Rewriting History Again "Japan to Revise Books on WWII Suicides"

[KirinMan]

I first heard this on the news this past Friday evening. Once again the Japanese Government is attempting to rewrite it's history, this time in regards to it's own people. There are many here in Okinawa that are more than just a little "upset" at this.

Japan to Revise Books on WWII Suicides (http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Mar30/0,4670,JapanForcedSuicides,00.html)

TOKYO — The government ordered changes Friday to seven history textbooks describing how the Japanese army forced civilians to commit mass suicide at the end of World War II, the country's latest effort to soften brutal accounts of its wartime conduct.
The high school textbooks say the army _ faced with an impending U.S. invasion in 1945 _ handed out grenades to residents on the southern island of Okinawa and ordered them to kill themselves rather than surrender to the Americans.

The Education Ministry said there was no definitive evidence that the suicides were ordered by the army. The publishers were asked to modify the relevant passages and submit the changes for approval by a government-appointed panel.

"There are divergent views of whether or not the suicides were ordered by the army, and no proof to say either way. So it would be misleading to say the army was responsible," said Education Ministry official Yumiko Tomimori.
Since taking office in September, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has promoted national pride and sought to distance Japan from its post-World War II guilt. His conservative government has bolstered Japan's international military role and amended the constitution to require schools to teach patriotism.......


This time there is factual evidence that the Japanese Military personnel ordered the civilians to commit suicide. I have heard survivors of the war give lectures to Elementary, Junior High and High School students about this sad part of the Battle of Okinawa.

There have been movies made about this as well. Once again the government is sticking it to the people of Okinawa. Oh and if the Japanese soldiers didn't hand out the hand grenades how in the heck did the people get them in the first place? If a civilian was caught with them they would have been shot for pilfering military war material.

Also it's kind of hard to interview the dead Japanese military personnel who committed suicide themselves rather than be captured.

The battle in Okinawa raged from late March through June 1945, leaving more than 200,000 civilians and soldiers dead and speeding the collapse of Japan's defenses.

Accounts of forced group suicides on Okinawa have been backed up by historical research and testimony from victims' relatives. Historians say government propaganda led civilians to believe U.S. soldiers would commit atrocities, persuading them to kill themselves and their families to avoid capture.

But in recent years, some academics have questioned whether the suicides were forced, part of the wider push by conservatives to soften criticism of Japan's wartime conduct.


There is more in the article as well about other issues related to this recent spate of "work" by the current Japanese administration to soften it's own history.

[Elizabeth]

There is more in the article as well about other issues related to this recent spate of "work" by the current Japanese administration to soften it's own history.
Thanks for the post, Obeika ! I too was totally blown away by this fresh campaign of the Abe administration to whitewash inconvenient historical facts after the cost to its reputation Japan has paid for such past efforts.

For crying out loud, the stories of Okinawan forced suicides have been in textbooks since the 1950's. Is there any new evidence that casts doubt on those time honored accounts ? I don't think so. Some survivors have tried to seek compensation from the courts beginning in 2005. That's about the only thing that has changed except for the coming of a new government. :okashii:

It wasn't even clear from Japanese news accounts that these were suicides, although that would obviously be inferred by anyone with prior awareness of the situation. The term is 自決 which I took at first to mean "driven to self-determination." No mention of granades, number of fatalities or other such unpleasant details.

Hopefully unbelievably brazen moves like this this will make us all more vigilant observers of the Abe era and policies.

[KirinMan]

Thank you, it has been the topic of discussion the past few days among a number of "elderly" friends that I have, they are rather upset that the current administration is trying to belittle the horrific experiences that they had witnessed during WWII.

Okinawan people were not only induced to commit suicide but were also used as "human" shields by the Japanese military to protect themselves from attacks from the US Military.

Mothers had to smother their own babies to cover their crying, out of fear that the Japanese military shut in caves with them would kill them to keep them quiet out of fear of detection.

The Okinawan people had no other means of information other than what the Japanese military gave them, it is incredulous to think that they would have committed suicide on their own, first off it is not in the Okinawan people's nature. One has to understand the nature of the Okinawan people to understand this, to cut these ties by committing suicide is unthinkable. One must also understand the fear they had of not only the US military but also of the Japanese military as well.

Even though the prefecture was a part of Japan at the time there was not the "love" for the emperor in comparison to people that came here from "mainland" Japan. Also the familial connections that are so important here in Okinawa would not have even made them think to commit suicide on their own.

Lastly I find in rather interesting that "members" that post here defending the Japanese military for their actions in regards to "other" issues related to WWII don't find find the "time" to make comments in support of the current government actions regarding this issue.

Their silence is deafening!

[pipokun]

http://www.sankei.co.jp/kyouiku/gakko/070331/gkk070331001.htm
沖縄戦集団自決「軍命令」を修正　高校教科書検定

Do I have to translate this for you?

[KirinMan]

http://www.sankei.co.jp/kyouiku/gakko/070331/gkk070331001.htm
沖縄戦集団自決「軍命令」を修正　高校教科書検定
Do I have to translate this for you?

Before I answer this question, I am sorry but have a question for you, do you believe that the Okinawan people that committed suicide following the orders of the Japanese military at the time, through the propaganda of the Japanese military?

Or;

Do you think, in your opinion of course, that they did so of their own accord, without being forced?

It is just a link, and it says nothing about how you feel or what your opinion is about the matter.

[pipokun]

I don't think the court will judge anything about history, but the case against Oe is ongoing.

Their silence is deafening!
It is interesting that your logic is similar to the young Korean woman.
This is from the Seiron Extra. 02
Easy appology and unreasonable accusation, twisted codes blocking Japan-Korea friendship
Gim Wanseop, Korean writer and critic
O Seonhwa, Korean critic and professer of Takushoku University. (When Gim chatted with a young Korean woman)
She said my book was wrong. She means, if the Korean government teaches distorted anti-Japanese history to South Koreans and if the history we learned is a lie. Why does Japan stay calm?
If my opinion is true, she does not understand the slicence of Japan. She (Japan) is supposed to strong protest to our Korean govenment.
But no protest from Japan, it means that our historical claims are true.

You know much more that the loud anti-US base activists in Okinawa is not necessarily okinawa people, right?

[Elizabeth]

http://www.sankei.co.jp/kyouiku/gakko/070331/gkk070331001.htm
沖縄戦集団自決「軍命令」を修正　高校教科書検定
Do I have to translate this for you?
Have these revisionist testimonies been picked up by the normal press ? Sorry, but I don't believe anything only found in Sankei Shinbun. :okashii:

[KirinMan]

You know much more that the loud anti-US base activists in Okinawa is not necessarily okinawa people, right?

Oh yes, as you may know as well the people that stir up many of the problems regarding the bases here are not from here either.

Do I have to translate this for you?
Yesterday 21:17


I understood parts and the parts I didnt understand I'll get my wife to help out with, thanks for the offer though.

[pipokun]

Have these revisionist testimonies been picked up by the normal press ? Sorry, but I don't believe anything only found in Sankei Shinbun. :okashii:
What do you mean by the normal press?
For a non-American, I find Fox and NYT still play baseball at a ball park.

[caster51]

Akamatsu, He voluntarily shouldered the cross for them.
He endured well for the disgrace because of their survivor's pension or annuity by war.

If it was an Order , money was paid.

[highlight]

My god how is this even justified what possible evidence could deny the accounts of people there at the time at least people are aware of it and don't just let it happen.

[Ewok85]

Once again the government is sticking it to the people of Okinawa.


And also to every soldier and civilian who killed themselves who will now be recognized as having committed suicide dishonourably, instead of dying in the line of duty.

[KirinMan]

And also to every soldier and civilian who killed themselves who will now be recognized as having committed suicide dishonourably, instead of dying in the line of duty.

I am willing to bet that the govenment will find some way to gloss over this as well.

[caster51]

It happened in Tokashiki island,Okinawa in 1945
many civilian were educated americans were Devil.
because native american and Hawaian were conqured like Devill in the history.
it was natural for soldiers becuase of Bshido.
However ,civilians were not educated like that
some witness were appered last year. His name was Teruya-san.
the story is oppsitely . teruya-san said " soldiers told us to run away here ,then we are shield for you. however all soldiers was killed.
and we decided to suicide ......
after war, teruya-san visited Akamatsu-san(captain).
they committed suicide themselves. however , the suicide of civilian was not paid pension to family . than akamatu captain understood I forced them to kill themselves.
so pensions are paid to their family because they were killed in the WAR.
they said "Akamatsu is devil" in Japan
Devil of Akamatsu's stories were written in many books and School Text book that is an evidence of forced sucide...
However, recentry He was not able to endure it for Akamatsu's honor.
Akamatsu, He voluntarily shouldered the cross for them.
He endured well for the disgrace because of their survivor's pension or annuity by war.
He said "I decided to tell a truth. I demand him It is what he did a order for pension."
it is the other sad story
http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/22336.html
the young women comitted sucide.
However, this history was erased because they were not forced
http://fromto.cc/hosokawa/diary/2001/20010901-wakkanai2/d0901105312m.jpg

their good-by was aired in japan
they never give up their job until last

[Ewok85]

I am willing to bet that the govenment will find some way to gloss over this as well.

You can bet the families and relatives won't.

(At least in Australia and America where the memory and 'rights' of veterans is held very highly, such a thing as this would be political suicide)

[KirinMan]

You can bet the families and relatives won't.
(At least in Australia and America where the memory and 'rights' of veterans is held very highly, such a thing as this would be political suicide)
No the memories of all the dead, from all sides, are remembered here.Okinawa Prefectural Peace Memorial Museum (http://www.peace-museum.pref.okinawa.jp/index.html)

However and it is unfortunate that large numbers of Okinawan civilians were killed as a result of this war.

Included among over 100,000 cilvilians killed were countless numbers that committed suicide, mostly because they were educated to believe that suicide was the honorable way out and to die for the Emperor and country was preferable to being captured by the American's. Who were thought to be barbarians.

http://www.kodawariyasan.com/1club_html/okinawa/okinawa_image/m_oki17.JPG
All of the dead have their names engraved into the black granite and are memorialized here. There are over 200,000 names remembered here.

