court nowadays here, while something even worse, like continuous most brutal rape, should be NO issue??
Are you human, after all, that you can say this? I wonder. I really do!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-UwU1-RVWs

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

You obviously have no idea, how it feels to be handled like them, being raped in such a way, for example when so young, as many were and also vigins. They were no prostitutes first, they were forced to become one, against their will and without any way to escape this.


It is a lie.:D
She proved it.
In 1992,
They demanded return of postal savings 26145 yen,
At a Japanese court of law
They said,"The savings which I earned by prostitution".

When this news was heard, I was dumbfounded.:eek:
I do not believe their testimonies since then.
The liar South Korean prostitute's testimony is not believed.
I do not understand.

[Chi65]

Who, please?
and who is "they"?
Please give clear proofs and links.
Otherwise its worthless.

We had some here way after 1992. . .

[Sensationalist]

Excusing rapes this way is really disgusting.
I would give any woman the right to go against it, any which way.
Regarding the trauma of several ones for years after, plus the shame, connected with this brutality, its only understandable, if they let their voices out, when finally encouraged.
You obviously have no idea, how it feels to be handled like them, being raped in such a way, for example when so young, as many were and also vigins. They were no prostitutes first, they were forced to become one, against their will and without any way to escape this.
Anyone, who had a far minor experience, is by law allowed to go to court nowadays, and has a good chance to win. Women are not just wiling cows or targets, war or not. You seem to have a major problem, seeing this, even excusing this, and only from male point of you. I wonder, that you are not ashamed!
Do you ever consider the deep hurts, you do to women, ignoring them as humans?
Even if some were forced to hard labour during war, they can get some relief by going to court nowadays here, while something even worse, like continuous most brutal rape, should be NO issue??
Are you human, after all, that you can say this? I wonder. I really do!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-UwU1-RVWs


No, I don't know how it feels to push a basketball through my cervix and I don't know what it feels like to get raped either. Judges and law makers are not supposed to based their judgment off of feeling, just in case you've forgotten. The law must be objective and must apply to all peoples, genders, race, and religions. Your argument, and the arguments of hundreds of so called comfort women is based solely off of emotion and self pity with very little solid facts. At best, most of everything you have is impirical and nothing more(...e.g. where are the rapist ? And when did the Japanese government ever sanction rape ?). Who are you seuing. Do you pull your evidence off of youtube and then post it up here as facts ?

Sure, there were comfort women all through-out asia, but to point your "A" moral finger at Japan is stupid. Why can't these so called comfort women condemn rape and prostitution for all women all over the world. Why should they pick one country and one cause !? Why ? It's for money , pure and simple, money because they know Japan will pay millions, and has been paying millions of yen for years. Had Japan been a poor country there would've never been a comfort women issue !

[Chi65]

Sure, there were comfort women all through-out asia, but to point your "A" moral finger at Japan is stupid. Why can't these so called comfort women condemn rape and prostitution for all women all over the world. Why should they pick one country and one cause !? Why ? It's for money , pure and simple, money because they know Japan will pay millions, and has been paying millions of yen for years. Had Japan been a poor country there would've never been a comfort women issue !

Who is raped by whom, is surely not mistaken to go to the one who did it, that the usual way. Who calls this stupid is stupid himself, sorry to say.
your respectlesness is stunning and addds to the picture. This why is in fact very strange thus too.
What you can answer is to demonstrate, how japanese women were raped by Koreans, and thats the only answer.
Japan has not paid millions for years for this, sorry to say. I doubt very much, that money is the only issue, the first one was simply getting at least an excuse, which took Japan a long time to even come to this. I happen to have very good relations to the Koreans here in Berlin, was in Korea myself several times (as much as in China and Japan), and am pretty well informed and can get more informations any time, also from the befriended Korean embassy (I am also befriended with the Japanese embassy and the Chinese one, by the way)
The video was only one at present available example of many more known things around the world.
But I was more referring to the facts of the past and that had nothing to do with the money issue for me, by the way. You must not mix things up in your uncontrolled heat.

Going with others in consequence, also worldwide, is also common and does happen as well, as we can see on many occasions.
But we are on the Japanese thread, and as such it is a theme here, what happened here, as much, as it would be a theme for germans on a german forum, or whover was hurt by us, for example, who were raped via Germans. with the same rights, simple logic.

The rest is flamings from you and does not add much to making you more reliable, in fact, you seem to be of those that think, they can get away with this.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Who, please?
and who is "they"?
Please give clear proofs and links.
Otherwise its worthless.
We had some here way after 1992. . .

