Vegetarians......Yes or No

[KirinMan]

Well there have been a number of posts on any number of different threads here discussing the topic of vegetarian's, their diets and how they view others who do and do not eat meat.

Personally if a person makes a choice and wants to be a vegetarian, well and good however I do not appreciate some, and I emphasize some here, vegetarians that wish to impress their way of life as being the "only" way to live.

I also enjoy eating meat and vegetables as well, in my opinion we humans were meant to eat meat. That is my opinion, please share yours as well!

What do you think? What are your opinions about vegetarians vs those that are not and the issues surrounding vegetarians and their choice.

[aokami]

I respect vegetarians who respect other's wishes to eat the way they choose, and also respect themselves. Some of my friends went through waves of recurring vegetarianism in high school; motives usually falling under the animal cruelty defense. I have no problem with that, but if being a vegetarian becomes blindly neglecting your body's nutritional requirements based on ideals and not taking the precautions to supplement lost nutrition it is wrong. The people I knew who took the time to research good habits stuck with veg. in the long run and those who did not quit pretty quickly as they felt like crap when they did it. There are plenty of ways to do it right, but many people cannot be bothered to take the time to plan something so important to their health.

None of this is firsthand vegetarian experience, as I love meat far too much to quit. So much for Nirvana :-) Although now that I say that I wonder how many people consciously appreciate the meat they consume? I come from a hunting family that this concept was very important in and while I myself am not a hunter I know I appreciate the sacrifice made. Still it is easy to forget in a prepackaged world.

[Goldiegirl]

I never ate meat even as a child and my parents didn't make me. However, I do eat dairy products like yogurt and cheese. Although they aren't a main source of food. Every once in a while I'll eat an egg. I do eat eggs though when baked in a cake or something. So I guess I would be called an ovo-lacto vegetarian, or at least that is what Continental airlines said when I requested a vegetarian meal. There are all these "levels". I am not a strict vegan. I also don't mind other people eating meat and fish. I hate to think of killing any animal, but as long as it's done with as little suffering as there can be, it's ok. People are meant to eat a varied diet and I think meat is part of it. I just personally can't stand the taste, texture and the smell. To me the two worst offenders are fish and the smell of frying hamburger. (The rest of my family eats meat/fish.)

[KirinMan]

I got this definition of a vegetarian from the following site;Vegetarian Society of Ireland (http://www.vegetarian.ie/)

The Vegetarian Society of Ireland defines a vegetarian as one who does not consume meat, fish or fowl and who aims to avoid the use and consumption of battery hen eggs and slaughterhouse by-products in food, clothing, cosmetic and household products.

A vegan is one who adopts a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practical, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. In dietary terms veganism refers to the practice of dispensing with all animal produce - including meat, fish, poultry, eggs, animal milks, honey and their derivatives.

Abhorrence of the cruel practices inherent in dairy, livestock and poultry farming is probably the most common reason for the adoption of veganism, but many people are drawn to it for health, ecological, resource, spiritual and other reasons.


To those of you that are vegetarians do you take this as an accurate definition of what a vegetarian is or how a vegetarian views to life life by?

Not being familiar with vegetarianism as a social movement I am dismayed by the fact that this definition includes a social commentary on people that make the choice to eat meat or use meat products in their diet.

Not using the term lightly here but from this definition, if accurate, describes to me a least a form of radicalism otherwise why include the phrase "all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose", it seems to me to say that people who choose not to be vegans are against them any their way or choice of lifestyle.

I am not against anyone who makes a choice to be vegetarian, however I am against people or movements that wish to infringe on my rights or the rights of others that choose not to be vegetarians.


Also in this I ask;
.....and who aims to avoid the use and consumption of battery hen eggs and slaughterhouse by-products in food, clothing, cosmetic and household products.


Well if the "meat" is not slaughterhouse produced then are the by products allowable to be used by vegetarians? I think not it does however it does seem to be a rather ambigious statement.

If there is a "better" or more accurate definition of what a vegetarian is I would appreciate someone sharing it here, thank you.

[Goldiegirl]

I don't think you can be a vegetarian and eat meat...then you would be a carnivore or omnivore. That's my opinion though. I do buy farm raised, free range chicken and eggs and organic milk. I don't believe in being cruel to animals, but that is not what made me a vegetarian. I simply never ate meat because I didn't like it. I have the feeling that I would be in the minority and that for the most part people become vegetarian for health reasons or moral reasons...such that their religion restricts it or they are against killing animals or using animals for any product, food, clothing or otherwise.

My overall definition of a vegetarian is someone who doesn't eat meat/flesh. (fish and seafood included) To me it doesn't include milk. Eggs, I am not sure...they are unfertilzed and are protein for a would be chick. As we don't eat fertilized eggs there is no "meat or flesh" in it. I guess I would classify milk/eggs/cheese acceptable in vegetarianism as it is not meat/flesh. I think you could say a "strict" vegetarian wouldn't use or ingest any product that comes from an animal or insect or anything alive with a brain.

[Sarapva]

I became a vegetarian after seeing some videos of factory farming and animals in slaughterhouses. I didn't like meat much anyway, so it wasn't much of a sacrifice. I'm also not a strict vegan (I do eat honey, and I'm not strict about not eating cakes or muffins made with eggs or milk). Here is a definition I found from http://www.vegforlife.org/

[Q: What is a Vegetarian?
A: The definition of "vegetarianism" differs from person to person. Most people who call themselves vegetarians do not consume the flesh of any animal, but may eat eggs and dairy products. These people are called lacto-ovo vegetarians. Strict vegetarians, or vegans, are people who do not consume animal products of any kind, including dairy, eggs, honey, gelatin, or other animal-derived products. Many of these vegetarians also refrain from wearing leather, fur, wool, or other products made from animals.

Obeika, I have seen some arguments that raising cattle contributes to global warming (with the production of methane gas). I think this is the "environmental" aspect, as well as the waste these farms produce. I don't have anything against anyone who eats meat or believes they need it for nutrition. But look at the animals that don't eat meat - horses, cows, sheep - and see how strong they are!

The Farm Sanctuary has farms in New York and in California that take in animals that have fallen off trucks or that people bring in when they're sick. There are a lot of animals that "fall by the wayside" in farming, and they're just left to die. Here's the Farm Sanctuary web site:

http://www.farmsanctuary.com

[Mars Man]

Well, I have lived the vegetarian lifestyle for a while, when living with the folks from Gujarat, India, and had no problem with it at all. Yet on my own, I pretty much go with the more typical carnivorous way of the homo sapien.

Why? Just because I happen to like eating meat--maybe because I grew up in that environment without any misgivings about it, acquired the liking, and have long since stuck with it.

Of course, I have nothing at all against those who chose otherwise. I recall on one occasion at a BBQ at my house, a friend of a friend told me on the defense, that he didn't want to eat any of the meat, and once he noticed that I fully accepted that as though it was just as normal as those there who did, he dropped his defenses and relaxed. (maybe some had made fun of the choice in his past history)

[inertia]

My reason for becoming a vegetarian is similar to Goldiegirl's. I just didn't like most meat and the easiest way to turn it down politely at friends' houses was to say "I'm a vegetarian." In retrospect, the reason I came to dislike meat is probably because from a young age I was accustomed to eating the meat from my grandparents' farm, where the animals were raised in the old-fashioned free range way and slaughtered humanely. The meat that my grandmother cooked from these traditionally raised animals tasted good. But compared to that, the meat I tried anywhere else was inedible unless it was completely saturated in spices, like tacos or pepperoni. It was the same with milk -- the fresh sweet unpasteurized milk at my family's farm was delicious, but store milk which had been sitting in trucks and on the shelves for who-knows-how-long was undrinkable.

In my childhood ignorance, I thought the cooks were just incompetent, and adopted the term "vegetarian" to get out of eating their meat without saying their food was nasty. It wasn't until just a few years ago that organically raised meat started to become popular, and the discussions about how it tasted better than mass-produced slaughterhouse meat pumped up with hormones and antibiotics tipped me off to what had been "wrong" with the supermarket meat I hated as a child. But after being vegetarian for 15+ years, I see no reason to begin trying to eat meat again.

[Kinsao]

I'm not a vegetarian... I think the human body was designed to be omnivorous, and I don't feel it's unethical for humans to eat meat for nutrition when, of course, animals eat meat too! They eat each other, and not humanely either... (>.< ... lol)
On the other hand, I can appreciate why some people are vegetarian and respect their choice... because I really feel that in fact most of the meat that I (for example) would eat is either raised in an unnatural way or so heavily processed that there is an awful lot of 'bad' stuff ends up in your meat that you probably wouldn't get if you were living in a 'natural' situation and killing animals for food in the wild. If I was living in the 'wild' I wouldn't hesitate to kill an animal for food, but I disagree with some of the inhumane ways animals are farmed, kept and slaughtered. However, I don't live in the 'wild', don't have the opportunity or facility to kill for my own food, and therefore in order to eat meat at all I have to buy it from the shops. When possible I choose meat that advertises itself as being raised 'organically' and/or in particularly free-ranging conditions (rather than battery farming), but of course in pre-packaged foods I don't get that option and being lazy I still buy pre-packaged food at times! *blush* .. where you really don't know where the meat has come from.
I suppose I 'justify' this to myself by the reasoning that I'm not against eating animals as food - simply, I disapprove of the unnecessary suffering caused to them by inhumane farming and/or slaughtering methods.
This does of course extend to other animal products such as milk, cheese, eggs and leather, but I have to admit I don't think about them much... simply because if I was to think about animal products in everything, it's amazing how much they are around, and in products that you wouldn't expect.. o_o ..
Yes I think humans were designed to eat meat and as such there is nothing wrong with doing it.. but I disapprove of some methods.. guess you could say I'm a hypocrite for continuing to eat meat, but there are also health reasons.. as someone mentioned, a lot of people become vegetarian without taking the trouble to educate themselves on how to get their full amount of nutrients they need (I know a few people who have done this >_>).. true, there are many vegetarians who take the time and trouble to have an extremely balanced and healthy diet ^^ but this isn't always easy, and it can also be more expensive, which I've noticed some people seem to discount as a motivating factor but when you're living on a shoestring you notice every little thing >.< ... personally having suffered from quite serious health problems in the past I've been warned I could be storing up big trouble for myself if I cut meat out of my diet o_o although it must be said I don't eat much of it! because I'm lazy and I can't be bothered to cook! *blush* so... apart from cold meat sometimes...

