itte iru

[TheMinion]

My book, Genki I, says that "itte iru" indicates a current state that results from a prior movement, and not movements that are currently in progress.
It lists as an example:

"chuugoku ni itte imasu."
and next to that it says:
"Somebody has gone to/is in China.
Not: Somebody is going to China."

but a few native japanese speakers have disagreed. One said that it could in fact be both "has gone" and "is going", whereas the other said that it could only be "is going".

You can probably see how i'm confused by this. Could someone please shed some light upon this?

(I am also on a computer that is incapable of displaying japanese characters at the moment, and I don't have the CD to install them, so please keep it to romaji if you have to use examples! Thanks!)

-Cameron

[82riceballs]

i'm not a native speaker, but i learned that it was only "is going", a present progressive form, i.e. -ing form.
I learned it here (http://www.timwerx.net/language/jpverbs/lesson58.htm) but i also read: here (http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/5701/1jp/jp-4te.html) that it could also mean "has done and is still doing", so maybe ur book is right, just kinda vague.

[Daniel89]

I'm not a native speaker either, but I have heard from plenty of sources that the -te iru form can at times also indicate an enduring state as a result of an action rather than just the present progressive we know in English. For instance, most of the time kekkon shiteiru (-te iru form of kekkon suru - to get married) is actually used to mean "I am married" rather than "I am in the chapel right now presently having the ceremony done".

Also keep in mind that most of the time in English when we say we are going somewhere, it doesn't really mean that we are on the way right now, riding the airplane as we speak, but more along the lines that we have made plans and intend to go there sometime in the future.

[Elizabeth]

My book, Genki I, says that "itte iru" indicates a current state that results from a prior movement, and not movements that are currently in progress.
It lists as an example:
"chuugoku ni itte imasu."
and next to that it says:
"Somebody has gone to/is in China.
Not: Somebody is going to China."
but a few native japanese speakers have disagreed. One said that it could in fact be both "has gone" and "is going", whereas the other said that it could only be "is going".
You can probably see how i'm confused by this. Could someone please shed some light upon this?
Only "is going" is an curious response, but anyway the -te iru form as a state resulting from an action in "momentary" or "change of state" verbs was gone through with a fine tooth comb in this thread :

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=344248

[TheMinion]

Thanks for all your replies, although I am still at a loss for a definite answer. I will read the thread that Elizabeth posted when I get home this weekend, and can use a pc capable of displaying japanese characters. Thanks much!

[nice gaijin]

Your difficulty in finding a definitive answer stems from the fact that Japanese is not English, and doesn't operate exactly the same way. Get used to ambivalent translations.

Personally, when I hear 行っています I think "has gone," because it roughly translates to "has left and is now in [China]," but obviously, context is a driving force here.

[Bucko]

I've only ever learnt this to mean "has gone", as it the person is currently in that place.

This might give you some clues:

http://www2.alc.co.jp/ejr/index.php?word_in=%8Ds%82%C1%82%C4%82%A2%82%DC%82% B7&word_in2=%82%A0%82%A2%82%A4%82%A6%82%A8&word_in3=PVawEWi72JXCKoa0Je

Although be careful because many of those itte imasu's aren't the iku verb. There's another verb with the same kanji that conjugates the same way - 'okonau' - which is a fancy word for "to do".

[TheMinion]

I've only ever learnt this to mean "has gone", as it the person is currently in that place.
This might give you some clues:
(url was here)
Although be careful because many of those itte imasu's aren't the iku verb. There's another verb with the same kanji that conjugates the same way - 'okonau' - which is a fancy word for "to do".
Ok, thanks! Hmm, that's sort of confusing. How do you know which it is supposed to be if it conjugates the same way and uses the same kanji? Context?

[Charles Barkley]

Ok, thanks! Hmm, that's sort of confusing. How do you know which it is supposed to be if it conjugates the same way and uses the same kanji? Context?

I wouldnt worry too much. You probably wont see okonau in a textbook for a long time. And its not really used in spoken Japanese, so you'll never have to worry about listening for it. You'll encounter it in newspapers/ads and the like, but it should be clear from context what the sentence is talking about.