[caster51]

Included among over 100,000 cilvilians killed were countless numbers that committed suicide, mostly because they were educated to believe that suicide was the honorable way out and to die for the Emperor and country was preferable to being captured by the American's. Who were thought to be barbarians.
bombing to civilian discriminately, shoting and ..in front of them.
and in Saipan many cvilian were killed.
and you are fogetting" WHY?"
who know it as result.
they thought it was better than raping by american that was educated like Russain did at that time.
it is the other sad story
http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/22336.html
the young women comitted sucide.
However, this history was erased because they were not forced
This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 576x432 and weighs 43KB.
their good-by was aired in japan
they never give up their job until last
they were erased....
most japanese does not know it .why?
and american was educated like that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBxYy9rOVEk

EVEN at that time , no Japanese soldier wanted civilians to comitted sucide
who hope that?

[KirinMan]

and you are fogetting" WHY?"

Caster no I am not forgetting why and dont you forget it.

[caster51]

Caster no I am not forgetting why and dont you forget it.

NO,EVEN at that time , no Japanese soldier wanted civilians to comitted sucide
so was not Jpanese gerverment

[KirinMan]

NO,EVEN at that time , no Japanese soldier wanted civilians to comitted sucide
so was not Jpanese gerverment

Caster I think that before this gets out of hand with you trying to tell everyone that the Japanese military wasnt responsible for the suicides here in Okinawa I think you need to come here to Okinawa and do two things, go through the Memorial Museum and talk to the survivors.

You just might be surprised at what you learn about what happened here.

[Arch]

Thats pretty sickening even for outsiders let alone the residents of Okinawa. Ignorance is truly bliss, but how can someone really put themselves up to deny the facts in Okinawa.

I' heard countless accounts from people of Okinawa where they was ordered to kill family members with stones as surrendering is the most shamefull thing to do.

[caster51]

I think you need to come here to Okinawa and do two things, go through the Memorial Museum and talk to the survivors.
it is as same as Hiroshima case..
and saipan, Sakhalin..Mansuria
it is not only okinawan,
however
"That is how the citizens of Okinawa fought," wrote Rear Adm. Minoru Ota of the Imperial Japanese Navy in his final telegram to Tokyo before his suicide. "(I hope they) are granted special consideration in the future."
At the closing stages of World War II, Okinawa become Japan's only battlefield and tragically lost almost one out of three of the 600,000 inhabitants it had at the time. During the final stage of the Okinawa battle, Vice-Admiral Minoru Ota, naval field commander, sent a telegram expressing his admiration for the valor of the Okinawans' resistance and "sincerely petitioning that special consideration be given to the Okinawans in the future." The fine words are very famous in conveying the miserable state of Okinawa at that time and Okinawans' loyalty to Japan.
Whether Japan later showed the "special consideration" recommended by this thoughtful officer is highly dubious. In fact, it is rather easier to argue that the opposite was the case.
After the war, Okinawa was placed under US control and compelled to surrender its prime areas to US military bases. Even after Okinawa was returned to Japan in 1972 there was no change in the reality that Okinawa has to bear the main burden of the US military bases in Japan. Today, compared to the Japanese mainland, US military bases are concentrated 200 times more heavily in terms of land area in Okinawa and 300 times more heavily in terms of population. Far from receiving "special consideration," under the US-Japan security system Okinawa has had to bear a "special burden."
But conversely, it cannot be said that the Japanese government has done nothing for Okinawa. Since its return to Japan in 1972 the government has invested a large amount in the rehabilitation of Okinawa. Over the 24 years since the return, this has exceeded \5 trillion. However, Okinawa has still not found the key to independent development, and the income of its citizens remains the lowest in Japan.
However, the greatest cause of Okinawan distrust of the mainland is not money but the mainland's attitude toward it. In other words, the Okinawans doubt the commitment of the mainlanders to understanding the realities they live under, including their special historical burden and their special responsibility in Japan's security policy.
How do the mainlanders understand the contortions of history and the present state of Okinawa? How can we build common trust with Okinawans as fellow Japanese citizens? These questions are not only important background to our tasks, but form part of the tasks themselves.

MInoru ota
there is his final telegram
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A7%E7%94%B0%E5%AE%9F


I think Japanese Gerverment should do that okinawan want to do
so, in this case , I dont care this issue(rewriting...) because Okinawan is also Japanese.
I want them a honor
that is ,they were not forced.
they fought bravery
I dont want them to be like korean's mind.
USA should leave there

[caster51]

Thats pretty sickening even for outsiders let alone the residents of Okinawa. Ignorance is truly bliss, but how can someone really put themselves up to deny the facts in Okinawa.

what is the Fact?....

I' heard countless accounts from people of Okinawa where they was ordered to kill family members with stones as surrendering is the most shamefull thing to do.

?? is it a propaganda of chinese
if so ,they would not want to return to Japan again in 1972

[KirinMan]

I think Japanese Gerverment should do that okinawan want to do
so, in this case , I dont care this issue(rewriting...) because Okinawan is also Japanese.

That's very noble of you because on one hand you say that it should be left of to the Okinawan's and yet on the other hand you write.....

that is ,they were not forced.

Which btw is a crock of guano, tell that to my 80 yr old father in law who as a young teenager was forced to go to Manchuria and ended up in a Russian POW camp. Tell that to the countless numbers of people that were shot because they were talking in the local dialect, and the Japanese soldiers thought they were spies.

Want more.......take the scales from your eyes Caster.

I want them a honor
Then quit working so hard at spoiling their memories and put the blame where it belongs in this case, on the Japanese Imperial Army and Government of the time.

Give the honor back to the people who committed suicide on their orders, let them rest in peace, and let their families have peace in knowing that at the time, however wrong the information was, they felt they were making the best choice for themselves and their families.

Let history stand as it is, A reminder to all of the things governments and people will do to control the destiny of those around them. Let it be a strong reminder that peace is desired and war serves no purpose.

The Japan of today is NOTHING compared to the Japan of WWII, there should be no stigma directed towards the country for what its predecessors are guilty of. However if the government keeps on insisting on it's perceived need to rewrite it's wrongs it is easy to understand why neighboring countries and it's own people distrust it. Which is sad and dishonors all Japanese people that died fighting in the war. They died feeling that their cause was just and right. This dishonors them too.


Question for you Caster, try to image the situation, 1945 you an Okinawan, the US Military is overtaking you and your family...what are you going to do, kill them and then kill yourself?

Somehow I cant see you doing it, then again neither could I. But remember people dont take their own lives so easily, it takes thought and there must be no small amount of fear involved.
Killing your family to protect them? Unthinkable to me. If it wasnt for the propaganda of the Japanese Government and Japanese Military at the time it wouldn't have happened and that Caster is a FACT.


?? is it a propaganda of chinese
if so ,they would not want to return to Japan again in 1972
Caster you are walking a very fine line here, this is just too incredulous to comment on.
This is a joke, but I'm not laughing and do you know why? .....Please try and figure it out.

[caster51]

here is a testimony...
so, is this what japanese solidiers order and force to sucide?
If it means it is an Order and forced, it would be so.....
I can say it is a japanese tradition of war from ancient?
there is also sad story of Himeyuri girls...
they also were ordered by tradition? or Who?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uFt85WvesI&mode=related&search=
Since the enemy attack began, our Army and Navy has been fighting defensive battles and have not been able to tend to the people of the Prefecture. Consequently, due to our negligence, these innocent people have lost their homes and property to enemy assault. Every man has been conscribed to partake in the defense, while women, children and elders are forced into hiding in the small underground shelters which are not tactically important or are exposed to shelling, air raids or the harsh elements of nature. Moreover, girls have devoted themselves to running and cooking for the soldiers and have gone as far as to volunteer in carrying ammunition, or joining in attacking the enemy......[51]
The fact that a Japanese officer would admit negligence makes this passage especially important. Also significant is his comment that the men had been conscripted. This is not to say, as Ota points out, that some Okinawans were willing participants. Like all civilians who had been fed wartime propaganda, the Okinawans had unwarranted fears that accounted for their initial resistance and the large number of suicides. Many Okinawans made it clear that they felt they were fighting for their lives against the barbarous Americans, who would rape the women and eat the children. Once the civilians discovered the Allied troops did not intend to harm them, they surrendered and again became extremely docile. The Naval military detachment established to support the local population commented on their passivity, attributing it to 'great shock and fright,' but added that from that point on they were docile and cooperative.[52] Rear Admiral Ota also described the particularly horrific move south for the Okinawans: This leaves the village people vulnerable to enemy attacks where they will surely be killed in desperation. Some parents have asked the military to protect their daughters against rape by the enemy, prepared that they may never see them again. Nurses, with wounded soldiers, wander the battlefield aimlessly because the medical team had moved and left them behind. The military has changed its operation, ordering people to move to far residential areas, however, those without means of transportation trudge along on foot in the dark and rain, all the while looking for food to stay alive.[53] http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/okinawa/default.aspx

I think most case was like her testimony and case of Sakhalin
.

This time there is factual evidence that the Japanese Military personnel ordered the civilians to commit suicide
this one was an evidence of akamatsu case that was propagated as an order
then this propaganda had gone because of Teruya testimony
How were 80,000 civilians killed?
most of them were killed by bombing.
anyway civilians were not soldiers

[diceke]

What's the hidden agenda of the thread? Obeika's posts always confuse me.:?

[KirinMan]

Caster I dont get your point.....
Do you want to see the textbooks revised to say that the Japanese military was not responsible? Or not?

What's the hidden agenda of the thread? Obeika's posts always confuse me.

I think you are reading too much into something and don't take it at face value. I also think that the majority of "native" English speakers here would readily understand the point of this thread, if you have a question or are confused about something here please feel free to add it here and I would gladly explain it.:wave:

[KirinMan]

How were 80,000 civilians killed?

Caster over 100,000 civilians were killed here in Okinawa roughly 1/3 of the civilian population of the island at that time.

[diceke]

I think you are reading too much into something and don't take it at face value. I also think that the majority of "native" English speakers here would readily understand the point of this thread, if you have a question or are confused about something here please feel free to add it here and I would gladly explain it.:wave:

I just think it's funny you have a strange obsession with the evil Japanese military, and what they did to whom.:blush:

On the other hand, you say you don't want to discuss "how many people were killed by who or whom".:?

http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=467715&postcount=6

Anyway, what does the "majority of native speakers" have anything to do with it? :okashii:

[KirinMan]

I just think it's funny you have a strange obsession with the evil Japanese military, and what they did to whom.:blush:
Your words not mine, and to clarify something here I never refered to the Japanese military as being evil. However I am saying that the government and military at the time were responsible for many civilian deaths that occured here in Okinawa. The suicides also are a direct result of the propaganda used at that time. That is also a fact.

On the other hand, you say you don't want to discuss "how many people were killed by who or whom".:?


What difference does it make? There is no need to discuss the who killed whom. Both sides killed civilians, that isnt the point of this thread. The point is the Japanese Government NOW wanting to rewrite the history of what actually occured here in Okinawa and it wasnt the figment of the Okinawan peoples imagination either.

[Mars Man]

Interesting. The article in the OP is extremely similar to one which I had seen in The Daily Yomiuri a little more than a month ago, along with a couple of reports, or quotes from survivors.

Firstly I think it's stupid to work in the direction of editing out the possibilities of certain events/circumstances in history simply due what is argued as a lack of, or 'weak link' in evidence. The present climate of the political scene in Japan over the last several decades can well be said to evidence a growth in this tendency among some. The present Abe administration may be bending to that?

Regarding the acts and circumstances in history that make up the conflict in that era--especially here we are talking about the fighting over Okinawa--I am of the impression that much had been subtile, yet nevertheless fitting into a pattern, which, as pointed out above somewhere, was kind of 'Japanese-ish.' Without applying any value judgement on that aspect of Japanese thought itself, I would still say that it was a great shame that the society of that era had so little room for self-projection.

And now, for whatever it may be worth, I'd like to offer some moderating advice for the purpose of attempting to reduce stress build-up !

I have tried to read over everything as well as I could; have tried to understand everyone's points made, opinions expressed. And would like to offer the following:

Obeika's posts have been clear enough, I reason. There is no room for seeing the purpose of the thread for being anything more than just what the OP brings out.

There is no real reason to challenge any data or items which have been offered as evidence towards what had actually happened in Okinawa at that time here on this thread, on this thread, without first doing some fair and indepth research--just talking off the top of the head, or referring to sites that relate to similar or whatever things will not do. One needs to go to the libraries and do some real research. One needs to go to Okinawa and do some real research. One needs to investigate and cross-examine all the pertinent military historical records. One needs to spend a hand-full of years doing that first, then come back here and report it.

What has been said here, should also be allowed to just let stand as it is. I really don't feel, nor reason (at the moment, at least) that there is any need to challenge anything, but simply to state our understanding--of course, regarding offering evidences beyond what has come up so far, see above paragraph.

Now...let's do what we may to not let any bleeding come from other threads about similar matters, onto this one. Let's not let this thread become another meaningless battleground. Let's please just let this go for those who have not yet responded to this thread to do so, with as little aggressive counter-pointing as possible...PLEASE !!

[diceke]

What difference does it make? There is no need to discuss the who killed whom. Both sides killed civilians, that isnt the point of this thread. The point is the Japanese Government NOW wanting to rewrite the history of what actually occured here in Okinawa and it wasnt the figment of the Okinawan peoples imagination either.What difference does it make? Maybe the US has nothing to rewrite, because it hasn't faced up to the issues of war guilt in the first place.

How a nation treats its history isn't easy for any country, people do not agree on how to remember past events in history, but I'm glad to know that Japan openly debates historiography and the issues of war guilt/innocence, and historical interpretations can be constantly challenged, for the better or worse.
:cool:

[KirinMan]

How a nation treats its history isn't easy for any country, people do not agree on how to remember past events in history, but I'm glad to know that Japan openly debates historiography and the issues of war guilt/innocence, and historical interpretations can be constantly challenged, for the better or worse.:cool:

I can agree with a portion of this statement, however I don't see this as an open debate here in Japan. It is a decision made by the government and then implemented without open "public" discussion.

Not everyone here has been given their say and the feelings and factual historical events of what happened here in Okinawa and to it's people have been disregarded and ignored which is a shame.

[caster51]

however I don't see this as an open debate here in Japan. It is a decision made by the government and then implemented without open "public" discussion.

Hah?
we are debating it for 60 years
Now Akamatsu case is on trial.
his family accused kenzabro Oue and Iwanami pabulisher.

Ayako Sono, she wrote this inceident was a Myth in 1992
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/4569564763
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayako_Sono

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沖縄戦史の「神話的悪人」として記録される赤松大尉。太平洋戦争末期、彼は渡嘉敷島の村民から食糧を強制的 に徴発し、さらに三百数十名の住民に集団自決を命じた、とされる。果たしてそうした事実は本当に存在したの か?極限的状況に立たされた「人間」とは一体何なのか?―本書では、膨大な資料と現地踏査、そして真実をあ くまでも理性的に追究しようとする著者の真摯な思いが、惨劇の核心を白日の下にさらしていく。迫真の長編ノ ンフィクション。

[caster51]

Teruya 昇雄
he worked for Depertment of relief affairs at former Ryukyu gervenment in
50's
he investigated all ,hearing from all survivors in island...because of pension,condolence money ,etc by law of Victim's support .....

http://josaito.cool.ne.jp/togashiki/jiketsu.html

[KirinMan]

Caster have you ever been to the Peace Memorial Park in Okinawa? Have you seem the museum there, seen the pictures or read the stories that the surviors have shared?

Have you ever attended a "Peace Studies" or Heiwa Gakkshu that nearly every Okinawan child in the past 20 years or so has attended?

Have you ever been to Himeyuri no to? Or listened to a lecture by people who survived the horrors of the battle of Okinawa?

Even to this day children throughout Okinawa in ES's study and learn about these events and more.

The point is that this time no matter what the government says to the rest of Japan, the people here in Okinawa will never forget the facts of what actually happened here.

Please don't ever underestimate them, the Okinawan people, because they don't stand up and fight or openly debate issues such as this. The culture here is non-confrontational, but that doesn't make them weak or lessen their intelligence nor the length of their memories.

The memories of the people that died, from all sides in the conflict will forever be memorialized and remembered.

I pray for the memories of the dead every year, from all sides, and it is something I pray that the world never forgets, no matter what the "government" here tries to do to change history.

Whether YOU choose to accept or believe it is another story altogether.

Gentlemen please remember the point of this thread is for people to remember that people died here because of the propaganda and beliefs of the time in question, not because of our 20/20 vision of today. It is a shame to me personally that the memories of many very good and decent people could be tarnished because the current Japanese administration wants to change the facts about what happened then.

It is also known that many Japanese soldiers committed suicide here in Okinawa as well, including the Commanding General Ushijima. They committed suicide because of their beliefs, sad but true, and to them honorable.

However today society here doesnt view suicide in the same view as it once did. We all are using 21st Century thinking to look back at an event(s) that the overwhelming majority of us have absolutely no idea about, other than what we have heard through word of mouth or through textbooks.

In my opinion there is no reason for the current administration to need to open these old wounds and cause more pain and dispair for the families and relatives of those that died here during the war.

What purpose does this serve? Particularly for the local Okinawan people, I would appreciate someone here trying to explain that, thank you.

[pipokun]

no matter what the "government" here tries to do to change history.
At least, I am fully aware that people agitating "Japan chage histoy" also show another propaganda.

[caster51]

Okinawan's mass sucide is surely tragedy.
there was no hope to win.
Yamato was also sent to okinawa for that.
and that fight was honourable death of readiness...
we never do to forget that okinawa was place of ugly WAR.
we never forget to feel sorry to Okinawan.

However." order and forced to sucide" is a different problem.

The Democratic Party, Mr, Kan's speech for election about " propagada like Obeika said" was not accepted by okinawan

[KirinMan]

However." order and forced to sucide" is a different problem.

I disagree with you that its not a different problem, it is one and the same and like I wrote in my previous reply it is YOUR choice to accept and believe that it happened or not.

Caster I hope you realize that it really is difficult at times to attempt to carry on a conversation with you.

[caster51]

No its not a different problem, it is one and the same and like I wrote in my previous reply it is YOUR choice to accept and believe that it happened or not.
Caster I hope you realize that it really is difficult at times to attempt to carry on a conversation with you.
anyway okinawan did not accept themselves that you said .that is, order and forced.
you know that.?

it is YOUR choice to accept and believe that it happened or not

it is not religion, either.
if there is an obvious evidence , I would accept it

that is why I am always asking " are you chinese or korean"

so Beika means uncivilized?

[diceke]

so Beika means uncivilized?
I'm not so sure, but does Obeika mean double-talk?:souka:

[KirinMan]

In my opinion no one "wins" here if the government chooses to rewrite the history of what happened during the Battle of Okinawa.

The dead are dead, and nothing we can say will change that. That I am sure we all can agree upon. The memories of the dead remain alive with us that are living and in the memorials and books that have been erected or written in the hope that nothing like this ever occurs again.

The people that committed suicide Japanese and Okinawan's alike "believed" in what they were doing as "right".

It is hard for me to believe, from living here amongst the Okinawan people for as long as I have to believe anything other than they, the one's that choose suicide for themselves and their families in some cases, acted upon the information, education, and instructions of the leadership or government at that time.

For those that dont know it Okinawa does not have the same history as "mainland" Japan, even though it was influenced by the "mainland" for many years in it's history it didnt become an "official" part of Japan until the mid 1870's which is only about 70 years previous to the start of WWII. We live in a day and age where information flows through our fingers like water, but image if you can back then. The people only had access to information from what the government gave them, their education was limited to that and that alone. Nearly everything about their culture of literally thousands of years was outlawed and they had no choice. It was accept it or die. That was then this is now.

Let's not use the passage of time to assuage the feelings of guilt. What other reason could there be for the motivation to change what is written history now?

I say let's all of us let the dead rest in peace and let them live in our memories as honorable people, doing what they thought was just and right.

