Comfort Women What do you think?

[KirinMan]

Alright, there is another thread under this topic regarding the issue of the "Comfort Women"
Comfort Women Thread On JRef (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65&page=4)
What I want to know from everyone here is which side of the issue do you believe to be true.

I did a "google" using "Comfort Women" and came up with 26,000,000 results;
Comfort Women on Google (http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=en&q=comfort+women)

I was amazed at the amount of information, evidence and fact supporting these women's claims against the Japanese Government.

Don't let me influence your "vote", please read a few of the stories and look at the link to the thread here on JRef, there are some posting here that refuse to accept that this occured, and others that are just as strong in their views that this "fact" can not and should not be brushed under the table.

If you want to comment about this issue itself please do so on the "other" thread, put your vote here and if you want place a comment as well explaining why you did so.

Please don't push this thread off topic; keep to voting only.
Please note; on poll option three I wanted to write; I BELIEVE that the overwhelming majority were coerced into becoming a "Comfort Woman"

[leonmarino]

21 views, 0 replies.. Seems like this is a very controversial topic. :relief:

I found this (http://japanfocus.org/products/details/2373) to be a very insightful document, with proper sources. It's hard to deny something happened there and then, and that coercion was involved.

[Ma Cherie]

I believe the women of course. Not only due to the fact that there's tons of evidence that indicates these women were tricked and coerced. But because during times of war, raping women or using them as sex slaves is apart war. Specifically when you're invading another country, rape is often used a weapon.

[KirinMan]

Please remember it is a multiple choice poll! Thank you.

[caster51]

I BELIEVE that the Japanese Government owes compensation as well as an apology to these women.
about a decade ago...
Japanese Government requested permission to make amends to them one by one voluntarily to the South Korea government.
however korean government refused it because it was a strong diplomatic card for them

[KirinMan]

.
about a decade ago...
Japanese Government requested permission to make amends to them one by one voluntarily to the South Korea government.
however korean government refused it because it was a strong diplomatic card for them

So, then you too admit that these women were coerced into becoming "comfort women" as well, otherwise what need would there be to apologize in the first place?

I notice in the poll so far that only one person voted that they do not believe the women. I take it that was your vote Caster?

[DoctorP]

It is a public poll...if you click on any of the numbers to the right of the poll it will show you who voted for what category.

[KirinMan]

It is a public poll...if you click on any of the numbers to the right of the poll it will show you who voted for what category.

Thanks, even though I initiated the poll I was unaware of that. Thank you.

One thing that I notice so far is that some people believe the claims, yet dont believe that the Japanese Government owes them any compensation.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Many girls and young women have been used by Japanese military in the occupied countries by Japan.
Several young women have been taken out of my concentration came Banyu Biru 10, in January 1945, in Central Java, Indonesia. They were brought to Semarang to please the Japanese officers. I know one of those ladies, she is now 84 years old. Her story is a very sad story and it is one of the many stories. Alas.

[Sukotto]

I believe the women of course. Not only due to the fact that there's tons of evidence that indicates these women were tricked and coerced. But because during times of war, raping women or using them as sex slaves is apart war. Specifically when you're invading another country, rape is often used a weapon.


In a judgment that is likely to have far-reaching implications for war crimes trials in Rwanda, Kosovo and East Timor, the tribunal elevated systematic rape from being a mere violation of the customs of war to one of the most heinous war crimes of all - a crime against humanity.
Friday, February 23, 2001 in the Guardian of London (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0224-02.htm)

It's about time, huh?

[KirinMan]

The judgment will give hope to thousands of surviving "comfort women" used as sex slaves by Japanese soldiers during the second world war who have been fighting in vain for recognition and compensation from the Japanese government.

Yet in reality "new" laws can not be used for crimes committed over 60 years ago. So I wonder what hope these women would gain from it.

However I hope that it gives them some measure of comfort in knowing that finally crimes like this particularly against women and girls will no longer be overlooked or brushed under the carpet of time.

I am surprised somewhat that people who voted in the poll so far see that the government "owes" these women nothing, apology or compensation.

I would ask them, do you think that this event even occured?

[Ma Cherie]

Friday, February 23, 2001 in the Guardian of London (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0224-02.htm)
It's about time, huh?


They waited until 2001 to pass this? Well I suppose it is about time. But it could have happened much sooner.

[Sukotto]

They waited until 2001 to pass this? Well I suppose it is about time. But it could have happened much sooner.


I don't think we've really come all that far from white male property holders making the decisions in our societies.
I should probably add "straight" to that as well.
imo, you could replace the 'property holders' with 'corporate stooge' or something and get a clearer picture of the world.


POLL:
I didn't check the third one on the list, because I do not know enough historic details with regards to the phrase "by many means".

[KirinMan]

didn't check the third one on the list, because I do not know enough historic details with regards to the phrase "by many means".

Sorry about that in my OP I wrote;

Please note; on poll option three I wanted to write; I BELIEVE that the overwhelming majority were coerced into becoming a "Comfort Woman"

I had to change it because this wouldn't fit in the space allowed.

[Han Chan]

So far one person voted for all 6 categories. This obviously nonsense, as question 1, 3 and 5 are opposite to 2, 4 and 6. Either the one who answered in this way is not taking the issue serious or maybe s/he has a very unique way of reasoning?
:-)

[KirinMan]

I would be interested in hearing the thoughts of the person who voted that they believe in the claims that these women are making but do not believe that the Japanese Government owes them anything.

I find that to be an interesting position.

[DoctorP]

I would be interested in hearing the thoughts of the person who voted that they believe in the claims that these women are making but do not believe that the Japanese Government owes them anything.
I find that to be an interesting position.


That would be me! What is it you expect me to say? I believe the stories, but see nothing that could be gained by an apology by the current administration (who wasn't at fault) or by massive payments to the victims. I could go on and on about this, but as I am the only one that sees it this way, it would be a huge waste of my time.

[KirinMan]

That would be me! What is it you expect me to say? I believe the stories, but see nothing that could be gained by an apology by the current administration (who wasn't at fault) or by massive payments to the victims. I could go on and on about this, but as I am the only one that sees it this way, it would be a huge waste of my time.
I usually hate using comparisons because in this case the situations are very different but in this case a precedent was made when the US Government paid reparations to Japanese families in compensation for their internment during WWII in the US. President Regan apologized and the government paid $1.2 billion dollars and this was in 1988.

Japan could easily do the same. I also feel that very much could be gained, if not at a minimum for the women themselves finally getting some satisfaction that what they went through and experienced is finally "officially" recognized and give them some peace of mind. Isn't that reason enough?

I would hope that you wouldn't think of it as a huge waste of time for you to add your thoughts, as it would also add to the discussion and give another point of view with which to view the issue.

By saying that you agree with the women's claims, but don't think that the government owes them anything, including any further apologies, what are you saying?

Should the government ignore them? Should history no longer "show" that this event occured? Should the revisionists here in Japan bent on changing the "current" view of Japan's wartime history be allowed to erase this from the collective memory of the Japanese people as well?

These are some of the reasons that I personally would be interested in hearing the reasoning for your choices. :-)

[Ma Cherie]

The government at least owes those women some kind acknowledgment. It seems to me they want to pretend that it didn't happen. I think that is what's happening here, this event isn't shown in Japanese textbooks. There's just too much denial.

[Sukotto]

It makes one wonder if there isn't some sort of coersion to bring prostitutes to Japan today? powerful non-govt people or entities?


With not admitting wrong doings of the past, not appologizing, nor compensating for the past, it leaves open a possibility for future wrong doings. Do they wish to leave all their options on the table, or something?

[caster51]

With not admitting wrong doings of the past
it is very simple
I think it does not need admitting what it did not do
It is already like the fact.
Is the way of your trials such a method?
It is important to pile up evidence.

[KirinMan]

it is very simple
I think it does not need admitting what it did not do

You are very correct in saying this, the current Japanese Government is not guilty of committing these crimes. However by using this logic no government could be found culpable for acts that it either committed directly or indirectly in it's past.

This is also a fact, since this issue came to light this government and previous administrations are only guilty of not admitting that the Japanese Administration during WWII and the Japanese Military during WWII were guilty of the crimes of coercing women to use their bodies to service the Japanese military during WWII, either directly or indirectly by allowing it to happen.

Either through direct intervention or through intermediaries such as the "broker's" that were employed to round these women and girls up.

You know, one thing really sticks in my brain that defies logic, if the government of Japan honestly thought that this never happened I can not understand why in the world they allowed a non-government group "Asian Women's Fund" (http://www.awf.or.jp/english/index.html) to be set up to provide compensation for these women in the first place.
Many of the women refuse to accept any compensation from this fund purely because it is a non-government organization.

[caster51]

bring the Objective evidence.
many korean pro. also insist like that
http://japanese.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2004/09/03/20040903000051.html
comfort women were just prostitutes

[Goldiegirl]

My thoughts are as follows...it happened...the current government need not apologise, but needs to admit it happened. I think an apology coming from people who had nothing to do with the actual situation seems lame to me.(IMO) I get the feeling that the women really just want the truth out and that people know what really happened. They want their suffering validated, for people to know what they went through in the war. Too much war is seen through the eyes of soldiers, and their sacrifices....women have long suffered the atrocities of war in shame and silence...

[caster51]

I agree with you.
I think The problem is the future.
however. it is also the oldest business.
There are million of prostitutes Voluntary in the world .
What should we distinguish?

[KirinMan]

I get the feeling that the women really just want the truth out and that people know what really happened. They want their suffering validated, for people to know what they went through in the war. Too much war is seen through the eyes of soldiers, and their sacrifices....women have long suffered the atrocities of war in shame and silence...


It is always women and children that suffer the most in wartime, that is the biggest atrocity imo.

To have the current government admit openly the fact that it happened would open it up for calls for compensation against them for the past atrocities. It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of stituation.

I can understand the government wanting to put this issue behind itself and move forward but until there is an official accounting and openness about the topic it will forever haunt Japanese Administrations in the future as well.

[DoctorP]

You are very correct in saying this, the current Japanese Government is not guilty of committing these crimes.

Enough said!

You know...the more posts that I read by you the more you sound like a previous poster on the forum who was...well lets just say dismissed due to many of his posts.

[Sukotto]

on compensation:

That a given society allowed for such a power structure to form (that of fascist Japanese imperialism) that committed such crimes.
Why should not this society, those with power, both political power and those whom they represent $$, why shouldn't they be held accountable. Numerous people had war crimes tribunals (however unbalanced those tribunals may or may not have been). Recent years in reference to historic Nazi Germany (http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/10629/edition_id/203/format/html/displaystory.html), compensation of some sort was still being taken care of. (personally, I think any corporation dealing in slave labor should have their corporate charter revoked, i.e. the legal license that allows it to exist. -there are some corps around today, since slavery is actually more pervasive today than ever -)

Maybe the corporations that exist now that are some reformation from those that existed then (zaibatsu) should be drained of their yen for the compensation money? It has too widely been dispersed since then and mixed throughout society? Then maybe back to the general tax fund which would draw the money more fairly from the society of today that benefits from yester year. Provided there actually is a progressive tax structure that taxes the most those that benefit the most from society.

[DoctorP]

This should make some of you happy:

Japan's leader says sorry to WWII 'comfort women' (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/J/JAPAN_SEX_SLAVES?SITE=VOICESD&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

"I express my sympathy toward the `comfort women' and apologize for the situation they found themselves in,"

I suspect that this still will not be enough, as it is not an official apology issued by the government of Japan. Nor is there any monetary gain for the victims.

[Sukotto]

I'll have to wait and see what the various surviving comfort women's groups say.

[Han Chan]

This should make some of you happy:
Japan's leader says sorry to WWII 'comfort women' (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/J/JAPAN_SEX_SLAVES?SITE=VOICESD&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)
I suspect that this still will not be enough, as it is not an official apology issued by the government of Japan. Nor is there any monetary gain for the victims.

I hope that PM Abe will finally express himself as clearly as former PM Koizumi did in this letter of apology: (http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/postwar/index.html#issue):

"
Letter from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women

The Year of 2001

Dear Madam,

On the occasion that the Asian Women's Fund, in cooperation with the Government and the people of Japan, offers atonement from the Japanese people to the former wartime comfort women, I wish to express my feelings as well.

The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women.

As Prime Minister of Japan, I thus extend anew my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.

We must not evade the weight of the past, nor should we evade our responsibilities for the future.

I believe that our country, painfully aware of its moral responsibilities, with feelings of apology and remorse, should face up squarely to its past history and accurately convey it to future generations.

Furthermore, Japan also should take an active part in dealing with violence and other forms of injustice to the honor and dignity of women.

Finally, I pray from the bottom of my heart that each of you will find peace for the rest of your lives.

Respectfully yours,

Junichiro Koizumi
Prime Minister of Japan
"

[DoctorP]

What more is needed to say then if these apologies are already out there? Don't misunderstand me, these women were wronged, but what is it that they expect?

What do those of you who support these women expect? Atonement? In what manner? And when will enough be enough?

[leonmarino]

What more is needed to say then if these apologies are already out there? Don't misunderstand me, these women were wronged, but what is it that they expect?
What do those of you who support these women expect? Atonement? In what manner? And when will enough be enough?There has been apologies, yes. However, if the ruling prime minister starts doubting the historical facts and figures, I can understand these victims feel a deep pain all over again. It seems warranted to ask for clarification in that sense.

Also, there hasn't been any compensation for these women from the Japanese government. An independent foundation of some sort was founded indeed to compensate these women, but nothing that is a official embodiment of the Japanese government. Many victims have therefore rejected to accept these compensations, because it is not simply money that they are after, but rather recognition.

[DoctorP]

An independent foundation of some sort was founded indeed to compensate these women, but nothing that is a official embodiment of the Japanese government. Many victims have therefore rejected to accept these compensations, because it is not simply money that they are after, but rather recognition.


But I doubt that they would settle for mere recognition without compensation. Funny how money automatically makes people feel better!

[KirinMan]

This should make some of you happy:
Japan's leader says sorry to WWII 'comfort women' (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/J/JAPAN_SEX_SLAVES?SITE=VOICESD&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

I suspect that this still will not be enough, as it is not an official apology issued by the government of Japan. Nor is there any monetary gain for the victims.

You are right it isn't enough, not when followup administrations make statements to the effect that it never happened the complaints will continue on.
Look Japan paid war reparations for injustices committed during WWII to numerous countries in Asia, however this issue didn't come to light until much much later. Japan does have the resources to pay these women even a tolken amount of money, it's not like asking to squeeze blood from a stone.

But I doubt that they would settle for mere recognition without compensation. Funny how money automatically makes people feel better!

Actually you are wrong here, if you read some of the information on the web sites included through links on this thread many of the women were offered compensation through the Asian Women's Fund but refused the money because it wasn't directly from the Japanese Government.

Seems to me at least that they felt the issue was being swept under the rug and they didn't stand for it. Hooray for them, that tells me it is the principle of the matter and not the money that is motivating them.

Tell me then, since you obviously think that the apologies of the past should be enough, which I must admit I also thought so as well, I even wrote a post similar to that on a different thread here, and until I started doing more research on the subject why does the current Japanese Administration act as if it never happened? Why is it not accepted policy that the these women were wronged? Why does the government continue to muddy the waters with ambigious statements like PM Abe's?

It's similar to the people running around making claims that the holocaust never happened either. Everybody else "knows" it happened but growing numbers of people are not quite so sure. Because they never lived through it or the era, and if you hear something enough times you begin to believe it's true, and the longer time goes on, the easier it is to sweep things under the rug, as there are no longer any witnesses alive.

Japan has a rather bad habit recently of trying to rewrite how history occured, and the comfort women issue is just one part of that revisionist view of how events during WWII happened.

If the government openly admits and makes it policy for further generations as well, with or without compensation, opens any "secret" files it may or may not have, it's not like there is a freedom of information act here, tells the world openly and not just through letters, then maybe after a firestorm of complaints about why so late, maybe then the issue could hopefully be put to rest.

[caster51]

COMFORT WOMEN AND KONO STATEMENT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvWimmKifOs

[leonmarino]

But I doubt that they would settle for mere recognition without compensation. Funny how money automatically makes people feel better!It is indeed. However, they wish money from the government, and not just random money donated by some non-governmental institution. Personally, I don't like the idea of having to ask for compensation in the form of money either, but it seems like a very common thing to do.. :relief:

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Though there is not evidence to insist on a crime, you force a crime on us.
It will be a false accusation.
You should show evidence if you insist on our crime.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

It is indeed. However, they wish money from the government, and not just random money donated by some non-governmental institution. Personally, I don't like the idea of having to ask for compensation in the form of money either, but it seems like a very common thing to do.. :relief:

A compensation of $ 20 000 was given by President Reagan in 1989 to each Japanese who was interned during WWII. It were the Japanese who asked for this compensation from the American government.
The San Francisco Treaty forbade us Pows and citizens who were all interned during WWII by the Japanese to ask one penny from Japan.
That is were the compensation idea comes from since 1989.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

A compensation of $ 20 000 was given by President Reagan in 1989 to each Japanese who was interned during WWII. It were the Japanese who asked for this compensation from the American government.
The San Francisco Treaty forbade us Pows and citizens who were all interned during WWII by the Japanese to ask one penny from Japan.
That is were the compensation idea comes from since 1989.

:okashii:

1951
However, Japan paid 10000000 dollars to the Netherlands.
In addition, the Japanese government paid about 20000 dollars per one in 1990.

[pipokun]

The interned people were American people...

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

:okashii:
1951
However, Japan paid 10000000 dollars to the Netherlands.
In addition, the Japanese government paid about 20000 dollars per one in 1990.

Shame on Holland that I didn't get those $ 20 000 per person, and neither did my mother.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Did the Netherlands apologize to people of Africa and an Asian former colony?
Did the Netherlands compensate people of a former colony?

[DoctorP]

It is indeed. However, they wish money from the government, and not just random money donated by some non-governmental institution. Personally, I don't like the idea of having to ask for compensation in the form of money either, but it seems like a very common thing to do.. :relief:

Actually it seems as though it is the Japanese way. If you wrong someone, then you apologize and offer a payment to show your regret. I don't agree with that particular custom.

[leonmarino]

Did the Netherlands apologize to people of Africa and an Asian former colony?
Did the Netherlands compensate people of a former colony?I don't know about monetary compensation, but the Dutch government has apologized for their part in the slave trade and also of colonization several countries. This was a issue a few year back I believe..

[Han Chan]

:okashii:
1951
However, Japan paid 10000000 dollars to the Netherlands.
In addition, the Japanese government paid about 20000 dollars per one in 1990.

So far individuals who have claimed compensation have been rejected:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/224499.stm

"Monday, November 30, 1998 Published at 07:48 GMT


World: Asia-Pacific

Japanese court rejects Dutch PoW claim

A Tokyo court has rejected a claim for compensation by eight former prisoners of war from the Netherlands against the Japanese Government.
The Dutch prisoners were forced into slave labour during World War II. One woman in the case had been forced to act as a prostitute for Japanese soldiers.
The judge said the court acknowledged that the plaintiffs had endured "abusive treatment and other sufferings ... while they were under detention, which amounted to violation of international law".
"But Japanese courts do not allow individuals who have suffered to demand damages from the state," he said.