[Elizabeth]

Okonau, like suru, is transitive which means it expresses a situation in which the subject acts on a direct object. The particle used after that object for this relationship is wo.　

Iku　is intransitive which means the subject doesn't act on an object but performs an action on its own. Such as going to China. Sentences like "Chugoku ni itte iru" obviously don't have a "wo" particle as you would see with okonau.

It's one way to tell them apart semantically. The easiest is to realize you probably won't be encountering okonau in the immediate future and take Charles' advice not to worry about it too much right now. I think only the "te" and "ta" (plain past) forms conjugate similarly anyhow....

[TheMinion]

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks!

[nekocat]

今母は買い物に行っています (Mother is going shopping now.)
母はもう買い物に行っています。 (Mother has already gone shopping.)

You can't determine the progressive usage of っている from the perfective usage. It could only be decided by the context or the adverbial phrases.

[Elizabeth]

今母は買い物に行っています (Mother is going shopping now.)
母はもう買い物に行っています。 (Mother has already gone shopping.)
You can't determine the progressive usage of っている from the perfective usage. It could only be decided by the context or the adverbial phrases.
It can also explain a future action of the self, or another known person that has clearly not yet left, as the subject.

２週間中国に行っています。I will be in China for two weeks.

It may be clearer with行ってかえります（きます、かえってきます） but in terms of grammar both endings are acceptable as far as I understand.


母は二時間買い物に行っています。 Mother will be shopping for two hours. ???

[shikyo]

I'm not really sure I get this...

In other words what genki says; that 行っている and 来ている indicate the current states that result from prior movements, not movements that are currently in progress - is wrong?

It also gives examples and says "You may want to be careful with what the following sentences mean:"

中国に行っています。
Somebody has gone to/is in China.
Not: She is going to China.

うちに来ています。
Somebody has come over to visit.
Not: Somebody is coming over.

[TheMinion]

今母は買い物に行っています (Mother is going shopping now.)
母はもう買い物に行っています。 (Mother has already gone shopping.)
You can't determine the progressive usage of っている from the perfective usage. It could only be decided by the context or the adverbial phrases.

Thank you so much, nekocat! That was the most helpful reply!

[Elizabeth]

今母は買い物に行っています (Mother is going shopping now.)
The word "going" is ambiguous in English. This could mean either :

1. "Mother is shopping now." (Without "going" this sounds most natural).
2. "Mother is about to leave to go shopping."


母はもう買い物に行っています。 (Mother has already gone shopping.)
Possible English interpretations:

1. "Mother has already shopped (but has not yet returned.)" OR "Mother has already gone shopping, (perhaps days ago, for the week) and returned."
2. "Mother has just left to go shopping and is expected to still be on the way."



You can't determine the progressive usage of っている from the perfective usage. It could only be decided by the context or the adverbial phrases.
Unless she is under continual surveillance、 all you can know with certainty in either language is that she's no longer where she was, has not yet returned and is assumed to be either on the way to the store, shopping, or done shopping. :)

でも、英語の現在完了形ではタイミングの使い方がちょっと変 わりやですね。 :blush:

[undrentide]

I'm not really sure I get this...

In other words what genki says; that 行っている and 来ている indicate the current states that result from prior movements, not movements that are currently in progress - is wrong?

It also gives examples and says "You may want to be careful with what the following sentences mean:"

中国に行っています。
Somebody has gone to/is in China.
Not: She is going to China.

うちに来ています。
Somebody has come over to visit.
Not: Somebody is coming over.

As far as 行く and 来る are concerned, 〜ている means "the current states that result from prior movements".

To state the movement is on-going, different expression is necessary for these verbs.
中国に行くところです。
うちに来る途中です。
for example.

[Elizabeth]

As far as 行く and 来る are concerned, ～ている means "the current states that result from prior movements".