[GodEmperorLeto]

I'm going to preamble my following statements with this opening thought:

The Pacific War was a tragedy of epic proportions. Every war is tragic, but the Pacific War especially so. Secondly, war is war. I am an historian and a fan of military studies. I've studied wars and battles from Qadesh to modern Iraq and Afghanistan, and read everything from Sun Tzu to von Clausewitz to Vegetius. Like John Keegan said in his book The Face of Battle, "I have never been in a battle, nor have I been near one." None of us can imagine the psychological trauma of the phalanx clash, the cavalry charge into a pike hedge, or the bombardment of artillery shells into a trench, unless we've actually lived through it. And therefore, none of us has a lot of ground to go laying blame on people. There will be civilian casualties in war, and there will be collateral damage. And so long as there are humans, there will be war. This is a sad truth, and there's no point in debating it.

With that said...

The dead are dead, and nothing we can say will change that. That I am sure we all can agree upon. The memories of the dead remain alive with us that are living and in the memorials and books that have been erected or written in the hope that nothing like this ever occurs again.
Which is why revisionist history is so darn heinous and dastardly.

The people that committed suicide Japanese and Okinawan's alike "believed" in what they were doing as "right".
I don't agree with this totally. Plenty of women and children were forced over cliffs at bayonet point, from what I've heard. Then again, I may be wrong.

Let's not use the passage of time to assuage the feelings of guilt. What other reason could there be for the motivation to change what is written history now?
I agree with point two but disagree with point one.

Why? The vast bulk of the Japanese of today didn't fight World War II. They didn't commit any atrocities or war crimes. They are not guilty at all.

Nevertheless, the deliberate suppression of history in order to "save face" and support nationalistic political agendas is unforgivable, plain and simple. Caster is a primary example of this sort of miseducation, as the deeds (or misdeeds) of his ancestors have a direct impact on his perception and feelings of national (and self-)worth. Thus, in order to avoid feeling blame or perceiving oneself as wrong, he has bought into a lot of revisionist history (i.e. "there was no Nanking Massacre" and other historical falsehoods).

I say let's all of us let the dead rest in peace and let them live in our memories as honorable people, doing what they thought was just and right.
I think that's playing too much on the fence. Just because Custer thought slaughtering Lakota was just and right doesn't make him any less of a sadistic gloryhound that butchered hundreds (if not thousands) of noncombatants before he met his just end at Little Big Horn. We need to see the past as it was, objectively, because if we don't, we can't learn from it. Honor those who deserve to be honored, and remember those who were evil, criminal, and tyrrannical as what they truly were.

Those who committed suicide shouldn't be honored, in my opinion, but rather mourned. They died because of a lie. The Americans were coming not with rape and plunder in mind, but Hershey bars. My great-uncle's friend went Section-8 when he saw the people who committed suicide, incapable of fighting because of the bodies of women and children he saw. We may have dropped incendiary bombs on entire cities, but the vast bulk of enlisted men did not intend to despoil the Okinawan populace.

Honoring their memory rather than mourning their unfortunate deaths is backwards because it lends creedence to the entire situation. It legitimizes it. I don't honor the people who died at the World Trade Center, they didn't die for anything special, they died because someone hated both them and the U.S. They deserve to be mourned, but not honored. These are two very different things.

[caster51]

Mass Suicides in Japan During World War 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipicszv99Bc

[pipokun]

In my opinion no one "wins" here if the government chooses to rewrite the history of what happened during the Battle of Okinawa.

The dead are dead, and nothing we can say will change that. That I am sure we all can agree upon. The memories of the dead remain alive with us that are living and in the memorials and books that have been erected or written in the hope that nothing like this ever occurs again.

Again, you're playing your emotional game here...
Nobody is discussing the Battle of Okinawa in general...

Ayako Sono, she wrote this inceident was a Myth in 1992
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/4569564763
Read the book.

[KirinMan]

Again, you're playing your emotional game here...
Nobody is discussing the Battle of Okinawa in general...
Read the book.

Did you happen to read the OP and who started it in the first place?:-)

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

I'm going to preamble my following statements with this opening thought:
The Pacific War was a tragedy of epic proportions. Every war is tragic, but the Pacific War especially so. Secondly, war is war. I am an historian and a fan of military studies. I've studied wars and battles from Qadesh to modern Iraq and Afghanistan, and read everything from Sun Tzu to von Clausewitz to Vegetius. Like John Keegan said in his book The Face of Battle, "I have never been in a battle, nor have I been near one." None of us can imagine the psychological trauma of the phalanx clash, the cavalry charge into a pike hedge, or the bombardment of artillery shells into a trench, unless we've actually lived through it. And therefore, none of us has a lot of ground to go laying blame on people. There will be civilian casualties in war, and there will be collateral damage. And so long as there are humans, there will be war. This is a sad truth, and there's no point in debating it.
With that said...
Which is why revisionist history is so darn heinous and dastardly.
I don't agree with this totally. Plenty of women and children were forced over cliffs at bayonet point, from what I've heard. Then again, I may be wrong.
I agree with point two but disagree with point one.
Why? The vast bulk of the Japanese of today didn't fight World War II. They didn't commit any atrocities or war crimes. They are not guilty at all.
Nevertheless, the deliberate suppression of history in order to "save face" and support nationalistic political agendas is unforgivable, plain and simple. Caster is a primary example of this sort of miseducation, as the deeds (or misdeeds) of his ancestors have a direct impact on his perception and feelings of national (and self-)worth. Thus, in order to avoid feeling blame or perceiving oneself as wrong, he has bought into a lot of revisionist history (i.e. "there was no Nanking Massacre" and other historical falsehoods).
I think that's playing too much on the fence. Just because Custer thought slaughtering Lakota was just and right doesn't make him any less of a sadistic gloryhound that butchered hundreds (if not thousands) of noncombatants before he met his just end at Little Big Horn. We need to see the past as it was, objectively, because if we don't, we can't learn from it. Honor those who deserve to be honored, and remember those who were evil, criminal, and tyrrannical as what they truly were.
Those who committed suicide shouldn't be honored, in my opinion, but rather mourned. They died because of a lie. The Americans were coming not with rape and plunder in mind, but Hershey bars. My great-uncle's friend went Section-8 when he saw the people who committed suicide, incapable of fighting because of the bodies of women and children he saw. We may have dropped incendiary bombs on entire cities, but the vast bulk of enlisted men did not intend to despoil the Okinawan populace.
Honoring their memory rather than mourning their unfortunate deaths is backwards because it lends creedence to the entire situation. It legitimizes it. I don't honor the people who died at the World Trade Center, they didn't die for anything special, they died because someone hated both them and the U.S. They deserve to be mourned, but not honored. These are two very different things.

Thank you GodEmperorLeto,

I also love history, and I know that all history can be very ugly at times.
And you are so right, the Pacific war was a real tragedy.
So many people were killed, so many people suffered.
May I ask you a question? Do you know how many men, women and children were killed during World War Two? I mean in Europe and the Pacific?

It must have been millions of lives that ended far too early because of this most horrible war. I am always hoping that people will learn stop killing each other. That they will make Music or play any Sport together.
I suppose that only some creatures from another Planet can unite us?

But I also believe that there are far more good than bad people all over the world. A good leader (from any country in this world) must stand up and bring us all peace for several generations. Being open and honest is the best way of telling our great grandchildren the history of World War Two.

[KirinMan]

Those who committed suicide shouldn't be honored, in my opinion, but rather mourned. They died because of a lie. The Americans were coming not with rape and plunder in mind, but Hershey bars. My great-uncle's friend went Section-8 when he saw the people who committed suicide, incapable of fighting because of the bodies of women and children he saw. We may have dropped incendiary bombs on entire cities, but the vast bulk of enlisted men did not intend to despoil the Okinawan populace.

I honestly didnt look at it from this perspective, I guess it could also be from which point of view one looks at the situation that occured. In the states Americans honor the people that died in WWII and any war for that matter on Memorial Day. All war dead even those that committed suicide.

The Okinawan's honor their war dead as well on Memorial Day here. It's kind of hard now to distingush between how each person died here.

I feel that one can both honor and mourn a persons passing, and the people that committed suicide deserve that respect.

[KirinMan]

「集団自決」の検定前後比較／那覇市議会ロビー
　沖縄戦「集団自決（強制集団死）」の教科書検定を考 える展示会が十一日午前、那覇市議会ロビーで始まった。二〇〇八年度以降に使用される高校歴史教 科書から沖縄戦の「集団自決」における日本軍関与が修 正・削除された問題をめぐり、検定対象七社の修正前と 後の教科書十四冊をずらりと並べ、問題部分の原文と修 正個所を抜粋しパネルにして展示している。
　修正前後を比較したパネルからは「集団自決」の記述 をめぐり、「日本軍に『集団自決』を強いられたり」が 「追いつめられて『集団自決』した人」に変わっている など、記述から「日本軍」という主語がすっぽり抜け落 ちていることがはっきりと分かる。同展は検定意見を撤 回するよう求める意見書案を先月十五日に可決した同市 議会が主催。六月定例会期中の十五日まで展示している 。

　開会式で、久高将光議長は「市民、職員が平和を考え る原点として沖縄戦について考えていただくことを強く 訴えたい」と話し市民の来場を呼び掛けた。


A "google" translation....

As for the Naha mayor troop participation deletion regrettable/“group suicide” correction
　Aspiration Naha Mayor old man length on the 11th, in the city assembly June conventional meeting which is in the midst of the opening of meeting “group suicide (forced group death)” to with the problem where the description regarding the participation of the Japanese military is deleted from the historical textbook of high school, “(judgment) is in the midst of disputing, but as for deletion at the stage where either irrevocable judgment has not come out regrettable you expressed truly”.
　Furthermore “from many testimonies it makes clear that the fact that several hundred inhabitants commit suicide is fact, is something by the grenade where the many of them are handed from the troop” “the inhabitant and the troop exist together and from the fact that it is to display the thusness of the miserable Okinawa game which is developed, there is no thing which is impaired rather,”, opinion was expressed that.

　High it is good Masayuki (our people non post combination) the reply


Not a great translation but enough for people to get the idea. There was a rather large demonstration here in Okinawa against the proposed re-writing of the text books with regards to the suicide issue during WWII. The Naha City office has displayed the old textbooks and the new textbooks with the proposed revision(s). There is a petition and signature campaign going on now with the plan of submitting it to the Education Minister against allowing these proposed changes. They have alread collected something in the neighborhood of 35,000 signatures over the past weekend alone in the area around the demonstration, which was held across the street from the Prefectural Office building.