Similar ruling
A similar ruling was made last week in a case brought by another group of former prisoners, several of them British.
Like the Dutch veterans, they were each seeking $22,000 (£13,500) compensation for the suffering they endured in Japanese PoW camps.
In that ruling, the judge did not acknowledge the plaintiffs' ordeal.
One of the eight Dutch veterans, Gerard Jungslager, said the court's decision was "regrettable", and that they would be lodging an appeal.
But he said the recognition of their suffering by the court was "a first step in the right direction".
The Japanese Government contends that all compensation claims were settled under the San Francisco peace treaty of 1951
One of the lawyers representing the Dutch group, Takashi Miimi, said the ruling was the first such case in which a Japanese court admitted the troops' behaviour violated international law."

[diceke]

Actually it seems as though it is the Japanese way. If you wrong someone, then you apologize and offer a payment to show your regret. I don't agree with that particular custom.

Actually, it's not particularly Japanese, or even Asian.
What about the Holocaust industry in the West?

ttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/619610.stm
ttp://zmagsite.zmag.org/oct2002/akram1002.htm

[KirinMan]

Actually, it's not particularly Japanese, or even Asian.
What about the Holocaust industry in the West?
ttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/619610.stm
ttp://zmagsite.zmag.org/oct2002/akram1002.htm

But as CC1 wrote it is a part of Japanese culture, very much so, I have been on the receiving end of it as well. Depending on the severity of the "wrong-doing" the amount of money offered varies as well.

If you wrong someone, then you apologize and offer a payment to show your regret. I don't agree with that particular custom.

Depending on what the "wrong" is I don't see any problem with it, it is similar to punitive damages in the US. I agree that there should be a ceiling, and at least here the amount is not set by a judge or jury.

[KirinMan]

Did the Netherlands apologize to people of Africa and an Asian former colony?
Did the Netherlands compensate people of a former colony?

I think I understand where you are coming from with this statement, however why is it necessary to equal one with the other?

Does one justify the other? You apologize first for your "mistakes" then we'll apologize after. Nothing will ever get accomplished, it comes across to me like a couple of kids in the principal's office arguing about who threw the first punch.

For arguments sake only here let's say the Netherlands, or any country for that matter, does apologize for any crimes it committed during their colony period would you then see fit to change your opinion and have the the Japanese Government pay compensation to the "comfort women"?

Let's just have all countries in the world get together for one big apology and compensation summit for "crimes" committed throughout history then all this tit for tat comparison junk could be finally put to rest.

Only problem with that is noone could "agree" on anything, to me at least it comes to the point where I am going to have to agree to disagree with the people on this thread about the comfort women issue.

[caster51]

Does one justify the other? You apologize first for your "mistakes" then we'll apologize
:cool:
I think A ordinary country is so....
so is Japan
However, they say that reflection(introspection) is insufficient when some problems occur.
they say"Show the sincere introspection . "
in the Yakuza world, it is money...
And, it is likely to demand an apology again. And, it is eternal.
This is a diplomatic issue.
This diplomatic card is very effective.
you should read what sinoceterism is ,again.
your idea is like Yakuza Idea....

[KirinMan]

:cool:
you should read what sinoceterism is ,again.
....

Sinocentrism is the same as saying a country is ethnocentric, the word is specific as it only it refers to China and its pre-modern view of the rest of the world, us and the barbarians.

So are you saying that Japan is the same?

your idea is like Yakuza Idea

It isn't my "idea", it was a response generated out of the number of respondents making similar comments that other's (countries) should apologize for their "misdeed's" as well.

Look at some of the comments here on this thread and on the "other" comfort women thread, in some of these responses people are making comments that either are attempting to justify Japan's past history, or use other countries misdeeds to justify Japan's own atrocities.

One could read these responses as an admittance that Japan is guilty as well.

If Japan was not guilty why bring up the issue of other countries needing to apologize for anything in the first place?

Two wrongs do not make it right.

[caster51]

So are you saying that Japan is the same?
I dont konw:blush: however it is based on today's real fact for Japan.
I think A ordinary country is so....
so is Japan
However, they say that reflection(introspection) is insufficient when some problems occur.
they say"Show the sincere introspection . "
in the Yakuza world, it is money...
And, it is likely to demand an apology again. And, it is eternal.
This is a diplomatic issue.
This diplomatic card is very effective.
you should read what sinoceterism is ,again.
your idea is like Yakuza Idea....
Once japan requested korea the compensation of individual comfort women from Japan. who refused that...? KOrean gervenment
that is , they wanted to make it diplomatic card


COMFORT WOMEN AND KONO STATEMENT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvWimmKifOs

[diceke]

Two wrongs do not make it right.
If you tell others to clean up their room, before you clean up your own, how convincing are you?

You could say that the person wagging his finger at another also has a point, but that does make him a hypocrite.

Think twice before you wag your finger, because, seriously, the US isn't any better (although you seem to think it is.)

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

The interned people were American people...

Japanese-Americans,yes. The German-Americans were also interned, but didn't ask for a compensation of $ 20 000 p.p.

Maybe the German-Americans felt ashamed of what happened in Europe during WWII?
The Japanese-Americans felt themselves war victims. America had to apologize and pay.

[pipokun]

I don't know about monetary compensation, but the Dutch government has apologized for their part in the slave trade and also of colonization several countries. This was a issue a few year back I believe..

Ask your Dutch govenment when Indonesia got independent from your country.

[caster51]

The German-Americans were also interned
what was concentration camp's name?

[Glenn]

Italian-Americans were also interned.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

The Dutch government insisted on 27th December 1949 as the Indonesian Indepence Day, until the 17th of August 2005 when Mr.B.Bot the Dutch foreign minister celebrated together with the Indonesians their real Independence day. Mr. Bot did this in name of the Dutch government.
Indeed ... at last.

But the Moluccans and the Papuans are living under the yoke of the Javanese government. That is also sad and nothing can be done about this.

The Dutch East Indies / Indonesia, was a Dutch name for all the independent islands around 1600. The Dutch government in the Netherlands in somewhere in 1800 called their colony, the Dutch East Indies.
The Dutch government became very rich! Those beautiful and rich islands have put the very small country Holland on the world map.

Today the Indonesian and Dutch governments are friends again.

[Han Chan]

what was concentration camp's name?
According to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#WWI_and _WWII
WWI and WWII
During World Wars I and II, many people deemed to be a threat due to enemy connections were interned in the US. This included people not born in the U.S. and also U.S. citizens of Japanese (in WWII), Italian (in WWII), and German ancestry. In particular, over 100,000 Japanese and Japanese Americans and Germans and German-Americans were sent to camps such as Manzanar during the second World War. Some compensation for property losses was paid in 1948, and the U.S. government officially apologized for the internment in 1988, saying that it was based on "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership", and paid reparations to former Japanese inmates who were still alive, while paying no reparations to interned Italians or Germans.

[diceke]

According to Wikipedia:

WWI and WWII
During World Wars I and II, many people deemed to be a threat due to enemy connections were interned in the US. This included people not born in the U.S. and also U.S. citizens of Japanese (in WWII), Italian (in WWII), and German ancestry. In particular, over 100,000 Japanese and Japanese Americans and Germans and German-Americans were sent to camps such as Manzanar during the second World War. Some compensation for property losses was paid in 1948, and the U.S. government officially apologized for the internment in 1988, saying that it was based on "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership", and paid reparations to former Japanese inmates who were still alive, while paying no reparations to interned Italians or Germans.
Germans were hardly a minority group in the States, so it was physically impossible to lock up all Americans of German ancestry. Actually, German Americans sent to internment camps were much smaller in number.

[Han Chan]

Germans were hardly a minority group in the States, so it was physically impossible to lock up all Americans of German ancestry. Actually, German Americans sent to internment camps were much smaller in number.
I belive that this is true. I think that it was only ethnically japanese who were interned merely based on ethnicity. Men, women and children - even US citizens were interned.

[KirinMan]

, because, seriously, the US isn't any better (although you seem to think it is.)

I would love for you to "show" me when I ever made any comment even close to saying that the US was "any better".

Let me save you the trouble researching it, I haven't. Don't assume, next time try asking first, you may be surprised at how I actually think about my "home" country.:-)


Germans were hardly a minority group in the States, so it was physically impossible to lock up all Americans of German ancestry. Actually, German Americans sent to internment camps were much smaller in number.

One other thing to remember is that there was the issue of "race". Many AMERICAN's, Caucasian Americans were viewed differently than those American's that were of Asian, particularly Japanese descent.

[caster51]

BTW
Please send these Comfot women back to korea..
30,000 Korean Women Sell Sex in Japan
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/200703/kt2007032817382410220.htm
are they going to say " we are forced"?

[KirinMan]

BTW
Please send these Comfot women back to korea..
30,000 Korean Women Sell Sex in Japan
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/200703/kt2007032817382410220.htm
are they going to say " we are forced"?
I'm getting a bit sick and tired of you continually confusing the issue by bringing up bs like this.

[caster51]

I'm getting a bit sick and tired of you continually confusing the issue by bringing up bs like this.

It is a same because it is money talk

[KirinMan]

It is a same because it is money talk

No it's about something totally different, it's about being able to stay on one topic plain and simple. Fortunately the majority of people posting and reading here are intelligent enough to make the distinction between what is pertinent and otherwise.

[justinod]

There are two major points that I can make here:
1. The Japanese IMPERIAL government didnt give a damn about the gaijin back in WWII. They did rape women, fire plague-ridden shells into Chinese towns, break every rule regarding POWs; in general they committed every war crime I can think of.

2. However!!!! There is something to be said of forgiveness. These women were abused by the Japanese military. There is no doubt about it; but that was 65 YEARS AGO. These women do deserve a formal apology, but money???? NO! The reason behind my stance on this is that I do not believe that money is a solution to anything. Do you honestly think that if the Japanese government paid off these women for what they went through that they would stop complaining? Look, there comes a time when everyone must individually decide that the past is the past and it should stay there. We didnt send Japan a bill for Pearl Harbor. In fact, we helped rebuild this country with our own money. That is the right thing to do: beat up the bully, forgive him, shake his hand, help him learn from it and help him rebuild.

[KirinMan]

We didnt send Japan a bill for Pearl Harbor. In fact, we helped rebuild this country with our own money. That is the right thing to do: beat up the bully, forgive him, shake his hand, help him learn from it and help him rebuild.

But we did saddle the country with having to "host" all the military bases that are here today. Plus the amount of money that the Japanese government now pays to keep these bases here is staggering. In a way that has forced Japan to pay more in reparations to the US than they paid to all the other countries in Asia combined, and probably many hundreds of times over.

Yes the US helped Japan get back on it's feet, but the reasons were not as altruistic as you are making them out to be, it was purely for the benefit of the US and not so much as recreating a new Japan. The US wanted a buffer country from the "then" growing "Red" threat.

These women do deserve a formal apology, but money???? NO! The reason behind my stance on this is that I do not believe that money is a solution to anything. Do you honestly think that if the Japanese government paid off these women for what they went through that they would stop complaining?

Probably some would, some wouldn't who knows, but you do realize it isn't just about the money, all of them had the chance to receive compensation from the Asian Women's Fund but they refused it because there was not admission of guilt and neither did the compensation come from the government itself.

So what does that tell you?

To me at least it means that it isn't about the money it's about the want or need to have the government of Japan once and for all unambigiously for now and all following generations acknowledge that this is a part of the history of Japan. Don't whitewash it, don't attempt to brush it under the carpet of time. Put it into the textbooks for all future generations to read, similar to what Germany did about Nazism, and I would bet you the clamor would die with these changes as well.

[Mr Man]

But we did saddle the country with having to "host" all the military bases that are here today. Plus the amount of money that the Japanese government now pays to keep these bases here is staggering. In a way that has forced Japan to pay more in reparations to the US than they paid to all the other countries in Asia combined, and probably many hundreds of times over.
Yes the US helped Japan get back on it's feet, but the reasons were not as altruistic as you are making them out to be, it was purely for the benefit of the US and not so much as recreating a new Japan. The US wanted a buffer country from the "then" growing "Red" threat.
Probably some would, some wouldn't who knows, but you do realize it isn't just about the money, all of them had the chance to receive compensation from the Asian Women's Fund but they refused it because there was not admission of guilt and neither did the compensation come from the government itself.
So what does that tell you?
To me at least it means that it isn't about the money it's about the want or need to have the government of Japan once and for all unambigiously for now and all following generations acknowledge that this is a part of the history of Japan. Don't whitewash it, don't attempt to brush it under the carpet of time. Put it into the textbooks for all future generations to read, similar to what Germany did about Nazism, and I would bet you the clamor would die with these changes as well.

Good post! I concur!

[Mr Man]

It makes one wonder if there isn't some sort of coersion to bring prostitutes to Japan today? powerful non-govt people or entities?
With not admitting wrong doings of the past, not appologizing, nor compensating for the past, it leaves open a possibility for future wrong doings. Do they wish to leave all their options on the table, or something?
I think it's a fairly well established fact that the Yakuza are able to bring in various women from South East Asia and other regions, under the guise of being job brokers. Once the women arrive they have their passports taken, are told that they now must pay back the considerable expense of bringing them here and "housing them" etc, and the nightmare begins, often with beatings to put them in the correct frame of submissiveness. The government have been urged numerous times to take a more serious stand against this but their efforts have been half assed. And to add major insult to injury, any of the women who actually manage to escape the sex prisons they are basically confined to, are then in danger of being arrested and processed as illegals by the authorities-which involves further incarceration, and deportation!! Government indifference to their plight and tolerance of the blatant human trafficking being conducted by Japanese criminal organisations, is in my mind, complicity!! This is one of the most obscene human rights violations in the developed world today; right here in good ole Japan!!

[Sukotto]

Government indifference to their plight and tolerance of the blatant human trafficking being conducted by Japanese criminal organisations, is in my mind, complicity!! This is one of the most obscene human rights violations in the developed world today; right here in good ole Japan!!

I'm sure Japan isn't the only developed nation in which this is wide spread.

[Ma Cherie]

I'm sure Japan isn't the only developed nation in which this is wide spread.


Yeah, human trafficking is really bad in Industrialized nations, like the US and Western Europe.

[Sukotto]

Yeah, human trafficking is really bad in Industrialized nations, like the US and Western Europe.


Sumimasen kedo,
are you being sarcastic?

I really do not know any stats on this stuff, just that we would be naive to believe it is not going on even in the US.

There are afterall sweatshops in NYCity in the year 2007 and probably L.A. and other places too. Prostitution rings. Is that the same thing as human trafficking?

[KirinMan]

Sorry about this, this is an off topic reply to this thread.

Sumimasen kedo,
are you being sarcastic?
I really do not know any stats on this stuff, just that we would be naive to believe it is not going on even in the US.
There are afterall sweatshops in NYCity in the year 2007 and probably L.A. and other places too. Prostitution rings. Is that the same thing as human trafficking?

I hope you realize that Ma Cherie was agreeing and adding that it occurs in the US as well.

Why would you think she was being sarcastic. Human trafficking unfortunately has been occuring for hundreds if not thousands of years, imo it is in some ways much worse than war.

It is still happening here in Japan as well, recently immigration started getting tougher on it but then the "crimminal's" changed their tactics and started setting up "false" marriages between Japanese men and "foreign" women. Just like what often happened between US servicemen and women from the Phillipines. That among other reasons as well forced the US to change it's "green-card" laws.

[Sukotto]

I hope you realize that Ma Cherie was agreeing and adding that it occurs in the US as well.
Why would you think she was being sarcastic.


...too much time online...?
i don't know


It doesn't seem like something Ma Cherie would disagree with.
I definately don't know where to get stats or even articles to back
up what I said. Maybe I'm feeling guilty for not looking more into it?
i don't know

[Ma Cherie]

Yeah, I was in agreement with you Sukotto, I made a thread about human trafficking it awhile ago, too. But the reason why I pointed out that human trafficking is bad in industrialized nations is because there are a lot of misconceptions that human trafficking only goes on in third world nations. There are a lot reasons as to why this is occurring, but that's another topic for another time. :relief:

Here's a website about human trafficking.
http://www.humantrafficking.org/

[Mr Man]

I'm sure Japan isn't the only developed nation in which this is wide spread.

I agree! It is indeed a problem throughout the developed and not so developed world.

[diceke]

"US State Department data “estimated 600,000 to 820,000 men, women, and children [are] trafficked across international borders each year, approximately 80 percent are women and girls and up to 50 percent are minors.

An estimated 14,000 people are trafficked into the United States each year, although again because trafficking is illegal, accurate statistics are difficult.[7] According to the Massachusetts based Trafficking Victims Outreach and Services Networkin Massachusetts alone, there were 55 documented cases of human trafficking in 2005 and the first half of 2006 in Massachusetts.[8] In 2004, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) estimated that 600-800 persons are trafficked into Canada annually and that additional 1,500-2,200 persons are trafficked through Canada into the United States.[9]"ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking

[Ma Cherie]

"US State Department data “estimated 600,000 to 820,000 men, women, and children [are] trafficked across international borders each year, approximately 80 percent are women and girls and up to 50 percent are minors.

An estimated 14,000 people are trafficked into the United States each year, although again because trafficking is illegal, accurate statistics are difficult.[7] According to the Massachusetts based Trafficking Victims Outreach and Services Networkin Massachusetts alone, there were 55 documented cases of human trafficking in 2005 and the first half of 2006 in Massachusetts.[8] In 2004, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) estimated that 600-800 persons are trafficked into Canada annually and that additional 1,500-2,200 persons are trafficked through Canada into the United States.[9]"ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking


You copied and pasted, but what point are you trying to make?

[diceke]

You copied and pasted, but what point are you trying to make?Refer back to Sukotto's post. He's trying to find out the stats in the US.

[Sukotto]

Refer back to Sukotto's post. He's trying to find out the stats in the US.


Hai, soo desu. Arigatoo gozaimashita, diceke.
Thanks

And I'm sure it is a low end estimate the state dept has got there.

[Sukotto]

Should the comfort women be paid? after all these years?

I believe compensation should be paid to the people of
Nagasaki and Hiroshima and Japan in general for the inhuman atom bombings,
even after all these years.

But I think the only just compensation is to fully disarm and study war no more.
But that is another topic...

see an above comment of mine about continuing human trafficking in the future, today

[KirinMan]

Should the comfort women be paid? after all these years?


How many years is too long? There are precedents for compensation being paid after a few decades to survivors. As time goes on and these unfortunate women die due to age there will no longer be a call for compensation.

Who will then carry on the legacy of getting Japan to ackowledge that this occured?

[Sukotto]

Obeika,
I agree they should be compensated.
It is not like 1000 years or something.
People are still affected by this, specifically those directly affected.

[KirinMan]

Obeika,
I agree they should be compensated.
It is not like 1000 years or something.
People are still affected by this, specifically those directly affected.

Im sorry if I sounded too harsh, that wasnt my intent.:relief:

I think it bothers many people that were not directly affected as well.

