Rewriting History Again "Japan to Revise Books on WWII Suicides"

[KirinMan]

I first heard this on the news this past Friday evening. Once again the Japanese Government is attempting to rewrite it's history, this time in regards to it's own people. There are many here in Okinawa that are more than just a little "upset" at this.

Japan to Revise Books on WWII Suicides (http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Mar30/0,4670,JapanForcedSuicides,00.html)

TOKYO — The government ordered changes Friday to seven history textbooks describing how the Japanese army forced civilians to commit mass suicide at the end of World War II, the country's latest effort to soften brutal accounts of its wartime conduct.
The high school textbooks say the army _ faced with an impending U.S. invasion in 1945 _ handed out grenades to residents on the southern island of Okinawa and ordered them to kill themselves rather than surrender to the Americans.

The Education Ministry said there was no definitive evidence that the suicides were ordered by the army. The publishers were asked to modify the relevant passages and submit the changes for approval by a government-appointed panel.

"There are divergent views of whether or not the suicides were ordered by the army, and no proof to say either way. So it would be misleading to say the army was responsible," said Education Ministry official Yumiko Tomimori.
Since taking office in September, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has promoted national pride and sought to distance Japan from its post-World War II guilt. His conservative government has bolstered Japan's international military role and amended the constitution to require schools to teach patriotism.......


This time there is factual evidence that the Japanese Military personnel ordered the civilians to commit suicide. I have heard survivors of the war give lectures to Elementary, Junior High and High School students about this sad part of the Battle of Okinawa.

There have been movies made about this as well. Once again the government is sticking it to the people of Okinawa. Oh and if the Japanese soldiers didn't hand out the hand grenades how in the heck did the people get them in the first place? If a civilian was caught with them they would have been shot for pilfering military war material.

Also it's kind of hard to interview the dead Japanese military personnel who committed suicide themselves rather than be captured.

The battle in Okinawa raged from late March through June 1945, leaving more than 200,000 civilians and soldiers dead and speeding the collapse of Japan's defenses.

Accounts of forced group suicides on Okinawa have been backed up by historical research and testimony from victims' relatives. Historians say government propaganda led civilians to believe U.S. soldiers would commit atrocities, persuading them to kill themselves and their families to avoid capture.

But in recent years, some academics have questioned whether the suicides were forced, part of the wider push by conservatives to soften criticism of Japan's wartime conduct.


There is more in the article as well about other issues related to this recent spate of "work" by the current Japanese administration to soften it's own history.

[Elizabeth]

There is more in the article as well about other issues related to this recent spate of "work" by the current Japanese administration to soften it's own history.
Thanks for the post, Obeika ! I too was totally blown away by this fresh campaign of the Abe administration to whitewash inconvenient historical facts after the cost to its reputation Japan has paid for such past efforts.

For crying out loud, the stories of Okinawan forced suicides have been in textbooks since the 1950's. Is there any new evidence that casts doubt on those time honored accounts ? I don't think so. Some survivors have tried to seek compensation from the courts beginning in 2005. That's about the only thing that has changed except for the coming of a new government. :okashii:

It wasn't even clear from Japanese news accounts that these were suicides, although that would obviously be inferred by anyone with prior awareness of the situation. The term is 自決 which I took at first to mean "driven to self-determination." No mention of granades, number of fatalities or other such unpleasant details.

Hopefully unbelievably brazen moves like this this will make us all more vigilant observers of the Abe era and policies.

[KirinMan]

Thank you, it has been the topic of discussion the past few days among a number of "elderly" friends that I have, they are rather upset that the current administration is trying to belittle the horrific experiences that they had witnessed during WWII.

Okinawan people were not only induced to commit suicide but were also used as "human" shields by the Japanese military to protect themselves from attacks from the US Military.

Mothers had to smother their own babies to cover their crying, out of fear that the Japanese military shut in caves with them would kill them to keep them quiet out of fear of detection.

The Okinawan people had no other means of information other than what the Japanese military gave them, it is incredulous to think that they would have committed suicide on their own, first off it is not in the Okinawan people's nature. One has to understand the nature of the Okinawan people to understand this, to cut these ties by committing suicide is unthinkable. One must also understand the fear they had of not only the US military but also of the Japanese military as well.

Even though the prefecture was a part of Japan at the time there was not the "love" for the emperor in comparison to people that came here from "mainland" Japan. Also the familial connections that are so important here in Okinawa would not have even made them think to commit suicide on their own.

Lastly I find in rather interesting that "members" that post here defending the Japanese military for their actions in regards to "other" issues related to WWII don't find find the "time" to make comments in support of the current government actions regarding this issue.

Their silence is deafening!

[pipokun]

http://www.sankei.co.jp/kyouiku/gakko/070331/gkk070331001.htm
沖縄戦集団自決「軍命令」を修正　高校教科書検定

Do I have to translate this for you?

[KirinMan]

http://www.sankei.co.jp/kyouiku/gakko/070331/gkk070331001.htm
沖縄戦集団自決「軍命令」を修正　高校教科書検定
Do I have to translate this for you?

Before I answer this question, I am sorry but have a question for you, do you believe that the Okinawan people that committed suicide following the orders of the Japanese military at the time, through the propaganda of the Japanese military?

Or;

Do you think, in your opinion of course, that they did so of their own accord, without being forced?

It is just a link, and it says nothing about how you feel or what your opinion is about the matter.

[pipokun]

I don't think the court will judge anything about history, but the case against Oe is ongoing.

Their silence is deafening!
It is interesting that your logic is similar to the young Korean woman.
This is from the Seiron Extra. 02
Easy appology and unreasonable accusation, twisted codes blocking Japan-Korea friendship
Gim Wanseop, Korean writer and critic
O Seonhwa, Korean critic and professer of Takushoku University. (When Gim chatted with a young Korean woman)
She said my book was wrong. She means, if the Korean government teaches distorted anti-Japanese history to South Koreans and if the history we learned is a lie. Why does Japan stay calm?
If my opinion is true, she does not understand the slicence of Japan. She (Japan) is supposed to strong protest to our Korean govenment.
But no protest from Japan, it means that our historical claims are true.

You know much more that the loud anti-US base activists in Okinawa is not necessarily okinawa people, right?

[Elizabeth]

http://www.sankei.co.jp/kyouiku/gakko/070331/gkk070331001.htm
沖縄戦集団自決「軍命令」を修正　高校教科書検定
Do I have to translate this for you?
Have these revisionist testimonies been picked up by the normal press ? Sorry, but I don't believe anything only found in Sankei Shinbun. :okashii:

[KirinMan]

You know much more that the loud anti-US base activists in Okinawa is not necessarily okinawa people, right?

Oh yes, as you may know as well the people that stir up many of the problems regarding the bases here are not from here either.

Do I have to translate this for you?
Yesterday 21:17


I understood parts and the parts I didnt understand I'll get my wife to help out with, thanks for the offer though.

[pipokun]

Have these revisionist testimonies been picked up by the normal press ? Sorry, but I don't believe anything only found in Sankei Shinbun. :okashii:
What do you mean by the normal press?
For a non-American, I find Fox and NYT still play baseball at a ball park.

[caster51]

Akamatsu, He voluntarily shouldered the cross for them.
He endured well for the disgrace because of their survivor's pension or annuity by war.

If it was an Order , money was paid.

[highlight]

My god how is this even justified what possible evidence could deny the accounts of people there at the time at least people are aware of it and don't just let it happen.

[Ewok85]

Once again the government is sticking it to the people of Okinawa.


And also to every soldier and civilian who killed themselves who will now be recognized as having committed suicide dishonourably, instead of dying in the line of duty.

[KirinMan]

And also to every soldier and civilian who killed themselves who will now be recognized as having committed suicide dishonourably, instead of dying in the line of duty.

I am willing to bet that the govenment will find some way to gloss over this as well.

[caster51]

It happened in Tokashiki island,Okinawa in 1945
many civilian were educated americans were Devil.
because native american and Hawaian were conqured like Devill in the history.
it was natural for soldiers becuase of Bshido.
However ,civilians were not educated like that
some witness were appered last year. His name was Teruya-san.
the story is oppsitely . teruya-san said " soldiers told us to run away here ,then we are shield for you. however all soldiers was killed.
and we decided to suicide ......
after war, teruya-san visited Akamatsu-san(captain).
they committed suicide themselves. however , the suicide of civilian was not paid pension to family . than akamatu captain understood I forced them to kill themselves.
so pensions are paid to their family because they were killed in the WAR.
they said "Akamatsu is devil" in Japan
Devil of Akamatsu's stories were written in many books and School Text book that is an evidence of forced sucide...
However, recentry He was not able to endure it for Akamatsu's honor.
Akamatsu, He voluntarily shouldered the cross for them.
He endured well for the disgrace because of their survivor's pension or annuity by war.
He said "I decided to tell a truth. I demand him It is what he did a order for pension."
it is the other sad story
http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/22336.html
the young women comitted sucide.
However, this history was erased because they were not forced
http://fromto.cc/hosokawa/diary/2001/20010901-wakkanai2/d0901105312m.jpg

their good-by was aired in japan
they never give up their job until last

[Ewok85]

I am willing to bet that the govenment will find some way to gloss over this as well.

You can bet the families and relatives won't.

(At least in Australia and America where the memory and 'rights' of veterans is held very highly, such a thing as this would be political suicide)

[KirinMan]

You can bet the families and relatives won't.
(At least in Australia and America where the memory and 'rights' of veterans is held very highly, such a thing as this would be political suicide)
No the memories of all the dead, from all sides, are remembered here.Okinawa Prefectural Peace Memorial Museum (http://www.peace-museum.pref.okinawa.jp/index.html)

However and it is unfortunate that large numbers of Okinawan civilians were killed as a result of this war.

Included among over 100,000 cilvilians killed were countless numbers that committed suicide, mostly because they were educated to believe that suicide was the honorable way out and to die for the Emperor and country was preferable to being captured by the American's. Who were thought to be barbarians.

http://www.kodawariyasan.com/1club_html/okinawa/okinawa_image/m_oki17.JPG
All of the dead have their names engraved into the black granite and are memorialized here. There are over 200,000 names remembered here.

[caster51]

Included among over 100,000 cilvilians killed were countless numbers that committed suicide, mostly because they were educated to believe that suicide was the honorable way out and to die for the Emperor and country was preferable to being captured by the American's. Who were thought to be barbarians.
bombing to civilian discriminately, shoting and ..in front of them.
and in Saipan many cvilian were killed.
and you are fogetting" WHY?"
who know it as result.
they thought it was better than raping by american that was educated like Russain did at that time.
it is the other sad story
http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/22336.html
the young women comitted sucide.
However, this history was erased because they were not forced
This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 576x432 and weighs 43KB.
their good-by was aired in japan
they never give up their job until last
they were erased....
most japanese does not know it .why?
and american was educated like that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBxYy9rOVEk

EVEN at that time , no Japanese soldier wanted civilians to comitted sucide
who hope that?

[KirinMan]

and you are fogetting" WHY?"

Caster no I am not forgetting why and dont you forget it.

[caster51]

Caster no I am not forgetting why and dont you forget it.

NO,EVEN at that time , no Japanese soldier wanted civilians to comitted sucide
so was not Jpanese gerverment

[KirinMan]

NO,EVEN at that time , no Japanese soldier wanted civilians to comitted sucide
so was not Jpanese gerverment

Caster I think that before this gets out of hand with you trying to tell everyone that the Japanese military wasnt responsible for the suicides here in Okinawa I think you need to come here to Okinawa and do two things, go through the Memorial Museum and talk to the survivors.

You just might be surprised at what you learn about what happened here.

[Arch]

Thats pretty sickening even for outsiders let alone the residents of Okinawa. Ignorance is truly bliss, but how can someone really put themselves up to deny the facts in Okinawa.

I' heard countless accounts from people of Okinawa where they was ordered to kill family members with stones as surrendering is the most shamefull thing to do.

[caster51]

I think you need to come here to Okinawa and do two things, go through the Memorial Museum and talk to the survivors.
it is as same as Hiroshima case..
and saipan, Sakhalin..Mansuria
it is not only okinawan,
however
"That is how the citizens of Okinawa fought," wrote Rear Adm. Minoru Ota of the Imperial Japanese Navy in his final telegram to Tokyo before his suicide. "(I hope they) are granted special consideration in the future."
At the closing stages of World War II, Okinawa become Japan's only battlefield and tragically lost almost one out of three of the 600,000 inhabitants it had at the time. During the final stage of the Okinawa battle, Vice-Admiral Minoru Ota, naval field commander, sent a telegram expressing his admiration for the valor of the Okinawans' resistance and "sincerely petitioning that special consideration be given to the Okinawans in the future." The fine words are very famous in conveying the miserable state of Okinawa at that time and Okinawans' loyalty to Japan.
Whether Japan later showed the "special consideration" recommended by this thoughtful officer is highly dubious. In fact, it is rather easier to argue that the opposite was the case.
After the war, Okinawa was placed under US control and compelled to surrender its prime areas to US military bases. Even after Okinawa was returned to Japan in 1972 there was no change in the reality that Okinawa has to bear the main burden of the US military bases in Japan. Today, compared to the Japanese mainland, US military bases are concentrated 200 times more heavily in terms of land area in Okinawa and 300 times more heavily in terms of population. Far from receiving "special consideration," under the US-Japan security system Okinawa has had to bear a "special burden."
But conversely, it cannot be said that the Japanese government has done nothing for Okinawa. Since its return to Japan in 1972 the government has invested a large amount in the rehabilitation of Okinawa. Over the 24 years since the return, this has exceeded \5 trillion. However, Okinawa has still not found the key to independent development, and the income of its citizens remains the lowest in Japan.
However, the greatest cause of Okinawan distrust of the mainland is not money but the mainland's attitude toward it. In other words, the Okinawans doubt the commitment of the mainlanders to understanding the realities they live under, including their special historical burden and their special responsibility in Japan's security policy.
How do the mainlanders understand the contortions of history and the present state of Okinawa? How can we build common trust with Okinawans as fellow Japanese citizens? These questions are not only important background to our tasks, but form part of the tasks themselves.

MInoru ota
there is his final telegram
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A7%E7%94%B0%E5%AE%9F


I think Japanese Gerverment should do that okinawan want to do
so, in this case , I dont care this issue(rewriting...) because Okinawan is also Japanese.
I want them a honor
that is ,they were not forced.
they fought bravery
I dont want them to be like korean's mind.
USA should leave there

[caster51]

Thats pretty sickening even for outsiders let alone the residents of Okinawa. Ignorance is truly bliss, but how can someone really put themselves up to deny the facts in Okinawa.

what is the Fact?....

I' heard countless accounts from people of Okinawa where they was ordered to kill family members with stones as surrendering is the most shamefull thing to do.

?? is it a propaganda of chinese
if so ,they would not want to return to Japan again in 1972

[KirinMan]

I think Japanese Gerverment should do that okinawan want to do
so, in this case , I dont care this issue(rewriting...) because Okinawan is also Japanese.

That's very noble of you because on one hand you say that it should be left of to the Okinawan's and yet on the other hand you write.....

that is ,they were not forced.

Which btw is a crock of guano, tell that to my 80 yr old father in law who as a young teenager was forced to go to Manchuria and ended up in a Russian POW camp. Tell that to the countless numbers of people that were shot because they were talking in the local dialect, and the Japanese soldiers thought they were spies.

Want more.......take the scales from your eyes Caster.

I want them a honor
Then quit working so hard at spoiling their memories and put the blame where it belongs in this case, on the Japanese Imperial Army and Government of the time.

Give the honor back to the people who committed suicide on their orders, let them rest in peace, and let their families have peace in knowing that at the time, however wrong the information was, they felt they were making the best choice for themselves and their families.

Let history stand as it is, A reminder to all of the things governments and people will do to control the destiny of those around them. Let it be a strong reminder that peace is desired and war serves no purpose.

The Japan of today is NOTHING compared to the Japan of WWII, there should be no stigma directed towards the country for what its predecessors are guilty of. However if the government keeps on insisting on it's perceived need to rewrite it's wrongs it is easy to understand why neighboring countries and it's own people distrust it. Which is sad and dishonors all Japanese people that died fighting in the war. They died feeling that their cause was just and right. This dishonors them too.


Question for you Caster, try to image the situation, 1945 you an Okinawan, the US Military is overtaking you and your family...what are you going to do, kill them and then kill yourself?

Somehow I cant see you doing it, then again neither could I. But remember people dont take their own lives so easily, it takes thought and there must be no small amount of fear involved.
Killing your family to protect them? Unthinkable to me. If it wasnt for the propaganda of the Japanese Government and Japanese Military at the time it wouldn't have happened and that Caster is a FACT.


?? is it a propaganda of chinese
if so ,they would not want to return to Japan again in 1972
Caster you are walking a very fine line here, this is just too incredulous to comment on.
This is a joke, but I'm not laughing and do you know why? .....Please try and figure it out.

[caster51]

here is a testimony...
so, is this what japanese solidiers order and force to sucide?
If it means it is an Order and forced, it would be so.....
I can say it is a japanese tradition of war from ancient?
there is also sad story of Himeyuri girls...
they also were ordered by tradition? or Who?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uFt85WvesI&mode=related&search=
Since the enemy attack began, our Army and Navy has been fighting defensive battles and have not been able to tend to the people of the Prefecture. Consequently, due to our negligence, these innocent people have lost their homes and property to enemy assault. Every man has been conscribed to partake in the defense, while women, children and elders are forced into hiding in the small underground shelters which are not tactically important or are exposed to shelling, air raids or the harsh elements of nature. Moreover, girls have devoted themselves to running and cooking for the soldiers and have gone as far as to volunteer in carrying ammunition, or joining in attacking the enemy......[51]
The fact that a Japanese officer would admit negligence makes this passage especially important. Also significant is his comment that the men had been conscripted. This is not to say, as Ota points out, that some Okinawans were willing participants. Like all civilians who had been fed wartime propaganda, the Okinawans had unwarranted fears that accounted for their initial resistance and the large number of suicides. Many Okinawans made it clear that they felt they were fighting for their lives against the barbarous Americans, who would rape the women and eat the children. Once the civilians discovered the Allied troops did not intend to harm them, they surrendered and again became extremely docile. The Naval military detachment established to support the local population commented on their passivity, attributing it to 'great shock and fright,' but added that from that point on they were docile and cooperative.[52] Rear Admiral Ota also described the particularly horrific move south for the Okinawans: This leaves the village people vulnerable to enemy attacks where they will surely be killed in desperation. Some parents have asked the military to protect their daughters against rape by the enemy, prepared that they may never see them again. Nurses, with wounded soldiers, wander the battlefield aimlessly because the medical team had moved and left them behind. The military has changed its operation, ordering people to move to far residential areas, however, those without means of transportation trudge along on foot in the dark and rain, all the while looking for food to stay alive.[53] http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/okinawa/default.aspx

I think most case was like her testimony and case of Sakhalin
.

This time there is factual evidence that the Japanese Military personnel ordered the civilians to commit suicide
this one was an evidence of akamatsu case that was propagated as an order
then this propaganda had gone because of Teruya testimony
How were 80,000 civilians killed?
most of them were killed by bombing.
anyway civilians were not soldiers

[diceke]

What's the hidden agenda of the thread? Obeika's posts always confuse me.:?

[KirinMan]

Caster I dont get your point.....
Do you want to see the textbooks revised to say that the Japanese military was not responsible? Or not?

What's the hidden agenda of the thread? Obeika's posts always confuse me.

I think you are reading too much into something and don't take it at face value. I also think that the majority of "native" English speakers here would readily understand the point of this thread, if you have a question or are confused about something here please feel free to add it here and I would gladly explain it.:wave:

[KirinMan]

How were 80,000 civilians killed?

Caster over 100,000 civilians were killed here in Okinawa roughly 1/3 of the civilian population of the island at that time.

[diceke]

I think you are reading too much into something and don't take it at face value. I also think that the majority of "native" English speakers here would readily understand the point of this thread, if you have a question or are confused about something here please feel free to add it here and I would gladly explain it.:wave:

I just think it's funny you have a strange obsession with the evil Japanese military, and what they did to whom.:blush:

On the other hand, you say you don't want to discuss "how many people were killed by who or whom".:?

http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=467715&postcount=6

Anyway, what does the "majority of native speakers" have anything to do with it? :okashii:

[KirinMan]

I just think it's funny you have a strange obsession with the evil Japanese military, and what they did to whom.:blush:
Your words not mine, and to clarify something here I never refered to the Japanese military as being evil. However I am saying that the government and military at the time were responsible for many civilian deaths that occured here in Okinawa. The suicides also are a direct result of the propaganda used at that time. That is also a fact.

On the other hand, you say you don't want to discuss "how many people were killed by who or whom".:?


What difference does it make? There is no need to discuss the who killed whom. Both sides killed civilians, that isnt the point of this thread. The point is the Japanese Government NOW wanting to rewrite the history of what actually occured here in Okinawa and it wasnt the figment of the Okinawan peoples imagination either.

