Virginia Tech incident and Japan

[Mahoujin Tsukai]

Many of us would have of the incident at Virginia Tech by now.

Have there been similar incidents in Japan?

[epigene]

The most horrid one I remember:

Osaka school massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre)

There are others, but I can't recall at the moment.
The one in Osaka is probably is the largest in terms of the number of victims.

[JerseyBoy]

I think VT incident is unique American things. Some Americans on this forum will not like my comment; but, after spending years here, I am not really surprised to see that type of incidents happening in this country, given the ease of purchasing guns and the inclination to condone violence in general.

[maushan3]

Yeah, I do think this is an American thing, even though, some years back there was a similar massacre in Germany about some dude that was obsessed with a video game, I think it was a Tom Clancy or something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_massacre

Mauricio

[Reita-kun]

Yeah, the VT massacer was the worst in US school history. I felt really sad about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre

[Mahoujin Tsukai]

I think VT incident is unique American things. Some Americans on this forum will not like my comment; but, after spending years here, I am not really surprised to see that type of incidents happening in this country, given the ease of purchasing guns and the inclination to condone violence in general.
AFAIK, guns are readily available in the USA, even to minors. Some states like Virginia also have lax gun-control laws. I'm not sure on the condoning of violence though.

[DoctorP]

Yes guns are dangerous and America is dangerous. Let's all move to Europe and go watch a soccer game...much safer right?

Point being that there are dangers all around you everywhere you go. No where is completely safe and there are crazy people everywhere who could snap at anytime. I mean no disrespect to our European breathren, but let's not turn these threads into an attack on America. Let's stick to the discussion at hand.

[leonmarino]

Yes guns are dangerous and America is dangerous. Let's all move to Europe and go watch a soccer game...much safer right?It's football. Not soccer. :p Just kidding.

[thistle]

I don't think there have any incidents like that in Japan involving guns.
Yes, it could have happened anywhere in the world, it happened in
Scotland, Germany, Russia....but the chance of it happening in the U.S.
are just so much higher. And it will happen again and again and again,
because I don't think the U.S. will ever rest restrict gun laws.

[KirinMan]

Point being that there are dangers all around you everywhere you go. No where is completely safe and there are crazy people everywhere who could snap at anytime. I mean no disrespect to our European breathren, but let's not turn these threads into an attack on America. Let's stick to the discussion at hand.

Since this happened at V.T. I talked to my wife and we were discussing gun violence. I have been living here in Okinawa for quite a few years and the last gun related murders that I can remember were over 15 years ago when there was a "war" going on here between different factions of Yakuza.

One innocent teenager and one Yakuza were killed by gunfire. But outside of that I can honestly not remember any incidents of gun related murders here in Okinawa in all the years I've been here. One of the Yakuza murders actually happened about 50 meters from the apartment we were living at that time. We actually had some hard-core Yakuza living in our building as well. (Great drinking buddies, but that is another story:p )

My family sometimes wonders why I stay here or why I've stayed here as long as I have, but when crap like this happens in the states it just reinforces my belief that Okinawa is a pretty safe place to live.

Because of the gun control laws here in Japan I really have a hard time thinking that a mass murder like the one at V.T. could happen here. There are plenty of mentally ill violent people here, but access to weapons is next to zero.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Because of the gun control laws here in Japan I really have a hard time thinking that a mass murder like the one at V.T. could happen here. There are plenty of mentally ill violent people here, but access to weapons is next to zero.
Unless, that is, you have a hunting license.

Some info on hunting licenses in Japan (http://home.att.ne.jp/sea/FieldHunting/fhh/license.html) (in Japanese only, sorry!)

[KirinMan]

Unless, that is, you have a hunting license.
Some info on hunting licenses in Japan (http://home.att.ne.jp/sea/FieldHunting/fhh/license.html) (in Japanese only, sorry!)


That's true, however as you know the average citizen can not pruchase handguns.

I will say that it has been any awfully long time since I have had to answer questions about the "gun" culture in the US. It has been a rather big topic of discussion around lunch the past few days.

If memory serves me correctly the last time I had to talk about it was about the time right after the Columbine massacre.

The time before that was when Hattori-kun got shot for not being able to understand the difference between the words freeze and please.

