Virginia Tech school shooting

[maushan3]

Today, something really awful happened: 32 students were killed in a college shooting.

A student or students killed 33 people and wounded 29 on a shooting rampage on VT campus in Virginia, U.S. Look into more details for this ongoing event. It's still a developing story, many victims haven't been identified and the suspect's name has been withheld.

This is the deadliest school shooting ever in the United States.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/index.html

Any comments. Why do you think someone would do such horrible thing?

My condolences to all people affected by this.

Mauricio

[Uncle Frank]

The thing that caught my ear was the shooter was an Asian male. Let's hope there are no copy cats who decide to beat the record. As much as I like guns, things like this are scary. I feel sorry for all the family and friends who are suffering from their lose.

Uncle Frank

:(

[Duo]

Tragedies like this are always horrible. It would be interesting to know what pushed this person/persons do do such a thing. Having so many guns being so easily accessible certainly doesn't help to prevent such things, i think that's also a big part of the problem

[den4]

always sad when idiots take the lives of others along with their own....

[misa.j]

So many fatalities and injured people...how could anyone do such a horrible thing.

It said that there had been two bomb threats, one earlier this month and another last Friday causing the cancellation of the calsses and evacuation of the building, which made me wonder if the shooting was related to those threats.

[Uncle Frank]

it started with the guy killing a girl, maybe his girlfriend? After he shot the two women in a dorm he disappeared for an hour before he showed up on the other side of the campus to kill again. The media will probably tell 10 different stories before the real truth comes out.

Uncle Frank

:(

[Dutch Baka]

Terrible that this happened (it's even worse than the Columbine shooting), I haven't read much about it yet but I did see something on the Japanese news about it.

I don't think it's a gun thing, but a society thing.

[Supervin]

I just read too. Quite shocking. With that, the gun issue would definitely be under fire again.

[KirinMan]

Tragedies like this are always horrible.
They are aren't they, and in no way am I trying to belittle the events that occured there today I would like to add, that unfortunately stuff like this happens nearly everyday in Iraq and all we get are the body counts in the news.

I pray for all the victims of violence such as this, not only in America but everywhere else in the world as well. I also pray in my own way for the survivors of both the victims and the culprits.

When will American's wake up?

[Sarapva]

This happened in my own state, Virginia, and I even attended this college, Virginia Tech, for a year in the '80s. It's shocking that this could happen there - it's such a peaceful, mountain college town. But then there was the shooting of the Amish children in Pennsylvania, people who are peaceful and didn't deserve this kind of thing coming into their community. I have no idea what causes a person to end up killing himself and others - it's akin to the suicide bombings in Iraq. There must be a lot of anger from somewhere, and a feeling of not having control, so this is the way they take some control. Any psychologists out there who might shed some light on why a person would do this sort of thing?

[maushan3]

always sad when idiots take the lives of others along with their own....

It is sad, but, I mean, I know it sounds harsh, if someone wants to suicide, he doesn't have to tell everyone he'll suicide (like for example, when someone jumps off a bridge and the cops have to come in action to tell him to please stop doing), those people just should suicide and not make a fuss off it. But this is very sad when someone kills innocent people just because he's angered at the world.

I don't think it's a gun thing, but a society thing.

Which reminds me: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns are just an easy way to kill, but even if they don't existed, people would kill anyways.

Also, this might go into a whole different thread... but I've noticed that the vast majorities of school tragedies among teens in America are with guns, and in Japan are with knives. Any thoughts on this??

Mauricio

[KirinMan]

but I've noticed that the vast majorities of school tragedies among teens in America are with guns, and in Japan are with knives. Any thoughts on this??

Quite simply.......it's due to the gun control laws.

A Japanese friend of mine said to me today, in his opinion, "If the gun laws here were as lax as they are in the states then shootings like this one would occur here as well".

Which reminds me: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns are just an easy way to kill, but even if they don't existed, people would kill anyways.

True enough, if somebody wants to kill someone else they don't need a gun to do it, just ask all those human IED's.

[justin]

God be with the families of the victims. Poor kids just going to college reaching for the stars.

[Elizabeth]

It said that there had been two bomb threats, one earlier this month and another last Friday causing the cancellation of the calsses and evacuation of the building, which made me wonder if the shooting was related to those threats.
They should obviously also have cancelled classes and locked down the campus after the first shooting. That part of the security response I think is going to be very difficult for a lot of people to ever accept.

In the same way, its a lot more efficient to prevent crimes like this from happening with stricter gun control than to try and change society, dangerous people from the inside or take the calculated risk that a situation is under control. The latter is what appears to have happened here and all my thoughts and prayers to the victims and their loved ones tonight.

[ArmandV]

I just read about it. Naturally, the usual knee-jerk reaction from liberals will be for more gun control.

My feeling is that the school was caught flat-footed in not having an effective reaction. Surely, after Columbine, schools would have put into place reaction plans. How can they allow a rampage like this to go on for so long? Obviously, there's a story that is developing.

[Elizabeth]

I just read about it. Naturally, the usual knee-jerk reaction from liberals will be for more gun control.
My feeling is that the school was caught flat-footed in not having an effective reaction. Surely, after Columbine, schools would have put into place reaction plans. How can they allow a rampage like this to go on for so long? Obviously, there's a story that is developing.
Frankly I could really care less how long it went on and whether the school had an effective reaction, whatever. My workplace is also very vulnerable to something like this. If a dangerous person with a gun walks into a class or workplace determined to kill as many people as possible, most likely a lot of people are going to die. Period.

And the only way to stop it before with absolute certainty before it happens is with gun control. But I guess we'll have to wait for the disproportionate power of a small number of hunters and sportsman to diminish before the absolute right to own a handgun built to kill humans is gone. It really is a bizarre and unjust world out there. :souka:

[KirinMan]

You know there is one solution that just might work, make it a law that all US citizens of voting age MUST carry a personal defense device, a handgun, whenever they go out of the confines of their place of residence.

Make it an offense punishible by lets say 10 years in prison and a $50,000 fine if caught without one.:okashii:

And to the people that say "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns..." that's right, no matter where one lives in this world it is impossible to prevent all actions like this.

Quit making excuses about "rights", these kids that died today had the "right" to live. I am truly saddened by this shooting, and will be the next time it happens, because I'll bet one year of my earnings that it will happen again.


Heck even in Japan, here tonight, at @8:00PM the Mayor of Nagasaki was shot by a gun weilding "person".

[Sukotto]

i got this forwarded to me

"Worst Mass Shooting in US History"

History differs from the claims of the corporate media.

Bear River Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_River_Massacre) January 29th, 1863, Col. Patrick Connor leads a regiment killing at least 200 Indian men, women and children near Preston, Idaho.

Gunther Island Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunther_Island), February 26th, 1860, At least 100 Wiyot Indians, mostly women and children, are slaughtered by white settlers in Humboldt County, California, during one of three simultaneous assaults on the Wiyot

Bloody Island Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Island_Massacre) Spring 1850, The murder of up to 200 Pomo people on an island near Upper Lake, California by Nathaniel Lyon and his U. S. Army detachment, in retribution for the killing of two Clear Lake settlers who had been abusing and murdering Pomo people.

Wounded Knee Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre), December 29th 1890, Around 300 Sioux men, women and children are massacred by US soldiers at Wounded Knee, South Dakota.

Marias Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marias_Massacre), January 23rd, 1870, White Americans slaughter 173 Piegans, mainly women, children and the elderly.

Virginia Tech Rampage (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/index.html), April 16, 2007, A lone gunman killed at least 31 people at Virginia Tech campus.

[KirinMan]

Hey Sukotto nice post......another incident of selective journalism.

[Pachipro]

So, the killer was a 23 yr old exchange student from S. Korea. As a foreigner he cannot legally buy a gun therefore he had to get them illegally. It will be interesting to hear how he obtained them. I wonder how many people thought it was just another crazy American?

As has been said above, Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns. Many countries have outlawed the sale of firearms and their crime went up. Austrailia is one example. After they outlawed the private ownership of guns, crime (not necessarily gun crime) went up substantially as the criminals were now not afraid to rob someone or rob their house as they were pretty sure their victim wouldn't have a gun. Also, the criminal needn't have a gun to commit his crime. A knife or screwdriver will do well as long as he's sure his intended victim is probably not armed.

With the millions and millions of guns already sold in America it will impossible to ban them. Besides, it is guaranteed by the second ammendment. Also, in cities and states that allow you to have firearms in your home, crime has significantly decreased. In fact, I believe there are even a few cities here in the US that request or require all households to have firearms and that the citizens can legally have them on their person. And in all cases the crime in those areas has dwindled to almost nothing. Why? Because criminals are afraid of being shot that's why. It's only when the criminal is pretty sure that their intended victim doesn't have a firearm do they strike.

Again, as in any country, when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns! Guns are forbidden in Japan, but the Yakuza can easily obtain them. Obeika even mentioned that the mayor of Kawasaki was shot yesterday. Same in England and other countries that do not allow firearms. Many cities in the US forbid the private ownership of guns and crime is way up.

The S. Korean student could've easily strapped explosives to himself and blew himself up in a class room. Same outcome.

He could've easily brought two cans of gasoline to the classroom and lit a match. Same outcome.

He could've easily had explosives in his car and blew it up on campus in a crowd. Same outcome.

He could've easily driven his car into a crowd of students at high speed and kept on doing it. Same outcome.

He could've easily made some pipe bombs and placed them strategically around school. Same outcome.

There are many ways he could've killed many people. The point is that if a person is really intent on killing many people he will find a way. If not by gun it will be some other way. To blame it solely on guns and their easily availability in the US shows severe ignorance and a severe lack of common sense. It is so easy for others in other countries to put America down because of it. As has been said before, Guns don't kill people, people do!