[Mars Man]

Interesting. The article in the OP is extremely similar to one which I had seen in The Daily Yomiuri a little more than a month ago, along with a couple of reports, or quotes from survivors.

Firstly I think it's stupid to work in the direction of editing out the possibilities of certain events/circumstances in history simply due what is argued as a lack of, or 'weak link' in evidence. The present climate of the political scene in Japan over the last several decades can well be said to evidence a growth in this tendency among some. The present Abe administration may be bending to that?

Regarding the acts and circumstances in history that make up the conflict in that era--especially here we are talking about the fighting over Okinawa--I am of the impression that much had been subtile, yet nevertheless fitting into a pattern, which, as pointed out above somewhere, was kind of 'Japanese-ish.' Without applying any value judgement on that aspect of Japanese thought itself, I would still say that it was a great shame that the society of that era had so little room for self-projection.

And now, for whatever it may be worth, I'd like to offer some moderating advice for the purpose of attempting to reduce stress build-up !

I have tried to read over everything as well as I could; have tried to understand everyone's points made, opinions expressed. And would like to offer the following:

Obeika's posts have been clear enough, I reason. There is no room for seeing the purpose of the thread for being anything more than just what the OP brings out.

There is no real reason to challenge any data or items which have been offered as evidence towards what had actually happened in Okinawa at that time here on this thread, on this thread, without first doing some fair and indepth research--just talking off the top of the head, or referring to sites that relate to similar or whatever things will not do. One needs to go to the libraries and do some real research. One needs to go to Okinawa and do some real research. One needs to investigate and cross-examine all the pertinent military historical records. One needs to spend a hand-full of years doing that first, then come back here and report it.

What has been said here, should also be allowed to just let stand as it is. I really don't feel, nor reason (at the moment, at least) that there is any need to challenge anything, but simply to state our understanding--of course, regarding offering evidences beyond what has come up so far, see above paragraph.

Now...let's do what we may to not let any bleeding come from other threads about similar matters, onto this one. Let's not let this thread become another meaningless battleground. Let's please just let this go for those who have not yet responded to this thread to do so, with as little aggressive counter-pointing as possible...PLEASE !!

[diceke]

What difference does it make? There is no need to discuss the who killed whom. Both sides killed civilians, that isnt the point of this thread. The point is the Japanese Government NOW wanting to rewrite the history of what actually occured here in Okinawa and it wasnt the figment of the Okinawan peoples imagination either.What difference does it make? Maybe the US has nothing to rewrite, because it hasn't faced up to the issues of war guilt in the first place.

How a nation treats its history isn't easy for any country, people do not agree on how to remember past events in history, but I'm glad to know that Japan openly debates historiography and the issues of war guilt/innocence, and historical interpretations can be constantly challenged, for the better or worse.
:cool:

[KirinMan]

How a nation treats its history isn't easy for any country, people do not agree on how to remember past events in history, but I'm glad to know that Japan openly debates historiography and the issues of war guilt/innocence, and historical interpretations can be constantly challenged, for the better or worse.:cool:

I can agree with a portion of this statement, however I don't see this as an open debate here in Japan. It is a decision made by the government and then implemented without open "public" discussion.

Not everyone here has been given their say and the feelings and factual historical events of what happened here in Okinawa and to it's people have been disregarded and ignored which is a shame.

[caster51]

however I don't see this as an open debate here in Japan. It is a decision made by the government and then implemented without open "public" discussion.

Hah?
we are debating it for 60 years
Now Akamatsu case is on trial.
his family accused kenzabro Oue and Iwanami pabulisher.

Ayako Sono, she wrote this inceident was a Myth in 1992
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/4569564763
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayako_Sono

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沖縄戦史の「神話的悪人」として記録される赤松大尉。太平洋戦争末期、彼は渡嘉敷島の村民から食糧を強制的 に徴発し、さらに三百数十名の住民に集団自決を命じた、とされる。果たしてそうした事実は本当に存在したの か?極限的状況に立たされた「人間」とは一体何なのか?―本書では、膨大な資料と現地踏査、そして真実をあ くまでも理性的に追究しようとする著者の真摯な思いが、惨劇の核心を白日の下にさらしていく。迫真の長編ノ ンフィクション。

[caster51]

Teruya 昇雄
he worked for Depertment of relief affairs at former Ryukyu gervenment in
50's
he investigated all ,hearing from all survivors in island...because of pension,condolence money ,etc by law of Victim's support .....

http://josaito.cool.ne.jp/togashiki/jiketsu.html

[KirinMan]

Caster have you ever been to the Peace Memorial Park in Okinawa? Have you seem the museum there, seen the pictures or read the stories that the surviors have shared?

Have you ever attended a "Peace Studies" or Heiwa Gakkshu that nearly every Okinawan child in the past 20 years or so has attended?

Have you ever been to Himeyuri no to? Or listened to a lecture by people who survived the horrors of the battle of Okinawa?

Even to this day children throughout Okinawa in ES's study and learn about these events and more.

The point is that this time no matter what the government says to the rest of Japan, the people here in Okinawa will never forget the facts of what actually happened here.

Please don't ever underestimate them, the Okinawan people, because they don't stand up and fight or openly debate issues such as this. The culture here is non-confrontational, but that doesn't make them weak or lessen their intelligence nor the length of their memories.

The memories of the people that died, from all sides in the conflict will forever be memorialized and remembered.

I pray for the memories of the dead every year, from all sides, and it is something I pray that the world never forgets, no matter what the "government" here tries to do to change history.

Whether YOU choose to accept or believe it is another story altogether.

Gentlemen please remember the point of this thread is for people to remember that people died here because of the propaganda and beliefs of the time in question, not because of our 20/20 vision of today. It is a shame to me personally that the memories of many very good and decent people could be tarnished because the current Japanese administration wants to change the facts about what happened then.

It is also known that many Japanese soldiers committed suicide here in Okinawa as well, including the Commanding General Ushijima. They committed suicide because of their beliefs, sad but true, and to them honorable.

However today society here doesnt view suicide in the same view as it once did. We all are using 21st Century thinking to look back at an event(s) that the overwhelming majority of us have absolutely no idea about, other than what we have heard through word of mouth or through textbooks.

In my opinion there is no reason for the current administration to need to open these old wounds and cause more pain and dispair for the families and relatives of those that died here during the war.

What purpose does this serve? Particularly for the local Okinawan people, I would appreciate someone here trying to explain that, thank you.

[pipokun]

no matter what the "government" here tries to do to change history.
At least, I am fully aware that people agitating "Japan chage histoy" also show another propaganda.

[caster51]

Okinawan's mass sucide is surely tragedy.
there was no hope to win.
Yamato was also sent to okinawa for that.
and that fight was honourable death of readiness...
we never do to forget that okinawa was place of ugly WAR.
we never forget to feel sorry to Okinawan.

However." order and forced to sucide" is a different problem.

The Democratic Party, Mr, Kan's speech for election about " propagada like Obeika said" was not accepted by okinawan

[KirinMan]

However." order and forced to sucide" is a different problem.

I disagree with you that its not a different problem, it is one and the same and like I wrote in my previous reply it is YOUR choice to accept and believe that it happened or not.

Caster I hope you realize that it really is difficult at times to attempt to carry on a conversation with you.

[caster51]

No its not a different problem, it is one and the same and like I wrote in my previous reply it is YOUR choice to accept and believe that it happened or not.
Caster I hope you realize that it really is difficult at times to attempt to carry on a conversation with you.
anyway okinawan did not accept themselves that you said .that is, order and forced.
you know that.?

it is YOUR choice to accept and believe that it happened or not

it is not religion, either.
if there is an obvious evidence , I would accept it

that is why I am always asking " are you chinese or korean"

so Beika means uncivilized?

[diceke]

so Beika means uncivilized?
I'm not so sure, but does Obeika mean double-talk?:souka:

[KirinMan]

In my opinion no one "wins" here if the government chooses to rewrite the history of what happened during the Battle of Okinawa.

The dead are dead, and nothing we can say will change that. That I am sure we all can agree upon. The memories of the dead remain alive with us that are living and in the memorials and books that have been erected or written in the hope that nothing like this ever occurs again.

The people that committed suicide Japanese and Okinawan's alike "believed" in what they were doing as "right".

It is hard for me to believe, from living here amongst the Okinawan people for as long as I have to believe anything other than they, the one's that choose suicide for themselves and their families in some cases, acted upon the information, education, and instructions of the leadership or government at that time.

For those that dont know it Okinawa does not have the same history as "mainland" Japan, even though it was influenced by the "mainland" for many years in it's history it didnt become an "official" part of Japan until the mid 1870's which is only about 70 years previous to the start of WWII. We live in a day and age where information flows through our fingers like water, but image if you can back then. The people only had access to information from what the government gave them, their education was limited to that and that alone. Nearly everything about their culture of literally thousands of years was outlawed and they had no choice. It was accept it or die. That was then this is now.

Let's not use the passage of time to assuage the feelings of guilt. What other reason could there be for the motivation to change what is written history now?

I say let's all of us let the dead rest in peace and let them live in our memories as honorable people, doing what they thought was just and right.

[GodEmperorLeto]

I'm going to preamble my following statements with this opening thought:

The Pacific War was a tragedy of epic proportions. Every war is tragic, but the Pacific War especially so. Secondly, war is war. I am an historian and a fan of military studies. I've studied wars and battles from Qadesh to modern Iraq and Afghanistan, and read everything from Sun Tzu to von Clausewitz to Vegetius. Like John Keegan said in his book The Face of Battle, "I have never been in a battle, nor have I been near one." None of us can imagine the psychological trauma of the phalanx clash, the cavalry charge into a pike hedge, or the bombardment of artillery shells into a trench, unless we've actually lived through it. And therefore, none of us has a lot of ground to go laying blame on people. There will be civilian casualties in war, and there will be collateral damage. And so long as there are humans, there will be war. This is a sad truth, and there's no point in debating it.

With that said...

The dead are dead, and nothing we can say will change that. That I am sure we all can agree upon. The memories of the dead remain alive with us that are living and in the memorials and books that have been erected or written in the hope that nothing like this ever occurs again.
Which is why revisionist history is so darn heinous and dastardly.

The people that committed suicide Japanese and Okinawan's alike "believed" in what they were doing as "right".
I don't agree with this totally. Plenty of women and children were forced over cliffs at bayonet point, from what I've heard. Then again, I may be wrong.

Let's not use the passage of time to assuage the feelings of guilt. What other reason could there be for the motivation to change what is written history now?
I agree with point two but disagree with point one.

Why? The vast bulk of the Japanese of today didn't fight World War II. They didn't commit any atrocities or war crimes. They are not guilty at all.

Nevertheless, the deliberate suppression of history in order to "save face" and support nationalistic political agendas is unforgivable, plain and simple. Caster is a primary example of this sort of miseducation, as the deeds (or misdeeds) of his ancestors have a direct impact on his perception and feelings of national (and self-)worth. Thus, in order to avoid feeling blame or perceiving oneself as wrong, he has bought into a lot of revisionist history (i.e. "there was no Nanking Massacre" and other historical falsehoods).

I say let's all of us let the dead rest in peace and let them live in our memories as honorable people, doing what they thought was just and right.
I think that's playing too much on the fence. Just because Custer thought slaughtering Lakota was just and right doesn't make him any less of a sadistic gloryhound that butchered hundreds (if not thousands) of noncombatants before he met his just end at Little Big Horn. We need to see the past as it was, objectively, because if we don't, we can't learn from it. Honor those who deserve to be honored, and remember those who were evil, criminal, and tyrrannical as what they truly were.

Those who committed suicide shouldn't be honored, in my opinion, but rather mourned. They died because of a lie. The Americans were coming not with rape and plunder in mind, but Hershey bars. My great-uncle's friend went Section-8 when he saw the people who committed suicide, incapable of fighting because of the bodies of women and children he saw. We may have dropped incendiary bombs on entire cities, but the vast bulk of enlisted men did not intend to despoil the Okinawan populace.

Honoring their memory rather than mourning their unfortunate deaths is backwards because it lends creedence to the entire situation. It legitimizes it. I don't honor the people who died at the World Trade Center, they didn't die for anything special, they died because someone hated both them and the U.S. They deserve to be mourned, but not honored. These are two very different things.

[caster51]

Mass Suicides in Japan During World War 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipicszv99Bc

[pipokun]

In my opinion no one "wins" here if the government chooses to rewrite the history of what happened during the Battle of Okinawa.

The dead are dead, and nothing we can say will change that. That I am sure we all can agree upon. The memories of the dead remain alive with us that are living and in the memorials and books that have been erected or written in the hope that nothing like this ever occurs again.

Again, you're playing your emotional game here...
Nobody is discussing the Battle of Okinawa in general...

Ayako Sono, she wrote this inceident was a Myth in 1992
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/4569564763
Read the book.

[KirinMan]

Again, you're playing your emotional game here...
Nobody is discussing the Battle of Okinawa in general...
Read the book.

Did you happen to read the OP and who started it in the first place?:-)

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

I'm going to preamble my following statements with this opening thought:
The Pacific War was a tragedy of epic proportions. Every war is tragic, but the Pacific War especially so. Secondly, war is war. I am an historian and a fan of military studies. I've studied wars and battles from Qadesh to modern Iraq and Afghanistan, and read everything from Sun Tzu to von Clausewitz to Vegetius. Like John Keegan said in his book The Face of Battle, "I have never been in a battle, nor have I been near one." None of us can imagine the psychological trauma of the phalanx clash, the cavalry charge into a pike hedge, or the bombardment of artillery shells into a trench, unless we've actually lived through it. And therefore, none of us has a lot of ground to go laying blame on people. There will be civilian casualties in war, and there will be collateral damage. And so long as there are humans, there will be war. This is a sad truth, and there's no point in debating it.
With that said...
Which is why revisionist history is so darn heinous and dastardly.
I don't agree with this totally. Plenty of women and children were forced over cliffs at bayonet point, from what I've heard. Then again, I may be wrong.
I agree with point two but disagree with point one.
Why? The vast bulk of the Japanese of today didn't fight World War II. They didn't commit any atrocities or war crimes. They are not guilty at all.
Nevertheless, the deliberate suppression of history in order to "save face" and support nationalistic political agendas is unforgivable, plain and simple. Caster is a primary example of this sort of miseducation, as the deeds (or misdeeds) of his ancestors have a direct impact on his perception and feelings of national (and self-)worth. Thus, in order to avoid feeling blame or perceiving oneself as wrong, he has bought into a lot of revisionist history (i.e. "there was no Nanking Massacre" and other historical falsehoods).
I think that's playing too much on the fence. Just because Custer thought slaughtering Lakota was just and right doesn't make him any less of a sadistic gloryhound that butchered hundreds (if not thousands) of noncombatants before he met his just end at Little Big Horn. We need to see the past as it was, objectively, because if we don't, we can't learn from it. Honor those who deserve to be honored, and remember those who were evil, criminal, and tyrrannical as what they truly were.
Those who committed suicide shouldn't be honored, in my opinion, but rather mourned. They died because of a lie. The Americans were coming not with rape and plunder in mind, but Hershey bars. My great-uncle's friend went Section-8 when he saw the people who committed suicide, incapable of fighting because of the bodies of women and children he saw. We may have dropped incendiary bombs on entire cities, but the vast bulk of enlisted men did not intend to despoil the Okinawan populace.
Honoring their memory rather than mourning their unfortunate deaths is backwards because it lends creedence to the entire situation. It legitimizes it. I don't honor the people who died at the World Trade Center, they didn't die for anything special, they died because someone hated both them and the U.S. They deserve to be mourned, but not honored. These are two very different things.

Thank you GodEmperorLeto,

I also love history, and I know that all history can be very ugly at times.
And you are so right, the Pacific war was a real tragedy.
So many people were killed, so many people suffered.
May I ask you a question? Do you know how many men, women and children were killed during World War Two? I mean in Europe and the Pacific?

It must have been millions of lives that ended far too early because of this most horrible war. I am always hoping that people will learn stop killing each other. That they will make Music or play any Sport together.
I suppose that only some creatures from another Planet can unite us?

But I also believe that there are far more good than bad people all over the world. A good leader (from any country in this world) must stand up and bring us all peace for several generations. Being open and honest is the best way of telling our great grandchildren the history of World War Two.

[KirinMan]

Those who committed suicide shouldn't be honored, in my opinion, but rather mourned. They died because of a lie. The Americans were coming not with rape and plunder in mind, but Hershey bars. My great-uncle's friend went Section-8 when he saw the people who committed suicide, incapable of fighting because of the bodies of women and children he saw. We may have dropped incendiary bombs on entire cities, but the vast bulk of enlisted men did not intend to despoil the Okinawan populace.

I honestly didnt look at it from this perspective, I guess it could also be from which point of view one looks at the situation that occured. In the states Americans honor the people that died in WWII and any war for that matter on Memorial Day. All war dead even those that committed suicide.

The Okinawan's honor their war dead as well on Memorial Day here. It's kind of hard now to distingush between how each person died here.

I feel that one can both honor and mourn a persons passing, and the people that committed suicide deserve that respect.

[KirinMan]

「集団自決」の検定前後比較／那覇市議会ロビー
　沖縄戦「集団自決（強制集団死）」の教科書検定を考 える展示会が十一日午前、那覇市議会ロビーで始まった。二〇〇八年度以降に使用される高校歴史教 科書から沖縄戦の「集団自決」における日本軍関与が修 正・削除された問題をめぐり、検定対象七社の修正前と 後の教科書十四冊をずらりと並べ、問題部分の原文と修 正個所を抜粋しパネルにして展示している。
　修正前後を比較したパネルからは「集団自決」の記述 をめぐり、「日本軍に『集団自決』を強いられたり」が 「追いつめられて『集団自決』した人」に変わっている など、記述から「日本軍」という主語がすっぽり抜け落 ちていることがはっきりと分かる。同展は検定意見を撤 回するよう求める意見書案を先月十五日に可決した同市 議会が主催。六月定例会期中の十五日まで展示している 。

　開会式で、久高将光議長は「市民、職員が平和を考え る原点として沖縄戦について考えていただくことを強く 訴えたい」と話し市民の来場を呼び掛けた。


A "google" translation....

As for the Naha mayor troop participation deletion regrettable/“group suicide” correction
　Aspiration Naha Mayor old man length on the 11th, in the city assembly June conventional meeting which is in the midst of the opening of meeting “group suicide (forced group death)” to with the problem where the description regarding the participation of the Japanese military is deleted from the historical textbook of high school, “(judgment) is in the midst of disputing, but as for deletion at the stage where either irrevocable judgment has not come out regrettable you expressed truly”.
　Furthermore “from many testimonies it makes clear that the fact that several hundred inhabitants commit suicide is fact, is something by the grenade where the many of them are handed from the troop” “the inhabitant and the troop exist together and from the fact that it is to display the thusness of the miserable Okinawa game which is developed, there is no thing which is impaired rather,”, opinion was expressed that.

　High it is good Masayuki (our people non post combination) the reply


Not a great translation but enough for people to get the idea. There was a rather large demonstration here in Okinawa against the proposed re-writing of the text books with regards to the suicide issue during WWII. The Naha City office has displayed the old textbooks and the new textbooks with the proposed revision(s). There is a petition and signature campaign going on now with the plan of submitting it to the Education Minister against allowing these proposed changes. They have alread collected something in the neighborhood of 35,000 signatures over the past weekend alone in the area around the demonstration, which was held across the street from the Prefectural Office building.

Numerous speakers at the demonstration, people who were there during WWII testified and told the assembled crowd of thousands, what everyone knew, "The Japanese Government and Japanese Military at the time expressly instructed and ordered the Okinawan people, for Emperor and Country that they should commit suicide, rather than be captured by the US Military"

Their testimonies and recounting of what they experienced was emotional and extrememly moving.

The "grass-roots" movement has started, it shall be interesting how the government responds to the Okinawan people.

[caster51]

Furthermore “from many testimonies it makes clear that the fact that several hundred inhabitants commit suicide is fact, is something by the grenade where the many of them are handed from the troop

where part did you translate?

[Mikawa Ossan]

where part did you translate?
I have to agree. I saw nothing about a hand granade in the Japanese text.

[KirinMan]

I have to agree. I saw nothing about a hand granade in the Japanese text.

I agree that the translation wasn't perfect as I wrote it was a "google" translation. Here is the link to the English article;

Title Page As for the Naha mayor troop participation deletion regrettable/“group suicide” correction article
(http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.okinawatimes.co.jp/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25E6%25B2%2596%25E7%25B8%2584%25E3%2 582%25BF%25E3%2582%25A4%25E3%2583%25A0%25E3%2582%2 5B9%26hl%3Den)

and the translated article itself...

English translated article itself (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.okinawatimes.co.jp/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25E6%25B2%2596%25E7%25B8%2584%25E3%2 582%25BF%25E3%2582%25A4%25E3%2583%25A0%25E3%2582%2 5B9%26hl%3Den)


Japanese article and link....