Numerous speakers at the demonstration, people who were there during WWII testified and told the assembled crowd of thousands, what everyone knew, "The Japanese Government and Japanese Military at the time expressly instructed and ordered the Okinawan people, for Emperor and Country that they should commit suicide, rather than be captured by the US Military"

Their testimonies and recounting of what they experienced was emotional and extrememly moving.

The "grass-roots" movement has started, it shall be interesting how the government responds to the Okinawan people.

[caster51]

Furthermore “from many testimonies it makes clear that the fact that several hundred inhabitants commit suicide is fact, is something by the grenade where the many of them are handed from the troop

where part did you translate?

[Mikawa Ossan]

where part did you translate?
I have to agree. I saw nothing about a hand granade in the Japanese text.

[KirinMan]

I have to agree. I saw nothing about a hand granade in the Japanese text.

I agree that the translation wasn't perfect as I wrote it was a "google" translation. Here is the link to the English article;

Title Page As for the Naha mayor troop participation deletion regrettable/“group suicide” correction article
(http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.okinawatimes.co.jp/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25E6%25B2%2596%25E7%25B8%2584%25E3%2 582%25BF%25E3%2582%25A4%25E3%2583%25A0%25E3%2582%2 5B9%26hl%3Den)

and the translated article itself...

English translated article itself (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.okinawatimes.co.jp/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25E6%25B2%2596%25E7%25B8%2584%25E3%2 582%25BF%25E3%2582%25A4%25E3%2583%25A0%25E3%2582%2 5B9%26hl%3Den)


Japanese article and link....

那覇市長　軍関与削除は遺憾／「集団自決」修正 (http://www.okinawatimes.co.jp/day/200706111700_01.html)

The broadcast about the demonstration was on the local news this evening here in Okinawa

[caster51]

(hand)grenade is bushi no nasake because it is easy and there is no pain
.Japanese article and link....
那覇市長　軍関与削除は遺憾／「集団自決」修正

the truth was that grenade was given by soldiers..

there was no evidence that was forced

[KirinMan]

RBC News Video (http://www.rbc-ryukyu.co.jp/wmv/0611-01.asx) in Japanese.

歴史教科書の検定問題で検定前後の教科書を比較した展 示会が那覇市で開かれています。
　この展示会は軍命削除に抗議する意見書を可決した那 覇市議会が開催していて沖縄戦の集団自決をめぐり、日 本軍の関与を示す記述が削除された教科書と修正前の教 科書を比較展示しています。
　１１日の午前、那覇市議会のロビーで開会式が行われ那覇市議会の久高議長が「この展示会 を市民が平和を考える原点としてほしい」と述べ多くの 市民に来場を呼びかけました。
　展示会では検定前後の教科書の展示に加え修正部分を 抜き出したパネルも展示されていて検定による内容の変 更が一目でわかるように工夫されています。
　この展示会は、今月１５日まで開かれています。


Taken from;
RBC News (http://www.rbc-ryukyu.co.jp/rnews.php?itemid=11007#more)

[caster51]

I cant understand what you are talking.
How long have you been in Japan?

they never said that was forced in these article.
In new textbook, there were cornered...

i think it is correct description

[MummyMia]

I still have a lot to read on this thread and I am finding it very informing. My knowledge of history is very sketchy so I am reading and learning from the posts on here. My one question is HAS ANYONE GOT THE RIGHT TO REWRITE HISTORY? In every country there are events in history that are disputed, but has anyone got the right to simply rewrite these events? I would have thought the best for all people who have yet to learn history is to incorporate new feelings and thoughts along with the original history, not to change it!!

[KirinMan]

Demonstration Video from Saturday June 9th (http://www.rbc-ryukyu.co.jp/wmv/0611-02.asx)

This video is taken from this page;
RBC News (http://www.rbc-ryukyu.co.jp/rnews.php?&blogid=4)
教科書検定問題をめぐってはおととい、抗議の県民集会 が開かれました。
　歴史の歪曲だと反発の声が高まっています。


I cant understand what you are talking.
How long have you been in Japan?

Caster are you trying to say you can't understand what the links I put here in Japanese are saying? They have video from this evenings local news here in Okinawa. Unfortunately they are all in Japanese.

However without any doubt they give proof that the Okinawan people are not standing by and letting the education ministry and government get away with attempting to rewrite what happened here during WWII.

Oh and it doesnt matter how long I've been here, but just to let you know it's a hell of a lot longer than you may think.

[caster51]

however if it was not correct from an evidence, what would you do?

[KirinMan]

however if it was not correct from an evidence, what would you do?
Caster this time I gave you proof and "live" testimony. So are you going to sit here and tell all those Okinawan people that they dont know what they are talking about?

Now I stand by it and let those here that read and understand Japanese make any comments to the contrary.

[caster51]

教科書検定問題をめぐってはおととい、抗議の県民集会 が開かれました。
　歴史の歪曲だと反発の声が高まっています
yes there are ppl like you.

however,a candidate that supported " it was order " lost in election

[Goldiegirl]

Written history is never completely truthful. It can't be. It is always biased, based on the writer's perspective. Such as posts that claim "savage" killings when talking of one nations part in a war, yet their nation has killed and it's termed unfortunate. You see, just adding or deleting, even the act of choosing a word shows the bias of a writer. That is human nature, right or wrong. Anyway, that's how I view written history......

[caster51]

Caster this time I gave you proof and "live" testimony. So are you going to sit here and tell all those Okinawan people that they dont know what they are talking about?

Of course they were cornered...
many soldier also were cornered to kill themselves.

i said again the evidence of sucide that was orderd by army was only based on Tokashiki island. that is Akamatsu's incident.
However, It was wrong completely.

okinawa ppl did not elect a governor that the sucide was orderd and forced in his opinion

[pipokun]

Official approval front and back comparison of “group suicide”/the Naha city assembly lobby Okinawa game “group suicide (forced group death)” the exhibition which thinks of screening of school textbooks 11th morning, started at the Naha city assembly lobby. You excerpt the original and correction place of the problem part centering on the problem where the Japanese military participation from the high school historical textbook which two 〇 〇 is used after eight in “the group suicide” of Okinawa game is corrected & is deleted, alongside textbook 14 volume before and after the official approval object seven correcting of in a row, you have displayed in the panel. 　Centering on the description of “group suicide” from the panel which compares correction front and back, the subject, “Japanese military” comes out entirely from description and e.g., “it can force' group suicide to the Japanese military and/or '” to “being cornered, 'group suicide' it has changed the person whom it does”, it understands clearly that it has fallen. As for the same exhibition in order to withdraw official approval opinion, the same city assembly which last month is approved on 15th sponsoring the opinion book plan which is sought. It has displayed to 15 day during June conventional session. 　With opening ceremony, as for high military officer optical Chair Hisashi “as the starting point where the citizen and the staff think of peace we would like to appeal that you think concerning Okinawa game strongly”, you said and called the attendance of the citizen.

Obeika, what google do you use?

http://translate.google.com/translate_t?langpair=ja|en
This is the google I used.

Furthermore “from many testimonies it makes clear that the fact that several hundred inhabitants commit suicide is fact,
Where is the fact in the article?
嘘はいけません。

[Mikawa Ossan]

Since not everyone can follow the Japanese in the evidence presented thus far...

There are something like 17 textbooks that are on display at Naha, comparing the same page before and after the revising. The example that is given is a change in wording from "(the people) were forced by the Japanese military" to commit suicide to "(the people) were cornered into" committing suicide.

There is indeed mention of hand grenades in the evidence presented, and no one is denying where they came from, but in the revised textbook it just isn't mentioned where they might have come from.

The video does show a demonstration against the proposed change to the textbook, with a man quoted as saying, "The military said, 'Don't become captives of the American army! If it looks like you will, kill yourself instead!' That was the Japanese military and the country's order. We must strongly oppose anyone who would try to twist history!" This man is described at "someone who experienced events" in the onscreen text.

Aside from the demonstrators in the news video, the articles themselves do not take a side. They matter of factly describe what is happening, from the exhibit of the textbooks to the mayor of Naha describing the change as "regrettable" to the demonstrations themselves.

[caster51]

if there were survivors and witness that were orderd and forced, they would be given annuity or pension for their family or relatives by law like akamatsu case.

How many civillian were given by that except akamatsu's case?

[Ewok85]

if there were survivors and witness that were orderd and forced, they would be given annuity or pension for their family or relatives by law like akamatsu case.
How many civillian were given by that except akamatsu's case?

It could be because they are dead, and dead people can't tell their side of the story? If the survivors have been saying for years that they were told to kill themselves by the Army, its logical and almost certain to assume that these peoples families, friends and neighbours committed suicide as a result of the coercion and orders given to them by the Army.

Just because they haven't been given fair compensation is not proof of a lack of force. That is like saying that someone who has been murder really only committed suicide because the proof is that noone was sent to jail for their murder. Reverse/circular logic.

[caster51]

that is why there is also no evidence that was orderd anf forced though obeika said there are many...

akamatsu shoulders the cross for them voluntary that was nothing to do with that because of their fair compensation. he was not there

its logical and almost certain to assume that these peoples families, friends and neighbours committed suicide as a result of the coercion and orders given to them by the Army.

and enemy has approached to kill.
and Who survived?
Naturally, the soldier,they has committed suicide.too

and Mr.Teruya who worked at Ryukyu-G invetigated all civilian Survivor for fair compensation in 50's whether it was ordered and forced or not

in saipan ,solidirs and 12,000civilians dived from Banzai Clíff and killed by shooting and bombing by american.
it was easy for them to imagine like that
http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/22336.html

even tokyo bombing, there were so many ppl who lost their kids or relatives killed themselves because of no hope to live

[Ewok85]

Why was there no hope to live? The American army wasn't there to rape and plunder like the second coming of Nanking, they were there to fight anyone who fought back and make an end to the aggression that the Japanese themselves had started.

[caster51]

Why was there no hope to live? The American army wasn't there to rape and plunder like the second coming of Nanking, they were there to fight anyone who fought back and make an end to the aggression that the Japanese themselves had started

off course Japanese army was not also there to rape...
Do you know which country's military forces was doing the severest
rule?