[Sarapva]

I thought I'd post a quotation from Henry David Thoreau's "Walden" (he was an American philosopher in the 1800's who lived for 2 years in a small cabin as an experiment to see how much or how little he really needed to live):

Is it not a reproach that man is a carnivorous animal? True, he can and does live, in a great measure, by preying on other animals; but this is a miserable way,-as any one who will go to snaring rabbits, or slaughtering lambs, may learn,-and he will be regarded as a benefactor of his race who shall teach man to confine himself to a more innocent and wholesome diet. Whatever my own practice may be, I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other when they came in contact with the more civilized.

[Raika]

I'm not a vegetarian, but there's no particular reason for it. I was brought up with meat. ..although I must say I'm not all too fond of meat, except for chicken. I can't resist fried chicken. or cooked chicken. any prepared chicken anyway.. I have a few vegetarian friends, though. They all refuse meat because of their love for animals.

[Flashjeff]

Well, I love vegetables, especially corn and string beans (particularly raw string beans), but I've gotta have my daily portion of dead animal (or bird or fish). Yum! Hey, if people want to be vegans all the time, that's their choice, more power to 'em!

:-)

[KirinMan]

They all refuse meat because of their love for animals.


Do your friends also refrain from eating fish or seafood products as well?

[misa.j]

I'm not a vegetarian but respect those who are, as long as they don't try to impose their choice on others. I love vegetables and can skip meat or fish often, but after doing some serious hiking or work-out, I can only think about steak or chicken on the grill.

I try to avoid consuming endangered animals or foods killed for luxuary; I'm not interested in eating the bluefin tuna or sea bass which have been overfished and disappearing from the oceans, or veal meat from baby cows.

[Sarapva]

Well, I love vegetables, especially corn and string beans (particularly raw string beans

I also like fresh raw string (or green) beans. I grew some peas once, and ate almost all of them raw (cooking took the flavor out a little). Fresh corn here in Virginia in the summer is delicious! As well as tomatoes, cucumbers ..... It seems that since I've stopped eating meat, I really enjoy vegetables more.

[Nicky]

I became a vegetarian when I was 15. My only reason for doing so was because I didn't like the idea of supporting the animal cruelty that is sometimes found in slaughter houses. I don't think eating meat is wrong, or killing an animal to get meat is wrong. I just never liked the idea that some slaughter houses actually abuse the animals the entire time they are alive. Nothing deserves that kind of treatment even if it is destined to eventually end up in my tummy. I think my point was basically just "This isn't right and I want no part in it".

Although, Last year I switched to a pescatarian diet. It suits me better and allows me to have lobster. The only meat I eat is fish and seafood.

On a side note, when I went veggie my mom viewed my decision to not eat meat as if I had stabbed her in the back. She also refused to cook for me, claiming that she "didn't know how to cook for a vegetarian". I lived off of nasty veggie friendly t.v. dinners for a year because I couldn't even boil water at the time. um... family get togethers were awkward, being surrounded by seven or eight somewhat miffed middle aged women who demand to know why you don't just pick the pieces of meat out the casserole that they're trying to force feed you. etc.

[yukio_michael]

Nothing deserves that kind of treatment even if it is destined to eventually end up in my tummy. Before slaughter houses, men threw spears into the biggest animals who slowly died before them... there wasn't any such thing as the "clean shot"...

Slaughterhouses are mechanised for creating food, that food happens to be living things, I wouldn't say they tourture them... I think it's probably in their best interest to kill them the faster the better... but still, I think you should do what you think is right.

It's hard to tell, you espouse a more vegan response to diet than one of a vegetarian... I mean, do you eat eggs? Do you drink milk?

I don't think I could eat completely vegetarian... though I'm not shoving meat down my throat every other second... A good ballance of foods is essential to a person's diet. I cook with tofu, but I wouldn't neceissarily replace meet with it.... though tofu curry can be pretty tasty.

One thing I'll say is that a couple in New York raised a baby as vegan, and that baby died because it didn't get the nutrients it needed to survive... that alone makes me wary of the vegetarian/vegan lifestyle.

[Nicky]

do you eat eggs? Do you drink milk?


Yes, but the eggs and milk I buy are all from those so called "safe" companies that advertise that they treat their animals better. Of course there is no real way to tell that they actually are doing that...


Slaughterhouses are mechanised for creating food, that food happens to be living things, I wouldn't say they tourture them...


I wouldn't either. Well at least I wouldn't say that it happens at every single one of them, but there are some. There are countless videos floating around of workers (who are probably disgruntled) kicking or beating the livestock. It doesn't seem like it'll serve any purpose, will my steak somehow be tastier if a worker beats the crap out of a cow before it goes to be killed (simply because he's probably having a bad day)?

I don't support raising vegetarian/vegan kids. Mostly for the fact that you would be setting them up for years of kids teasing them for not being able to eat what they consider "normal" food. "Why can't you have a burger?... so like if a cow with a knife attacked you in an alley, would you kill it or let it kill you?" And also, I don't like the idea of forcing a lifestyle choice onto someone.

In reference to your spear comment, I don't really care about killing animals. Things die. And you should be " wary of the vegetarian/vegan lifestyle". I have met tons of very unhealthily vegans and vegetarians. There are plenty who present it as a very healthy lifestyle, but it really does not make you any healthier than any random meat eater. If a person doesn't know how to eat healthy before going veggie, they generally don't know how to after either.

[Sarapva]

Yes, but the eggs and milk I buy are all from those so called "safe" companies that advertise that they treat their animals better. Of course there is no real way to tell that they actually are doing that..

One way you can be pretty sure is to buy from organic companies - part of the regulations they have to go by to be certified organic is humane treatment of the animals. Of course, "humane" could be interpreted differently, but there probably aren't any undercover videos of mistreatment of animals from organic farms. You also have the assurance that there are no health-compromising hormones or antibiotics in organic food.

Good for you, Nicky, for sticking to your beliefs even at 15 years old and in the face of all that adversity!

[Nicky]

Thanks. Although, I'm 21 now (and not a vegetarian anymore). =/

[KirinMan]

And also, I don't like the idea of forcing a lifestyle choice onto someone.
I'm pretty sure you mellowed with age, but back when you were 15 and a "vegetarian", you forced it on to your family.

My sister is a vegetarian and she will tell you that she doesnt like the fact that people would raise their kids not to be vegetarian.

Why is it assumed that being a vegetarian is a lifestyle choice? Why do people who choose to be vegetarians use terminology such as this to describe their eating habits? Or is it more than just their diet that one thinks of when saying they are vegetarians?

So to use this logic in my choice to eat meat I am making a lifestyle choice to indirectly kill cows? Maybe so, but to me at least they sure do taste great on the grill.

[DoctorP]

So to use this logic in my choice to eat meat I am making a lifestyle choice to indirectly kill cows? Maybe so, but to me at least they sure do taste great on the grill.

Not necessarily...I could be killing chickens or pigs!:blush:

[Clawn]

I'm not a vegetarian, and I never will even consider being one. There are two reasons for this. The first, and most important, reason being that I despise most fruits and vegetables. Anything outside the realm of rice, carrots, peas, apples, and bananas are impossible for me to eat without subsequent regurgitation. I just don't find too many fruits and veggies all that appetizing. The second reason is that my father is very fond of cooking, and he is extraordinarily skilled as a chef. I could never say no to duck on Christmas Eve or a well cooked steak. :wave:

[Sarapva]

So to use this logic in my choice to eat meat I am making a lifestyle choice to indirectly kill cows?

Yes, I think this is true. Even though most people don't actually kill the animals themselves, they are supporting it by eating meat. I think we all need to at least take this responsibility instead of "hiding" behind the industries that do all the dirty work for us (not saying you're doing this, Obeika - I think you're taking some responsibility just by considering all this). This includes other industries too, not just the meat industry. I've heard that the average person eats something like 95 animals a year. If a meat-eating person knows how the meat gets to him and can eat it with a good conscience, there's nothing more to be said about it.

[KirinMan]

Yes, I think this is true. Even though most people don't actually kill the animals themselves, they are supporting it by eating meat. I think we all need to at least take this responsibility instead of "hiding" behind the industries that do all the dirty work for us (not saying you're doing this, Obeika - I think you're taking some responsibility just by considering all this). This includes other industries too, not just the meat industry.

Why is it "dirty" work? I see nothing dirty or wrong with an industry helping me by providing food for myself and my family. I dont have the space to raise my own cows, pigs, and chickens so I need someone to provide them for me, and I pay for that everytime I go to the grocery.

I guess I could start making comments about the plight of the migrant workers that are picking the vegetables that a vegetarian may or may not eat.

Which is worse the human suffering or the animal's? That's a rhetorical question because I think that the vast majority of people will say "Of course" "The humans". Also I dont think that any rancher views his or her stock with such distain as to wish it any suffering in it's life, it also lessens it's value at market.

