The former Dutch East Indies

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hello to all,

I have completed my website. On page 83 you will read about my 14 days visit to Japan. Page 84 is my last page.
Please forgive me all the mistakes I have made in the English language!

www.dutch-east-indies.com

[KirinMan]

Hello to all,
I have completed my website. On page 83 you will read about my 14 days visit to Japan. Page 84 is my last page.
Please forgive me all the mistakes I have made in the English language!
www.dutch-east-indies.com
Congratulations, I am looking forward to reading through your story. Thanks for sharing it here with everyone.:-)

I would like to add that I read through the sections up to and after your going to Sri Lanka after WWII and I was so saddened when reading the experiences you had in the prison in Indonesia and the conditions you lived in. It sounds like you had a happy childhood and I am sorry for your lose in not being able to grow up with your father. Also the thought that your father was probably/maybe tortured as well. At least you have a happy memory of him from your last day. I was touched deeply by what you experienced.

I worry about the impression that some people that post here are going to get from reading your "life" history. It was truly a different time and one that for myself at least I can not imagine having to live through.

I am also amazed at your lack of animosity towards both the Indonesian people and Japanese as well.

You have a forgiving heart, and I hope that I can have the same tenderness and love that you have. If you believe in God, I would like to say may God Bless you for sharing these experiences with all of us here and those that are fortunate enough to read and share in your life.

Thank you.

[Sukotto]

I read your section on visiting Japan so far.
Nagasaki...sigh. A lovely town.
My first real experience in Japan as well,
and outside the US.
The downtown in the background right of the pic?
Reminds me of my host family's street. But all streets are narrow,
and "Japanese" compared to those in the States.

Looking forward to reading your history from Indonesia.

(Sumimasen, might your map be off a bit?
Portuguese Timor and wasn't the island of New Guinea also
English and Germany colonies besides one of the Dutch possessions?
i have bit of sensativity toward East Timor. Sumimasen.) :bow:

[leonmarino]

Mighty impressive to say the very least.. I have no other words for it.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Obeika,
Thank you for your beautiful and warm words!!!
I don't forgive the Japanese Kempeitai who killed my father. But I never had and have any hard feeling against the Japanese people in general.
As for the Indonesians, I love them. They are a wonderful people.
Thank you for your understanding!!!

leonmarino,

You too, thanks a lot for your very kind words!!

[diceke]

I understand that personal experiences of an individual are different from the actions of a country, but it makes me wonder how the Dutch are taught in school about the former Dutch colonies. The bloodshed of the war of independence and the transfer of sovereignty were costly. The war allegedly caused hundreds of thousands of deaths. Upon independence, the Netherlands demanded Indonesia a large sum of £ 6.1 billion, of which Indonesia agreed to pay £ 4.3 billion. (That's greedy, if you ask me.):okashii:

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hello Diceke,

Thank you for your questions.
I start off with the education the Dutch schools given today about the ex-colony. They Dutch children learn that the Dutch who lived in the former D.E.I were exploiters of the poor Indonesian people. The so called bad guys! That our fathers worked for Dutch firms which became very rich from the colony is not mentioned.
Neither is mentioned that the Dutch government in Holland and the royal family became very rich as well through Indonesia.

I don't know exactly how much money Indonesia paid Holland. But I do know that president Sukarno nationalised all the money and other properties from the Dutch who had worked and lived in Indonesia, sometimes generations long.
A part of that money (money from our parents) went to the Dutch government. My mother has never seen any of my father's savings. That money from the Dutch and other Europeans is used for rebuilding the Netherlands after WWII that was damaged by the Germans.

The independence war was a very black page in the Dutch history!
Bloodshed came from both sides. Not the official Indonesian Army killed many Dutch, but the young men/boys killed thousands of Dutch civilians of whom most were still in the Japanese camps.
It was president Yudoyono from Indonesia who told the Dutch minister B.Bot that there have been guilt during the idependence from Indonesia on both sides. No need to start to apologize. Indonesia and The Netherlands are friends again, even better than before.

Thank you for your questions.

Believe me, I wish that the Dutch had had never sent troops to Indonesia.
It was a big mistake, especially in the eyes from the Dutch who had lived in Indonesia.
Did you read on my website that I visited Sukarno's tomb in Blitar? Page 74.

Real history you learn from people who were there. That is why the stories from ordinary people are often more honest than from our governments.