那覇市長　軍関与削除は遺憾／「集団自決」修正 (http://www.okinawatimes.co.jp/day/200706111700_01.html)

The broadcast about the demonstration was on the local news this evening here in Okinawa

[caster51]

(hand)grenade is bushi no nasake because it is easy and there is no pain
.Japanese article and link....
那覇市長　軍関与削除は遺憾／「集団自決」修正

the truth was that grenade was given by soldiers..

there was no evidence that was forced

[KirinMan]

RBC News Video (http://www.rbc-ryukyu.co.jp/wmv/0611-01.asx) in Japanese.

歴史教科書の検定問題で検定前後の教科書を比較した展 示会が那覇市で開かれています。
　この展示会は軍命削除に抗議する意見書を可決した那 覇市議会が開催していて沖縄戦の集団自決をめぐり、日 本軍の関与を示す記述が削除された教科書と修正前の教 科書を比較展示しています。
　１１日の午前、那覇市議会のロビーで開会式が行われ那覇市議会の久高議長が「この展示会 を市民が平和を考える原点としてほしい」と述べ多くの 市民に来場を呼びかけました。
　展示会では検定前後の教科書の展示に加え修正部分を 抜き出したパネルも展示されていて検定による内容の変 更が一目でわかるように工夫されています。
　この展示会は、今月１５日まで開かれています。


Taken from;
RBC News (http://www.rbc-ryukyu.co.jp/rnews.php?itemid=11007#more)

[caster51]

I cant understand what you are talking.
How long have you been in Japan?

they never said that was forced in these article.
In new textbook, there were cornered...

i think it is correct description

[MummyMia]

I still have a lot to read on this thread and I am finding it very informing. My knowledge of history is very sketchy so I am reading and learning from the posts on here. My one question is HAS ANYONE GOT THE RIGHT TO REWRITE HISTORY? In every country there are events in history that are disputed, but has anyone got the right to simply rewrite these events? I would have thought the best for all people who have yet to learn history is to incorporate new feelings and thoughts along with the original history, not to change it!!

[KirinMan]

Demonstration Video from Saturday June 9th (http://www.rbc-ryukyu.co.jp/wmv/0611-02.asx)

This video is taken from this page;
RBC News (http://www.rbc-ryukyu.co.jp/rnews.php?&blogid=4)
教科書検定問題をめぐってはおととい、抗議の県民集会 が開かれました。
　歴史の歪曲だと反発の声が高まっています。


I cant understand what you are talking.
How long have you been in Japan?

Caster are you trying to say you can't understand what the links I put here in Japanese are saying? They have video from this evenings local news here in Okinawa. Unfortunately they are all in Japanese.

However without any doubt they give proof that the Okinawan people are not standing by and letting the education ministry and government get away with attempting to rewrite what happened here during WWII.

Oh and it doesnt matter how long I've been here, but just to let you know it's a hell of a lot longer than you may think.

[caster51]

however if it was not correct from an evidence, what would you do?

[KirinMan]

however if it was not correct from an evidence, what would you do?
Caster this time I gave you proof and "live" testimony. So are you going to sit here and tell all those Okinawan people that they dont know what they are talking about?

Now I stand by it and let those here that read and understand Japanese make any comments to the contrary.

[caster51]

教科書検定問題をめぐってはおととい、抗議の県民集会 が開かれました。
　歴史の歪曲だと反発の声が高まっています
yes there are ppl like you.

however,a candidate that supported " it was order " lost in election

[Goldiegirl]

Written history is never completely truthful. It can't be. It is always biased, based on the writer's perspective. Such as posts that claim "savage" killings when talking of one nations part in a war, yet their nation has killed and it's termed unfortunate. You see, just adding or deleting, even the act of choosing a word shows the bias of a writer. That is human nature, right or wrong. Anyway, that's how I view written history......

[caster51]

Caster this time I gave you proof and "live" testimony. So are you going to sit here and tell all those Okinawan people that they dont know what they are talking about?

Of course they were cornered...
many soldier also were cornered to kill themselves.

i said again the evidence of sucide that was orderd by army was only based on Tokashiki island. that is Akamatsu's incident.
However, It was wrong completely.

okinawa ppl did not elect a governor that the sucide was orderd and forced in his opinion

[pipokun]

Official approval front and back comparison of “group suicide”/the Naha city assembly lobby Okinawa game “group suicide (forced group death)” the exhibition which thinks of screening of school textbooks 11th morning, started at the Naha city assembly lobby. You excerpt the original and correction place of the problem part centering on the problem where the Japanese military participation from the high school historical textbook which two 〇 〇 is used after eight in “the group suicide” of Okinawa game is corrected & is deleted, alongside textbook 14 volume before and after the official approval object seven correcting of in a row, you have displayed in the panel. 　Centering on the description of “group suicide” from the panel which compares correction front and back, the subject, “Japanese military” comes out entirely from description and e.g., “it can force' group suicide to the Japanese military and/or '” to “being cornered, 'group suicide' it has changed the person whom it does”, it understands clearly that it has fallen. As for the same exhibition in order to withdraw official approval opinion, the same city assembly which last month is approved on 15th sponsoring the opinion book plan which is sought. It has displayed to 15 day during June conventional session. 　With opening ceremony, as for high military officer optical Chair Hisashi “as the starting point where the citizen and the staff think of peace we would like to appeal that you think concerning Okinawa game strongly”, you said and called the attendance of the citizen.

Obeika, what google do you use?

http://translate.google.com/translate_t?langpair=ja|en
This is the google I used.

Furthermore “from many testimonies it makes clear that the fact that several hundred inhabitants commit suicide is fact,
Where is the fact in the article?
嘘はいけません。

[Mikawa Ossan]

Since not everyone can follow the Japanese in the evidence presented thus far...

There are something like 17 textbooks that are on display at Naha, comparing the same page before and after the revising. The example that is given is a change in wording from "(the people) were forced by the Japanese military" to commit suicide to "(the people) were cornered into" committing suicide.

There is indeed mention of hand grenades in the evidence presented, and no one is denying where they came from, but in the revised textbook it just isn't mentioned where they might have come from.

The video does show a demonstration against the proposed change to the textbook, with a man quoted as saying, "The military said, 'Don't become captives of the American army! If it looks like you will, kill yourself instead!' That was the Japanese military and the country's order. We must strongly oppose anyone who would try to twist history!" This man is described at "someone who experienced events" in the onscreen text.

Aside from the demonstrators in the news video, the articles themselves do not take a side. They matter of factly describe what is happening, from the exhibit of the textbooks to the mayor of Naha describing the change as "regrettable" to the demonstrations themselves.

[caster51]

if there were survivors and witness that were orderd and forced, they would be given annuity or pension for their family or relatives by law like akamatsu case.

How many civillian were given by that except akamatsu's case?

[Ewok85]

if there were survivors and witness that were orderd and forced, they would be given annuity or pension for their family or relatives by law like akamatsu case.
How many civillian were given by that except akamatsu's case?

It could be because they are dead, and dead people can't tell their side of the story? If the survivors have been saying for years that they were told to kill themselves by the Army, its logical and almost certain to assume that these peoples families, friends and neighbours committed suicide as a result of the coercion and orders given to them by the Army.

Just because they haven't been given fair compensation is not proof of a lack of force. That is like saying that someone who has been murder really only committed suicide because the proof is that noone was sent to jail for their murder. Reverse/circular logic.

[caster51]

that is why there is also no evidence that was orderd anf forced though obeika said there are many...

akamatsu shoulders the cross for them voluntary that was nothing to do with that because of their fair compensation. he was not there

its logical and almost certain to assume that these peoples families, friends and neighbours committed suicide as a result of the coercion and orders given to them by the Army.

and enemy has approached to kill.
and Who survived?
Naturally, the soldier,they has committed suicide.too

and Mr.Teruya who worked at Ryukyu-G invetigated all civilian Survivor for fair compensation in 50's whether it was ordered and forced or not

in saipan ,solidirs and 12,000civilians dived from Banzai Clíff and killed by shooting and bombing by american.
it was easy for them to imagine like that
http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/22336.html

even tokyo bombing, there were so many ppl who lost their kids or relatives killed themselves because of no hope to live

[Ewok85]

Why was there no hope to live? The American army wasn't there to rape and plunder like the second coming of Nanking, they were there to fight anyone who fought back and make an end to the aggression that the Japanese themselves had started.

[caster51]

Why was there no hope to live? The American army wasn't there to rape and plunder like the second coming of Nanking, they were there to fight anyone who fought back and make an end to the aggression that the Japanese themselves had started

off course Japanese army was not also there to rape...
Do you know which country's military forces was doing the severest
rule?

[Ewok85]

Which country upon invading another was the most severe to the people of said invaded country? Would depend on which country was invaded too I guess. I'm thinking you're going to tell me either way...

[KirinMan]

Caster you write "the soldier,they has committed suicide.too" are you attempting to justify the civilian suicides that occured.

You dont deny that they, the civilian suicides, happened just that they were "forced", correct?

Japanese people are fighting against this change, why is that Caster?

[KirinMan]

off course Japanese army was not also there to rape...
Do you know which country's military forces was doing the severest
rule?
If we are going to stay on topic here; the the answer is very easy from my point of view and in my opinion.

The Japanese Imperial Army, hands down. Brainwashing this entire island of people into believing, which was a dowright lie, that the American Military were canibal's and barbarian's, is a much more henious crime.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Brainwashing this entire island of people into believing, which was a dowright lie, that the American Military were canibal's and barbarian's, is a much more henious crime.

A lie is a lie is a lie, yes, but I have to ask this: Did the Japanese soldiers truly believe the Americans were hell-bent on pillaging the Okinawan populace?

The behavior of the Soviets in Sakhalin and Germany was horrific, and it is possible that the Japanese were under the impression that the Americans were going to do the same as the Ruskies.

In addition, I know I've linked it elsewhere, but take a look at War Without Mercy (http://http://www.amazon.com/War-Without-Mercy-Power-Pacific/dp/0394751728/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9668773-0669457?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181601811&sr=8-1) by John Dower. Both the Japanese and American propaganda focused on dehumanizing the enemy and portraying them as animalistic barbarians. I have no doubt plenty of people on both sides bought into the propaganda.

What I cannot accept is the Japanese soldiers forcing civilians at bayonet-point who didn't want to commit suicide and wanted to take their chances with the American occupiers, although they were a minority. Nevertheless, how much did the soldiers believe about the "American rapists"?

[Ewok85]

The behavior of the Soviets in Sakhalin and Germany was horrific, and it is possible that the Japanese were under the impression that the Americans were going to do the same as the Ruskies.

You're as bad as Caster - you have your timeline wrong. Sakhalin came long after the events we are talking about.

What I cannot accept is the Japanese soldiers forcing civilians at bayonet-point who didn't want to commit suicide and wanted to take their chances with the American occupiers, although they were a minority. Nevertheless, how much did the soldiers believe about the "American rapists"?

This is something I've been thinking about too. Technically soldiers cannot "order" civilians to do anything. In English anyway, moving up the scale they could advise it, suggest it, tell them to do it, force them to do it. But you need to remember that soldiers gave grenades to civilians for the purpose of committing suicide - which on its own is a huge breach of protocol, unless they were ordered to hand it over, in which case the Army has in essence ordered and sanctioned the action. Its like giving a gun with one bullet to a desperate and depressed individual - you know what is going to happen, you are equally responsible.

[diceke]

Why was there no hope to live? The American army wasn't there to rape and plunder like the second coming of Nanking, they were there to fight anyone who fought back and make an end to the aggression that the Japanese themselves had started.
That's naive. Do you really believe that American soldiers, in the heat battle, never raped and killed any enemy non-combatants, never killed enemy soldiers attempting to surrender? These atrocities seem modest compared with the indiscriminate bombings on major cities, but nevertheless, they were inevitable part of the battle, and they did happen, historians say. During the war, the sadistic acts of enemy soldiers were propagandized, but after the war, it's just that tight censorship controlled how much the media could report, and people do not talk about the incidents as much.

Reference: Saburo Ienaga: Senso Sekinin

[Ewok85]

That's naive. Do you really believe that American soldiers, in the heat battle, never raped and killed any enemy non-combatants, never killed enemy soldiers attempting to surrender? These atrocities seem modest compared with the indiscriminate bombings on major cities, but nevertheless, they were inevitable part of the battle, and they did happen, historians say. During the war, the sadistic acts of enemy soldiers were propagandized, but after the war, it's just that tight censorship controlled how much the media could report, and people do not talk about the incidents as much.

Reference: Saburo Ienaga: Senso Sekinin

I have little doubt that it might have happened, but rape, killing civilians and POW's were all offences that were court martial-able, while similar tales made the newspapers in Japan declaring the same soldiers as courageous heros.

[KirinMan]

That's naive. Do you really believe that American soldiers, in the heat battle, never raped and killed any enemy non-combatants

In the "heat" of battle I doubt any soldier from any military raped anyone. Never killed any non-combatants, well that is a well known fact that nearly every military in the history of the world is guilty of. That is one of the saddest things about war, is the non-combatant casualties.

That sad....once again....this thread is not about American soldiers and what they did or did not do, and I am 100% sure you know that. Tiring to say the least.

Technically soldiers cannot "order" civilians to do anything. In English anyway,

However here in Japan during WWII they could and did order civilians about quite regularly.

But you need to remember that soldiers gave grenades to civilians for the purpose of committing suicide - which on its own is a huge breach of protocol, unless they were ordered to hand it over, in which case the Army has in essence ordered and sanctioned the action. Its like giving a gun with one bullet to a desperate and depressed individual - you know what is going to happen, you are equally responsible.
As I wrote here somewhere previously civilians would have been shot if they had proffered the grenades on their own, they were supplied not only to be used in the case of their own suicide, but also to take as many of the "enemy" with them as they committed suicide.

That is part of the reason that the US Military was forced in defending itself from reguard actions against them into using flame throwers to burn out people left in caves, crevices, and in some cases graves as well.

The US had experienced numerous casualties from people running out of the caves screaming and launching themselves as human bombs into the assembled soldiers or Marines at the mouth or entrance area of the caves.

Did the Japanese soldiers truly believe the Americans were hell-bent on pillaging the Okinawan populace?

I doubt it, but at the time the Japanese soldiers and civilian population of Japan believed that they were not only fighting for their country but their Emperor as well, and to die in his service was honorable and just, vs having to live with the shame of defeat of capture. However Okinawan's not being totally ingrained with the same beliefs or doctrine, but believing the Japanese soldiers and the governments propaganda at the time, followed along at their orders.

[KirinMan]

Here is another article that people may find interesting to read.


Historians Battle Over Okinawa (http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2007/04/06/historians_battle_over_okinawa_ww2_mass_suicides/)

TOKYO (Reuters) - Sumie Oshiro was 25 when she and her friends tried to kill themselves to avoid capture by U.S. soldiers at the start of the bloody Battle of Okinawa.

"We were told that if women were taken prisoner we would be raped and that we should not allow ourselves to be captured," Oshiro said on last month's anniversary of the March 26, 1945, invasion of the Japanese islet of Zamami.

"Four of us tried to commit suicide with one hand grenade, but it did not go off," Ryukyu Shimpo, a local Okinawa newspaper, quoted Oshiro as saying at a gathering of now elderly survivors.

The fighting on Zamami, south of the main Okinawan island, was the prelude to three months of carnage that took some 200,000 lives, about half of them Okinawan men, women and children.

Many civilians, often entire families, committed suicide rather than surrender to Americans, by some accounts on the orders of fanatical Japanese soldiers.

"The army ordered them to commit suicide," said Yoshikazu Miyazato, 58, who plans to publish testimony from survivors on Zamami, where he says suicides accounted for 180 of the 404 civilians -- about half of the islet's population -- who died.

The accuracy of such accounts, however, has been questioned by conservative historians who argue the suicides were voluntary.

Late last month, the education ministry ordered publishers of high school textbooks to modify references to Japanese soldiers ordering civilians to kill themselves.

The textbook revisions echo other efforts by conservatives to revise descriptions of Japan's wartime actions, including Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's denial that the military or government hauled women away to serve as sex slaves for Japanese soldiers in Asia before and during World War Two.

Abe has sought to dampen overseas outrage over his remarks by repeating his backing for a 1993 apology to the "comfort women," as they are known in Japan, and offering his own brief apology.

"In every case, Abe's administration is saying there was no military involvement," Shoukichi Kina, an opposition lawmaker from Okinawa told Reuters in a phone interview.

"They are distorting history and it is unforgiveable."

"WORSE THAN DEVILS"

One reason cited for the revisions was a lawsuit by a former Japanese army officer and relatives of another charging the two men were was falsely described in works by publisher Iwanami Shoten as having ordered civilian suicides in Okinawa.

That prompted the publisher and Nobel Prize-winning author Kenzaburo Oe to send a letter of protest to the education ministry, criticizing the fact that only the views of the plaintiffs in the court case had been taken into account.

The Battle of Okinawa, which also took the lives of about 94,000 Japanese soldiers and more than 12,000 Americans, looms large in the collective memory of inhabitants of the island -- a separate kingdom until its monarch was exiled to Tokyo in 1879.

The battle, in which up to one-third of Okinawa's inhabitants died, has been described as a futile sacrifice ordered by Japan's military leaders to delay a U.S. invasion of the mainland.

Masahide Ota, a former governor of Okinawa who fought as a member of a "Blood and Iron Corps" of students mobilized to defend the island, says soldiers gave civilians two hand grenades -- "one to throw at the enemy and one to use on themselves."

Many historians and survivors blame military propaganda that sought to convince civilians they faced rape and torture if captured by Americans, as well as an education system that taught the virtue of dying for an emperor who was considered a living god.

"They were taught that Americans were fiends, worse than devils, and that if women were caught they would be raped and men would be killed," Miyazato said. "It was the same as ordering them to commit suicide. They were taught it was better to die.

Ota, a historian as well as a member of parliament, fears the lessons of Japan's wartime past are in danger of being lost.

"Education has the responsibility to convey history accurately to our children so that our country does not repeat the tragedy of the Pacific war," he said in a statement.

"Textbooks are one method of fulfilling that mission. I think that is being forgotten."

[caster51]

The army ordered them to commit suicide," said Yoshikazu Miyazato, 58, who plans to publish testimony from survivors on Zamami, where he says suicides accounted for 180 of the 404 civilians -- about half of the islet's population -- who died.
so , Were they given any fair compensation.
if not ,why?
in akamatusu case, fair compensation was given, why did not they do?
why now?

In Zamami case , a girl ,Niyazato mieko at that time did testimony

I said "When we wanted to commit suicide, I asked the principal"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
座間味村字座間味の宮里美恵子は『座間味の集団自決』 のなかで集団自決の心理を次のように述べています。
「阿佐道の方に出てみると、艦砲射撃が激しいので、私 達は伏せながら歩き続け、やっと忠魂碑前にたどりつき ました。しかし、そこには私の家族の他に、校長先生と その奥さん、それに別の一家族いるだけで他にだれも見 当たりません。死ににきたつもりのものが、人が少ない のと、まっ赤な火が近くを飛んで行くのとで不安を覚え 、死ぬのがこわくなってきました。
ほんとに不思議なものです。『死』そのものは何もこわ くないのです。けれども、自分たちだけ弾にあたって『 死ぬ』という事と、みんな一緒に自ら手を下して『死ぬ 』という事とは、言葉の上では同じ『死』を意味しても 、気持ちの上では全く別のものでした。その気持ちはう まく言えません。
　‥‥
私は校長先生に一緒に玉砕させてくれるようお願いしま した。すると校長先生は快く引きうけてくれ、身支度を 整えるよういいつけました。「天皇陛下バンザイ」をみ んなで唱え、「死ぬ気持ちを惜しまないでりっぱに死ん でいきましょう。」と言ってから、一人の年輩の女の先 生が、だれかに当たるだろうとめくらめっぽうに手りゅ う弾を投げつけました。その中の二コが一人の若い女の 先生と女の子にあたり、先生は即死で、女の子は重傷を 負いました。

[Dutch Baka]

RBC News Video (http://www.rbc-ryukyu.co.jp/wmv/0611-01.asx) in Japanese.



Taken from;
RBC News (http://www.rbc-ryukyu.co.jp/rnews.php?itemid=11007#more)

Any translation on this article?

[Mikawa Ossan]

Any translation on this article?
Hiya there! That's what the following basically is:
Since not everyone can follow the Japanese in the evidence presented thus far...

There are something like 17 textbooks that are on display at Naha, comparing the same page before and after the revising. The example that is given is a change in wording from "(the people) were forced by the Japanese military" to commit suicide to "(the people) were cornered into" committing suicide.

There is indeed mention of hand grenades in the evidence presented, and no one is denying where they came from, but in the revised textbook it just isn't mentioned where they might have come from.

The video does show a demonstration against the proposed change to the textbook, with a man quoted as saying, "The military said, 'Don't become captives of the American army! If it looks like you will, kill yourself instead!' That was the Japanese military and the country's order. We must strongly oppose anyone who would try to twist history!" This man is described at "someone who experienced events" in the onscreen text.

