primary school English

[Glenski]

I would be interested in hearing from teachers here, whether they have experience teaching primary school or not.

Despite what the government thinks (and the current administration seems to have different ideas than the previous one anyway), what is your opinion of teaching English in primary school? Granted, at the present time, lessons are offered only rarely, perhaps once a month, but even given that, the main point I would like to focus on is whether you think spoken English or reading should predominantly be taught, and why.

This has been raised on another forum, so I was hoping for a different audience here, and I would like to ask that people who respond indicate their teaching status.

[Hitomin]

I agree that English have to be taught in primary school for 2 reasons. First English is global language. If I can speak English, I talk with a lot of people around the world. Second it is hard for our Japanese to speak in English with right pronunciation. So we have to hear English in the primary school.

[KirinMan]

Glenski great question, I agree that the primary schools should be teaching English and not the half-arsed way that many are forced into doing it now.

Sure teaching primarily spoken English sounds like a nice goal, however it is next to impossible to grade it subjectively if it becomes a regular part of the curriculum here. In my opinion a more structured course needs to be developed, one that includes written, reading along with spoken English.

It is known that younger children are more than capable of learning a second language along with their native one so the concerns about the children losing their abilities in Japanese are rubbish from my point of view. It's the manner in which classes are taught overall that has created this problem.

It is known by many that Japanese teachers teach to the test and once the kids learn something many forget it the day after the test. They need to be taught that English is different and it is a life long skill that they are attempting to master.

[Mikawa Ossan]

The problem with teaching English in elementary schools is that if it becomes formalized, there will inevitably be a list of words that students will be expected to learn and anything not on the list will be almost completely ignored.

In other words, I don't think that in Japan it is a good idea for "buearocratic" reasons.

[Glenski]

As for grading, a subjective pass/fail or satisfactory/unsatisfactory will do in my book. We are talking about elementary ed, anyway. That was the way many of my courses were graded in elem ed. There are also ways to grade more objectively.

Mikawa,
Yes, there is that risk, but look at it practically. For absolute beginners, they are going to be starting out with the alphabet, then basic words just like any other country teaching 2 languages. I don't see a major problem in having an established word list. Gives the teachers (who currently have zero training in EFL) some foundation to go on.

Anyone else have an opinion on speaking vs. reading?

[Mikawa Ossan]

If the word list were just treated as a foundation, that would be fine. However, I am certain that it would be treated as the "everything" and restrict and suffocate real English learning, much as it has done in Junior high school.

[frostyg02uk]

Ive thought for a while that languages should be taught from an early age also in the UK. If you think of somewhere like Holland or even other mainland european countries they all try to encourage their kids to learn a language and its something we should all pick up on. I know I'd be grateful for a second language right now. There is the point of young children not remembering after a certain time but I dont believe that they would forget everything and if they used primary school as a foundation to work on I am sure that the standard level would raise within the next 15 years.

[KirinMan]

As for grading, a subjective pass/fail or satisfactory/unsatisfactory will do in my book. We are talking about elementary ed, anyway.
I would however still be worried about subjective grading. The teachers themselves would need to be trained on how to do it fairly. They currently have little or no experience in grading students without having a test grade to base their grades on.

One other thing I would like to add is what would the overall aims or goals be of Elementary School English? Currently as you know there are no set goals other than children gaining a better appreciation of English.

What's the point of getting them to appreciate English in ES only to have them lose it when they get to JHS because they finally are exposed to the Japanese method of teaching grammatical English with very little emphasis on the practical usage of it?

[Glenski]

Obeika,
You seem to think that students will definitely lose their English once they've gotten into JHS. I don't think you can make such a supposition. If they have more experience with English before they even get to JHS, they will be more receptive to it there. Yes, of course, the teaching needs to be improved in JHS, but they will be more prepared and eager (theoretically) if they have practice in ES.

Aims of ES English? Well, let's set them here. Speaking or reading emphasis? And, to what degree? I agree that all of this needs to be worked out.

As for subjective grading, how do ES schoolteachers grade kids now on various things, like art class? or citizenship? or many other things? I can't believe that ES students have exams akin to that in JHS, or at least nearly as much.

Mikawa wrote:
I am certain that it would be treated as the "everything" and restrict and suffocate real English learning, much as it has done in Junior high school.I disagree that vocabulary would be treated as "everything".
1) nouns, adjectives, and verbs would be the staple, of course, but teachers would have to somehow present the fillers, too (prepositions, adverbs here and there, etc.). Having a word list in JHS doesn't mean teachers there teach only the definitions of such words, does it?
2) As for suffocation in JHS, it's my experience that the suffocation begins more in high school, perhaps in the last year of JHS, depending on the program. JHS kids seem very eager in the beginning, and with a foundation from ES, they may actually have more enthusiasm.

