Hiragana, Kana, and Kanji.

[Chaotic]

Konnichiwa. I just recently began to learn the Japanese language, and although I'm learning romaji, I was curious about how I would write Japanese in the future.

Obviously there are 3 forms. I took a trip to Barnes and Noble earlier today and I found all sorts of books that teach you to write in these forms. But which should I learn first, and which is most significant to learn? Arigato!

[nice gaijin]

By 3 forms, are you referring to hiragana, katakana, and kanji? If so, I recommend learning them in approximately that order

[Goldiegirl]

I know that every said to learn hiragana first, and I did, but being in Japan right now, I wish I would have learned katakana first. I think I would be able to read more...even simple things on soup packages, soda cans...little things. I think that if I were going to Japan I would learn katakana first, but really either way you have to learn both! You can't get around that! :)

[Chaotic]

Heh, well...I don't plan on going to Japan for some time. I'm 16, and I certainly don't have that kind of money. In a few years though, definitely. So in that case (me, not going to Japan any time soon), does it matter what I learn first?

By the way Goldie, what's it like there in Japan? Good times?

[hkBattousai]

Konnichiwa. I just recently began to learn the Japanese language, and although I'm learning romaji, I was curious about how I would write Japanese in the future.
You can try using Japanese text editors in the first stage. Doing so, you will get familiar with kana. Then you can start writing with pencil & paper.

Obviously there are 3 forms. I took a trip to Barnes and Noble earlier today and I found all sorts of books that teach you to write in these forms. But which should I learn first, and which is most significant to learn? Arigato!
You have to master Hiragana and Katakana first. On the contrary of what most people say, it really doesn't take too much time to learn them. Just find a text on the net, which consists of both H/K and romanji readings of a lyrics or something else. Try reading it several times.

The big problem is learning Kanji. Ask again when you reach that step.

[Goldiegirl]

Japan is as always....amazing. Kinshicho almost feels like home! :)

Back to language...I know that my teacher said to learn hiragana first because that IS Japanese...it's all the sounds in native Japanese, whereas katakana is for loan words from other languages. I hope that's right! She then said to learn kangi. She has been teaching for over 20 years so I listen to her knowledge.

[Chaotic]

Japan is as always....amazing. Kinshicho almost feels like home! :)
Back to language...I know that my teacher said to learn hiragana first because that IS Japanese...it's all the sounds in native Japanese, whereas katakana is for loan words from other languages. I hope that's right! She then said to learn kangi. She has been teaching for over 20 years so I listen to her knowledge.

That sounds great :) I'd count myself lucky to have such an experienced teacher.

[Soloistic]

Basically you master Hiragana and Katakana first which together is known as "kana". After that is down and going smoothly you move into Kanji.

[Chaotic]

Ah, thanks for clearing that up, guys. I'll post again if I have anymore inquiries :P

[nice gaijin]

...my teacher said to learn hiragana first because that IS Japanese...it's all the sounds in native Japanese, whereas katakana is for loan words from other languages...
Phonologically, the sounds corresponding to hiragana and katakana are identical in every way. The latter is simply used more often for approximating the pronunciation of foreign words, which often include kana combinations not seen in native Japanese words, but it is still using the Japanese vocabulary of sound articulation. Usage-wise, this is a fair assessment, but technically, it's not correct.

[frostyg02uk]

Learn hiragana first. Unless your writing your name or your city or some other foriegn word you wont use katakana that much where obviously your use hiragana quite often.
Anata wa genki desu ka? is all hiragana
Anata wa Rory san desu ka? is still mostly hiragana with little katakana but thats probably the most usage your need at this stage and at this point an exam would probably let you off with using romanji for Rory.