I'm sorry but I dont particulary like some of the terminology that some people use against us "meat-eaters". I am not pointing fingers at anyone here, particularly not you Sarapva. I hope that maybe you could explain why some vegetarians use rather harsh and provoking language in an effort to make us carnivore's look like something less than human.

I've heard that the average person eats something like 95 animals a year. If a meat-eating person knows how the meat gets to him and can eat it with a good conscience, there's nothing more to be said

I can live with it, and I appreciate your honesty in sharing your views here. Thank you.

[Sarapva]

When I say "dirty work" I mean actually killing the animals. Most of us wouldn't want to do that (I certainly wouldn't). I know that some vegetarians and animal rights activists use harsh, aggressive language to try to get their points across. While I don't think this is very effective, I can see that it mostly comes from frustration that people don't seem to understand the plight of most farm animals, especially in the slaughterhouse. If an animal is being tortured right in front of your eyes, it's hard to ignore, but just because animals live lives of horror where we can't see them doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned.

The "human vs. animal" suffering is of course just an intellectual idea - any suffering is just that. I think the fact that animals are, overall, more defenseless against humans than other humans are is what makes some people more strongly defend the abuses against animals.

I know there are farms and probably slaughterhouses where animals are given the most respectful treatment possible under the circumstances. I think this whole argument for being vegetarian is more for a change in attitude toward animals - seeing them as other living creatures that deserve to live their lives their way, instead of seeing them as commodities to be treated any way we choose for our own profits.

[Nicky]

I'm pretty sure you mellowed with age, but back when you were 15 and a "vegetarian", you forced it on to your family.



I don't recall forcing anything on my family, it is not like they had to change either eating habits. You could say that they had to change their spending habits, that is until I got a job and started buying my own food at 16.

But I did mellow with age.
I
Or is it more than just their diet that one thinks of when saying they are vegetarians?

Yes, Along with not eating meat, most vegetarians avoid products made with animal by-products. It's not just what they eat, it's what they will spend their money on. Because buying something made with glue that is an animal by-product is considered "supporting" animal-whatever.

[Sarapva]

Yes, it's supporting all the industries that make money from exploitation of animals. Buying things with animal by-products is indirectly supporting the killing of animals for food, etc. There are so many things with animal by-products, though - it's hard to buy completely vegan, though vegan companies are growing.

[Kuroyume]

My opinion is that you don't need meat to sourvive. You can live quite well without meat. Actually i don't feel that i'm missing anything. And i don't believe that a vegetarian diet is unhealthy, i'm vegetarian for more than 5 years and i still feel quite well actually.:cool:

[DoshKel]

There are some really good points in this thread. Very cool.

I've been Vegan now for seven years, and without meat for 9. I first got interested in being a Vegetarian when I read a book about Mahayana Buddhism. Somewhere in the book it said that eating an animal was essentially murder, which may or may not be true, but at the time it scared me shitless. So I stopped eating all meat. 2 years later after doing some research, I decided that a Vegan lifestyle is what I want to lead. Not having to do anything with animal products made me feel great at first, so I decided to stay with it. Now that I have been Vegan for awhile, my reason for staying with it is because I believe that it is wrong to use animals for our needs when there are many safe alternatives, that is is fairly disgusting to kill something and then use the parts, and that I am so used to not using animal products... that using them seems odd to me.

However, I am not bothered when those around me eat meat, use animal products, etc. While I would love for those that I care about to become Vegan/Vegetarian... it isn't my choice. I can sit next to someone eating meat and not be bothered by it as well. I love the feeling that respecting other people gives me.

And i'm sure I am not completely 100% Vegan. But my attitude is that if I try and learn, I am doing a good thing.

[frostyg02uk]

Erm.... i love eating meat. I dislike many veg so for me to only eat it is boarderline impossible. I think the reason people choose to be vegitarian can sometimes be funny. Like im a vegitarian because i wont take part in the killing of animals, yet the soya beans that they eat often is a main reason for rainforests being cut down in south america. So lets not kill and eat the animals just cut down their homes and watch them die out lol.

[KirinMan]

Some of the statements made here in recent replies on this thread bring me to ask the writers of the following posts their rationale for thinking the way that they do. First.....

My opinion is that you don't need meat to sourvive. You can live quite well without meat. Actually i don't feel that i'm missing anything. And i don't believe that a vegetarian diet is unhealthy,
Ok great, more power to you however I have to ask a question about this part of what you wrote;

i'm vegetarian for more than 5 years and i still feel quite well actually
Did you or do you still have some expectation that by somehow being a vegetarian you are going to get ill someday? Because of the fact you are a vegetarian perhaps?

Second.......
But my attitude is that if I try and learn, I am doing a good thing.
I do not want to misintrepret what you wrote here so please come back and clarify for me/us whether this means you are talking about life in general or about being a vegetarian. Thank you

Last...
So lets not kill and eat the animals just cut down their homes and watch them die out lol.
Not a question but a comment, good points, I respect vegetarian's rights to choose, however I do not respect vegetarians that expect me to allow them to infringe on my or our right to eat meat. I dont appreciate the "radical" nature that many vegetarians that I see or read about have.

I would bet that is a very small portion of the vegetarian society or community, but they are the face of it.

[Sarapva]

So lets not kill and eat the animals just cut down their homes and watch them die out lol.

Cutting down forests is used for so many other things besides farming vegetables - developing land for housing, etc., and making pastureland for cattle to raise for meat - that it couldn't really be used as an argument against being vegetarian. Some forests are being cleared to grow soybeans to make ethanol (a fuel alternative), not just to eat.

Kuroyume and DoshKel - Thank you for sharing your experiences of being vegetarian. I've also found that, after not eating meat for about 3 years, I don't think of it as something to eat anymore. But I also sit side by side with people who are eating meat and, while I don't comment on it, I would rather not see them eat meat for their own well-being as well as animals'.

[SushiShin]

I respect people so i also want people to respect me, i like chicken and thats an animal so nope im not a vegetarian

[frostyg02uk]

Im aware that rainforests are cut down for loads of reasons including the usage of cattle but the point im making is that its kind of silly not the eat chicken here but eat soybeans that help kill off wildlife that ISNT made for consumption. The animals killed here for food are breed from day one to be eaten and they are in no threat of extinction..and to my knowledge we are not killing off the planet (if you believe in the green house effect) by eating them. I just find it hypercritical to say we dont eat meat cause its cruel yet we will buy products that have a hand in breaking down rainforest areas the size of wales killing off the animals envolved and destorying the planet. they blame global warming for many things such as other animals around the world having to change there way of living like in the Gobi desert or the poles, not helped by humans who force animals out as well because their old home is now flooded due to global warming. Just a though.

[Hollow_Desires]

I am not a vegetarian because i enjoy the taste and smell of meat, whch doesnt mean I dont love vegetables, which I do, and I guess I was bought up on me so thats why

[KirinMan]

I am not a vegetarian because i enjoy the taste and smell of meat, whch doesnt mean I dont love vegetables, which I do, and I guess I was bought up on me so thats why

I am not a vegetarian either and I do love all types of meat, yet I enjoy a nice fesh vegetable or vegetable salad as well, heck one of my favorite foods is a nice ear of freshly roasted sweet corn with a bit of melted butter and a touch of fresh salt.

In my opinion I feel that we were meant to eat all that is available on this earth for human consumption.

I respect people so i also want people to respect me, i like chicken and thats an animal so nope im not a vegetarian

You bring up a good point, while the people posting here on this thread are very tolerant of each and everyones beliefs on this subject I am afraid to say that in my opinion many vegetarians that I have come across choose not to respect those of us that eat meat.

[frostyg02uk]

I agree with Herbal shin and Obeika. To be fair i only know one vegan and when he told me that (after i offered him some Japanese chocolate, haha more for me) rather then look down on him i was actually interested in things, like why and what kinds of things he eats daily instead of meat. But to be fair to him he did try to explain and educate me on his ideals haha but without sayings i was wrong for eating meat. Eating out with him was amazing haha the amount of things he couldnt eat and the questions he asked our waitress for like 7 minutes was amazing but when ive spoken to other vegans on the net its like they turn it into a religion where they need to convert you which as we know can be quite annoying at times.

[Kuroyume]

Did you or do you still have some expectation that by somehow being a vegetarian you are going to get ill someday? Because of the fact you are a vegetarian perhaps?
Well, some (meat eating) people (worried grandparents usually) tell me quite often that a vegetarian diet was quite dangerous and it would make me ill someday. So what i wanted to say is that it hasn't made me ill for 5 years and i don't believe it will make me ill at all.

[frostyg02uk]

Hey if it works for you stick with it ^-^

[DoshKel]

I do not want to misintrepret what you wrote here so please come back and clarify for me/us whether this means you are talking about life in general or about being a vegetarian. Thank you

I'm basically talking about doing a good thing for myself (physical and mental health).

[Sarapva]

to my knowledge we are not killing off the planet (if you believe in the green house effect) by eating them.

There is an argument that cattle farms are contributing to global warming by creating methane gas.

From www.vegforlife.org :

Livestock rearing also results in the production of methane and nitrous oxide, two gases known to contribute significantly to global warming. The EPA estimates that one fourth of the nation's methane emissions come from animals raised for food.

Over seventy percent of American grain and eighty percent of American corn is fed to farm animals. (30) According to a Cornell University study, the amount of grain consumed by animals could feed approximately 800 million hungry people. (31)
Valuable water resources are also squandered for meat production. Produce just ten pounds of steak requires the same amount of water as is used by an average household for an entire year.


I think there are lots of things we could change about the way we humans do things, not just the way we eat. It seems like we're just destroying the planet with all this development and gas/oil/coal use. I'm also for renewable energy sources like wind or solar.