1944
American strategic Secret Intelligence Service (OSS) of the United States Armed Forces
Report No. 49: Japanese POW Interrogation on Prostitution.
http://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/Documentos/report-49-USA-orig.html


The evidence that a prostitute showed in Shimonoseki court.
http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/ttalk/480000/20061115116359623271034900.jpg

[Sensationalist]

Who is raped by whom, is surely not mistaken to go to the one who did it, that the usual way. Who calls this stupid is stupid himself, sorry to say.
your respectlesness is stunning and addds to the picture. This why is in fact very strange thus too.
What you can answer is to demonstrate, how japanese women were raped by Koreans, and thats the only answer.
Japan has not paid millions for years for this, sorry to say. I doubt very much, that money is the only issue, the first one was simply getting at least an excuse, which took Japan a long time to even come to this. I happen to have very good relations to the Koreans here in Berlin, was in Korea myself several times (as much as in China and Japan), and am pretty well informed and can get more informations any time, also from the befriended Korean embassy (I am also befriended with the Japanese embassy and the Chinese one, by the way)
The video was only one at present available example of many more known things around the world.
But I was more referring to the facts of the past and that had nothing to do with the money issue for me, by the way. You must not mix things up in your uncontrolled heat.
Going with others in consequence, also worldwide, is also common and does happen as well, as we can see on many occasions.
But we are on the Japanese thread, and as such it is a theme here, what happened here, as much, as it would be a theme for germans on a german forum, or whover was hurt by us, for example, who were raped via Germans. with the same rights, simple logic.
The rest is flamings from you and does not add much to making you more reliable, in fact, you seem to be of those that think, they can get away with this.

Here is the problem Chi65, and I know you'll try and refute this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Basic_Relations_between_Japan_and_the_Re public_of_Korea

If you have the capacity to read and understand that link stated above you can clearly see and understand that both the Korean and the Japanese government reached a settlement on all war related issues. From this fact, it's no longer Japans responsibility to acknowledge or pay money at all, to anyone and that included the comfort women. The Japanese have no legal or moral responsibility to recognize anything that happened anymore since both governments agreed to settle this problem through MONEY ! MONEY ! and more MONEY ! Filthy money ! The only reason the Koreans are screaming for an apology is because of money. If Japan were to officially acknowledge and or accept responsibility for what happened during the war then they'd be paying billions and billions of dollars worth of reparations for decades just like Germany has been.

If theses comfort women want justice then they should demand it from their own government in Korea, ask them where all that ODA money went when they were trying to build subways and super highways and high rise buildings.

[Chi65]

You should be very ashamed, after what is known to the world!!

Don't run around the pot, look into it!

[Chi65]

The evidence that a prostitute showed in Shimonoseki court.


Don't come with Burma here, its not the same woman either. . .we talk about Korea and Japan at present, and thats not the answer to your above statement.
I am really not impressed by zigzagging, and the way, some women are still called here in this thread.

It looks, as if the same brutality from then lives on in some.

You guys only make me vomit.

Have you ever heard about human rights?

[Sensationalist]

Don't come with Burma here, its not the same woman either. . .we talk about Korea and Japan at present, and thats not the answer to your above statement.
I am really not impressed by zigzagging, and the way, some women are still called here in this thread.
It looks, as if the same brutality from then lives on in some.
You guys only make me vomit.
Have you ever heard about human rights?


["It's not the same women,"] weren't other asian women allegedly raped and forced into prostitution ?? What makes the Korean or the Chinese story more compelling then their stories ? It's money ! They care nothing about an apology. If the Koreans can make a story big enough then the end result is a cash pay out.

In North America, there is a history of sexual slavery and abuse against African Americans, did those people get a formal apology from the U.S. government for years of state sanctioned brutality and rapes ? What about
African American "comfort womens' issues?" In the case of Korea and China, it was part of the spoils of war to force women into prostitution and slavery. That wasn't the case during the North Atlantic Slave Trade. Human beings were forced to sleep with and pro-create with their masters whether they liked it or not, or face brutal beatings and even murders.

You're story is nothing more than a plea for money and pity !