You can't just outlaw guns thinking that crime will go down because in a country like America it won't. Where there is a will there is a way. If a criminal wants to commit a crime or kill many people he will whether he can get firearms or not. What is needed is more stringent enforcement of the laws already on the books and let's face it, here in America, unlike Japan and many other countries, people just don't give a damn about the next person because the laws are too lax and there are too many repeat offenders. America has the highest percentage of their population in jail than any other major nation on earth and the majority of them are not in jail because they used a gun when commiting a crime! The problem goes way deeper than that, to the core of society, to family and social values. That's what needs to be addressed first.

My heart goes out to the victims and their families.

[Elizabeth]

So, the killer was a 23 yr old exchange student from S. Korea. As a foreigner he cannot legally buy a gun therefore he had to get them illegally. It will be interesting to hear how he obtained them. I wonder how many people thought it was just another crazy American?
As has been said above, Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns. Many countries have outlawed the sale of firearms and their crime went up. Austrailia is one example. After they outlawed the private ownership of guns, crime (not necessarily gun crime) went up substantially as the criminals were now not afraid to rob someone or rob their house as they were pretty sure their victim wouldn't have a gun. Also, the criminal needn't have a gun to commit his crime. A knife or screwdriver will do well as long as he's sure his intended victim is probably not armed.
The number of victims is going to much less in these types of offenses for the simple reason it is a one on one attack. No spray of bullets richocheting off buildings across the street, no accidental deaths from poorly stored weapons....and potentially much more time to react to the draw of a knife or screwdriver.
The S. Korean student could've easily strapped explosives to himself and blew himself up in a class room. Same outcome.
He could've easily brought two cans of gasoline to the classroom and lit a match. Same outcome.
He could've easily had explosives in his car and blew it up on campus in a crowd. Same outcome.
He could've easily driven his car into a crowd of students at high speed and kept on doing it. Same outcome.
He could've easily made some pipe bombs and placed them strategically around school. Same outcome.
There are many ways he could've killed many people. The point is that if a person is really intent on killing many people he will find a way. If not by gun it will be some other way.
That's true if a potential perpetrator has the means to secretly plan and execute a complicated method of attack to kill themselves as well themselves and others and where there are no restrictions on the purchase of bomb making materials. You aren't likely to find many people fired from their jobs in the morning that come back at noon to blow the office down by an improvised explosive, however. :bluush:

[Han Chan]

So, the killer was a 23 yr old exchange student from S. Korea. As a foreigner he cannot legally buy a gun therefore he had to get them illegally. It will be interesting to hear how he obtained them. I wonder how many people thought it was just another crazy American?


I do not think that all the gun violence in USA is happening because the americans are particularly crazy. However, everywere people go crazy for all sorts of reasons - often jealosy. In countries with easy access to guns things tend to go really bad.

The americans are not crazy, but the gun culture is.

[Pachipro]

The number of victims is going to much less in these types of offenses for the simple reason it is a one on one attack. No spray of bullets richocheting off buildings across the street, no accidental deaths from poorly stored weapons....and potentially much more time to react to the draw of a knife or screwdriver.

You have a point, but....

The americans are not crazy, but the gun culture is.
The gun culture is not crazy. If people want to commit mass murder they will, regardless of the availability of guns or not. You can say the gun culture is crazy because maybe guns are not allowed in your own country and you don't completely understand the US culture, but even if all guns were outlawed tomorrow and none were available, there would still be mass killings on the same scale that would cause others to think we are a crazy country. They would just use other means. It's the society and culture in general, not guns.

[sabro]

This is truly senseless. Condolences, prayers and thoughts for all the victims and the people who love them.

[kirei_na_me]

This happened just an hour and a half drive away from me. Many people I know go there, including someone very close to me(and a member of this forum), Hideki_Matsui_Beast.

Thank goodness he is ok, and everyone else I know is, but there are so many more people who have been affected by this. It's so hard to imagine this happening in this area, which is always seemingly so serene.

Virginia Tech is a beautiful, and normally, peaceful campus. It's in Blacksburg, which is a town much like the one HMB and I are from. It has been very difficult to swallow for everyone around here.

HMB is covering the story for our county paper, which is a weekly publication, and when it comes out online tomorrow, I'll post it so that you all can read it.

So tragic.

Oh, and by the way, in the state of Virginia, an alien can buy a gun if they can prove that they are a resident of the state and if they have never committed a felony.

It's way too easy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/virginia_tech_weapons;_ylt=AgyxNXCK7P4_ZvLaQrIHRfN H2ocA

[Faustianideals]

I'm incredibly sad to hear another shooting happened. 2006 had to have been the worst year for shootings since Columbine, and now this massacre. You know what's really sad? It could have been prevented. Metal detectors and other security measures could have been taken. The security response to the first killings could have been handled much better too. I'm sickened by this attack.

My school took down the metal detectors about two years after Columbine occured. My question is, why did it ever become acceptable to take them down? For ****'s sake this could happen anywhere.

I think gun laws should be more restrictive. I don't know care how badly people need their guns, this **** is ridiculous.

[made of stone]

I'm just so very very sad about all this, I'm dumbstruck, no idea what to say or how I should (or even could) express it.

All meaningless death is a tragedy, pure and simple. I'm heartbroken...been in a daze all day. I've tried to take my mind off it by focusing on the positive here at Jref - welcoming the new members and such - but at the end of the day, it all boils back to this, doesn't it? Think i'll log off pretty soon...

Two things today really affected me.

First was that I hope, pray, and wish that all folk affected by the terrible weather in the US are safe (our dear Uncle not least in my thoughts), and the second, which I became aware of much later, is that i wish I could take back what happened there in Virginia...also where our friends are (both met and unmet.)

I don't know what to say, other than that my prayers will be extra-long tonight...

[Sarapva]

It's heartwarming to know that something that happened in this state (Virginia), even though tragic, is felt by people around the world. Thanks for all your thoughts and condolences. I'm glad no one you knew was hurt, Kerie_na_me. I feel for the families and friends of the people who were, though. Let's also take a lesson from the Amish who, after having a tragic shooting at one of their one-room schoolhouses, took the gunman's family into their hearts and forgave him and them. The boy who did this also has a family who must be grieving and shocked.

[DoctorP]

I'm sick of hearing on the news how people want the school President to step down. They did everything that they could have done in this situation. As far as they knew it was a murder/suicide issue and was done after the first shooting...no one knew what was going to happen next.

As bad as I feel for the families who lost someone, I really feel bad for school staff too. They are being made out to be the bad guys in this.

[maushan3]

As has been said above, Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns. Many countries have outlawed the sale of firearms and their crime went up. Austrailia is one example. After they outlawed the private ownership of guns, crime (not necessarily gun crime) went up substantially as the criminals were now not afraid to rob someone or rob their house as they were pretty sure their victim wouldn't have a gun. Also, the criminal needn't have a gun to commit his crime. A knife or screwdriver will do well as long as he's sure his intended victim is probably not armed.

With the millions and millions of guns already sold in America it will impossible to ban them. Besides, it is guaranteed by the second ammendment. Also, in cities and states that allow you to have firearms in your home, crime has significantly decreased. In fact, I believe there are even a few cities here in the US that request or require all households to have firearms and that the citizens can legally have them on their person. And in all cases the crime in those areas has dwindled to almost nothing. Why? Because criminals are afraid of being shot that's why. It's only when the criminal is pretty sure that their intended victim doesn't have a firearm do they strike.

Again, as in any country, when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns! Guns are forbidden in Japan, but the Yakuza can easily obtain them. Obeika even mentioned that the mayor of Kawasaki was shot yesterday. Same in England and other countries that do not allow firearms. Many cities in the US forbid the private ownership of guns and crime is way up.

I lived for nearly two years in the U.S.; A suburb called Kennesaw in northern Atlanta, Georgia. When I first arrived there, nearly 5 years ago, my dad told me that Kennesaw and another city somewhere in Michigan were the only places in the whole country where having a gun was compulsory for all household owners, but only if you are the owner of the house. Surprisingly, it is the second safest city, I don't remember if in the state of Gerogia or in the U.S. But still, pretty safe. I mean, this suburb was not loaded with money, I mean, it was your typical American suburb, nice homes, but nothing out of the ordinary.

So, Pachipro, you definitely have a point here. That would be a controversial decision, when i first read this, I was wowed, but then I thought it over and it is a smart thing ou suggest here, eh.

Mauricio

[JimmySeal]

To the people who think that they should have cancelled classes after the first incident - how would that have shown any foresight? What were they going to do, send the kids to go hide in their dorm rooms indefinitely? The first killings took place in the dorms. They can't coat an entire college campus with police at a moment's notice, so I fail to see how cancelling classes would have been a logical call. It only looks like it would have been effective now in hindsight.

[DoctorP]

I saw an interview being done by Diane Sawyer (don't get me started on her!) where she was interviewing the school president. He did an outstanding job at answering all of the assinine questions thrown at him.

One thing that he said (paraphrasing) is that they have 9,000 kids living on campus, another 15,000 coming on campus from outside, another 3,000 faculity, and various guests, deliveries, etc... There is no way that they could lock down the school as it is like a small town.

I agree with the action that was taken and I think that when the 2nd call came in that they did an outstanding job of responding.

[Elizabeth]

With the millions and millions of guns already sold in America it will impossible to ban them. Besides, it is guaranteed by the second ammendment. Also, in cities and states that allow you to have firearms in your home, crime has significantly decreased. In fact, I believe there are even a few cities here in the US that request or require all households to have firearms and that the citizens can legally have them on their person. And in all cases the crime in those areas has dwindled to almost nothing. Why? Because criminals are afraid of being shot that's why. It's only when the criminal is pretty sure that their intended victim doesn't have a firearm do they strike.
Because I practically live on the border, Michigan is the only state allowing a concealed weapons permit I have any knowledge of. But following years of steep declines in the late 1990's, the overall rate of murder with a handgun has actually shown steady increases statewide since the legislation was passed in 2001. Assault with a firearm I believe also fell for one or two years but since about 2003, since I moved here, has leveled back out again to pre-carry numbers. Thankfully, the effect overall, though, has been pretty ho-hum or unremarkable. In other words, there hasn't been a dramatic rise in accidents, suicides, crimes of passion or self defense attempts "gone bad" which do more harm to the victim than the perpetrator.