To state the movement is on-going, different expression is necessary for these verbs.
中国に行くところです。
うちに来る途中です。
for example.
But that is only to avoid confusion in ordinary conversation, right ? In the case a speaker cannot have knowledge of whether the movement is ongoing or has concluded (whether the plane has landed or not) 中国に行っている I think is not incorrect. :relief:
　

[undrentide]

But that is only to avoid confusion in ordinary conversation, right ? In the case a speaker have knowledge of whether the movement is ongoing or has concluded (whether the plane has landed or not) 中国に行っている I think is not incorrect. :relief:
　

Well, I'm talking not based on any grammatical theory but just out of my feeling, so it's really hard to explain, but when I hear 〜に行っている, I can feel anything but the sense of completion.
Indeed it whether the person has reached the destination or not is not an issue, but the important thing is, the person has gone and (as the result), is not here any more....
I cannot sense any feeling of the person is in the process of going somewhere. Just he's gone.

Same about 来ている. Maybe even stronger.
When I hear （〜が）日本に来ている, I feel that the person has already come to Japan.
I cannot imagine that the person in still on the way...

The only exception I can think of is 行っている・来ている is used to describe the repeated action as a habit.
e.g.
彼は毎年日本に遊びに来ている。
私は毎日学校に行っている。

But again there's also a hint of completion, i.e. you cannot the above to talk about the future, at least the person has already come to Japan or been to school.


う〜ん、難しい・・・:relief:

[Buntaro]

Undrentide-san!

So, if you are on a train on your way to school (and you are having a conversation while the train is moving), you would say, "Ima, gakkou e ikimasu," right?

[Elizabeth]

Well, I'm talking not based on any grammatical theory but just out of my feeling, so it's really hard to explain, but when I hear ～に行っている, I can feel anything but the sense of completion.
Indeed it whether the person has reached the destination or not is not an issue, but the important thing is, the person has gone and (as the result), is not here any more....
I cannot sense any feeling of the person is in the process of going somewhere. Just he's gone.
英語も難しいね。

Has left for China が終了した時には、Has gone to China が開始する時点はないと思いますが　Has gone のほうが、いつでも、出発した後の一般的な言い方の感じがしますね。:relief:　　

There's no clear line in English between "Has left for China" and "has gone" but I think "has gone to" can be used loosely from the point at which the person has "taken off for" in the plane, ship or whatever. They are headed in that direction with no possibility of turning back.

"Gone to school" can be used in answer a person's whereabouts anytime after that person has left the house.

[undrentide]

Undrentide-san!

So, if you are on a train on your way to school (and you are having a conversation while the train is moving), you would say, "Ima, gakkou e ikimasu," right?

If I'm still waiting for the train, or am just about to leave home for school, then I might say
"korekara gakkou e ikimasu"
"imakara gakkou e ikimasu"
"gakkou e ikutokoro desu"

If I'm already on the train and heading for school, I would say
"gakkou e ikutokoro desu"
"gakkou ni iku tochuu desu"

but never, ever say
"gakkou e itteimasu"

[Elizabeth]

but never, ever say
"gakkou e itteimasu"
And someone else cannot say it about you either, in answer to the question "Where is undrentide-san?" :?

[undrentide]

And someone else cannot say it about you either, in answer to the question "Where is undrentide-san?" :?

Yes, someone else can use "kanojo wa gakkou ni itteiru" but it does not mean I'm on the way to school, but I've already left and is not with the person who is talking about me! ;-)

[nekocat]

but never, ever say
"gakkou e itteimasu"
I've hardly ever seen such an insightful discussion as the one between Elizabeth and undrentide!
"itteimasu" can be ambiguous ("completion" or "progressive"), so people must avoid using "itteimasu" when they want to clearly mean they are in the middle of doing it, not wanting to make it sound as if it were a completed action.

（携帯電話で、洋子は電車の中、ひろしは家）
ひろし：いま何してんの？
洋子：いま学校に行ってるところ。（行っているところ/行っている途中）。

In this sentence, 洋子　doesn't want ひろし to think that she has already gone/been to the school.

つとむ：卵はまだ来ていないの？
洋子：マリが取りに行っています。（取りに行ってるところ/行っている途中）。

If you hear this sentence, you more likely take it to mean "Mari is in the process of fetching the eggs.", than "Mari has already fetched the eggs. She's now back here." This is ambiguous, too. If you want to clearly say that Mari has already fetched the eggs, you should say マリはもう卵は取ってきました。/マリはもう卵を取ってきています。

[nekocat]

But that is only to avoid confusion in ordinary conversation, right ? In the case a speaker cannot have knowledge of whether the movement is ongoing or has concluded (whether the plane has landed or not) 中国に行っている I think is not incorrect. :relief:
　Yes, I support your opinion: to avoid confusion people came to prefer one usage to another.
It should be one of the most difficult parts of leaning Japanese. Your understanding of Japanese is indeed deep!

[cacawate]

A little internet Flash movie or something needs to be made about this, because I know that a lot of EFL people have trouble understanding this.

I think the train situation is perfect as well. You can have a person talking on the phone with one of their friends and telling them exactly what they are doing. You could pull from undrentide's examples verbatim and that would be good enough.

I'm going to see if I can round up some people that may be interested in doing this. This needs to be done. :/

[Elizabeth]

I've hardly ever seen such an insightful discussion as the one between Elizabeth and undrentide!
"itteimasu" can be ambiguous ("completion" or "progressive"), so people must avoid using "itteimasu" when they want to clearly mean they are in the middle of doing it, not wanting to make it sound as if it were a completed action.
（携帯電話で、洋子は電車の中、ひろしは家）
ひろし：いま何してんの？
洋子：いま学校に行ってるところ。（行っているところ/行っている途中）。
In this sentence, 洋子　doesn't want ひろし to think that she has already gone/been to the school.
Perhaps you would say 行ってるところ emphasizes being in the middle （移動中であれば）　and 行くところ could be just starting out or also on the way....Just wondering, though, isn't 行くところ a much more common way of expressing the act of going as it is still underway ?

[Glenn]

I was under the impression that it meant you were about to go. Like someone calls your house phone, and they ask what you're doing, and you say 買い物に行くところだ（った）.

[Elizabeth]

I was under the impression that it meant you were about to go. Like someone calls your house phone, and they ask what you're doing, and you say 買い物に行くところだ（った）.
ちょうど買い物に出かけようとしている(ところ）　or でかけるところ etc are both fine before starting out, but like commuting to or from on the train and talking to people around you 行く・かえるところ I think are also more natural than 行っているところ、帰っているところ。

Maybe the progressive + ところ works on a cell phone or whatever to a partner, though, that doesn't know your location and present situation...?? :?

[undrentide]

ちょうど買い物に出かけようとしている(出かけようというところ？）　or でかけるところ are both fine before starting out, but like commuting to or from on the train and talking to people around you 行く・かえるところ I think are also more natural than 行っているところ、帰っているところ。

Maybe the progressive + ところ works on a cell phone or whatever to a partner, though, that doesn't know your location and present situation...?? :?

行くところ could mean either about to go somewhere (has not left yet) or is going to somewhere (already on the way).
It might sound vague, but what is common for both meaning is the action of "going" has not completed yet.

Personally I never use 行っている to express I myself am on the way, as it sounds very unnatural and strange. But it could be just me who feels that way...
:relief:

When I want to express that I'm on the way, I would say
～に行く途中なの
while I have not started yet but am about to leave for somewhere, I would say
今（これから）～に行くところ
～に行こうとしてたところ

[Supervin]

行くところ could mean either about to go somewhere (has not left yet) or is going to somewhere (already on the way).
...
When I want to express that I'm on the way, I would say
～に行く途中なの
while I have not started yet but am about to leave for somewhere, I would say
今（これから）～に行くところ
～に行こうとしてたところ
So then, as I see it ところ is used to express that you're just about to do something.

Are there other alternatives apart from 途中 to express being in the midst of doing something?

[Elizabeth]

So then, as I see it ところ is used to express that you're just about to do something.
Are there other alternatives apart from 途中 to express being in the midst of doing something?
She said it already. Bottom of the Page 1 : :)

If I'm already on the train and heading for school, I would say
"gakkou e ikutokoro desu"
"gakkou ni iku tochuu desu"

[Supervin]

She said it already. Bottom of the Page 1 : :)
If I'm already on the train and heading for school, I would say
"gakkou e ikutokoro desu"
"gakkou ni iku tochuu desu"
Ah, cheers.