[Mikawa Ossan]

That's true, however as you know the average citizen can not pruchase handguns.
True, but most people are eligible for at least applying for a license. Once you have the license, all bets are off. I know of at least one person here in Japan who committed suicide by use of a gun. Guess how he got his gun.

This incident hasn't affected me much personally. I had one talk about it, but we didn't discuss the gun culture in America or anything like that. Instead we were talking about how the root cause probably started when he was much younger, most likely when he moved to America, and it was a shame that he couldn't get help at the time (to paraphrase quite a bit).

[KirinMan]

True, but most people are eligible for at least applying for a license. Once you have the license, all bets are off. I know of at least one person here in Japan who committed suicide by use of a gun. Guess how he got his gun.


At least where I live even though people could apply for the license there is really no place for them to actually hunt. People here in Okinawa, at least the people I know, actually abhor guns.

They can not even fathom owning one, them let alone even holding one.

[Mikawa Ossan]

I'm not a big fan of personal gun ownership either, but I think it's important that we don't deceive ourselves into thinking that it's next to impossible to get a gun in Japan, because the truth is, the only real hurdle is obtaining your license. In honesty I have no idea how difficult it really is to pass the test, but I can't imagine it's too difficult, given the search responses I pulled up from 狩猟免許 on Yahoo.

[KirinMan]

I'm not a big fan of personal gun ownership either, but I think it's important that we don't deceive ourselves into thinking that it's next to impossible to get a gun in Japan, because the truth is, the only real hurdle is obtaining your license. In honesty I have no idea how difficult it really is to pass the test, but I can't imagine it's too difficult, given the search responses I pulled up from 狩猟免許 on Yahoo.

You make a good point. I used to own both rifles and handguns when I lived in the states. I hunted game nearly every year since I was a youngster.

However I sold them all before returning to Japan. Now I can not imagine owning either.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Now,
In Sagamihara-shi, Kanagawa
A yakuza kills another yakuza with a pistol.
And he has a handgun and escapes into an apartment.
Fortunately, there is not a hostage.
http://www.mainichi-msn.co.jp/shakai/jiken/news/m20070421k0000m040089000c.html

[pipokun]

The apartment is the public one where another yakuza rents...

[a51ts4]

I just finished watching Battle Royale 2. I must say, my eyes were opened to how differently the life in the US can be. Living here and watching other peoples points of view of how the US is, I can easily see how such incidents happen.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Yes guns are dangerous and America is dangerous. Let's all move to Europe and go watch a soccer game...much safer right?
Thank you, thank you, very much.

Not even Red Sox fans and Yankees fans do that much damage to each other's hometowns and properties as I've seen at some European soccer/football matches.

If you take the guns out of the hands of the law-abiding citizenry, then the only people left with guns will be the criminals.

VT didn't happen because of gun laws, video games, or Marilyn Manson. It happened because the guy was psychologically disfunctional and the people around him did nothing but alienate him and exacerbate his problems.

Try reading this thread (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29950) specifically the second page, where VT is discussed.

From what I understand, London's gun laws are incredibly strict, and that not even the police carry them when on duty. The downside to this is that the London criminal underworld is vast and well-armed, and therefore, incredibly powerful.

As an historian, I am fascinated by weapons, especially firearms. I have fired everything from live .50 cal rounds from a Springfield M1861 Civil War replica to an M1 Garand to a Sig-Sauer handgun. I've held AK-47s and M-16s (with their firing pins removed) and I know how to build a British Sten from household parts. I also personally own an actual Springfield M1842 smoothbore percussion musket that was sawed-off and fired during the Civil War.

I believe guns are an important part of the American heritage. The Colt Peacemaker (aka the Great Equalizer) was to the gunslinger as the katana was to the samurai. Every American farmer had a musket during the Colonial era, which is why the British had such a difficult time fighting a guerrilla war against American militia units (although they had much better success in conventional battles, admittedly).

Perhaps we are a violent people, yes, but no more violent than any other. We can debate the histories of each other's nations, and point to vicious acts of terrorism and sedition right up until the present day. VT is no evidence that American society is decaying, any more than the gas attacks in the Japanese subway system years ago or any other horrible events in other countries would indicate internal decay.