[Goldiegirl]

I think that there are just as many rude comments made to us vegetarians from people who eat meat. I have gotten used to hiding meat served to me in my purse under napkins to try and avoid the comments....especially when invited out and don't want to appear rude when I know everything served is going to be meat or meat based. There are those who make a scene about the fact that I don't eat meat, and will announce to our group that I can not partake in the meal they are enjoying and that they had to request a "special" meal just for me. It is embarrasing and rude. I now beg my husband when we are out to not say anything; and have learned to look like I am eating. It's sad that it has gotten to that point.

[frostyg02uk]

But really Goldiegirl thats your fault. You shouldnt feel shame in your beliefs or they cant be that strong. When i ate with my vegan friend i was a little embrassed at the trouble he caused the waitress haha but also i found it funny and was impressed at how he had reseached his way of doing things. If i ate out with you i wouldnt be bothered by your ways. When i go to Japan im a fussy eater who practically can eat anything as long as its meat so quite often ill get another order to make up for the things i can eat or if for example we are eating (is it called?) sukiyaki ill get extra something and also share that with everyone.
Life live for you ^-^

[Goldiegirl]

I found a completely vegan noodle bowl here in Japan! YAY! It's really good. There is even a little foil package with daikon, potatoes and carrots that you put in at the end...they aren't the dried up kind! I can't read the brand name, but it does say "Weekly Vegetarian" and 1993 Vegetarian Society Japan. :)

I don't like to made the center of attention to further point out my differences....I am not proud to be a vegetarian, it's just that I can't stand the taste and texture of meat...and especially the smell of fish. It's not for "green" reasons, but taste reasons! Sorry!

[KirinMan]

It's not for "green" reasons, but taste reasons! Sorry!

No reason to be sorry at all and I'm glad you found something that your taste buds can be happy with.

I know that if I was a vegetarian I would have no problems being one here that's for sure.

[frostyg02uk]

I think in Japan there are alot of nice vegetarian meals to be had. My friend who is a vegan is my Japanese classmate and he always worries about eating in Japan

[Goldiegirl]

It is hard though, because it seems like vegetarian means no meat, but that doesn't include fish. My brother-in-law says he's a vegetarian because he doesn't eat beef. He does eat fish. I find that in Japan, fish based soup is often considered vegetarian. I will order a vegetable/tofu soup, but it's fishy. So there are plenty of non-meat items to order, but many are cooked in a fish stock.

[frostyg02uk]

Yeah that may be difficult for him. He doesnt even eat chocolate if it has milk in it. i once asked him "so you dont eat egg either?......"
then when i thought about i felt stupid lol

[Goldiegirl]

No chocolate I would die... Eggs, well, they are tricky. I don't like them very much as a sole food, but whip them up into cakes or cookies and I'll eat them! Your friend must be a really strict vegan! Do you think he is happy? I know I couldn't be happy with out milk/dairy products!

[frostyg02uk]

I dont know how he does it. Meat..hmm maybe but chocolate? what kind of God makes chocolate availible but then makes people vegans? lol
I think hes happy though and hes reseached about it throughly so hes pretty serious about it too.

[Sarapva]

There are lots of vegan chocolates now, though they're still more expensive. Here's a page from www.veganessentials.com :

http://store.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=vegane&BusType=BtoC&Count1=630993068&Count2=548133492&CategoryID=1&Target=products.asp

[KirinMan]

You know I just wonder what vegetarians are going to eat when they finally open their eyes and realize that vegetables have "feelings" too. What are you going to eat now? Are vegetarians prejudged or biased towards the forms of intelligence that they choose to defend by not eating? Just because you cant hear it doesnt necessarily mean it does cry when you bite into it, it's still live. At least with meat we kill the host before eating it.

I mean look now, trees plants, and vegetables too, bleed when they are injured or cut. It has got to hurt them as well. Heck cut a tree wrong it dies, same for a vegetable plant.

There has been research as well upon the necessity of one species of plant that needs another to survive. That sounds like intelligence to me.

Just because they dont have eyes or brains that are similar to animals doesnt mean they aren't forms of life that have intelligence.

Vegetables and humans form a symbiotic circle, .

[MummyMia]

I'm not a vegetarian but I have to say that as I get older I find I am eating less and less meat. The meat I eat the most is bacon, I could not imagine living without bacon but as for the rest I can take it or leave it!!!!! I would much rather have a plate of veggies and gravy with potatoes.....

[Sarapva]

I mean look now, trees plants, and vegetables too, bleed when they are injured or cut. It has got to hurt them as well. Heck cut a tree wrong it dies, same for a vegetable plant.

I can't really tell if you're kidding or not here, Obeika, but in case you're not - yes, plants are alive but they don't have nerve endings or emotions like animals. If they did they'd have the means to try to escape something being done to them, like a wildfire. Because we humans can feel a burn, we have the means to try to get away from it. It's possible that plants have a consciousness, but it's not like animals'. Plants don't feel confined when they're kept together in one place, and they don't feel scared when loaded onto a truck and taken somewhere to be slaughtered.

Just because someone speaks out against animal cruelty doesn't mean they don't feel the same about cruelty to humans. I think these two are intertwined - a person who is cruel to animals is also likely to be cruel to humans, and vice versa. I'm against cruelty period, whether it's against animals or humans.

[MummyMia]

I am sitting here wondering!!!! when it comes to animal cruelty how many vegetarians use well known brand name products not realising that they are tested on animals? most shops own brand products (shampoo, washingup liquid, etc) are not tested on animals so if the smaller companies can do this then why can't the big names?????

[KirinMan]

I am sitting here wondering!!!! when it comes to animal cruelty how many vegetarians use well known brand name products not realising that they are tested on animals? most shops own brand products (shampoo, washingup liquid, etc) are not tested on animals so if the smaller companies can do this then why can't the big names?????
Thank you for saying this, I'm sure that many are aware of it and I would bet that there are more than just a few that refuse to use those products or support those companies yet there are probably others that dont, yet people want safe reliable products at a reasonable price right?

This brings up another issue but not related just to vegetarians, animal rights. Everyone wants their cosmetics and shampoos right? Sure companies could find other means to test their products but to get them to the market in a timely cost effective manner they use animals for testing.

No big deal right.....or wrong? I think that if companies could find a cost effective replacement for animals they would, it costs them tons of money as well to upkeep and maintain quality stock for their testing purposes.

can't really tell if you're kidding or not here, Obeika,

I wrote that pretty much tongue in cheek, however as I was writing it the thought occured to me that the more radical people who claim to be vegetarians because they cant bear to kill and "intelligent" being sounds like a bunch of guano because then they go out and enjoy a fresh garden salad.

However to the typical, everyday, average, normal, level headed kind of like me but dont eat meat,(did I miss any adjectives here), including you Sara in this as well, my post should be read tongue in cheek.:wave:

[Sarapva]

MummyMia - I'm glad you brought this up. PETA has a list of companies that do and don't test on animals:

http://www.caringconsumer.com/resources_companies.asp

More and more companies are stopping animals tests, especially ones for things like shampoo and cosmetics, etc. There used to be a law (at least in the U.S.) that these things had to be tested on animals, but now that law has been revoked for skin care and cleaning products. I think there's still a law about other chemicals having to be tested on animals. PETA has all that information on their web site. Animal testing is one thing that really should be stopped.

Obeika - Glad to know you were kidding. "Going out and enjoying a fresh garden salad" has never sounded so sinister!

[Nicky]

.... I am afraid to say that in my opinion many vegetarians that I have come across choose not to respect those of us that eat meat.

It has a lot to do with why someone is a vegetarian (in my opinion). I'll generalize and say there are basically 3 types of vegetarians. First there are those who do it because they feel that it's a healthier way to live. Second are those who, while they don't necessarily disagree with eating meat, don't think cruelty should be included. The third group is the Peta/etc group, and can basically be summed up by the phrase "dolphin-safe tuna” isn’t good enough. We want “tuna-safe tuna". Group three often takes a "with us or against us" approach to vegetarianism .

[KirinMan]

It has a lot to do with why someone is a vegetarian (in my opinion). I'll generalize and say there are basically 3 types of vegetarians. First there are those who do it because they feel that it's a healthier way to live. Second are those who, while they don't necessarily disagree with eating meat, don't think cruelty should be included. The third group is the Peta/etc group, and can basically be summed up by the phrase "dolphin-safe tuna” isn’t good enough. We want “tuna-safe tuna". Group three often takes a "with us or against us" approach to vegetarianism .

Well said, I will say that I don't often come across many Japanese people that are openly vegetarians. Not to say that there aren't any but they dont come across as being activists like you note in your 3rd group.

I also feel that here dietarily it is easier to be a vegetarian purely by environment. I know quite a few people that dont eat meat, not because they are vegetarians but because they just dont like it or it doesnt agree with them. To me anyway they dont particularly fit into any of the groups that you included here however, because to them it is just a matter of their diet.

"Going out and enjoying a fresh garden salad" has never sounded so sinister!
Sorry about that, I enjoy fresh veggies too! :wave:

[bakaKanadajin]

I'm not a vegetarian because I eat fish and sometimes chicken, so I don't fall under the category of vegetarian. But I am careful to eat only certain fish and organic/grain-fed free-range chicken when possible. It's too complicated and expensive to convert completely to vegetarianism for me, its much easier to crack open a can of kipper or sardines for protein than it is to mix up a bunch of beans and tofu properly. Balancing incomplete proteins to get the proper intake is difficult, mother nature intended us to be omnivores and I'm afraid I'm lazy and partial to mother nature.
.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

I am not because I like meat and seafood. Is that a good enough reason ?

