Samurai: good or bad?

[Browny]

Were the Samurai the modern-day FBI agents? In the sense that they both worked for "feudal lords" and terrorized people? Or were the Samurai the modern-day patriotic soldiers, as depicted in The Last Samurai?
Hmmmmm :?
What's frustrating in today's fictional story telling is that peole are confusing Samurai with Ninja; this messes up people who don't know much (if anything at all) about Japanese history. I don't profess to know much about its history myself, but I know a few important things which give me the ability to distinguish between what could be either right or wrong. Whatever I don't know, I ask!!
And if you've seen Afro Samurai (where Samuel L. Jackson does a horrible horrible horrible job in dubbing his voice for Afro's character) you'd know how people are starting to mix things up!

[Mikawa Ossan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai

Here is a link which describes samurai fairly well.

[KirinMan]

Or were the Samurai the modern-day patriotic soldiers, as depicted in The Last Samurai?

Ahh interesting question here......Why do you think the samurai were "patriotic" soldiers?

[Mikawa Ossan]

My image of samurai is one of bureaucrats, as during the Edo Period, which lasted over 250 years, there was no warfare, and the only fighting was to quell periodic revolts.

[Mike Cash]

The FBI works for "feudal lords" and terrorizes people?

[Chris K]

The FBI works for "feudal lords" and terrorizes people?tbh thats not quite the stetch it first seems.
Just replace the land with oil. Theres definatley a bit of a family dynasty going on.

[Ewok85]

The FBI terrorises people!?

From what I have read of the diaries of some of the first foreigners to visit Japan from Europe (William Adams etc) Japan was a brutal place to live. Justice was heavy and swift - instant death being the penalty for most crimes, carried out immediately by the sword. The common people were worthless, and it was not unusual to see dead bodies left as a reminder.

Personally I think the entire image has been cleaned up and made nice for modern consumption.

[frostyg02uk]

I think it depends on how you look at them and if you understood their way of life at that time. Samurai were simular to european knights. Ones like Miyamoto Musashi is thought of as a saint and others such as yagyu Jubei are now considered to have wandered the land protecting the people from evil doers. Sure they were violent but lets think...what was the rest of the world doing? well america was wiping out the native americans while european countrys were still doing the slave trade and selling guns a weapon that started off as fireworks until war like people used it for other means. To look at that time and think they were barbarians is stupid if your comparing it to our time.

[KirinMan]

The FBI terrorises people!?

From what I have read of the diaries of some of the first foreigners to visit Japan from Europe (William Adams etc) Japan was a brutal place to live. Justice was heavy and swift - instant death being the penalty for most crimes, carried out immediately by the sword. The common people were worthless, and it was not unusual to see dead bodies left as a reminder.

Personally I think the entire image has been cleaned up and made nice for modern consumption.

Heck it wasnt just Japan that had laws like that, even in medival England any person that broke the law was hanged.

It wasnt until ......damn I forgot which Queen it was instituted laws that outlawed hanging for everything other than "henious" crimes that crime exploded in England.

Personally I think that the "medival" laws served their purpose, people then knew that if they were caught or convicted of a crime the sentence was death. Not a bad deterent in my opinion.

[Mike Cash]

tbh thats not quite the stetch it first seems.
Just replace the land with oil.

That makes no sense whatsoever. All the more so considering the original comment came from someone in Kuwait.

Theres definatley a bit of a family dynasty going on.

And that's rich coming from someone in a country that clings to a monarchy, symbolic though it may be.

[EmperorHirohito]

The FBI works for "feudal lords" and terrorizes people?


I always thought the FBI worked for the American Government.

[Ranpyon]

Were the Samurai the modern-day FBI agents? In the sense that they both worked for "feudal lords" and terrorized people? Or were the Samurai the modern-day patriotic soldiers, as depicted in The Last Samurai?
Hmmmmm :?

Just finished a huuuuge report about Tokugawa and Meiji era, and what I can say is...
FORGET "THE LAST SAMURAI".
Samurai were nor good nor bad, they just had to obey their Lord. Nothing but this.

[pugtm]

it kinda hinges on what your own culture and background is. to some the methods they used and the values they upheld maybe thought of as either heavenly or evil. It all depends. Also in life there is very rarely a line in the sand on which says "here lies evil|here be good". Life is shades of grey. So too which samurai are you talking about. their history is a long one and a edo period samurai is different than other periods. its too difficult to just put them in a category.

[Browny]

Thanks, guys!
Mike Cash, you know..it's just that there are plenty of opinions out there. So what if I'm from Kuwait? If you don't see the sense in what I say, it's simply because we have different opinions! If you wanna answer the question and offer some of your sense to me, please do so! I asked for it! If you don't, then please don't kill yourself over wording...