[Ewok85]

Which country upon invading another was the most severe to the people of said invaded country? Would depend on which country was invaded too I guess. I'm thinking you're going to tell me either way...

[KirinMan]

Caster you write "the soldier,they has committed suicide.too" are you attempting to justify the civilian suicides that occured.

You dont deny that they, the civilian suicides, happened just that they were "forced", correct?

Japanese people are fighting against this change, why is that Caster?

[KirinMan]

off course Japanese army was not also there to rape...
Do you know which country's military forces was doing the severest
rule?
If we are going to stay on topic here; the the answer is very easy from my point of view and in my opinion.

The Japanese Imperial Army, hands down. Brainwashing this entire island of people into believing, which was a dowright lie, that the American Military were canibal's and barbarian's, is a much more henious crime.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Brainwashing this entire island of people into believing, which was a dowright lie, that the American Military were canibal's and barbarian's, is a much more henious crime.

A lie is a lie is a lie, yes, but I have to ask this: Did the Japanese soldiers truly believe the Americans were hell-bent on pillaging the Okinawan populace?

The behavior of the Soviets in Sakhalin and Germany was horrific, and it is possible that the Japanese were under the impression that the Americans were going to do the same as the Ruskies.

In addition, I know I've linked it elsewhere, but take a look at War Without Mercy (http://http://www.amazon.com/War-Without-Mercy-Power-Pacific/dp/0394751728/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9668773-0669457?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181601811&sr=8-1) by John Dower. Both the Japanese and American propaganda focused on dehumanizing the enemy and portraying them as animalistic barbarians. I have no doubt plenty of people on both sides bought into the propaganda.

What I cannot accept is the Japanese soldiers forcing civilians at bayonet-point who didn't want to commit suicide and wanted to take their chances with the American occupiers, although they were a minority. Nevertheless, how much did the soldiers believe about the "American rapists"?

[Ewok85]

The behavior of the Soviets in Sakhalin and Germany was horrific, and it is possible that the Japanese were under the impression that the Americans were going to do the same as the Ruskies.

You're as bad as Caster - you have your timeline wrong. Sakhalin came long after the events we are talking about.

What I cannot accept is the Japanese soldiers forcing civilians at bayonet-point who didn't want to commit suicide and wanted to take their chances with the American occupiers, although they were a minority. Nevertheless, how much did the soldiers believe about the "American rapists"?

This is something I've been thinking about too. Technically soldiers cannot "order" civilians to do anything. In English anyway, moving up the scale they could advise it, suggest it, tell them to do it, force them to do it. But you need to remember that soldiers gave grenades to civilians for the purpose of committing suicide - which on its own is a huge breach of protocol, unless they were ordered to hand it over, in which case the Army has in essence ordered and sanctioned the action. Its like giving a gun with one bullet to a desperate and depressed individual - you know what is going to happen, you are equally responsible.

[diceke]

Why was there no hope to live? The American army wasn't there to rape and plunder like the second coming of Nanking, they were there to fight anyone who fought back and make an end to the aggression that the Japanese themselves had started.
That's naive. Do you really believe that American soldiers, in the heat battle, never raped and killed any enemy non-combatants, never killed enemy soldiers attempting to surrender? These atrocities seem modest compared with the indiscriminate bombings on major cities, but nevertheless, they were inevitable part of the battle, and they did happen, historians say. During the war, the sadistic acts of enemy soldiers were propagandized, but after the war, it's just that tight censorship controlled how much the media could report, and people do not talk about the incidents as much.

Reference: Saburo Ienaga: Senso Sekinin

[Ewok85]

That's naive. Do you really believe that American soldiers, in the heat battle, never raped and killed any enemy non-combatants, never killed enemy soldiers attempting to surrender? These atrocities seem modest compared with the indiscriminate bombings on major cities, but nevertheless, they were inevitable part of the battle, and they did happen, historians say. During the war, the sadistic acts of enemy soldiers were propagandized, but after the war, it's just that tight censorship controlled how much the media could report, and people do not talk about the incidents as much.

Reference: Saburo Ienaga: Senso Sekinin

I have little doubt that it might have happened, but rape, killing civilians and POW's were all offences that were court martial-able, while similar tales made the newspapers in Japan declaring the same soldiers as courageous heros.

[KirinMan]

That's naive. Do you really believe that American soldiers, in the heat battle, never raped and killed any enemy non-combatants

In the "heat" of battle I doubt any soldier from any military raped anyone. Never killed any non-combatants, well that is a well known fact that nearly every military in the history of the world is guilty of. That is one of the saddest things about war, is the non-combatant casualties.

That sad....once again....this thread is not about American soldiers and what they did or did not do, and I am 100% sure you know that. Tiring to say the least.

Technically soldiers cannot "order" civilians to do anything. In English anyway,

However here in Japan during WWII they could and did order civilians about quite regularly.

But you need to remember that soldiers gave grenades to civilians for the purpose of committing suicide - which on its own is a huge breach of protocol, unless they were ordered to hand it over, in which case the Army has in essence ordered and sanctioned the action. Its like giving a gun with one bullet to a desperate and depressed individual - you know what is going to happen, you are equally responsible.
As I wrote here somewhere previously civilians would have been shot if they had proffered the grenades on their own, they were supplied not only to be used in the case of their own suicide, but also to take as many of the "enemy" with them as they committed suicide.

That is part of the reason that the US Military was forced in defending itself from reguard actions against them into using flame throwers to burn out people left in caves, crevices, and in some cases graves as well.

The US had experienced numerous casualties from people running out of the caves screaming and launching themselves as human bombs into the assembled soldiers or Marines at the mouth or entrance area of the caves.

Did the Japanese soldiers truly believe the Americans were hell-bent on pillaging the Okinawan populace?

I doubt it, but at the time the Japanese soldiers and civilian population of Japan believed that they were not only fighting for their country but their Emperor as well, and to die in his service was honorable and just, vs having to live with the shame of defeat of capture. However Okinawan's not being totally ingrained with the same beliefs or doctrine, but believing the Japanese soldiers and the governments propaganda at the time, followed along at their orders.

[KirinMan]

Here is another article that people may find interesting to read.


Historians Battle Over Okinawa (http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2007/04/06/historians_battle_over_okinawa_ww2_mass_suicides/)

TOKYO (Reuters) - Sumie Oshiro was 25 when she and her friends tried to kill themselves to avoid capture by U.S. soldiers at the start of the bloody Battle of Okinawa.

"We were told that if women were taken prisoner we would be raped and that we should not allow ourselves to be captured," Oshiro said on last month's anniversary of the March 26, 1945, invasion of the Japanese islet of Zamami.

"Four of us tried to commit suicide with one hand grenade, but it did not go off," Ryukyu Shimpo, a local Okinawa newspaper, quoted Oshiro as saying at a gathering of now elderly survivors.

The fighting on Zamami, south of the main Okinawan island, was the prelude to three months of carnage that took some 200,000 lives, about half of them Okinawan men, women and children.

Many civilians, often entire families, committed suicide rather than surrender to Americans, by some accounts on the orders of fanatical Japanese soldiers.

"The army ordered them to commit suicide," said Yoshikazu Miyazato, 58, who plans to publish testimony from survivors on Zamami, where he says suicides accounted for 180 of the 404 civilians -- about half of the islet's population -- who died.

The accuracy of such accounts, however, has been questioned by conservative historians who argue the suicides were voluntary.

Late last month, the education ministry ordered publishers of high school textbooks to modify references to Japanese soldiers ordering civilians to kill themselves.

The textbook revisions echo other efforts by conservatives to revise descriptions of Japan's wartime actions, including Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's denial that the military or government hauled women away to serve as sex slaves for Japanese soldiers in Asia before and during World War Two.

Abe has sought to dampen overseas outrage over his remarks by repeating his backing for a 1993 apology to the "comfort women," as they are known in Japan, and offering his own brief apology.

"In every case, Abe's administration is saying there was no military involvement," Shoukichi Kina, an opposition lawmaker from Okinawa told Reuters in a phone interview.

"They are distorting history and it is unforgiveable."

"WORSE THAN DEVILS"

One reason cited for the revisions was a lawsuit by a former Japanese army officer and relatives of another charging the two men were was falsely described in works by publisher Iwanami Shoten as having ordered civilian suicides in Okinawa.

That prompted the publisher and Nobel Prize-winning author Kenzaburo Oe to send a letter of protest to the education ministry, criticizing the fact that only the views of the plaintiffs in the court case had been taken into account.

The Battle of Okinawa, which also took the lives of about 94,000 Japanese soldiers and more than 12,000 Americans, looms large in the collective memory of inhabitants of the island -- a separate kingdom until its monarch was exiled to Tokyo in 1879.

The battle, in which up to one-third of Okinawa's inhabitants died, has been described as a futile sacrifice ordered by Japan's military leaders to delay a U.S. invasion of the mainland.

Masahide Ota, a former governor of Okinawa who fought as a member of a "Blood and Iron Corps" of students mobilized to defend the island, says soldiers gave civilians two hand grenades -- "one to throw at the enemy and one to use on themselves."

Many historians and survivors blame military propaganda that sought to convince civilians they faced rape and torture if captured by Americans, as well as an education system that taught the virtue of dying for an emperor who was considered a living god.

"They were taught that Americans were fiends, worse than devils, and that if women were caught they would be raped and men would be killed," Miyazato said. "It was the same as ordering them to commit suicide. They were taught it was better to die.

Ota, a historian as well as a member of parliament, fears the lessons of Japan's wartime past are in danger of being lost.

"Education has the responsibility to convey history accurately to our children so that our country does not repeat the tragedy of the Pacific war," he said in a statement.

"Textbooks are one method of fulfilling that mission. I think that is being forgotten."

[caster51]

The army ordered them to commit suicide," said Yoshikazu Miyazato, 58, who plans to publish testimony from survivors on Zamami, where he says suicides accounted for 180 of the 404 civilians -- about half of the islet's population -- who died.
so , Were they given any fair compensation.
if not ,why?
in akamatusu case, fair compensation was given, why did not they do?
why now?