Aside from the demonstrators in the news video, the articles themselves do not take a side. They matter of factly describe what is happening, from the exhibit of the textbooks to the mayor of Naha describing the change as "regrettable" to the demonstrations themselves.

[caster51]

the schema of arter war is cruel Japanese army and " the order and forced" by army.
it is a propaganda of Nikkyoso,commie , Ooe and some foreigners who transformed to leftist intention when coming to Japan.


Man thinks that a cheap conviction in the peaceful age that won't be killed himself is a cause if an outside factor like the instruction of the army etc. doesn't exist.
A cheap diagram of compulsion by a martial instruction might be able to turn one's eyes away from the truth of the mass suicide in the Okinawa war rather.

I hope to know the truth in the Ooe and Iwanami's trial

[diceke]

this thread is not about American soldiers and what they did or did not do, and I am 100% sure you know that. Tiring to say the least.

Read the preceding posts.:okashii:

[Ewok85]

"They were taught that Americans were fiends, worse than devils, and that if women were caught they would be raped and men would be killed," Miyazato said. "It was the same as ordering them to commit suicide. They were taught it was better to die."

Whats the difference between being told by an Army Officer "Its better to die that be captured" and "You should die rather than be captured"?

so , Were they given any fair compensation.
if not ,why?

The why is obvious.

[caster51]

The why is obvious.

Yeah, even witness and survivors did not think it was ordered and forced.
it was natural....

[KirinMan]

Yeah, even witness and survivors did not think it was ordered and forced.
it was natural....

Caster there is nothing natural in war, particularly this issue of suicide. Caster go on believing what you want, I live here in Okinawa and I know these people pretty well, I am not arrogant to say I know everything, but I know quite a bit about the people and let me share something with you about them. I doubt that you will truly pay attention but here goes anyhow, they are a quiet and docile community by nature, abbhorant of violence and peaceful. Welcoming to all vistors and extrememly friendly and honest.

Caster the people giving their testimonies and leading the demonstrations against these changes are honest, believe what you want to believe, but this issue is far from over and is going to get bigger and bigger before too long.


Wait and watch.

Any translation on this article?
Hiya there! That's what the following basically is:

Thank you.

[pipokun]

...
Caster the people giving their testimonies and leading the demonstrations against these changes are honest, believe what you want to believe, but this issue is far from over and is going to get bigger and bigger before too long.
Wait and watch.
Thank you.


抗議署名２万８１７７人に／「集団自決」修正
　文部科学省の高校歴史教科書検定への抗議の輪が沖縄 から全国へ広がっている。「沖縄戦の歴史歪曲を許さな い！県民大会」実行委員会が県内外の関係団体に署名を 呼び掛けたところ、七日現在で二万八千百七十七人分が 集まった。実行委は五万人を目標に置いているが、「こ れを超えると期待している」と話している。
　そのうち約一万八千人分は全国の分。日教組が第一次 分として集約したものが大半で各県の教員が署名した。 実行委は「実際に教科書を手に取る先生の署名が多いの はありがたい。今、何が起きているのかを学校現場でも 知ってもらいたい」と語る。
http://www.okinawatimes.co.jp/day/200706081300_03.html
Collected 28177 signatures against the revise
18000 out of 28177 signatures comes from outside Okinawa. Japan Teacher Union mainly collected them.

I am not surprised if they would collect millions of it, for there are tons of voters supporting JCP, SDPJ, or whatever.
It must scare me if all people in Okinawa would be anti-US base activists.

Caster there is nothing natural in war
Right. Many died in the war, but the real tragedy in this matter is that people had to survive even after they killed their families after the war, therefore they needed the reason, that is, to claim it had been the military order.
Ask your wife to read the Sono's book. It tells her or you that the war was terrible even it was not the military order or even after the war.

[Ewok85]

Collected 28177 signatures against the revise
18000 out of 28177 signatures comes from outside Okinawa. Japan Teacher Union mainly collected them.

Whats you're point - are you saying if they aren't Okinawan, their opinions don't count? Ultimately it is teachers who have to use these books, and apparently at least 18,000 don't agree with it.

Many died in the war, but the real tragedy in this matter is that people had to survive even after they killed their families after the war, therefore they needed the reason, that is, to claim it had been the military order.
Ask your wife to read the Sono's book. It tells her or you that the war was terrible even it was not the military order or even after the war.

So you are claiming it is the fault of the survivors families that they died!? Whoa, would love to see you say that to the face of someone who lost family in the war.

[diceke]

I have little doubt that it might have happened, but rape, killing civilians and POW's were all offences that were court martial-able, while similar tales made the newspapers in Japan declaring the same soldiers as courageous heros.
Like which newspapers in Japan said that raping and killing civilians were courageous acts? :okashii:

These acts were penal offenses in the IJA back then, but then again violence is an inevitable part of war. (cf. military laws 海軍刑法／陸軍刑法. ) After all, the IJA was developed with foreign assistance, much of it was modeled after France and Germany.

[Ewok85]

This article is a good start - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contest_to_Kill_First_100_Chinese_with_Sword

[EmperorHirohito]

And Yes that article is a very good place to start. In wartime it is a case of Kill or be Killed, and most soldiers understand that, but to make it into a contest of killing as many as you can and to turn it into some sort of race, is in my view Wrong.

And I am afraid to say that I think the execution of the two Officers was justified. To me there is something very wrong in cutting off the head of a Chinese farmer just so that your tally of dead can exceed your opponents.

[diceke]

This article is a good start - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contest_to_Kill_First_100_Chinese_with_Sword
Like where? Where does it say in the paper that "raping and killing CIVILIANS were courageous"?

[Mikawa Ossan]

I found this part of the article to be especially interesting:Bob Tadashi Wakabayashi, who, in 2000, undertook one of the most comprehensive studies of the incident ever conducted, reached the conclusion that "the killing contest itself was a fabricated story", but served as a positive influence in Japanese culture, making the Japanese more aware of some of the wartime atrocities that had actually been conducted by the Imperial Japanese Army.

[caster51]

their posthumous writings and death poem were so sad..

their Jokes were propagated as promotion of fighting spirit by media

then they were excuted:(

Tsuyoshi Noda
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%87%8E%E7%94%B0%E6%AF%85_%28%E9%99%B8%E8%BB%8D% E8%BB%8D%E4%BA%BA%29

Toshiaki Mukai
http://www.geocities.jp/aspara_z/data_0024.html

http://www.history.gr.jp/~nanking/100.html

[caster51]

video of Tokashiki's survivors and teruya's exposure

japanese soldiers said " Civilians should not commit suicide . get away here to safe place"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P16oG_3X89o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S-aZzzt4Mw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WawZhQ1bv_w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3zwIZur6Wg

sorry Japanese language only

[pipokun]

Whats you're point - are you saying if they aren't Okinawan, their opinions don't count? Ultimately it is teachers who have to use these books, and apparently at least 18,000 don't agree with it.
So you are claiming it is the fault of the survivors families that they died!? Whoa, would love to see you say that to the face of someone who lost family in the war.

Ewok85, force your wife to read the book.
Your wife and you can find the deep-rooted reason.

[Ewok85]

Ewok85, force your wife to read the book.
Your wife and you can find the deep-rooted reason.

My wife hasn't got any interest in reading it, and I wouldn't force her anyway.

How about you just tell me the deep-rooted reason that so many Okinawan survivors of WWII say that Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them to kill themselves, and are in your opinion apparently lying?

[caster51]

Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them

who? how?................


off topic

here is Byakkotai Tribute
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1IIo4o3beo

[pipokun]

OK, but don't forget that it is unfair if you call Japanese women are stupid in the future, just because your wife is not interested in history or whatever.

It might have been happier if the Japanese/US solders or officers killed them, but in the alleged suicide case, the survivors could survive because they had not been killed by their family members or neighbors.

About the Union, it has been a long mystery for me that you can find tons of anti-Japan or US propaganda, but no anti-PRC, DPRK or commies propaganda even in the caricature section.
http://www.jtu-net.or.jp/colume/pic_news/series/series22.html
http://www.jtu-net.or.jp/colume/pic_news/series/series09.html

Anyways, I will not be surprised even if they or another union supporting JCP will collect hundreds of thoudsands of the petition.

[Ewok85]

My wife is an adult. This book is for children. She has already read a similar book, and we all know what was written in the old versions, as well as the new.

And the links you gave aren't propaganda, its caricatures and political comments.

[diceke]

My wife is an adult. This book is for children. She has already read a similar book, and we all know what was written in the old versions, as well as the new.
The book is for children? You mean this book?
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/3871/51hpwbcrdjlss500pp9.th.jpg (http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/3871/51hpwbcrdjlss500pp9.jpg)

[Ewok85]

Wow, its sad that you two have to get personal as well as give meaningless responses to get anywhere in this thread.

diceke - wrong book. I don't even know what the #%@! you are on about now. This topic is about one thing, and one thing alone - lets go back to the start.

TOKYO ― The government ordered changes Friday to seven history textbooks describing how the Japanese army forced civilians to commit mass suicide at the end of World War II, the country's latest effort to soften brutal accounts of its wartime conduct.
The high school textbooks...

It is about these high school textbooks, books for children who are in high school.

And pipokun, stay on topic will you.

I have a single and simple question which I've now asked twice. Why have so many Okinawan survivors of WWII said that Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them to kill themselves?

And bonus question would be: Do the opinions and first hand experiences of these people "not count" in your little argument? And finally, are you suggesting that these people are wrong, or even worse, lying?

[KirinMan]

I have a single and simple question which I've now asked twice. Why have so many Okinawan survivors of WWII said that Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them to kill themselves?

And bonus question would be: Do the opinions and first hand experiences of these people "not count" in your little argument? And finally, are you suggesting that these people are wrong, or even worse, lying?


Fair questions...I hope you get fair answers from them as well. I am also interested in their replies.

[caster51]

Why have so many Okinawan survivors of WWII said that Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them to kill themselves?

it is easy.
some ppl also think we were victims of Japanese army.
then we were burnt and killed . atomic bomds were dorpped because of cruel Japanese army like commies said.

even my city's nikkyoso says we were forced and orderd to fight for WW2 by army

[KirinMan]

it is easy.
some ppl also think we were victims of Japanese army.
then we were burnt and killed . ......even my city's nikkyoso says we were forced and orderd to fight for WW2

Thank for agreeing that the suicides committed during WWII were due to the orders of the Japanese Imperial Army and government.

Since you obviously agree my next question is why then are you for the textbooks being rewritten?

[caster51]

Thank for agreeing that the suicides committed during WWII were due to the orders of the Japanese Imperial Army and government.

NoPe i dont agree with you at all:blush:
Beause it is not the fact.

[KirinMan]

NoPe i dont agree with you at all:blush:
Beause it is not the fact.

Well then from now on you and I are going to have to agree to disagree because I know for a fact that it was according to the orders of the Japanese Military and Government at the time that people, civilians and soldiers, airmen, and sailor's alike commit suicide and die for their country and Emperor rather than surrender.

That Caster is a fact.

[caster51]

Well then from now on you and I are going to have to agree to disagree because I know for a fact that it was according to the orders of the Japanese Military and Government at the time that people, civilians and soldiers, airmen, and sailor's alike commit suicide and die for their country and Emperor rather than surrender.

However...
it was not orderd and foeced to commit suicide by Japanese Military and Government at the time.

even today, commit suicide by the order and forced is the shame.
we want to decide our last ourselves even though I choose sucide as a result.
it is human dignity. You have made their dignity dirty

[KirinMan]

However...
it was not orderd and foeced to commit suicide by Japanese Military and Government at the time.



Give me a break, you know darn well that it was ordered, what the heck do you call the Kamikaze pilots that wreaked havoc over the US ships during the Battle of Okinawa and other places? They knew damn well ahead of time that they were on a one way ticket to death.

How about the "banzai" attacks into well defended and fortified positions all over the Pacific.

What do you call the Japanese that pulled pins on hand grenades and held them to their chests, murders?

The "shame" they felt was due to defeat and not being able to fulfill their "duty" to country and the Emperor. Suicide was an acceptable and honorable way to die. You know that as well.

even today, commit suicide by the order and forced is the shame.

This doesnt make any sense at all, who today is going to "order" someone to commit suicide?

we want to decide our last ourselves even though I choose sucide as a result. it is human dignity

Are you trying to say that people who choose to commit suicide is a matter of human dignity?

I dont agree, suicide is a cop out, running away, fear of facing up to one's own mistakes, among a host of other things as well.

People who commit suicide to me are cowards.

I can also understand, whether I agree or not is another subject, but I understand the "why" behind the suicides during WWII and particularly here in Okinawa as well. To me they were doing what they thought was their duty, because of the shame and failure in being beaten by an enemy.

[caster51]

People who commit suicide to me are cowards.

i dnot think so at all.
it depends...

however , I dont choose to commit sucide by someone's direct ordering




I dont agree, suicide is a cop out, running away, fear of facing up to one's own mistakes, among a host of other things as well.

they selected it their digunity

[KirinMan]

i dnot think so at all.
it depends...
they selected it their digunity
Caster this is not "samurai" Japan, nor the Japan of WWII, the Emperor is no long viewed of as being a god.

Today suicide, even here, is a form of cowardice.

[caster51]

Caster this is not "samurai" Japan, nor the Japan of WWII, the Emperor is no long viewed of as being a god.
Today suicide, even here, is a form of cowardice.

Nop, more than 60% of committing sucide are reason of their hopeless health of old guys.
it is not said they are coward..

[KirinMan]

Nop, more than 60% of committing sucide are reason of their health of old guys.
it is not said they are coward..

Euthanasia or mercy killing is a different subject, technically speaking one could call it "suicide". I dont put them in the same category.

Caster who ordered the Kamikaze pilots to kill themselves in attacking the US warships during the battle of Okinawa and elsewhere?

Caster who or what made the Japanese soldiers believe that pulling the pins on hand grenades and committing suicide was an honorable way of dying, instead of surrendering?

[caster51]

Euthanasia or mercy killing is a different subject, technically speaking one could call it "suicide". I dont put them in the same category
it is the same ...
they were corner and death was approaching by enemy.

did you watched testimony of tokashiki survivor ?

were they coward?
I dont think so.
they were so brave.
that is why oota said it in his last teregram" okinawan had fought bravely

Sakhalin and himeturi girls were so coward?
i dont think so at all

in case of sakhlin, they did their best until last

[KirinMan]

were they coward?
I dont think so
OK I disagree, they had other options, they could have surrendered and lived.

Sure they may have had the shame of defeat on their minds for the rest of their lives, but at least they would be alive. Living takes more courage than dying Caster. Life is hard.
that is why oota said it in his last teregram" okinawan had fought bravely
I've read it, and been to where he made his last stand with his men and been in the caves where numerous men committed suicide by pulling pins on their hand grenades, the holes are still left in the walls of the cave.

Sobering to say the least, I didnt say they weren't brave or not courageous, just took the cowards exit.

[KirinMan]

it is the same ...
they were corner and death was approaching by enemy.


Caster you know here too that it is illogical to equate a situation in war with a health issue, it isnt the same.

Once again my reply to you...they could have surrendered. They had options.

[KirinMan]

Okinawa Slams History Text Rerwrite (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070623a1.html)

The following is taken from the above link, this was all over the news here in Okinawa this past weekend. Evidently every City and Town assembly in the prefecture has passed similar resolutions requesting the government to retract the proposed re-writes to the textbooks.

All the assembly resolutions were unanimous as well.



Saturday, June 23, 2007


Okinawa slams history text rewrite
Assembly tells state to retract order to downplay mass suicides

Compiled from Kyodo, AP

The Okinawa Prefectural Assembly demanded Friday that the central government retract its instruction to high school history textbook publishers to downplay the military's role in ordering mass civilian suicides during the Battle of Okinawa.


Protesters demand Friday in Naha that the government retract its instruction to revise history textbooks to downplay the military's role in ordering mass suicides in the prefecture during the war. KYODO PHOTO


The assembly issued the call in a unanimously adopted statement after 36 out of the 41 municipal assemblies in the prefecture adopted similar statements and civic groups collected 100,000 signatures opposing the government move.

In the statement, the assembly said, "It is an undeniable fact that mass suicides could not have occurred without the involvement of the Japanese military.

"We strongly call on the government to retract the instruction and to immediately restore the description in the textbooks so the truth of the Battle of Okinawa will be handed down correctly and a tragic war will never happen again."

Okinawa was the only inhabited part of Japan where ground fighting took place in the closing days of World War II. During the battle, a quarter of Okinawa's civilian population died. More than 200,000 Japanese and Americans died in the bloody battle.

Many survivors say Japanese soldiers, on the brink of defeat, told them to kill themselves and their loved ones. But some military-related people deny that mass suicides and murder-suicides were ordered.

In March, the Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology Ministry advised publishers of the textbooks to be used in the next school year to reword descriptions that the embattled Imperial Japanese Army forced civilians to kill themselves in the war so they would not be taken prisoner by the U.S. military.

Textbooks for Japanese schools must be screened and approved by a government-appointed expert panel, which can order corrections of perceived historical inaccuracies.

According to the results of the screening, one textbook initially stated that "the Japanese army gave hand grenades to residents, making them commit mass suicide and kill each other."

But after the screeners took issue with the description, saying it could result in misunderstanding, the textbook was revised to state, "Mass suicides and killings took place among the residents using hand grenades given to them by the Japanese army."

Other textbooks simply deleted the words "by the Japanese army."

Two assembly members were traveling to Tokyo to hand deliver the statement to the education ministry, Assemblyman Akira Nakasone said.

Accounts of forced group suicides and murder-suicides in Okinawa are backed up by historical research, and by testimonies from victims' relatives.

Historians also say government propaganda induced civilians to believe U.S. soldiers would commit horrible atrocities, leading many to kill themselves and their loved ones to avoid capture.

But in recent years, some academics have questioned whether the suicides were forced — part of a general push by Japanese conservatives to soften criticism of Tokyo's wartime conduct.

[Bucko]

Obeika, you might want to reconsider your statement about suicide being the "cowards way out" when talking in relation to other cultures and other times. In Japan at that time, suicide was considered the most noble way to right your wrongs. Considering this culture, I can understand why it would be a fact that the soldiers gave the civilians grenades to suicide with.

[KirinMan]

Obeika, you might want to reconsider your statement about suicide being the "cowards way out" when talking in relation to other cultures and other times. In Japan at that time, suicide was considered the most noble way to right your wrongs. Considering this culture, I can understand why it would be a fact that the soldiers gave the civilians grenades to suicide with.

One thing that was different here in the battle of Okinawa was the unprecedented numbers of Japanese soldiers that surrendered or were captured over 10,000 or roughly 10% of force that was here defending the island. The Japanese soldiers themselves knew that the end was near, and there was no reason for them to commit suicide nor force the civilians that they, he Japanese, forced and sandwiched between themselves and the attacking American forces. There was no need for that, it was an act of self preservation nothing else, and when that didnt work they killed themselves.

You should watch some of the actual footage taken by US soldiers and Marines at the time of women throwing their babies over cliffs and then jumping in after them. It is heart wrenching to say the least, and was totally preventable. It is unfortunate that these people believed the propaganda that the government at the time fed them

During the battle itself the then Governor of the prefecture asked on numerous occasions for directions for the civilian population of Okinawan's stuck between these two forces for safe haven areas that they could flee to and the Japanese forces refused to give them the directions on where to flee. They prefered to have the Okinawans as a shield for their defensive positions. They abused the local population and then when they found their own positions undefendable they committed suicide and forced others to do the same.

This culture may have once been that way in allowing people to commit ritual suicide to attone for mistakes or wrongdoings. I never wrote that they were not courageous, or not brave. They were a formidable enemy at the time, yet even with saying that I still have the opinion that committing suicide and forcing others that didn't have their same beliefs to do the same was a cowardly act.

[caster51]

You should watch some of the actual footage taken by US soldiers and Marines at the time of women throwing their babies over cliffs and then jumping in after them. It is heart wrenching to say the least, and was totally preventable. It is unfortunate that these people believed the propaganda that the government at the time fed them

it was a just hindsight-based opinion.:souka:
most ppl understand the bottom and Top later

On Sakhalin, Soviet forces moving southwards from August 10 encountered the Japanese 88th Division along the line of fortifications near the border with the Soviet sector of the island. The defenders’ objective was to buy time for civilians to flee by ship to Hokkaido. Six thousand residents of Maoka (now Kholmsk) on the western coast had already been evacuated when the Soviet attack commenced before dawn on August 20. Soviet warships entered the harbor, firing on the town and the 18,000 refugees waiting to be evacuated. Civilians were machine-gunned as they ran towards the hills in an attempt to escape the Soviet troops pouring off the warships. Japanese records suggest that approximately 1,000 people were killed that morning. After reporting the happenings of the previous few hours, the final message from the last of nine young telephonists at the exchange at Maoka, 22 year-old Itoh Chie, ended with these poignant words.[11]
To everyone back in Naichi [Japanese mainland]…. To our friends at the Wakkanai Exchange... Soviet soldiers have just entered the building here in the Maoka Exchange. This will probably be the last message from Karafuto [Sakhalin]. The nine of us have stayed at our posts right through to the end, and it won’t be long before all nine of us will have departed for the next world.

http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/22336.html

[KirinMan]

it was a just hindsight-based opinion.
most ppl understand the bottom and Top later
The people in many cases before jumping were told by Japanese translators attached to the US units that they would not be harmed.
Plus it isnt an opinion it is a fact.