Neither of you seems to be commenting on the main point here, and that is whether reading or speaking should be the main focus of ES English. Care to comment?

[JimmySeal]

I think speaking and a good dose of phonics would be best for that age. Too much focus on reading and you'll start to lose most of them, but if you teach them how to use the alphabet, they'll learn to be able to sound out words on their own and that's a good thing.
And at that age they are more receptive to learning correct pronunciation, less set in their ways, and that's one reason why heavy speaking focus would be great. Of course, if Japanese people are teaching the classes, that's a bit out of the question for many schools.

[KirinMan]

You seem to think that students will definitely lose their English once they've gotten into JHS. I don't think you can make such a supposition.
In the current situation I would suggest that many do, they learned very simple expressions and greetings but once they get into the later half of their 1st year and onwards many lose what they were taught in ES. That is also due to the manner in which many JHS JTE's teach their students.

Many, not all of course, expect students to respond in full grammtically correct sentences when responding to questions. Plus the manner in which each teach asks questions is different and they the students get accustomed to only hearing one pattern of speech. Many can not understand the exact same questions being asked when a different teacher talks to them.

I also dont think that it is all black and white in either choosing spoken English or reading and writing, a balance between the two would be more proper in my opinion.

There used to be a book called Jack and Betty that was used here in Japan many many years ago to teach Japanese kids English, something along the lines of "See Spot Run" and the many of the people that learned from that text still can speak English today.

As for subjective grading, how do ES schoolteachers grade kids now on various things, like art class? or citizenship?
First I am not sure, if I remember correctly from my daughters education it was pass/fail. THe core subjects were test based grades, and English would be considered a core subject right?

If they have more experience with English before they even get to JHS, they will be more receptive to it there. Yes, of course, the teaching needs to be improved in JHS, but they will be more prepared and eager (theoretically) if they have practice in ES.


I agree in theory this should be the case. Even some kids that come from English intensive ES's lose their energy for learning English because it is all textbook and grammar based.


Is this just a theoretical discussion or are you aware of any concrete plans about the changes proposed in ES English education?

[caster51]

The education of the national language is more important in elementary school
and The class of English is not necessary though I am not opposite to the study of　English for elementary school kids.

It is a just conception of about "If it understands English ", it is advantageous in the future.

If English is seriously necessary really as the country, it is necessary to do
the half of the class in English.

All channels of the ground wave television are made English excluding local　broadcast.
It doesn't reach at the level absolutely more effective by the compulsory
education if there is no such environment.

However, Japanese language would collapse surely.

[Glenski]

First I am not sure, if I remember correctly from my daughters education it was pass/fail. THe core subjects were test based grades, and English would be considered a core subject right?English for the lower elementary school grades was going to be proposed as a mandatory course, but the Abe administration is putting the brakes on teaching English at all in ES. However, if it were to be taught in ES, by sheer virtue of its newness and uniqueness, those first couple of grades would probably not involve such serious tests/quizzes/etc. because it would have to involve more things like learning the alphabet and some key words (nouns, adjectives, verbs) and not much grammar per se. So, in my opinion, until they have some foundation, subjective grading would be acceptable.

Is this just a theoretical discussion or are you aware of any concrete plans about the changes proposed in ES English education?
As I wrote above, Abe and his cronies have put the kibosh on establishing English as mandatory in ES. I started this thread because of another discussion I had in a different forum, where someone said reading (and ONLY reading) was important for ES, and that speaking should not even be considered. The discussion generated a lot of heated, but mostly professional remarks back and forth, and in order to get a more neutral response, I brought the question here.

caster,
Two questions for you:
1) Since you haven't really addressed my main point here, let me ask you directly -- do you think elementary school English should be taught primarily as spoken English or reading?

2) "However, Japanese language would collapse surely." Can you explain your thoughts on this? I'd rather keep this a separate point unless you have some link to my point (spoken vs. reading), but I'm willing to hear why you make such a remark (much like the Abe contingent).

[KirinMan]

As I wrote above, Abe and his cronies have put the kibosh on establishing English as mandatory in ES. I started this thread because of another discussion I had in a different forum, where someone said reading (and ONLY reading) was important for ES, and that speaking should not even be considered. The discussion generated a lot of heated, but mostly professional remarks back and forth, and in order to get a more neutral response, I brought the question here.