In Zamami case , a girl ,Niyazato mieko at that time did testimony

I said "When we wanted to commit suicide, I asked the principal"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
座間味村字座間味の宮里美恵子は『座間味の集団自決』 のなかで集団自決の心理を次のように述べています。
「阿佐道の方に出てみると、艦砲射撃が激しいので、私 達は伏せながら歩き続け、やっと忠魂碑前にたどりつき ました。しかし、そこには私の家族の他に、校長先生と その奥さん、それに別の一家族いるだけで他にだれも見 当たりません。死ににきたつもりのものが、人が少ない のと、まっ赤な火が近くを飛んで行くのとで不安を覚え 、死ぬのがこわくなってきました。
ほんとに不思議なものです。『死』そのものは何もこわ くないのです。けれども、自分たちだけ弾にあたって『 死ぬ』という事と、みんな一緒に自ら手を下して『死ぬ 』という事とは、言葉の上では同じ『死』を意味しても 、気持ちの上では全く別のものでした。その気持ちはう まく言えません。
　‥‥
私は校長先生に一緒に玉砕させてくれるようお願いしま した。すると校長先生は快く引きうけてくれ、身支度を 整えるよういいつけました。「天皇陛下バンザイ」をみ んなで唱え、「死ぬ気持ちを惜しまないでりっぱに死ん でいきましょう。」と言ってから、一人の年輩の女の先 生が、だれかに当たるだろうとめくらめっぽうに手りゅ う弾を投げつけました。その中の二コが一人の若い女の 先生と女の子にあたり、先生は即死で、女の子は重傷を 負いました。

[Dutch Baka]

RBC News Video (http://www.rbc-ryukyu.co.jp/wmv/0611-01.asx) in Japanese.



Taken from;
RBC News (http://www.rbc-ryukyu.co.jp/rnews.php?itemid=11007#more)

Any translation on this article?

[Mikawa Ossan]

Any translation on this article?
Hiya there! That's what the following basically is:
Since not everyone can follow the Japanese in the evidence presented thus far...

There are something like 17 textbooks that are on display at Naha, comparing the same page before and after the revising. The example that is given is a change in wording from "(the people) were forced by the Japanese military" to commit suicide to "(the people) were cornered into" committing suicide.

There is indeed mention of hand grenades in the evidence presented, and no one is denying where they came from, but in the revised textbook it just isn't mentioned where they might have come from.

The video does show a demonstration against the proposed change to the textbook, with a man quoted as saying, "The military said, 'Don't become captives of the American army! If it looks like you will, kill yourself instead!' That was the Japanese military and the country's order. We must strongly oppose anyone who would try to twist history!" This man is described at "someone who experienced events" in the onscreen text.

Aside from the demonstrators in the news video, the articles themselves do not take a side. They matter of factly describe what is happening, from the exhibit of the textbooks to the mayor of Naha describing the change as "regrettable" to the demonstrations themselves.

[caster51]

the schema of arter war is cruel Japanese army and " the order and forced" by army.
it is a propaganda of Nikkyoso,commie , Ooe and some foreigners who transformed to leftist intention when coming to Japan.


Man thinks that a cheap conviction in the peaceful age that won't be killed himself is a cause if an outside factor like the instruction of the army etc. doesn't exist.
A cheap diagram of compulsion by a martial instruction might be able to turn one's eyes away from the truth of the mass suicide in the Okinawa war rather.

I hope to know the truth in the Ooe and Iwanami's trial

[diceke]

this thread is not about American soldiers and what they did or did not do, and I am 100% sure you know that. Tiring to say the least.

Read the preceding posts.:okashii:

[Ewok85]

"They were taught that Americans were fiends, worse than devils, and that if women were caught they would be raped and men would be killed," Miyazato said. "It was the same as ordering them to commit suicide. They were taught it was better to die."

Whats the difference between being told by an Army Officer "Its better to die that be captured" and "You should die rather than be captured"?

so , Were they given any fair compensation.
if not ,why?

The why is obvious.

[caster51]

The why is obvious.

Yeah, even witness and survivors did not think it was ordered and forced.
it was natural....

[KirinMan]

Yeah, even witness and survivors did not think it was ordered and forced.
it was natural....

Caster there is nothing natural in war, particularly this issue of suicide. Caster go on believing what you want, I live here in Okinawa and I know these people pretty well, I am not arrogant to say I know everything, but I know quite a bit about the people and let me share something with you about them. I doubt that you will truly pay attention but here goes anyhow, they are a quiet and docile community by nature, abbhorant of violence and peaceful. Welcoming to all vistors and extrememly friendly and honest.

Caster the people giving their testimonies and leading the demonstrations against these changes are honest, believe what you want to believe, but this issue is far from over and is going to get bigger and bigger before too long.


Wait and watch.

Any translation on this article?
Hiya there! That's what the following basically is:

Thank you.

[pipokun]

...
Caster the people giving their testimonies and leading the demonstrations against these changes are honest, believe what you want to believe, but this issue is far from over and is going to get bigger and bigger before too long.
Wait and watch.
Thank you.


抗議署名２万８１７７人に／「集団自決」修正
　文部科学省の高校歴史教科書検定への抗議の輪が沖縄 から全国へ広がっている。「沖縄戦の歴史歪曲を許さな い！県民大会」実行委員会が県内外の関係団体に署名を 呼び掛けたところ、七日現在で二万八千百七十七人分が 集まった。実行委は五万人を目標に置いているが、「こ れを超えると期待している」と話している。
　そのうち約一万八千人分は全国の分。日教組が第一次 分として集約したものが大半で各県の教員が署名した。 実行委は「実際に教科書を手に取る先生の署名が多いの はありがたい。今、何が起きているのかを学校現場でも 知ってもらいたい」と語る。
http://www.okinawatimes.co.jp/day/200706081300_03.html
Collected 28177 signatures against the revise
18000 out of 28177 signatures comes from outside Okinawa. Japan Teacher Union mainly collected them.

I am not surprised if they would collect millions of it, for there are tons of voters supporting JCP, SDPJ, or whatever.
It must scare me if all people in Okinawa would be anti-US base activists.

Caster there is nothing natural in war
Right. Many died in the war, but the real tragedy in this matter is that people had to survive even after they killed their families after the war, therefore they needed the reason, that is, to claim it had been the military order.
Ask your wife to read the Sono's book. It tells her or you that the war was terrible even it was not the military order or even after the war.

[Ewok85]

Collected 28177 signatures against the revise
18000 out of 28177 signatures comes from outside Okinawa. Japan Teacher Union mainly collected them.

Whats you're point - are you saying if they aren't Okinawan, their opinions don't count? Ultimately it is teachers who have to use these books, and apparently at least 18,000 don't agree with it.

Many died in the war, but the real tragedy in this matter is that people had to survive even after they killed their families after the war, therefore they needed the reason, that is, to claim it had been the military order.
Ask your wife to read the Sono's book. It tells her or you that the war was terrible even it was not the military order or even after the war.

So you are claiming it is the fault of the survivors families that they died!? Whoa, would love to see you say that to the face of someone who lost family in the war.

[diceke]

I have little doubt that it might have happened, but rape, killing civilians and POW's were all offences that were court martial-able, while similar tales made the newspapers in Japan declaring the same soldiers as courageous heros.
Like which newspapers in Japan said that raping and killing civilians were courageous acts? :okashii:

These acts were penal offenses in the IJA back then, but then again violence is an inevitable part of war. (cf. military laws 海軍刑法／陸軍刑法. ) After all, the IJA was developed with foreign assistance, much of it was modeled after France and Germany.

[Ewok85]

This article is a good start - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contest_to_Kill_First_100_Chinese_with_Sword

[EmperorHirohito]

And Yes that article is a very good place to start. In wartime it is a case of Kill or be Killed, and most soldiers understand that, but to make it into a contest of killing as many as you can and to turn it into some sort of race, is in my view Wrong.

And I am afraid to say that I think the execution of the two Officers was justified. To me there is something very wrong in cutting off the head of a Chinese farmer just so that your tally of dead can exceed your opponents.

[diceke]

This article is a good start - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contest_to_Kill_First_100_Chinese_with_Sword
Like where? Where does it say in the paper that "raping and killing CIVILIANS were courageous"?

[Mikawa Ossan]

I found this part of the article to be especially interesting:Bob Tadashi Wakabayashi, who, in 2000, undertook one of the most comprehensive studies of the incident ever conducted, reached the conclusion that "the killing contest itself was a fabricated story", but served as a positive influence in Japanese culture, making the Japanese more aware of some of the wartime atrocities that had actually been conducted by the Imperial Japanese Army.

[caster51]

their posthumous writings and death poem were so sad..

their Jokes were propagated as promotion of fighting spirit by media

then they were excuted:(

Tsuyoshi Noda
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%87%8E%E7%94%B0%E6%AF%85_%28%E9%99%B8%E8%BB%8D% E8%BB%8D%E4%BA%BA%29

Toshiaki Mukai
http://www.geocities.jp/aspara_z/data_0024.html

http://www.history.gr.jp/~nanking/100.html

[caster51]

video of Tokashiki's survivors and teruya's exposure

japanese soldiers said " Civilians should not commit suicide . get away here to safe place"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P16oG_3X89o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S-aZzzt4Mw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WawZhQ1bv_w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3zwIZur6Wg

sorry Japanese language only

[pipokun]

Whats you're point - are you saying if they aren't Okinawan, their opinions don't count? Ultimately it is teachers who have to use these books, and apparently at least 18,000 don't agree with it.
So you are claiming it is the fault of the survivors families that they died!? Whoa, would love to see you say that to the face of someone who lost family in the war.

Ewok85, force your wife to read the book.
Your wife and you can find the deep-rooted reason.

[Ewok85]

Ewok85, force your wife to read the book.
Your wife and you can find the deep-rooted reason.

My wife hasn't got any interest in reading it, and I wouldn't force her anyway.

How about you just tell me the deep-rooted reason that so many Okinawan survivors of WWII say that Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them to kill themselves, and are in your opinion apparently lying?

[caster51]

Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them

who? how?................


off topic

here is Byakkotai Tribute
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1IIo4o3beo

[pipokun]

OK, but don't forget that it is unfair if you call Japanese women are stupid in the future, just because your wife is not interested in history or whatever.