The second half of your post here is off topic.

Here is a link to some movies that have been produced using actual footage from the battle itself.

My father-in-law's cousin was one of the supervisors in one of the films refered to as Ichi feet undou, it is a sobering movie, I will be buying it with in the next few days to show my kids about the horrors of the battle here and to teach them about the value of peace.

Records without Mercy (http://www.yidff.jp/2003/cat095/03c101-e.html)

[caster51]

The people in many cases before jumping were told by Japanese translators attached to the US units that they would not be harmed.
Plus it isnt an opinion it is a fact.

I say you are talking just hindsight-based opinion.
It might decoy out of ...

[caster51]

Here is a link to some movies that have been produced using actual footage from the battle itself.

My father-in-law's cousin was one of the supervisors in one of the films refered to as Ichi feet undou, it is a sobering movie, I will be buying it with in the next few days to show my kids about the horrors of the battle here and to teach them about the value of peace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptv7P5LZoP8

why did U.S bomed them indiscriminately.....
it was natural to be a panic,fear and hopelessness

[pipokun]

...
Considering this culture, I can understand why it would be a fact that the soldiers gave the civilians grenades to suicide with.
The real tragedy in this case was the soldier was local boueitai whom the survivors also knew and survivors could be survived because they were not killed by their families or neighbours.

No matther how much demonized Japanese or the local boueitai, it was the naval gunfire that killed millions of people in the islands.

Wow, its sad that you two have to get personal as well as give meaningless responses to get anywhere in this thread.
diceke - wrong book. I don't even know what the #%@! you are on about now. This topic is about one thing, and one thing alone - lets go back to the start.
It is about these high school textbooks, books for children who are in high school.
And pipokun, stay on topic will you.
I have a single and simple question which I've now asked twice. Why have so many Okinawan survivors of WWII said that Imperial Japanese Army soldiers and officers told them to kill themselves?
And bonus question would be: Do the opinions and first hand experiences of these people "not count" in your little argument? And finally, are you suggesting that these people are wrong, or even worse, lying?

Nobody says so. The forced suicide stories was based on a book published in Okinawa just after the war, and activists and Kenzaburo Oe also refered to it. Then Sono did her field research more than 30 years ago after the end of occupation and showed how the myth was created. Don't worry she does not justify or glorify the battle at all.

And bonus from me, is you wife is talking only about the textbook? What was the related book which she read?

[KirinMan]

No matther how much demonized Japanese or the local boueitai, it was the naval gunfire that killed millions of people in the islands.


I understand that people get emotional about this subject however there is no need to over exaggerate the numbers of people here in Okinawa.

There are a little over 240,000 recognized deaths from all sides from the Battle of Okinawa.

Let's not get too carried away in trying to make a point please.

[caster51]

I understand that people get emotional about this subject however there is no need to over exaggerate the numbers of people here in Okinawa.
There are a little over 240,000 recognized deaths from all sides from the Battle of Okinawa.
Let's not get too carried away in trying to make a point please.


it is as same as hiroshima, nagasaki...
at first ,it is true that american dropped a-bomd.
why this point is not made as big . Did they forget it?

[caster51]

Ｉ　think the objective fact should be written in History textbook

Hero and victim's emotion are not needed in textbook
Is it a problem to correct the history of the lie?Then, the justice is only
ruined by emotion

[pipokun]

One thing that was different here in the battle of Okinawa was the unprecedented numbers of Japanese soldiers that surrendered or were captured over 10,000 or roughly 10% of force that was here defending the island.
...

Thank you for your English lesson.
mil·lion
million /míllyən/
noun
plural millions
1. thousand thousand: a thousand thousand (106)
2. large number: a very large number
(often used in the plural)
3. million units of a currency: a million units of a currency, especially dollars or pounds
4. seventh digit to left of decimal: the seventh digit to the left of the decimal point in the decimal number system

I just intended to use the meaning #2.

I don't know how to use the English word, unprecedented, but do you know roughly 10% was signigicantly low percentage compared with other countries. And it was just a few points higher than other battle fields.
But I don't mean here it was good or bad, just I don't under/overestimate it.

It is also a fact many people feel the activist toublesome.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Was there a Kempeitai office in Okinawa? Yes?

Then none of you shall ever know the answer, because then all evidents have been properly destroyed.

[Bucko]

it is as same as hiroshima, nagasaki...
at first ,it is true that american dropped a-bomd.
why this point is not made as big . Did they forget it?

I think you'll find that Westerners know more about Hiroshima and Nagasaki than incidents of Japanese brutalisation. We get taught about Hiroshima and Nagasaki from a very young age in Australia. It wasn't until after I became interested in Japan that I found out about things like the Rape of Nanking, the Rape of Manilla, Japanese scientific experiments on live humans etc.

So if anything, the West is actually more ignorant about Japan's atrocities than the Japanese. For the average person, WWII in the Pacific started because Japan bombed Pearl Harbour.

[KirinMan]

Thank you for your English lesson.
I just intended to use the meaning #2.
I don't know how to use the English word, unprecedented, but do you know roughly 10% was signigicantly low percentage compared with other countries. And it was just a few points higher than other battle fields.
But I don't mean here it was good or bad, just I don't under/overestimate it.
It is also a fact many people feel the activist toublesome.

Unprecendented means without previous instance; never before known or experienced; unexampled or unparalleled: an unprecedented event.

There is a very good reason for using that when talking about the battle that happened here. Previous to Okinawa the Japanese forces that defended the islands that the US landed on in it's island hopping campaign across the pacific almost never surrendered and either committed suicide or died attacking the US forces in well noted suicidal attacks against heavily fortified positions.

This reference has nothing to do with other countries. This comment was made as a point of fact about the Japanese forces only.

You over exaggerated the numbers of deaths by naval gunfire here in the battle of Okinawa by staing that "millions" were killed.

I think you'll find that Westerners know more about Hiroshima and Nagasaki than incidents of Japanese brutalisation. We get taught about Hiroshima and Nagasaki from a very young age in Australia. It wasn't until after I became interested in Japan that I found out about things like the Rape of Nanking, the Rape of Manilla, Japanese scientific experiments on live humans etc.

I think that depends on the country, when I was in school I was taught about these events in history about WWII.

So if anything, the West is actually more ignorant about Japan's atrocities than the Japanese.

I dont know about this many Japanese people I know are pretty much in the dark about these incidents as well. And it does no good to further muddy the waters by attemtping to further rewrite accepted history.
I know that the Chinese and Koreans are well schooled in these atrocities, hence their current dislike for the current Japanese administrations push to rewrite many different aspects regarding WWII. That however is a different topic not related to this one.

Hero and victim's emotion are not needed in textbook
Caster it has nothing to do with emotions, other than anger at the attempt to changes what occured here.

Caster do you actually think that all the Prefectural, City and Town assemblies here in Okinawa are misguided? They all voted unanimously against the proposed changes to the textbooks, if you are as intelligent as I think you are that should open your eyes that something is wrong.

It isnt just one American here, me, telling you that something isnt right, it's all the elected representatives here in Okinawa. Plus the recently elected member of the Japanese Diet from Okinawa Itokazu Keiko is reported to have said that she will be bringing this issue up to the full assembly of the Japanese parliment in either the next few days or weeks.

it is as same as hiroshima, nagasaki...
at first ,it is true that american dropped a-bomd.
why this point is not made as big . Did they forget it?

Caster did you forget that more people died here in Okinawa during the battle here than the bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

Yet the world remembers Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but few remember Okinawa.

Did you forget this?

[Bucko]

I dont know about this many Japanese people I know are pretty much in the dark about these incidents as well.

I would dispute that. From my experience, the whole idea about Japanese people being in the dark about their WWII history is a myth. They are all taught about the atrocities at school, and it's frequently talked about in the mass media. The fact that people are trying to CHANGE the current textbooks would tell you that the CURRENT ones all talk about all these incidents.

There are, of course, some minor events which the average Japanese wouldn't know, like maybe the bombing of Australia which killed around 100 people. I'm certainly never offended nor surprised when a Japanese doesn't know about this. Doesn't mean they don't know about the major incidents though.

[pipokun]

You over exaggerated the numbers of deaths by naval gunfire here in the battle of Okinawa by staing that "millions" were killed.

OK, I use a very large number (2. large number: a very large number) people were killed by naval gunfire here.
Just google Typhoon of Steel. But don't get me wrong, I also understand the feeling why the Typhoon was needed by the US, though I don't know if they really needed the typhoon after Japan lost air supremacy in Okinawa. This is the same question about the Nagasaki.
FIY, the Tokashiki incident, which was allegedly the cause of forced suicide, happened after the loss of air supremacy.

Not all support the anti-base activist in Okinawa or else, though it is highly likely the next step of the activist is about the base.

[caster51]

Caster did you forget that more people died here in Okinawa during the battle here than the bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.
Yet the world remembers Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but few remember Okinawa.
Did you forget this?
??
there were more in mainland

Yet the world remembers Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but few remember Okinawa.
Did you forget this?[

of course ,U.S forse bomded indiscriminatry and killed many civilians
and US force should get out from Okinawa

I think that depends on the country, when I was in school I was taught about these events in history about WWII

WOW. no japanese says so.
you mean it chronology ?

I thought the history is one that study myself

[Ewok85]

There are, of course, some minor events which the average Japanese wouldn't know, like maybe the bombing of Australia which killed around 100 people. I'm certainly never offended nor surprised when a Japanese doesn't know about this. Doesn't mean they don't know about the major incidents though.

Haha, I had a real laugh when a guy asked me where I was born, and he knew about the bombing of Darwin. I thought that was something really bizarre to know about, as its fairly minor history. (The bigger deal was that so many people ran away!)

it is as same as hiroshima, nagasaki...
at first ,it is true that american dropped a-bomd.
why this point is not made as big . Did they forget it?

Do I really have to answer this? Japan aggressively attacked and invaded dozens of nations. Its called a war.

I hate repeating myself, but without the A-bombs, do you think that the war would have been resolved with less Japanese people dying, or more?

[caster51]

Do I really have to answer this? Japan aggressively attacked and invaded dozens of nations. Its called a war.

I hate repeating myself, but without the A-bombs, do you think that the war would have been resolved with less Japanese people dying, or more?

Yes you are absolutely right.
if I did not kill, I was killed...this is principle of War
so we have to discuss what war is ....

then who is repeating the WAR NOW
There is no war that the citizens are not sacrificed.

WHY DOES WAR happen?

what was american taught from history in school?
NOTHING

If japan killed more chinese until last for end of War....? dying or more

your logic is like that

[caster51]

I understand that people get emotional about this subject however there is no need to over exaggerate the numbers of people here in Okinawa.
There are a little over 240,000 recognized deaths from all sides from the Battle of Okinawa.
Let's not get too carried away in trying to make a point please.

200,000 ppl were killed by bombing of US fighter and ship's guns bombardment among 240,000.
Only the bald mountains remained　by them

I can say it was massacre.
it is 100 time more credibility than in Nanjing .

[KirinMan]

200,000 ppl were killed by bombing of US fighter and ship's guns bombardment among 240,000.
Only the bald mountains remained　by them


Caster I wouldn't go that far I am pretty sure that the Marines and soldiers killed their fair share of Japanese too.

Caster how old are you?



Second half of post.......off topic.

[Ewok85]

I'm going to say only one last thing in this thread.

When did Japan surrender?
Answer: Not until after Okinawa, after Hiroshima, after Nagasaki. After it had annexed Korea, and China, and the Philippines, and Singapore, and Manilla, and New Guinea, and... etc etc.

Japan was a country at war, which refused to surrender, violently attacked other countries and killed millions of people. This is pure, undeniable fact.

When the tide of the war swung at Midway, Japan was slowly forced back. Despite losing ships, planes and soldiers, despite having Okinawa attacked, Japan did not surrender. This is pure, undeniable fact.

Japan was a country that was at war. It chose to be at war. And it chose to surrender, and stop the war.

The attacks against Japan stopped. The killing stopped.

To call counter-attacks on a country that started hostilities against other countries to be a "massacre" is pushing the boundaries of reality IMO. And then to compare it to Nanking is offensive.

Time and again I wonder just how someone can take a "victim" mentality when it was their own country who started hostilities against dozens of nations and invaded the entirety of what we call "South East Asia". More shocking is the culture of denial around the more shocking events, despite the amount of witness reports from both sides that exist, and sadly I think that history and the real victims are going to lose this one as the dead have little way to defend themselves.

[KirinMan]

I would dispute that. From my experience, the whole idea about Japanese people being in the dark about their WWII history is a myth. They are all taught about the atrocities at school, and it's frequently talked about in the mass media. The fact that people are trying to CHANGE the current textbooks would tell you that the CURRENT ones all talk about all these incidents

The current textbooks only refer to the incidents where Japanese people were the victims. There is scant to zero reference to the issues of the comfort women or the atrocities of Nanking and or the infamous Unit 731.

Students here are not taught about these subjects. Unit 731 is not talked about in the media, plus the only reason the Comfort Women issue or this issue is being discussed in the media is because "other" countries brought these issues up as being unresolved.

though I don't know if they really needed the typhoon after Japan lost air supremacy in Okinawa. This is the same question about the Nagasaki.
FIY, the Tokashiki incident, which was allegedly the cause of forced suicide, happened after the loss of air supremacy.


In war bombs cause superficial and not subterrain damage. The Japanese troops were holed up into caves and underground bunkers, no amount of naval gunfire or dropping of bombs would have dislodged them from their positions. Whether or not there was air superiority for the US the ground forces had to be defeated otherwise the island would never have been taken.

Oh and btw the suicides are not just about Tokashiki but here on the main island of Okinawa as well, and they are not allegeded incidents but facts.I challenge you as I challenged Caster to come here to Okinawa and talk to the survivors of the war, visit the war museum, and see the battle sites.

If you can come away afterwards and still think that these incidents were "allegeded" then you and I have nothing further to discuss on this topic and I will leave you alone.

Dont stay in a cocoon of disbelief in thinking that these incidents are just the figment of the Okinawan peoples imagination.

[KirinMan]

I would dispute that. From my experience, the whole idea about Japanese people being in the dark about their WWII history is a myth. They are all taught about the atrocities at school, and it's frequently talked about in the mass media. The fact that people are trying to CHANGE the current textbooks would tell you that the CURRENT ones all talk about all these incidents
I would like to add something further here in response to this statement. I had the opportunity today to talk to a couple of people about this topic, one is a history professor and the other is a JHS/HS Social Studies teacher.
You may be surprised to learn that there are many younger kids here in Japan today that have no knowledge that Japan even fought a war with the US.
It is no myth that they are in the dark about what happened, sure they learn about Hiroshima and Nagasaki but they are taught nothing about any of the atrocities that were committed.

The textbooks in question also do not go into detail about the war itself but cover the issue of the Battle of Okinawa from the point of view as it being the only land battle actually fought here in Japan during the war. Hence the desire to make the Japanese Imperial Army and it's aggressions towards it's own people less known amongst the general public.

After hearing what they had to tell me about this topic I began to understand better why some people posting on this thread do not want to admit, realize or accept that these atrocities ever occured.

It is the same as a child being told from birth that "this never happened". The child being a child accepts the information because the child knows and trusts the people teaching him or her. The obvious reaction is anger, disbelief and distrust when they are faced with or given information that goes against everything they were taught.

One can not blame the child for not being informed, they are not wrong because they were never exposed to or taught that there are always at least two sides to every history. The child is not taught how to take information and formulate their own decisions but only is force fed what the current government wants it to believe.

One can only lay the blame on the government that allowed the child to be only exposed to or taught a paper thin view of the actual events in question. It is about time the government here stop treating it's citizens as children that don't know any better and let the people make their own decisions, based on a wider and more open view of the events and how they unfolded.

Open debate among the citizens without the government influencing the outcome would be healthy.

The Japanese of today should have no reason to fear, or feel guilt about it's past, but to do so the people here throughout Japan, and not just here in Okinawa need to know what happened.

Put both sides or arugments out in the open let the people decide which to believe. Dont favor one or the other, teach kids to think for themselves and not just to memorize data for one test or another.

[Bucko]

I would like to add something further here in response to this statement. I had the opportunity today to talk to a couple of people about this topic, one is a history professor and the other is a JHS/HS Social Studies teacher.
You may be surprised to learn that there are many younger kids here in Japan today that have no knowledge that Japan even fought a war with the US.
It is no myth that they are in the dark about what happened, sure they learn about Hiroshima and Nagasaki but they are taught nothing about any of the atrocities that were committed.

Oh please. It's basically a personality trait of a history teacher to say that young people don't know about history. I know they all said that back when I was at school. And how young are these "younger kids" anyway? It's possible that they're at the stage of not learning it. Or it possible that they're just plain uninterested in it.

Have you ever read a Japanese school history text book? The ones I've read have it written in there clear as crystal. I wish I still had the junior high history textbook that was given to me to help me practice Japanese. However you can go to any bookstore and find where all the textbooks are, just pick up any random history text that is based on modern Japanese history and you'll see a nice big writeup on all the main events in WWII, including Nanking.

Also, a few months ago I went to the Hiroshima Peace Museum, and one of the first things you read as you walk in is about the Nanking Incident. It states in big bold letters (in Japanese) that Chinese were being massacred by the Japanese, and that between tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands were killed. Thousands of schoolkids go to this museum every month and read this information.

Anyway, like in any country, there are people who are just plain uninterested in this stuff. It's irrevelant to them. But to claim that the Japanese population in general does not know about these incidents is either a lie, or being said by someone who's been fed propaganda.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hi Bucko,

I am very interested, wish we could buy the text books overhere in Holland, but then in English.
You mentioned the Hiroshima Peace Museum, do you know that they have a very nice website? http://serv.peace.hiroshima-cu.ac.jp/English/


Hi Obeika,
By the way, also in the Netherlands our schools they only learn a lot about WWII in Europe, and as little as possible about the other side of the world during that war. People in general are far more interested in what is close to them

[pipokun]

I would like to add something further here in response to this statement. I had the opportunity today to talk to a couple of people about this topic, one is a history professor and the other is a JHS/HS Social Studies teacher.
You may be surprised to learn that there are many younger kids here in Japan today that have no knowledge that Japan even fought a war with the US.
It is no myth that they are in the dark about what happened, sure they learn about Hiroshima and Nagasaki but they are taught nothing about any of the atrocities that were committed.
...


Bring the teachers here. He/she should have said that many younger kids in their schools.
But it is you who are lying here, because in Okinawa there are tons of (sorry for the adjective) peace education.

No matter how loud the teachers would be, you cannot find any evidence that the military forced to commited suicide, but the people who killed the victims were nothing but fanatic locals killed their families or neighbours. But I cannot jugde the fanatism right/wrong then from the present point of views.
This case is very similar to the confort woman issue, some activists claim that there had been forced suicide by military in a broader sense of meaning.


何も知らないなんて言うのは、いくらなんでも言いすぎ ですよ。
（これくらいの日本語でしたら理解できますか？）


Off-topic
Elizabeth van Kampen, how much Dutch young studnets know about the post-war Idonesia, I mean, about the independence. Do you think it was right that so many Indonesian were killed. No matter how many you have good friends there, it is also a fact that it has been highly controversial issue in your country when Indonesia was independent form your country.
Off-topic #2
If you have time to read tens of thoudands of documents in your country, just try to find the infamous Unit 731. So far, many activists are eager to find the truth, but they cannot find demonised documents at all.

[KirinMan]

Bring the teachers here. He/she should have said that many younger kids in their schools.
But it is you who are lying here, because in Okinawa there are tons of (sorry for the adjective) peace education.


Now then you could have asked for clarification, I've written about the topic of Heiwa Gakkshu on other topics and you commented about it as well so you know darn well that I am not refering to Okinawan kids.

Next time ask for clarification before calling someone a liar. You lost a hell of a lot of respect that I once had for you by resorting to name calling, to say the least I am disappointed.

I take offense at the insult

Oh and if you didnt know I live in Japan so with regards to bringing the teacher here....well you figure that one out.

No matter how loud the teachers would be, you cannot find any evidence that the military forced to commited suicide,

No comment, I've said more than enough about this one. You either believe or you dont, and your choice is obvious.

何も知らないなんて言うのは、いくらなんでも言いすぎ ですよ。
（これくらいの日本語でしたら理解できますか？）
Next and if I am not mistaken posting in Japanese without providing a translation in English is frowned upon on this board unless the post is in the learning Japanese fora.

Oh please. It's basically a personality trait of a history teacher to say that young people don't know about history. I know they all said that back when I was at school. And how young are these "younger kids" anyway? It's possible that they're at the stage of not learning it. Or it possible that they're just plain uninterested in it.


I'm sorry but I trust their thoughts and ideas on this issue more than yours plus I have a JHS social studies textbook, it wasnt there. Different areas have different texts. Wrong here, it has nothing to do with whether they study or not. They are not taught it.

Here in Okinawa there is more exposure because of the bases and the Battle. It does get studied here, I've written about that one before. I do not need to repeat it again and again.

Going to the peace memorials is different than what some child is taught in a classroom you should know that.

that Chinese were being massacred by the Japanese, and that between tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands were killed.
I would love to see where that is written. If you have a picture I would appreciate you sharing it here to show to another person that posts here.

[Bucko]

plus I have a JHS social studies textbook, it wasnt there

What's your point? Maybe WWII wasn't a focus of that particular textbook?? Many of my social studies textbooks from school never mentioned the War either. It just depends on the focus of the textbook.

I'll try and attach the picture I took at the Hiroshima Peace Museum...

http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn4365ih4.jpg

That's a big poster about 100 x 70cm that's right at the front entrance of the museum.

Ahh, sorry that picture comes out horizontally. The English is a direct translation from the Japanese too, so no cries about how the English version might be different.

[pipokun]

Now then you could have asked for clarification, I've written about the topic of Heiwa Gakkshu on other topics and you commented about it as well so you know darn well that I am not refering to Okinawan kids.
Next time ask for clarification before calling someone a liar. You lost a hell of a lot of respect that I once had for you by resorting to name calling, to say the least I am disappointed.
...


As this is a forum to discuss, I don't care if you are offended. But you missed your point that your favorite heiwa gakushu is not only thing in Okinawa. "You don't know somewhere else" is totally different from "there is nothing done". And I have repeatedly said, mainly to the former admin, about the education before you registered here after I saw lots of posts, something like Japan did nothing.

[4321go]

I would love to see where that is written. If you have a picture I would appreciate you sharing it here to show to another person that posts here.
If you are lazy enough...you can ask anybody to do anything for you.
of course , if you choose blind,nobody can regain your sight

[KirinMan]

As this is a forum to discuss, I don't care if you are offended. ............. And I have repeatedly said, mainly to the former admin, about the education before you registered here after I saw lots of posts, something like Japan did nothing.

First off, as you know there are rules on this forum about insulting people, when I "insulted" another member here I was given a strict warning about watching the rules and adhering to the rules and forum ettiquite. Maybe you havent noticed before but people here get warnings or in worst case scenarios get banned, when it is reported. If you are fine with that, that's up to you. I have refrained from posting anything rude in reply to you, it doesnt mean I cant, it just means that I choose not to, that is your choice as well.

I have no idea what you wrote to a "former" admin here, however you know very well that I talked about this on another thread with you before. To refresh your memory a bit you even asked me to post it on the Japanese language part of this forum as well.

If you are lazy enough...you can ask anybody to do anything for
you.
of course , if you choose blind,nobody can regain your sight


It's not a matter of being lazy its a matter of location.

I'll try and attach the picture I took at the Hiroshima Peace Museum...
http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?i...scn4365ih4.jpg

Thank you, unfortunately it isnt definitive, but it is heartening to see at least that the Chinese estimates, I know that sounds crass, are included as well once again thanks for sharing. Do you mind if I use this on another thread?

[KirinMan]

What's your point? Maybe WWII wasn't a focus of that particular textbook?? Many of my social studies textbooks from school never mentioned the War either. It just depends on the focus of the textbook.

That's the point, different textbooks are used throughout Japan. So depending on the location that a child is studying they may or may not, learn about the history surrounding WWII.

I never made a blanket comment that it's everyone mind you, that there are children in Japan that dont know about it. To me at least it is an extremely important part of the history of Japan, everyone should learn about it at least to understand with more clarity the reasons why Japan curently has diplomatic problems with China, Korea and other countries in the region as well. Plus it would help give a better insight into why the American's have bases here in Japan as well.

I have seen and heard kids from Kyushu come here to Okinawa for their school trips and ask in all sincerity why are there bases here, and why was there a battle here. Their first introduction to the war was when they visited the Peace Memorial at Mabuni, and other locations as well. It was an eye opener.

If things keep on going as they are and people stop questioning the material used for education in schools the issues from WWII will stop being discussed and somewhere in the future, ...............heaven forbid that happens.

[pipokun]

I never made a blanket comment that it's everyone mind you, that there are children in Japan that dont know about it.
You did here.
There have been a number of occasions that they have come home and told me stories about how their teachers glossed over topics such as Pearl Harbor and made the US out to be the instigator of the events that lead up to WWII. There are a number of other examples I could share as well.
What do you call this post of yours?

OK, tell me why you came to believe something like your favorite heiwa gakushu is only thing in Okinawa. Isn't it because you don't know anywhere else?
I used to find it offensive that some people said "Japan did nothing", but not now, I just think they are similar to the liberal head here.

[KirinMan]

FYI you are taking that statement out of context and using it here. You know very well that it was in reference to my kids and their teachers here in Okinawa.

[pipokun]

I would like to add something further here in response to this statement. I had the opportunity today to talk to a couple of people about this topic, one is a history professor and the other is a JHS/HS Social Studies teacher.
You may be surprised to learn that there are many younger kids here in Japan today that have no knowledge that Japan even fought a war with the US.
It is no myth that they are in the dark about what happened, sure they learn about Hiroshima and Nagasaki but they are taught nothing about any of the atrocities that were committed.

OK, this is what you said in this thread.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Jeebs, I'm away for a few weeks and the whole world blows up! I've read this entire thread and am not sure what people are even arguing. That the Okinawans were coerced into mass suicide by the Japanese military?

WHY DOES WAR happen?
The Causes of War by Geoffrey Blainey (http://www.amazon.com/Causes-War-Geoffrey-Blainey/dp/0029035910/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-6934309-5744823?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183278709&sr=8-2)
The Causes of Wars by Michael Howard (http://www.amazon.com/Causes-War-Revised-Enlarged/dp/067410417X/ref=pd_bbs_3/002-6934309-5744823?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183278709&sr=8-3)
On the Origins of War and the Preservation of Peace by Donald Kagan (http://www.amazon.com/Origins-War-Preservation-Peace/dp/0385423756/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6934309-5744823?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183278739&sr=8-1)
Greater minds than ours have pondered this.


what was american taught from history in school?
NOTHING
Ummm, no, it's just that most Americans don't remember what they learned in history. As an historian who actually taught two years of U.S. history, I can say that American students do actually learn history.

Obeika, you might want to reconsider your statement about suicide being the "cowards way out" when talking in relation to other cultures and other times. In Japan at that time, suicide was considered the most noble way to right your wrongs. Considering this culture, I can understand why it would be a fact that the soldiers gave the civilians grenades to suicide with.
I have to agree with you.

I must say that the attitude towards suicide in Western cultures and Japanese culture vary greatly. The Romans often committed suicide after military disasters, but not necessarily because of a sense of duty. Honor did play a part (Cato's suicide to prevent Caesar from showing him clemency was part honor, part snubbing Caesar). But there were a ton of minute little implications that really set the two apart.

As for <i>kamikaze</i>-style attacks and fighting to the last man, there definitely <i>is</i> a Western tradition of not surrendering, but it isn't universal, and mostly a personal choice on behalf of the units fighting to the last man. It is not something based on honor or duty, but more of a refusal to bend to another's will, ultimately being an expression of individuality. Westerners usually have the concept of living to fight another day, but when cornered, they have an occasional tendency to "come home with their shield or on it."

This reckless disregard for one's own life and eagerness to "die for one's country" helped to lose the war for Japan. Patton admonished his troops that "nobody ever won a war by dying for his country, but by making the other poor guy die for his." At Iwo Jima, for example, the Japanese troops who committed suicide or charged machine-gun nests recklessly pretty-much did the Marines' job for them.

Personnel are just as valuable as ordinance, materiel, and position, in warfare. If you don't have the personnel, you can't do anything with the other three. The Japanese <i>bushido</i> ideology didn't leave much room for a more practical understanding of warfare. They would over come their opponents because their enemy was barbaric, while they were civilized and honorable, and if they failed, it was because they didn't fight hard enough or weren't honorable enough, and were obligated to end their lives rather than learn from defeat.

A lot of this goes back to the whole "saving face" concept that is so prevalent in Japanese society.

That being said, I'll move on.

I think you'll find that Westerners know more about Hiroshima and Nagasaki than incidents of Japanese brutalisation.
Actually, you are dead-on here. A vast number of Americans believe that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were unforgivable crimes and are still angry that we did it. But only about an eighth of us know about Nanking or Dresden, or any other atrocities (with the exception of the Holocaust, that is).

I would dispute that. From my experience, the whole idea about Japanese people being in the dark about their WWII history is a myth. They are all taught about the atrocities at school, and it's frequently talked about in the mass media. The fact that people are trying to CHANGE the current textbooks would tell you that the CURRENT ones all talk about all these incidents.
They talk about it, but I still think that they down-play it severely.

and US force should get out from Okinawa
I'll remember that when a few million Chinese reds invade Taiwan and try to grab dominancy in the Western Pacific, at your expense as well as ours.

it is as same as hiroshima, nagasaki...
at first ,it is true that american dropped a-bomd.
why this point is not made as big . Did they forget it?
Oh, it is made over here. There are millions of Americans who feel that Truman is a war criminal for dropping the bomb. As if Operation Downfall really would have been a better option.

And in other news...

Guys, can we please keep cooler heads? Man, it's a forum, and it is on t3h 1nt4rw3bbz0rz. I know the internet is SERIOUS BUSINESS but try not to get so darn infuriated with each other. (And yes, I should practice what I preach, that's why I take breaks from here every so-often.)

[KirinMan]

Like I wrote somewhere previously here, the Okinawan people are not going to idly sit by and let this go unchallenged. Yesterday in Okinawa there was a prefectural wide gathering of over 110,000 people protesting these proposed changes.
http://www.mainichi-msn.co.jp/today/news/images/20070930k0000m040013000p_size6.jpg
沖縄：集団自決で検定意見撤回求め県民大会　１１万人 参加
(http://www.mainichi-msn.co.jp/today/news/20070930k0000m040064000c.html)

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Obeika,

Glad to see you back!
Like to tell you, that I really admire the people from Okinawa, because from experience I know that it needs lots of courage to tell the truth about what truly happened 62 years ago.
Governments prefer to change history here and there, to make it all look better and horrible than it really was.

Bravo for the people from Okinawa!!

Sorry,
I mean; to make it look less horrible that it really was.
Forgot to type "less"

[KirinMan]

Obeika,
Glad to see you back!
Like to tell you, that I really admire the people from Okinawa, because from experience I know that it needs lots of courage to tell the truth about what truly happened 62 years ago.
Governments prefer to change history here and there, to make it all look better and horrible than it really was.
Bravo for the people from Okinawa!!
Sorry,
I mean; to make it look less horrible that it really was.
Forgot to type "less"
Thank you.:wave:
It was amazing the speed with which this was pulled off as well. The people here want to make sure that the government hears their voice.
The following article was published by Reuters (Tokyo)
about the peaceful demonstration Japanese rally over 1945 Okinawa suicide teaching (http://uk.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUKT8497020070929)
More than 100,000 people gathered in Okinawa on Saturday to urge the government to retract its order that publishers cut schoolbook references to the Japanese army forcing civilians to commit suicide during the 1945 Battle of Okinawa.
The rally was the largest held on the southern island since it was returned to Japan by the United States in 1972, Kyodo News quoted the organizers as saying.
The Battle of Okinawa left some 200,000 dead including many Okinawan civilians, often entire families, who committed suicide rather than surrender to Americans.
Some eyewitness accounts say they did so on the orders of Japanese soldiers, but conservative historians have called into question those accounts, arguing that the suicides were voluntary.
In March, the education ministry ordered publishers of high school textbooks to modify their descriptions of the suicides, a move that outraged many Okinawans and prompted local assemblies as well as prefectural lawmakers to adopt resolutions


ABC News On line (http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/09/29/2047083.htm?section=world)

Radio Netherlands (http://www.radionetherlands.nl/news/international/5454552/Demonstration-in-Japan-against-rewriting)

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7020335.stm)

The world is watching too!

[pipokun]

I am really scared that all media just use the organiser's announcement.

■イベント名：MAGMA／マグマ
■日程／会場：●2007年5月26日（土）
　　　　　　　　沖縄県宜野湾市海浜公園屋外劇場（最 大収容人数5,000人）
http://www.alpha-g.ne.jp/bulletin+index.page+article+storyid+2485.htm
A rock festival, MAGMA
Maximum capacity: 5000

The official site of the park
http://www.city.ginowan.okinawa.jp/2556/2600/2639/29430.html

[KirinMan]

I am really scared that all media just use the organiser's announcement.
So what's the point you are trying to make this time?

[caster51]

http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/ptravel/56000/20070930119115496668867700.jpg

it was faked.:blush:

let's investigate the history correct ...??

I hope so..

http://ca.c.yimg.jp/news/20071001094708/img.news.yahoo.co.jp/images/20071001/ryu/20070930-00000016-ryu-oki-thum-000.jpg

10% of okinawan there?

I read many Okinawan blog.
they say...
it seems okinawa is a good target of anti-.OO for commies.

[Ewok85]

Here's caster and its all lies and commie propaganda rants ;)

[KirinMan]

http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/ptravel/56000/20070930119115496668867700.jpg
it was faked.:blush:
let's investigate the history correct ...??
I hope so..
http://ca.c.yimg.jp/news/20071001094708/img.news.yahoo.co.jp/images/20071001/ryu/20070930-00000016-ryu-oki-thum-000.jpg
10% of okinawan there?
I read many Okinawan blog.
they say...
it seems okinawa is a good target of anti-.OO for commies.
caster you have underestimated the will of the Okinawan people in this issue.

Answer this for me since you seem to know so much; "Since it was illegal for regular citizens to possess any types of weapons here in Okinawa during WWII who gave them the hand grenades in the first place?

After you answer that one, I have another question for you.:wave:

[caster51]

Answer this for me since you seem to know so much; "Since it was illegal for regular citizens to possess any types of weapons here in Okinawa during WWII who gave them the hand grenades in the first place?
most ppl demanded hand grenades to kill themselves
and hand grenades would be given as last means..
however it has nothing to do with "forced "

自決」に使われた道具は、カミソリ、ナタ、縄、手榴弾 、鍬、鎌、砲弾、包丁、猫いらず、青酸カリ等の毒薬(� _薬を含む)、注射、岩石、材木など、身の回りにあった あらゆるものが凶器となっている

indeed, only hand grenades was not methods to kill themselves.
however it was the easiest one

caster you have underestimated the will of the Okinawan people in this issue

an okinawan blog,
沖縄には「県民大会」を冷ややかな目で見ている物言わ ぬ多くの県民がいることを忘れてはいけない。

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/taezaki160925/e/2c0869fca89b26b4806ed423c84206c8

[KirinMan]

most ppl demanded hand grenades to kill themselves
and hand grenades would be given as last means..
however it has nothing to do with "forced "

Now where did you get this information from?
Since for over 60 years this has never been an issue it appears to me at least that it has been accepted as fact by not only Japanese scholars but the rest of the world as well.
What evidence can you produce to convince anyone that it didnt happen?

沖縄には「県民大会」を冷ややかな目で見ている物言わ ぬ多くの県民がいることを忘れてはいけない。
So one person in the prefecture was cool to the demonstration? So is this the extent of your evidence that the suicides were not forced?

I think you need to do better than that......:okashii:

[pipokun]

http://www.jrcl.org/schedule.htm

Of course, I totally agree with the free speech, even if they belong to the infamous far-left orgainsation.
Obeika, just ask your families or neighbors how many people in Okinawa support them.

[KirinMan]

http://www.jrcl.org/schedule.htm
Of course, I totally agree with the free speech, even if they belong to the infamous far-left orgainsation.
Obeika, just ask your families or neighbors how many people in Okinawa support them.

I know of well over 110,000 people that support NOT changing the textbooks. And in this case that is all that matters to me.:wave:

[caster51]

http://upjo.com/up2/data/20070927.jpg
high school kids were mobilized by commies
they are like communists
kids were forced to participate in....
I think kids were usful for them

http://upjo.com/up2/data/20070927_2.jpg
poster for teachers

okinawan BBS
http://okinawa.machi.to/bbs/read.pl?BBS=okinawa&KEY=1187884896
http://okinawa.machi.to/bbs/read.pl?BBS=okinawa&KEY=1190333828
normal okinawan are considering they are shame...:wave:

2007/08/24(金) 08:59:30 ID:cK2JkAKk [ proxy3101.docomo.ne.jp ]
まぁ、お得意の水増し主催者発表でお茶を濁し、各テレビ局が協力して放映！
バカアナがヒステリックに的外れなコメントをして終了！

沖縄タイムスに米軍の空中給油機とか墜ちねーかな。
拍手する人、多いと思うぞー。:wave:

[Ewok85]

Well I think its time I ignore caster for good. Those posters state very, very clearly what the cause is (opposing the text books) and I'm afraid you are just eleven short of a dozen mate.

Oooh, the commies are coming! Reds under your bed! Wooooo!

[caster51]

:at least, The number of people of participants was fabricated so much.:blush:



Kurara report
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=zh-TXoeK1xM
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=uzwQr0FGSlg

Indeed, I think he told a truth.
again ,however it had nothing to do with "forced"
if this is a forced thing, the education, ideology and religion would be also forced things

[KirinMan]

:at least, The number of people of participants was fabricated so much.:blush:

Caster you really are pulling at straws here. I live here, I know what I saw, you dont.:okashii:

high school kids were mobilized by commies
they are like communists
kids were forced to participate in....
I think kids were usful for them

Are you the Japanese version of McCarthy? Seeing commies under every rock and behind every door?:bikkuri::love:

To use this kind of comment to try to explain away a fact comes across to me as someone who just cant see their hand in front of their face.

There is no reasoning with you. I just hope you arent a politician.

[junjunforever]

just saw an interview on the TV today. Three or four Japanese soldiers would go into every house every night, and try to brainwash the civilians to kill themselves before the americans came. One of such brainwashed person, hugged his child, said sorry, and killed his family with his own hand.

This was from an interview with a lady over 100 years old. Of course, caster and co. will say that she is a liar and nobody should listen to her.

And wallah. We have not only chinese and koreans fighting against japanese textbooks, but okinawans as well. What do the three have in common? They were victims of japanese imperial government, and went through history that japanese government wish to hide.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Maybe...caster and co feel a sort of embarrissing about the Japanese war crimes?

To me it looks like what ostriches do if they don't want to see something,that everybody else does see. They are hiding their heads in the sand, or so it seems.

But caster, I don't feel that you are responsable for the war crimes commited 62 years ago. Those who commited all those war crimes are/were the quilty ones.
If you deny all those war crimes than there can't be an understanding from both sides about what really happened during WWII.
We have to be honest about history and that has to come from both sides.

It is very brave from the people of Okinawa to tell the truth at very last!

[pipokun]

Probably the greatest difference in the four or five counties/areas in the East Asia, Okinawa, China, Taiwan and Koreas would be non-Japanese can get a teaching positon in a national university even if he conducts his research, the Okinawa's independece from Japan.
I forget how many times professors apologised to grandma in an Asian country.
But still, it is scared that most media use the data only from the organiser and the local police did not say anything in Okinawa. Usually police announces the number of participants in a rock festival, temples/shrines around the New Year, or demonstrations.

Anyways, it is highly likely that the stupid number, 110000, would ruin the great debate in Japan.

*snip*
I don't think it is McCarthyism that rules in Okinawa, but it is just the blood-ruled society. No matter how loud anti-US base activist you are, you can find relatives who get money from the base. Then you turn to be silent.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Simple doubt
"The Japanese armed forces forced suicide."
If it is a fact,
What is profit of the Japanese armed forces?

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hiroyuki N,
Maybe there was a Japanese propaganda telling the people from Okinawa that it would be better to kill themselves than to fall in hands of those "barbaric" Americans?

Okinawa was a real tragedy. 107.539 Japanese soldiers died. 12.000 American soldiers died. And over 80.000 citizens died.

My questions are: Were there many Japanese people living on the Okinawa island?
Were the people from Okinawa pro or anti-Japan during WWII?

History should be honest, none of us should take out some bad events to make "our" history look better. Our governments should know better than that. This also counts for the Japanese government of course.

[KirinMan]

Probably the greatest difference in the four or five counties/areas in the East Asia, Okinawa, China, Taiwan and Koreas would be non-Japanese can get a teaching positon in a national university even if he conducts his research, the Okinawa's independece from Japan.

Pipokun....FYI Okinawa has been a part of Japan since the 1800's. Do I need to put a link here with the "history" of Japan here to prove my point?

Okinawa was and still is a prefecture of Japan during and after WWII.