[Clawn]

Samurai were not like modern day FBI agents - in that FBI agents usually do not terrorize people, and that the feudal era is long gone, eliminating the presence of the "feudal lords" that the FBI supposedly works for. :relief:


Anywho, enough of that. I'm going to go ahead and give my opinion on what samurai were. Please note that my limited knowledge on the matter of the samurai comes from: TV shows, a movie or two, three novels (two of them historical fiction), and the brief passage in the history textbook from when I took a World History Class.:blush:

I believe the samurai were trained swordsmen who served, usually with great loyalty, under a feudal lord. They carried out the orders they were given by this lord. Sometimes these orders involved committing heinous acts. However, I believe there may have been many times when samurai committed certain atrocities, on their own accord, by abusing their power.

[KirinMan]

I believe the samurai were trained swordsmen who served, usually with great loyalty, under a feudal lord. They carried out the orders they were given by this lord. Sometimes these orders involved committing heinous acts. However, I believe there may have been many times when samurai committed certain atrocities, on their own accord, by abusing their power.

Take away the swordsman part and it sure sounds like the FBI to me.

Here is a link, with some connecting links as well, about abuses of power within the FBI. Rampant FBI Abuse of Power (http://marvets.com/blog/archive/2007/03/20/1824.aspx)

Sounds like something the samurai would have thought of if they had the same technology available to them back during their time.

[KirinMan]

Sorry to go off topic but if im honest you havnt even contributed to this Thread Mike just critizised someone from Kuwait and England. If im honest the FBI, for the record are NOT like the samurai for one, samurai were ruled by their days sense of Honour for one and for two the CIA are more like the descriptions given. Peace

One name for you here.....J.Edgar Hoover.

[Clawn]

Take away the swordsman part and it sure sounds like the FBI to me.

Here is a link, with some connecting links as well, about abuses of power within the FBI. Rampant FBI Abuse of Power (http://marvets.com/blog/archive/2007/03/20/1824.aspx)

Sounds like something the samurai would have thought of if they had the same technology available to them back during their time.

Now, now, you must remember a few things about the FBI. The FBI serves an entire country, whose leaders are appointed by the people, who are free. The samurai served under a feudal lord, chosen by his blood, who ruled over his peasants, who were not free. As well, the people of today have their personal data "protected", where the peasants of feudal Japan had little "personal data" and little "protection". Another factor is that most people of that era were at the mercy of the samurai and the lords who ruled them. Therefore, if their personal items were taken or their loved ones were killed, there was little they could do about it. Today, we have a justice system that usually stops our "modern day samurai" from killing us and stealing our personal items. We can also complain, without fear for our lives, if we believe the FBI have wronged us without cause. But I can see where one may come to think that samurai and the FBI are similar, for both were powerful enforcement figures of their time, and both have abused their power.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

:?
A feudal lord is a samurai, too.

A definition of a samurai talked about here is unclear.

Samurai in age when?

[yukio_michael]

I think if we are talking about the samurai during the late period of the Tokugawa Shogunate, there was a transitional period--- where samurai were enforcers of the Shogunate rule, at least those who weren't actively planning to remove the Shogunate, as is my understanding---

In effect the Shogunate were holding back Japan by their staunch isolationist policies, though certainly more than a few rebelling samurai were aware of this, and were essential in what led to the Meiji Restoration...

From wiki:

By this time, the Way of Death and Desperateness had been eclipsed by a rude awakening in 1853, when Commodore Matthew Perry's massive steamships from the U.S. Navy first imposed broader commerce on the once-dominant national policy of isolationism. Prior to that only a few harbor towns, under strict control from the Shogunate, were able to participate in Western trade, and even then, it was based largely on the idea of playing the Franciscans and Dominicans off against one another (in exchange for the crucial arquebus technology, which in turn was a major contributor to the downfall of the classical samurai).

From 1854, the samurai army and the navy were modernized. A Naval training school was established in Nagasaki in 1855. Naval students were sent to study in Western naval schools for several years, starting a tradition of foreign-educated future leaders, such as Admiral Enomoto.

French naval engineers were hired to build naval arsenals, such as Yokosuka and Nagasaki. By the end of the Tokugawa shogunate in 1867, the Japanese navy of the shogun already possessed eight western-style steam warships around the flagship Kaiyō Maru, which were used against pro-imperial forces during the Boshin war, under the command of Admiral Enomoto. A French Military Mission to Japan (1867) was established to help modernize the armies of the Bakufu.

The last showing of the original samurai was in 1867 when samurai from Chōshū and Satsuma provinces defeated the Shogunate forces in favor of the rule of the emperor in the Boshin War (1868-1869). The two provinces were the lands of the daimyo that submitted to Ieyasu after the Battle of Sekigahara (1600).

It makes sense when you consider that you can at times more easily create a revolution with a pen, rather than a sword. I think it's easier to understand the samurai's function as deals with government, rather than the common people, as they essentially became part of the aristocracy, rather than a military force.