[Sukotto]

Im sorry if I sounded too harsh, that wasnt my intent.:relief:
I think it bothers many people that were not directly affected as well.


Like treating 1/2 of the human race as if they were some how less than equal to the other half? Which actually devalues both 1/2s. Lowering ourselves in thinking others are lower.

[origami]

I am still not qualified to paste URLs here, I quote good entries of good blogs authored by foreigners.

The following is March 3 entry of the blog "Occidentalism" by Matt (an Australian who lives in Sydney, he can writes/reads Hangul, Chinese, Japanese, too)


===========Quote

Comfort woman gives contradictionary testimony

Recently there have been hearings in the US house of representatives to condemn Japan for its involvement in the comfort women system. A Korean woman that claims to be a former comfort woman appeared before the house of representatives to give testimony. The woman, Lee Yong-soo, gave testimony that in the house of representatives that contradicts her earlier testimony.

Excerpt of testimony in the house of representatives -

In the autumn of 1944, when I was 16 years old, my friend, Kim Punsun, and I were collecting shellfish at the riverside when we noticed an elderly man and a Japanese man looking down at us form the hillside. The older man pointed at us with his finger, and the Japanese man started to walk towards us. The older man disappeared, and the Japanese beckoned to us to follow him. I was scared and ran away, not caring about what happened to my friend. A few days later, Punsun knocked on my window early in the morning, and whispered to me to follow her quietly. I tip-toed out of the house after her. I lift without telling my mother. I was wearing a dark skirt, a long cotton blouse buttoned up at the front and slippers on my feet. I followed my friend until we met the same man who had tried to approach us on the riverbank. He looked as if he was in his late thirties and he wore a sort of People’s Army uniform with a combat cap. Altogether, there were five girls with him, including myself.

Testimony given previously -

Lee Yong-soo, 78, a South Korean who was interviewed during a recent trip to Tokyo, said she was 14 when Japanese soldiers took her from her home in 1944 to work as a sex slave in Taiwan.
“The Japanese government must not run from its responsibilities,” said Lee, who has long campaigned for Japanese compensation. “I want them to apologize. To admit that they took me away, when I was a little girl, to be a sex slave. To admit that history.”
“I was so young. I did not understand what had happened to me,” she said. “My cries then still ring in my years. Even now, I can’t sleep.”

Obviously these testimonies contradict each other, and in normal circumstances would call into doubt the validity of the claim of being forced to be a sex slave. However, in the comfort woman controversy, anyone that even dares to doubt the testimony of a self described former comfort woman is an evil beast that supports the sexual slavery of women. Truly examining the testimonies the comfort woman has reached level of an untouchable taboo.

Lee Yong-soo is not the only person claiming to be a former comfort woman to give contradictory testimony. There are many. From what I have read from comfort woman supporters, the contradictory testimonies can be accounted for by -

*The interviewers of the comfort women are injecting their own words into the testimony
*The women suffer from a “fragmentation” of memory, and thus unable to give a consistent chronological account of their experiences

Which testimony are we supposed to believe? Since questioning the factual validity of womens testimonies is taboo, we are expected to believe every single testimony, even those that contradict each other. I think there is some truth to some of the testimony, but I do not think that testimony should be the only way of determining what happened. Testimony should be cross referenced with existing documents to determine what really happened.

=========Unquote


Friends, I do recommend you to get an access directly to the blog "Occidentalism" yourself.


Another entry of "Occcidentalism" March 6 by Matt, an Australian blogger.

===========Quote

More contradictory comfort woman testimony

Previously I introduced the contradictory testimony of Lee Yong-Soo, who appeared before a Congressional committee considering House Resolution 121, a resolution demanding that Japan unconditionally apologise to all of the 200,000 women it is claimed were kidnapped by the Japanese army or their agents.

Apparently Lee Yong-Soo has given other, different testimonies as well.

Here is some testimony by Lee Yong-Soo from an organisation called Unerasable Memory: Making reality a formal apology and compensation by the Japanese government for the female comfort women victims of the Japanese army! , that held a national meeting in Japan in 2004, there is another, different testimony from Lee Yong-Soo. Here are the relevant quotes -

1928年韓国の大邱(テグ)生まれ。1944年、16歳の時に「 軍服みたいな服を着た男」に連行され、台湾へ。
その後、連れて行かれた先の台湾で、日本軍「慰安婦」 としての生活を3年間強制された。
In 1928 I was born in Daegu, Korea. In 1944, at 16 years old I was forcibly taken away by a man wearing a something like a military uniform to Taiwan.
After that, in Taiwan, the place I was sent I was forced to work for 3 years as a comfort woman for the Japanese army.

The war ended in 1945. How could she work for 3 years? Furthermore, during the war virtually all men wore a military style uniform.

Here is another testimony from the site of the Japanese Communist Party. The Japanese Communist Party supports the comfort women.

韓国の李容洙さん（７４）は、十四歳で銃剣をつき付け られて連れてこられたこと、拒むと殴られ、電気による 拷問を受けて死にかけたことなどを話し、「私は歴史の 生き証人として今、生きている。
74 year old Korean, Lee Yong-Soo talked about how she was taken at gun point when she was 14 years old, and when she resisted, she was beaten and tortured through electrocution to near death. Lee Yong-Soo told us “I am a living as a living witness to history”.

I can now count four different stories, all from the same person. If she is a living witness to history, then which story are we supposed to believe? What does Mike Honda, the sponsor of Congressional House Resolution 121 condemning the current Japanese government for the comfort women controversy, think of this? I do not think he cares, since all we have seen at the Congressional hearings has been one sided arguments and verbal testimony, without any sincere historical investigation.

HT to James at JapanProbe, and Tonchamon.

==========Unquote

[KirinMan]

Like treating 1/2 of the human race as if they were some how less than equal to the other half? Which actually devalues both 1/2s. Lowering ourselves in thinking others are lower.

It's a good point, I doubt however that the two will ever been seen or treated truly as equal's until both are able to physically function the same. Which of course is an absurdity.

Educating people about the past is one of the first steps in my opinion to understanding. Enlightening children, in particular, that damn near each and every country on the planet has atrocities in their past that brought them to where they are today, and as you know that includes Japan as well, is one of the first steps in ensuring it doesn't happen again.

[Sukotto]

It's a good point, I doubt however that the two will ever been seen or treated truly as equal's until both are able to physically function the same. Which of course is an absurdity.



Well, equal as in there is not an "other" that is worth less.

As for physical abilities, there are women and men who are stronger
or faster than I, or slower and can lift less weight, but that does not mean
those people are less or better than I.

[KirinMan]

As for physical abilities,

Sukotto I think you missed what I wrote, I wasn't talking about abilities but "bodily functions":wave:.

[Mars Man]

Well, I read over the posts, and still don't have a firm stance myself. I tend to agree with the first statement in the poll, yet could not vote in that it's in the absolute; and I just don't reason that I can say I have the information/data to agree in the absolute. The other statements presented the same dilemma, and so I just don't feel I can vote.

It is a very serious concern, I would most certainly agree. To what degree the Japanese government of today is to be held responsible, I cannot firmly determine--my general point of view is that today's government is most largely different from the Imperial government of that day. I have come across reports that do tell of apologies having been made, and Abe's talking to Bush about it and such, but I do not know the content nor spirit of that apology.

It has been highlighted on in various nuances in above posts, I think, that we humans are pretty much the same ole humans as humans have pretty much always been in the past what, 2 million years or so?...as far as can best be posited/determined. It's sad. I wonder how it'll be some 2 million years from now.

Anyway, as also brought out above, we should never forget, and should strive to relive ourselves of such--now I want to say inhumanity, but I think that word is strange--disposition. MM

[pipokun]

...
To what degree the Japanese government of today is to be held responsible,
What resposibility the Japanese govenment is to held? Please clarify it.
If you think the military brothel must be a war crime like the Japanese or Asian adovocates claim, please stand up for the Japanese/Asian women who died in the Korean war, the Vietnam war or other wars.

Considering your age, you know much more about the Vietnam war, right?

[KirinMan]

Well, I read over the posts, and still don't have a firm stance myself. I tend to agree with the first statement in the poll, yet could not vote in that it's in the absolute; and I just don't reason that I can say I have the information/data to agree in the absolute. The other statements presented the same dilemma, and so I just don't feel I can vote.


Fair reply, I wrote the poll with the hope that people here would get off the fence and choose one side or the other. I wanted to word the third option differently but due to the limitations in the number of characters I could not actually write what I had intended as a poll option.
I also sent a couple of PM's to Uncle Frank asking him to put a 7th option into the poll to define the 6th option a little better, he was unable to assist me and I forwarded the PM's I sent to Uncle Frank to Dutch Baka on April 5th but have not heard any response nor had the poll changed as of yet.

What resposibility the Japanese govenment is to held? Please clarify it.

I think this is a fair question. I will admit that I have thought long and hard about this since I have gotten involved on this issue.

I still feel that the current Japanese Administration "owes" these women and the rest of the world, at the minimum an honest acknowledgement that this issue happened and it isnt just a figment of everyones but the Japanese peoples imagination. Also the current Administration and all that follow afterwards need to include this and other issues from WWII in the ES/JHS/HS history lessons as a sad but important part of Japan. Particularly in its relationships with other countries in Asia. The government has to quit trying to rewrite history.

If you think the military brothel must be a war crime like the Japanese or Asian adovocates claim, please stand up for the Japanese/Asian women who died in the Korean war, the Vietnam war or other wars.


Pipokun why do you and other Japanese continually insist on equating and justifying the actions of one against another? I am continually baffled by this line of thinking.

By using this logic you realize I hope that you are ackowleding that the events and issues in question are a matter of fact. Who knows maybe he does support them. Why however limit it to the Japanese women only, when there is a world full of women faced with similar issues today. You use one point in history to justify another. Yet they are neither equal nor the same. Each should be discussed on their own merits.

Could you at least try to talk about this topic ONLY without bringing up different wars or different eras?

[diceke]

Pipokun why do you and other Japanese continually insist on equating and justifying the actions of one against another? I am continually baffled by this line of thinking.
By using this logic you realize I hope that you are ackowleding that the events and issues in question are a matter of fact. If you were in a court of law this argument would not be recognized other than an admitance of guilt. You use one point in history to justify another. Yet they are neither equal nor the same. Each should be discussed on their own merits.
I think he and others are just pointing out to the inconsistency in your logic. It's bad when it's done by Japan, but you simply choose to turn a blind eye, or claim it to be just when it's the US. A typical American logic.:okashii:

[KirinMan]

I think he and others are just pointing out to the inconsistency in your logic. It's bad when it's done by Japan, but you simply choose to turn a blind eye, or claim it to be just when it's the US. A typical American logic.:okashii:

Learn to read a little closer........if you had there would be no reason to make comments like this.

Each and every issue is unique, you can not use events that happened hundreds of years ago to compare with this issue, or even more recent events.

That my dear boy is illogical.

And and in a reply to this quote from the post below me here;

Your profile says you are an educator, but I wonder what you teach

Not what but who, :wave:

[diceke]

Learn to read...........
YOU learn to read. You are the "worst speler"? and dyslexic too?
Your profile says you are an educator, but I wonder what you teach. :okashii:

[diceke]

Learn to read a little closer........if you had there would be no reason to make comments like this.
Each and every issue is unique, you can not use events that happened hundreds of years ago to compare with this issue, or even more recent events.
That my dear boy is illogical.
And and in a reply to this quote from the post below me here;
Not what but who, :wave:
Each issue is different, so that's why we compare and contrast.

[KirinMan]

Each issue is different, so that's why we compare and contrast.

However in this case it isn't "compare and contrast" but obfuscate and confuse.

I will give you credit for finally making a post that is not intended to inflame or anger someone. Keep it up.

[diceke]

However in this case it isn't "compare and contrast" but obfuscate and confuse.

Then don't bring up the compensation issue of American internment camps to confuse the issue. :-)

[KirinMan]

Then don't bring up the compensation issue of American internment camps to confuse the issue. :-)

Did you actually read what I wrote, here it is to refresh your memory

I usually hate using comparisons because in this case the situations are very different but in this case a precedent was made when the US Government paid reparations to Japanese families in compensation for their internment during WWII in the US. President Regan apologized and the government paid $1.2 billion dollars and this was in 1988.

I make no other comparisons about women being used in different conflicts, only to make a point about precedents. I didn't nor have used other conflicts to justify the actions of the Imperial Japanese Army during WWII, which to my chagrin others here are doing.

You know darn near every post you make here on this forum is antagonistic by nature.

[Ma Cherie]

Are we still discussing issues with 'comfort women?' Can we please get on topic?

Thank you very much.

diceke, why don't you stop bickering with folks. :okashii:

[diceke]

I usually hate using comparisons because in this case the situations are very different but in this case a precedent was made when the US Government paid reparations to Japanese families in compensation for their internment during WWII in the US. President Regan apologized and the government paid $1.2 billion dollars and this was in 1988.

In case you didn't know what a precedent is:

" NOUN: 1a. An act or instance that may be used as an example in dealing with subsequent similar instances. b. Law A judicial decision that may be used as a standard in subsequent similar cases: a landmark decision that set a legal precedent. 2. Convention or custom arising from long practice: The President followed historical precedent in forming the Cabinet."(The American Heritage)

As yourself admitted, the case is so different that it is not even a precedent. No idea why you brought that up. :okashii:

[Mars Man]

What resposibility the Japanese govenment is to held? Please clarify it.


Hi there pipokun san !! Yes, I would say that we should view the entire line of thought of that sentence:

To what degree the Japanese government of today is to be held responsible, I cannot firmly determine--my general point of view is that today's government is most largely different from the Imperial government of that day.

To paraphrase it: I don't know to what degree the Japanese government of today is to be held responsible, because in general I see the present Japanese government as not being the ex-Imperial government.

War crime? Well, I'd like to argue--to just go off topic a touch--that war is a crime; yes, indeed. To respond to your question, pipokun, I can only apologize--I simply don't feel I am ready to make any efforts to attach any political or 'politically correct' terms or definitions to the matter. What is a war crime? when war itself is a crime?

Long time no see obeika san !! I guess I'd have to apologize to you too...perhaps I'm just kind of sitting here on the fence, enjoying my beer, dango and the pretty little cherry blossoms. Maybe I could determine a position if I were to look into it more and do a lot more research, but, I just don't have the time at the moment.

I do hope we all can keep it fairly mellow here, though, and as our dear sister, Ma Cheri has reminded us of, stay as close to topic as possible. In pro and con debates--which is what makes debate anyway--there'll always be some antagonistical essence (it just comes with the territory) but I'd hope that we can not let it spill over into attacks on the person debating, rather than on facts/points and counter-facts/points. THANK YOU ALL !! (and it's been a while to have the opportunity to talk with you too, Ma chan)

Carry on !!! Peace !! :cool: :wave:

[Ma Cherie]

Thank you very much. :-)

We can all discuss this without getting into pointless arguments.

Interesting question raised about the definition of a war crime. :? But many people don't consider war a 'crime.' But certain acts during war isn't a crime. As I pointed out before, there was a point in time when rape was used as a weapon during war.

[KirinMan]

As I pointed out before, there was a point in time when rape was used as a weapon during war.

Well it isn't that far in the past that rape was used as one method of so called "ethnic" cleansing in the former Yugoslavia.

In my opinion the "Comfort Women" issue was a form of institutionalized rape, condoned by the Imperial Army of Japan.

War crime? ........ when war itself is a crime?


Interesting question, is war itself a crime?

Long time no see obeika san !! I guess I'd have to apologize to you too...perhaps I'm just kind of sitting here on the fence, enjoying my beer, dango and the pretty little cherry blossoms. Maybe I could determine a position if I were to look into it more and do a lot more research, but, I just don't have the time at the moment.


I appreciate your candor and honesty here. Thank you. No need to apologize here, this is a polarizing issue without a doubt.

[pipokun]

[QUOTE=Obeika;455711]...
Pipokun why do you and other Japanese continually insist on equating and justifying the actions of one against another? I am continually baffled by this line of thinking.
...
[QUOTE]
No, I or other Japanese don't justify it. I say it was just a military brothel. Nothing more, nothing less.

[KirinMan]

No, I or other Japanese don't justify it. I say it was just a military brothel. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ok fair enough, just because it was a military brothel, does that make any difference to you regarding the issue of the "Comfort Women"?

[pipokun]

Ok fair enough, just because it was a military brothel, does that make any difference to you regarding the issue of the "Comfort Women"?
No. It is not differnt from confort women.
Tell me why it was the war crime.

[KirinMan]

No. It is not differnt from confort women.
Tell me why it was the war crime.

I honestly am not sure if describing the "Comfort Women" issue as being a war crime other than the fact that it occured during WWII.

If it had occured at any other time in history I think it may have or would have been described with the current terminology of "crimes against humanity". Purely based upon the degradation, abuse, rape and murder of women, for the pleasurement of an unwelcome invading force. Also by the nature of which these women were forced or coorced into doing this so called "work".

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hello pipokun,

Raping women is always a crime, so far we agree.
It becomes a war crime when it happens during a war and the raping is done by the occupying army. When this happens to a few girls and women, I can call it a very ugly act. But alas, when it happens to thousands of girls and very young women to be raped by the occupied army, I can only call this a dramatic war crime.

[KirinMan]

Raping women is always a crime, so far we agree.


I agree with you as well. I also can not think of a more henious crime than the rape of women and or children.

I also think what disgusts or bothers me most about this issue is the thought or idea that a young woman could be abused and or forced into literal sexual slavery.

I have a 20 year old daughter and I can not even imagine a situation where she would be forced into a situation that these women were faced with, perform or die, or in some actual documented cases, perform and die. I can not right now think of a more delicate way to put it.

I do not want to "blame" the current Japanese administration for what happened, but I do want them to acknowledge that these atrocities occured and for future generations to know that this is what happened in Japan's desire to create a new empire.

Japan "today" is of course not the Japan of WWII, but what happened during WWII is a FACT of Japanese history.

[gaijinalways]

Funny how history changes depending on the lens you use to view it with. Strangely enough, some people who live in Japan feel that mirroring the view that right wing Japanese have will make living here easier. Often the arguements advanced about legalities and written proof run circular to what happened, to what many people state happened to them during WWII. I have seen this on another forum where members defend a position of a member who claims he is a liberal, whilst he spouts about the comfort women issue being a blind for women (all he claims) being voluntary paid prostitutes and the legendary 731 unit only tortured death row prisoners. But hey, he's a good old boy, I guess.

I guess I figure that proving something to someone who doesn't want to change their opinion is rather difficult. Remember there are still people holding onto the Iraq war was good opinion too, but at least they don't deny that it happened.

[pipokun]

In my opinion the "Comfort Women" issue was a form of institutionalized rape, condoned by the Imperial Army of Japan.
During the WWII, the US officially praised the Aussie brothel in the Middle East, because it was highly organised. And the US imported women from India in China. There were other sad stories during the WWII, but I've never heard of any appologies.
So you think the US and other countries should applogy what you call the instutionalised rape.

I have a 20 year old daughter and I can not even imagine a situation where she would be forced into a situation that these women were faced with, perform or die, or in some actual documented cases, perform and die. I can not right now think of a more delicate way to put it.
What are the documented cases?