What is important to consider is how this tragic event occurred and to try to understand what exactly drove Cho to homocide at the expense of his own life. Parallels should, and must, be drawn with Columbine, and therefore, an unbiased understanding of American teenage society, complete with a fair assessment of popularity trends and the impact of alienation and ostracism on individuals deemed "untouchable".

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

金嬉老事件

When I knew Virginia case, it is "kinkirou jiken" that I remembered first.
It was the murder case that a Zainichi caused.

A criminal killed a yakuza,
He ran away to a Onsen Ryokanl and The lodging visitor became a hostage.
"racial discrimination", he insisted on a reason in a crime.
He became a hero in Korea after penal servitude in Japan.
However, he did attempted murder again in Korea.

[KirinMan]

If you take the guns out of the hands of the law-abiding citizenry, then the only people left with guns will be the criminals.

Not quite, the police will have them as well.

However it is impossible to think that everyone who owned a gun would sell them or turn them in if they became outlawed. Hell prohibition didn't work too well either.

VT didn't happen because of gun laws,

You are right here too, not because of gun laws but a lack or absence of laws controlling the sales of guns. If it was illegal to purchase handguns in the US who knows maybe those kids would still be alive today, but hindsight as you know is 20/20, too many what if's to think about.

From what I understand, London's gun laws are incredibly strict, and that not even the police carry them when on duty. The downside to this is that the London criminal underworld is vast and well-armed, and therefore, incredibly powerful

However you don't see them walking into a school and shooting 32 people either, just because the laws are strict and the cops don't carry them, doesn't mean they don't have them now does it?

Even here in Japan gun control laws are very strict, and gangsters get their hands on weapons as well, and the police carry firearms too. But there aren't nearly the same amount of gun related crimes here in Japan than elsewhere. It is a fact that gun related crimes or deaths here in Japan are among the lowest in the entire civilized world.

The average person has no need for weapons here in Japan, nor in the USA either. It is my opinion the society in the US that has created the impression that people need to have guns to protect themselves.

To me it is a poor reflection on the society in the US that creates the atmoshpere that people need to fear one another to the point that they have to own a firearm.

I wrote earlier that I used to own firearms, mostly for hunting, but I sold them for a number of reasons, so I understand the thinking behind how many people feel about firearms.

Besides being used to kill someone or something firearms have no other purpose or use. Unless you are in to target practice. I also can not see a hunter using a handgun for killing a deer either, it just isn't practical. I know I've hunted before and probably will do so again in the future, however I'll be using a shotgun or a rifle, big difference.

Perhaps we are a violent people, yes, but no more violent than any other.

I am going to put some facts here and the link that they came from, everyone can make their own judgement on whether or not the US is a violent country or not. The following quote is from this link;

Some Facts about guns (http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm)

In 1999, there were 28,874 gun-related deaths in the United States - over 80 deaths every day. (Source: Hoyert DL, Arias E, Smith BL, Murphy SL, Kochanek, KD. Deaths: Final Data for 1999. National Vital Statistics Reports. 2001;49 (8).)

That means there are about 2 1/2 VT incidents in total deaths every single day of the year in the US. Not a violent society?

That totals out to over 870 VT incidents in total numbers of gun related deaths each and every year in the US. Not a violent society?
What other society, outside of the current "war-zones" or places of social conflict have that many gun related deaths per year?

I'm sorry it isn't just "criminal's" that are causing that, it is the average person as well. I also don't hear the uproar from "average" people or politicians that those numbers are not acceptable. could you image 870 Virgina Tech shootings every year? Well according to the facts that is what is happening in the USA now, total numbers of deaths that is.

I haven't heard of soccer hooligans killing over 25,000 people every year, have you?

Firearm Related Deaths in the United States and 35 other high and upper middle Income Countries (http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/27/2/214.pdf)

Back to this quote;

If you take the guns out of the hands of the law-abiding citizenry, then the only people left with guns will be the criminals

I for one would take my chances with the crimminal's and cops having firearms with numbers like that.

Oops I forgot, I do already, I live in Japan.:relief:

[GodEmperorLeto]

You are right here too, not because of gun laws but a lack or absence of laws controlling the sales of guns. If it was illegal to purchase handguns in the US who knows maybe those kids would still be alive today, but hindsight as you know is 20/20, too many what if's to think about.
Red herring. The overwhelming majority of gun crimes are committed with illegally purchased firearms. Explain how making guns illegal will curb the illegal sale and purchase of illegal firearms, especially when it has been proven to be easier to purchase a firearm illegally than legally? You can't.

In addition, the majority of people who legally purchase firearms do so for hunting or self-protection purposes and never fire them in anger or self-defense.

However you don't see them walking into a school and shooting 32 people either...
Again, red herring. The reason, as I already stated, that these sorts of crimes occur is because of culture not because of the availability of weapons. In a different culture or environment, Cho might have simply jumped in front of a train. Or he could have run people over with a car. More people are killed in car accidents than by guns each year. Does that mean we should outlaw cars?

Even here in Japan gun control laws are very strict, and gangsters get their hands on weapons as well, and the police carry firearms too. But there aren't nearly the same amount of gun related crimes here in Japan than elsewhere. It is a fact that gun related crimes or deaths here in Japan are among the lowest in the entire civilized world.

To me it is a poor reflection on the society in the US that creates the atmoshpere that people need to fear one another to the point that they have to own a firearm.
I've lived and gone to school in a rough, mixed racial neighborhood where many people owned guns, and almost all of them were illegally purchased. Most people had these guns because they were afraid of other people with illegal guns. But the point was that they had guns illegally in the first place.

My point is, if you take guns away from people, you are only going to give more power to the gun-runners, as well as disarm the law-abiding populace, leaving them to be preyed upon.

As for the police, most cops in the United States exist purely to protect their own interests, and not serve the general public. Police corruption is rampant throughout the country, although it is much more subtle and insidious than the overt corruption you see in other countries.

Many Americans believe firearms are our heritage, and I agree with this claim. The Bill of Rights guarantees us the ability to possess and use them to form a volunteer militia, of which many Americans get together, especially in the Southwest, to practice, drill, and patrol. Like I said, the gun is an integral part of American history. It was with us in the Wild West as well as the Revolution.

Besides being used to kill someone or something firearms have no other purpose or use. Unless you are in to target practice. I also can not see a hunter using a handgun for killing a deer either, it just isn't practical.
Again, as someone who grew up in neighborhoods of questionable safety, I will be honest when I say that I absolutely disagree with you. Criminals are much less likely to prey upon armed storeclerks and citizens. Every once-in-a-while they do, and a bloodbath ensues, however, that is usually because they do not expect the law-abiding citizen to possess a firearm in the first place. Why? Because of the fact that they are a supposed law-abiding citizen. Because people believe the law-abiding citizens should be disarmed.

Incidentally, most law-abiding citizens know how to use guns more effectively than criminals. That's why inner-city hospitals get so many broken wrists in the emergency room. Because everybody wants to be Snoop-Dogg and bust a cap in somebody by shooting their Desert Eagle sideways.

That means there are about 2 1/2 VT incidents in total deaths every single day of the year in the US. Not a violent society?

Most of these deaths occur in the inner city among lower-income brackets where the culture makes it seem like the most efficient way to success is through crime. Drug dealing and gun-running go almost hand-in-hand, and most gun-related deaths are, in fact, related to gang-feuds and the drug market. And again, almost all guns used in these crimes were illegally acquired in the first place.

One of the things I study is the growth and development of La Cosa Nostra in the United States, and one of the largest businesses that organized crime has run since the 1970s is illegal firearms smuggling and gun racketeering. More firearms are distributed in U.S. cities from the back of a van by someone with an Hispanic or Russian accent than from a inside a store.

The problem is one of causality. These statistics support the argument that guns cause the crimes. Indeed, only a small percentage of the American population is involved in these crimes. You are right to say that VT (and Columbine) are small in comparison to what happens on a daily basis in cities across America. But you are erroneous in assuming that these incidents are indicative of gun-problems across the United States. They are exceptional from the standard gun-related crime in almost every variable (except the fact that they involved firearms), including location (middle, white, suburban America), victim demographic, felon demographic, and the suicidal nature of the attacks.