Anyways, it is highly likely that the stupid number, 110000, would ruin the great debate in Japan.

Stupid number?....Then pray tell why has the Japanese goverment agreed to review this issue, and why have the publishing companies also agreed to change the texts back to include the previously accepted information?


I don't think it is McCarthyism that rules in Okinawa, but it is just the blood-ruled society. No matter how loud anti-US base activist you are, you can find relatives who get money from the base. Then you turn to be silent.
Nothing to do with the topic at hand, just another attempt by you to throw a red herring into the discussion to take it off topic. This topic is about the proposed changes to the textbooks and has nothing to do with base issues.

Simple doubt
"The Japanese armed forces forced suicide."
If it is a fact,
What is profit of the Japanese armed forces?

Dying for the Emperor.....and as a "true" Japanese of that era, never admitting defeat, and if faced with defeat, committing suicide to attone for not fulfilling ones duty to the Emperor. Plain and simple.

Or another way of looking at it, running away when the battle was lost, and not facing the "shame" of defeat.

[KirinMan]

My questions are: Were there many Japanese people living on the Okinawa island?
Were the people from Okinawa pro or anti-Japan during WWII?

Elizabeth Okinawa was a part of Japan, and had been since around 1870 or so, give or take a few years. So all Okinawan's were "Japanese" at the time, however they were looked down towards and serverly discriminated against because of their being "different" from mainland Japanese. They were not totally accepted as being "equal" to Japanese from mainland.

The people of Okinawa had NO choice in the matter of being pro or anti Japanese. The ones that the Japanese Imperial Army thought were "anti" Japanese were executed. That is also a fact.

Okinawan people were forbidden from speaking their local dialect and also forbidden from practicing anything from their culture. People who spoke the local dialect were assasinated as spies. That is a fact as well.

Funny thing about it though is after the war was over and during the "clean up" operations by the US Military many Japanese from the Imperial Army deserted and tried to hide themselves amongst the local Okinawan refugees.

They were weeded out from the "true" Okinawan's by people speaking to them in the local dialect, and when they couldnt understand or didnt follow the directions given in the local dialect were taken as Japanese POW's.

One of the things they outlawed came back and bit them in the arse. Talk about poetic justice.

[pipokun]

Pipokun....FYI Okinawa has been a part of Japan since the 1800's. Do I need to put a link here with the "history" of Japan here to prove my point?
...

Thank you for your info, but I know. So I used the word, area.

Stupid number?....Then pray tell why has the Japanese goverment agreed to review this issue, and why have the publishing companies also agreed to change the texts back to include the previously accepted information?
I don't think the history should not be changed by the "feeling". So I said it was really scared.

*snip2*
So tell me what McCarthy has to do with this topic. As I thought he was irrelevant here, I used *snip*.

[KirinMan]

Thank you for your info, but I know. So I used the word, area.
I don't think the history should not be changed by the "feeling". So I said it was really scared.
*snip2*
So tell me what McCarthy has to do with this topic. As I thought he was irrelevant here, I used *snip*.
History isnt being changed, facts are the facts, it's just the previous Japanese administration tried to rewrite it, and got it's fingers caught in the cookie jar.

McCarthy is a figure of speach, meaning that whomever always claims that it is because of communists this or communists that are seeing them behind every corner like McCarthy did many years ago. Reread the previous threads and you will know what and who I am refering to.

Latily it isnt a feeling it is a fact, that is what you what changed not me.

Even though you used the word area you refered to Okinawa as a different country, that is a fact as well, and on that you were wrong, I just pointed it out to you that's all, no big deal

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Thank you Obeika,

So before 1870, Okinawa was an independent island, did not belong to Japan.
I knew that their culture was a little different from the Japanese.

I have really tried very hard to understand the Japanese in general. I have two Japanese friends, both ladies are in their sixties. But maybe it is impossible to become friends with Japanese men.

pipokun and caster lets us foreigners look in the mirror of our countries past historries. I have given honest answers about the wrongs in the past of my country in Indonesia.
Yet nor caster nor pipokun can simply admit: "Yes my country has been wrong during WWII".

Each time I notice that we can't get open and friendly discussions, it is always the same; WE are the liars.

[Ewok85]

Oh please, just because you call Okinawa part of Japan doesn't make the people instantly Japanese after a generation or two of annexation - they had their own language which was still around in the 1940's - doesn't that say something about them not being "Japanese" but uniquely "Okinawan".

[pipokun]

Even though you used the word area you refered to Okinawa as a different country, that is a fact as well, and on that you were wrong, I just pointed it out to you that's all, no big deal

You are totally wrong. I didn't say Okinawa was a different country like the Chinese professor in Ryukyu Uni. junjunforever, he/she brought up the question, "What do the three have in common"?
And of course I know not all Japanese in Okinawa do not support the lefy agitators.

Elizabeth van Kampen
I have really tried very hard to understand the Japanese in general. I have two Japanese friends, both ladies are in their sixties. But maybe it is impossible to become friends with Japanese men.
pipokun and caster lets us foreigners look in the mirror of our countries past historries. I have given honest answers about the wrongs in the past of my country in Indonesia.
Yet nor caster nor pipokun can simply admit: "Yes my country has been wrong during WWII".
What an easy generalisation...
Don't worry that I don't have any generalisation.

I know the government is totally different from you. And I am just answering your statement that Japanese people do not know anything or Japan did nothing about the war. You may claim that Japan is the ultra-militaristic country, but Obeika, probably an American, is the good example who peacefully lives in Japan now.

*snip for Obeika*
Thanks, but no need to explain McCarthy. In the context of Okinawa, the US tried to brainwash the people and conducted the red purge, but it is the people who chose the return to Japan.

[KirinMan]

You are totally wrong. I didn't say Okinawa was a different country like the Chinese professor in Ryukyu Uni. junjunforever, he/she brought up the question, "What do the three have in common"?

Im wrong? Read what you wrote, :okashii: You wrote it not me.
Probably the greatest difference in the four or five counties/areas in the East Asia, Okinawa, China, Taiwan and Koreas would be non-Japanese can get a teaching positon in a national university even if he conducts his research, the Okinawa's independece from Japan.


And that has nothing to do with the rewriting history textbooks either. However your comment is borderline racist in my opinion. I know what you are trying to infer here and you are wrong.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that because it may be possible that a non-Japanese prof is teaching these outlandish ideas that the Japanese Imperial Army forced suicides that the people have been brainwashed into believing it to be fact, when you believe it is fiction. Right?

[KirinMan]

Okinawa may defeat textbook censorship (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20071003a1.html)
Notice the word censorship here and just to refresh anyones memories here about what exactly censorship means,
First the word censoring;
A person authorized to examine books, films, or other material and to remove or suppress what is considered morally, politically, or otherwise objectionable.
An official, as in the armed forces, who examines personal mail and official dispatches to remove information considered secret or a risk to security.

Now the word censorship;
the act or practice of censoring.
Now then, why use the word censorship? If the textbooks were incorrect in the first place the proper word that might be used is revision.
Censorship makes me at least think of supression of accurate information.
Although Tokai said he wants to quell Okinawa's anger, he earlier indicated it would be difficult to retract the instruction because it would be perceived as "intervention by politics into textbook screenings."
But he did not comment on whether politics played a role in the ministry's March instruction that publishers rewrite references on the mass suicides and mass murder-suicides of civilians in Okinawa.


However this quote from the article bothers me, he openly states the difficulty in perception because of politics. Yet he cant open his mouth and admit that it was politics in the first place that caused this uproar.
But then that is typically Japanese to me, not being able to openly admit when a mistake has been made, without it causing shame to everyone involved in the process.

This statement in italics here is my opinion and observation here, whether people here agree or not that is their choice, I am not going to discuss or comment to any replies about this statement here. Thanks for understanding.

[caster51]

my prefecture was also independent country before 1600:cool:
Aizu wakamatsu was conquered by J-gorven..

the US tried to brainwash the people and conducted the red purge, but it is the people who chose the return to Japan.

okinawan times started as U.S propaganda newspaper.

BTW
I agree with okinawa independence
it will be a good chance to take U.S force out from Okinawa.

Yaeyama of okinawa pre. is not okinawans..
they have an another histoty

Kurara report
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=zh-TXoeK1xM
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=uzwQr0FGSlg

[caster51]

Okinawa independence:cool:
http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/200710/03/37/a0029437_20465955.jpg

Souka cult..
http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/200710/03/37/a0029437_2056560.jpg

labor union..
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=8xTC8Ok4hkc

the problem is that there are ppl who tell loud " there were so many ppls like 110,000" though the number is not the probrem:blush:

[KirinMan]

Caster what does your post have to do with the topic?:okashii:

[pipokun]

Im wrong? Read what you wrote, :okashii: You wrote it not me.
And that has nothing to do with the rewriting history textbooks either. However your comment is borderline racist in my opinion. I know what you are trying to infer here and you are wrong.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that because it may be possible that a non-Japanese prof is teaching these outlandish ideas that the Japanese Imperial Army forced suicides that the people have been brainwashed into believing it to be fact, when you believe it is fiction. Right?

I do not understand what you are talking about.
PRC, N/S Korea is a country, though Japan does not have diplomatic relations with the DPRK...
Okinawa is an area, not a country at all. And I know each island in Okinawa claim their uniqueness like the one in Kansai, Kobe, Osaka, Kyoto, and Nara.
But Taiwan is a bit difficult. Just go to threads something like "Taiwan is the part of China" or "Taiwan is an idependent country".

But then that is typically Japanese to me, not being able to openly admit when a mistake has been made, without it causing shame to everyone involved in the process.
Just bring the source, the military order, if you are not a daydreamer. And don't worry I have my English-English dictionary installed in my computer.
Your argument is exactly the same in the one as in your favorit confort woman issue.

Nobody denys the military brothel or the mass-suicide in this topic, but...

[KirinMan]

Japan is never guilty of anything to you guys. It has become a beat around the bush listen to your red herrings.


You know in a way I dont blame you for not accepting it, it was your teachers fault while you were in JHS and HS for not educating you about the facts about WWII and Japan's involvement in it. I actually feel sorry and have sympathy for you.

It isnt your fault. Blame your teachers for not learning about it.

Nice attempt at trying to pull the topic off again. But I am not replying anymore to either of yours or casters ludicrous thoughts and opinions that this didnt happen.

You guys lost it with me when you tried to challenge the fact that over 110,000 Japanese people protested against this. You both now come across to me as being discrminatory people in your beliefs.

It was Japanese people that protested, YOUR people, YOUR fellow country men and women. Yet you refuse to believe. I actually feel pity.

[caster51]

It isnt your fault. Blame your teachers for not learning about it.
LOL. I was taught. but I might drop out.

You guys lost it with me when you tried to challenge the fact that over 110,000 Japanese people protested against this.
oh really?
a major newspaper expose that was faked.:blush:

It was Japanese people that protested, YOUR people, YOUR fellow country men and women. Yet you refuse to believe. I actually feel pity

what are you talking?
issue of protest(beliveing) and fact are defferent problem..
it is not a political and emotional problem.
now they are demanding okinawan stipulations.
that is , if okinawan does not want..., it would not be permitted.

Caster what does your post have to do with the topic?
It is their true colors
btw obeika,can you understand Japanese language?
if you can, you would understand this.
this is a also fact
Kurara report
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=zh-TXoeK1xM
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=uzwQr0FGSlg

[junjunforever]

The reason okinawa refuses the textbook change is simple.


Okinawaians have been segregated and have been a target of racism as long as anyone can remember. Unlike other prefactures, it has its own distinguished history and a sense of unity. THe racism agaisnt okinawans have died out maybe only a decade or two ago.

Everyone knows Amuro Namie was Okinawaian. Why were Okianawa people so proud of her? Because they had long history of being discrimianted by the mainland Japanese. They were happy that after a long time, such a popstar could come out of their culture and uphold their culture, much like how japanese feel about Ichiro.

Again, let me reitereate. THIS IS NOTHING NEW. Japanese government and caster will attack asians and okinawans with the dumbest arguments. Youtube clips of some nameless person hating China, or some extreme protestors from Okinawa wanting to rebel.

Blabbering my caster and co do not have anything to do with the history at hand. It is common sense. Japan have series of mass suicide on record during WW2. The schools in tokyo was blasting through the speakers that everyone should die for the emperor. Imperial government and army forced their racist and wrong ideals on civilians, and many civilians were casualties from that.

The bottom line is, Japan is trying to change the history.

Again.

[pipokun]

Do you know, Obeika, news shows of TV Asahi, have just started claiming something like...
"Who cares the number, 110,000 or 20,000, the people's feeling is more important"
I know the exaggeration happens quite often esp., in the politicized issues, so I don't take the number seriously, but the media who just trumpeted this is the problem I really concern here.

You know in a way I dont blame you for not accepting it, it was your teachers fault while you were in JHS and HS for not educating you about the facts about WWII
The teachers were quite liberal anti-national flag and anthem, and WWII loving ones.
A music teacher once said, "I have to teach you Kimigayo".
It was quite an eye-opener that my friends from Okinawa in the college told me about the far-left activists in Okinawa.

It was Japanese people that protested, YOUR people, YOUR fellow country men and women. Yet you refuse to believe. I actually feel pity.
Refused to believe? Who?
You should use the word, some people, for it seems to me that YOUR people include all people in Okinawa.

Calling someone a racist is not a good idea, even if you believe in what you may call the world citizen, multiculturalism, or whatever you like.

[caster51]

Everyone knows Amuro Namie was Okinawaian. Why were Okianawa people so proud of her?
:blush:
I like her.
I think most japanese is proud of her.

Aizu ppl was the more discriminated than okinawan.

[caster51]

Japanese government and caster will attack asians and okinawans with the dumbest arguments. Youtube clips of some nameless person hating China, or some extreme protestors from Okinawa wanting to rebel.

wow , why do I hate okinawan?
I have many okinawan friends
I said many times in this topic ' okinawan fought until last at that time
I am proud of okinawan.
I Knew that how they fought with miserable and pitiful through "Minoru ota's message"
my hope is as same as ota's one.
indeed, I dont want okinawan to be like the Korean

I think this is a relevance
there were many people in okinaw who committed suicide for the reasons that the disgrace by enemy would not be accepted as traditional things

so is at saipan , banzai cliff

[KirinMan]

You know what this discussion is no longer about textbook revison to you guys.

You are attempting to get people here to think or believe that;

First off that over 110,000 Okinawan people didnt participate in the protest
Which my the way is wrong, you guys dont want to face the fact that it was possible. It happened, there are just too many videos and pictures to dispute it. You are either blind to facts or are something else which I will not stoop to write here. I dont need to prove anything here, the proof is overwhelming. Oh and if that many didnt participate just how many did?

Next you think that Okinawan people have been overlyinfluenced by some sort of leftist propaganda and teaching that created this impasse.

Again wrong, the people that participated in this protest were from every segment of society and not limited to one political view or another. All political parties were joined together to protest this issue.

Oh dont forget either that the LDP is also popular among voters here, so to extend your logic here just a little you are calling stalwart members of the LDP leftist because they participated in this demonstration. I say that because I know of "card-carrying" members of the LDP that were there in support.

Use your heads guys, it isnt about you, you are not going to get hurt by these changes. In fact it's taking it back to the staus quo. I would rather it go further, but that isnt the point here. You know whats really great about all of this, is that throughout Japan kids and adults as well are getting "educated" through the generosity of the press about this issue. That is priceless...people generally can make their own decisions on what to think or believe.


One year ago you didnt even know about this, now that it becomes news you hypocrtically jump on a bandwagon that you never knew existed.

I say it's hypocritical because for all these years the textbooks had the information written in them and you said nor complained about anything.

Your HS textbooks had this written, why didnt you complain sooner? And please dont say we just found out about it....you were taught this back in HS, along with the rest of Japan.

Also in response to the line, paraphrasing here;..."I have some Okinawan friends........"

You want to know why that comes across as racist to me?

They are Japanese friends from Okinawa, big difference. I let you try and figure out what that difference is. Good luck

[junjunforever]

:blush:
I like her.
I think most japanese is proud of her.
Aizu ppl was the more discriminated than okinawan.

Aizu? i really never heard of them. I heard of much discrimination from Buraku, Okinawans, Ainus and Choseon-Koreans. THey usually include not no jobs, not allowed housing, and not allowed in onsens and sentos. But there are cases where mass murder was committed such as during the Kanto earthquake less than 100 years ago.

Actually japan is the only developed country in the world without any law forbidding racial discrimination. It was only 4 years ago, a white person had to sue an onsen to allowed entrance.

But i really dotn know what you are trying to argue. If Amuro Namie was from Chiba, nobody would have known she was from Chiba. Since she was from Okinawa, everybody knew she was from Okinawa. She marked start of ending of discrimination of okinawans in Japan.


You say you dont want okinawans to be like koreans. I actually think japanese okinawaians, koreans, chiense, americans and europeans are all the same.

Racism exist in korea or china. But it is forbidden by law and racists are looked as bad. People like you cause japan to be seen as a racist nation. A name that it doesnt deserve.

[diceke]

Aizu? i really never heard of them. I heard of much discrimination from Buraku, Okinawans, Ainus and Choseon-Koreans. THey usually include not no jobs, not allowed housing, and not allowed in onsens and sentos. But there are cases where mass murder was committed such as during the Kanto earthquake less than 100 years ago.

Actually japan is the only developed country in the world without any law forbidding racial discrimination. It was only 4 years ago, a white person had to sue an onsen to allowed entrance.

But i really dotn know what you are trying to argue. If Amuro Namie was from Chiba, nobody would have known she was from Chiba. Since she was from Okinawa, everybody knew she was from Okinawa. She marked start of ending of discrimination of okinawans in Japan.


You say you dont want okinawans to be like koreans. I actually think japanese okinawaians, koreans, chiense, americans and europeans are all the same.

Racism exist in korea or china. But it is forbidden by law and racists are looked as bad. People like you cause japan to be seen as a racist nation. A name that it doesnt deserve.

It has nothing to do with the topic, but racial discrimination is forbidden by the constitution. Ignorance personified! :okashii:

[caster51]

Aizu? i really never heard of them. I heard of much discrimination from Buraku, Okinawans, Ainus and Choseon-Koreans
:blush::blush:
you should study more about their history
They received disgrace that was crueller than Okinawa.
first immigrant to USA were aizu ppls because of discrimination as rebel army.

nobody would have known she was from Chiba. Since she was from Okinawa, everybody knew she was from Okinawa. She marked start of ending of discrimination of okinawans in Japan.

what are you talking about?
there are more famous okinawan before her:blush:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B2%96%E7%B8%84%E7%9C%8C%E5%87%BA%E8%BA%AB%E3%8 1%AE%E4%BA%BA%E7%89%A9%E4%B8%80%E8%A6%A7

Your HS textbooks had this written, why didnt you complain sooner? And please dont say we just found out about it....you were taught this back in HS, along with the rest of Japan.
it is because of a tokashiki's case

[KirinMan]

it is because of a tokashiki's case
You only learned of that because of what happened now I am willing to bet. The textbooks have had this information in them for years.

[junjunforever]

It has nothing to do with the topic, but racial discrimination is forbidden by the constitution. Ignorance personified! :okashii:
Plz, stop calling people brainless.

is racial discrimination really forbidden by the japanese "constitution"? I think you should either read up more or actually live in Japan. Ever heard of bars where foreigners cant enter? or a small city in the countryside barring foreigners from living in apartments just two or three years ago?

Not really, according to the Yunohara Onsen case.

# Feb 2001: Three people excluded-- naturalized Japanese citizen Arudou Debito, German Olaf Karthaus and American Ken Sutherland --took one Otaru onsen (hot spring) and the City of Otaru to court for, respectively, racial discrimination, and negligence under the Constitution and UN treaty.
# Nov 2002: The Sapporo's District Court's ruling held Onsen Yunohana culpable, ordering restitution to the three plaintiffs of 1 million yen each. However, the Court ruled that the illegal activity was not racial discrimination per se, but "unrational discrimination", i.e. "discriminating too much", thus avoiding clear litmus tests for future lawsuits. This legal reasoning has been ruled invalid repeatedly by the United Nations.


So basically, the hokkaido court said that the discrimination itself was not bad per se, but that the discrimination had negative effect to the society, and only because ti had negative effect, it was disallowed.

[diceke]

Junjun, sorry, you are on the wrong thread.:okashii:

[Mars Man]

I would like to ask that we check up to see what's happening about the textbook's being changed issue...and maybe keep more on topic along those lines, a little bit more carefully. . . PLEASE. MM

[KirinMan]

I would like to ask that we check up to see what's happening about the textbook's being changed issue...and maybe keep more on topic along those lines, a little bit more carefully. . . PLEASE. MM

As always thank you for your words of wisdom and guidance. Much appreciated.

[caster51]

at least , a thing i understood was someone want to transfer it to discrimination matter.

Originally Posted by Mars Man


I would like to ask that we check up to see what's happening about the textbook's being changed issue...and maybe keep more on topic along those lines, a little bit more carefully. . . PLEASE. MM

I disagree with this because it did not investigate and discuss that Japanese army force them to sucide concretely .
before that, we should clarify it

if it will not be clarified, it would be political probrem.

then I want to start it as political problem and today's okinawan plobrem

[Mars Man]

at least , a thing i understood was someone want to transfer it to discrimination matter.

I can appreciate your point, caster51 san. I cannot say--because I cannot go inside the others' brains--if any one 'wanted' to...it probably just happened. Anyway, whatever the case may be, let's do our best to not let it go in that direction.

I disagree with this because it did not investigate and discuss that Japanese army force them to sucide concretely. before that we should clarify it.(bold and underline mine)

It is not so clear just what your 'this' means there. I think that common syntactic perception would draw the conclusion that your 'this' refers to my quoted wording. In that understanding, you would be saying that you are disagreeing to keep this thread on topic. Your further wording there does not adhere to that line of thought in the logical sense, however, so obviously that is not what you are saying.

Please follow along carefully, caster51 san...お願いします (please politely consider) You see, in my post which you have quoted and are replying to, I had written the following: '... check up to see what's happening about the textbook's being changed issue...'

Look at that and note the stress that I have put on 'check up' (=investigate) and 'textbook's being changed' and within that, 'issue.' I think you can now percieve that I am talking about exactly what you have mentioned. Investigation is still needed, and not only on hard evidence or whatever, but on what debate may be going on in political circles and so on.

For example, since you disagree with a number of the people who attended that public forum (or whatever it can be called) it might be good to simply provide more variety of source information on it--what did they say? to what degree can that be seen as valid? in what ways can it be challenged? to what degree can those ways of challenge be tested? what new statements and events have come out which affect either position? Then, report that in posts here. That would be keeping more so on topic. (of course there will be some embedding discussion)

Now, this, of course is for all of us...I'm not talking only to you, caster51, but am talking to all (including myself) via this answer to your reply to my earlier post.

if it will not be clarified, it would be political probrem.
then I want to start it as political problem and today's okinawan plobrem

That would be in another thread if it were about a political problem beyond the textbook changes problem.

This post is itself off-topic. I simply wanted to answer to caster51 and felt PM would not be as optimum. I will delete this in 3 days--having given caster51 time to have read it. Please do not answer to this.

[KirinMan]

I disagree with this because it did not investigate and discuss that Japanese army force them to sucide concretely .before that, we should clarify it
First off how can you say that no one investigated this with the army? IS there any proof of that?

There are numerous survivors that say otherwise, but I always get the feeling from reading your replies here that you think that they are either lying, or have some kind of mental relapse that doesnt allow them to remember things clearly.

You know there are plenty of video tapes of people jumping off cliffs, mothers throwing their babies over cliffs and then jumping in after them.

Now whether they were forced or not depends upon the view you choose to take. Sure they jumped on their own, sadly enough, but the question you need to answer Caster is why did they do it in the first place? What were they educated to believe and by whom where they taught?

However it is a fact that between the Japanese military and civilian population here in Okinawa thousands of suicides occured. Hell even the commanding General commited suicide in atonement for his failure.

He did it because of his beliefs and education, most Okinawan people didnt have the same beliefs nor education, plus they were forced into their situation by the Japanese military, that is also undisputable.

[caster51]

Caster is why did they do it in the first place? What were they educated to believe and by whom where they taught?

it had a nothig to do with "forced."
its education and "forced" are different
It is not because they were ordered by the army at that time....
it was not only okinawan...


indeed , many okinawan citizens of the nonresistance were killed by US.
there would be no hiroshima and nagasaki ....

[KirinMan]

it had a nothig to do with "forced."
It is not because they were ordered by the army at that time....
it wan not only okinawan...
Caster everyone knows it wasnt "just" Okinawan people that committed suicide.

Tell me why do you think all these peaceful non military type people commited suicide?

[caster51]

Caster everyone knows it wasnt "just" Okinawan people that committed suicide

so what?

Tell me why do you think all these peaceful non military type people commited suicide?
of course it is because of tradition from ancient .
however it is not only this reason
most Japanese realized that even though it was a brainwashed

this is one of examples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada

[KirinMan]

so what?
Read your quote here

it was not only okinawan...

Hence my reply to you......so to you So What?

of course it is because of tradition from ancient .
however it is not only this reason
most Japanese realized that even though it was a brainwashed

So the the Okinawan people were brainwashed as well right? Since the Okinawan people didnt have the ancient tradition of committing seppuku.

And the only people around that were doing the brainwashing to the Okinawan people was the Japanese Imperial Army.....

So who is to blame Caster?

[caster51]

So the the Okinawan people were brainwashed as well right? Since the Okinawan people didnt have the ancient tradition of committing seppuku

it has a nothing to do with that.:blush:
what is a seppuku?
there were any kind of ancient tradition of committing sucide.LOL
Japan does not teach how to commit sucide today.



And the only people around that were doing the brainwashing to the Okinawan people was the Japanese Imperial Army.....

it has nothing to do with "forced" and orderd"

even Jew committed sucide...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada

I can imagine that they(jew)also fought until last.
However they were cornerd. and there was no choice because of their pride

[KirinMan]

it has a nothing to do with that.:blush:
what is a seppuku?
there were any kind of ancient tradition of committing sucide.LOL
Japan does not teach how to commit sucide today.
it has nothing to do with "forced" and orderd"
even Jew committed sucide...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada
I can imagine that they(jew)also fought until last.
However they were cornerd. and there was no choice because of their pride
Now you are pulling at straws here, you know what seppuku is.....

Oh and what happened with Jews has absolutely nothing to do with the current topic.

Why do you insist on trying to change the topic caster?

This is about Japan and Japanese, why do you insist on trying to change the subject?

[caster51]

Why do you insist on trying to change the topic caster?
I dnot change about the evidence of "forced"
whether rewriting or not need a evidence.
and only education does not lead committing sucide...

and shame culture might be one of reasons.

Ｉ think masada case was a same condition of okinawa at that time.
I admire them though it was a tragedy.

[KirinMan]

I dnot change about the evidence of "forced"
whether rewriting or not need a evidence.
and only education does not lead committing sucide...
and shame culture might be one of reasons.

Then why didnt you complain about it before when it was included in the textbooks? :okashii:




Ｉ think masada case was a same condition of okinawa at that time.
I admire them though it was a tragedy
Nice try at a comparison but Okinawan's didnt invite the war, it was thrust upon them.

[caster51]

Then why didnt you complain about it before when it was included in the textbooks?

because of tokashiki's case(aka akamatsu case)

[Dutch Baka]

It would be nice if the people from the mainland would also say something about certain things, such as the Okinawans did. (does anyone know any cases like these?)

But did the war really came to the mainland besides the bombings?

I believe that the Japanese Imperial army have done teriblle things, some of them are true some aren't. Some people are trying to make it look worse, while other are trying to make it look like if nothing had happened.



what is a seppuku?


Are you serious with this? If you are... then what are you doing in this thread. :okashii:





Japan does not teach how to commit sucide today.
This is not about today... why are you talking about this?

[Mikawa Ossan]

Are you serious with this? If you are... then what are you doing in this thread. :okashii:
It could have been a rhetorical question. Or it could have been less literal than everyone here seems to be taking it. As should be evident, caster is doing his best with the English skills he has. I think we should at least give him the benefit of a doubt!:cool:

[caster51]

Yaeyama article
http://www6.ocn.ne.jp/~nippo/
I dont agree with okinawan movement about that
if you killed your relatives by order, order would be more important than your relatives life
in oldtestiments God demanded Abhraham to kill his son Isac for Royality
then he prepared to kill his son. then God stopped Abhraham.
I realy feel bad for that
there was no such tradition for royalty even in Japan
If I were him, I would run with my son. i think it is a human feeling.
so , could okinawan kill their wife and son ? even though there were order ..
after her escape. then I would commit sucide. i undersand it cleary
why did okinawan killed their relatives?
they would think and conform they were happy because of escaping of pain.
that was why they killed their relatives
before enemy landed, it is easy to imagin that okinawa was already panic because of bombing.
Tokashiki villege and some villeges did not particpated in this Rally
they know it well because they experienced it.
and In saipan, Japanese army also did not defend civillians like okinawa.
both The soldier and the civilian committed suicide all by the enemy's landing.
there was no ordering of army to commit sucide in Saipan.
howwver they did.
It is not possible　for man to commit suicide easy by ordering even in that condition.
it is also impossible to kill relatives by ordering for suside
I think there would be hopelessness, panic and wanting ease.....
最後に上の原稿を没にした新聞社にも一言。
9月の本島の新聞を見ると沖縄の全県民が皆同じ事を考えているような印象を受ける。
新聞が社の見解に基づいて世論を誘導しようと考えるならば、それこそファッショの胎動である。それは新聞の 越権行為、自滅への道でもある。（2007.9.30）
http://blog.goyah.net/upimg/toita/07100611031301.jpg
『県民大会反対』眼科医　宮良長和　～八重山日報　10/2　『論壇』～
9月9日の新報の宮平修氏の論壇の県民大会反対の意見に全面的に賛成する者である。
殊に「仮に軍命により自決したとすると（肉親の命より軍命が大事）という云う事になりはしないか」と言う箇 所は卓見であると思う。
旧約聖書に神がアブラハムの忠誠を試す為に彼の愛する一人子イサクを犠牲の子羊として捧げよと命じる場面が ある。
アブラハムは云われる通りその準備を着々と進める。神はアブラハムの忠誠心をお確かめになった上で、土壇場 になって神の一言でイサクは助けられる。
ここを読む度に違和感を覚えるのは一人だけではないだろう。
私ならその様に言われたら、たとえ神様の仰せでも息子を連れて逃げる。それが人情だろう。
それが神様でもない高が守備隊の隊長位が自決せよと命令したからと云って、妻子を自分の手にかけて殺せるか 。
妻子は逃がして自分だけ自決したのならまだ解る。
そうしたのは生き残れば悲惨な目に遭う、いっその事死んで貰った方が幸せであると確信したからこそあの様な 行為に出たのである。
それに敵軍の上陸を前にして集団的発狂状態にあったとも考えられる。命令とは関係ないだろう。あの様な考え は間違いであった、とは今だからこそ言えるのであって当時は皆そのように信じていたのである。
この消息を一番よく知っているのは、渡嘉敷村の人々だろう。
先日の新聞には、渡嘉敷村と外の二、三の議会だけが県民大会への出席をまだ決定していないとあるが、当事者 だけにその間の事情ををよく知っているからためらう処があるのだろうと考えられる。
何故命令で死んだ事にしたいのかその理由がよく解らない。その方が補償をたくさん貰えるという事であるが、 その方は既に解決済みとも聞いている。
真実を歴史として残さなければならないとはもっともらしい意見ではあるが、自決すべしという命令は出さなか ったという声もあるし、これから始める戦争の足手まといはなったかも知れないが、こんな命令を出す余裕があ っただろうか疑わしい。それどころか守備の隊長くらいにそんな命令を出す権限はないだろう。
又、その事が亡くなった人々の霊を慰める事になるとも考えられない。むしろ逆である。宮平氏も云っている様 に軍の命令で妻子を殺したとなれば殺して自分も死んだ人々の霊は永久に浮かばれまい。
因みにこの機会に不満をぶちまけたい。この渡嘉敷島の守備隊の中には沖縄出身の軍人も居たのである。それな のに、何故、日本軍がそうのこうのと云うのか。中国人やアメリカ人が云うならとにかく、只の軍ではいけない のか。そんな考えでいるから琉球人と特別視されるのである。（2007.9.12）
以上は去る9月12日に、その内容からして本島の新聞に投稿したものであるが、没になったので改めて八重山 日報にお願いした。
現在でも以上の考えに変わりはない。サイパンに於ける集団自決の体験者からも会って体験談を聞いた。サイパ ンでも軍は住民を守らなかったのは同じらしい。昼間空襲の激しい時は入れてくれたそうであるが、夜は出され たという。いよいよ敵の上陸が迫った時は同じ壕で軍人も民間人も手榴弾で自決したとの事。1発で死にきれず 苦しさの余り軍人が民間人、それも事もあろうに話してくれた血まみれになって泣いている小学1年生の女の子 に殺してくれと頼んだというが、子供にそんな事が出来るわけがない。そのうちアメリカの兵隊がやって来て始 末してくれいてその子は助け出されたと云う。何もアメリカの兵隊だから助けたのではないだろう。日本人だっ てその立場になれば同じ事をする。人間は皆同じ様なものである。
その外の死にきれなかった者が崖から海に飛び込んだそうであるが、女子供はは1回で済んでも体力のある男は 苦しいので岩を這い上がって来て何回かで目的を達したそうである。
本島の新聞は、投稿規定に字数の制限があるので十分かけなかったので追記したい。上にも書いたが、大体守備 隊の隊長が、たとえ自決命令を出したとしても、それだけで人間は自殺できない事は明らかである。それどころ か、親や兄弟を自ら手を下して殺せるか。サイパンでは自決命令は出ていないのに同じ現象が起きている。人間 は戦争、それもいざ敵が身近に迫ったとなれば集団発狂の状態に陥るとは考えられる。
とにかく、今の沖縄では軍隊や軍人は悪者、民間人は無辜の民という観念が定着している。
その軍隊には沖縄から引っ張られるように徴集された者も居ただろうが自ら志願して行った者もいるのである。 それを何故わざわざ日本の軍人、軍隊というのか。いかにも我々は日本人ではないと主張している 様である。
マラリア問題も同じ。戦場になることが予想される処に、民間人は放置して軍だけ於茂登山に立てこもる訳には ゆくまい。マラリアに罹らせる為にやった事ではないだろう。実際に軍人も多数がマラリアに罹っ ている。
昔の第二次世界大戦を考えてみても、軍部だけでは戦争は出来ない。付和雷同した我々にも責任の一端はあるの である。「ぬちどぅ宝、戦争は真っ平、軍隊など無用の長物」を呪文のように唱えている人々は手始めに国内の 警察を全廃する事から始めたらいい。そして、中国が台湾を占領し、本土沖縄のすぐ近くまで中国の領海である と宣言し、彼の国の原子力潜水艦が近海を我が者顔に遊弋しても、ご無理ごもっともと大目に見て居ればよい。 その覚悟さえあれば軍備は必要ない
最後に上の原稿を没にした新聞社にも一言。
9月の本島の新聞を見ると沖縄の全県民が皆同じ事を考えているような印象を受ける。
新聞が社の見解に基づいて世論を誘導しようと考えるならば、それこそファッショの胎動である。それは新聞の 越権行為、自滅への道でもある。（2007.9.30）

[caster51]

I think we should at least give him the benefit of a doubt!
I welcome the benefit of a doubt:wave:
Quote:Originally Posted by caster51
what is a seppuku?
Are you serious with this? If you are... then what are you doing in this thread.
there are two meaning in seppuku.
it is not only meaning of committing suicide
to order seppuku does not mean committing sucide.
it means "Compensate with the death."
to committing suicides are seen at end of battles without education in the world.
When committing suicide, they merely cut his belly indtead of neck or heart in japan.
I think there were ppls who committed suicide in end of power struggles even in okinawa

家臣を内応させることで今帰仁城を落城させ、樊安知は自害し北山の最後となります。
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~by4m-Knst/minor/Ryukyu.htm

[KirinMan]

because of tokashiki's case(aka akamatsu case)
So does that mean you had no prior knowledge about this issue?

So is it safe to assume that you knew nothing about this until this issue was raised recently?

If that is the case how can you be so sure it didnt happen if you didnt know about it?

It bothers me greatly that you can come here and make comments stating that it didnt happen but you have no prior information about this issue until this topic arose within the past 6 months or so. Regarding rewriting of the textbooks that is.

How can you assume it didnt happen since you didnt know? Do you assume that you are taught all about what happened in Japanese history while you were a student in JHS and HS?

there are two meaning in seppuku.
it is not only meaning of committing suicide
to order seppuku does not mean committing sucide.

Ok if it doesnt mean suicide than what does it mean? One had to kill oneself either at the order of ones leige lord or to make ammends for "something" that one did. Either way the individual had to slit their own belly, no one did it for them. That is suicide, when a person kills themselves no matter the reason it is still suicide.

God demanded Abhraham to kill his son Isac for Royality
then he prepared to kill his son. then God stopped Abhraham.
I realy feel bad for that
Why do you feel sorry for a bible story that may have happened or may not? There is ABSOLUTELY NO equaling what happened in Okinawa with what is written in the bible. But if you believe one then why not believe the other?

they would think and conform they were happy because of escaping of pain.
that was why they killed their relatives

That's is pure bs...I KNOW people from Tokashiki, odds are you never even heard of the island until this issue arose, now you come across as if you are an expert on the issue.

Far be it from me to claim that either, but I will say this;

Caster......bring your butt down here to Okinawa, talk to the people, read the information, and learn. Your eyes just might be widened a bit to what actually happened here.

[caster51]

Tokashiki monument

http://blog.zaq.ne.jp/tachikoma/img/img_box/article85.jpg

豪雨の中を米軍の攻撃に追いつめられた島の住民たちは、（中略）敵の手に掛かるよりは自らの手で自決する道 を選んだ。一家或いは、車座になって手榴弾を抜き或いは力ある父や兄が弱い母や妹の生命を断った。そこにあ るのは愛であった

In tokashiki monument, it is written like that

the tokashiki ppl was cornerd by U.S attacking in heavy rain.
ppl chose to commit suicide by themselves instead of enemy's hand.
the family and the groups, sitting in a circle pulled out hand grenade.
father and older brother cut off mother and young sister's life.
however there was "LOVE"

[caster51]

according to Kurara report
kurara
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurara_Chibana

her grandfather told his experience to her.
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=zh-TXoeK1xM
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=uzwQr0FGSlg

[Chidoriashi]

I hate break it to you Caster but it doesnt say whether or not they were coerced into doing that or not. (その碑は無理にさせられたかどうか確認しないですよ� Aだから何も証明しないですよ）。　
They could be just leaving the part out about the JIA "advising" them to commit suicide.

Caster, the militeristic government of the time was training even young girls to fight against American soldiers, in the mainland invasion (had it happened). Up to 28 million citizens including young teenage boys and girls, and old men probably with not many years left were being coerced to fight against american soldiers.... Drafting 28 million regular people to fight and die for the glory of the JIA.. or possibly just for negotiating power.....And you think it would have been uncharacteristic of the Japanese Imperial army to order the Okinawans to do something like that.. or scare, or convince them to do something like that..... Yeah... reading just about things like Operation Ketusgo I can easily see the JIA doing something like that to the Okinawans..... (not even taking into how horrible the JIA acted in many of the places it conquered..... you arguement just defies all logic Caster..... The JIA had a horrible track record.. which even if only half of it is true.. would not allow them the benfit of the doubt in this argument.

Here is all about Operation Ketsugo in Japanese for your unbelieving pleasure (cuz like I told you before Caster.. it doesnt matter how much evidence you see..or how obvious what we are all trying to make you see is true... you simply dont want to believe.. you wouldn't allow yourself to lose face like that. That is the only reason I can see why you are for changing/covering history.
And I don't see why accepting the fact that the Japanese have blood on their hands just like every other nation in history would make you lose face about Japan today.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9B%BD%E6%B0%91%E7%BE%A9%E5%8B%87%E6%88%A6%E9%9 7%98%E9%9A%8A

[Astroboy]

IF it's wrong, fabricated, or forced to write, then Japan should rewrite the history.

History is always rewrote when something new is found. But if you believe "winners can write the history". Then please mention "This History is wrote by winners" in the preface. Then it's OK to us. Nobody trust such a history. That's all.

[Elizabeth]

I first heard this on the news this past Friday evening. Once again the Japanese Government is attempting to rewrite it's history, this time in regards to it's own people. There are many here in Okinawa that are more than just a little "upset" at this.
Japan to Revise Books on WWII Suicides (http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Mar30/0,4670,JapanForcedSuicides,00.html)
This time there is factual evidence that the Japanese Military personnel ordered the civilians to commit suicide. I have heard survivors of the war give lectures to Elementary, Junior High and High School students about this sad part of the Battle of Okinawa.

Evidence is obviously not the determining factor to the Japanese government. The system of textbook censorship, or I should say "authorization," has been shown for what it is -- a laughably politicized process. As seen in the decision to now include mention of forced suicides in textbooks, which was announced yesterday.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/2007/12/27/d20071227000004.html

No clear explanation was given beyond their newfound heartfelt sympathy at the misery of Wartime survivors, certianly no mention of fresh look at the historical records. My best guess is that it was the fierce resistance of the Okinawan people during the last election cycle and the negative impact on the ruling party. :okashii:

[tokapi]

fierce resistance of the Okinawan people during the last election cycle and the negative impact on the ruling party.




people power ... :cool:

[pipokun]

...
My best guess is that it was the fierce resistance of the Okinawan people during the last election cycle and the negative impact on the ruling party. :okashii:

I do not know why the 110,000 was originally just about 20,000.

okashii