[hanachan]

There are a few Japanese who come and argue and a few people given neutral informations in this forum.
All the evidence that was profitable to a defendant was rejected or ignored, just like Tokyo trial.
Do you think that this poll is fair?

Till when do you continue this thread?
And how do you do with a result?
If you are not American, I would think this thread in another way.
If I make a thread "Why Japan doesn't demand apology of napalm bombing and A-bomb bombing from the US?", what sophism will you make?

Raping women is always a crime, so far we agree.
It becomes a war crime when it happens during a war and the raping is done by the occupying army. When this happens to a few girls and women, I can call it a very ugly act. But alas, when it happens to thousands of girls and very young women to be raped by the occupied army, I can only call this a dramatic war crime.
Elizabeth, I'm sorry. I understand you and I agree with you.
In occupied Japan many girls were raped by American soldiers.
If you think of your girls, please think of our girls, too.
I think that you should have started this thread, not Obeika.
It is fair.

[KirinMan]

Elizabeth, I'm sorry. I understand you and I agree with you.
In occupied Japan many girls were raped by American soldiers.
If you think of your girls, please think of our girls, too.
I think that you should have started this thread, not Obeika.
It is fair.

Don't even presume to know where I am coming from on this issue please. I have just as much an axe to grind about what the Japanese Imperial Army did to relatives of mine, both American and Okinawan.

Elizabeth LIVED through this era, not you nor me and her opinions carry much more weight with me than you or any others here, like that or not.

If you understand her position you would realize that the Japanese Imperial Army and it's subordinates were guilty as charged of coercing women into becoming sexual slaves for the Japanese Imperial Army, brothel or otherwise.

Do you think that this poll is fair?

If you think otherwise then start one on your own. I challenge you to make your own poll and ask people what you want to know about this issue. Instead of making ambigious remarks here, state your opinions and start your own thread. Give people the opportunity to "hear" what you have to say. For or against. That is your option.

Each and every person has their own opportunity to state their own opinions, and from the results of the poll so far it is obvious that the MAJORITY of people that posted their votes think that Japan is guilty with regards to the issue of the "Comfort Women".

There are a few Japanese who come and argue and a few people given neutral informations in this forum.

I wrote the poll to get people to get off the fence and make a choice, for or against. There really is no neutrality on an issue such as this. One either believes or doesn't believe, and so far the votes show that the people voting so far, believe the women that are making their claims against the Japanese Government. That much is black and white. Like it or not. Each person is entitled to their opinion, yourself as well.

Elizabeth, I'm sorry. I understand you and I agree with you.

Do you really? Do you know how Elizabeth voted on this issue? If you truly agree with her then you also accept the fact that the Japanese Imperial Army was guilty as charged.

What are the documented cases?

I am not going to repeat myself here, go through and read the connected links about this issue. Women were murdered after they fulfilled their "duties"
You know, no matter what I nor anyone else here writes, you and others will always believe that Japan was never guilty of anything reagrding this issue.
I honestly feel pity for you.

You can not change my mind nor the minds of an uncountable number of people throughout the world, including Japanese people as well, that "know" in their hearts that this is a fact from Japanese history.

Why Japan doesn't demand apology of napalm bombing and A-bomb bombing from the US?", what sophism will you make?


You want to know the "real" reason? Japan lost, plain and simple. Like it or not that is what it comes down to and oh btw that is not a fallacy but a fact.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

During the WWII, the US officially praised the Aussie brothel in the Middle East, because it was highly organised. And the US imported women from India in China. There were other sad stories during the WWII, but I've never heard of any appologies.
So you think the US and other countries should applogy what you call the instutionalised rape.
What are the documented cases?

The Japanese Militairy Police received orders from Tokyo to destroy all evidences of what happened to the Allied POWs or civilians during WWII in the by the Japanese occupied countries. Allmost all papers, documents have been burnt. Just blowing in the wind.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

There are a few Japanese who come and argue and a few people given neutral informations in this forum.
All the evidence that was profitable to a defendant was rejected or ignored, just like Tokyo trial.
Do you think that this poll is fair?
Till when do you continue this thread?
And how do you do with a result?
If you are not American, I would think this thread in another way.
If I make a thread "Why Japan doesn't demand apology of napalm bombing and A-bomb bombing from the US?", what sophism will you make?
Elizabeth, I'm sorry. I understand you and I agree with you.
In occupied Japan many girls were raped by American soldiers.
If you think of your girls, please think of our girls, too.
I think that you should have started this thread, not Obeika.
It is fair.

I joined this Japanse Forum, because only this way I can meet young Japanese. I am more than interested how you feel about World War Two. And I can very well understand that such a matter as Comfort Women is painful. It all happened in the time of your grandparents. I can feel that you don't like blaming your grandfathers for these acts. But you are not one bit responsible and in most cases neither were your grandfathers. Only governments and the military leaders (from every country) are responsible.
After WWII the Russian soldiers have raped many innocent German girls.

It seems that girls and young women often pay the bill in any war and in any country. I have often wondered why.

Obeika speaks of his daughter only 20 years old. He would be a broken man if something like the above would happen to her.
That is exactly how you should see this Comfort Women drama; all those poor girls were somebodies daughter. Just try to feel the pain in those fathers and mothers hearts.

[Sukotto]

[I]
Quote hanachan:
"Why Japan doesn't demand apology of napalm bombing and A-bomb bombing from the US?", what sophism will you make?"

You want to know the "real" reason? Japan lost, plain and simple. Like it or not that is what it comes down to and oh btw that is not a fallacy but a fact.


This is true. Japan lost. There were high ranking US military officers from WW2 that have said if they would have lost the war, they would have been the ones on trial.
I might take the dissolution of the "american" empire before this (that the a-bombs are a war crime) is acknowledged by the US gov't, let alone appologized for.

I'm pretty sure the usual response to the A-bombs in the US is: "but they helped end the war and saved millions of lives". Both points, that they ended the war and numbers of lives saved, there is serious historical evidence to the contrary. Not to mention that so many US military figures disapproved, including US military commander Dwight D Eisenhower who said:

I voiced to him (Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson) my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives.―1945[34]
from the wikipedia article on Eisenhower

Today, the corporatocracy that runs the US/world wants to build so-called "usable" nukes. Now THAT, is something the world would never, ever forgive the US for. (as if there isn't enough already)

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Obeika speaks of his daughter only 20 years old. He would be a broken man if something like the above would happen to her.


I agree to this opinion.
Therefore I wonder.
Why did not the Korean parents appeal for abduction?
More than 40 years, why did nobody know Comfort Women?
Why are not there rumor and a record in those days?
I cannot understand me at all.
Why do not you do the answer that can understand me about this doubt?

By the way,
It is illegal to judge about a past case by existing law.

[KirinMan]

I agree to this opinion.
Therefore I wonder.
Why did not the Korean parents appeal for abduction?
Why do not you do the answer that can understand me about this doubt?
.

Hiroyuki san, thanks for your comments here, I can not answer why the Korean parents didn't request information about their daughters, I have ideas but can only speculate.

More than 40 years, why did nobody know Comfort Women?
THe Comfort Women issue was known about at the minimum from the end of WWII. What amazed me was that this issue has it's roots all the way back to the late 1920's, not just during WWII.

Why do not you do the answer that can understand me about this doubt?

It is the first time you are asking anyone to "understand you" about the doubt. Does it bother you, even a little that people from all over the world think that this is a fact, and believe the women that gave testimony in regards to this issue?

Why does the government here insist on trying to make it and other issues related to the actions of the Japanese Imperial Army disappear? What benefit is there for children not to know that this happened, when everyone else around the world accepts it as fact?

By the way,It is illegal to judge about a past case by existing law

I never argued otherwise, in fact I agree.

And I can very well understand that such a matter as Comfort Women is painful. It all happened in the time of your grandparents.

Elizabeth, this is what baffles me the most. I accept the fact that I lost many relatives during WWII, I don't hate the Japanese nor Japan, hell my wife is Japanese. All I am hoping for is that Japan and it's people accept their past history, however culturally embarrassing it may be, there is no need for the current generation to feel guilt, however the current generation, and subsequent ones, need to know this part of Japanese history.

If the Comfort Women issue was strictly Japanese against Japanese I am pretty sure one would be able to read about it in a textbook, same goes for the other "major" incidents that occured during WWII.

In my opinion it is because of a misplaced pride many Japanese have or the thought that their cultural heritage could somehow be blemished that they want this issue to disappear.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hiroyuki san, thanks for your comments here, I can not answer why the Korean parents didn't request information about their daughters, I have ideas but can only speculate.
THe Comfort Women issue was known about at the minimum from the end of WWII. What amazed me was that this issue has it's roots all the way back to the late 1920's, not just during WWII.
It is the first time you are asking anyone to "understand you" about the doubt. Does it bother you, even a little that people from all over the world think that this is a fact, and believe the women that gave testimony in regards to this issue?
Why does the government here insist on trying to make it and other issues related to the actions of the Japanese Imperial Army disappear? What benefit is there for children not to know that this happened, when everyone else around the world accepts it as fact?
I never argued otherwise, in fact I agree.
Elizabeth, this is what baffles me the most. I accept the fact that I lost many relatives during WWII, I don't hate the Japanese nor Japan, hell my wife is Japanese. All I am hoping for is that Japan and it's people accept their past history, however culturally embarrassing it may be, there is no need for the current generation to feel guilt, however the current generation, and subsequent ones, need to know this part of Japanese history.
If the Comfort Women issue was strictly Japanese against Japanese I am pretty sure one would be able to read about it in a textbook, same goes for the other "major" incidents that occured during WWII.
In my opinion it is because of a misplaced pride many Japanese have or the thought that their cultural heritage could somehow be blemished that they want this issue to disappear.

Obeika, I read somewhere long ago that Japanese people can't blame or think bad about their grandparents or parents once they died. Not so strange
because also in Dutch we say; About the death we tell only about the good things he or she did.
But the Japanese people have made it a big culture and think that when you deny what happened it will simply disappear. But there are still victims and eyewitnesses alive.
Nevertheless I can say that I have met very open and modern thinking Japanese, who do admit that the Japanese Army has commited crimes.
Last but not least, I guess that you and I belong to a culture where we learn at a very young age to think for ourselves. We don't let a group or government tell us what we should think. That makes a big difference.
History is where we learn from; never again an A Bomb, never again a war inside Europe. But we all, still have to learn a lot!!!

[KirinMan]

Nevertheless I can say that I have met very open and modern thinking Japanese, who do admit that the Japanese Army has commited crimes.
Last but not least, I guess that you and I belong to a culture where we learn at a very young age to think for ourselves. We don't let a group or government tell us what we should think. That makes a big difference.
History is where we learn from; never again an A Bomb, never again a war inside Europe. But we all, still have to learn a lot!!!

I agree with you here, I have much to learn as well, my father taught me that if there is one day that goes by without you learning something new, however small, then you no longer have the "right" to continue living the life that you have.

In a way, while truly feeling sorry for the people that died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, not to mention all the other deaths from wars throughout the ages, if the US had not dropped the atomic bombs and the devastation not "felt" people, governments, would never know the true horror of these weapons. I also feel that issues like the comfort women one can also be used as a teaching tool to educate people about the horror's of crimes like this as well.

This board is very lucky to have a member such as you participating here. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experiences. Have a great weekend.:-)

[pipokun]

Obeika, you can find tons of info about the issue in the Asian
Women's Fund.
Of course, it includes the victor's documentation in the US. Esp., in the 5th volume, which contains the US document.
第5巻(5.18M) (http://www.awf.or.jp/program/pdf/ianfu_5.pdf)

It is very dangerous idea, victor & loser, for it cannot explain anything, wartime & women.

Indian and Chinese women were willing to go to China to serve the US soldiers then?
Did Japan & the US or I should say the UN fight in the Korean war? How do you explain Japanese or Korean women who died there.
How do you explain the US brothels in Vietnam, Okinawa and other parts of Japan to your daughter?
Do you say everything was the war crime as you describe? If not, what is the difference?

[diceke]

You want to know the "real" reason? Japan lost, plain and simple. Like it or not that is what it comes down to and oh btw that is not a fallacy but a fact.
The US lost in Vietnam, and they still has not fully acknowledged nor compensated for their crimes. Haha.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/03/06/vietnam.us.orange/index.html
http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2007/02/09/us_makes_grant_to_help_vietnam_dioxin_cleanup/
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AsljzohoVOKCZ1_BqxP9QzYjzKIX?qid=200606 16061747AAVD0nb

[KirinMan]

How do you explain the US brothels in Vietnam, Okinawa and other parts of Japan to your daughter?
Do you say everything was the war crime as you describe? If not, what is the difference?

Let's take the issue back to the late 1920's, how do you explain the Comfort Women issue to your children, if you are fortunate enough to have them?
Are you going to lie and tell them it didn't happen or are you going to be honest and tell them that in Japanese history the Japanese people raped and murdered women for the sexual satisfaction of it's army.

I will say this when you can come here and admit that the Japanese Imperial Army is guilty as charged in regards to the "Comfort Women" issue I will tell you with all honesty how I educate my children about both of their heritages, American and Japanese,


The US lost in Vietnam, and they still has not fully acknowledged nor compensated for their crimes. Haha.


:-) :-) Wow I am glad to see that you read about history. Geez thanks for telling us the US lost in VietNam. (serious rolling of the eyes here)

:giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle:

Wow I never knew that you even knew that the US fought in Viet Nam. Geez, I should give you credit for doing a bit of research.

Great off topic post here.

[diceke]

:-) :-) Wow I am glad to see that you read about history. Geez thanks for telling us the US lost in VietNam. (serious rolling of the eyes here)
:giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle:
Wow I never knew that you even knew that the US fought in Viet Nam. Geez, I should give you credit for doing a bit of research.
Great off topic post here.
Welcome. The whole world knows that the US is a warmongering capitalist. :cute: :giggle:

Has the US admitted its defeat? Why not compensate?

[pipokun]

Please teach me English, obeika. What do you mean by "son of a gun". And when was the phrase coined?
Female victims in any wars have been the long-lasting issue without saying the recent 100 year senteced guy.

'Shoot refugees' Korean War letter went undisclosed
No Gun Ri survivors, who call the Army's 2001 investigation a "whitewash,"
are demanding a reopened investigation, compensation and a U.S. apology.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-04-13-korea-refugees_N.htm
I don't know why Korean people demand any compensation or appology for the military brothel in the Korean war. Probably you will also support them, right? Maybe a few years early?

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Obeika, I read somewhere long ago that Japanese people can't blame or think bad about their grandparents or parents once they died. Not so strange
because also in Dutch we say; About the death we tell only about the good things he or she did.

Do you insult a Korean?
One's daughter is kidnapped, and she is raped, Is there a parent consenting tacitly to it?
Did nobody help it?


[]Let's take the issue back to the late 1920's, how do you explain the Comfort Women issue to your children, if you are fortunate enough to have them?

It is very strange.
We are the future children.
And it is thought that they have the same doubt.
A crime without the evidence that there is not an eyewitness.
Non-logical testimony of a victim.
How do you explain these to children of the next generation?
Do not children in the future have the intellect?
The wonder story that I cannot explain it to children logically, and is such an abstruseness.
Please please teach it.

[caster51]

a movie in 1959 of the korean and Japanese comfort women (in china?)
this movie expressed well about them of that time.
a comfort wamen said their dream after war " I want to save money and buy land in Shinjuku to open coffee shop?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrVbpzuAhSo

[Ma Cherie]

Welcome. The whole world knows that the US is a warmongering capitalist. :cute: :giggle:
Has the US admitted its defeat? Why not compensate?


We're not talking about the US or Vietnam, if you want to discuss that then start another thread, don't sit and bicker with other forum members. You're the only here one who is stirring up nonsense, and you haven't really contributed anything valuable to this thread. I've read everything you said on this thread it's just pointless drivel.


By the way, has anyone looked at this link? Someone might have posted it, but I don't know.
http://www.comfort-women.org/v2/index.html

[caster51]

Comfort Women What do you think?
they were just prostitutes.
that is it.
Raping at that war in locals would be avoided because of brothel.
they did not need raping because of brothel.
forced thing was not needed because of money.
A lady might not win temptation of money at that time , too.
anyway raping and forced were not needed because of army's rule.

[hanachan]

We're not talking about the US or Vietnam, if you want to discuss that then start another thread, don't sit and bicker with other forum members. You're the only here one who is stirring up nonsense, and you haven't really contributed anything valuable to this thread. I've read everything you said on this thread it's just pointless drivel.
Ma Cherie,
Before diceke's post, I asked to Obeika:
"Why Japan doesn't demand apology of napalm bombing and A-bomb bombing from the US?", what sophism will you make?"
Then he answered:
"You want to know the "real" reason? Japan lost, plain and simple. Like it or not that is what it comes down to and oh btw that is not a fallacy but a fact."
diceke's words may not be so good, but it's not so pointless in the recent some posts. I think.

As Obeika's logic, is not Japan blamed if she won?
diceke and some of others reacted to this point.
Sorry, my English is not enough to explain well.

[pipokun]

...
By the way, has anyone looked at this link? Someone might have posted it, but I don't know.
http://www.comfort-women.org/v2/index.html

1965 Japan enters into a bilateral treaty with the Republic of Korea (though not Comfort Women's claims).
South Korea should have compensated the victims then.
Instead, the Korean government calculated the damage not only of the South, but also the North part and claimed Japan should compensate it.
Of course, Japan acknowledged the wrong-doing in the past and paid the money. But the Korean government spent it for their economic growth and unfortunately she had kept the diplomatic document secret to the public till recently.
(And it was a bit sad that a great Korean forumer here left here)

[hanachan]

By the way, has anyone looked at this link? Someone might have posted it, but I don't know.
http://www.comfort-women.org/v2/index.html
The Gallery page, I found some "not comfort women's" photos.
"国防婦人会" and "航空勤労奉仕隊" are not comfort women.
Is this site made with accurate knowledge? :okashii:
described:
1937-1942 The Japanese military sets up a network of comfort stations wherever it sends its' troops.
but not described:
1945-1951 Japanese government sets up comfort stations for the occupation army.
(However, you can see the photo of comfort stations for GIs at the Gallery)
"聖戦大勝の勇士大歓迎", "身も心も捧ぐ大和撫子の大サービス"
...humiliating ad.
It's a reality Japan lost.

---question
Anyone knows who is 徐玉子?
This site is her anti-Japan propaganda. no?

[diceke]

We're not talking about the US or Vietnam, if you want to discuss that then start another thread, don't sit and bicker with other forum members. You're the only here one who is stirring up nonsense, and you haven't really contributed anything valuable to this thread. I've read everything you said on this thread it's just pointless drivel.

Did you miss something? Go back to the preceding posts.

No, we are not talking about the US or Vietnam. I'm just pointing out to the hypocrisy of the victor's justice crap that Obeika claims to be a fact. One counter-example of the Vietnam War is enough to prove it false. Maybe it's best to put it this way: American exceptionalism.

[KirinMan]

Sorry, my English is not enough to explain well.

Do you actually expect people here to think that you have a poor understanding of English when you use use words like "sophism"?

