If you are already in your teens you cant learn a new langauge?

[pugtm]

I was reading online and it said that people who have lived beyond puberty cannot learn a language to a fluent level. Has anyone here disproven this or is it true? Does this mean i shouldn't bother learning japanese? Some advice please because this is very discouraging to me.

[Arch]

Complete and utter crap. I moved to Germany two years ago when I was 17 and I learn't German (still learning) without much of a problem.

[frostyg02uk]

Loads of rubbish lol. Although the younger you are the better i know someone who moved to Japan when he was 19 i think and 3 years later hes the most fluent foriegnor i know. Even though i visited Japan first when i was 17 i didnt feel like learning the language till i was 18, nearly 19 and while im not fluent at all i can hold my own in Japan.

[pugtm]

But i dont have the luxury of moving to japan. And on top of that i don't even have a classroom were i can study for at least a couple more years. also right now i am being forced to learn spanish and its not going so well despite the fact i already know 2 foreign languages. of course i have no motivation to learn it so that might have something to do with it but even with Japanese i have no way of getting into a class for 3-4 years. By that time i might have a lot of trouble learning. Another thing, will i have an accent no matter what?

[Soloistic]

If your not motivated to learn you'll never succeed. I have only been studying Japanese for about 3 months myself, and although I feel I have come a long way, I know there is still a long way to go.

I live in Canada, and only started seriously studying French when I was about 12. Now I am almost 19 and am quite fluent if I do say so myself(not as much at the written, but the spoken language). I know firsthand that French isn't as complicated as Japanese from an English background, but age does not really effect the learning curve.

I too won't be able to enter into any language courses for at lest 2-3 years (not much time between work and University) and definitely do not have the money or time to visit Japan anytime soon. I am self teaching myself what I can now however because I enjoy learning and understanding the language. Plus I am intrigued with Kanji in general.

It all comes down to how much you want it and how hard your going to work for it.

[frostyg02uk]

i studied french for 4 years and i can just about count to 10. I had zero interest in it. A language is something you have to stick with even after you "think" your fluent. if you dont use it often your forget things alot. Going to Japan isnt a luxury its something people save up to do. Ive been 4 times since i was 17 (now 21) and everytime ive saved by myself and never had any help from my parents. I think the point is if you want something you work hard for it, weather its a trip to japan or learning a language. Like the above poster mentioned.

[Gorotsuki]

These a person who went to Japan for 3 months and became quite fluent.

[Charles Barkley]

You will almost certainly have an accent no matter what. Unless you end up living in Japan very long term/working for a Japanese company, or were exposed to the language at a very young age. With that said, who cares? If someone speaks great English with an accent, do you end up thinking, 'wow, if only he didnt have an accent, all that trouble he put in would be worth it?' Of course not.

Beware of teaching yourself for too long without the help of a native speaker. You might learn some very bad habits. I would look around your area and try to find a native Japanese conversation partner. Pay them if necessary.

[pugtm]

that might not be an issue since i go to kendo. Its what got me interested in learning the language in the first place, being able to speak to my sensei's in Japanese. thanks for the advice, ill try my hardest.

[JimmySeal]

I think that anyone who tries hard enough can get past having an accent, even if they don't spend loads of time in the country where that language is primarily spoken.

[frostyg02uk]

Some Japanese people say i sound fluent when i use japanese because im often around many Japanese people...but i think they were just being nice haha

[FrustratedDave]

The question that begs to be answered is "What does everyone call fluent?" . Just b/c you can string a few words together and sound like you know the language does not make you fluent. I hate to be the party crasher, but I find it very hard to believe that anyone can become fluent in 3 months. Maybe after 3 years they may have a chance if they studied and talked it all day everyday.

But to answer the question, it is not impossible, but it is very,very difficult and will take a lot of effort and time( I am talking years here).

[frostyg02uk]

Dave is right no matter how harsh it seems. Its thought that you need to of at least stayed in japan for 10 years to be fluent at a native level. 3 months is no where near enough.

[nanook]

Hoax, illogical. Your information about not being able to learn a language any longer after, at exactly the age of 15.417 or so, a mysterious switch has flipped in your brain, which would break all the synapses, that are connected to learning a foreign language, but not those connected to your mother tongue, is utter BS :)

When I came to Japan, my hair was already gray. The brain cells might fire a bit slower than a few decades ago, but that has not stopped me from learning Japanese to a level, which ensures, that I can live here relatively comfortably.

A friend of mine came here, after he retired, well in his sixties. No big problem, it just takes the effort.

Now my hair is turning white and I am thinking about starting to learn another language, an easy one, this time, though :-)

[frostyg02uk]

thats inspirering Nanook. When i started a TESOL course before the teacher told me that their oldest student was a french man at the age of 81 who was rich but bored. I think even if someone isnt learning a subject they are still learning everyday about things even if they dont realise it.