Most violent crimes are not random or stranger on stranger anyway, and there is a good chance they know whether their victim has a firearm from the outset. There will never be a nationwide mandate that every citizen carry a gun because it is simply unenforceable and the effort put into background checks, training in use etc isn't worth the effort considering crime rates have been falling for 20 years even without these measures.

[KirinMan]

I saw an interview being done by Diane Sawyer (don't get me started on her!) where she was interviewing the school president. He did an outstanding job at answering all of the assinine questions thrown at him.
One thing that he said (paraphrasing) is that they have 9,000 kids living on campus, another 15,000 coming on campus from outside, another 3,000 faculity, and various guests, deliveries, etc... There is no way that they could lock down the school as it is like a small town.
I agree with the action that was taken and I think that when the 2nd call came in that they did an outstanding job of responding.

Great point, but as you know the "media" is always going to try and find a scapegoat when something like this occurs.

They want to "justify" their own existence as so called journalists and "investigative" reporting.

Because I practically live on the border, Michigan is the only state allowing a concealed weapons permit I have any knowledge of.

Just to let you know there are more locations than just Michigan.

Carrying concealed weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry#State_laws)

[DoctorP]

Great point, but as you know the "media" is always going to try and find a scapegoat when something like this occurs.
They want to "justify" their own existence as so called journalists and "investigative" reporting.



The only scapegoat needed is the little idiot who killed 32 people and then was so weak that he had to kill himself!

But...I understand what you are saying.

[kirei_na_me]

Here's the article:

http://www.wpcva.com/articles/2007/04/18/chatham/news/news30.txt

It's mainly about the reaction of VT students from our area, so you might not find it of particular interest.

I was just proud of HMB for covering it.

[Elizabeth]

It's heartwarming to know that something that happened in this state (Virginia), even though tragic, is felt by people around the world. Thanks for all your thoughts and condolences. I'm glad no one you knew was hurt, Kerie_na_me. I feel for the families and friends of the people who were, though. Let's also take a lesson from the Amish who, after having a tragic shooting at one of their one-room schoolhouses, took the gunman's family into their hearts and forgave him and them. The boy who did this also has a family who must be grieving and shocked.
No one deserves a tragedy whether it their community is in a peaceful location or harsh and difficult environment. I think the reaction would have been the same basically anywhere so the particular place isn't really that important.

[diceke]

Will this massacre cause a rise in hate crimes against Koreans? It seems that Koreans are worried about it.

[leonmarino]

Sad sad sad.

Equally sad is the fact that there seems to be no consensus on how to prevent this in the future.

[Pachipro]

Most violent crimes are not random or stranger on stranger anyway, and there is a good chance they know whether their victim has a firearm from the outset. There will never be a nationwide mandate that every citizen carry a gun because it is simply unenforceable and the effort put into background checks, training in use etc isn't worth the effort considering crime rates have been falling for 20 years even without these measures.
You post some very valid points Elizabeth and I would be hard pressed to disagree with you.

I'm sick of hearing on the news how people want the school President to step down. They did everything that they could have done in this situation. As far as they knew it was a murder/suicide issue and was done after the first shooting...no one knew what was going to happen next.

As bad as I feel for the families who lost someone, I really feel bad for school staff too. They are being made out to be the bad guys in this.
Can't agree more CC1. The sad part is that, unfortunatley, they WILL be made the scape goat. In America there ALWAYS has to be someone to blame other than the perpetrator and the media will ensure that someone is to blame. You watch. The president of the University will step down as well as maybe the chief of security at the campus when, in fact, they did all that was humanly possible given the circumstances!

If they completely shut down the school after the first two murders and nothing else happened they would be blamed for "jumping to conclusions" and "Going to extremes" in cancelling classes, locking down the school and otherwise disrupting the life of the students. Damned if you do and damned if you don't as the saying goes.

In America there is no accountability anymore as someone, or some thing, must be blamed. In the end, the entire school population may be blamed for failure to make friends with this lone nut or to help him seek counseling. His creative writing teacher may even be blamed and forced to resign for giving him private lessons when everyone was afraid of him!

Now, even if a firecracker goes off near a school there will be a complete lockdown as there will be no more "educated guesses" based on experience. How sad. America has a strange way recently of jumping to extremes.

The fact is NO ONE could have prevented this, now or another one in the future, as no none can predict the actions of an insane person.


@ maushan3: I thought you might be from Atlanta or have lived there with your Falcons avatar. Thanks for your post.

[diceke]

AOL disclosed the gunman's "disturbing" plays.
Umm. More like immature. :okashii:

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/richard-mcbeef-cover-page/20070417134109990001

[Faustianideals]

AOL disclosed the gunman's "disturbing" plays.
Umm. More like immature. :okashii:
http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/richard-mcbeef-cover-page/20070417134109990001
Wow, that was an interesting read.

[Elizabeth]

If they completely shut down the school after the first two murders and nothing else happened they would be blamed for "jumping to conclusions" and "Going to extremes" in cancelling classes, locking down the school and otherwise disrupting the life of the students. Damned if you do and damned if you don't as the saying goes.
Actually it is not at all unusual for schools to close for credible bomb threats, other health/safety hazards or even bad weather for heaven's sake. A few universities made that decision yesterday in light of the massacre. Even a single murder, to me, seems like one of the most serious things that can afflict a campus.

I'd certainly stay at home if there was a killing next door and a suspect on the loose. A workplace would most likely also have shut down although the logistical difficulty of coordinating the same response on the space and administrative complexity of a campus is probably why it wasn't in this case....

[maushan3]

AOL disclosed the gunman's "disturbing" plays.
Umm. More like immature. :okashii:
http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/richard-mcbeef-cover-page/20070417134109990001

I got a quick glance at the killer's writings and virtually wanted to cry just thinking about the twisted thoughts this fella had. Definitely sad, this dude definitely wanted revenge, it's all shown in his 'plays'.

Mauricio

[DoctorP]

Can't agree more CC1. The sad part is that, unfortunatley, they WILL be made the scape goat. In America there ALWAYS has to be someone to blame other than the perpetrator and the media will ensure that someone is to blame. You watch. The president of the University will step down as well as maybe the chief of security at the campus when, in fact, they did all that was humanly possible given the circumstances!



I doubt that the school president will step down. He told GMA that he would not, and then the night of the mourning he received a standing ovation from the student body and those who attended. He is well respected within that community. Hell, he might be able to run for office later based upon his reaction to this incident and the media frenzy.

[Uncle Frank]

it will show the "systems" in many areas failed and this guy fell through way to many cracks. There will be plenty of blame to go around and many who deserve blame for what happened. When all is said and done, lets hope something beyond finger pointing is done and changes are made to prevent future tragedies like this. It sure sounds like this one could have been stopped when you hear all the facts & details.

Uncle Frank

:okashii:

[Duo]

Here it goes again...now the blame and the focus will shift towards the killer and the school management missing the real issue. Even in the columbine shooting the same thing was done, let's look magnify the troubled minds of the killers to avoid the real issue. This is guy isn't the only one who's got problems in the US or other countries in the world. There are countless paranoid,delusional, mentally unstable individuals in this world who may have it against everyone. However, such school shootings and rampages, are only happening in the US. For me there is one simply reason....the availability of guns, the loose gun control, and the glorification of the gun culture in the US. I've been told that young boy scouts are taught how to fire guns since early adolescence. As to why that is necessary I will never understand.

How about facing the real issue hands on. When people drive cars, that are a potentially dangerous item to the safety of others and that of the driver, a license is needed, how about creating a license for carrying a gun, I don't mean a permit and all, but going through a course to learn how to use the weapon and somewhere were qualified personnel can screen individuals if they are right to get such a license or not. I think it was pachipro who said that this couldn't be avoided and many of you have said this as well... pachipro was even listing the different possible scenarios that the killer here could have used to attack the school. He mentioned making bombs or using gasoline and so forth. I tend to disagree. It is not the same. Carrying out such other activities requires more planning, more effort, more conciousness, while buying a gun like you are buying milk can be done in a whim and then slowly simmer the thoughts and ideas of carrying out such a spree. I think also this has become a learned behavior. There are so many precedents that now every other possible future school shooter has already a written scenario to follow.

Those of you who are for the right to bear arms and what not can deny it all you want, but let's face it using a gun is the easiest way to kill someone; I doubt this guy could have done this much havoc if he had a knife or had to use alternative methods...

There is no political or societal will in the US to make amends to this problem; something could have been done, had to be done, after columbine, and now 32 young people close to age are gone. It's easy to say that oh this is horrible, oh this is sad, but unless you are affected directly by this tragedy you can never know the real pain and sadness. To have young people be killed like this needlessly, people with hope, dreams, potential, important to others and so forth, is just such an incredible for lack of better terms "waste"

In Italy a couple of months ago a police commissioner was killed during a riot after a soccer game. Right away stadiums were closed for months until they became safe, some will remained closed for months to come, new laws were put in place to curb such violence; real action was taken. Making memorials and having flags flying half mast doesn't suffice. It's really a dishonor to the memory of those fallen in this incident to still do nothing about this issue. I don't like to jab at the US but I mean when the country's vice president shoots someone in the face during a hunting trip and all talk show hosts make jokes, fun, and light of the situation what is to be expected? Perhaps the men in power and other influential media prevalent personalties should start to give the right example by making campaigns for careful gun use...or no gun use at all and such things like that.

And I'm not going to accept the usual "you don't understand, this is an american thing, the right to bear arms and all".......yeah right. Since this is the Japan forum just a little example. Japan had such a deep sword culture that society was even built upon it, some could argue, and when reforms came they forced a ban on it and it worked. I'm not saying to ban guns and all, but something strong can be done, there is just no will.

[Sukotto]

I've heard the guy was an English major;
so writing plays or screen plays would be a normal thing.