I know for a fact that the majority of English speaking people that post here have absolutely no idea what that word means.

So what is your point?

[hanachan]

Do you actually expect people here to think that you have a poor understanding of English when you use use words like "sophism"?
I know for a fact that the majority of English speaking people that post here have absolutely no idea what that word means.
So what is your point?

My major at University was psychology, so I know some words not used often in everyday life.
But I'm not a native English speaker, you already know that I have many mistakes in my English. not enough. That's all.
Do you say to the handicapped who lost an arm, "Where is your arm?"
I don't say. I hope you don't, too.

Would you please go back to the topic?

[KirinMan]

Would you please go back to the topic?

Get back on topic?! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. What a joke,
You know what, you, and a few select others that are posting on this thread that believe Japan can or did no wrong should really take a moment to read that poll, read the links included in this thread, and the other thread about the comfort women and open your eyes.

I hope you all realize that all you are doing is beating around the bush with the same responses, and you and others are attempting to bury everyone with bulls**t, or ask inocuous questions, or change the subject and make comparisons to some other event in history, and the list goes on.
Have you read the poll recently?

Are you that thick to believe that these women didn't have something atrocious happen to them, do you actually think that it didnt't happen?
Answer me plain and simple here hanachan, if you can that is, if you can't I'll understand, it's because you're Japanese.

Do you think that all these women, making claims against the Japanese government and telling their stories about being comfort women are liars?

Give me a straight answer, no bulls**t please. a simple , yes or no. .
You know what, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

[KirinMan]

The Gallery page, I found some "not comfort women's" photos.
"国防婦人会" and "航空勤労奉仕隊" are not comfort women.
Is this site made with accurate knowledge? :okashii:
described:

I'll be like you here....
Which pictures, provide the link.:okashii:

1937-1942 The Japanese military sets up a network of comfort stations wherever it sends its' troops.
but not described:


Provide information that it didnt happen.

"聖戦大勝の勇士大歓迎", "身も心も捧ぐ大和撫子の大サービス"
...humiliating ad.
It's a reality Japan lost.

Trying to justify it here? I realize now that all of your responses on this topic have been from you own "feelings" and not based on anything else. Read through some more links and your eyes should open up some more.


"It is indisputable that these women were forced, deceived, coerced and abducted to provide sexual services to the Japanese military ... [Japan] violated customary norms of international law concerning war crimes, crimes against humanity, slavery and the trafficking in women and children ... Japan should take full responsibility now, and make suitable restitution to the victims and their families."

[KirinMan]

Please teach me English, obeika. What do you mean by "son of a gun". And when was the phrase coined?


Pipokun I'm sorry I missed this; here is the explanation of the term;
"Son of a gun" has its origins with sailors. When a ship was in port for an extended period of time, wives and other women were permitted to live on board with the ship's crew. Occasionally, children would be born on board and a convenient place for the birth to happen was between guns on the gun deck. If the child's father was unknown, the child was entered in the ship's log as "son of a gun."

Taken from this link;
Forward Garden (http://www.forwardgarden.com/forward/7955.html)

However the term is used nowadays as an expression of surprise.


Probably you will also support them, right?
I support all the women regardless of race, or nationality, that were forced into sexual slavery. That includes any Japanese women as well.

[Glenn]

Do you actually expect people here to think that you have a poor understanding of English when you use use words like "sophism"?

I don't think that's really fair. I know words like 音素 and 舌尖摩擦音, but that doesn't mean that I can always use Japanese as freely as I'd like. For instance, I still don't know how to tell people that the drain in my bathroom floor keeps backing up (tried it Saturday night and failed miserably).

Aside from that, sometimes you can look up a word in a dictionary and get an "equivalent" in the target language that's pretty esoteric, when it's a very commonly used word in the source language.

[undrentide]

I agree with Glenn.

When discussing such a complicated issue, it is difficult and often frustrating (at least for me) to express everything in English which is not my native language. I often wish I could discuss it in my own language...
The prospect of this frustration with the possibility of misunderstanding discourages me from joining some of th discussion threads here.
(Sorry maybe I'm being off-topic-ish.)

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Originally Posted byMa Cherie
By the way, has anyone looked at this link? Someone might have posted it, but I don't know.

http://www.comfort-women.org/v2/index.html


:relief:
I read about this site.
I was not able to find the evidence that the Japanese government or the armed forces of Japan kidnapped a Korean girl.
Possibly because I may overlook it,
Please point out a point of the evidence.

[pipokun]

Press Conference
Hirofumi Hayashi, Rumiko Nishino & Yoshiaki Yoshimi,
The Center for Research and Documentation on
Japan's War Responsibility (JWRC)
http://www.fccj.or.jp/node/2137
Tribunal testimony uncovered
These are official documents compiled by various nations, and the verdict also confirmed that women were coerced. Since Japan accepted the Tokyo war crimes trial verdict in signing the San Francisco Peace Treaty, it cannot ignore the significance of these documents," he said
http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200704160087.html
At a press conference, researchers will tell something about the issue.
But their logic sounds really strange to me.
They claim that they finally uncovered the secret docoments at the Tokyo Trials and that Japan must have responsibility for the issue again becasue Japan had aleady persecuted at the Tokyo Trials.
Needless to say, Japan accepted the judgments of the trials and of other Allied War Crimes Courts both within and outside Japan. And, of course, Japan had already paid reparation to the countries concerned. And the documents are not secret at all.
PRC and Korea were not invited to the Treaty of Peace with Japan, however Japan and the countries normalised the relations with bilateral treaties.

I support all the women regardless of race, or nationality, that were forced into sexual slavery. That includes any Japanese women as well.
I know you want to differentiate the issue of Japan and other military brothels by using the phrase, "were forced into". But be careful, obeika. Koreans may be upset if you say women at the military brothel in the Korean war were not forced...

[diceke]

Provide information that it didnt happen.

Again, someone's being illogical here. It's called a "probatio diabolica" (devil's proof, impossible proof):okashii:
It's like saying that there is no evidence that Obeika didn't steal the money. Therefore, Obeika stole the money! :wave:

[Susanoo]

Sadly the denial of war atrocities continues in Japan, Abe is taking the country back to its militaristic past, and has the gall to call this "beautiful."

[junjunforever]

This seems rather simple to me. What would have happened if the same occured today?

1. Japanese gorverment sets up ads for prostitutes in South East Asia.
2. Many apply and are sent to the Philippines
3a. The prostitutes want to go back.
4a. Their wish is refused; They are continuously raped.
3a. The prostitutes want to work less.
4a. they are raped forcefully.

And i am sure in many cases, prostitutes were never paid or even killed to avoid payment.

Again, this is the same era where Koreans were massacred after the Kanto earthquake, saying koreans caused the earthquake. In a losing war, i am sure prosititutes were killed, raped and treated inhumanely as well.

[diceke]

Needless to say, Japan accepted the judgments of the trials and of other Allied War Crimes Courts both within and outside Japan. And, of course, Japan had already paid reparation to the countries concerned. And the documents are not secret at all.
PRC and Korea were not invited to the Treaty of Peace with Japan, however Japan and the countries normalised the relations with bilateral treaties.

I second it. Legally, Japan does not owe anything any more because the reparation has been paid on a government to government basis, and the claims have been already settled.

1. The Treaty of Peace (1951) concluded reparation agreements with the Allied Powers, and stated:
"except as otherwise presented in the present Treaty, the Allied Powers waive all reparation claims of the Allied Powers and their nationals arising out of any actions taken by Japan and its nationals in the course of the prosecution of the war."

2. The Korea-Japan basic treaty (1965):
"rights and interests of the people of both contracting countries and other claims of both countries are solved completely and finally"

3. The Joo vs Japan case in the US courts add strength to the legal position of the Japanese government based on the above treaties.

4. The Asian Women Fund:
An additional private-government combined fund set up to compensate the individuals, including the Dutch, Filipinas, etc.; apologies from PM's issued. It shows that Japan has done more than legally required. South Koreans rejected the payments apparently due to opposition by their government and NGOs.

Whatever the truth is, the treaties will not change. Scrap the treaties, it may open up the possibilities for the Japanese individuals to demand compensation from the US, and also from Korea. Hey, why not? That's a good idea!

[KirinMan]

4. The Asian Women Fund:
An additional private-government combined fund set up to compensate the individuals, including the Dutch, Filipinas, etc.; apologies from PM's issued. It shows that Japan has done more than legally required. South Koreans rejected the payments apparently due to opposition by their government and NGOs.


I hope you realize that, the Asian Women's Fund was rejected purely because it was a non-government organization, the Japanese Government did not want to "officially" admit any compliance.

There was no official government participation in the fund, it was purposely ambigious.

Now for you diceke same question that I asked hanachan which she hasn't answered yet. Simple question, simple answer......

Do you think that all these women, making claims against the Japanese government and telling their stories about being comfort women are liars?


Give me a straight answer a simple, yes or no.

[Han Chan]

I hope you realize that, the Asian Women's Fund was rejected purely because it was a non-government organization, the Japanese Government did not want to "officially" admit any compliance.
There was no official government participation in the fund, it was purposely ambigious.

However, in 2001 former PM Koizumi did, in his letter of apology to Asian Women's Fund, acknowledge their work:

"Dear Madam,

On the occasion that the Asian Women's Fund, in cooperation with the Government and the people of Japan, offers atonement from the Japanese people to the former wartime comfort women, I wish to express my feelings as well.

The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women....."

Full text from the japanese Ministry of Forign Affairs homepage (Third item under Issue known as "Wartime Comfort Women"): (http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/postwar/index.html#issue):

[KirinMan]

Pipokun wrote;
I know you want to differentiate the issue of Japan and other military brothels by using the phrase, "were forced into". But be careful, obeika. Koreans may be upset if you say women at the military brothel in the Korean war were not forced...

Umm I never suggested otherwise, I can not image 200,000 women "volunteering" to do this type of "work".

Thanks for the advice though.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Sadly the denial of war atrocities continues in Japan, Abe is taking the country back to its militaristic past, and has the gall to call this "beautiful."

This is one of the examples to show evilness of war.
A huge fraud case
Even a general criminal case,
Though minimum logical proof is necessary,
Proof of a case is not done,
However, we are guilty.
If there is a logical thought, anyone wonders.:okashii:


1. Japanese gorverment sets up ads for prostitutes in South East Asia.
2. Many apply and are sent to the Philippines
3a. The prostitutes want to go back.
4a. Their wish is refused; They are continuously raped.
3a. The prostitutes want to work less.
4a. they are raped forcefully.


1.Why is not there the advertisement?
Were not they kidnapped?
2.If they kidnap her and rape her,
Why did they take her with them to the Philippines?
The non-efficiency.
3.A soldier wanted to return, too.
4.Their wish is refused;
They got a large reward.
A document proves this.
5.I am mysterious about this,
A rule at a prostitution place,
They always think about her health.
This has evidence.

[junjunforever]

This is one of the examples to show evilness of war.
A huge fraud case
Even a general criminal case,
Though minimum logical proof is necessary,
Proof of a case is not done,
However, we are guilty.
If there is a logical thought, anyone wonders.:okashii:
1.Why is not there the advertisement?
Were not they kidnapped?
2.If they kidnap her and rape her,
Why did they take her with them to the Philippines?
The non-efficiency.
3.A soldier wanted to return, too.
4.Their wish is refused;
They got a large reward.
A document proves this.
5.I am mysterious about this,
A rule at a prostitution place,
They always think about her health.
This has evidence.
i am sure not all Japanese soldiers were evil, and not all the military personnels treated prostitutes as dogs.

But they have enough proof and personal testimony that many of the military personnels did treat these women like dogs, and these women were raped and killed.

You cannot bring a piece of brochure that recruits prostitutes. People are claiming that even among those that went to make money, many did not return safely. Many died, were raped, and treated inhumanly.
Proof? Unit 731 Maruta, one of worst war-crime that even the most conservative cannot deny. If scientists can just kill people like tree logs, military people would have no problem raping and killing foreign prostitutes.

[KirinMan]

Proof of a case is not done,However, we are guilty.

Hiroyuki san, I truly appreciate your candor and honesty in admitting that Japan was guilty here on this issue. Of the Japanese members posting on this thread I think you are the first one to admit it as such.

Since we are in agreement here, I would like to ask you in all seriousness, outside of the issues of compensation and apologies how would you as a Japanese person see as the best way to educate further generations of Japanese children about this issue?

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

?Guilt?:souka:
I said in this way before.
I cannot judge a past act by modern law.
Establishment of the Anti-Prostitution Law is April 1, 1957
However,
"The Japanese government kidnaps her"
"A soldier rapes her"
If there is those evidence, we are surely guilty.
Therefore please show evidence to prove a story of a prostitute to me.
:p

ONEGAI SHIMASU.

[KirinMan]

?Guilt?:souka:
I said in this way before.
I cannot judge a past act by modern law.
Establishment of the Anti-Prostitution Law is April 1, 1957
However,
"The Japanese government kidnaps her"
"A soldier rapes her"
If there is those evidence, we are surely guilty.
Therefore please show evidence to prove a story of a prostitute to me.
:p
ONEGAI SHIMASU.

Noone is asking you about using current law to judge past actions. Rape has been a crime since almost well forever.

As other posters here have written "evidence" from within the government, which seems to be the "only" evidence that any Japanese person posting here will accept, was destroyed upon orders of the government at the time.

So.....pretty much only the testimony of the survivors remains.

Now then since you wrote this I ask you the same question that I asked hanachan, diceke, which they haven't answered yet either........

Do you think that all these women, making claims against the Japanese government and telling their stories about being comfort women are liars?

A simple yes or no will suffice....thank you.

[pipokun]

Do you think that all these women, making claims against the Japanese government and telling their stories about being comfort women are liars?

Koreans had been unfortunate that they had been uninformed that their government spent the compensation from Japan for their economic growth.

[diceke]

I hope you realize that, the Asian Women's Fund was rejected purely because it was a non-government organization, the Japanese Government did not want to "officially" admit any compliance.
There was no official government participation in the fund, it was purposely ambigious.
Ummm. You need to educate yourself. As I said, it was a private-government combined fund, it's clear that the payments are provided by the government as well as private individuals. Nothing is ambiguous.

The Dutch got the assistance, the Filipino women got it, the Taiwanese got it too; clueless as to why the S. Korean government and NGO's openly pressured the Korean women not to accept the assistance.

Now for you diceke same question that I asked hanachan which she hasn't answered yet. Simple question, simple answer......
Do you think that all these women, making claims against the Japanese government and telling their stories about being comfort women are liars?

Give me a straight answer a simple, yes or no.
Yeah, you are quite simple-minded. It's all yes or no, right or wrong. I don't believe in dichotomy, the question is nonsense, that's why I didn't vote.

Ask yourself: Does an honest person always tell the truth? Does a liar tell a lie all the time?

[Mikawa Ossan]

Do you think that all these women, making claims against the Japanese government and telling their stories about being comfort women are liars?
A simple yes or no will suffice....thank you.
Um...I agree that this question can not be answered with a simple yes or no.

[KirinMan]

Koreans had been unfortunate that they had been uninformed that their government spent the compensation from Japan for their economic growth.

I am not only talking about Korean women here but women from all over Asia that were a part of or involved in being comfort women.

It isn't just the issue of compensation as you know.

Oh and @diceke, thanks for attempting to answer my question in the best manner that you could. I really didn't expect anything different from you btw. You have been true to form.

It is "black and white", it is "absolutes", one either believes them or they don't.

It is that simple, but anyway :wave: bye.

Um...I agree that this question can not be answered with a simple yes or no.

There is an ulterior motive on my part for asking this in this fashion. However thanks for adding your comments here. :-)

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

So.....pretty much only the testimony of the survivors remains.

Eeeeeeeeee...............:shock:
If a story of a Korean prostitute is right,
200,000 Korean prostitutes and the 400,000 parents are illiterate?
Though 200000 people disappeared, is not rumor recorded?
In those days,
There are a photograph and the newspaper news about a Korean prostitute.
Though they were not a secret?
The Japanese armed forces had secret technology to delete memory of a person?
"She was kidnapped without being known to whom, and she was raped, and she was killed."
"but, anyone knows all with a newspaper in those days"
"She is raped, and she is thrown away,She is the same as garbage."
"But, the doctor did her medical examination regularly."
Your story is full of contradiction.
A document of the United States Armed Forces has the evidence that a Korean prostitute got a salary from.

I do not intend to deny it about Comfort Women emotionally.
If it is explained logically, and evidence is proved,
It is received guilt.

[KirinMan]

Eeeeeeeeee...............:shock:
If a story of a Korean prostitute is right,
200,000 Korean prostitutes and the 400,000 parents are illiterate?
Though 200000 people disappeared, is not rumor recorded?
A document of the United States Armed Forces has the evidence that a Korean prostitute got a salary from.

While the majority of the women were from Korea what about the women from the Phillipines, Dutch East Indies, Burma, and Japan?

Are you suggesting that all the roughly 200,000 women that "serviced" the Japanese Imperial Army did so of their own free will and all were prostitutes?

Are you infering that out of a population of roughly 20,000,000 people throughout Korea, that roughly half would be women or about 10,000,000 inclusive of all ages, about 200,000 of them were prostitutes?

Voluntary prostitutes of a hated "foreign" invader? Doesn't that sound even a tiny bit incredulous?

[hanachan]

I hope you all realize that all you are doing is beating around the bush with the same responses, and you and others are attempting to bury everyone with bulls**t, or ask inocuous questions, or change the subject and make comparisons to some other event in history, and the list goes on.
Have you read the poll recently?
Are you that thick to believe that these women didn't have something atrocious happen to them, do you actually think that it didnt't happen?
Answer me plain and simple here hanachan, if you can that is, if you can't I'll understand, it's because you're Japanese.
Do you think that all these women, making claims against the Japanese government and telling their stories about being comfort women are liars?
Give me a straight answer, no bulls**t please. a simple , yes or no. .
You know what, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

(What's bulls**t? At least I'm trying to be polite.)

Not enough to Judge Yes or No.
Their stories about being comfort women are true. Comfort women are just prostitutes, even if their backgrounds(circumstances?) should be sympathized with.
However, there is no evidence that Japanese army or government were involved with abductions and compulsion of prostitution.
If only one of evidences is submitted, I could answer Yes or No about your question.

Please do not please confuse it with Dutch women case in Indonesia.
Dutch women case in Indonesia is a special case that Japanese army officers forced them to be prostitutes. It was a crime.
It was punished then by Japanese army, and was judged after the war by Dutch government or military, and the persons concerned were sentenced to a severe punishment including death penalty.

[KirinMan]

(What's bulls**t? At least I'm trying to be polite.)
It is just a term meaning don't try to obfuscate or "explain" away the response, just answer yes or no please.

Not enough to Judge Yes or No.
Their stories about being comfort women are true. Comfort women are just prostitutes, even if their backgrounds(circumstances?) should be sympathized with.

However your responses are such that you don't believe their stories right?
They should be sympathized with? For what being coerced into what amounts to being human slaves?