Those seem to be the common ones. Are there any more ways?

[Elizabeth]

Ah, cheers.
Those seem to be the common ones. Are there any more ways?
You mean with 行く？ Depending on the noun and verb, there are other ways certainly. In the middle of an activity　＝ noun (often the type attached to suru) + ～中、の最中、; In the middle of investigating this problem = この問題を調べているところです。。。

To take an example that was already brought up, though, the train is going to stop and has already started decelerating :

電車が止まる

The train is in the middle of stopping or about to stop, (from my dictionary but not used in everyday language...) :

電車が止まりかけている
電車が止まりつつある
電車が止まろうとしている（ところ？）

電車が止まるところ（？）

[tanhql]

can you say 電車が止まって来た?

i think most of this ambiguity comes from the progressive intransitive verbs.

[undrentide]

can you say 電車が止まって来た?

i think most of this ambiguity comes from the progressive intransitive verbs.

Since 止まる is not a progressive action (it can either moving or stop), 止まってきた does not sound right.

All the good examples Elizabeth listed up are describing that the train is about to stop (but has not stopped yet).

[nekocat]

母はもう買い物に行っています。 (Mother has already gone shopping.)

Possible English interpretations:

1. "Mother has already shopped (but has not yet returned.)" OR "Mother has already gone shopping, (perhaps days ago, for the week) and returned."
2. "Mother has just left to go shopping and is expected to still be on the way."
What a coincidence! Japanese, too, allows for exactly the same two interpretations. 言語って共通なところも多いのね。:cool:

[nekocat]

If I'm still waiting for the train, or am just about to leave home for school, then I might say
"korekara gakkou e ikimasu"
"imakara gakkou e ikimasu"
"gakkou e ikutokoro desu"

If I'm already on the train and heading for school, I would say
"gakkou e ikutokoro desu"
"gakkou ni iku tochuu desu"

but never, ever say
"gakkou e itteimasu"
Still we could say it for 3rd person.
彼女は卵をとりにいっています。

[undrentide]

Still we could say it for 3rd person.
彼女は卵をとりにいっています。

Yes, I do agree with that.
Maybe I was not clear enough in each posts I made here, but I've been talking about specifically when refering it to myself.
:relief:

[Elizabeth]

What a coincidence! Japanese, too, allows for exactly the same two interpretations. 言語って共通なところも多いのね。:cool:
そうですね。言語間の類似は相違より顕著ですね。

But I still have a lot of problems in Japanese speaking of the future from a point of view in the past and specifically with a pattern like "would have (gone)" (仮定法過去形）which is why I'm including it in this thread. I'm not really good at grammar terms either but I checked the dictionary and think it's the subjunctive past in English.



That said, here though are my best guesses for two which I hope are still halfway understandable. :cool:

彼らの忠告がなかったら、私は行っていただろう。(行っていたでしょう？)

If it weren't for your advice, I would have gone.


あんなにつまらない旅行になると分かっていたら、行かなかっただろう。

If I had known the trip would be so boring, I wouldn't have gone.

Not 行かなくっていたらだろう？ :?

[nekocat]

You're Japanese sentences are natural Liz,

だろう　and でしょう are the same, different just in the politeness level. Both are ["would have -p.p." and copula].

彼らの: their (I'm sure it's just you being careless)

行かなくっていたらだろう: wrong. イ音便化します。
→行かないでいたら

[nekocat]

行くところ could mean either about to go somewhere (has not left yet) or is going to somewhere (already on the way).
It might sound vague, but what is common for both meaning is the action of "going" has not completed yet.Good analysis! That would be because the verb 行く　includes both aspects: one in which 行く is similar in meaning to that of 着く (to reach). One in which 行く is the action of going itself. The former is a perfective verb, whearas the latter is a non-perfective verb (just like Slavic languages). Some types of Japanese verbs comprise both these aspects in one verb.