That they are reported to have violent content is also not that big a deal in and of itself.
Someone like Quentin Tarentino has a lot of really violent movies, but that
doesn't mean he goes out and kills people. Or horror movie writers. etc.

[KirinMan]

it will show the "systems" in many areas failed and this guy fell through way to many cracks. There will be plenty of blame to go around and many who deserve blame for what happened. :okashii:

The blame in my opinion lies with the shooter and none other. He killed the other kids, not the school. Not every disturbed person goes out and kills people.

I do not accept the reasoning that the school somehow had a responsibility in this matter. I also disagree that there are "many" who deserve blame. In a way I could say the blame lies with every person that lives in America, including you Uncle Frank. I hope you understand my point there.

Schools are not prisons, yet the reaction to this shooting is that the school had to do more to "protect" it students. Hindsight is always 20/20. It is unreasonable to expect anyone or any facility to be able to protect people from random acts of violence like this. People even get killed in prisons.
Spreading the "blame" around makes it easier for victims and people on the sidelines to accept this insanity.

If anyone wants to put the blame somewhere I suggest they "blame" the authors of the US Constitution, they are the one's who included the "right to bear arms" in it.

[Sukotto]

The blame in my opinion lies with the shooter and none other.


i agree with this, however.

it is not the end of the story.
what conditions lead to people loosing it like this?

like wars, typically do not occur in a historic vaccum.
and Columbine, with the ***** jerk wads who constantly harrassed the shooters there, people do not live in social isolation.

while every person and condition is unique,
they are bound to repeat if we do not learn from them.

[JimmySeal]

Judging from the fact that he moved to the US at age 8 and not sooner or later, and that his English was still pretty poor as a college senior, I highly suspect that the harrassment that shaped this kid almost surely took place in primary and secondary school. By the time he got to college, the situation was pretty much out of anyone's hands. They did try to get counseling for him, and beyond that, what can you do really? You can't assume somebody's going to go on a killing spree just because they're really creepy.

[Han Chan]

I have now seen parts of Cho's video "manifesto". He was obviously psychotic and paranoid. His paranoid ramblings suggests that he could even have been schizophrenic.

I once had a friend who became schizophrenic. In the beginning my friends and I meerely thought that she was depressed. However, gradually it bacame clear that she had at least three seperate personalities. One of her personalities, the one which most people knew, was quite nice. But I tell you: If you tried to confront her with the fact that she needed help, she would shift into a very scary person, threathening and suicidal at the same time.

Her parents did not take her condition serious so it took many months before she finally received help. When I met her a few years later when she was under medication, she said that she could remember that she sometimes thought that my friends and I looked liked wolwes ready to attack her.

Cho was very sick, but if no-one around him had any previous experience with psychotic persons, it is not so surprising that noone understood how serious his condition was.

[Elizabeth]

How about facing the real issue hands on. When people drive cars, that are a potentially dangerous item to the safety of others and that of the driver, a license is needed, how about creating a license for carrying a gun, I don't mean a permit and all, but going through a course to learn how to use the weapon and somewhere were qualified personnel can screen individuals if they are right to get such a license or not.
At the very least there should be universal registration and background checks for handgun sales. That is a proposal even the gun lobby can favor. Nothing more will be done on a federal level until the Democrats have a more comfortable majority in Congress. The roots for this were sewn in 1993 when they lost power for 12 years after passing the Brady Bill. And according to Pres Clinton, largely due to that vote. While average Americans have the Iraq War, economy and other things on their mind as well gun supporters can think of nothing but action threatening to "take away" their firearms. And believe me, they do remember...:okashii:

[KirinMan]

[QUOTE=Elizabeth;458106]At the very least there should be universal registration and background checks for handgun sales. QUOTE]

Sorry I'd take it a step further and outlaw the darn things all together. Background checks, while probably useful for the occasional felon or disturbed person, really would not stop or prevent anyone from waiting until they received their weapon before using it.

Stop all sales of handguns in the US now. Stop the sale of ammunition now.

Background checks while a noble idea, will not prevent this from happening again. Currently nothing can.

[DoctorP]

Universal registrations and background checks would not have stopped this ***** from doing what he did at VT.

[Elizabeth]

Universal registrations and background checks would not have stopped this ***** from doing what he did at VT.
Well, he had been declared "mentally ill" by a Virginia judge in 2005 and involuntarily admitted to a facility, evaluated only to be released so a check sure should have caught at least a half dozen warning signs.

[diceke]

Can anyone provide a link to the full-length video? Thanks.

He seems like a very narcissistic person, he staged the whole event just for his infantile attention seeking purpose. Pathetic.

[Faustianideals]

Can anyone provide a link to the full-length video? Thanks.
He seems like a very narcissistic person, he staged the whole event just for his infantile attention seeking purpose. Pathetic.
I'll look at everything a second time, but for the time being I don't think he was doing it to be famous. Had anyone paid attention to this kid they would realize how many warning signs he was sending out. People don't seem to understand how vicious american youth can be. It's become socially acceptable to bully people. The teachers I have encountered can hardly even recognize it now. They look to the victims of bullying as the people who should be punished. Imagine what that would do to someone who had become screwed up in the head after years of being picked on?
I doubt I will hear much about how people treated this kid like garbage. More so crap about how he was creepy, delusional, and psychotic. It's the same way I was treated by my goddamn peers.
I was made into the bad guy at my school. Not once was I treated like a human by the people harassing me. In addition to that, my peers would watch these other students mess with me and think their behavior was acceptable, even funny at times.
Everything about bullying has gone down hill since Columbine. I'm seriously disgusted. I actually thought I was the problem for quite some time, and that put me into a severe depression. Had it not been for a friend of mine opening my eyes, I would probably be dead right now.
No, I don't think murder is acceptable. What he did was terrible, and I am sorry for every one of the people who were shot by him.

[Sukotto]

Bullying aside,

People I know who have it and even a doc have told me that schizophrenia
usually develops, if it does, in the early 20s or so.
How does one know if one will develop it?
Being quiet and keeping to oneself doesn't mean anything.

[Pachipro]

I think it was pachipro who said that this couldn't be avoided and many of you have said this as well... pachipro was even listing the different possible scenarios that the killer here could have used to attack the school. He mentioned making bombs or using gasoline and so forth. I tend to disagree. It is not the same. Carrying out such other activities requires more planning, more effort, more conciousness, while buying a gun like you are buying milk can be done in a whim and then slowly simmer the thoughts and ideas of carrying out such a spree.

According to the latest reports, Cho has been planning this for some time. He even had to wait 30 days before he could buy the second gun. So he put alot of effort, planning, and conciousness into it before carrying it out.


Those of you who are for the right to bear arms and what not can deny it all you want, but let's face it using a gun is the easiest way to kill someone; I doubt this guy could have done this much havoc if he had a knife or had to use alternative methods...


Wrong. This was NOT the worst school massacre in US histors as the press would have you believe. Gun massacre yes. The worst school massacre in US history was in 1927, in Bath Township, Michigan on May 18, 1927 which killed 45 (http://www.answers.com/topic/bath-school-disaster) people with most of them being children. Please read it! It was not done by a guns, it was done by a bomb any by a man who lost it when the Township imposed such a high property tax that he lost his farm (taxes again!).

Therefore, as I have said time and time again, if a nut wants to cause a massacre he will, regardless of the availability of guns. They will find a way. If Cho couldn't get guns, he would've found another way as he was hell bent of killing as many people as he could. He probably would have killed many more if he had strategically placed bombs on campus, so please stop blaming the gun culture in the US for this massacre.


And I'm not going to accept the usual "you don't understand, this is an american thing, the right to bear arms and all".......yeah right.



If anyone wants to put the blame somewhere I suggest they "blame" the authors of the US Constitution, they are the one's who included the "right to bear arms" in it.

Well that shows a severe ignorance of the history of the USA and the reason for the second ammendment to the US constitution giving the people the right to keep and bear arms.

The reason the founding fathers gave us that right is because back then, and still today, people in England were forbidden to keep and bear arms as they might use them against the corrupt monarchy of ole' King George. As the common folk had no arms, they couldn't fight back against a corrupt government and the government could do as they damn well please and the hell with the people. The same thing was in force in Japan where the common folk could not have swords.

The US colonists did not want that to happen to them and fought a war against their mother country, England, as they knew of the corruption and the tyranny they could impose on an unarmed population (The forced tax on tea was the straw that broke the camel's back). They fought and won. A rag tag army against the most powerful Army in the world at the time! And the United States was born with more freedoms given to the populace than any other country in history then and now!

Afterwards, they gave the right to the common people to keep and bear arms should a government become corrupt, and a corrupt government would therefore, be a little more careful in imposing their will against the wishes of the people as the common folk could now fight back. Why do you think England and other countries, including Japan, still forbid the populace to have arms? For this very reason. An unarmed populace is defenseless against a corrupt government, or an invading Army for that matter.

But I am afraid the outrage of an ignorant populace to this deed will call for another look at this most important ammendment. However, if they try and repeal the second ammendment, I think there will be another war in this country that the government probably will not win in the long run. All one has to do is look to Iraq today to see that a rag tag militia can cause havoc and many deaths against another most powerful military in the world. In my opinion it will never succeed in the US if they try to take all the guns away. Too late for that. Besides, with over 250 million guns, and the ability to make IED's it will be damn near impossible.


Since this is the Japan forum just a little example. Japan had such a deep sword culture that society was even built upon it, some could argue, and when reforms came they forced a ban on it and it worked.

Thus they have the Gun and Sword Control Act or something of that nature. However, even in such a strict gun control country like Japan, the mayor of Nagasaki was killed the other day by gun. No matter what you say, you can never prevent killings by gun if the perpetrator is intent of using one for his deed, even in Japan.

[Han Chan]

I doubt I will hear much about how people treated this kid like garbage. More so crap about how he was creepy, delusional, and psychotic. It's the same way I was treated by my goddamn peers.