However, there is no evidence that Japanese army or government were involved with abductions and compulsion of prostitution

Like I wrote earlier, not evidence that you or other Japanese will accept, as pretty much all the "evidence" that you will accept has been destroyed.

However the rest of the world believes these women. Time to accept that Japan is pretty much alone in attempting to defend this.

Pls read my reply to Hiroyuki Nagashima as well.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Like I wrote earlier, not evidence that you or other Japanese will accept, as pretty much all the "evidence" that you will accept has been destroyed.
It is only the supposition that you hope for.:souka:

In brief,
"There is not evidence to prove a crime."
You recognized it?

OK?

[diceke]

Are you suggesting that all the roughly 200,000 women that "serviced" the Japanese Imperial Army did so of their own free will and all were prostitutes?

You need to be aware the number is indeed a rough estimate, and not necessarily accurate. The estimates can vary greatly, but the accusing party tends to assert the higher number.:souka:

[pipokun]

...
Like I wrote earlier, not evidence that you or other Japanese will accept, as pretty much all the "evidence" that you will accept has been destroyed.
...
I showed you the evidence kept at your country.

And you support all women, right? But unfortunately I have never heard of any apology or compensation from the countries about the military brothel. Tell me what you learned the military brothel of yours at your country.

[KirinMan]

I read this today in the Japan Times the article is dated Wednesday April 18,2007 , I quoted it here because the Japan Times does not keep links active for extended periods of time and people would have to become members or subscribe to their services to read the following article.

Could this "finally" be the smoking gun that people will accept as "evidence"?
I think we'll have to wait and see the what further comes out from this.

Evidence documenting sex-slave coercion revealed (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070418a5.html)
Evidence documenting sex-slave coercion revealed
By REIJI YOSHIDA
Staff writer
A group of historians said Tuesday in Tokyo they have discovered seven official trial documents suggesting the Japanese military directly forced women to work at some of their frontline brothels in Indonesia, China, East Timor and Vietnam.

The documents were produced and submitted by the Dutch, French and Chinese governments to the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, widely known among Japanese as the Tokyo Trial.

The seven documents, which the tribunal adopted as evidence, eventually led to the Japanese military's actions being recognized as a war crime in a chapter on atrocities that was included in the tribunal's 1948 judgment, the scholars from the Center for Research and Documentation on Japan's War Responsibility said at a news conference at the Foreign Correspondents' Club in Japan.

The seven-document discovery may embarrass the Cabinet of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe as well as other conservative lawmakers who recently said there is no evidence proving the Japanese military was directly involved in "forcibly taking" women to military brothels.

"The Special Naval Police (Tokei Tai) had ordered to keep the brothels supplied with women; to this end they arrested women on the streets and after enforced medical examination placed them in the brothels," one document, titled Prosecution Document No. 5330, says. The report on "comfort women" in western Borneo was prepared by the Netherlands Forces Intelligence Service.

"Women who had had relations with Japanese were forced into there brothels, which were surrounded by barbed wire. They were only allowed on the streets with special permission," the document says.

The seven documents were initially made public at the war crimes trial from 1946 to 1948. Parts of three of them were briefly reported on by the Asahi Shimbun in 1997. Many former comfort women have given public testimony about similar experiences with coercion at military brothels.

But little of the seven trial documents -- officially prepared by three non-Japanese governments and used as evidence -- had been revealed to the public until now, which is why the war study center held Tuesday's news conference, said Hirofumi Hayashi, a professor at Kanto-Gakuin University and a research director at the center.

"I organized a brothel for the soldiers and used it myself," Lt. Seidai Ohara of the Japanese military was quoted in Prosecution Document No. 5591, dated Jan. 13, 1946.

Ohara was being interrogated about a case in Moa Island, Indonesia. Some of the women were unwilling to work in the brothel but were forced to do so anyway because they were the daughters of the men who attacked the Kempei Tai (Japanese military police), he said.

Hayashi said at the news conference that "the (postwar) Japanese government accepted the war criminal trial with Article 11 of the peace treaty" that was signed to end the postwar Occupation in 1951.

"Thus the Japanese government must admit the coercion and criminality of the comfort women system," Hayashi said.


Additional links;

Yahoo News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070417/ap_on_re_as/japan_sex_slaves)

Quoted from the above article;
"I admit to have slapped these women with the flat of my hand; I also ordered them to undress," the document quotes Shuichi Hayashi as saying. "I do not think these women were actually punishable, but their arrest ... was only a pretext to put them in a brothel."

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/17/AR2007041701380.html)

Quoted from the article above;
In one document dated March 13, 1946, and unearthed last year by Kanto Gakuin University historian Hirofumi Hayashi, Dutch prosecutors quote an Imperial Navy employee as saying women in occupied Indonesia were rounded up on phony charges so they could be forced into brothels.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

On a part of a document throat,
Is the evidence that kidnapped a Korean woman written?
:souka:

It is the official document which anyone can know commonly.

:okashii:

[caster51]

what a culture shock...
"Are there evidence of forced comfort womem?"
some of them are believing absolute truth that Japan did evil forced comfort women with no evidence.
Japan is evil, that is , it is not necessary to discuss for absolute truth that they think.......sinocentrism
these guys want to educate us by their thought..
is that a their mission ?
we need a document of at that time whether japan did it or not officially.
It doesn't see it in a very Western idea. :souka:
it is like a savage.
it is not a religion matter.
ladies were killed by witch hunt..
many innocent Japanese soldiers were killed by dutch for that because of faked witness by simple grudge and money .
bTW
Korean canselled next meeting of comfort women against Japan in USA.
why?

[pipokun]

Please reler to #144 here.
Nothing "finally" or "secret documents" is about the documents.

At a press conference, researchers will tell something about the issue.
But their logic sounds really strange to me.
They claim that they finally uncovered the secret docoments at the Tokyo Trials and that Japan must have responsibility for the issue again becasue Japan had aleady persecuted at the Tokyo Trials.
Needless to say, Japan accepted the judgments of the trials and of other Allied War Crimes Courts both within and outside Japan. And, of course, Japan had already paid reparation to the countries concerned. And the documents are not secret at all.
PRC and Korea were not invited to the Treaty of Peace with Japan, however Japan and the countries normalised the relations with bilateral treaties.

[KirinMan]

Caster did you happen to read this post by Elizabeth Van Kampen on this thread......Post Number 116. (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=456070&postcount=116)

In my opinion I think you and others posting here that refuse to accept this issue as fact, will continue to hide behind the "point" that no "Japanese language" documentation could be found to support it.

Read that post and you should feel comfort that you can continue to beat around the bush and continually refuse to accept what the rest of the world accepts as fact.

I pray that the day never comes that you or this country is placed in the opposite position.

Oh and btw, I have had the honor of meeting a Japanese woman that was forced into "sexual" service during WWII. It is very hard to not believe her and her accounts of the life she led, just to stay alive, while servicing the Japanese military men that came to her. Probably because of what I heard from her made me more than a little "unnerved" at the cavalier attitude that you and others posting here against this "Comfort Women" issue and the motive behind my question.

"Do you think that all these women, making claims against the Japanese government and telling their stories about being comfort women are liars?"

None of you are willing to accept the "chance" that the Japanese Imperial Army was even remotely connected with this issue. I've heard of 頑固の人, but this goes beyond that realm.

It is unfathomable.

A bit off topic here but I suppose you don't think Japan invaded Korea, China, and numerous other places in Asia either.

[pipokun]

I showed you the evidence kept at your country.
And you support all women, right? But unfortunately I have never heard of any apology or compensation from the countries about the military brothel. Tell me what you learned the military brothel of yours at your country.
I need your information.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

All evidence was burnt, and it was destroyed?
Why did the Japanese government leave a postal savings record of a prostitute?

[KirinMan]

:blush: :blush: :blush:
Geez now why in the heck did you change this quote from 12:26 this afternoon to;
On a part of a document throat,
Is the evidence that kidnapped a Korean woman written?
It is the official document which anyone can know commonly.

Instead of going "back" and rewriting a post why not be honest enough to leave what you wrote originally and write another post with this quoted information here? :okashii:

Quote:Originally Posted by pipokun
I showed you the evidence kept at your country.
And you support all women, right? But unfortunately I have never heard of any apology or compensation from the countries about the military brothel. Tell me what you learned the military brothel of yours at your country.

I need your information.
I hope you realize that you are quoting yourself here?:-)


Oh and what you wrote has nothing to do with "my" country, this topic is about Japan not the US or anything else.

[pipokun]

..
I hope you realize that you are quoting yourself here?:-)
Of course, I know.
Again, tell me what you learned the military brothel of yours at your country.

[KirinMan]

Of course, I know.
Again, tell me what you learned the military brothel of yours at your country.

It doesnt matter and has nothing to do with this topic, so please stay on the topic of "Comfort Women" and Japan. If you want to talk about US Military brothels then start another thread. OK?

[caster51]

Caster did you happen to read this post by Elizabeth Van Kampen on this thread......Post Number 116.
Allmost all papers, documents have been burnt. Just blowing in the wind.
is it a religion?:blush:
Oh and what you wrote has nothing to do with "my" country, this topic is about Japan not the US or anything else.
Korean has

[pipokun]

You think it is a war crime you cannot tolerate, right?

Don't get me wrong. I feel sorry for women who had to be in the situation and Korean people who had been ruled by dictators spending the compensation for their economic growth.

[KirinMan]

is it a religion?:blush:
Korean has

Caster, and "company" please read this post Post 172 (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=457702&postcount=172), and you might understand a bit better where I am coming from.

You think it is a war crime you cannot tolerate, right?
Don't get me wrong. I feel sorry for women who had to be in the situation and Korean people who had been ruled by dictators spending the compensation for their economic growth.

Why can't you get beyond the "compensation" issue and discuss the point of acknowledgement that the "Comfort Women" issue is a fact of history?

[pipokun]

Why can't you get beyond the "compensation" issue and discuss the point of acknowledgement that the "Comfort Women" issue is a fact of history?
Japan accepted the judgments of the trials and of other Allied War Crimes Courts both within and outside Japan. And, of course, Japan had already paid reparation to the countries concerned.

You will be surprised at the description of the Vietnam war in the fact_of_history loving Korean textbook. It does not tell anything about the brothel, rape or whatever you believe as war-crimes.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

If I do not misunderstand it,
This thread,
"Reliability of testimony of a Korean prostitute"
I thought so.
Only inspection of testimony of a Korean prostitute is necessary.
I thought that I argued about this inspection.
Therefore I pursue only its evidence.
Atrocious sex of the Japanese armed forces has no relation,
But you emphasize only a supposition.
Therefore it is strange.

[KirinMan]

Japan accepted the judgments of the trials and of other Allied War Crimes Courts both within and outside Japan.

Ok then come out here and tell everyone that you accept this part of Japanese history to be a fact. The "Comfort Women" was a fact, the stories of the "Comfort Women" are a fact, Japanese history should not be sterilized to create the image to the next and subsequent generations that this issue never occured.

And also that the current Japanese administration should not be attempting to rewrite accepted history, as you are a Japanese citizen as well.
As you wrote here Japan has accepted the fact that in it's history it is guilty in regards to the "Comfort Women" issue.

Remember one thing here, I do not blame you nor any currently living Japanese person that I know of for the atrocities committed during WWII including this "Comfort Women" issue. It is HISTORY, as I wrote before I have just as much reason to blame Japan for what happened, but I do not.

You will be surprised at the description of the Vietnam war in the fact_of_history loving Korean textbook. It does not tell anything about the brothel, rape or whatever you believe as war-crimes.

Again nothing to do with Japan and the WWII issue of "Comfort Women", again if you want to discuss that issue start another thread.

If I do not misunderstand it,
This thread,
"Reliability of testimony of a Korean prostitute"
I thought so.
Only inspection of testimony of a Korean prostitute is necessary.


Methinks you misunderstand this thread, ifrom this quote here, it is not about Korea or the Korean "Comfort Women" alone, but about the overall issue of whether people here believe that Japan was culpable and guilty in regards to the overall "Comfort Women" issue.

It is not just dedicated to Koreans. You voted in the poll, I created it, it was not just about Korea, but all women forced and coerced into sexual service for the Japanese Imperial Military.

[caster51]

I think Obeika has typicl Toku-A idea.
that is , there is no objective evidence.
Obeika is toku-a-nized or, he is...

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Though I go astray with a theme,
In your logic,
The soldier of the United States Armed Forces raped a Japanese girl in Okinawa.
A rape is an order of the United States Armed Forces headquarters.
Because the reason is because a criminal belongs to the United States Armed Forces.
The United States Armed Forces are guilty.
This is your logic.

[KirinMan]

I think Obeika has typicl Toku-A idea.
that is , there is no objective evidence.
Obeika is toku-a-nized or, he is...

No I think you refuse to accept either circumstantial evidence or direct testimonal evidence.

[caster51]

I think you refuse to accept either circumstantial evidence or direct testimonal evidence.
bring a doccument:blush:

testimony. there are many thestimony that Japan did not

[KirinMan]

bring a doccument:blush:
testimony. there are many thestimony that Japan did not

Beating around the bush again.........ahhh 疲れる,

"round and round we go where she stops nobody knows"

Good night folks.........thanks for another evening of :banghead:

Sleep well.:-)

[caster51]

"round and round we go where she stops nobody knows"
I thought it is your daily routine like toKu-a do.

[pipokun]

Obeika, no matter you want a fact you said. All Korean acitivists want is the apology and compensation.
About the compensaiton, it is the Korean govenment who should have given the money from Japan to the victims.

Remember one thing here, I do not blame you nor any currently living Japanese person that I know of for the atrocities committed during WWII including this "Comfort Women" issue. It is HISTORY, as I wrote before I have just as much reason to blame Japan for what happened, but I do not.
But unfortunately, the next phrase my Korean friend said (blamed) "it is currently living Japanese person who chose the current govenment".
All I said to her was that you should count how many SDF members killed people or were killed in the post-war era, though she seemed not to agree with me.

[KirinMan]

Obeika, no matter you want a fact you said. All Korean acitivists want is the apology and compensation.


Sorry I missed this before "signing" off...

When did I ever say "All Korean activists want is the apology and compensation"?

Now you are going overboard, please do not write things that I did not say here. :okashii: :shock: :mad:

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

I do not understand it for some reason,
The Korea government does not prove a crime.
However, they demand proof of a crime from the Japanese government.
In Korean society,
The accused should prove a crime.
It is mysterious society.

[Dutch Baka]

This topic is not an easy topic so please have respect for each other and keep it nice, otherwise I will close this thread.

[hanachan]

This topic is not an easy topic so please have respect for each other and keep it nice, otherwise I will close this thread.

Please don't close this thread now.
This is "the question of honor" for us.

[diceke]

yeah, close the thread. it's pointless.
Obeika ignores the posts of others when they make a valid point.
He only speaks, does not listen.

[Mars Man]

What I want to know from everyone here is which side of the issue do you believe to be true.

In due respect for our varying opinions, and the OP's obvious intent for this particular thread, on as equal a footing as I can percieve, I'd like to sugguest that the varying postions and opinions are most obviously set and to argue further, would probably lead to little benefit on either party's behalf.

I too, would once again urge care in not making personal attacks even if that were to mean a simple down playing of a person's ability or faculty. It might be good to take a breather before posting further?

お願いします！　:bow:

[KirinMan]

Please don't close this thread now.
This is "the question of honor" for us.

Which is more "honorable" admitting to a past wrong and working towards a peaceful future or sweeping the accepted past and it's facts under the rug and lieing to future generations that it never occured.

I think you know the answer to that one.

I also add this from a post I made last night......"Post 172 (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=457702&postcount=172)
Oh and btw, I have had the honor of meeting a Japanese woman that was forced into "sexual" service during WWII. It is very hard to not believe her and her accounts of the life she led, just to stay alive, while servicing the Japanese military men that came to her. Probably because of what I heard from her made me more than a little "unnerved" at the cavalier attitude that you and others posting here against this "Comfort Women" issue and the motive behind my question

"Do you think that all these women, making claims against the Japanese government and telling their stories about being comfort women are liars?"

Where is her "honor"?


Obeika ignores the posts of others when they make a valid point.
He only speaks, does not listen.

Out of fairness to you, oh and this is my last response to you on this thread btw.

Take the time to read what I wrote, put aside your emotions , and stay on this topic and not bounce it around to America, Viet Nam or anywhere else.

Just Japan and it's part in the "Comfort Women" issue from WWII. Then you will know why I ignored certain portions of posts.

Then take a look in the mirror.

[diceke]

Out of fairness to you, oh and this is my last response to you on this thread btw.
Take the time to read what I wrote, put aside your emotions , and stay on this topic and not bounce it around to America, Viet Nam or anywhere else.
Just Japan and it's part in the "Comfort Women" issue from WWII. Then you will know why I ignored certain portions of posts.
Then take a look in the mirror.
Are you serious? Take a close look at your posts. Who first said "America this, America that?" I didn't bring up all these topics about America. You did. I'm simply responding to you. You also brought up the topic about Germany, which, according to your logic, is irrelevant too. You are inconsistent and illogical. Take a look in the mirror, you ugly American!:okashii:

[Uncle Frank]

When a thread gets to the point it becomes a personal battleground and draws out so much anger, I feel it's time to close it.

Uncle Frank

[Dutch Baka]

This tread is closed for at least 2 days, the next time you kids want to argue again like this I will give infractions and this thread will be closed permanently.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Two days have passed. Thread reopened. Keep it civil this time!

[KirinMan]

Two days have passed. Thread reopened. Keep it civil this time!

Thank you.:-)

Now then this came from the Mainichi Newspaper;Mainichi News (http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20070421p2a00m0na012000c.html)
Dated 21 April 2007
Japan is responsible for the conditions in which women were forced to serve as sex slaves to Japanese soldiers during World War II, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe said in an interview with foreign press organizations, in what appears to be his latest attempt to juggle sweeping international criticism and his traditionally nationalist stance on the issue.....

(cont)

"We are responsible for situations in which they had to serve as comfort women," Abe said. He also said that as human being, he felt pity for them from the bottom of his heart. "As a prime minister, I feel truly sorry for them."




Well it's seems that he can't make up his mind on this issue.

[pipokun]

What do you want Japan to do?

[KirinMan]

What do you want Japan to do?
Thanks for asking. Well here it is...(Part One; acknowledgement and apology)
First have the Prime Minister go to the United Nations and make a speech in front of the General Assembly denouncing the Japanese Imperial Army for it's actions during WWII, to include all war crimes, including the coercion, kidnapping, and rape of the women from "Comfort Women" issue, among a list of other things as well. Making sure there is the maximum amount of exposure on TV and other media throughout the world.

Denounce all that oppose laws protecting women and children, particularly nowadays with the problems of human trafficing and call on all nations to work together to eradicate the reasons for this crime in the first place...poverty.

Included in that speech should be an unambigiuous apology to all women that were victims of being "Comfort Women".

Make a statement that all Japanese from this generation onwards will be educated about the horrors of war and that the Japanese Imperial Army and Government at the time were guilty of atrocities, including the Rape of Nanking, the Comfort Women Issue, and the human experimentation done within Unit 731. Express the deepest possible apology that a Japanese PM could make. Ask for forgiveness from the world community for not admitting and facing up to this horrific part of Japanese history. Ensure that by law noone from now on could ever attempt to retract or rephrase this statement in any way, shape, or form.