Personally I never use 行っている to express I myself am on the way, as it sounds very unnatural and strange. But it could be just me who feels that way...
:relief:Wow I disagree on this point. It's very natural to me, though I'd dop "い" and say 行ってる。

When I want to express that I'm on the way, I would say
～に行く途中なの
while I have not started yet but am about to leave for somewhere, I would say
今（これから）～に行くところ
～に行こうとしてたところ

[Elizabeth]

You're Japanese sentences are natural Liz,

だろう　and でしょう are the same, different just in the politeness level. Both are ["would have -p.p." and copula].
I see. After encountering だろう (ろうに。。)　used with "if-clauses" so overwhelmingly, even in dictionary examples intermixed with polite sentences, I just thought there might be something else going on.


彼らの: their (I'm sure it's just you being careless)

行かなくっていたらだろう: wrong. イ音便化します。
→行かないでいたら
Just being sleepy is more like it. Same with 行かなくっていたらだろう。What I was trying to ask was 行かなくっていただろう。 This doesn't sound correct though in cases where the action did actually take place (did go without knowing it would end up so boring).

Thanks again for the help ! :-)

[Elizabeth]

Wow I disagree on this point. It's very natural to me, though I'd dop "い" and say 行ってる。
I want to make sure I understand. You're saying if you're on the way to school you would say 「私は、学校に行ってる」 ?

Of course the grammar is no problem, I always thought it was the meaning that changes, though. So it would end up in English that you're 「私は、学生です」。 In other words, "attending school" or "going to school" habitually (as an everyday action)....Am I wrong in that ? :relief:

[nekocat]

I want to make sure I understand. You're saying if you're on the way to school you would say 「私は、学校に行ってる」 ?
Yes, that's right.

Of course the grammar is no problem, I always thought it was the meaning that changes, though. So it would end up in English that you're 「私は、学生です」。 In other words, "attending school" or "going to school" habitually (as an everyday action)....Am I wrong in that ? :relief:
All of the above. The meanings depend on the situation.

...行かなくっていただろう。
This is again incorrect.　You should say,

...行かないでいただろう。

[undrentide]

I want to make sure I understand. You're saying if you're on the way to school you would say 「私は、学校に行ってる」 ?

Yes, that's right.

Ah, this is the point I cannot agree with nekocat san...

Normally I do use ～ている to describe something ongoing/in process, but 行く and 来る are two exceptions.

If I say 私は学校に行っている, it means either
- repeated action (e.g. 私は毎週学校に行っています。）
- the result of the action (e.g. 私は午前中は学校に行っています。＝　だから家にはいません。）

But I would never say
私は学校に行っています
when I'm on the way to schoo and someone called me on the mobile and ask me where I'm now/what I'm doing at the right moment.
If I do, it sounds so weired to me because it sounds I've gone to school and not here yet I am here talking... Somehow with 行っている／来ている, I cannot really feel the action of 行く／来る is in progress*. It is very different from other verbs.

I asked a few friends of mine and they said they wouldn't use 行っている （nor 行ってる） when they're on the way to somewhere.

I'm wondering if there's regional difference in this usage...

Note: it is totally different story when it is combined with adjective, not simple actions of "to go" or "to come".

[nekocat]

Ah, this is the point I cannot agree with nekocat san...
Normally I do use ～ている to describe something ongoing/in process, but 行く and 来る are two exceptions.
If I say 私は学校に行っている, it means either
- repeated action (e.g. 私は毎週学校に行っています。）
- the result of the action (e.g. 私は午前中は学校に行っています。＝　だから家にはいません。）
But I would never say
私は学校に行っています
when I'm on the way to schoo and someone called me on the mobile and ask me where I'm now/what I'm doing at the right moment.
If I do, it sounds so weired to me because it sounds I've gone to school and not here yet I am here talking... Somehow with 行っている／来ている, I cannot really feel the action of 行く／来る is in progress*. It is very different from other verbs.
I asked a few friends of mine and they said they wouldn't use 行っている （nor 行ってる） when they're on the way to somewhere.
I'm wondering if there's regional difference in this usage...