Guns (and a lack of gun laws) is not causing the problems. Yes, by making almost all firearms illegal, you will be preventing future Columbines and Virginia Techs. But you will not be preventing the vast bulk of other firearms-related homocides. The cities will still be havens of criminal activitiy, and you will be harming the law-abiding citizens of American cities to create the illusion of idyllic safety for a bunch of myopic, white, middle-class suburbanites who feel guilty about walking on the other side of the street when they see a black person coming the other way, but they do it anyway.

I for one would take my chances with the crimminal's and cops having firearms with numbers like that.
Oops I forgot, I do already, I live in Japan.

Japan's worst neighborhoods are nothing compared to South Philly, or Camden and Newark, NJ. This skews your perception of the problem. Maybe you should look back at the sword laws that wracked Japanese history during the Meiji era and the violent responses they provoked. I'm not sure if any accurate parallels can be drawn between the two cultures in this regard, but it would definitely be something interesting to pursue in a comparative sense.

One of the first things Nazi Germany did was confiscate all of the guns the citizenry possessed. Why do you think that was?

[a51ts4]

I agree with GodEmperorLeto on the statement that guns aren't really the underlying problem. Yes, they were used to harm others. The person using the weapon is making the choice, not the gun. Gun laws will just lower gun related deaths. There are still plenty of other weapons, including homemade ones which can cause just as much damage. Looking towards why the person did whatever would yeild better data for prevention against these types of attacks than to just solely banning guns.

[Pepe]

Brazil anyone? Now they have a gun problem!

[KirinMan]

In addition, the majority of people who legally purchase firearms do so for hunting or self-protection purposes and never fire them in anger or self-defense.

While I may disagree with you about some of the points you make in you posts on this thread I do respect your opinion.

The biggest thing I have a problem with in this quote is the "or self protection" part. American's in general have gotten to the point where they do not feel safe in their homes anymore and society in general is to blame for that.

The underlying social problems that force people into having to purchase a weapon for self protection are in my opinion unforgiveable.

I also agree that guns are not the problem in and of themselves, of course it is the people. Guns don't kill anything, we all know that. However because of the history of gun ownership in America things will never change. People in general no longer fear the consequences of committing a crime.

The moral and ethical fiber of the country has changed so much that many people ito me no longer have or seemingly are not taught self respect, respect for others, and self responsibility, nor respect for life. Everything comes down to me first, or I can't be held responsible for my actions because of my social status, lack of education, or some other excuse.

This is not an attack on America in anyway shape or form, just a few observations that I have seen as an American living overseas.

[GodEmperorLeto]

While I may disagree with you about some of the points you make in you posts on this thread I do respect your opinion.
Thanks.

American's in general have gotten to the point where they do not feel safe in their homes anymore and society in general is to blame for that.
The underlying social problems that force people into having to purchase a weapon for self protection are in my opinion unforgiveable.
Actually, I agree with you 100% here, but these social problems aren't something that can be solved by the government, in my opinion, but by people getting up and solving it together.

People in general no longer fear the consequences of committing a crime.
People only resort to violent crime if they believe they have no better alternatives. Things have to get so bad that they lose any regard for the value of life. It isn't about consequences so much as it is about having nothing to lose.

The moral and ethical fiber of the country has changed so much that many people ito me no longer have or seemingly are not taught self respect, respect for others, and self responsibility, nor respect for life. Everything comes down to me first, or I can't be held responsible for my actions because of my social status, lack of education, or some other excuse.
This is not an attack on America in anyway shape or form, just a few observations that I have seen as an American living overseas.
Again, you and I are right in line on this one. I agree with you 100%.

Where we differ is our conclusions, then, it seems.

[nocomment1]

Yes guns are dangerous and America is dangerous. Let's all move to Europe and go watch a soccer game...much safer right?
Point being that there are dangers all around you everywhere you go. No where is completely safe and there are crazy people everywhere who could snap at anytime. I mean no disrespect to our European breathren, but let's not turn these threads into an attack on America. Let's stick to the discussion at hand.


good point:cool:

i wanna go watch some soccer:wavey:

[caster51]

american history and Gun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F55cEoRilVI