A little tip for learning hiragana too try to learn the right way of pronouncing the words. your be more understandable in the future ;o)

[Chaotic]

Learn hiragana first. Unless your writing your name or your city or some other foriegn word you wont use katakana that much where obviously your use hiragana quite often.
Anata wa genki desu ka? is all hiragana
Anata wa Rory san desu ka? is still mostly hiragana with little katakana but thats probably the most usage your need at this stage and at this point an exam would probably let you off with using romanji for Rory.
A little tip for learning hiragana too try to learn the right way of pronouncing the words. your be more understandable in the future ;o)

What you said in Japanese looks more like Romaji to me?
I think I've got the pronunciations down correctly...at least the ones I've been learning. I bought a certain kit from "Living Language" and I'm basically reading a book the entire time. But any Japanese that's in bold (Dono Koohii o kaimashoo ka? for example), that's what the Japanese dude says (all he says). Seems pretty straightforward, there are plenty of examples and I don't think I'm going to have any problems pronouncing anything in this language.

[pugtm]

hello im also sixteen and beginning to learn. i suggest hiragana first for a slightly different reason. Mainly because once you know it you can write with it and that is in my opinion the best way to learn it. Also with romanji you wont loose the english "mindset". when learning a new language you have to immerse yourself in it or you will not learn as well and you will make mistakes in things like grammar.
try to Make a Japanese mindset and think in Japanese while studying it. Thats why i think hiragana is the most important. Anyways good luck with learning i know how hard learning a language is as Japanese will be my fifth.

[Charles Barkley]

What you said in Japanese looks more like Romaji to me?
I think I've got the pronunciations down correctly...at least the ones I've been learning. I bought a certain kit from "Living Language" and I'm basically reading a book the entire time. But any Japanese that's in bold (Dono Koohii o kaimashoo ka? for example), that's what the Japanese dude says (all he says). Seems pretty straightforward, there are plenty of examples and I don't think I'm going to have any problems pronouncing anything in this language.

I'm assuming you mean that you have a video tape/cd/audio file that is saying the things in bold? If at all possible, try not to guess how to pronounce words until you've devoted considerable study to the language. Some of the most basic words I still mispronounce (or misspell) because I learned them back home when I was guessing on pronounciation (like the word udon). Make sure to expose yourself to real Japanese audio...

[Chaotic]

I'm assuming you mean that you have a video tape/cd/audio file that is saying the things in bold? If at all possible, try not to guess how to pronounce words until you've devoted considerable study to the language. Some of the most basic words I still mispronounce (or misspell) because I learned them back home when I was guessing on pronounciation (like the word udon). Make sure to expose yourself to real Japanese audio...

Well, I've been watching subbed anime for years. I'm honestly having no problems with pronunciations...it all feels natural to me since I've heard a lot of Japanese audio in my days. Obviously I just started learning, but the words I have learned already feel natural to me when I'm pronouncing them, so I'm not worried about that.

I may be concerned about learning how to write in all those forms, but I'm sure I'll be fine (and I'm still watching subbed anime to this day).



By the way, I meant a Japanese native says the things in bold. A man, then it alternates to a woman throughout the lessons, back and forth. Simple enough so far.

[frostyg02uk]

LOl the reason i wrote in Romanji is so you could read. you said before your computer didnt read all of the charectors and that you were learning hiragana so i didnt see much point it using it.

あなたは　げんき　ですか？
あなたは　ロオリ　ですか？

see the difference?

[undrentide]

LOl the reason i wrote in Romanji is so you could read. you said before your computer didnt read all of the charectors and that you were learning hiragana so i didnt see much point it using it.

あなたは　げんき　ですか？
あなたは　ロオリ　ですか？

see the difference?

Slightly offtopic, but please note it is Romaji not Romanji.
(Both roma and ji are Japanese words.)

[Chaotic]

LOl the reason i wrote in Romanji is so you could read. you said before your computer didnt read all of the charectors and that you were learning hiragana so i didnt see much point it using it.
あなたは　げんき　ですか？
あなたは　ロオリ　ですか？
see the difference?

Actually I installed the Eastern package 2 days ago, so I can see Asian characters now. I don't know what they say, but I can see them :-)

[Elizabeth]

LOl the reason i wrote in Romanji is so you could read. you said before your computer didnt read all of the charectors and that you were learning hiragana so i didnt see much point it using it.
あなたは　げんき　ですか？
あなたは　ロオリ　ですか？
see the difference?
I believe ロリー is the katakana for "Rory."