[Chi65]

["It's not the same women,"] weren't other asian women allegedly raped and forced into prostitution ?? What makes the Korean or the Chinese story more compelling then their stories ? It's money ! They care nothing about an apology. If the Koreans can make a story big enough then the end result is a cash pay out.
In North America, there is a history of sexual slavery and abuse against African Americans, did those people get a formal apology from the U.S. government for years of state sanctioned brutality and rapes ? What about
African American "comfort womens' issues?" In the case of Korea and China, it was part of the spoils of war to force women into prostitution and slavery. That wasn't the case during the North Atlantic Slave Trade. Human beings were forced to sleep with and pro-create with their masters whether they liked it or not, or face brutal beatings and even murders.
You're story is nothing more than a plea for money and pity !

Since I personally have never mentioned the money aspect before, only the excuse one, as you can read clearly, if you only try, I rebuff that nonsense, that you wish to project onto me.

Also this is not an african nor US forum thread, thus its of no relevance here, because that is other people's concern and absolutely no excuse for some japanese behavior.

Its not spoils of "war", its spoils of humans on humans, such cheap excuses from you were absolutely NO reason for stopping the Nuernberg processes in Germany, for example. In contrary, according to human rights.
The facts, that others did it too, did NOT give anyone the right, to also do and accept it.

Actually, there is something like Schmerzensgeld (try to find a translation, please), that is very well an issue (and VERY official reason in severe cases!) for lawsuits. We have this all the time, all over the world. And the Schmerzensgeld is defined by the amout of emotional terror, pain versus the present material ability of the one, who caused this. There would generally be nothing wrong at all, to claim it thus, if they so wish.
If the japanese law does not have this term, then it is beyond human rights, by the way, and may well become an international issue, if that comes out to the open.
Thats, why also Germans have to pay for other pains than just forced prostitution, like slave working as one other example. Some lawsuits are still not all cleared, but on the table, and many claimers win them. Nothing new.

If you judge all those hurt ones by one case (and that was not even the posted video one), that may have come out as a lie (although it might have been only partly, I am sure, because it says nothing about, how it all started for her), it does in no way say, that all other cases were too. Its just a very closeminded generalisastion to think so.

You may as the next step say, that all women wish to be raped, since you are obviously not opposed to this. . .I would not be surprised, to hear this rubbish here.

And once you make a woman a prostitute by force, that does not give you the right afterwards, to blame her for being one, because she is trapped and thus forced into this. In contrary. We have several cases here of for example russians, trapped that way, and its always a very severe crime-case, against those, who trapped and forced them, not the women!
Any woman, who does it by free choice on the other hand, is accepted for this and also does have a lobby now for longer already.

The difference lies in violated or not. And if violated into this, she has a right to sue the violator, as simple as that.

Its really a shame for some in Japan, that such things cannot be seen for what they are, and how easily women get degraded there by some. That tells me a lot about you and your kind.
I happened to be I other circles in Japan, and am in other circles here. And thus I only "give" it to those, who obviously violate human rights, be it by thoughts (I fear, such cynic people do not just leave it by being a thought, but in general act accordingly, very bothersome and no good reference for Japan in general, such people ad a lot to the dark views about Japan in the world, which I do not wish to happen, by the way).

Of course, such people live everywhere, also here, but they have no chance to say this openly here, they would have their according reaction. For example those, who spread out, that the holocaust did not happen. They are strictly forbidden, to do this now. If it is found out, that they go on however, they will be sued, by Germans!

Japan seems to be far from this, as I can see now. Weird indeed.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Don't come with Burma here, its not the same woman either. . .we talk about Korea and Japan at present, and thats not the answer to your above statement.
I am really not impressed by zigzagging, and the way, some women are still called here in this thread.
It looks, as if the same brutality from then lives on in some.
You guys only make me vomit.
Have you ever heard about human rights?
:blush:
Request by false evidence is a crime.
This is fraud incident.
Before you tell human rights,
Inspect a fact.
I collect data in various ways,
Check that there is not contradiction.
A remark of other people is not evidence.
It is the logic based on data.

[Chi65]

:blush:
Request by false evidence is a crime.
This is fraud incident.
Before you tell human rights,
Inspect a fact.
I collect data in various ways,
Check that there is not contradiction.
A remark of other people is not evidence.
It is the logic based on data.

What is one such "crime" against a multiple one on the other side?

Would you like to talk to those, who have the datas here?
The embassies and Universities, also around the world, who also collect and pass on?
You can do so any time.

I trust independant professors and directly violated ones more than you, just as an example.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Is not fraud a crime?
"She was kidnapped,"
"She was raped,"
"She was imprisoned,"
Such she,
Why was she able to deposit large sum of money every month?
Their testimony contradicts it.
I showed evidence of the contradiction.