Dear Thor

I am quite convinced that Cho was psychotic. However, I also think that some of his agression comes from having been bullyied and abused (posibly sexually).

We are many who experienced bullying during our time in school. I was bullyied very badly, so I totally sympathize with you. Though we both went through a bad time, I guess none of us became violent killers because of that.

[Elizabeth]

According to the latest reports, Cho has been planning this for some time. He even had to wait 30 days before he could buy the second gun. So he put alot of effort, planning, and conciousness into it before carrying it out.
He could obviously have tried. On the other hand, dealing with a person as mentally unstable as Cho apparently was there would be much less chance of it succeeding as spectacularly. Same is true for children in other school shootings.

There would still be gun homicides in this country with a handgun ban. There just won't be 13,000 Americans dying from them every year.

[Pachipro]

There would still be gun homicides in this country with a handgun ban. There just won't be 13,000 Americans dying from them every year.
Quite true. Instead, in such a violent society as America, there would be 13,000 homocides from other means. If someone wants to kill, they will. If not by gun, then by other means like poison, knife, bomb, etc. etc. The problem goes much deeper than guns. Why can't most people understand that?

BTW I do not own, never have, and hopefully never will have to own a gun. But in the aftermath of Katrina, when the populace was terrorized by thugs who stole guns, I am giving second thought to at least having a shotgun on hand in order to protect my family in a time of disaster. For, like in New Orleans, there will be those who want want you have, including your food.

[Homerduff]

I saw the video to where he is making his statement of the murders + a video of his roommates describing him as a very silent guy who never said a word. He did weird things like stalking girls, but was never seen with another guy or girl. From what I can make of the movie, it seems like he does it because he is being bullied and he hates the rich people. But it seems like his roommates actually had a lot of patience with him and tried to get friends with him, but he just didnt let anyone get involved with his life. So im afraid he was just mentally a very ill person..

I also feel sorry for his family actually, I heard they are staying at a hospital because they are in shock..

[Faustianideals]

I saw the video to where he is making his statement of the murders + a video of his roommates describing him as a very silent guy who never said a word. He did weird things like stalking girls, but was never seen with another guy or girl. From what I can make of the movie, it seems like he does it because he is being bullied and he hates the rich people. But it seems like his roommates actually had a lot of patience with him and tried to get friends with him, but he just didnt let anyone get involved with his life. So im afraid he was just mentally a very ill person..
I also feel sorry for his family actually, I heard they are staying at a hospital because they are in shock..
After being bullied for awhile, you just stop caring about having friends and what not. That's just from my personal experience though.

[diceke]

I doubt I will hear much about how people treated this kid like garbage. More so crap about how he was creepy, delusional, and psychotic. It's the same way I was treated by my goddamn peers.
I was made into the bad guy at my school. Not once was I treated like a human by the people harassing me. In addition to that, my peers would watch these other students mess with me and think their behavior was acceptable, even funny at times.

He and you are not alone with this kind of bad experiences. But did the injustice turn you into a "Jesus Christ", or a "martyr", on a special mission to indiscriminately massacre people? Would you videotape yourself ranting against "rich kids", or pose for the camera, so everyone can watch you and admire you? To me, that's narcissism, a grandiose sense of self-importance. He got others involved in his delusion of grandeur.

[made of stone]

Quite true. Instead, in such a violent society as America, there would be 13,000 homocides from other means.

I think there's an awful lot to talk about here, and hopefully it might prove to be a discussion that helps us understand other nationalities' viewpoints a lot better.

For me though it's a bit early and emotive to get into this yet. I think there's a great risk of a knee-jerk on either side of the debate, which can further polarise opposite points of view.

Just mho.

[sabro]

Right now there are still families dealing with the shock and grief of the event. There are still students in the hospital recovering. There is still an investigation. All the names are trickling out to the media. Big important questions are still being asked about the incident.

The gun control debate can wait for another time and place.

[SushiShin]

Cho Seung-hui, this will be a name i will never forget, he is South-Korean guy and he is the guy who killed the 32 people. Now the motive is why does a guy who always been quite and friendly and never talked with other people suddenly a dangerous armed guy?? Simple: the guy had troubleshooting with the people who were on that school and he had problems with students of the same grade and same class. He was abandonned from the world, there was nobody who wanted to talk with this guy. He was lonely. Now this guy has inspiration too from many things like in a video that he made whil the first shooting was allready over he made a photostill where he was shown with a hammer this reminds us all of the movie Oldboy. I wish that people also remember this guy because after all we are people and we are brothers and sisters. It is pity that he did this very silly thing, blast everyone dead but yeah this always happens daily everywhere in the world. Now the guy murdered himself too, then nobody will discover what the real problem was :(
i feel so sorry for the murdered people and also for Cho Seung-hui who led a lonely life. im not defending this guy but im telling you this because i want that you all know why people become like this.

[KirinMan]

Afterwards, they gave the right to the common people to keep and bear arms should a government become corrupt, and a corrupt government would therefore, be a little more careful in imposing their will against the wishes of the people as the common folk could now fight back. Why do you think England and other countries, including Japan, still forbid the populace to have arms? For this very reason. An unarmed populace is defenseless against a corrupt government, or an invading Army for that matter.


Pachipro I know very well the reasoning behind the why, I learnt that in ES for cripes sake. :bluush: :wave: (Meant to be taken as a joke here, I am pretty sure you were adding this to help clarify my statement to those that really don't know about the constitution.)

The point is though, American's have corrupted what the intent of what that particular clause of the constitution has written in it. So they are to "blame". American's abuse that piece of paper to twist whatever meaning they want out of it. I highly doubt that the author's had this shooting in mind when they created the amendment allowing ownership of weapons. I'll bet a million bucks if they had the foresight, they would have left it out, or at the least included background checks as well.

I could have missed it here, but noone have brought up anything about his family. Being from an Asian country I wonder how his parents dealt with the information that their child could potentially be mentally ill? Did they refuse to accept it? Did they even know? Were they proactive in trying to get help for their son? Or did they expect the school to take care of things for them?
If anyone has any information about this please share it.

[Sarapva]

However, I also think that some of his agression comes from having been bullyied and abused (posibly sexually).

I agree with this - I worked in a psychiatric hospital for a while, and one thing I learned there was that kids (and adults) who commit violent crimes are people who have been abused themselves. The plays Cho wrote seem to be screaming this out - it seems to me that the counselors must have seen this. He obviously needed help that he didn't get. And in elementary and high school when a person seems to be different or not on top of things, they're an obvious target for more abuse.

I was also bullied and teased in school, and I also thought it was my fault for not being more outgoing, but now I see it was just the "animal instinct" to attack the sick or weak. As humans we should get beyond this and reach out to someone who seems to need some help, or at the very least not attack them just because they're different or can't defend themselves. I can see how a person like Cho could have tolerated this until he couldn't tolerate it anymore. That would make anyone psychotic.

[sabro]

You know, if people are picking on you, bullying you, or calling you names, there are many things that you can do besides going on a shooting rampage. If you are hurting, get help. If you are ill, seek care. If you are depressed, find someone who can help you through it. If you are shy or lonely... again, you can do something about it. For all the mean, selfish, stuck up, bigotted, and rotten people in the world, there are others who will open up to you and talk to you, help you, guide you, befriend you... The positive people should be the ones you seek out. Positive influences in what kinds of movies, music and literature are also another way to cope. If you want to wallow in the abuse, isolate yourself in some dark, hellish pit and indulge in psychopathic revenge fantasies... then don't expect things to get better. You have to seek out the good in people.

[Anohito]

I haven't noticed that anyone in this thread has directly acknowledged it, but under Virginia law, it was not illegal for Cho to buy those guns because he was a resident alien (the fact that he withheld certain details that would have been inconvenient for him is another matter). I also haven't noticed that anyone has pointed out the prevailing right-wing reaction to this massacre. The Gun Cult and its useful idiots have been (figuratively) jumping up and down, screeching "See! See! More guns! More guns! People need more guns to defend themselves!" Yeah, right, college students need guns the way they need more booze. Hey, give them all guns and the next time there is a booze-fueled riot on some campus, they can all shoot themselves!!! Problem solved! Oy gevalt.

[DoctorP]

Actually many kids on the school shooting team stated that if they had only had a permit to carry a concealed weapon maybe a few less people would have died. I'm not sure that I agree with that though.

[KirinMan]

You know, if people are picking on you, bullying you, or calling you names, there are many things that you can do besides going on a shooting rampage. If you are hurting, get help. If you are ill, seek care. If you are depressed, find someone who can help you through it. If you are shy or lonely... again, you can do something about it. For all the mean, selfish, stuck up, bigotted, and rotten people in the world, there are others who will open up to you and talk to you, help you, guide you, befriend you... The positive people should be the ones you seek out. Positive influences in what kinds of movies, music and literature are also another way to cope. If you want to wallow in the abuse, isolate yourself in some dark, hellish pit and indulge in psychopathic revenge fantasies... then don't expect things to get better. You have to seek out the good in people.

Sabro it is a good point, yet I wonder how much an influence his upbrining had on him.

As everyone here pretty much knows the Asian cultures have a different view towards issues of feelings and openness. Was he able to discuss his problems with his family? Was he truly alone?

I hope that some mental health care professional takes the time to research his family history and upbringing, in the hope of being able to help other immmigrants from Asian cultures like his understand, identify and deal with mental health issues if they occur within a family.

So many of us here experience at one time or another culture shock from the huge differences we find in the Asian culture, I wonder if this was a case of culture shock, or had its roots in it.

I wrote previously that I only blame the shooter, not the school or the authorities. Now as more information comes out, I can not point the blame on anyone. It's too easy to point fingers and to somehow assuage our feelings that other's were responsible as well. I think this was a mentally sick person, and I feel sorry for all the victims, including him as well.

I am pretty sure that there is quite a bit of soul searching going on right now within many people. I hope they can find peace as well.