Next after the speech make an official tour of Asia and all countries, including Denmark, that had women that were Comfort Women. Offer apologies to the governments and people involved and meet with some of the surviving Comfort Women and listen to what they have to say. Go to the religious shrines of those countries and pay respects to the dead, including the Comfort Women dead as well, include them as official victims of WWII.

Help the healing process to finally begin for all of Asia. Be a leader and show others how to truly make ammends, no matter how far back the animosities run.
(Later Part Two; Atonement and Compensation)

[KirinMan]

What do you want Japan to do?
(Part Two; Atonement and Compensation)

Set up an official Government Agency fully funded by the Japanese government, no private funding whatsoever, to investigate and compensate women that were Comfort Women. Ensuring that the the guidelines or criteria are realistic. The amount to be given to those individual's can be decided upon by using guidelines established by other countries and their compensation policies.

However since there are few remaining Comfort Women, as you know most have or soon will die, use this Government Agency as a focal point in education and research regarding issues related to women and children. Human trafficing, poverty, violence issues, etc etc etc. Use the funding set aside for compensation to also set up centers in the countries where these atrocities occured. Help those countries educate their women and children about issues related to them. Become a true leader and ambassador for the world in these issues. Use the history as a starting point to educate people that this is what Japan did wrong, but now this is how we are working to save the future.

Make it for all women including Japanese.

Use this center also as the focal point of having ES/JHS/HS history textbooks reviewed prior to publishing, ensuring that these issues are prominently displayed and covered. Ensure that the future generations of Japanese people understand that this was a part of their history. Not "today" but the history of Japan, and ensure that they clearly state the issues and the positive corrective actions the Japanese people of today have done in creating a world where women and children are protected and honored as equals.

Make sure that the children should understand that they have no need to feel shame today for the actions of their ancestors, only to remember that to not study this would mean that it is possible to repeat it.

If by some chance all of this came to pass, from part one and part two of my posts here I think that all countries would let this subject die out.

Next I ask you.......
Pipokun what do you want Japan to do?:-)

[caster51]

I think Japan should not apologize to prostitutes.
it repeats only kono statement.it means it continues eternity by Yakuza logic
it is not solved.we shoud finish this problem.

[Mikawa Ossan]

What about girls who were sold into prostition by their parents? I don't know for a fact, but I'm sure this actually occurred. Should the Japanese government apologize to such women as well? Where does the responsibility rise in such cases?

[KirinMan]

What about girls who were sold into prostition by their parents? I don't know for a fact, but I'm sure this actually occurred. Should the Japanese government apologize to such women as well? Where does the responsibility rise in such cases?

I wasn't too sure myself on how to discuss this issue. It seems that from some of the information put here so far on this thread and on other threads on this subject, this too happened as well.

I highly doubt any parents are left that could answer the actual reasons why they sold off their children, and also what they were told their children would be doing after they were sold. The economic situation at the time probably gave the parents really no choice, either sell their daughters or watch them die because of starvation. Not a choice that I would like to be forced to make.

Throughout history, not only Japanese history but western history as well children were sold to pay off debts or to give the child a better opportunity in life.

In this situation my mind tells me that the government should not have to apologize in these cases, unfortunately my heart says something different.

[KirinMan]

I think Japan should not apologize to prostitutes.


Caster what is your definition of what a prostitute is?

What about women that are literally kidnapped, raped, and held against their will, into prostitution, do they deserve to be put into the same category?


In all seriousness here do you consider any or all women that have sex with men for money to be prostitutes?

Please answer these questions.:-)

[hanachan]

First have the Prime Minister go to the United Nations and make a speech in front of the General Assembly denouncing the Japanese Imperial Army for it's actions during WWII, to include all war crimes, including the coercion, kidnapping, and rape of the women from "Comfort Women" issue, among a list of other things as well. Making sure there is the maximum amount of exposure on TV and other media throughout the world.

There is still no hard evidence for the coercion, kidnapping, and rape of the women.
Is your purpose to show that Japan is inferior to your country morally? not to clarify the truth.
Here is PM Abe's interview with NewsWeek.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18233740/site/newsweek/page/3/

■慰安婦問題
Q：As you know, your comments on "comfort women" caused an outcry in the United States. Do you really believe the Imperial Army had no program to force Korean, Chinese and other women to provide sexual services to Japanese soldiers?
A：I have to express sympathy from the bottom of my heart to those people who were taken as wartime comfort women. As a human being I would like to express my sympathies, and also as prime minister of Japan I need to apologize to them. The 20th century was a century in which human rights were infringed upon in numerous parts of the world, and Japan also bears responsibility in that regard. I believe that we have to look at our own history with humility, and we always have to think about our responsibility.
Q：慰安婦に関するあなたのコメントは米国で抗議を惹� ｫ起こした。旧帝国陸軍が日本人兵士に性のサービスを提供することを韓国、中国、他国の女性に強いる ことがなかったと、実際に信じますか。
A：私は、心の底から戦時の慰安婦の方々に深く同情しなければならない。私は人間として、深く同情したい、また、日本の首相として、私は、彼女ら に謝る必要がある。20世紀は、世界の多くの場所で人権 が侵害された世紀でした。そして、日本もまた、その点 に関して責任を負います。私達は、謙虚に私達の歴史を 見なければならず、また、私達は常に私達の責任に関し て考えなければならない。
Q：Do you now believe that the Imperial Army forced these women into this situation?
A：With regards to the wartime comfort-women issue, my administration has been saying all along that we continue to stand by the Kono Statement [a 1993 acknowledgment of Japan's partial responsibility for the brothels]. We feel responsible for having forced these women to go through that hardship and pain as comfort women under the circumstances at the time.
Q：あなたは、旧帝国陸軍が彼女らを、これらの状況へ� ｭ制したと信じますか？
A：戦時の慰安婦問題に関しては、私の内閣では、河野� k話[慰安所に対する日本の部分的な責任を認めた1993年の表 明]を継承していると表明し続けている。私達は、それらの 女性を慰安婦として、苦難や、苦痛に直面させた責任を 感じています。

His apology was done as one of the countries concerned with the situation that human rights were infringed.
It may be a pandora's box for many other countries.

[caster51]

What about women that are literally kidnapped, raped, and held against their will, into prostitution, do they deserve to be put into the same category?
kindanaped and raped? even Today there are many Korean prostitutes by money. japan did not need that. it is enough to negotiate with money.
Even In today's Korea, prostitute refused to abolish the brothel to make a money
http://www.chosunonline.com/article/20040903000051
they really want to sell a SEX even today
http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/phistory/81000/20070422117719227055322200.jpg
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2007042184958
Police in Korea arrested five people for trafficking 443 underprivileged people, including the disabled, to sea farms and slave ships on remote islands. Three more suspects possibly involved in the smuggling ring are wanted by authorities.
The Busan Maritime Police arrested five people, including a Mr. Kim (48), and are searching for three more suspects possibly involved in the smuggling ring. According to the police, the smugglers allegedly put false advertisements in community papers promising jobs and monthly incomes of 2 million to 4 million won in early January.
Then they sold a 25-year-old mentally retarded man who visited them for a job to an owner of a fishing boat. Before that, they bought drinks for him, made him have a sex with a prostitute and burdened him with 5 million won of debt, the police said.
They also charged him 13 million won in pre-paid wage; he tried to escape from the boat three days after he was sold.
The offenders earned a total of 1 billion won in commissions and pre-paid wages for 443 workers by trafficking them to fishing boats and sea farming in Shinan and Jindo counties in Jeolla Province since 2005. The victims included the disabled, cancer patients, the homeless and the unemployed.
there is no credibility that they insist because of like that:souka:

[KirinMan]

There is still no hard evidence for the coercion, kidnapping, and rape of the women.

Also as you know there is no evidence to say it didn't happen as well. This one goes both ways.

One place this case is being tried is in the court of world opinion, and right now it doesn't help Japan's case to have a PM that seems to be back tracking from saying one thing and saying something else. His credibility is at issue as well.

@ Caster I am not talking about today, yesterday or any time in history. All I am asking is the following questions please answer them, it would help me understand what or why you keep calling all these women that were, comfort women, prostitutes.

I think these are valid questions and would honestly appreciate a reply.


Caster what is your definition of what a prostitute is?

What about women that are literally kidnapped, raped, and held against their will, into prostitution, do they deserve to be put into the same category?


In all seriousness here do you consider any or all women that have sex with men for money to be prostitutes?

[diceke]

There is still no hard evidence for the coercion, kidnapping, and rape of the women.
Is your purpose to show that Japan is inferior to your country morally? not to clarify the truth.
Here is PM Abe's interview with NewsWeek.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18233740/site/newsweek/page/3/
His apology was done as one of the countries concerned with the situation that human rights were infringed.
It may be a pandora's box for many other countries.

A quotation from Susan Sontag, Regarding the Pain of Others:

..one person's "barbarian" is another person's "just doing what everybody else is doing." The question is, Whom do we wish to blame? More precisely, Whom do we believe we have the right to blame?

[diceke]

Also as you know there is no evidence to say it didn't happen as well. This one goes both ways.

Logical fallacy for the second time? :blush:
The burden of proof is placed on you, not on her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ignorance

[caster51]

What about women that are literally kidnapped, raped, and held against their will, into prostitution, do they deserve to be put into the same category?
all can say like that " i was raped"..and so on.....as a false testimony

like today's korean society...overflowing of "crime of perjury"

[hanachan]

Also as you know there is no evidence to say it didn't happen as well. This one goes both ways.
One place this case is being tried is in the court of world opinion, and right now it doesn't help Japan's case to have a PM that seems to be back tracking from saying one thing and saying something else. His credibility is at issue as well.


the court of world opinion backed by Korea and China?
At least the US congressional research service seems to want to finish this issue, because they found no evidence about it.

Anyway this is not a popularity vote.
Even if Japan stood alone in the world, we cannot admit what we didn't.

[KirinMan]

Logical fallacy for the second time? :blush:
The burden of proof is placed on you, not on her.


Actually it all depends on whose point of view one is looking at the subject from, included in your link,

Argument from ignorance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ignorance) Also includes this as well;

A qualification should be made at this point. In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence despite searching, as positive evidence towards its non-occurrence. (Copi 1953)


Which applies to the "Comfort Women" case as evidence that the Japanese government once held at one time was destroyed. As this has been pointed out before.

So in this case Reductio ad absurdum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum) could apply as well, which places the burden of proof on those claiming otherwise.

It still comes down to which side one chooses to believe in. One other thing not to be forgotten here, as I wrote before the court of world opinion is against the Japanese on this issue.

Also please note that, if these events did not take place it would strengthen beyond a reasonable doubt, any arguments that had evidence to prove that there was no complicity on the part of the Japanese Imperial Army.

However, since there is actual evidence to support the issue, however limited it may be, it adds credenence to the aruguments that what is being alleged here in the Comfort Women issue is fact and not fiction. I reference in one case the cases of the women who were forced into brothel's in the Dutch East Indies.

If it happens one place, and as others have shown here, brothel's did exist, it is rather easy to assume that the same patterns of action occured in other locations as well.

Hence the burden of proof is not on me or those that believe these women but on the people that continually claim that it never happened.

As in the adage..."Where there's smoke there's fire"

[caster51]

I reference in one case the cases of the women who were forced into brothel's in the Dutch East Indies.
????
it was an opposite evidence because violation of army' rule was done and brothel was closed .
that is why Japanese militaly pohibited them who was forced comfort women

[hanachan]

I reference in one case the cases of the women who were forced into brothel's in the Dutch East Indies.
If it happens one place, and as others have shown here, brothel's did exist, it is rather easy to assume that the same patterns of action occured in other locations as well.
Hence the burden of proof is not on me or those that believe these women but on the people that continually claim that it never happened.


Dutch women case in Indonesia is rather evidence that Japanese army's rule worked well on brothel (so-called Comfort women) system. Some Japanese army officers forced them to be prostitutes against the order. It was a crime.
Japanese army punished them soon. After the war it was judged by Dutch government or military again, and the persons concerned were sentenced to a severe punishment including death penalty. (I think it's very severe punishment. and the executed man was innocent by mistaken identity. The true criminal concerned committed suicide in Japan.)
If you reference this case, be carefully.

[KirinMan]

Dutch women case in Indonesia is rather evidence that Japanese army's rule worked well on brothel (so-called Comfort women) system. Some Japanese army officers forced them to be prostitutes against the order. It was a crime.
..........If you reference this case, be carefully.

Whether or not the brothel was shut down or or not is not the point I am making here, the point is that it existed, and as no one has said otherwise brothel's existed, brothel's weren't the problem, the problem is how the brothel's were staffed.

And as this document shows THE JUGUN IANFU SCHEME UNQUESTIONABLY CONSTITUTED WAR CRIME AT THE TIME IT WAS OPERATING

Taken from this document,
STATEMENT ON COMFORT WOMEN ("JUGUN IANFU") (http://www.webcom.com/hrin/parker/j-cw-aff.html)

19. The international law questions in this case are
(a) whether the jugun ianfu scheme violated international law at the time it was operating;
(b) whether women and girls forced to participate in the jugun ianfu scheme have a right to compensation awarded by this Court.
20. In presenting my opinion on this question I will assume and acknowledge that:
(a) Japan was a party to the Hague Convention of 1907 (The Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague IV) and Annexed Regulations, Oct. 18, 1907, 1 Bevans 631 (the Hague Convention or the Hague Regulations)) at all times between 1937 and 1945 and was accordingly bound by its
terms;
(b) Japan was bound by customary international law in force between 1937 and 1945 and by that special body of customary international laws referred to as fundamental principles of law as in force between 1939 and 1945. Japan is currently bound by customary international law and fundamental principles of law in force now.
21. In my opinion the acts alleged by plaintiffs were violations of international law at the time they were committed and the plaintiffs in this suit have a right to compensation awarded by this Court as victims of the jugun ianfu scheme. The following defends this opinion.
THE JUGUN IANFU SCHEME UNQUESTIONABLY CONSTITUTED WAR CRIME AT THE TIME IT WAS OPERATING.
22. The Statute of the International Court of Justice recognizes customary international law and fundamental principles of law as sources of international law. (Stat. International Court of Justice, art. 38). This article duplicates a similar article in the earlier statute of the Permanent Court of International Justice. The sources of international law set out in these statutes had been universally recognized for at least several centuries. Under universally recognized principles of international law, customary international law and fundamental principles of law are legally binding on all states. While some few exceptions to customary norms are allowed as in the case of the "persistent objector", customary law that is viewed as jus cogens or that gives rise to obligations erga omnes are absolute and not subject to any exception. (See Karen Parker & Lyn B.Neylon, Jus Cogens: Compelling the Law of Human Rights, 12 Hastings Int'l & Comp. L. Rev. 411 (1989)(available in the Japanese language)).
23. Under the jugun ianfu scheme, the government of Japan abducted or fraudulently induced the recruitment of women and girls from territories under Japanese occupation, transported them away from their homes, detained them in special facilities, and allowed its soldiers to repeatedly rape them. A significant number of women and girls were murdered outright or allowed to die of injuries or starvation. Most were beaten and grossly abused. Many were forced to watch other women and girls murdered, beaten or abused. Food and medical care for them was grossly inadequate. Their living conditions were atrocious. In sum, the jugun ianfu scheme represented the nadir of inhumanity.
24. In legal terms, victims of the jugun ianfu scheme, were murdered, deported, enslaved, imprisoned, tortured by rape and other forms of torture, and subjected to inhumane acts.
25. During World War II these acts were determined by international legal experts and scholars to be violations of international law binding on all nations at that time

[pipokun]

...
Pipokun what do you want Japan to do?:-)

I personally want Japan to ask Korea where we can see the avalanche.

Declassified Documents Could Trigger Avalanche of Lawsuits
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200501/200501170025.html

[Mikawa Ossan]

I wanted to see the answer to this part:

(b) whether women and girls forced to participate in the jugun ianfu scheme have a right to compensation awarded by this Court.

But I couldn't find it, unfortunately. From Pipokun's article, and the related articles on that page, it seems that legally Japan is not under any obligation to compensate forced laborers any further. The only question I have here is whether that includes the comfort women or not.

[Han Chan]

I wanted to see the answer to this part:
(b) whether women and girls forced to participate in the jugun ianfu scheme have a right to compensation awarded by this Court.
But I couldn't find it, unfortunately. From Pipokun's article, and the related articles on that page, it seems that legally Japan is not under any obligation to compensate forced laborers any further. The only question I have here is whether that includes the comfort women or not.

As long as Aso remains FM in Japan there is little chance that the government will face up the the facts about forced labourers:

The Japan Times, April 25, 2006

"..During World War II, the Aso family's mining company used thousands of Koreans as forced laborers.

The legacy of Koreans, Chinese and other Asians being forced into slave-like working conditions across the region during the war, has become an issue in Tokyo's maintenance of normal diplomatic relations with its neighbors.

Aso's family background has led some to suggest that his position as foreign minister is untenable.

Meanwhile, a recent study by a group of historians in Kyushu has shed new light on the role of the Aso family in using Korean labor before and during the war.

The Korean pit workers, according to the historians, were systematically underpaid, underfed, overworked, and confined in penury. The workers were under 24-hour watch and released only with Japan's 1945 defeat.

Aso himself ran the Fukuoka company from 1973-79, when he entered politics. During that time he did not address its history of using forced labor, nor has he since..."

Full text:
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20060425zg.html

[Mikawa Ossan]

Forced laborers are separate issue from the comfort women, however, unless comfort women are included among "forced laborers".

[KirinMan]

I wanted to see the answer to this part:
(b) whether women and girls forced to participate in the jugun ianfu scheme have a right to compensation awarded by this Court.
But I couldn't find it, unfortunately. From Pipokun's article, and the related articles on that page, it seems that legally Japan is not under any obligation to compensate forced laborers any further. The only question I have here is whether that includes the comfort women or not.

Morally I would think that compensation would be in order, that of course is my opinion.

From what I have learned about this subject it appears that compensation alone is not what these women are looking for, but an aknowledgment that they were victims of sexual abuse and forced into those situations by the Japanese Imperial Army.

I also feel that these women want Japan to acknowledge that the Japanese government at the time was also directly responsible as well.

I have come to believe that acknowledgement and an apology plus the assurance that future generations of Japanese people don't work at brushing this subject under the rug would be or could be a possible closure to this issue.

That however is my opinion, it is the women themselves that have to decide.

I also must add that I never considered this from the view that these women could have been seen as forced laborers. Good observation, thank you.

[pipokun]

Tell me, obeika, why only (some) Koreans did not take the compensation from Japan.

[KirinMan]

First off I would like to compliment and personally thank all those that have voiced their opinions, thoughts and feelings about this highly charged, emotional, and divisive subject. I started this thread with the intent of mainly wanting people to vote on what their opinion was regarding this topic.

Over the course of one month, over 4,000 people have viewed this thread, and over 200 replies, yes a large percentage of them mine, were made here as well.