[frostyg02uk]

I just used the same way my friend uses, its his name and thats the way i think his teacher from Japan taught him to do it. If anyone else wants to pick apart my spelling or anything else please ^-^ try hard.

[Elizabeth]

I just used the same way my friend uses, its his name and thats the way i think his teacher from Japan taught him to do it. If anyone else wants to pick apart my spelling or anything else please ^-^ try hard.
I don't care who taught him or you -- ロオリ is Roori and ロリー is Rory and that's the law of the language. :p

[Chaotic]

Okay I have another question that recently popped up. I probably won't be learning to write for a while until I can get a good handle on the speech.

My little Japanese Grammar reference book says this:
In Japan, these characters or Chinese characters are called Kanji. They represent both meaning and sound, and often one Kanji has more than one pronunciation (or reading, as it's commonly called) and meaning.

Then it says this later on kana:
Hiragana and Katakana represent the sounds of syllables.


What exactly does this mean? Does that mean that Kanji characters are pronounced as full words, and Hiragana/Katakana are pronounced as syllables only?

[frostyg02uk]

Roori is the way its intended. but how does ロリー become Rory?　
Although im still unsure what this has to do with the topic....

[JimmySeal]

@Chaotic
It means that kana are used purely for their sound value (like letters of the English alphabet) and kanji are used for their meaning. Most kanji have more than one possible pronunciation each. We have characters a lot like this in English too. To see what I mean, think about how the character "2" is pronounced in each of the following items:
23
52
289
1/2
Every occurrence of 2 here is pronounced the same here, but in each case it represents the same idea in different situations.



I think Elizabeth is right here. What would make the most sense is ローリー (ローリ would be my number two pick), I guess the former is already taken by Raleigh and Rowley so for some reason ロリー is the unofficial standard.
But your friend can write his name any way he likes. I write my own name ジェイムス instead of ジェームス. Still, having オ complete a long O in a foreign word is a bit more odd than having イ for a long E.

[nice gaijin]

hiragana and katakana are far different from the alphabet when it comes to describing sound. They are actually moraic writing systems (the mora being a phonological unit under but distinct from a syllable), but since 90% of syllables in Japanese can be described by a single kana character, most people take the easy route and simply refer to them as syllabaries.

What this means, is that almost all kana correspond to a single syllable, as opposed to a single segment (sound). This means that they all are pronounced as either a vowel (あ, い, う, え, and お) or consonants followed by a vowel (almost all of the other characters). Many words serve as simple examples of this structure: つばさ has three syllables, and three characters "tsu・ba・sa" Although it's by no means proof that hiragana is a syllabary (as it certainly isn't), it's easy to think about it this way in order to help get used to the written language for now.

and yeah, ロオリ is kind of ridiculous. the イ in James can help express the dipthong in the true pronunciation of the name. Writing ロオリ is like writing ジェエムス, incorrect. Part of the problem of this is that it changes the syllable quality; it potentially inserts a syllable boundary in the middle of the long vowel, which could alter the pronunciation and pitch position in the word. In other words, it gums up the works. There's nothing bad about being wrong, but just being too stubborn to do something about it...

[Chaotic]

hiragana and katakana are far different from the alphabet when it comes to describing sound. They are actually moraic writing systems (the mora being a phonological unit under but distinct from a syllable), but since 90% of syllables in Japanese can be described by a single kana character, most people take the easy route and simply refer to them as syllabaries.

What this means, is that almost all kana correspond to a single syllable, as opposed to a single segment (sound). This means that they all are pronounced as either a vowel (あ, い, う, え, and お) or consonants followed by a vowel (almost all of the other characters). Many words serve as simple examples of this structure: つばさ has three syllables, and three characters "tsu・ba・sa" Although it's by no means proof that hiragana is a syllabary (as it certainly isn't), it's easy to think about it this way in order to help get used to the written language for now.



I think I get it. Could you please write a single example in kana (break it down in syllables, or something), then one in kanji?

[shikyo]

I think I get it. Could you please write a single example in kana (break it down in syllables, or something), then one in kanji?
(One's own) mother:
Hiragana: はは (katakana would look: ハハ)
Kanji: 母
Romaji: haha

[Chaotic]

So Kanji basically just has one character for each meaning, and hiragana / katakana have syllabic characters.

[shikyo]

So Kanji basically just has one character for each meaning, and hiragana / katakana have syllabic characters.
I wouldn't put it that simple, for example, if you combine the kanji for ahead (先, in this case read as "sen" (on'yomi reading)） and the kanji for birth (生, in this case read as "sei" (on'yomi reading aswell)) it would become 先生 (sensei) meaning teacher.

[Chaotic]

I wouldn't put it that simple, for example, if you combine the kanji for ahead (先, in this case read as "sen" (on'yomi reading)） and the kanji for birth (生, in this case read as "sei" (on'yomi reading aswell)) it would become 先生 (sensei) meaning teacher.

Hmm...seems a little confusing, but English is probably worse (to learn as a second). I'm sure I'll learn exactly how kanji works in due time.

[nice gaijin]

kanji conveys meaning. In Chinese it is simple because it can only be read one way, but in Japanese, most kanji have multiple readings, and in many cases, multiple meanings depending on the context. Stick to hiragana and katakana for now, and tackle kanji later on.

[Charles Barkley]

Well, I've been watching subbed anime for years. I'm honestly having no problems with pronunciations...it all feels natural to me since I've heard a lot of Japanese audio in my days. Obviously I just started learning, but the words I have learned already feel natural to me when I'm pronouncing them, so I'm not worried about that.

I may be concerned about learning how to write in all those forms, but I'm sure I'll be fine (and I'm still watching subbed anime to this day).



By the way, I meant a Japanese native says the things in bold. A man, then it alternates to a woman throughout the lessons, back and forth. Simple enough so far.

Good. Definitely continue watching Anime. Just don't become overconfident in anything--it'll just make it harder if you are making a mistake to correct that mistake. For example, a friend of mine here would always say the 'ne' of 'sou desu ne' like the American pronounciation of 'neigh,' or the 'ei' sound from 'sensei.' I have tried to help her correct this, but because she refuses to believe she is misprouncing it, and has said it the wrong way so many times that it sounds natural, its difficult.

[Chaotic]

Good. Definitely continue watching Anime. Just don't become overconfident in anything--it'll just make it harder if you are making a mistake to correct that mistake. For example, a friend of mine here would always say the 'ne' of 'sou desu ne' like the American pronounciation of 'neigh,' or the 'ei' sound from 'sensei.' I have tried to help her correct this, but because she refuses to believe she is misprouncing it, and has said it the wrong way so many times that it sounds natural, its difficult.

Of course not. I'm never overconfident in anything like this.

Ne would be pronounced neh though, right?

[pugtm]

1 question. I learned hiragana but not katakana. Do i start learning kanji now or later after katakana? I mean you cant have much use for it...

[Charles Barkley]

Can't have much use for katakana? Having picked up the paper sitting next to me and reading the first couple lines, the following examples jump out at me:

アドバイス
チェックリスト
リズム
アップ
ページ
ノート
センチ
ウオーミングアップ
ペース

Not a lot compared to the hiragana and kanji, but enough, and the advantage of all of these words is that you probably know them already, and will be able to read them without having to look up what they mean. Can you tell what the article I'm reading is about (roughly)?

Also, katakana is essential when trying to talk/read about sports, hobbies, names, animals, restaurant menus, music, etc. Learn it as soon as possible, especially if you think you'll be coming to japan soon. But no reason not to learn a few kanji. They're fun at the beginning and I still find them fun. You don't strictly need to learn them for a while though, since most texts you will read will have furigana (hiragana written above the katakana) that enable you to read kanji you dont know.

[Chaotic]

Japanese has one form of speech though, right? :/ It has 3 forms of writing, but it doesn't have more than one form of speech right...

[nice gaijin]

Are you kidding? the "forms" of speech in Japanese are innumerable.

[Chaotic]

Are you kidding? the "forms" of speech in Japanese are innumerable.

I mean the English language has only one word for ... tree, I guess. Why would you want to say "tree" in 3 different ways? Totally unnecessary.

[Glenn]

You don't say it three different ways in Japanese. It's ki, and that's it. But you can write it three different ways depending on audience or style.

[Chaotic]

You don't say it three different ways in Japanese. It's ki, and that's it. But you can write it three different ways depending on audience or style.

That's what I meant...there's different ways to write it, but not a million ways to say it...correct (not counting the type of tree it is, like a Douglas Fir tree for example).

[Elizabeth]

That's what I meant...there's different ways to write it, but not a million ways to say it...correct (not counting the type of tree it is, like a Douglas Fir tree for example).
There may be differences in dialects or pronunciation that vary by local speech / accents, although I doubt it for something as simple as "ki." Also, those differences usually show more with conjugations of verbs, adjectives, etc.

Which is why everyone is always complaining how much more complicated the Japanese writing system is than the ways things are actually said. Not that both aren't necessary of course. Just realize it's much harder to try and speak without being able to read some first even if you don't understand all the reasons for it right now. :relief:

[Chaotic]

There may be differences in dialects or pronunciation that vary by local speech / accents, although I doubt it for something as simple as "ki." Also, those differences usually show more with conjugations of verbs, adjectives, etc.
Which is why everyone is always complaining how much more complicated the Japanese writing system is than the ways things are actually said. Not that both aren't necessary of course. Just realize it's much harder to try and speak without being able to read some first even if you don't understand all the reasons for it right now. :relief:

But I should get decently good at speech before I attempt to write it, right?

[pugtm]

But I should get decently good at speech before I attempt to write it, right?
when i learned my other 3 langauges i learned them side by side but they weren't this difficult. You may be on to something...

[Chaotic]

when i learned my other 3 langauges i learned them side by side but they weren't this difficult. You may be on to something...

Well, English is my first, and only language...so Japanese will be my second. It just makes sense to learn to speak it before you write it (that's what I did with English anyway...).

[Popo]

Hajimemasite.konnnichiwa!
I am a Japanese university student.
I think that you should study hiraganas earlier than romaji when you start studying Japanese.
To see Japanese cartoons and animations is thought to be effective.
You can learn the history of Japan, at the animated cartoon "Japanese
Legends"(Nihon Mukashi-Banashi).
I recommend that.:-)

[Soloistic]

You should learn kana (Hiragana and Katakana) now while your still starting out. Kanji can wait till you have a decent starting vocabulary.

Think of it like this, The JLPT's level 4 requires roughly 800 word vocabulary and about 100 kanji. Though it isn't the best thing to base your studying off of, it is a rough outline of one way you can approach your problem.

[Buntaro]

Chaotic,

You said,

"It just makes sense to learn to speak it before you write it (that's what I did with English anyway...)"

--> That is true. However, as soon as you hear something, you are going to want to write it down, so you can remember it. If you start from the beginning and write everything in Romaji, you will be making a big mistake. Take my adivce: you should never, never write Japanese words in Romaji.

I recommend that you learn Hiragana before you even start learning how to speak Japanese. In the long run, this will work out better.

[Elizabeth]

Chaotic,
You said,
"It just makes sense to learn to speak it before you write it (that's what I did with English anyway...)"
--> That is true. However, as soon as you hear something, you are going to want to write it down, so you can remember it. If you start from the beginning and write everything in Romaji, you will be making a big mistake. Take my adivce: you should never, never write Japanese words in Romaji.
I recommend that you learn Hiragana before you even start learning how to speak Japanese. In the long run, this will work out better.
If you're listening to audio tapes you should also never follow along with the transcription in romaji. The sounds correspond only to kana, romaji is a completely different and artificial system which is not naturally geared to Japanese speech. You're only going to end up extremely confused and frustrated trying to map romaji onto the words and sentences you're hearing.


It's going to be painfully obvious before long that adults trying to pick up a foreign language is a COMPLETELY different process than learning your own language as a child. Unless you're a linguistic genius, you can't expect to acquire grammar and vocabulary solely by ear or reach functional fluency in a matter of four or five years ...:( It's going to take the effort of piecing together what is read with what is heard and trying to remember, or communicate, it all through writing.

[Chaotic]

Eh...I guess I still don't understand how learning a whole other alphabet is going to make it any easier for me to understand how to pronounce Japanese. But I guess you guys would be the experts...they had books at Barnes and Noble on how to write Hiragana and Katakana (both in one book actually...I think they had more on just one of them also), but I went with how to speak it.

So, question. Since I'm not even in a classroom (I may be in one next year however), this is just purely individual study. I can still do the same course I'm doing at the moment right? I'll never try and communicate with Romaji, but it's probably only there just for making pronunciations easier for people familiar with the roman alphabet. I would be alright to study the other course I'm on right now and learning how to write it in a separate book right?

EDIT: I picked up a book called "Adventures in Japanese" earlier today...coursebook/textbook. Looked pretty nice, it's fairly thick and teaches both Hiragana and Katakana. Obviously not to totally master the two forms, but it should give me the knowledge I need at the moment...

[Buntaro]

Chaotic,

You asked,

"I would be alright to study the other course I'm on right now and learning how to write it in a separate book right?"

--> No. Take my advice. Stop studying reading or grammar (in Romaji or Hiragana, it does not matter), and learn Hiragana. Then, you can go back and study grammar or reading only if it is written in Hiragana.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Eh...I guess I still don't understand how learning a whole other alphabet is going to make it any easier for me to understand how to pronounce Japanese. It won't. But it WILL help you to read and write it. Only learning one or even two is like someone learning English but not bothering to learn capital letters.But I guess you guys would be the experts...they had books at Barnes and Noble on how to write Hiragana and Katakana (both in one book actually...I think they had more on just one of them also), but I went with how to speak it.Speaking is fine, but if you are illiterate, your options are quickly limited.

So, question. Since I'm not even in a classroom (I may be in one next year however), this is just purely individual study. I can still do the same course I'm doing at the moment right? I'll never try and communicate with Romaji, but it's probably only there just for making pronunciations easier for people familiar with the roman alphabet. I would be alright to study the other course I'm on right now and learning how to write it in a separate book right?This is actually how I learned Japanese in college. It was the way the class was taught, and I never much liked it.

However, to be honest, it does work. You can learn to speak Japanese solely through romaji.

But it will hurt you when and if you ever do try to learn to read and especially write. In a society where something like 98% of the population is literate, I can not stress hard enough how important reading and writing skills are in this country!

[Elizabeth]

Eh...I guess I still don't understand how learning a whole other alphabet is going to make it any easier for me to understand how to pronounce Japanese. But I guess you guys would be the experts...they had books at Barnes and Noble on how to write Hiragana and Katakana (both in one book actually...I think they had more on just one of them also), but I went with how to speak it.
How are you planning on learning to speak it ? By self-study and listening to tapes at home ?

Romaji is an impoverished alphabet for Japanese that often leaves out letters and parts of sounds (parts of the syllable so to speak) that are in hiragana.
There are also different ways of writing romaji, some of which 'distort' English to make it easier for Japanese speakers to relate to and some of which distort Japanese to make it 'more natural' for Westerners.

If you plan on continuing your studies past an introductory course then virtually all the texts worth using are going to be in Japanese.


If your primary goal is to learn correct speech, then I agree with Buntaro-san. You can continue listening of course but start learning kana at the same time.

[Chaotic]

Ok it was mentioned that I should cease learning the course that has Romaji in it. But I can't just simply let that go to waste, as I just bought it from Barnes and Noble. I did however save the receipt, but I don't think they'll just let me take it back for seemingly no reason.

I want to read AND write all the languages I learn in life, especially Japanese. I wanted to be able to speak it fluently though first, but I guess it doesn't totally matter with Japanese. Like I said, I don't want to simply throw away this other course. It's a good book so far and it's been fairly straight forward in it's teachings. It offers no "learn to write" course though...strictly speech.

Is it that big a deal that I absolutely stay away from Romaji? Why did they even create it then if it's so abominable?

[Mikawa Ossan]

Here is the book that my college used in teaching Japanese.
http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Spoken-Language-Part-1/dp/0300038348/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-8532528-5043900?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184500980&sr=8-2

If you look inside the book, notice how the Japanese is purely written in romaji. The reason for this is that the author of this book, Eleanor Jorden believed that reading and listening are instrinsically linked together, as reading and writing are, respectively. However, since the link between speaking/listening and reading/writing are much more tenuous, it is favorable to the student to separate these fields when learning Japanese. The theory goes that by using romaji, one can learn to speak and listen to Japanese at an exponentially faster rate from the beginning than if one were forced to learn to read Japanese first.

Although I do believe that Jorden is correct in her assertion that one can learn to speak and listen to Japanese independent from reading and writing, and doing so creates an environment where the beginning student can pick up more of the language at a quicker rate by this method, the usage of romaji throughout her books creates a depency on romaji that is difficult to break.

Not only that, but since the written Japanese is handled completely separately, it does not reinforce the language material from the spoken books much at all.

Also, the written language books use much simpler Japanese than the spoken books for obvious reasons, but the result is a huge gap in one's speaking competency and one's writing/reading competency.

[Chaotic]

Here is the book that my college used in teaching Japanese.
http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Spoken-Language-Part-1/dp/0300038348/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-8532528-5043900?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184500980&sr=8-2
If you look inside the book, notice how the Japanese is purely written in romaji. The reason for this is that the author of this book, Eleanor Jorden believed that reading and listening are instrinsically linked together, as reading and writing are, respectively. However, since the link between speaking/listening and reading/writing are much more tenuous, it is favorable to the student to separate these fields when learning Japanese. The theory goes that by using romaji, one can learn to speak and listen to Japanese at an exponentially faster rate from the beginning than if one were forced to learn to read Japanese first.
Although I do believe that Jorden is correct in her assertion that one can learn to speak and listen to Japanese independent from reading and writing, and doing so creates an environment where the beginning student can pick up more of the language at a quicker rate by this method, the usage of romaji throughout her books creates a depency on romaji that is difficult to break.
Not only that, but since the written Japanese is handled completely separately, it does not reinforce the language material from the spoken books much at all.
Also, the written language books use much simpler Japanese than the spoken books for obvious reasons, but the result is a huge gap in one's speaking competency and one's writing/reading competency.


So you're saying I will be fine the way I am, right (and if that's so, should I learn to speak it first or read, or could I possibly just do both if I wanted to)?

[Mikawa Ossan]

So you're saying I will be fine the way I am, right (and if that's so, should I learn to speak it first or read, or could I possibly just do both if I wanted to)?
What I recommend is that you learn to read as soon as possible. If your text is all in romaji, then as soon as you are able, write the corresponding Japanese in your text above the romaji. Try to read the Japanese instead of the romaji as much as possible. It will seem like a pain at first, but you'll be happy you did later.

I am not refuting what anyone else on this thread is saying. I'm just saying that it is possible to learn the way you propose; I'm not actually endorsing it, however.

[Chaotic]

What I recommend is that you learn to read as soon as possible. If your text is all in romaji, then as soon as you are able, write the corresponding Japanese in your text above the romaji. Try to read the Japanese instead of the romaji as much as possible. It will seem like a pain at first, but you'll be happy you did later.
I am not refuting what anyone else on this thread is saying. I'm just saying that it is possible to learn the way you propose; I'm not actually endorsing it, however.

Well, that's why I picked up this other course that teaches both Hiragana and Katakana. Fairly large workbook that presents me with many examples and practices. So I have no problem with:

A) Learning to read/write first.
B) Learning to speak first.
Or
C) Both at once - alteration.


:cool: But thanks for your input (everyone). I will probably learn to read/write first, then come back to my previous course with Romaji.

[Elizabeth]

Ok it was mentioned that I should cease learning the course that has Romaji in it. But I can't just simply let that go to waste, as I just bought it from Barnes and Noble. I did however save the receipt, but I don't think they'll just let me take it back for seemingly no reason.
I've seen the Is this the Random House Living Language coursebooks at Barnes & Noble. Is that what this is ? At least I think the later editions of that series do include kana material.

At any rate, it's going to be an uphill battle to understand/speak fluently and conversationally listening to tapes alone no matter how expertly designed they are sold as being. And the Living Language line of products was created as 'master phrasebooks' in my opinion. Not ever intended as a great pedological tool, but as a stepping stone for students planning on visiting and/or living in the country.