[Anohito]

Actually many kids on the school shooting team stated that if they had only had a permit to carry a concealed weapon maybe a few less people would have died. I'm not sure that I agree with that though.

"The school shooting team..." Consider the source.

[KirinMan]

"The school shooting team..." Consider the source.
I agree with CC1 here, even if it was the school shooting team, would you want a bunch of university aged students, trained or otherwise, walking around campus with loaded weapons?

I dont think that would be a solution. It's kind of easy to say afterwards that "I wish I had done this" or "if I had been there I could have prevented that", you never know they could have been added to the body count as well.

[Anohito]

I agree with CC1 here, even if it was the school shooting team, would you want a bunch of university aged students, trained or otherwise, walking around campus with loaded weapons?

I dont think that would be a solution. It's kind of easy to say afterwards that "I wish I had done this" or "if I had been there I could have prevented that", you never know they could have been added to the body count as well.

Perhaps the English-language expression "consider the source" does not travel well. My point was that the people on the school shooting team are just the sort of people who would be eager to have lots of heavily-armed people on campus. I am not eager to have such a thing happen. See my earlier statements indicating the dangers of mixing guns and booze.

[KirinMan]

Perhaps the English-language expression "consider the source" does not travel well. My point was that the people on the school shooting team are just the sort of people who would be eager to have lots of heavily-armed people on campus. I am not eager to have such a thing happen. See my earlier statements indicating the dangers of mixing guns and booze.

Sorry about that, it travels well enough verbally. I took it literally:p

[Sarapva]

You know, if people are picking on you, bullying you, or calling you names, there are many things that you can do besides going on a shooting rampage. If you are hurting, get help. If you are ill, seek care. If you are depressed, find someone who can help you through it. If you are shy or lonely... again, you can do something about it.

This is true for people who are not seriously mentally ill, but for children who are abused (sexually or physically or both), something happens to them mentally that changes what most of us think of as "normal" thinking patterns. If they don't get help, this just gets worse and can erupt finally in violence.

Obeika has a point also, though - Cho's family was Asian and he was obviously in the middle of two cultures. That could have caused confusion about how to deal with his situation.

[sabro]

The vast majority of the mentally ill and of survivors of childhood sexual abuse don't go on to commit murder. Most Asian Americans don't kill. Most paranoid schizophrenics don't commit murder. Many do actually get help. In spite of the demons that may have troubled Cho, he alone is responsible for his actions. It seems like several people did try to help, there were many referrals for counselling and the police tried to get him committed.

There is a lot of speculation about what could have been done differently. There will be a lot of second guessing about everything-- about whether the campus should have been shut down-- about how the campus and law enforcement responded to warning signs. But remember: This was a safe campus in a safe community. Perhaps if there were more trained and armed campus police around something could have been done differently, but I doubt having a legion of armed students would make a healthier or safer campus.

I don't think NBC should have released so much of the video and photo material... it seems irresponsible and gratuitous. Many of the families and survivors saw the disturbing images and were exposed to his hateful words.

[diceke]

I agree with this - I worked in a psychiatric hospital for a while, and one thing I learned there was that kids (and adults) who commit violent crimes are people who have been abused themselves. The plays Cho wrote seem to be screaming this out - it seems to me that the counselors must have seen this. He obviously needed help that he didn't get. And in elementary and high school when a person seems to be different or not on top of things, they're an obvious target for more abuse.
I was also bullied and teased in school, and I also thought it was my fault for not being more outgoing, but now I see it was just the "animal instinct" to attack the sick or weak. As humans we should get beyond this and reach out to someone who seems to need some help, or at the very least not attack them just because they're different or can't defend themselves. I can see how a person like Cho could have tolerated this until he couldn't tolerate it anymore. That would make anyone psychotic.
Cho needed help, cause he was different, and other people would abuse him? :okashii:
Like what kind of help could professionals have offered? You know, counselors and psychiatrists are pretty incompetent. They can "treat" you, but they can't "cure" you. After intervention, social injustices won't go away, and the problems are still there.

[maushan3]

Yes, he was bullied. I just read an article that states that he had a speech problem, that he talked like he had something in his mouth and therefore avoided talking so nobody would know about his issue. A ex-feller of his in middle school tells about one time in English class and it was his time to read, so he started reading and talked really weird and all this people started harrassing him and telling him things like "Go back to China" and stuff. So, yeah, it is pretty sad; the saddest thing here is that school shootings have happened since like a decade ago and students still don't understand that bullying can lead to this, they don't understand how much damage they put into someone.

I have a pretty mild stuttering problem. Nothing big, I think many people don't even notice it, but sometimes it comes and might be noticeable, like I get stuck on a word or something and, yeah, I've been told about this by people but I don't let it get to me, I just smile and tell them to shut up. I will be getting speech therapy soon.

Mauricio

[sabro]

I'm asian, a minority in a majority latino neighborhood... I stuttered and had speech problems. I was bullied... stabbed once, spat on, burned with a book of matches, jumped on a couple of occasions... Still no excuse for murdering dozens of people.

[DoctorP]

"The school shooting team..." Consider the source.


You should note that I didn't agree with the statement, only repeating what was said!

As for blame...why aren't the parents being held responsible? They should have surely known what was going on.

If people strictly think that this was due to teasing and bullying...maybe you should think twice before moving to a foreign land, marrying a local, and having children...then choosing to live in that country long term. I guarantee that your kids will go through this first hand!

[Dutch Baka]

Teasing and bullying are a part of life (sad, but that's the way it is), your parents and your school are the ones who should take teach you how to deal with it, the same they should teach you how to deal with other things in life.

And from a certain moment you should take care of it yourself.

[diceke]

So, yeah, it is pretty sad; the saddest thing here is that school shootings have happened since like a decade ago and students still don't understand that bullying can lead to this, they don't understand how much damage they put into someone.

Bullying does not lead to this, if it did, I would have killed more than 33.:blush:
You can't reduce it to simple cause and effect, something is wrong with that line of reasoning.

[Anohito]

You should note that I didn't agree with the statement, only repeating what was said!

As for blame...why aren't the parents being held responsible? They should have surely known what was going on.

If people strictly think that this was due to teasing and bullying...maybe you should think twice before moving to a foreign land, marrying a local, and having children...then choosing to live in that country long term. I guarantee that your kids will go through this first hand!

I was aware that you said "I'm not sure that I agree with that though." I was providing a specific reason for disagreeing with the statement or at least considering it to be of highly dubious value.

As for the bullying aspect (this is a general observation and not in direct response to CC1), it is true, as far as it goes, that bullying does not justify murder in response, but bullying someone with psychological problems certainly does not help the situation. Indeed, it ought to be obvious that it is like playing with fire.

[Sarapva]

Cho needed help, cause he was different, and other people would abuse him? :okashii:
Like what kind of help could professionals have offered? You know, counselors and psychiatrists are pretty incompetent. They can "treat" you, but they can't "cure" you. After intervention, social injustices won't go away, and the problems are still there.

I think Cho is an example of something that we in this country (and I don't know how it is in other countries) need to learn to deal with properly. Counselors have helped lots of people - they aren't all incompetent. Unfortunately there are too many instances of children being treated badly - like an animal that is mistreated, they become angry and hostile, and understandably so. I don't think bullying by your peers, just by itself, could drive a person to murder, but with constant mistreatment from the time someone is a child and into adolescence, with no one stepping in to show them that there are caring people in the world who actually care about them, a person could understandably think no one is on their side and that the world is a hostile place, with no hope that there could be anything good in it for them.

[Sukotto]

A friend has an online zine, this issue
on violence.

One item I've found interesting so far is:
parents having to work, work, work,
in the economy that is doing oh, so well,
skyrocketing even (if just some certain #s-blockmarket are looked at)
to stay ahead
and make things grand for the small sliver wealthy,
and where's
the time for the kids.
Family Values? Thanks a lot corporate america.
When overtime is mandatory.
Or regular time is underpaid.
Maybe college graduates won't have such problems?
not. They do too.

http://flag.blackened.net/ati/freespeech/americanviolence/

[Elizabeth]

As for the bullying aspect (this is a general observation and not in direct response to CC1), it is true, as far as it goes, that bullying does not justify murder in response, but bullying someone with psychological problems certainly does not help the situation. Indeed, it ought to be obvious that it is like playing with fire.
I thought this story on CNN was interesting. A bullied and abused kid with hair trigger instinct control that didn't "intend" to kill anyone but went to school with guns to "get someone's attention." The principal tries to 'hug' him, he freaks out. Wham ! Bam ! One thing follows another. Next thing you know a person is dead.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/04/21/principal.shooting.ap/index.html

[maushan3]

Bullying does not lead to this, if it did, I would have killed more than 33.:blush:
You can't reduce it to simple cause and effect, something is wrong with that line of reasoning.

People react different.

Mauricio

[Uchite]

What a horrible, senseless tragedy! I am have been watching this story since it happened and following it closely. There are so many unanswered questions:


1. Why did he shoot the first victim and the guy in the dorm? And what was their relationship with him?

2. Why did he choose the engineering building to conduct his massacre? Did something happen there with students or faculty? Was he aspiring to be an engineer but was not accepted into the school of engineering?

3. What was his relationship with his parents like? Was he constantly being compared to his sister and her "successful" career?

4. Who in the world was he talking to on the video? He keeps saying "you, you"... Who does he mean?

5. Why are we not hearing from any of the bullies that bullied him in high school (and possibly at VT)? Where are they and how do they now feel?

6. Why did VT not go into an immediate lockdown when they learned a murder had occured on campus and that a killer was on the loose?

7. Why did the police allow the release of the video tape in the first place? Did NBC seek permission from them first? Or did they go just and air it hoping for ratings?

8. What else is on or said on that video that is not being shown or mentioned about? There has got to be more to it than that. No names? No incidents?

9. Was he on medication? If so, what kind?

10. Why weren't the concerns of his teachers and other students taken seriously?


I make no excuses for what this deranged man did.

I just feel there are a lot of unanswered questions.