[yukio_michael]

You will almost certainly have an accent no matter what. Unless you end up living in Japan very long term/working for a Japanese company, or were exposed to the language at a very young age.I disagree with that... I've been told by numerous people that I have a very natural sounding accent, with correct intonation, etcetera... I think that it's that some people studying Japanese decide not to emulate the accent at all... that's their business.

I don't fault English learners for maintaining an accent... It's very difficult (I think) for Japanese to lose their accent when learning English, but I think that the number of sounds possible (the limited number) and the simple hi-low tonality make it easier for foreigners to sound more natural in Japanese, if they put effort into it.

[Charles Barkley]

I disagree with that... I've been told by numerous people that I have a very natural sounding accent, with correct intonation, etcetera... I think that it's that some people studying Japanese decide not to emulate the accent at all... that's their business.

I don't fault English learners for maintaining an accent... It's very difficult (I think) for Japanese to lose their accent when learning English, but I think that the number of sounds possible (the limited number) and the simple hi-low tonality make it easier for foreigners to sound more natural in Japanese, if they put effort into it.


There are exceptional people around, and I don't know your situation, but unless you have already lived in Japan long term, or properly learned the sounds at a very young age, I doubt your accent/speech is indisguishable from a native speaker's. That's the criteria I was using for accent. Emulating the accent and doing a great job at that, and dropping the accent altogether, I think are completely different things.

As you pointed out yourself, it seems to you that its very difficult for Japanese to lose their accents when speaking English. That's because you as a native speaker can hear the accent in even fluent Japanese speakers of English. I suspect Japanese can do the same with you in reverse and are just, as always, slightly exaggerating a compliment for your benefit.

People who grew up with Japanese in the household, despite not studying it at a young age, or lived in Japan 5 years+ in a full immersion environment might lose the accent entirely. With that said, I've met plenty of people who have studied the language for a long time, lived here long term, and still have accented Japanese (despite relative fluency). Nothing wrong with that I say.

[Charles Barkley]

And to offer more encouragement for the OP, Japanese is the first foreign language I have tried to study and I started studying it last year, at the age of 22. Before deciding to dedicate myself to it, the idea of learning a foreign language was...well, foreign. I'm still pretty bad, but I'd call myself low conversational now, meaning I can express myself in and understand others in most topics if presented in a relatively easy fashion, and my responses, though riddled with errors, can largely be understood. I'm happy with that. But I have worked very hard, and if I became discouraged, have not allowed myself to quit. I think those two traits are essential, and luckily everyone possesses them if they want to use them.

[yukio_michael]

There are exceptional people around, and I don't know your situation, but unless you have already lived in Japan long term, or properly learned the sounds at a very young age, I doubt your accent/speech is indisguishable from a native speaker's.I never said it was indistinguishable from native speakers, I said it sounded more natural... And I don't think this is something that requires an especial talent... There are gaijin TV personality that have quite plain intonation...

As you pointed out yourself, it seems to you that its very difficult for Japanese to lose their accents when speaking English. That's because you as a native speaker can hear the accent in even fluent Japanese speakers of English. I suspect Japanese can do the same with you in reverse and are just, as always, slightly exaggerating a compliment for your benefit.I really don't think this is correct, from speaking to linguistics majors and the like... the languages ARE different, and learning them from different aspects and groups of people will of course be different... I never said anything to make myself sound better than my Japanese contemporaries... and they would know this here. If you don't think there are fundamental differences in the primary linguistic structure of Japanese and English, I think you are missing the point.

People who grew up with Japanese in the household, despite not studying it at a young age, or lived in Japan 5 years+ in a full immersion environment might lose the accent entirely. With that said, I've met plenty of people who have studied the language for a long time, lived here long term, and still have accented Japanese (despite relative fluency). Nothing wrong with that I say.I think these assumptions are specious reasoning... I know people too... most of those who speak with a slightly less pronounced accent are second-generation... but I'm not basing my judgment on that. I'm basing it on the constructs and sometimes seemingly arbitrary rules for pronunciation of the English language...

Japanese is spoken with very little mouth movement, and English the opposite... You'll see this on television when the Japanese are making light of English...

I find it slightly insulting that you think that I'm trying to impress anyone by my usage of the language... I'm the first to admit that my language skills fall far lower than my usage of the language in speech... But, allow me this one attribute.

I think the problem is that many English speakers feel that they are aping Japanese culture, by sounding TOO Japanese... I just don't believe in that logic...

However, pronunciation or no, a firm understanding of grammar and vocabulary trumps pronunciation, and I admit this.

ps. I've heard English spoken Japanese that sounds like it's being read from a textbook, and English spoken Japanese that sounds closer to what you hear in Japan... again, I don't think this is something extraordinary.

[pugtm]

The question that begs to be answered is "What does everyone call fluent?" . Just b/c you can string a few words together and sound like you know the language does not make you fluent. I hate to be the party crasher, but I find it very hard to believe that anyone can become fluent in 3 months. Maybe after 3 years they may have a chance if they studied and talked it all day everyday.
But to answer the question, it is not impossible, but it is very,very difficult and will take a lot of effort and time( I am talking years here).
Trust me i know i have been speaking Russian since birth and Hebrew since i was around 4 and i still am learning the langauges. I don't expect to become expert in a year but i have my whole life before me. I might achieve it in 20-50 years.