[caster51]

http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/B000197HMO.09.MZZZZZZZ.jpg
Indonesia and Imperial Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X54hOEzh3os
Asian History: Indonesian / Malay Perspective on Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1_bBEmihnQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UPNsOvfV-E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjSxpu7Z2co
as for the Netherlands, it is very shame to have demanded money contingent on therir independence.
Sukarno signed 17805 at independence day , that is kouki ,17th Aug 2605.
2605 was Japanese year that he showed his gratitude.
DId japan lose a war?
http://iimovie.com/syuusenn.html
1992,the mayer of Amsterdam said like that
We won the war.
but we lost our colony.
who won the war?
---------------------------------------
日本傷病軍人会代表団が戦時は敵国であったオランダを 訪問した際、同国の傷病軍人代表と共に聞いたアムステ ルダム市長の挨拶が、以下のものである。
「貴方がた日本は、先の大戦で負けて、勝った私どもオ ランダは勝って大敗しました。今、日本は世界一、二位 を争う経済大国になりました。私たちオランダはその間 屈辱の連続でした。即ち勝ったはずなのに、世界一の貧 乏国になりました。戦前はアジアに本国の三十六倍もの 大きな植民地インドネシアがあり、石油等の資源産物で 本国は栄躍栄華を極めていました。
　今のオランダは日本の九州と同じ広さの本国丈となり ました。あなた方日本はアジア各地で侵略戦争を起こし て申し訳ない、諸民族に大変迷惑をかけたと自分をさげ すみ、ペコペコ謝罪していますが、これは間違いです。
　あなた方こそ自らの血を流して東亜民族を解放し、救 い出す、人類最高の良いことをしたのです。何故ならあ なたの国の人々は、過去の歴史の真実を目隠しされて、 今次大戦の目先のことのみ取り上げ、或いは洗脳されて、悪いことをしたと、自分で悪者になっているが 、ここで歴史をふり返って、真相を見つめる必要がある でしょう。
　本当は私共白人が悪いのです。百年も三百年も前から 競って武力で東亜民族を征服し、自分の領土として勢力 下にしました。植民地や属領にされて長い間奴隷的に酷 使されていた東亜諸民族を解放し、共に繁栄しようと、 遠大崇高な理想をかかげて、大東亜共栄圏という旗印で 立ち上がったのが、貴国日本だったはずでしょう。
　本当に悪いのは侵略して権力を振っていた西欧人の方 です。日本は敗戦したが、その東亜の解放は実現しまし た。即ち日本軍は戦勝国の全てを東亜から追放して終わ りました。その結果アジア諸民族は各々独立を達成しま した。日本の功績は偉大です。血を流して闘ったあなた 方こそ最高の功労者です。自分をさげすむのを止めて、 堂々と胸を張って、その誇りを取り戻すべきです
the funniest thing is...
someone is still dreaming under colonialism

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hello caster51,

Why do you think that the Japanese Army went to Indonesia for?
That's right...for the oil!
The independence story came later when Japan began to lose the war.

I read many of the threads, and I guess that you try to offend as many non Japanese as you can. Strange hobby.

Ah well, I have a strange hobby too. I look for peace in this world of WAR!

[GodEmperorLeto]

I read many of the threads, and I guess that you try to offend as many non Japanese as you can. Strange hobby.
I don't think his objective is to offend rather than inform.

The problem is, the information he has is radically revisionist. And so, he tends to offend people and get into some really tough scrapes with some of the other forumgoers.

[caster51]

I read many of the threads, and I guess that you try to offend as many non Japanese as you can. Strange hobby.
Ah well, I have a strange hobby too. I look for peace in this world of WAR!
I never offend personaly maybe..
I just show the doccuments , video and some histrical speech.
then I do Rebuttal...
I dont want to like as you said " personal Abuse"
you felt a pain? beacese it is just opposite opinion.

The problem is, the information he has is radically revisionist. And so, he tends to offend people and get into some really tough scrapes with some of the other forumgoers.
this topic is about me?
I am not a revisionist at all.
Fact is a Fact. that is my motto..
if someone want to object it about histrical matter , it should offer the doccument.

[caster51]

to Elizabeth van Kampen san
I know your feeling that you live in Indnasia at that time.
I think it was a good memory.
I feel sorry that your father killed was by kenpeitai.
please consider . it was under rule of dutch.
then you were happy and had a good memory.
I hope you an objective consideration.

It is like ...
most japanese that lived in Taiwan, and .. at that time cant tell it like you

[KirinMan]

I am not a revisionist at all.
if someone want to object it about histrical matter , it should offer the doccument

However Caster I think that part of the reason that many many find your posts "revisionist" is that the information that you share with everyone here is not or are not accepted by most people outside of Japan.

Plus as you know as well history is not only remembered by what is recorded on paper. If you only accept recorded documentation as evidence of past history then I am afraid that, in my opinion, you have a very narrow view of world history and will never accept what the overwhelming majority of the world recognizes and accepts as fact.