Could you tell me if the following 行ってる sounds wrong to you?
The idea behind 行く・来る is the same with the English distinction of "go/come." When the daughter says "今行ってる" the point of reference is at her mother. She is going away from the point, thus 行く.
母：（携帯電話で）今何してるの！学校行ったの？
娘：今行ってる！いちいち電話かけてこないで！
Note: it is totally different story when it is combined with adjective, not simple actions of "to go" or "to come".
Didn't you want to say "...when it's combined with 本動詞", not adjective?

[Elizabeth]

Could you tell me if the following 行ってる sounds wrong to you?
The idea behind 行く・来る is the same with the English distinction of "go/come." When the daughter says "今行ってる" the point of reference is at her mother. She is going away from the point, thus 行く.
母：（携帯電話で）今何してるの！学校行ったの？
娘：今行ってる！いちいち電話かけてこないで！
全然意味のないよ。。:p


This is again incorrect.　You should say,

...行かないでいただろう。

ありがとうございます。　

行かなかっただろう、行かないでいただろうどちらも正 しい日本語で、意味も同じですね。
でも、言い方としては、どちらが日常、普通につかわれ るかな。。。

[nekocat]

全然意味のないよ。。:pどういう意味？:relief:
ありがとうございます。　
行かなかっただろう、行かないでいただろうどちらも正 しい日本語で、意味も同じですね。
でも、言い方としては、どちらが日常、普通につかわれ るかな。。。
行かなかった: simple past
行かないでいた: remain in the state of "not going."　（行かない状態のままいた）

文法的に違うよ。

[undrentide]

Could you tell me if the following 行ってる sounds wrong to you?
The idea behind 行く・来る is the same with the English distinction of "go/come." When the daughter says "今行ってる" the point of reference is at her mother. She is going away from the point, thus 行く.母：（携帯電話で）今何してるの！学校行ったの� H
娘：今行ってる！いちいち電話かけてこないで！

It is not the idea of the word 行く・来る alone, but the combination of these words plus いる.
My feeling is that the meaning of いる (to stay) works much stronger when it is combinied with 行く・来る.
To me, 今行ってる in the above example does sound wrong. I can guess what this girl is trying to say, but I cannot help feeling something is wrong...
（違和感）

I've asked some questions to my colleagues (you know, I was getting less confident about my feeling... after all it could only my feeling and and there's nothing to back it up :relief:;

When you hear （〜に）行っている, what could it mean?
(a) when the subject is 鈴木さん
(b) when the subject is　私

1. generic statement of habit, repeated action, like
学校に行っている（＝通っている）
2. present continuous
〜に行く途中
3. present perfect (?)
〜に行ってしまってここにはいない。（すでに出かけて いる。）　


(a)
1. OK.
2. This varies depending on the person I asked, some says this sounds OK, others says it does not sound right, one person elaborated that it is closed to 3, whether Suzuki san has reached the destination or not yet is not an issue, just Suzuki san has left.
3. OK.

(b)
1. OK.
2. Most says it is impossible - only one person says that she can guess what it is meant to be, though the common comments I got from them all is "I would not use it myself when saying I'm on the way" and alternatively they suggested 行く途中 instead of 行っている.
3. NG. It's impossible unless one is talking about the future event. e.g.
来週の木曜日には中国に行っている（ここにはいない） 。

I don't know how general/common such feeling like the above about 行っている・来ている, though...

Didn't you want to say "...when it's combined with 本動詞", not adjective?

Maybe... (sorry I don't know what 本動詞 means. "Adjective" was a mistake. I meant to say 〜になっていく・くる but getting/becoming + adjective was in my head... :relief: Thank you anyway, for pointing it out!
:cool:

[FrustratedDave]

Good analysis! That would be because the verb 行く　includes both aspects: one in which 行く is similar in meaning to that of 着く (to reach). One in which 行く is the action of going itself. The former is a perfective verb, whearas the latter is a non-perfective verb (just like Slavic languages). Some types of Japanese verbs comprise both these aspects in one verb. Wow I disagree on this point. It's very natural to me, though I'd dop "い" and say 行ってる。
Are you from the kansai region? B/c I would do the same, but I can't speak 標準語 very well at all.:(