[Nall-ohki]

The most common reason (I believe) people have for believing people cannot learn a language are misinterpretations of the following:

1. Critical Period Hypothesis within Language Acquisition theory.
"Linguist Eric Lenneberg (1964) stated that the crucial period of language acquisition ends around the age of 12 years. He claimed that if no language is learned before then, it could never be learned in a normal and fully functional sense. This was called the "Critical period hypothesis."

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_aquisition#Critical_Period_hypothesis

This has been given some evidence by what's known as "The Forbidden Experiment," whereby infants are denied the chance to learn language for various reasons.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experiments

The misinterpretation here is that the critical period hypothesis only states that if a person does not learn their first language by around age 12, humans lose the ability to learn it.

It does not logically follow that a person is unable to learn a second or third language after the age of 12 if they did not start before then.

The best theory for the limit on initial language is that the neural network that supports language as an integral part of social interaction becomes more or less trained by then; neural networks are not easy to retrain after they have solidified to this degree.

[Mikawa Ossan]

I didn't start learning Japanese until I was in my 20s.

I disagree vehemently with the assertion that one can not learn a foreign language past the age of 12.

[EmperorHirohito]

After reading all posts in this thread then I reckon Im going to be ok, Im 43 and am slowly learning Japanese, my daughter is the one I can thank for that.

Maybe in my Sixties when I can speak Japanese fairly well :)

[Charles Barkley]

I never said it was indistinguishable from native speakers, I said it sounded more natural... And I don't think this is something that requires an especial talent...

Sorry if this caused any confusion. Your response to my original post questioned my asertion that its very hard not to have an accent, so in my last post I was trying to flesh out my definition of 'not having an accent.' As I stated in my last post, to me, not having an accent amounts to being 'indistinguishable from a native speaker.' If your definition is something different, which it appears it is, then we arent really arguing about anything, just have different definitions. Everything in my post was to say its very very hard to become indistinguishable from a native speaker. Sorry if I caused you to read it in any other way.

[Aiyuuji]

I learnt Tagalog when i was 17 and i had no problem at all and now i am studying for japanese people find it more difficult that others thats something you have to get by.

[Elizabeth]

I know firsthand that French isn't as complicated as Japanese from an English background, but age does not really effect the learning curve.
Actually age has a great deal to do with it. Children immersed in a second language environment at an early age, until puberty sounds about right, with enough exposure can learn spontaneously, and I mean without textbooks, flash cards or workbooks, to a point indistinguishable from a native speaker.

For most of us past that critical period, the brain isn't fluid enough to make it an an innate, completely natural process unfortunately. That isn't to say a high degree of fluency cannot still take place. The only difference is it isn't going to be picked up entirely through osmosis in a few years to the point of sounding accentless and fully natural.

[Soloistic]

There is a huge difference from being immersed in the culture and language and learning it from an outside prospective (like the OP). I can accept the fact that children at a young age have a much higher potential for learning, but teaching in a non-immersive environment at any age within reason is similar. It all comes down to effort and guidance and perhaps a little luck.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Sorry if this caused any confusion. Your response to my original post questioned my asertion that its very hard not to have an accent, so in my last post I was trying to flesh out my definition of 'not having an accent.' As I stated in my last post, to me, not having an accent amounts to being 'indistinguishable from a native speaker.' If your definition is something different, which it appears it is, then we arent really arguing about anything, just have different definitions. Everything in my post was to say its very very hard to become indistinguishable from a native speaker. Sorry if I caused you to read it in any other way.Everyone has an accent; there is no way not to have one.

Even in Japanese there are numerous distict accents. I remember when I lived in Yamaguchi prefecture, a lady I had met for the first time asked me if I was from Osaka.

Why?

I had a Kansai accent at the time. One which I regret to say that I have lost...

[Elizabeth]

There is a huge difference from being immersed in the culture and language and learning it from an outside prospective (like the OP). I can accept the fact that children at a young age have a much higher potential for learning, but teaching in a non-immersive environment at any age within reason is similar. It all comes down to effort and guidance and perhaps a little luck.
Children will learn much more easily listening to a native speaker through a process of imitation and mimicry than will most adults. That's what they are receptive to and what their brains are wired to absorb. Anything from television to a classroom teacher to living in the country will generally have some impact. Although obviously the greater amount of exposure, the greater potential for lasting gains.

Contrarily, in a classroom setting being taught an in their mother tongue by a teacher unskilled in the target language is probably a worse situation than for older people. Impoverished lessons could mean picking up bad habits which likely won't be supplemented or corrected with outside materials (texts, tapes, videos...).

This equation reverses itself with age unfortunately, but guidance and luck more than effort I think are the crucial factors for child learning. :souka: