common recognizability of "Nippon" or "Nihon"

[ryu_the_seeker]

I am Japanese and am wondering if common educated foreigners know "Nippon" or "Nihon" means "Japan" or not.

Any answers appreciated.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Well, I'm not exactly common, but I know those as well as "Wa" and "Yamato". Although I don't think my family knows that Nihon or Nippon refers to Japan, during the war "Nip" was a derrogatory word used to refer to Japanese people in America. Therefore I would assume that many people of that generation would know Nippon, although they probably haven't thought about it much for years.

[nice gaijin]

Anyone who has studied (even a little bit of) Japanese or Japanese history is probably familiar with the term, as well as those who are interested in pop culture, but it's not exactly a common word amongst English speakers.

[yukio_michael]

Nor is it common knowledge at all, that it's Toukyou, not Tokyo... since there isn't any real system of double vowels that aren't diphthongs in English, the double-length syllable gets shortened to a single syllable. as well.

[dark_secrester]

Why is there a difference of Nihon and Nippon? Do the to words that both mean the same thing just come from different accents/dialects.
I got an airmail letter from a girl in Japan, and it says nippon on the stamps.

Would it matter which one you used?

[Uncle Frank]

Back in the late 40's and 50's , many things from Japan had "made in Nippon" stamped or written on them if I recall right. I think old Japanese money had "Nippon" on it also.

Uncle Frank

:souka:

[hkBattousai]

Almost no people here know what Nippon or Nihon mean.
I too wonder the meaning difference between Nippon and Nihon. I will appreciate if someone explains.

[ryu_the_seeker]

Thank you for feedbacks.

As for difference between Nippon and Nihon, there is no difference in meaning. It happens because most Kanji characters have several way to pronounce. In this case,

日 : nichi / hi / bi
本 : hon / moto / ppon

[nice gaijin]

The word "Nippon" still shows up on today's currency, and I see a lot of companies using it, but in daily conversation, it's almost always "Nihon." The characters for "Nihon" and "Nippon" are identical; it's just a different way to say the same thing. I'd just like to point out that "ppon" is not an actual reading for 本. It is a variation of "hon" that changes due to the sounds in the character before it.

Also, while there are dipthongs in Japanese, not all long vowels are dipthongs. The definition of a dipthong requires the articulation of the vowel to actually change (such as the English "eye" and the Japanese 愛/ai). While romanizations such as "Tokyo" don't express the length of the vowels, the quality of those vowels don't actually change, so it's technically much closer to the true pronunciation than "Toukyou," which might convince unknowing English speakers that those extended vowels dipthongs, when they are not.

Wiki Article (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%8C%E9%87%8D%E6%AF%8D%E9%9F%B3)

日本語では通常の会話においてアイ、アウ、アエ、ウイ 、オイなどが二重母音として現れやすい。しかし、ゆっ くり丁寧に発音されると母音接続となり、日本人の意識 では2つの母音として扱われる。
my translation

In normal Japanese conversation, ai, ai, ae, ui, oi, etc appear commonly as dipthongs. However, speaking slowly and pronouncing the vowels carefully, Japanese people are conscious of and treat them as two separate vowels.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Plenty of literature recognizes the more accurate names of "Nippon" or "Nihon" for what most English-speakers call "Japan". Some authors never refer to it as "Japan" or it's people as "Japanese" (among them William Gibson and Neal Stephenson come to mind). Mostly it's "Nipponese" with those authors, but they are few, and most English writers call the nation "Japan."

From what I understand, we call if Japan because of the Mandarin Chinese pronunciation of the kanji. The Portuguese recorded the term from the Chinese as "Sipangu" or "Zipangu" if I remember correctly, and it made its way into English from there.

I, for one, would prefer to go around saying "Nippon" and "Nipponese", but most people would either not understand or take a moment to figure it out.

[yukio_michael]

Also, while there are dipthongs in Japanese, not all long vowels are dipthongs. The definition of a dipthong requires the articulation of the vowel to actually change (such as the English "eye" and the Japanese 愛/ai). While romanizations such as "Tokyo" don't express the length of the vowels, the quality of those vowels don't actually change, so it's technically much closer to the true pronunciation than "Toukyou," which might convince unknowing English speakers that those extended vowels dipthongs, when they are not.I'm not refuting you, but every book I've read, and even the book, "The History of the Japanese Language" deny the existence of diphthongs in the language.

For a possibly unrelated example, however, take the kanji CHIKU / take, 竹

...when we say the word, aodake 青竹　(green bamboo), the take pronunciation changes to dake because of the ao it follows... I know this is not really what we're talking about when we say diphthongs, I think it's called something like (Mike Cash mentioned it once... to my query, and it slips my mind), phonetic transference... You probably know what I am referring to, but can you please explain an example of a Japanese diphthong?