Many of the people replying here, including myself, have very different and sometimes emotionally charged opinions. This thread was also locked for a couple of days to allow "us" to cool off and take a step back and re-think the direction of the discussion.

Many sincere thanks to the Mod's, Advisor's and Admin here for not locking the thread and allowing it to continue. It would have been very easy to do otherwise.

What has happened, in my humble opinion, is that many people that are
reading and following this thread, whether intentional or not, are educating themselves about the topic at hand.

I also include myself in this.

Many of my thoughts and opinions on this subject have not changed, but I have rethought numerous times over the course of the past month what I personally would like to see as a viable solution to this serious international topic.

I also have been forced to consider the compensation portion of this issue as well. I must admit that I am not so sure that compensation, monetary compensation that is, is an answer to or solution to the problem.

I would hope that from now on those that are only viewing the subject would join the discussion and make their opinions, thoughts or feelings known as well. Whether or not you are in agreement with the women in question or if you are against them as well.

Please take the time to jump off the fence and join the fray.

Once again thank you all for "participating" and helping me for one learn more about my adopted country and how some people think about it's history.

Now back to the topic at hand........

[KirinMan]

Tell me, obeika, why only (some) Koreans did not take the compensation from Japan.

I think I answered this earlier here, and I can only speculate as well. In my opinion it is because the fund, the Asian Women's Fund, that was set up with the express intent of compensating these women was not an "official" government agency.

The women refused the compensation because their intent was to have the government of Japan acknowledge their pain and suffering and not be paid off or bribed off, by some quasi-official, but highly ambigious, organization that did not directly connect to the Japanese government itself.

The Japanese government, through this organization could stay out of the culpability issues that would have arisen if it officially sanctioned and officially funded this organization.

That again is my opinion about the reasons the women did not accept the compensation. Plus with their advanced ages, many want the satisfaction that the government of Japan admitted it's part in this atrocity, and are not looking for any money in the first place.

Thank you for asking this question.

[Han Chan]

What has happened, in my humble opinion, is that many people that are
reading and following this thread, whether intentional or not, are educating themselves about the topic at hand.
I also include myself in this.


I must also confess that I have learned quite a bit. I was impressed to find so many documents in the Ministry of Forign Affairs homepage where the wrong of the past are actually acknowledged. Specially I was positively surprised to learn that former PM Koizumi actually wrote at letter to the former comfort women where he expressed his "most sincere apologies and remorse".

Link to MOFA: http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/women/fund/index.html

I find that this resent discussion about the issue started when FM Aso claimed that evidence was lacking. Later PM Abe repeated this stance. Most lately Abe had to reverse his stance.

To my mind the main problem is that Aso, whose family became rich using forced labourers, became FM. Untill Japan gets a new FM there are going to be distrust toward Japan from its neighbours.

[hanachan]

To my mind the main problem is that Aso, whose family became rich using forced labourers, became FM. Untill Japan gets a new FM there are going to be distrust toward Japan from its neighbours.


However, Aso is our Minister of Foreign Affairs. You don't need to worry about it. It's none of your business.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Strangely, they received a salary in those days though it was a compulsion worker.

[Han Chan]

However, Aso is our Minister of Foreign Affairs. You don't need to worry about it. It's none of your business.

As this is not a "japanese citizens only" forum, I think I am perfectly entitled to express my opinion.

I am also neither citizen of USA or Iran, but I feel that I have the right to say that I dislike both Bush and Ahmadinejad.

I am not japanese, but half of my family are. Actually I love Japan and japanese people, therefore I am concerned with Japans relations with the outside world. Actually the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is the ministry which deals with the rest of the world, therefore it is expected that the FM should be somewhat diplomatic.

So I'll continue to worry!
:(

[diceke]

Which applies to the "Comfort Women" case as evidence that the Japanese government once held at one time was destroyed. As this has been pointed out before.
hmm, not sure if you are understanding what you are quoting. :okashii:

It basically means that if you have no proof that it happened, then it's reasonable to assume that it didn't happen. This presumption also applies in the legal systems as well. Otherwise, you can make anyone guilty of any crime.

From Wikipedia:
Law
In most modern criminal legal systems there is a presumption of innocence, and it is the responsibility of the prosecution to prove (usually "beyond reasonable doubt") that a defendant has in fact committed a particular crime. It is a logical fallacy to presume that mere lack of evidence of innocence of a crime is instead evidence of guilt. Similarly, mere lack of evidence of guilt cannot be taken as evidence of innocence. And, by exactly the same reasoning, mere lack of evidence of guilt against any person in existence for every possible crime cannot be necessarily taken as evidence of innocence--though if this were the accepted standard it would lead towards the absurd scenario where everyone is presumed guilty and all would be required to continually prove their innocence in court. For this reason (among others), western legal systems err on the side of caution. Simply the act of taking a defendant before a court is not adequate evidence to presume anything. Courts require evidence of guilt to be presented first, adequate for the court to find that the charge has been substantiated-- i.e., that the prosecution's evidentiary burden has been met-- and only after this burden is met is the defense obliged to present counterevidence of innocence. If the burden of proof is not met, that does not imply that the defendant is innocent. Hence, in such a case, the defendant is found "not guilty".

Well, you always generalize and jump to the conclusion. You have to show that the kidnapping by the military or the government was true, not only in the Dutch Indies, which was already judged "guilty", but also for the alleged 200,000 comfort women. The burden of proof is placed on you, not on hanachan.

[Han Chan]

You have to show that kidnapping by the military or the government was true, not only in the Dutch Indies, which was already judged "guilty", but also for the alleged 200,000 comfort women. The burden of proof is placed on you, not on hanachan.

The japanese government has already accepted the guilt. Ministry of Forign Affairs: "Recognizing that the issue known as "wartime comfort women" was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of a large number of women, the Government of Japan, together with the people of Japan, seriously discussed what could be done for expressing their sincere apologies and remorse to the former "wartime comfort women.""

Koizumi wrote in 2001: "The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women."

Hanachan, you actually also posted a interesting link to a recent interview with Abe.

The recent confusion is merely due to the fact that the present Foreign Minister Aso recently claimed that proof of guilt is lacking. Actually the previous LDP government accepted guilt. In a trail evidence is not needed when the accused accepts guilt. The case was closed. But Aso and a few right-wing nationalsts will not face this. They might think that they are defending the honour of Japan, but actually the are achieving the opposite!

[diceke]

The japanese government has allready accepted the guilt. Ministry of Forign Affairs: "Recognizing that the issue known as "wartime comfort women" was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of a large number of women, the Government of Japan, together with the people of Japan, seriously discussed what could be done for expressing their sincere apologies and remorse to the former "wartime comfort women.""
Koizumi wrote in 2001: "The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women."
The recent confusion is merely due to the fact that the present Foreign Minister Aso recently claimed that proof of guilt is lacking. Actually the previous LDP government accepted guilt. In a trail evidence is not needed when the accused accepts guilt. The case was closed. But Aso and a few right-wing nationalsts will not face this. They might think that they are defending the honour of Japan, but actually the are achieving the opposite!
We are talking about the discussion between Obeika and hanachan. Not about the government.

I know the Japanese government has already apologized numerous times since 1990's. I think it's more like a diplomatic gesture than anything else.

[Han Chan]

We are talking about the discussion between Obeika and hanachan. Not about the government. I know the Japanese government has already apologized numerous times since 1990's.
OK, I now realize that the argument is merely about wether proof of coercion in other occupied countries than Indonesia exists or not. As I think noone denies that wrongs did happen in the past, and that it is regrettable. I, frankly, find that insisting on continuing arguing about this does not make much sense. Lets all try to cool it a bit, before the thread is closed again. The vote illustrates that we do have different points of view. I find that we in this discussion should try focus finding common ground, rather than "hairsplitting".

[KirinMan]

OK, I now realize that the argument is merely about wether proof of coercion in other occupied countries than Indonesia exists or not. As I think noone denies that wrongs did happen in the past, and that it is regrettable. I, frankly, find that insisting on continuing arguing about this does not make much sense. Lets all try to cool it a bit, before the thread is closed again. The vote illustrates that we do have different points of view. I find that we in this discussion should try focus finding common ground, rather than "hairsplitting".

Well said and I concurr wholeheartedly. Thank you:-)

[diceke]

OK, I now realize that the argument is merely about wether proof of coercion in other occupied countries than Indonesia exists or not.
Isn't it what this thread is about? If not, we can now close the thread. Thank you. :souka: :-)

[KirinMan]

diceke I would like to ask you what is your nationality?

I see that your place of residence is Taiwan but there is no listing for nationality, could you please update your profile.

I ask this to try to understand where you are coming from on this thread, it does help people posting here, myself included.

Thank you

[KirinMan]

Well, you always generalize and jump to the conclusion. You have to show that the kidnapping by the military or the government was true, not only in the Dutch Indies, which was already judged "guilty", but also for the alleged 200,000 comfort women. The burden of proof is placed on you, not on hanachan

Perhaps you missed this Diceke did you by chance read this from this link;

("JUGUN IANFU")
(http://www.webcom.com/hrin/parker/j-cw-aff.html)

23. Under the jugun ianfu scheme, the government of Japan abducted or fraudulently induced the recruitment of women and girls from territories under Japanese occupation, transported them away from their homes, detained them in special facilities, and allowed its soldiers to repeatedly rape them. A significant number of women and girls were murdered outright or allowed to die of injuries or starvation. Most were beaten and grossly abused. Many were forced to watch other women and girls murdered, beaten or abused. Food and medical care for them was grossly inadequate. Their living conditions were atrocious. In sum, the jugun ianfu scheme represented the nadir of inhumanity.
24. In legal terms, victims of the jugun ianfu scheme, were murdered, deported, enslaved, imprisoned, tortured by rape and other forms of torture, and subjected to inhumane acts.

[KirinMan]

I would like to add some very sobering statistics given to the following;
UNITED NATIONS
COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS Fifty-first session Agenda item 11 (http://www.webcom.com/hrin/parker/c95-11.html)

I apologize to those that may find these statistics horrifying.

Japan has still not provided any compensation for its war-rape victims. As indicated by the rapporteur, as many as 200,000 girls and women were part of the Japanese programme of "comfort women" or jugun ianfu. Our research shows that more than 1/2 of the girls and women died as a direct result of the treatment they received. Many survivors were detained in the programme for 3 to 5 years. Most participants were raped 5 - 20 times a day.
Taking the lowest figures, at any given time, there were about 20,000 jugun ianfu. Each of them was raped at least 5 times per day. That means that there were at least 100,000 rapes per day arranged by the Japanese authorities and carried out by its soldiers -- 100,000 rapists per day. 100,000 times at least five days per week equals at least 500,000 rapes per week -- or 2 million per month -- or 24 million per year. Even assuming only 5 years of the programme, there were at least 125 million rapes -- 125 million rapes against the women of Korea, Philippines, Burma, China, Taiwan, Indonesia, Netherlands.
Mr.Chairman, do you think a country should have to pay something for having committed as a minimum 125 million rapes -- maybe even twice that many. Japan has paid nothing to these victims.
Lets look at the statistics from the point of view of a single victim. At an average of 10 rapes per day (still a low figure), and a five day work week, each comfort girl was raped 50 times per week or 2,500 times per year. For three years of service -- the average -- a comfort girl was raped 7,500 times.
Mr. Chairman, how much compensation do you think ought to be paid to a woman who was raped 7,500 times


The numbers are incredibly :shock: ing!

The following link is a continuation of the link provided in my previous post.
Legal Opinion on JUGUN IANFU Part II (http://www.webcom.com/hrin/parker/j-cw-af2.html)

I would like to add one thing here, I don't believe that there are many, if any, men left in Japan today that committed any of these rapes.

I put this here to show both the incredilble numbers and the gravity of the claims that these women have against the Japanese Imperial Army, and the recognition that they seek from the current administration here in Japan.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Wen: China Highly Values Japan's Remorse for War (http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200704130104.html)

[pipokun]

The private fund stuff may be a hypocracy, but it was also a hypocracy that South Korea had not disclosed the secret diplomatic documents, had not compensated the victims then, and have agitated people "Japan has not done anything to us at all".

a woman who was raped 7,500 times
Do you know a Korean plaintiff claimed her money she earned was 4 times more than the 1 year salary of army general then.
Just think why ultra-patriotic Koreans work as a hostess or a prostitute in other countries. It is sad for them, but it is for money.

[KirinMan]

Do you know a Korean plaintiff claimed her money she earned was 4 times more than the 1 year salary of army general then.

I notice that you have often brought up the point that these women were paid quite a bit of money at the time.

I have begun to wonder just how many of the military people that used the brothel's were actually aware of how the women were appropriated to work there.

Not having grown up or experienced Japan at that time in history I don't know how the Japanese people felt about kidnapping or coersion but I would think that if they, the men using the brothel's, knew that the women working there were forced into service and not prostitutes would quite possibly feel guilty or some other similar emotion.

I wonder if because they thought or were told that these women were professional's that made it easier for them to relieve themselves and their consciences.

Do you feel that just because these women were getting paid for their services justifies the manner in which they were forced into this work?

[gaijinalways]

I've seen the same tired arguement on another forum where a moderate right-winger tried to argue that all the women were prostitutes. We're not argueing that all of them were forced, but that obviously a good number were, including some Japanese women. Obviously, the government destroyed most of the paper trail, but why else would so many women come forward and say that they were kidnapped or tricked into being comfort women.

Strangely enough, Japan is the only country that clings to this odd position, that there were brothels, that they were only filled by agents (since modified as the government has admitted now to doing some procurement), and that the women all 'volunteered'. In a sense only Japanese want to beleive that all these women who claimed to be raped are liars. I see similar paterns with unit 731 denials, and also with the so called (in Japan) Nanjing 'incident'. Why is only in Japan do you hear these arguements raised and sometimes seriously believed?

Obviously the Chinese and Koreans don't help their own cases by exaggerating and using as a political card WWII references, yet their cases have a much more logical appeal (not a moral one) than the Japanese arguement. What I often find in Japan is that the arguement becomes an emotional one, with all or nothing(all the women were prostitutes, all the unit 731 were death row prisoners..), yet I just see a lot of twisting on technical grounds (we already paid compensation, Japan had not signed the Geneva Convention) or attempts to evade the issue (American soldiers used Japanese brothels during the Korean war, etc.).

These kinds of things don't address the main issue; were the women raped or not? Obviously some Japanese soldiers have stated they were (interestingly, most of them believe it wasn't wrong as they were following orders from the Emperor) raping these women who were not allowed to leave or only under strict conditions without any travel documents (somehow this doesn't sound like regular employment to me:okashii: ).

Lets just say Hiroshima and Nagasaski were never bombed, and Japan only wanted to help their Asian neighbors escape Western colonization (by subsituting Japanese occupation, much better:okashii: ). Then we know we really live in a utopian, patriotic Japan.

Truth, what's that?

[pipokun]

...
Lets just say Hiroshima and Nagasaski were never bombed, and Japan only wanted to help their Asian neighbors escape Western colonization (by subsituting Japanese occupation, much better:okashii: ). Then we know we really live in a utopian, patriotic Japan.
Truth, what's that?

Do you know how many times the Japanese asked for the reparation for the A-bomb or rapes by the US soldiers during the occupation?
- Never
I don't think the bomb is a super weapon which ends a war (this is because of country has used it).
But the Treaty of Peace with Japan is more important than the political game.
And look at the evidence Obeika claims. Everything is from the lawsuit which the plaintiff lost or crappy adovocate groups in the US, not Korea.

And don't forget that it was totally wrong, though I think she was wise, that the Korean government spent compensation from Japan for their economic growth and keep agitating "no compensation form Japan".

[gaijinalways]

Do you know how many times the Japanese asked for the reparation for the A-bomb or rapes by the US soldiers during the occupation?-

No, some Japanese citizens did attempt to bring a lawsuit, forgetting that Japan attacked Hawaii and was allied with the Germans in WWII. Not whether I am saying they should or not be compensated, just that Japan was not invaded in sense, and hence bombing almost always has victims.

As to rapes during the occupation, what does this have to do with my question?

Are you telling me all the comfort women who came forward were lieing (the 731 unit vicitms unfortunately can't say much since they are dead)?

And don't forget that it was totally wrong, though I think she was wise, that the Korean government spent compensation from Japan for their economic growth and keep agitating "no compensation form Japan".

This is a better point you bring up, but you must remember, the real size of the problem was not known until much later, and this still doesn't change the fact that they should be compensated and that the Japanese government also still waffles on this issue, and is only delayed from modifying (read whitewashing) their history books by outside foreign pressure. You are of course, familar with the Ienaga Saburo lawsuit as well? So even in japan there is some hope that the truth will come out, though the current LDP hopes to hide it until no one remembers anything but a patriotic Japan (one that doesn't question anything, in my mind).

[KirinMan]

gaijinalways wrote;
Are you telling me all the comfort women who came forward were lieing
Just to let you know, I've asked that question rather directly to a number of posters here and here a a couple of the replies,

This answer here was from diceke and while the others all side-stepped the issue. I at least credit him for being honest in why he could not reply, sarcasm aside.....

Yeah, you are quite simple-minded. It's all yes or no, right or wrong. I don't believe in dichotomy, the question is nonsense, that's why I didn't vote.
Ask yourself: Does an honest person always tell the truth? Does a liar tell a lie all the time?


Do you think that all these women, making claims against the Japanese government and telling their stories about being comfort women are liars?
A simple yes or no will suffice....thank you.
Um...I agree that this question can not be answered with a simple yes or no.


This one from Mikawa-Ossan, with regards to this reply I am interested in hearing why he wrote that it can not be answered with a simple yes or no.

I hope he stops by and reads this as well, and maybe we can get an idea into why he feels the way he does.

[Mars Man]

I think it might be best not to pull already passed points up again, as it could be seeding the rain clouds...and that could mass into a storm.

Mikawa san will have to answer for himself; I agree with him. The reason I would agree with him is simply because we cannot absolutely verify each and every story by each and every person. The word all in the embedded part of the quote from him is what has caused that problem, I'd tend to think.

I hope no more need be said than that, and that if and when Mikawa san does come and answers that, that it can be set on the shelf as it is. AGAIN, it may (and I do emphasize 'may') cause problems to try to rehash old statements in this thread. Thanks for your listening heart and ears. MM

[KirinMan]

I think it might be best not to pull already passed points up again, as it could be seeding the rain clouds...and that could mass into a storm.
Mikawa san will have to answer for himself; I agree with him. The reason I would agree with him is simply because we cannot absolutely verify each and every story by each and every person. The word all in the embedded part of the quote from him is what has caused that problem, I'd tend to think.
I hope no more need be said than that, and that if and when Mikawa san does come and answers that, that it can be set on the shelf as it is. AGAIN, it may (and I do emphasize 'may') cause problems to try to rehash old statements in this thread. Thanks for your listening heart and ears. MM

MM, thank you for your honesty here in replying. Question for you sir, how then can I or others for that matter ask if their, the comfort women's, stories are believable or not to other members.

I agree that all their stories can not be verified, mostly because of the passage of time. However for myself anyway, just asking whether someone believes them or not really has nothing to do with verification does it?