Fact is a Fact.
All depends who is reading or anaylzing the "facts". To be objective, honestly objective it is necessary to look at any issue from both sides, otherwise you are only getting half the story, and for me at least that is unacceptable.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hello caster51,

Thanks to my father I grew up in one of the most beautiful countries in the world. And yes it was a Dutch colony before the war, and yes it made Holland a very rich country. As from 1925 Holland sent more better educated Dutch people to their colony and many more Dutch women. At the same time quite some Indonesians went to Holland to the Dutch universities.
There were only 120 000 Europeans ( not only Dutch) living in the colony, but there were thousands more Eurasians living on the islands, especially in Java. That was the basic group of our lives in the former Dutch East Indies.
The Dutch often went back to Holland when their pension started.
There were far more Japanese and Chinese people living in the former Dutch colony than Dutch people.

Not every Dutchmen loved the former Dutch East Indies caster51, some even hated the colony. My parents liked the country and the people, especially my father. But I have loved this country with all my heart. I could have stayed there all my life if Sukarno had given me that chance.
On the whole, believe it or not, the Indonesians and Dutch got on very well as individuals. My father was loved and respected by the Indonesians, and so were many other Dutch people in those days.

What Holland did after WWII in Indonesia, was/is also wrong in my eyes.
I don't believe in war, one must be able to talk things out. Holland made a very big mistake in those days. Maybe not Sukarno, but quite some other Indonesians were absolutely willing to talk with the Dutch government.

You can see my website as a small piece of history, because I belong to the last European generation of those who grew up in fascinating Asia before World War Two.
Also today I am very interested in Indonesia. I read The Jakarta Post daily, I pay the school for 12 children in Indonesia, form Java, Sumatra and Kalimantan and correspond with those lovely children. I have many CD's with Indonesian music. I am more than interested in everything about Indonesia of today. My love for Indonesia and the Indonesians didn't end when Holland lost their colony.

[caster51]

All depends who is reading or anaylzing the "facts". To be objective, honestly objective it is necessary to look at any issue from both sides, otherwise you are only getting half the story, and for me at least that is unacceptable
Of couese, it is
Datch is nothing to do with japan that they do about their introspection to Indonesia.
japan do japanese way.
I only hate a thief shouts and comlpain the other thief a thief
TO Elizabeth van Kampen
well said

[KirinMan]

japan do japanese way.
I have serious reservations about this statement. If it were actually a "fact" as you often like to point out, I highly doubt that Japan would be the country that it is today.

Instead of writing a new post in another reply to Caster, the following is a reply to the post below me here;

at first, you dont understand reality and sinocentlism.

Caster once again I know what these mean very well, I've pointed that out to you before.


on the other hand, some country is still killing and invading like tibet, taiwan....
they are still making A- bomd and exporting the weapons.

Caster this is way off topic here I hope you know. I am fairly certain that Elizabeth started this thread with the intention of sharing with the world her life experiences and it isn't a thread about the politics of the world today either, but rather in the interests of peace and rememberance of an era that changed the world.

[caster51]

at first, you dont understand reality things and sinocentlism.
what is Japan doing now.?
I think Japan is contributing econmicaly, politicaly for peace.
on the other hand, some country is still killing and invading like tibet, taiwan....
they are still making A- bomd and exporting the weapons and comfort women.

reality thing is like this

The Making of Modern Asia
http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,501050815-1090825,00.html
With reporting by Kishore Mahbubani is dean of the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy at the National University of Singapore, and author of Beyond the Age of Innocence:

it is too old.
http://partners.nytimes.com/library/financial/120591crisis-asia-origins.html

[diceke]

Plus as you know as well history is not only remembered by what is recorded on paper. If you only accept recorded documentation as evidence of past history then I am afraid that, in my opinion, you have a very narrow view of world history and will never accept what the overwhelming majority of the world recognizes and accepts as fact.
History and remembrance of the past are two different things. History should be strictly based on evidence, has nothing to do with majority views. Memory is what people remember to have happened in the past, true or not. I know some people deliberately confuse the two.
To be objective, honestly objective it is necessary to look at any issue from both sides, otherwise you are only getting half the story, and for me at least that is unacceptable.
So why do you keep insisting that others follow your version of story? Try to look at the issue from both sides, otherwise you are only getting half the story.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Yes that is true Obeika, I started my website to tell the world how a war can destroy a normal happy family life.
I would love to read the memories of a Japanese woman of my age, how she felt during WWII. She was then 18 years old when the war was over.
She too might have lost her father and her uncle during that war or a brothers.
My grandparents in Holland lost their two sons, through the Kempeitai.