It can't be rationalized by saying there needs to be more gun control, more policing, more anti-depressents for people, more border security, more immigration laws and last but not least, more government!

[Elizabeth]

People react different.
Mauricio
It isn't only the bullying, obviously. It's that combined with an ongoing history of rejection and alienation, depression or a major mental illness like psychosis, schizophrenia. These people also seem to have a secret fascination with death
and the weaponry to get there (guns, firearms, explosives, etc).

If this profile fits anyone here, please let us know now....:p :bluush:

[Elizabeth]

Here's the article:
http://www.wpcva.com/articles/2007/04/18/chatham/news/news30.txt
It's mainly about the reaction of VT students from our area, so you might not find it of particular interest.
I was just proud of HMB for covering it.
Thanks for posting. There have been so many school and mass shootings but I still can't believe another one of these happened. If you don't get local reaction, it's very easy to lose sight of the real people that are going to take years to recover. I wonder how everyone is going to react to getting back to class tomorrow ?

[Anohito]

Thanks for posting. There have been so many school and mass shootings but I still can't believe another one of these happened. If you don't get local reaction, it's very easy to lose sight of the real people that are going to take years to recover. I wonder how everyone is going to react to getting back to class tomorrow ?

Unfortunately, such killing sprees now seem to be an inevitable part of American culture, not a predominate part, but something that will occur with some regularity. One could argue that such things are an inevitable part of human nature, but the particular form we saw in the Virginia Tech killings seems rather American, for a variety of reasons.

Also unfortunately, the people who need to recover from this event, physically and/or psychologically, will have to deal with those who like to sneer about a "cult of victimhood" and cavalierly say things such as "That's in the past--time to get over it and move on."

[Elizabeth]

Unfortunately, such killing sprees now seem to be an inevitable part of American culture, not a predominate part, but something that will occur with some regularity. One could argue that such things are an inevitable part of human nature, but the particular form we saw in the Virginia Tech killings seems rather American, for a variety of reasons.
Also unfortunately, the people who need to recover from this event, physically and/or psychologically, will have to deal with those who like to sneer about a "cult of victimhood" and cavalierly say things such as "That's in the past--time to get over it and move on."
Oh, there's no danger of that in these cases. If anything, the victims are encouraged not to forget both by the media coverage and the continuation of such incidences. Even as school violence overall is down, the strong cultural endorsement of guns makes it almost as easy as possible for killers to carry out their acts on an ever grander scale. :(

[Pachipro]

A few messages from our Founding Fathers, as relevant today as then:

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." -Thomas Jefferson

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States." - Noah Webster, An Examination into the Leading Principles of the federal Constitution (1787) in Pamphlets to the Constitution of the United States (P. Ford, 1888)

"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." - Luke 22:36 quoting Jesus of Nazareth, from KJV

"They that can give up liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria

"To disarm the people (is) the best and most effectual way to enslave them..." -George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined...The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might
have a gun." -Patrick Henry

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." - Japanese Admiral Yamamoto, 1941

[Elizabeth]

If I lived in a frontier society or a country with a weak military and no other means of defense I'd very likely own and proudly carry a firearm as well.

That doesn't address the question of laws that could prevent tragedies like we've just witnessed. Or at the least, regulations to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. Measures which even the National Rifle Association I believe supports...

[ArmandV]

If I lived in a frontier society or a country with a weak military and no other means of defense I'd very likely own and proudly carry a firearm as well.

That doesn't address the question of laws that could prevent tragedies like we've just witnessed. Or at the least, regulations to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. Measures which even the National Rifle Association I believe supports...

Would you mind if we put a sign on your front lawn that read,

"This is a gun-free household"?

[Elizabeth]

Would you mind if we put a sign on your front lawn that read,
"This is a gun-free household"?
The apartment complex where I live is very safe and I do have other means of defending myself, so no not really. It would probably be taken as a bad decoy anyway. :p

The better question is why people who have them don't advertise the fact if they really want to keep criminals at bay....

[Uchite]

Outstanding post Pachipro! :bravo: :clap:


Please have at least one large cold Asahi on me! :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :gulp:

[Duo]

A few messages from our Founding Fathers, as relevant today as then:
"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." -Thomas Jefferson
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States." - Noah Webster, An Examination into the Leading Principles of the federal Constitution (1787) in Pamphlets to the Constitution of the United States (P. Ford, 1888)
"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." - Luke 22:36 quoting Jesus of Nazareth, from KJV
"They that can give up liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria
"To disarm the people (is) the best and most effectual way to enslave them..." -George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined...The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might
have a gun." -Patrick Henry
This is just propaganda for independence and self rule. Quite useful when the Brits and the Red coats loom over your ambitions. The founding fathers said a lot of inspiring things....wasn't Thomas Jefferson the one who wrote all men are created equal and all that good stuff....but in the end black people were considered as 3/5 human and he himself had monticello full of slaves and indulged in many sexual escapades with his female slaves....

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." - Japanese Admiral Yamamoto, 1941
I don't think this something to be proud of...especially now in 2007...this is a statement to condoning the prevalence of ignorance in a civilized country and society.

Furthermore I don't understand what the right to bear arms has to be with taking appropriate measures so that "suspect" individuals can get a gun so easily. The guy was in a mental institution for god's sake...if there had been some kind of laws and regulations requiring to purchase a gun then maybe this might have been avoided. Background checks that only look into your criminal record is not enough. There are limitations even on the first amendment, that of freedom of speech, i.e. one can not yell fire in a movie theater and so forth, so why not make limitations on the right to bear arms as well...

Lastly, I think the ammo question also has to be answered...if you can buy bullets at wal mart for 25 cents each and what not, that's a recipe for disaster, in fact in this shooting the killer had shot 175 bullets....

[Elizabeth]

Furthermore I don't understand what the right to bear arms has to be with taking appropriate measures so that "suspect" individuals can get a gun so easily. The guy was in a mental institution for god's sake...if there had been some kind of laws and regulations requiring to purchase a gun then maybe this might have been avoided. Background checks that only look into your criminal record is not enough.
As a technical matter, Cho was never confined -- only involuntarily commited and immediately released to outpatient care. Federal law requires any one that has been declared mentally ill to be flagged in a national background database. But Virginia law does not and it is precisely this loophole that under Virginia law allowed a deranged man to escape detection. A seemingly minor discrepancy that went unnoticed until today.

Either way, though, he wouldn't have been disqualified from buying a gun privately or through a gun show.

[Anohito]

This is just propaganda for independence and self rule. Quite useful when the Brits and the Red coats loom over your ambitions. The founding fathers said a lot of inspiring things....wasn't Thomas Jefferson the one who wrote all men are created equal and all that good stuff....but in the end black people were considered as 3/5 human and he himself had monticello full of slaves and indulged in many sexual escapades with his female slaves....

I don't think this something to be proud of...especially now in 2007...this is a statement to condoning the prevalence of ignorance in a civilized country and society.

[snip]

The Gun Cult is quite fond of overwrought propaganda, posturing, rhetorical fallacies and numerous other types of intellectual dishonesty. Quoting Thomas Jefferson is a typical example of that. Jefferson had other tendencies that might be embarrassing to "proper Christian patriots" (and their useful idiots). For example, he said many highly negative things about Christianity and organized religion in general, although it is nearly impossible to get American Christians to acknowledge that.

Also, the Benjamin Franklin quote make no sense in the context of a "gun rights" argument. What exactly is the "safety" involved? The Gun Cult pretends that they want to amass guns in order to "defend" themselves, that is to make themselves more safe. But it seems that as long as they can throw around words like "freedom" and "liberty" in a way that they find useful, they will do it.

No, the real issue here is not "self-defense". It is no coincidence that the American ultra-nationalists who are using the malicious "dissent equals treason" Big Lie are also groups who think they have the right to amass as many guns as they want. The aim is clearly to create a heavily-armed, ideologically-oriented (right-wing) paramilitary force that can be used to enforce the American ultra-nationalist politcal agenda.

[Uncle Frank]

With all the guns out there in America, there is no possible way to get rid of them. Outlaw them all tomorrow and you will see gun shelves emptied today and everyone out digging a hole tonight to bury their gun. Distrust of our government, military, and police and the desire to hunt and protect ourselves will always keep many Americans armed and ready. When my life or anyone else's is in danger, I don't plan to call 911 and wait 10 minutes for help to show up(or a lot longer), the 45 auto on my hip will solve the problem. As for a sign in front of the house, I like this one.

Uncle Frank

:cool:

[Elizabeth]

The sign idea will never work because people are not going to be honest. If criminals don't threaten someone with a warning, they're going to go down to the little old lady at the end of the block.

If you want self defense, take a class or look into nonlethal means of debilitating without the danger of a fatal shot. Saves a possible innocent life of mistaken identity and no worries about facing trial for attempted murder.

The hunting culture is dying a slow death with the disappearance of rural America. That's about the only bright spot in this otherwise very, very bizarre and sordid picture.

[Uchite]

Would you mind if we put a sign on your front lawn that read,
"This is a gun-free household"?

LOL! :giggle:

You are cracking me up! :beer:

That would be an invitation for even more crime and violence where I live, which has one of the highest crime rates in all of the United States. Right after Katrina, just about everyone was armed to the teeth. You had to be! The criminals had guns, were using them and had stolen many of the ones they had. The law abiding citizens were simply protecting themselves, their families, their pets (which are family too!) and their property (whatever was left of it!). For weeks there was very little law and much disorder. The law abiding citizens had to take the law into their own hands in many cases.

[sabro]

I was suprised to find out that the whole rampage in the science building lasted only 9 minutes. Police were there in 3 minutes.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268420,00.html

[ArmandV]

LOL! :giggle:
You are cracking me up! :beer:
That would be an invitation for even more crime and violence


Taaa-daaa! My point exactly!

[Anohito]

LOL! :giggle:

You are cracking me up! :beer:

That would be an invitation for even more crime and violence [snip

The Gun Cult has so many ways of saying "I want you dead."