Interesting position, I am curious now why the individual that proposed only reading for ES children took that position? Off the top of my head I would wonder how that person would expect children to be able to be taught to read without being able to verbalize what they are reading? Would they be expected to learn by osmosis?

There would in my opinion have to be at a minimum some spoken English taught, at least phonics, for the children to be able to actually read any material given to them. So in effect even the people that support reading only would have to admit that some spoken English needs to be taught for the children to understand what they are reading. Wouldn't the two go hand in hand?

[maushan3]

caster,
Two questions for you:
1) Since you haven't really addressed my main point here, let me ask you directly -- do you think elementary school English should be taught primarily as spoken English or reading?
2) "However, Japanese language would collapse surely." Can you explain your thoughts on this? I'd rather keep this a separate point unless you have some link to my point (spoken vs. reading), but I'm willing to hear why you make such a remark (much like the Abe contingent).

I know these questions were not for me and caster is not exempt from answerinf these, but I would want to say that the answer to these questions might be that, as I understand, all Japanese students undergo 6 years of English, however, close to nil could speak, or understand it at an acceptable level. So, the answer, I think it is not so much whether it should be taught early on, but that the education system must change somehow, because, guess what?? kids are not learning a thing and I would assume something is going wrong, and it probably is the way they teach. I don't know what needs to be done to change the system, but it might be something this current administration should consider.

I am no expert in education, but we don't need an expert to tell that something is going wrong in teaching methods in the classrooms.

Mauricio

[caster51]

1) Since you haven't really addressed my main point here, let me ask you directly -- do you think elementary school English should be taught primarily as spoken English or reading?

2) "However, Japanese language would collapse surely." Can you explain your thoughts on this? I'd rather keep this a separate point unless you have some link to my point (spoken vs. reading), but I'm willing to hear why you make such a remark (much like the Abe contingent).

I think it does not need　to teach it in elementary school at all .
However, I am not opposite that kid studies english outside of elementary school.

[Glenski]

I think it does not need　to teach it in elementary school at all .
caster,
That is not an answer. Please tell us why you think it is not needed in elementary school at all.

Obeika,
I'll show you the article that stimulated the discussion.
http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yomiurijun2207vt8.jpg
The original doesn't stay active in the newspaper archives, so someone kindly made this imageshack copy.

[caster51]

Please tell us why you think it is not needed in elementary school at all.

it does not need it.
It is more important to teach the Chinese character.
To begin with, English is not necessary in elementary school.


sing a song in english, some game in english, this is a pen...so on in elementary school?
it is a waste of time.

[diceke]

2) "However, Japanese language would collapse surely." Can you explain your thoughts on this? I'd rather keep this a separate point unless you have some link to my point (spoken vs. reading), but I'm willing to hear why you make such a remark (much like the Abe contingent).

Unless you are teaching Japanese children in an English speaking country, language attrition is not a major concern. But it's just that people are more willing to invest their limited time and resources in the subjects that matter most, and perhaps English doesn't have the highest priority at the moment.:souka:

[JimmySeal]

Interesting position, I am curious now why the individual that proposed only reading for ES children took that position? Off the top of my head I would wonder how that person would expect children to be able to be taught to read without being able to verbalize what they are reading? Would they be expected to learn by osmosis?
Not sure what Glenski's associates were saying, but I know there is a school of thought that says a foreign language learner should read and listen for a good two years before trying to produce utterances of their own. I think there is some merit to that way of thinking, and I am, in a way, doing just that in my study of Chinese, but as I've said before, I think Japanese kids need to get started on pronouncing English as soon as they can, even if they're not forming complete sentences.

I've been told that some Japanese language learning attitudes stem from their way of teaching kanbun, basically learning to read another language in Japanese without having to produce original sentences of their own.

[caster51]

as I've said before, I think Japanese kids need to get started on pronouncing English as soon as they can, even if they're not forming complete sentences.
i think this is the biggest broblem about english education.
it is just for Exam
that is, there is no english hearing and conversation classes in JHS.

when i studled chinese, I felt it keenly.
however it is enough from JHS

[Glenski]

caster,
Your "explanation" is about as ridiculous as I'd imagined, but thanks anyway.

Others,
Let's stay on topic: reading or speaking in elementary school.
I do NOT want to debate whether English should be in ES! That is not the point here! If you want to do that, please do so on another thread.

[Dutch Baka]

I think that there should be a more ballanced way of learning English on JHS and HS. Writting and speaking. And with speaking I am talking about repeating stuff....

I, myself, have never been to a JHS before so I am not really aware of how they teach English there.

For pronounciation, you should take care of that on the ES's. Listening skill should be taken care of by changing Dubbed movies, into subbed movies for example.