Plenty of literature recognizes the more accurate names of "Nippon" or "Nihon" for what most English-speakers call "Japan". Some authors never refer to it as "Japan" or it's people as "Japanese" (among them William Gibson and Neal Stephenson come to mind). Mostly it's "Nipponese" with those authors, but they are few, and most English writers call the nation "Japan."Those authors are probably outliers, well, unless you consider Cyberpunk authors in general as outliers in their understanding or use of Japanese as a major focus to their works... I don't doubt however that authors who do write concerning Japan use these words more often, but I'd say specifically, those in the Cyberpunk genre, especially Gibson, are well known for it... he of course wrote of the sprawling "Chiba City"...

Offtopic: The Diamond Age, that's a book I'd like to read.

[Glenn]

As for difference between Nippon and Nihon, there is no difference in meaning. It happens because most Kanji characters have several way to pronounce. In this case,

日 : nichi / hi / bi
本 : hon / moto / ppon

Now try explaining how you get Nihon from those readings. :-)

Although I think the readings are more like this:

日: NICHI/JITSU/hi/ka (for days of the month; e.g. futsuka, mikka, yokka, etc.)
本: HON/moto

[nice gaijin]

I'm not refuting you, but every book I've read, and even the book, "The History of the Japanese Language" deny the existence of diphthongs in the language.Isn't that the very definition of refution? :blush:
For a possibly unrelated example, however, take the kanji CHIKU / take, 竹

...when we say the word, aodake 青竹　(green bamboo), the take pronunciation changes to dake because of the ao it follows... I know this is not really what we're talking about when we say diphthongs, I think it's called something like (Mike Cash mentioned it once... to my query, and it slips my mind), phonetic transference... You probably know what I am referring to, but can you please explain an example of a Japanese diphthong?
Yes, that example is unrelated. As the quote at the bottom of my last post stated, most of the sounds in Japanese commonly thought to be dipthongs (and certainly sound as such in normal conversation) are clearly separated into two separate vowels when speech is slowed down. This is the distinction between the English and Japanese sounds (such as eye and ai), in that they are considered a part of the same vowel in English, and two consecutive vowels in Japanese.

However, I've seen りゃ、りゅ、and りょ referred to as dipthongs as well. I will ask my professor, once the semester starts.

[Glenn]

How could those be referred to as diphthongs? There's only one vowel in them. At best if you don't count the palatal glide as a consonant, it's a semi-vowel, which still isn't a vowel, which means it can't be a diphthong (unless I'm misunderstanding what a diphthong is).

[nice gaijin]

I'm not quite sure why it was referred to as such, which is why I want to ask my professor. None of the sources online seem to agree; some say that there are, some say there aren't, and some say that there are (sometimes). I'm not within arms reach of a good book on the subject, so I'll defer to experience when the chance arises.

[Glenn]

Well, the question of whether Japanese has diphthongs aside (from what I've read they don't, but I'm curious as to what your teacher says), from pretty much every definition I've read online, from Mirriam-Webster's Dictionary to Wikipedia to the glossary of linguistic terms, a diphthong is basically two vowels connected by a glide and constituting one sound. The important thing here is "two vowels," which yôon (e.g. りゃ, りゅ, りょ) don't have, so I'd say they quite clearly are not diphthongs.

[yukio_michael]

Isn't that the very definition of refution? :blush: I only meant to say that I respect your knowledge over mine, I'm sorry.

[Elizabeth]

Plenty of literature recognizes the more accurate names of "Nippon" or "Nihon" for what most English-speakers call "Japan". Some authors never refer to it as "Japan" or it's people as "Japanese" (among them William Gibson and Neal Stephenson come to mind). Mostly it's "Nipponese" with those authors, but they are few, and most English writers call the nation "Japan."
From what I understand, we call if Japan because of the Mandarin Chinese pronunciation of the kanji. The Portuguese recorded the term from the Chinese as "Sipangu" or "Zipangu" if I remember correctly, and it made its way into English from there.
I, for one, would prefer to go around saying "Nippon" and "Nipponese", but most people would either not understand or take a moment to figure it out.
Of course they would. Drastically altering foreign place names in any language that doesn't have a built in system for importing foreign words is a perfectly necessary convention. Nippon is no further from Japan in English than Chung-kuo for China or Chosen as the Anglosizing of Korea.

In addition to company names and money I hear Nippon occasionally in the news in discussions of the North Korean nuclear talks, it's often shouted at sporting events....basically Nippon is slightly more nationalistic and most analogous to the difference between America and the United States.

I've never considered the difference such a big deal. Naturally it won't be commonly recogized by anyone without some familiarity in the language.

[Glenn]

Nitpicking: I think Zhongguo or, perhaps better, the non-standard (but fairly phonetically close for English speakers) Jonggwo would be better for China, if we were to pick a new name that more closely approximates the native pronunciation (that is if we're counting Mandarin as native Chinese).

For Korea I'm not sure what the northerners refer to themselves as, but the southerners use Hanguk, as in Hanguk-saram (韓國人(?), 한국사람, Korean people) and Hanguk-eo (韓國語, 한구어, Korean language).

If anyone actually knows Korean feel free to correct me there.

[Elizabeth]

For Korea I'm not sure what the northerners refer to themselves as, but the southerners use Hanguk, as in Hanguk-saram (韓國人(?), 한국사람, Korean people) and Hanguk-eo (韓國語, 한구어, Korean language).
If anyone actually knows Korean feel free to correct me there.
Well, anyway....I'm fairly sure I've heard secondhand that Korean call themselves something more similar to the Japanese pronuncation 'Chosen' （朝鮮） for the Korean penninsula/nation of people and Kita Chosen for the North. Could it be 'Choson' or 'Chosen' in Korean ?

At least it would be interesting if that turns out to be more phonetically similar to the Japanese than Hanguk to kankoku 韓国。And it is not just my evil, twisted Japanese side of the brain talking. :p

[Glenn]

I just checked an online dictionary, and according to it, 조선 (朝鮮, Choseon) is the old term for "Korea." (http://www.zkorean.com/dictionary.php?direction=ek&word=Korea) It's not your twisted, evil Japanese side of the brain. :p It is closer sounding to Japanese 朝鮮.

Of course, if there are any Koreans who can give definitive answers it would be appreciated.

[doinkies]

From what I've heard, North Korea calls itself 朝鮮, hence why NK is called 北朝鮮 in Japanese.

[ryu_the_seeker]

Now try explaining how you get Nihon from those readings. :-)

Although I think the readings are more like this:

日: NICHI/JITSU/hi/ka (for days of the month; e.g. futsuka, mikka, yokka, etc.)
本: HON/moto

Yeah, you are right. There are more readings than what I listed. It is hard to remind once for all :P

日: ni → 日本(ni-ppon, ni-hon) 日課(ni-kka) 日程(ni-ttei)

[Elizabeth]

From what I've heard, North Korea calls itself 朝鮮, hence why NK is called 北朝鮮 in Japanese.
Apparently both 韓 and 鮮 can mean Korea in Japanese. It'll be interesting to see what is used when there is eventual reunification.

[undrentide]

Yeah, you are right. There are more readings than what I listed. It is hard to remind once for all :P

日: ni → 日本(ni-ppon, ni-hon) 日課(ni-kka) 日程(ni-ttei)

I don't think 日 should be regarded "ni".
To be precise, it should be にっ, which comes from にち.

[JimmySeal]

Plenty of literature recognizes the more accurate names of "Nippon" or "Nihon" for what most English-speakers call "Japan". Some authors never refer to it as "Japan" or it's people as "Japanese" (among them William Gibson and Neal Stephenson come to mind). Mostly it's "Nipponese" with those authors, but they are few, and most English writers call the nation "Japan."

From what I understand, we call if Japan because of the Mandarin Chinese pronunciation of the kanji. The Portuguese recorded the term from the Chinese as "Sipangu" or "Zipangu" if I remember correctly, and it made its way into English from there.

I, for one, would prefer to go around saying "Nippon" and "Nipponese", but most people would either not understand or take a moment to figure it out.

So I'm supposing that these authors also refer to Spain as España, Germany as Deutchland, Greece as Ellas, and when they need a name for China, they type a long list of every romanized name for China from every Chinese dialect?

No, actually, they probably don't do that. And that makes them pretentious asses.

[Glenn]

...the southerners use Hanguk, as in Hanguk-saram (韓國人(?), 한국사람, Korean people)...

Found out that 人 is 인 (in),so 韓國人 would actually be 한국인 (Hangug-in). 한국사람 (Hanguk-saram), if written with hanja, would be a mixture: 韓國사람. Also, the language can also be referred to as 韓國말 (Hanguk-mal), which is less formal than 韓國語, and also as simply 國語, or 우리말 (urimal; lit. "our language).

This according to Wikipedia's page on Korean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_language).

From what I've heard, North Korea calls itself 朝鮮...

The Wikipedia article backs that up.

[nice gaijin]

Sorry to dig up an old topic, but I promised an update...

I asked my professor whether or not there are dipthongs in Japanese, to which she replied that there certainly are, but it's much more complicated than just finding consecutive vowels. The main point seems to be where the syllable barrier falls; is すいか comprised of the す and いか, or すい and か? The position of the syllable barrier determines whether it's a dipthong or consecutive monopthongs.

Things like morphology also come into play in words like 青い; just looking at the sounds themselves in natural speech, one might even consider it a tripthong. Observing the morphology of the word, namely that the final い becomes other sounds when the adjective is conjugated, it is more commonly thought of as a dipthong あお followed by a monopthong い.

So in short; yes, there are dipthongs in Japanese, but it's more complicated than that.

//edit: granted, despite this new development, I might have repeated inaccurate information or misused the term before. I'll try to be more scrupulous in my research in the future.