[Elizabeth]

行かなかった: simple past
行かないでいた: remain in the state of "not going."　（行かない状態のままいた）
文法的に違うよ。
意味には違いがないと思うけど、「文法」に差があるよ うですね。
日本語には、英語にない、表現やなかなか伝えにくいニ ュアンスがたくさんありますね。
それで、その２つの構文の間に意味の相違もないように 思ったら、あまりそれを気にしないです。
:relief:　

行かなかったも行かないでいたも　どちらも、would not have gone　といった感じですが、
行かなかったのほうが普通につかわれるでしょうね。　 　


手伝ってくれてどうもありがとう！:-)

[Elizabeth]

Are you from the kansai region? B/c I would do the same, but I can't speak 標準語 very well at all.:(
I don't get this whole dialect thing because people I know from Osaka at least tell me 大阪弁 is rarely used in public life anymore. It is something that happens almost entirely on the "street" level and between very close friends....Well, except for those comedians and the yakuza guys, I'm not touching that one for now....:relief:

[FrustratedDave]

I don't get this whole dialect thing because people I know from Osaka at least tell me 大阪弁 is rarely used in public life anymore. It is something that happens almost entirely on the "street" level and between very close friends....Well, except for those comedians and the yakuza guys, I'm not touching that one for now....:relief:
I don't know who your friends are, but Osaka ben is very real and very much used at many levels.

[Elizabeth]

I don't know who your friends are, but Osaka ben is very real and very much used at many levels.
I think what they meant were that general level public activities (shopping, asking directions, eating out, transportation etc) not only could be, but for them routinely are, conducted without problem in normal (行ってるところ） Japanese.


No one is denying of course there are still back pockets you can hear the very deep, old style dialects. All and all, it's very unlikely to be nearly as widespead as 2-3 generations ago, but then again they haven't lived in the place full time for 20 years either...So I suppose how the strength of it appears is ultimately a matter of perspective, judging from the past forward, plus crucially one's comfort level with 標準語.

[FrustratedDave]

I think what they meant were that general level public activities (shopping, asking directions, eating out, transportation etc) not only could be, but for them routinely are, conducted without problem in normal (行ってるところ） Japanese.
No one is denying of course there are still back pockets you can hear the very deep, old style dialects. All and all, it's very unlikely to be nearly as widespead as 2-3 generations ago, but then again they haven't lived in the place full time for 20 years either...So I suppose how the strength of it appears is ultimately a matter of perspective, judging from the past forward, plus crucially one's comfort level with 標準語.
Sorry, I just re-read my last post and it seemed a little too dirrect, sorry. :wave:

My work dealing with the elderly may have a bit to do with the fact that I feel Osaka ben is still very ,very strong. However the younger generation still do use that deep slang in my experience. I don't know if you are judging if it used by the way they speak to you or from what they are telling you? One other thing, where are they from now and originaly?

Sorry to derail.

[nekocat]

I'll write more detailed replies tomorrow, so let me keep it brief today.

To me, 今行ってる in the above example does sound wrong. I can guess what this girl is trying to say, but I cannot help feeling something is wrong...
（違和感）

As I have written somewhere, 行く　in Japanese have two meanings (aspects, to be precise).

行く to go and reach
行く to go and be going

In your mind the former is more dominant.

[Elizabeth]

I'll write more detailed replies tomorrow, so let me keep it brief today.
As I have written somewhere, 行く　in Japanese have two meanings (aspects, to be precise).
行く to go and reach
行く to go and be going
In your mind the former is more dominant.
It isn't a question of individual mind or undrentide-san's personal interpretation.

The only ambiguity possible to standard Japanese in the conjugations offered above is how strongly 行ってる implies "has arrived" or simply "is no longer here" from the perspective of a third party. Of course unless that person has reported their whereabouts or has a camera pointed on them it can ultimately only be conjecture in any case. Whether the feeling is that they are already at school or not is basically irrelevant to the facts of the situation and the reality of their present location.


とにかく、上の状況では、娘は学校に行っている途中か、学校に到着している(行っている）かをはっきり確か めることができませんね。