It might have been happier if the Japanese/US solders or officers killed them, but in the alleged suicide case, the survivors could survive because they had not been killed by their family members or neighbors.

About the Union, it has been a long mystery for me that you can find tons of anti-Japan or US propaganda, but no anti-PRC, DPRK or commies propaganda even in the caricature section.
http://www.jtu-net.or.jp/colume/pic_news/series/series22.html
http://www.jtu-net.or.jp/colume/pic_news/series/series09.html

Anyways, I will not be surprised even if they or another union supporting JCP will collect hundreds of thoudsands of the petition.

[Ewok85]

My wife is an adult. This book is for children. She has already read a similar book, and we all know what was written in the old versions, as well as the new.

And the links you gave aren't propaganda, its caricatures and political comments.

[diceke]

My wife is an adult. This book is for children. She has already read a similar book, and we all know what was written in the old versions, as well as the new.
The book is for children? You mean this book?
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/3871/51hpwbcrdjlss500pp9.th.jpg (http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/3871/51hpwbcrdjlss500pp9.jpg)

[Ewok85]

Wow, its sad that you two have to get personal as well as give meaningless responses to get anywhere in this thread.

diceke - wrong book. I don't even know what the #%@! you are on about now. This topic is about one thing, and one thing alone - lets go back to the start.

TOKYO ― The government ordered changes Friday to seven history textbooks describing how the Japanese army forced civilians to commit mass suicide at the end of World War II, the country's latest effort to soften brutal accounts of its wartime conduct.
The high school textbooks...

It is about these high school textbooks, books for children who are in high school.

And pipokun, stay on topic will you.

I have a single and simple question which I've now asked twice. Why have so many Okinawan survivors of WWII said that Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them to kill themselves?

And bonus question would be: Do the opinions and first hand experiences of these people "not count" in your little argument? And finally, are you suggesting that these people are wrong, or even worse, lying?

[KirinMan]

I have a single and simple question which I've now asked twice. Why have so many Okinawan survivors of WWII said that Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them to kill themselves?

And bonus question would be: Do the opinions and first hand experiences of these people "not count" in your little argument? And finally, are you suggesting that these people are wrong, or even worse, lying?


Fair questions...I hope you get fair answers from them as well. I am also interested in their replies.

[caster51]

Why have so many Okinawan survivors of WWII said that Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them to kill themselves?

it is easy.
some ppl also think we were victims of Japanese army.
then we were burnt and killed . atomic bomds were dorpped because of cruel Japanese army like commies said.

even my city's nikkyoso says we were forced and orderd to fight for WW2 by army

[KirinMan]

it is easy.
some ppl also think we were victims of Japanese army.
then we were burnt and killed . ......even my city's nikkyoso says we were forced and orderd to fight for WW2

Thank for agreeing that the suicides committed during WWII were due to the orders of the Japanese Imperial Army and government.

Since you obviously agree my next question is why then are you for the textbooks being rewritten?

[caster51]

Thank for agreeing that the suicides committed during WWII were due to the orders of the Japanese Imperial Army and government.

NoPe i dont agree with you at all:blush:
Beause it is not the fact.

[KirinMan]

NoPe i dont agree with you at all:blush:
Beause it is not the fact.

Well then from now on you and I are going to have to agree to disagree because I know for a fact that it was according to the orders of the Japanese Military and Government at the time that people, civilians and soldiers, airmen, and sailor's alike commit suicide and die for their country and Emperor rather than surrender.

That Caster is a fact.

[caster51]

Well then from now on you and I are going to have to agree to disagree because I know for a fact that it was according to the orders of the Japanese Military and Government at the time that people, civilians and soldiers, airmen, and sailor's alike commit suicide and die for their country and Emperor rather than surrender.

However...
it was not orderd and foeced to commit suicide by Japanese Military and Government at the time.

even today, commit suicide by the order and forced is the shame.
we want to decide our last ourselves even though I choose sucide as a result.
it is human dignity. You have made their dignity dirty

[KirinMan]

However...
it was not orderd and foeced to commit suicide by Japanese Military and Government at the time.



Give me a break, you know darn well that it was ordered, what the heck do you call the Kamikaze pilots that wreaked havoc over the US ships during the Battle of Okinawa and other places? They knew damn well ahead of time that they were on a one way ticket to death.

How about the "banzai" attacks into well defended and fortified positions all over the Pacific.

What do you call the Japanese that pulled pins on hand grenades and held them to their chests, murders?

The "shame" they felt was due to defeat and not being able to fulfill their "duty" to country and the Emperor. Suicide was an acceptable and honorable way to die. You know that as well.

even today, commit suicide by the order and forced is the shame.

This doesnt make any sense at all, who today is going to "order" someone to commit suicide?

we want to decide our last ourselves even though I choose sucide as a result. it is human dignity

Are you trying to say that people who choose to commit suicide is a matter of human dignity?

I dont agree, suicide is a cop out, running away, fear of facing up to one's own mistakes, among a host of other things as well.

People who commit suicide to me are cowards.

I can also understand, whether I agree or not is another subject, but I understand the "why" behind the suicides during WWII and particularly here in Okinawa as well. To me they were doing what they thought was their duty, because of the shame and failure in being beaten by an enemy.

[caster51]

People who commit suicide to me are cowards.

i dnot think so at all.
it depends...

however , I dont choose to commit sucide by someone's direct ordering




I dont agree, suicide is a cop out, running away, fear of facing up to one's own mistakes, among a host of other things as well.

they selected it their digunity

[KirinMan]

i dnot think so at all.
it depends...
they selected it their digunity
Caster this is not "samurai" Japan, nor the Japan of WWII, the Emperor is no long viewed of as being a god.

Today suicide, even here, is a form of cowardice.

[caster51]

Caster this is not "samurai" Japan, nor the Japan of WWII, the Emperor is no long viewed of as being a god.
Today suicide, even here, is a form of cowardice.

Nop, more than 60% of committing sucide are reason of their hopeless health of old guys.
it is not said they are coward..

[KirinMan]

Nop, more than 60% of committing sucide are reason of their health of old guys.
it is not said they are coward..

Euthanasia or mercy killing is a different subject, technically speaking one could call it "suicide". I dont put them in the same category.

Caster who ordered the Kamikaze pilots to kill themselves in attacking the US warships during the battle of Okinawa and elsewhere?

Caster who or what made the Japanese soldiers believe that pulling the pins on hand grenades and committing suicide was an honorable way of dying, instead of surrendering?

[caster51]

Euthanasia or mercy killing is a different subject, technically speaking one could call it "suicide". I dont put them in the same category
it is the same ...
they were corner and death was approaching by enemy.

did you watched testimony of tokashiki survivor ?

were they coward?
I dont think so.
they were so brave.
that is why oota said it in his last teregram" okinawan had fought bravely

Sakhalin and himeturi girls were so coward?
i dont think so at all

in case of sakhlin, they did their best until last

[KirinMan]

were they coward?
I dont think so
OK I disagree, they had other options, they could have surrendered and lived.

Sure they may have had the shame of defeat on their minds for the rest of their lives, but at least they would be alive. Living takes more courage than dying Caster. Life is hard.
that is why oota said it in his last teregram" okinawan had fought bravely
I've read it, and been to where he made his last stand with his men and been in the caves where numerous men committed suicide by pulling pins on their hand grenades, the holes are still left in the walls of the cave.

Sobering to say the least, I didnt say they weren't brave or not courageous, just took the cowards exit.

[KirinMan]

it is the same ...
they were corner and death was approaching by enemy.


Caster you know here too that it is illogical to equate a situation in war with a health issue, it isnt the same.

Once again my reply to you...they could have surrendered. They had options.

[KirinMan]

Okinawa Slams History Text Rerwrite (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070623a1.html)

The following is taken from the above link, this was all over the news here in Okinawa this past weekend. Evidently every City and Town assembly in the prefecture has passed similar resolutions requesting the government to retract the proposed re-writes to the textbooks.

All the assembly resolutions were unanimous as well.



Saturday, June 23, 2007


Okinawa slams history text rewrite
Assembly tells state to retract order to downplay mass suicides

Compiled from Kyodo, AP

The Okinawa Prefectural Assembly demanded Friday that the central government retract its instruction to high school history textbook publishers to downplay the military's role in ordering mass civilian suicides during the Battle of Okinawa.


Protesters demand Friday in Naha that the government retract its instruction to revise history textbooks to downplay the military's role in ordering mass suicides in the prefecture during the war. KYODO PHOTO


The assembly issued the call in a unanimously adopted statement after 36 out of the 41 municipal assemblies in the prefecture adopted similar statements and civic groups collected 100,000 signatures opposing the government move.

In the statement, the assembly said, "It is an undeniable fact that mass suicides could not have occurred without the involvement of the Japanese military.

"We strongly call on the government to retract the instruction and to immediately restore the description in the textbooks so the truth of the Battle of Okinawa will be handed down correctly and a tragic war will never happen again."

Okinawa was the only inhabited part of Japan where ground fighting took place in the closing days of World War II. During the battle, a quarter of Okinawa's civilian population died. More than 200,000 Japanese and Americans died in the bloody battle.

Many survivors say Japanese soldiers, on the brink of defeat, told them to kill themselves and their loved ones. But some military-related people deny that mass suicides and murder-suicides were ordered.

In March, the Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology Ministry advised publishers of the textbooks to be used in the next school year to reword descriptions that the embattled Imperial Japanese Army forced civilians to kill themselves in the war so they would not be taken prisoner by the U.S. military.

Textbooks for Japanese schools must be screened and approved by a government-appointed expert panel, which can order corrections of perceived historical inaccuracies.

According to the results of the screening, one textbook initially stated that "the Japanese army gave hand grenades to residents, making them commit mass suicide and kill each other."

But after the screeners took issue with the description, saying it could result in misunderstanding, the textbook was revised to state, "Mass suicides and killings took place among the residents using hand grenades given to them by the Japanese army."

Other textbooks simply deleted the words "by the Japanese army."

Two assembly members were traveling to Tokyo to hand deliver the statement to the education ministry, Assemblyman Akira Nakasone said.

Accounts of forced group suicides and murder-suicides in Okinawa are backed up by historical research, and by testimonies