[Chaotic]

I've seen the Is this the Random House Living Language coursebooks at Barnes & Noble. Is that what this is ? At least I think the later editions of that series do include kana material.

At any rate, it's going to be an uphill battle to understand/speak fluently and conversationally listening to tapes alone no matter how expertly designed they are sold as being. And the Living Language line of products was created as 'master phrasebooks' in my opinion. Not ever intended as a great pedological tool, but as a stepping stone for students planning on visiting and/or living in the country.

It's an uphill battle to learn any language, right? Besides, I won't be learning it by myself forever. I'm going to be going to college in a year or so, so I will most likely pick up a course there.

Still, there's no reason why I couldn't study on my own until then, right? Also, with anything I've ever done, I've usually always taught myself or read from a book (I'd like to think of myself as a book learner as I may have mentioned before). Whether it be academic or athletic, and I'm not meaning to boast about that. I just never usually have a huge problem doing things alone. In fact, it's what I prefer.

When it comes to Japanese however, I will for sure look into getting in a class to master it (actually, I'm moving soon to California and I found out they have a top-notch school that will teach you foreign languages such as Chinese in 52 weeks. Sounds rough, but if you're serious about learning a language [like if you want to become a linguist or something like that] then that seems like the solid way to do it, eh).


EDIT: I checked through the Japanese Coursebook (Living Language) and I didn't see any Kana in there (there's 40 lessons). There is however a large amount of Romaji :p

[Terumoto]

You should definitely learn Hiragana and Katakana. You are making everything harder for yourself by not learning them, and they aren't very hard. There are a lot of sites on the internet that teach correct stroke order with animations and pronunciation with sound files. I can't stress enough how much learning them will help your Japanese.

Basically, you are trying to learn Japanese in English, and it really doesn't work well. Just learn the basic characters, and you can read and learn Japanese in Japanese.

I don't really have that much experience, but you are more or less me two years ago. I just started my first year at university, and thus my first year of formal Japanese study. I WISH that I had learned Hiragana and Katakana before I started, it would have made life a whole lot easier for me. Not only did I have to learn Kana, I also had to worry about vocabulary, grammar, oral communication and Kanji. I struggled with vocabulary, grammar and Kanji because it took me a while to become familiar with the Kana. They are a necessary foundation when it comes to learning Japanese, and everything else is built up from them.

[JimmySeal]

Which course is it? The Living Language Ultimate Japanese book & tape set is quite good. Worth the downpoint of being mostly romaji if you ask me. Though for my money, I've decided to learn languages without lesson books.

[Chaotic]

You should definitely learn Hiragana and Katakana. You are making everything harder for yourself by not learning them, and they aren't very hard. There are a lot of sites on the internet that teach correct stroke order with animations and pronunciation with sound files. I can't stress enough how much learning them will help your Japanese.
Basically, you are trying to learn Japanese in English, and it really doesn't work well. Just learn the basic characters, and you can read and learn Japanese in Japanese.
I don't really have that much experience, but you are more or less me two years ago. I just started my first year at university, and thus my first year of formal Japanese study. I WISH that I had learned Hiragana and Katakana before I started, it would have made life a whole lot easier for me. Not only did I have to learn Kana, I also had to worry about vocabulary, grammar, oral communication and Kanji. I struggled with vocabulary, grammar and Kanji because it took me a while to become familiar with the Kana. They are a necessary foundation when it comes to learning Japanese, and everything else is built up from them.

Got it...well, this textbook I picked up has 4 to 5 volumes. They look pretty promising, and I'm not worried about it (just read up the preface and introductory paragraphs to the textbook). Shouldn't be too difficult to get :p Although I will stay tuned on this forum for my many inevitable questions to come.


Which course is it? The Living Language Ultimate Japanese book & tape set is quite good. Worth the downpoint of being mostly romaji if you ask me. Though for my money, I've decided to learn languages without lesson books.

Well it doesn't mention any "Ultimate" words or phrases so I guess it's just a normal package.