[arpee92]

I am not a vegetarian because meat tastes good.

Besides, it's natural to eat meat, all of the other animals do it.

[epigene]

I want a mostly vegetarian diet for my health but can't do without some meat and seafood! :relief:

[Revenant]

I'm not a strict vegetarian, were I to go to a restaurant or someone's house, I'd eat what was put before me. However at home, the only animal product that I really enjoy is cheese.... nachos and cheese.... curry with cheese... cheese cheese cheese.

As a band-aid solution, veganism is the best answer (entirely from an environmental point-of-view). It isn't meat or animal products in themselves that are a problem to the environment, but our overconsumption of them (we hardly need the amount of meat, dairy, and fish that we're consuming), and the farming techniques that are necessary to meet our consumption needs. Biodynamic farming would be a far more environmentally-friendly way to get our meat and dairy, but it would produce a lot less meat and dairy.

[Rae]

I am a vegetarian for about an year. I gave up meat step by step, and now i only eat veggies and milk+eggs.
I became a vegetarian mainly because I used to eat a lot of meat. I always felt tired, or depressed. My biology teacher told me that she had the same problem and she gave up on meat. So i tried it, and now i feel healthier and I have more energy. (I'm hyperactive, to be honest :souka:)

[Half-n-Half]

I am not a vegetarian because I love the taste of meat. I can't imagine giving up hot dogs, steak, cheeseburgers, tonkatsu, sushi, pork, chicken, etc...*drool*. Besides, I don't think it is any more cruel to kill an animal for our consumption than it is for a lion to eat a gazelle. And like Obeika said earlier, I can live with knowing how the meat gets to me.

[Goldiegirl]

I have a real problem with the texture of meat. You know, like when you bite into a sausage or hamburger and hit one of those hard un-chewable bits. Yuck, that made me gag and just the thought of it turns me queasy. Also when you cut a piece a meat, like a roast or steak and you can see tube running through it and you know that was once a vein, yuck again. I certainly can't stand to see "anatomy". I was never a meat eater, but was forced as a kid at times to eat it. Fish was never food to me, it smells bad and I won't eat anything that smells bad.

[tokapi]

Not for a second on any day,I am a meat-eater.:-)

[Guilty41]

I'm not a vegetarian, I think everybody should eat what they like even if it is something
not everybody would like. Everybody has something that they eat in their part of the
world that would not be accepted by others. Except for animal cruelty. Their is no need
for animals to suffer.

[Sarapva]

Except for animal cruelty. Their is no need
for animals to suffer.

This is one reason more people are becoming vegetarian - because the practices on factory farms are so cruel to animals. There is also the transport in trucks that can take hours with no food or water or relief from heat or cold, and then the slaughterhouse, where animal welfare laws are not often enforced (and there are no welfare laws in the U.S. for chickens, turkeys, ducks or geese destined for slaughter). Without these laws, workers in the meat industry don't have to worry about killing animals quickly and painlessly.

Some animals rights groups are trying to get a law passed that at least requires workers to humanely put to sleep a "downed" animal - one that is so injured from transport that it can't stand on its own. They are often left to die where they are or dragged to where the workers want them.

I don't want to support this in any way. I never did eat much meat, so it's not really a sacrifice not to eat any. But learning about the cruelty involved is what finally decided me to stop eating meat all together.

[pugtm]

no for the simple reason that my religion forbids it....:-)

[truly Japan]

I somehow have always felt vegetarianism is a way of life not because it is a way to prevent cruelty to animals or something. The reason is something else! I had once seen the food pyramid which says that the higher you go more is the energy loss. So that means plants can tap the maximum energy through the sun, and the animals who eat those plants lose 10% of the energy to the atmosphere. At each level there is a 10% loss. Also plants have all sorts of proteins and carbohydrates to fulfil our nutritional needs. So i guess being vegetarian is the way to be!!

[Sarapva]

That's interesting, truly Japan! I've also heard that by eating meat people are getting a diluted amount of the nutrients the animals have gotten by eating grains. A lot of India is vegetarian, I think (?).

[Arlet]

I eat meat.
Coz i like to eat meat.
It tastes good.

Ok, it was like we didn't kill animals from the very beginning i wouldn't have started i guess.
But its a way of surviving.

These days you can also live without meat and use others things.
But i just can't stop eating meat. I love meat :) It tastes good.

I know animals suffer, but it's not that bad here in the Netherlands.

[bakaKanadajin]

Another strike against meat (although I sometimes eat it.. I guess this would be the reasons why I feel bad AFTER eating it) is the fact that aside from being unethical it's unsafe. The amount of chemicals and harmful compounds in today's modern meat is staggering. Since I stopped eating red meat and processed foods I've noticed a definite improvement in my energy levels and general well being.

[pugtm]

try kosher meat it a heck of alot better than regular meat since it has no preservatives or chemicals and is free range. try it you will taste the difference immediately.

[Skullcrushergurl]

I don't eat chicken and sometimes I cry when I'm eating a hamburger but I can't live without meat!!
I'd go insane thinking about the hot juicy,plump,steak I'd be missing out on (Not that I eat steak anyway)
Sometimes I feel bad for the animals but I have to ignore it to feed my need. Sorry.

[bebopdobop]

I used to be vegetarian, for a bout 19 years of my life. Then I got married, and started eating meat. I would have no problem going back, because I'm not much of a carnivore, it was just much more convenient for me to start eating and cooking meat. Also, I was anemic before when I was vegetarian. Used to faint alot. Not any more. Thank you, meat!

[Revenant]

The iron in meat is easier for the body to absorb, but I think that eating more nuts, seeds, and a variety of veggies would provide enought iron for most people. Cooking in cast iron would also increase the uptake of iron for vegetarians and vegans.

[Taiko666]

Why is it "dirty" work? I'm sorry but I dont particulary like some of the terminology that some people use against us "meat-eaters". I am not pointing fingers at anyone here, particularly not you Sarapva. I hope that maybe you could explain why some vegetarians use rather harsh and provoking language in an effort to make us carnivore's look like something less than human.

Hi- Obeika, great thread, wish I'd seen it earier!

I think you're being oversensitive about vegetarians' terminology. It's an immotive subject, so phrases such as 'dirty work' (in this case, raising animals in cruel, unnatural conditions, then killing them in an even more cruel, industrialised, terrifying way) are completely excusable.

I'd also say that a lot of lightweight/chit-chat non-veggie / veggie discussions (unlike this thead I must emphasize) seem to go like this:

Non-veggie: Hey, you're not eating the meat! Are you veggie or something?

Veggie: < Smiles, thinks Oh no, I thought nobody had noticed, here comes the veggie discussion > Yes!

Non-veggie: Omoshiroi / really? / weird! - Why?

Veggie: < insert reasoned, deeply-felt, non-confrontational personal explanation here >

Non-veggie: Well, I love meat, so don't try to stop me eating it!

Veggie: < sighs, smiles > More beer anyone?

Not that I'm against discussing the subject of course... !

[Taiko666]

try kosher meat it a heck of alot better than regular meat since it has no preservatives or chemicals and is free range. try it you will taste the difference immediately.

The kosher method of slaughter is so revolting that the UK parliament debating banning it at length. That they eventually didn't ban it was due to overly PC religious sensitivities. The fact that the hugely PC UK government actually discussed it seriously is very significant.

[Sarapva]

I might regret asking this, but what is the kosher method of slaughter and how is it different from "regular" slaughter? The UK really is ahead of the U.S. in banning cruel farming methods.

Before I became a vegetarian, I had some moose meat in Alaska that really did taste a lot better than most of the meat you buy in stores, like Pugtm mentioned.

[Taiko666]

I might regret asking this, but what is the kosher method of slaughter and how is it different from "regular" slaughter? The UK really is ahead of the U.S. in banning cruel farming methods.


The animal is strung upside down and its throat is cut with a ritual knife. The blood then drains from the animal. For some reason, kosher law normally dictates that the animal be conscious when the cut is made, so the animal is not stunned before slaughter. Islamic Halal slaughter is very much the same.

Here's what a Jewish Vegetarian site has to say about it

http://www.jewishveg.com/media11.html

I think you're right about the UK's farm animal welfare laws. They do seem to be stricter than most- probaby as a consequence of the UK having a higher percentage of vegetarians than any country except India.

[Sarapva]

Thanks for that link and information, Taiko666. I had heard something about the PETA investigation at AgriProcessors a while ago. But that article is informative - I didn't know all that about Jewish laws requiring slaughter to be painless. It gives me a new respect for the Jewish religion.

From what I've heard about other slaughter plants, the slaughter method is similar to the kosher method except for the stunning - but then there's an argument that even though stunning an animal paralyzes it, it doesn't necessarily mean the animal is unconscious and can't feel pain (similar to the news stories recently about people who wake up during surgery - they can't move, but can feel the pain of their surgery and hear what the doctors are saying - truly a nightmare-ish experience).

[Taiko666]

Hi Sarapva-san! Jewish law might require that the animal suffers no pain, but then it requires that the animal be killed in the kosher way- the assumption being that this method is painless. It's quite clearly not painless, even if it's performed expertly.

And you're absolutely right about stunning not being foolproof. Of couse the animal feels pain, and lots of it. And as it's being led to the slaughter it can see, hear and smell its companions suffering disgusting deaths. All this in addition to the unbelivable cruel conditions that it probably had to endure during its brief pitiful existence (especially if it was an American pig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aukdZWNvDMs).)

The foundation of my vegetarianism is that all this suffering is completely unacceptable when cruelty-free, nutritious, environmentally sound and above all tasty alternatives are readily available.