[Anohito]

The sign idea will never work because people are not going to be honest. If criminals don't threaten someone with a warning, they're going to go down to the little old lady at the end of the block.

If you want self defense, take a class or look into nonlethal means of debilitating without the danger of a fatal shot. Saves a possible innocent life of mistaken identity and no worries about facing trial for attempted murder.

The hunting culture is dying a slow death with the disappearance of rural America. That's about the only bright spot in this otherwise very, very bizarre and sordid picture.

If the criminals go to the little old lady down the street, the Gun Cult won't care. It will just provide them with more opportunities for "Gotta have more guns!!!" propaganda. Or, the Gun Cult can blame the victim by saying "she should have had a gun."

I'm not so optimistic about the death of the "hunting culture" (as you put it). Even if they do go the way of Tyrannosaurus Rex, they will probably take a lot of people with them.

By the way, here is how a man named Charles Martin in Batavia, Ohio exercised his Second Amendment rights and defended his property rights:

http://www.cincinnatidealer.com/content/archivecategory/2006/03/1/
http://www.timesreporter.com/index.php?ID=52113

[leonmarino]

I used to be totally against gun ownership, but this thread together with my interest in 17th century Holland has influenced my opinion. I want to share my view, which I will try to balance as much as I can.

You see, 17th century Holland is often seen as the pinnacle of society as it should be. There was great wealth, high literacy rates, its pretty much decentralized government was secular (we had NO monarchy back then), there was tolerance towards people with other religions, there was some form of a welfare state etc.. The people were proud to be a citizen of their towns/states.

One of the things that was very important for the Dutch was "social control" (which is a literal translation from the Dutch sociale controle), which basically means that with the lack of a central government and police state, people tended to look out for each other. A requirement for such a society was the fact that people should be armed, at the very least in their homes; if your neighbour gets robbed, you take your sword and slash the thief. In that sense, it is very noble to be armed. "Social control" allowed communities to engage in trade without too much hassle because of a mutual understanding of what principles people stand for, backed by a community of armed fellow men.

From that perspective, it would be a form of fighting symptoms if you illegalize guns; the cause of the problems are the people not being able to handle guns. If you put a ban on guns you take away the right of the people to protect themselves and their loved ones against such deranged and dangerous people.

However, how much is being done to educate the people about the danger of guns? Is one taught to handle one? I believe that in Texas you just need to show some ID, and then you can buy one gun every month. That's twelve guns a year, which are unregistered, spawing an incredible amount of fire-arms. For what do you need a new gun every month? What I am trying to say that the legislation around guns do not seem to be coherent with the thought of protecting society.

Furthermore, and more importantly, there is little "social control" in the US, or in any western country. Protecting society has become the task of the police (or private, for-profit security companies), education is the task of schools and other institutions, and caring has been replaced by anonymous charities, welfare checks and psychiatrists. With increased social and geographical mobility, fueled by increased immigration and globalization, people simply do not have the will and opportunity to invest time and effort into their troubled neighbours. Alienation occurs and some people, not being able to handle their lives, go "postal" (remember that one?).

It would be too easy to say that by outlawing guns the problem is solved. No way. Apart from the political impossibility, there are just too many guns around now. There has to be some change of mindset in all of us so we can better evaluate the state of our society and our neighbourhoods, and the people that live near us. Every one of us has a responsibility here.

The nation state, being the main disseminator of culture in present times, also has a major responsibility. The people should be educated not only to get high grades and to perform financially, but also to take the time to keep an eye out for your fellow citizen. The government could take a leading example in this by imposing at least some restrictions (to align the strategy "protecting society" with ease of gun ownership), by registering the purchases of guns and requiring some sort of license. People need a driver's license to drive because cars are supposedly so dangerous, why not a license to handle something that is created to kill, or at least harm?

PS: "Tolerance" in 17th century Holland is relative. One religious sect was still prosecuted throughout the period, and Jews had no civil rights. In other countries however, there was a certain state religion and all the other religions were prosecuted. Jews in the rest of Europe had no rights at all. Also, before someone starts talking of slave trade: that was after the great economic boom in Holland, and represented only a small part of its financial performance. It is regrettable, but it is not correct to state that Holland's "Golden Century" was built on slavery.

[Sarapva]

Thanks for that explanation, leonmarino. I agree that people in western nations need to get back to a more community-based existence and take more social responsibility, instead of leaving things to "authorities". I don't know yet what I believe about gun ownership, but it's very interesting that crime is down in places where everyone owns a gun.

[Elizabeth]

Thanks for that explanation, leonmarino. I agree that people in western nations need to get back to a more community-based existence and take more social responsibility, instead of leaving things to "authorities". I don't know yet what I believe about gun ownership, but it's very interesting that crime is down in places where everyone owns a gun.
I personally would have to warn against the concepts of citizen arrests or vigilante justice in what leonmarino advocated. We do, though, have thousands of community watch programs in the US that patrol/keep vigil for any unusual neighborhood activity in close coordination with sheriffs or other professional law enforcement but without taking on their executive functions of interferring with an ongoing crime. Any group of individuals or security firm that is not charged or duly appointed to detain suspects is going to run up a lot of civil liberties problems getting into the business as amateurs.

[sabro]

Crime is not down specifically in places where everyone owns a gun. In general crime came down everywhere in the US after the 80's and 90's.

[Sukotto]

to reiterate, not that anyone here is disputing my previous post (since the corporate media is louder than any of us)

May 2, 2007
Historical Amnesia - Worst U.S. Massacre?



The reporting of the Virginia Tech massacre reveals that an ignorance of American history is not only a problem affecting American students but extends to our most influential newsrooms, even those with archives extending back to the 1800s....




There were much bloodier massacres before Blacksburg:

-- In 1860, Bret Harte, a well-known California writer, had just begun his writing career, working as a newspaper reporter in Arcata (known then as Union). Harte was expelled from Humboldt County because he recorded the Gunther Island Massacre of Wiyot Indians, committed on Feb. 26, 1860, when a small group of white men murdered between 60 and 200 Wiyot men, women and children. The massacre was encouraged by a local newspaper. Extermination was once the official policy of the California government toward Native Americans, as Gov. Peter H. Burnett stated in 1851: "That a war of extermination will continue to be waged between the two races until the Indian race becomes extinct, must be expected..."

-- On April 12, 1864, at Fort Pillow, near Memphis, Tenn., Confederate troops under Gen. Nathan Forrest massacred 227 black and white Union troops with such ferocity that an eyewitness Confederate soldier said, "blood, human blood, stood about in pools and brains could have been gathered up in any quantity...Gen. Forrest ordered them shot down like dogs and the carnage continued. Finally our men became sick of blood and the firing ceased."

-- On April 13, 1873, 350 miles northwest of New Orleans in Colfax, Grand Parish, La., 280 blacks were victims of a group of armed white men that included members of the White League and the Ku Klux Klan. Known as the Colfax Massacre, it was said to be sparked by contested local elections, although more generally its cause was white opposition to Reconstruction, which in 1875 resulted in a legal ruling, United States vs. Cruikshank, an important basis of future gun-control legislation, because it allows that "the federal government had no power to protect citizens against private action (not committed by federal or state government authorities) that deprived them of their constitutional rights under the 14th Amendment."

-- In 1913, during another nationally publicized action known as the Ludlow Massacre, more than 66 people were killed, including 11 children, and two women who were burned alive. Sparked by a strike against the Rockefeller family-owned Colorado Fuel and Iron Corporation by the mostly foreign born Serb, Greek and Italian coal miners after one of their union organizers was murdered, it eventually involved the Colorado National Guard, imported strikebreakers and sympathetic walkouts by union miners throughout the state. The union never was recognized by the company, and a U.S. congressional committee investigation failed to result in indictments of any militiaman or mine guard.

-- In 1921, a year when 64 lynchings were reported, the African American Greenwood business district of Tulsa, Okla., was the site of shooting deaths of at least 40 people, most of whom were black, although the undocumented death toll is said to be closer to 300. This site was then known as the "Negro's Wall Street," and was home to 15,000 people and 191 businesses. The rampage took the form of a riot, and was caused by economic tensions, particularly sparked by an article in the Tulsa Tribune regarding an alleged rape incident between a black shoe shiner and a white elevator operator. Because of this riot, Tulsa became the first U.S. city to be bombed from the air, when police dropped dynamite from private planes to break it up. Whites took possession of most of the land, and the site has become part of Oklahoma State University's Tulsa campus.



.... A member of the New York Times' editorial staff is Brent Staples, a black writer who is an expert on the Tulsa massacre. There is no excuse for such historical amnesia on the part of those who have taken upon themselves the serious task of informing the public.
http://counterpunch.org/blank05022007.html

[Hideki_Matsui_Beast]

I was just proud of HMB for covering it.

:cool:

KNM, you are such a sweetheart. :love:

[Hideki_Matsui_Beast]

This happened just an hour and a half drive away from me. Many people I know go there, including someone very close to me(and a member of this forum), Hideki_Matsui_Beast.
Thank goodness he is ok, and everyone else I know is, but there are so many more people who have been affected by this. It's so hard to imagine this happening in this area, which is always seemingly so serene.
Virginia Tech is a beautiful, and normally, peaceful campus. It's in Blacksburg, which is a town much like the one HMB and I are from. It has been very difficult to swallow for everyone around here.
HMB is covering the story for our county paper, which is a weekly publication, and when it comes out online tomorrow, I'll post it so that you all can read it.
So tragic.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/virginia_tech_weapons;_ylt=AgyxNXCK7P4_ZvLaQrIHRfN H2ocA

It really was unexpected. Blacksburg is such a quiet town. Even though there was a more low-key shooting earlier in the school year, it was still very hard to believe that something this awful could happen in such a peaceful location.

I just felt lucky to have not been there at the time. I walk by the area where the shooting took place all the time, when I'm not skipping class.

Sorry for posting twice in a row. I think my JREF skills are rusty.