This is my understanding of it--- if someone would like to add any input, or feel I made an incorrect statement, please feel free to correct me.

[frostyg02uk]

Even though Ryoma Sakamoto (Legend) did much for the Meiji era to come about and was also a samurai i dont think he was too fond on the idea of opening Japan to foreignors either. If anyone doesnt know the name i think for those interested in this time to look him up, i know many people in japan today respect him greatly.

[Clawn]

:?
A feudal lord is a samurai, too.

A definition of a samurai talked about here is unclear.

Samurai in age when?

Please excuse my lack of knowledge in that area. I am not sure in what time period the samurai I was discussing were alive. :sorry:

[Browny]

Samurai were not like modern day FBI agents - in that FBI agents usually do not terrorize people, and that the feudal era is long gone, eliminating the presence of the "feudal lords"
Please understand that I am aware that Feudal era is long gone, and that FBI agents are not Samurai; my use of the terms was merely symbolic. Obeika probably got what I meant by comparing Samurai with FBI, and absolutely not in the sense that a few others understood it in the literal meaning. We are hundreds of years after any Samurai era, so yes I know that the rules, protocols and the whole game are different now. But if you think of it from a symbolic point of view, what it meant to the poor peasant back then and what it means to the hard-working common guy today (with several factors considered), you'd be surprised of the similar points the two share!
Now, now, you must remember a few things about the FBI. The FBI serves an entire country, whose leaders are appointed by the people, who are free. The samurai served under a feudal lord, chosen by his blood, who ruled over his peasants, who were not free. As well, the people of today have their personal data "protected", where the peasants of feudal Japan had little "personal data" and little "protection". Another factor is that most people of that era were at the mercy of the samurai and the lords who ruled them. Therefore, if their personal items were taken or their loved ones were killed, there was little they could do about it. Today, we have a justice system that usually stops our "modern day samurai" from killing us and stealing our personal items. We can also complain, without fear for our lives, if we believe the FBI have wronged us without cause. But I can see where one may come to think that samurai and the FBI are similar, for both were powerful enforcement figures of their time, and both have abused their power.
Like I said, you're taking it too literally. It's not about confiscation of land or killing of people or any of that. My use of "FBI" is also symbolic, I don't mean the USA, I don't mean the KGB, or the Mossad or the CIA or any entity in particular! It's just what it means to YOU...the regular citizen.
Yukio Michael, that was helpful, thanks :cool:

[Ewok85]

The comparison of FBI to samurai is so far apart its worth pointing out the differences.

In today's world you have choice in what you can do for a living, where you live, and who you relate with. But for a long time in Japan's history (and like many other cultures) you were born into a particular lifestyle, and almost never could you escape it. Children of Nobles became nobles - children of warriors became warriors, children of peasants remained peasants. Like the England of old the "common people" were nerfs owned by the regional lord, and were treated pretty badly, sometimes treated just like cattle.

In todays world you can be born of a "common" person, and become a politician, the closest thing to ancient "nobles" that exist in todays work (when considering the content of the work). In old Japan it was unheard of to go from being a merchant (one of the lowest "classes") to being a peasant, or even a samurai.

Where you could live was decided, what you could do was decided. You could not just up and move - you were property of your daimyo. When told to do something, you do it, or die.

Alot of this changed in the late Edo period, and even more so in the Meiji period, and like someone pointed out is similar to what was seen in medieval England.

Would love to know how any of this is even remotely similar to the FBI...

[Mikawa Ossan]

Were not the "feudal lords" samurai, too? This means that the shogun of Japan was a samurai, also.

By asking if samurai were good or bad, you are asking if the entire governing class of Japan was good or bad.

[pipokun]

Browny's argument is not necesarily out-of-point argument.

For both the victor, the Meiji govenment, and newly born lefty point, Marxist, point of views, the Edo must be the darkest history in Japan. I read somewhere that Marx described Japan as the genuine feudalism without knowing ordinary people played a great role in the Edo culture.
8-10% ruling class in Japan was much higher than in Europe, China or wherever, but the samurai did not own any lands, but just had taxation right in the rice-oriented physiocratic system. And it is hard to find other ruling classes saying something like "Thrift is the best policy" (the present politicians and bureaucrats should be after the example of the shogunate).
A young historian found household account books of a methodical samurai who kept them for more than 30 years in the late Edo. It was only one family record, but his book tells me the samurai was not the exploiting devil.

Anyways, 16th and 17th century were greatly different periods.
200 years to go for current Japanese when we can say to our ancesters we create more peace than the Edo.

[yukio_michael]

Were not the "feudal lords" samurai, too? This means that the shogun of Japan was a samurai, also.

By asking if samurai were good or bad, you are asking if the entire governing class of Japan was good or bad.I think this is what I implied in my post... ;)