[Sarapva]

The foundation of my vegetarianism is that all this suffering is completely unacceptable when cruelty-free, nutritious, environmentally sound and above all tasty alternatives are readily available.

Yes, that's exactly my philosophy! I've found that I prefer things like soy milk to regular milk, and soy ice cream to regular dairy ice cream.

Thanks for that link about pig farming - that really shows the difference between a "family" farm (what most of us probably think of when we think of farms, the animals being outside with plenty of room) and factory farming. Keeping animals in cages their whole lives is a crime in itself.

I know there are still people in the world who don't believe animals have feelings, much less intelligence. But what we're learning now is that they're very much like us in both ways. If a factory farmer could somehow suddenly "see" exactly what a pig or cow or chicken or any other animal in the farm feels during its life, I think he'd be horrified.

I forgot to mention that I didn't know the UK had a higher percentage of vegetarians than any other country besides India. That is really something! Big cheers for the UK!!! :cheer:

[made of stone]

I forgot to mention that I didn't know the UK had a higher percentage of vegetarians than any other country besides India. That is really something! Big cheers for the UK!!! :cheer:

Sarapva san, I'm not sure where those figures come from, and it's true that the UK has much higher (and regulated, some would suggest!) rules about animal welfare than much of Europe - (our pigs must roam almost free-range, for one example, while those in Eastern Europe,especially, are bred and live in dank 'shelters' where their babies suffocate in the pools of mud and faeces, and forgive me if I don't go on...) - but leaving that aside, many 'vegetarians' here are quite happy to eat eggs, drink milk, wear animal products and by-products - and so I don't think the comparison of that survey stands.


The foundation of my vegetarianism is that all this suffering is completely unacceptable when cruelty-free, nutritious, environmentally sound and above all tasty alternatives are readily available.

Taiko san, a very many thanks for your comments :) Could you please throw some light on where you generally get your nutritious and environmentally-sound foodstuffs from? That conundrum is one of the things that's stopping me from returning to live in Japan. Cheers!!

mos :)

[包龙星]

If we want to stay health. It is not important to be a vegetarian~ Balanced diet is the best choice~:wave:

[Revenant]

I've read that vegetarians and flexitarians (those that just eat meat once or twice a week) supposedly have the healthiest diet. A balanced diet might include a small low-fat serving of dairy, and an ounce of fish or meat a day if the above is true. At least in the North American diet, most people eat far more than that.

[Sarapva]

Sarapva san, I'm not sure where those figures come from, and it's true that the UK has much higher (and regulated, some would suggest!) rules about animal welfare than much of Europe - (our pigs must roam almost free-range, for one example, while those in Eastern Europe,especially, are bred and live in dank 'shelters' .... many 'vegetarians' here are quite happy to eat eggs, drink milk, wear animal products and by-products - and so I don't think the comparison of that survey stands. mos :)

I'd be interested in where the survey did come from - Taiko666, do you have a link to it (showing that the UK has more vegetarians except for India)? But just the fact that the UK has better welfare laws for animals puts it on a higher level of morality in my view. For example, the UK has made the production of foie gras (force-feeding ducks and geese) illegal, whereas the U.S. still has legal foie gras farms. I think only a couple of states in the U.S. have banned the small gestation crates for pigs and veal crates for calves. We're getting there slowly, I think.

As for not being completely vegan and eating eggs or milk, if it comes from organic farms the animals are much more likely to be treated humanely (as part of the regulations for being organic). If the UK has laws to protect its pigs, the dairy farms are probably okay, too.

Revenant - That's the first time I've seen the term "flexitarians"! I wonder if it's in any dictionaries?!

[urd]

I'm no vegetarian.
I eat meat only from time to time simply because I don't like it that much.
Anyway I think everyone should respect the others decision concering eating meat or not.

[Revenant]

Anyway I think everyone should respect the others decision concering eating meat or not.I'd argue that if we keep the well-being of the generations that follow us in mind, we ought to give thought to the farming techniques that we employ to meet our current consumption, and whether we actually need to produce and consume as we do.

[Taiko666]

I'd be interested in where the survey did come from - Taiko666, do you have a link to it (showing that the UK has more vegetarians except for India)?

Ok I have to admit that that was 'something I read' in a magazine a few years ago, but it's partially backed up by these statistics which I've had to scour the net for:

European (http://www.ivu.org/news/95-96/general.html)stats

Australian (http://www.vnv.org.au/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=53&Itemid=64) stats

New Zealand (http://www.greens.org.nz/food-revolution/vegetarianfood.asp) stats

North American (http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/sis8739)stats

However they only include a handful of western nations. But with those stats, and some consideration of which other countries are likely to have high vegetarian populations (I can't think of any...) I'd bet a sizeable sum that the UK veggie percentage is the world's 2nd highest.

[Sarapva]

Thanks for researching that, Taiko666 - it looks like you're right about the UK having one of the highest percentages of vegetarians, but then in the polls it depends on the definition of the words and whether dairy products are included, etc. In one of the U.S. polls it showed that 7% of adults never eat meat, but just 1% were completely vegan. Nevertheless, the trend of vegetarianism is rising, which I'm very glad about!

[Taiko666]

Could you please throw some light on where you generally get your nutritious and environmentally-sound foodstuffs from? That conundrum is one of the things that's stopping me from returning to live in Japan. Cheers!!
mos :)

Hi made of stone! Sorry I missed your question. As you know being veggie in Japan is difficult... so I've tackled in a number of ways:

1) I've got in to cooking in a big way! Especially after buying a good food blender (can rustle up a bean-burger in 10 mins now, and a bowl of hummus in 1 min) Another breakthrough was learning to make pastry, so things like 'chicken' and mushroom pie are back on my menu...(made with a Quorn (www.Quorn.com)-like chicken sub.)

2) When I eat out it's mostly at non-Japanese places (Indian, Italian, British pub etc.) If I'm in a group at an izakawa I just scour the menu for safe options, which usually turn out to be chips (fries), tofu, cheesey fried things and salads- holding the prawns, octopus, squid, bacon etc. Not that exciting, but the sake/shouchou makes up for it. If I'm at an okonomiyaki place I just ask for non-meat ingredients, and even at a yakiniku place you can make yourself a veggie kebab. Of course, Subway is god-send...

3) I've found some organic/macrobiotic places that sell veggie food. The 'Natural House' supermarket chain has tons of veggie stuff... burgers, huge variety of meat subs (including an amazing 'ham'), and lots of great ingredients. They even have simple, obvious veggie sandwiches (eg feta cheese-olive-sundried tomato) which for some reason seem to be completely absent in Japan.
Plus there's a specialist macrobiotic place near my flat that has a huge range of veggie stuff, including a large part of the American 'Amy's Kitchen' range.

4) I've allowed myself two vices in Japan. I'd been eating soba/udon for 6 months before I realised dashi usually has small amount of fish stock in it- but I haven't stopped eating it. And when eating out, I know the only places where you're guaranteed *not* to get chicken stock in 'veggie' items are at Indian and British places (Italian places are usually safe, but even Mexican places put it in the tortillas.) But if I'm in a group I've adopted a 'don't ask' policy. Japan seems to have a fetish for chicken stock... it's in just about every veggie-looking pre-prepared meal in a Japanese supermarket.

[Mitsuo]

I am not a vegetarian or vegan, but I do have a high degree of respect for those who choose to live that lifestyle. Actually, at one point in time, I did consider trying vegetarianism, but that was a long time ago and I was too lazy to change. But not too long ago I had a really hard time eating meat because of my anatomy lab, where I dealt with dissected human cadavers. The image and smell stayed with me for a while and ruined much of the foods that I enjoy to eat. I got over it.

[Mars Man]

But not too long ago I had a really hard time eating meat because of my anatomy lab, where I dealt with dissected human cadavers. The image and smell stayed with me for a while and ruined much of the foods that I enjoy to eat. I got over it.

I am glad that you got over it. This did bring to mind one fact, actually, that can be taken in at least two ways, namely, meat is meat, afterall.

When I lived with those from Gujarat, India (notice 'from') I didn't eat meat much at all--of course. The variety of tastes and the spicyness were enough to keep it from getting boring.

Although I am not won over yet by the 'moral' argument, I do tend to think that a non-meat diet would be good for giving greater 'value of presence' to other animal forms as well as ourselves. This is, I will aquiesce though, due to having a larger brain than other carnivorous animals. At the moment, I do eat meat, but less red meat than when living in the USA.

[Sarapva]

Although I am not won over yet ...

This means there is still hope!

[Mars Man]

Yes, that would be what it would mean, by logical inference. Let's see what happens.

[Tsuyoiko]

Is it possible to be a good vegetarian entirely by choice? I mean, if you accept the moral argument or the health argument and decide to become a vegetarian, can you be successful at it?

Two examples to clarify what I mean:

My mum, my sister and I have all been vegetarian for around 20 years. We became vegetarian because we love animals and now we could no more eat them than eat another human being. The idea of eating meat is anathema - the look, smell and taste of it is repugnant to us.

My dad, on the other hand, became vegetarian at the same time as my mum, but his reasons were different. He accepted the moral argument, particularly with regard to the environment, so he made the choice to give up meat even though he enjoyed eating it. Consequently, he had frequent minor lapses over the years - the odd pork pie at Christmas, things like that. Since he became disabled he started to eat meat again, I think because he is denied so much by his illness that he doesn't want to deny himself anything that he is able to enjoy.

[Sarapva]

My reasons for becoming vegetarian weren't really intellectual reasons like for health or the environment. I decided not to eat any more meat after seeing a video about how animals are used for meat and fur, and was so horrified that right then and there I vowed that I would never eat meat again as long as I lived. That was 3 or 4 years ago, and my resolve hasn't weakened. It was more of an emotional decision, but maybe because I felt it at such a deep level it has stuck with me. I don't know if I would make the same decision based on any logical reasons, unless eating meat made me physically ill. Or, maybe more accurately, a decision based on logical reasons might not stick with me (or me with it).

[yumeitsumo]

My best friend is a vegetarian. I am planning on being a vegetarian temporarily. Cuz I wanna lose weight. LOL, I'm not a big person I just have a little bit of a belly. So.. yeah

[yamahaR1]

I am scientifically classified as a carnivore

[Mavrek]

I like to eat the veggies and meat specially i like beef.In my opinion both are necessary for healthy and strong body.

[Tsuyoiko]

I am scientifically classified as a carnivoreI doubt that. I suspect you're actually an omnivore :p

[kairu]

Those who believe meat is necessary for a healthy, strong body (haha, not naming any names....) are a little off track. Basically, everything good that's found in meat can be found in other foods, and those foods don't have a lot of the negatives that come with meat.

I'm a vegetarian for a number of reasons: (A) I never really liked meat. I've known what it was ever since I can remember, and I've had an aversion to it for as long as I can recall.

(B) I saw the slaughterhouse videos, too. That brings me to another point, about people being against vegetarians forcing their way of life on others: I know, in my case, I don't want to force others to become vegetarians. I would, however, prefer that practices regarding the treatment of animals would change, and thus would urge meat-eaters to eat free-range meats, poultry, and fish.

(C) The environmental concerns got to me, haha. The resources it takes to raise meat-animals and then transport them across the country is ridiculous (also why I try to eat local/organic -- the food usually comes from somewhere nearby and thus doesn't have as much of an environmental impact).

Anyway, I did a report on animal rights in my freshman literature class in college (haha)... here's a copy of the handout for anyone who wants to see it:
http://www.csun.edu/~cgz96948/hw/Animal%20Liberation%20handout%20side1.doc

[Goldiegirl]

I was born a vegetarian...really...I wouldn't even eat meat when I was a baby. I would get sick and vomit it all out. My pediatrician told my mom that meat wasn't necessary for me to thrive. Sometimes it was an issue, though and I would get the ole' "your not leaving this table until you finish your dinner.", but after getting sick at the table on a few occasions that stopped. I especially can't stand the smell of fish. My husband made some salmon and these fish cake things and when I walked into the kitchen I started gagging. I thought I was going to be sick. I feel bad though, because he likes it and I don't want him to feel like I am judging him on what he likes, if that makes sense. Overall I don't mind people eating meat (in respect to what animal the meat comes from!), it's a personal choice. I just prefer tofu for protein, there's never any of those grissley bits and stuff! :)

[Sarapva]

I'm a vegetarian for a number of reasons: (A) I never really liked meat. I've known what it was ever since I can remember, and I've had an aversion to it for as long as I can recall.

You and Goldiegirl are the smart ones! I have a cousin who also had an aversion to meat. He grew strong and healthy and could outrun us as kids. And yes, tofu is wonderful!

[magevampjoe]

I don't codemn someone who chooses not to eat meat, but major factors for my eating meat are:
taste
good for you (in certain quantities(I know you can get quorn etc but it isn't normal - meat is natural)
human and animal instinct - we have teeth for eating meat, so use them.
We have been eating meat for thousands upon thousands of years. I'm not going to change it
I also don't really mind if an animal dies to fill my stomach.

A thousand years ago people had to go and kill and animal, skin it, cut it off the bone if necessary, cook it and eat it, then wash the blood off their clothes.
Your aguments back will be 'yeah, but we are a changed world and people don't do that'. But that is what scares me. You have to be politically correct, you can't do this, you have to call a blackboard (the old things at the front of class where you use chalk) a chalkboard in the UK etc etc ETC. People are scared to live. Another part of the other argument 'that was a thousand years ago'. Yes, but it wasn't that long ago - nothing to the age of the earth, and nothing to the age of the human race (and it's predecessors AFTER the monkeys).

Nah, I just eat meat.

An example; pork. If everybody became vegetarian, nobody would eat pork, and so what use would pigs be? Nobody would pay to house a pig if it isn't going to be useful. So pigs would die out, because of nowhere to live and noone wants them.
Same with certain cattle, because certain breeds of cattle aren't used for milk, so they die out. If everyone became vegan, all cattle would go extinct as well.

Anyway, if you want to eat greens, eat them. Don't EVER make a decision based on something you don't agree with. It makes you not you.

[centrajapan]

Dailailama is not a vegeterian. Everyone thinks he is but he isn't. He eats animals.

[Chi65]

He doesn't, see this:

http://www.shabkar.org/teachers/tibetanbuddhism/dalai_lama.htm?gclid=CM7mqau825ACFQZYZwodBASMOQ

[centrajapan]

I've met him. He needs to eat animals for his body. He got sick because he didnt get the proteins from meat. He also said that you can kill mosquitoes.

Visit India. Anyone can meet him.

I am disappointed that the Dalai Lama does not choose to be vegetarian, but I give him credit for discussing the issues

http://www.satyamag.com/july99/sat.60.edit.html

You can also google. Is Dai Lai Lama vegeterian?

[Chi65]

I am friends of the Berlin tibetan buddhist center, directly related to the DL and organising his visits here. They confirmed the first link, not yours.

I was also invited to see him, via Chinese friends, by the way.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/12/329912.html

[centrajapan]

They are lying. I am not. I heard him say I eat meat but if possible one should try to minimanize as much as possible in taking lives. The Tibetan culture is harsh, long winters and cold. It is a land locked region. People in colder climates have been needing to survive on meat where as in trropical warmer climates they can survive without meat. In Tibetan culture there is no wide spread vegeterianism unlike in India where the climate is warmer.

Famous Vegetarians - His Holiness the XIV Dalai Lama of Tibet (1935- ) ?? Despite common Western beliefs, Tibetans, including Tibetan monks, are generally not vegetarian. There is an argument that the high cold mountain region makes it impracticable to grow sufficient plant food, which readers will have to judge for themselves. Apparently there is a tradition of praying for animals before they are slaughtered and not taking any more than are necessary, similar to stories that have been told about Native Americans.

In the mid 1960s the Dalai Lama was in Kerala, Southern India, where a high proportion of the local population have always been vegetarian. Their tradition, as with other parts of India, is of lacto-vegetarianism, using a modest amount of milk products (but not eggs). Whilst there the Dalai Lama decided to become vegetarian but then proceeded to live on a bizarre diet consisting entirely of milk and nuts. If this is true, and it seems to be well documented, it would have been an extremely high fat and very unhealthy diet by any standards. After 18 months he became very ill and his doctors, unsurprisingly, blamed it on the lack of meat rather than advising a better balanced vegetarian diet. He was persuaded to return to meat-eating and has done so ever since.



http://www.ivu.org/people/writers/lama.html

Dai Lai Lama probably eats whale meat too. Its an another one of those urban neo hippie myths. Dailailama is a vegeterian. Probably a marketing conspiracy made by the anti whaling movement like Greenpeace.

[Chi65]

Sorry, they are not lying, why should they?
You can't even write his name right.


Simply compair the dates. . .

[centrajapan]

Why should they say Dailailama is a vegeterian when he isn't? I can write his name in katakana.

You can't even write compair. Whats compair?

[Chi65]

Why should they say Dailailama is a vegeterian when he isn't? I can write his name in katakana.
You can't even write compair. Whats compair?

Then leave "compair" out, and your katakana is of no interest here.
Just the dates and facts..

[centrajapan]

Why don't you state dates and facts? And look into Tibetan Buddhism? TIbet is a region dunno but some place about 3000 meters above sea level. Hardly any trees grow there. Its like a dessert like vegetation. Inuits are not known to be vegeterians either are they?

[Chi65]

Why don't you state dates and facts? And look into Tibetan Buddhism? TIbet is a region dunno but some place about 3000 meters above sea level. Hardly any trees grow there. Its like a dessert like vegetation. Inuits are not known to be vegeterians either are they?

What a joke, just look into the links, there are the dates and facts, for all to see, don't come with old shoes.. . .
You can read, can you?

Or do you need me to write to him or go to the center around my corner and ask once more?

[centrajapan]

Logic is not your strong side is it? Please ask your lying friends about the climate in Tibet.

Undoubtedly, Tibet is one of the harshest places for human existence. It is cool in summer, but excruciatingly cold in winter. In Lhasa, the relatively humane city in Tibet, although the temperature may exceed 29 degrees C (84 degrees F) in summer, it can also plummet to minus 16 degrees C (3 degrees F) in winter!

http://www.travelchinaguide.com/cityguides/tibet/climate.htm

Ah yes tomatoes and beans do grow in sub zero temperatures. I mean Norway is so green in the winter time. The trees have leaves, its the time of the cucumber harvest.

[Chi65]

Logic is not your strong side is it? Please ask your lying friends about the climate in Tibet.


The lyer is you, stay with the truth, please and stop insulting the Center and the people around the DL.
A bit more respect would do you really good.

The rest is not important here, nor was discussed by me.

[centrajapan]

Im saying Dailailama is not a veggie. Get over it.

[Chi65]

Im saying Dailailama is not a veggie. Get over it.
While he now is one. . .

Not my problem if you close your eyes about this.

[centrajapan]

His Holiness is not necessarily vegetarian. ...

http://www.dalailama.com/

Is it only Dalailama your lying friends support or Tibetan Buddhism?

[Chi65]

From when and which page?

Dalai Lama becomes vegetarian again!
Rubber Ritchie | 14.12.2005 19:35 | Animal Liberation | Culture | Health | World
“Lately I have turned to a vegetarian diet. Today’s youth, particularly the ones who have come from Tibet and have a refugee status must inculcate these principles for their own development and to have peace of mind. The message from mahakaruna [Sanskrit: ‘great compassion’] has clearly asked us to follow and preach love and compassion for all living beings.”

[centrajapan]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=no&rls=com.microsoft:no:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7PCTA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=dalai+lama+vegetarian&spell=1

[Chi65]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=no&rls=com.microsoft:no:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7PCTA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=dalai+lama+vegetarian&spell=1

Whats that nonsense?
I asked for the page and date in his own site, where you stated the other words.

[centrajapan]

Please do the rest of your homework. I googled Dalailama is not a vegeterian. And it states that he isn't on his official page. Its not non sense and I have no more time to educating an ignorant with little manners.

Go to India and visit him. And talk with him yourself.

I would not trust your friends though because they are lying.

Study Tibetan Buddhism.

[Goldiegirl]

His Holiness’ kitchen in Dharamsala is vegetarian. However, during visits outside of Dharamsala, His Holiness is not necessarily vegetarian.....so it say at his website....

[centrajapan]

He is a weekend vegeterian then.:p Its not proper vegeterianism if you sometimes eat meat.

[Chi65]

Please do the rest of your homework. I googled Dalailama is not a vegeterian. And it states that he isn't on his official page. Its not non sense and I have no more time to educating an ignorant with little manners.
Go to India and visit him. And talk with him yourself.
I would not trust your friends though because they are lying.
Study Tibetan Buddhism.

Not necessary to go to India or do your work, if you can't answer simple questions, for example about where you copied the sentence and how old it is. You ought to be able to find it again, if not, you should not put it here.

The center is round the corner here, and they also have a phone. . .

[centrajapan]

I went to India and have done my homework. I bet they haven't gone to India. They sound like urban Hare Krishna like people listening to techno on weekends. New age hippies. Apart from their whaling stance they probably are allright people.

Why don't you give them a call. It's 4 in the morning. Are they open 24 hours or someting?

Dalailama is NOT A VEGETERIAN. Get over it.

[Chi65]

I went to India and have done my homework. I bet they haven't gone to India. They sound like urban Hare Krishna like people listening to techno on weekends.
They go to Dharamsala regularly and come from there directly.
We will remember you.

[centrajapan]

They go to Dharamsala regularly and come from there directly.
We will remember you.

You talk like a CIA agent. What are you going to do? Kidnap me and send me to Guatanamo? You should aske them the same questions I asked you to them. How can you only survive on beans if you live in a climate in sub zero temperatures? Its impossible.

[Goldiegirl]

I certainly don't think wether or not some is or isn't a vegetarian is worth all the bickering. No one person is better because of being a vegetarian. Many vegetarians have terrible eating habits compared to "meat" eaters. Too many carbs and not enough veggies and fruits and certainly getting protein can pose some problems. You have to make sure you are eating healthy no matter what you chose to eat! I have a dietician because I can't process b vitamins...eating can be a struggle for me. She keeps me on track and always has good advice for me.

[Chi65]

Right, Goldiegirl, its useles to talk to someone, who always runs sideways (we call this zig-zagging) with new non related questions, but does not answer properly, when asked a simple question first..
That tells me enough anyhow and obviously is his bad style.

Just go on with the other ideas.
I have not even taken sides in the general vegetarian question, nor would, because I am not one, but sympathize. . .be it for my daughter and some friends. For me everyone must know him/herself.

I simply don't like lyers and respectless offenders for offending's sake.

Good night and be well, Goldiegirl!!

[Eponine]

I am not a Vegetarian and never have, nor will be, because I believe that meat is an essential part of the human diet, especially for children and the elderly. I particularly need lots of red meat in my diet for iron as I am mildly anaemic (though green veggies like Broccoli help too). Additionally, I am a keen cook and I just love the taste of meat.

If adults (inc teens / young adults) have tried meat and decided they either don't like it or are morally against it then that is fine. I'm happy to cook vegetarian dishes at dinner parties for those who want it and I respect their strong opinion and willingness to stand up for their principles. But anyone who starts lecturing me about what I choose to eat is liable to get a "Shut up and eat your f***ing steak!" :-)

[centrajapan]

I don't know what there is to argue. Dalailama is not a vegeterian.

[magevampjoe]

I don't get this... why has the topic gone so off-topic? It needs to be split, so can a moderator do that please.

Anyway, even if the climate in Tibet isn't good to grow crops, have you heard of shipping? For instance; bananas don't grow in the United Kingdom, and yet we get them - because they are shipped and transported.

There will be trade routes in and out of Tibet, duh, so they still can be veggies, and not have to resort to eating meat.
Now please, can we get back on topic without
lying friends
and other insults to other members. Please?

If you persist with this different topic I bet a Moderator will probably split it or something.

Goldiegirl tried to take the topic back to where it is meant to be, but you changed it back again centrajapan. So stop it.

[Chi65]

Some vegetarians are not veggies all their life for several reasons, often, because they started much later in their lifes, for many reasons, not just a belief one, but often also.
Some have medical problems and thus have to switch it off now and then, which does not mean, that their beliefs and reasons change much, if at all. Whenever they can, they go back to it.
Also I know many vegetarians, who, while travelling, cannot always control, what they get, because its not always clear, for example whats the base of a soup etc. Often its not even available. But I know many, who, even if they get served what others also have, for the lack of the host's organisation (it often speaks more against the carelessness of organisers than the participants, and as such also about their informations, not to forget)!), they often enough only eat the non meat parts of it. Thus even serving s.o. meat does not say, that he/she actually eats it nor is a non veggie because of this.
Whoever mainly is one, may have occasional exceptions, but that does not make him/her a general non-veggie. To see it this in another way is very closed minded.
The vegetarians simple try to do their best to keep it up, whenever possible, and that is what counts on the scales.

Its a big shame, that tibetan monks are called lyers in this context.
I hardly ever heard as much respectlessness simply for obviously only degrading reasons.

As for my daughter, we had a simple aggreement between us, as a tip: Since I learned a lot about the daily chinese way of cooking, I often prepared the non meat parts in a pot or pan, and then served her first, plus added a bit meat for me later. This never caused any discussions nor fights, and everybody was happy.
Could be a tip for organisers too. :-)

[kairu]

I often prepared the non meat parts in a pot or pan, and then served her first, plus added a bit meat for me later.

I know lots of people who do this, too. It's simple, works well, and makes everyone happy =).

Tt seems so many things have fish/meat bases in Japan, though, that I'm wondering if it will be possible there (and I'm usually very aware of what I eat--I avoid meat/fish-based soups, I don't eat cheese that has rennet or "enzymes" in it unless it clearly states that it didn't come from animals, etc). This is one case in which, like Chi65 said, I may just have to do the best I can to keep it up. However, I'm prepared to do a lot of making-things-from-scratch! :p

[centrajapan]

Its a big shame, that tibetan monks are called lyers in this context.

They are liars to say Dalailama is a vegeterian. He isnt. Tibetan monks have no tradition of being vegeterians. Tibetant monks are people just like anyon else.

What is funny is how German pseudo new age Buddhists take it as an insult that someone would say Dalailama is not veggie. Such imperialistic mind set.

Yoga,7-11s, pork eaters anti whale eaters.

Ying and the yang.

[magevampjoe]

They may or may not be lying. It is all speculation. You have no proof, centra, that the dalailama is or is not a vegetarian. And if you don't believe it, then you have no right to go around messing with people's views of the world. You are not perfect. I am not perfect. You will NEVER stop learning, and neither will anyone else. So don't tell people you are right and they are wrong. If somebody says 'The sky is green', don't comment. If they ASK you 'IS the sky green?' then they want your opinion, but otherwise, it is often best not to comment.

I will repeat in short; NOBODY WANTS YOUR OPINION UNLESS THEY ASK FOR IT, AND IN SUCH A TENTATIVE CONTROVERSIAL SUBJECT THEY DON'T REALLY WANT YOUR OPINION.

Now can we PLEASE get back on topic. If you want to continue this debate please create a thread entitled 'Dalailama; Vegetarian or not?' or something similar, so that people can get back to the real topic; are you a vegetarian, do you agree with it. Not about a person who isn't here to speak.

Thank you.

EDIT; I HAVE CREATED A NEW THREAD FOR YOUR CONVERSATION HERE
http://jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35287

[Chi65]

Exactly and thanks.

Its like this:
You ask someone if he/she is a smoker, and if he/smokes occasionally, that does not make him one, not even, if he smokes a whole packet a year. If he/she mostly doesn't, but occasionally tries a puff, he would rightly be told a non-smoker. Same with drinkers, or stronger: alcoholics or non-drinkers etc.
For example, if I drink now and then, like twice a year or even a bit more, that does not make me a drinker.

Not the other way round in general!

Imagine, someone would try not to drink for a few days, does that make him a general no-drinker, or the same with smoking. . .?
There you go.

Thus its not even an opinion, its a kind of general agreement, according to reasonable proportions(!!!), if the basic line is clear.

You would also call a japanese a japanese, if one parent is non-japanese, but he/she mainly at first sight looks like one. You would not even consider saying, he is not japanese.

Killing a jew already for having extremely low amount of jewish blood (and there its not even a race problem, but a belief thing!!) is..well, you know. . .we had it all, such kind of fanatic thinking for killing's and domination's sake.

To project this onto vegetarians is very very strange indeed. What counts, is their general appearance towards living beings with according respect, whenever they can(!). Which very well makes them, be it just a 90% or so, vegetarians, also apart from some people's private opinions. Such a percentage simply cannot be called non-veggie.
That would be full blind. In general.

I think, this theme in general very well belongs to the thread name, BTW