Japanese computers. [Archive]

GaijinPunch

Jul 18, 2007, 09:23

All Japanese computers (Windows, Apple, Linux, etc.) can handle all of the Japanese characters, or any Asian ones for that matter. Some are betters than others though.

The keyboards generally have roman characters on them, but quite often the punctuation marks are in different places. The not-so-often used apostrophe, is shift+7, for example. Open quotation mark is shift+2. This can be a hassle. The trick is to tell the system you have a keyboard mapped to that of your home country. So, despite what the keys say (which I never look at anyway) they are mapped "correctly". If you have friends from another foreign country over that look at the keys, they will most likely give up in frustration some few minutes into attempting to use your makeshift setup.

The only operating system that I know of that is multi-lingual friendly is Linux. System languages of Gnome & KDE both should be configurable by user. For Windows, you would have to have two separate Windows installs (a dual boot setup) if you wanted to enjoy a truly multi-lingual system.

Ewok85

Jul 18, 2007, 10:52

The only operating system that I know of that is multi-lingual friendly is Linux. System languages of Gnome & KDE both should be configurable by user. For Windows, you would have to have two separate Windows installs (a dual boot setup) if you wanted to enjoy a truly multi-lingual system.

A single Windows install can me completely multilingual, but until recently was only available to companies who buy windows in bulk. You can set Windows (and Office) to be completely English, Japanese or whatever language you have licences for from within the control panel, and map it to users. All of the computers in the Tokyo branch of my company are like this with users able to have their interfaces completely in their native language.

The Ultimate version of Vista has this same multilingual ability.

GaijinPunch

Jul 18, 2007, 18:15

to be completely English, Japanese or whatever language you have licences for from within the control panel,

Okay... should've said with one license. Still a ripoff. You're paying for an entire OS when you're just using the language set. And Microsoft wonders why people either steal their software or use Linux.

The Ultimate version of Vista has this same multilingual ability.

Then you've got a plethora of other issues though.

Ewok85

Jul 18, 2007, 20:42

Okay... should've said with one license. Still a ripoff. You're paying for an entire OS when you're just using the language set. And Microsoft wonders why people either steal their software or use Linux.

Sorry, the MUI is usually distributed as a set of 4 CD's, with each CD having a "region". Japanese is on the same CD as languages such as Chinese, Thai, Korean, etc, and you can in theory with one licence to the MUI (not individual languages) and install every language possible. Would mess with my head though :P

But this is only available to corporate customers who buy volume licences, not home users.

Then you've got a plethora of other issues though.

Vista related issues? Sure, but so did XP when it came out. Give it time, Vista will have its chance to shine in a year or two.

Glenski

Jul 19, 2007, 06:26

For language issues, many people tout the Macintosh over the lowly PC. To each his own. You get used to a keyboard with its minor idiosyncrasies. Bring your own computer if you like (laptop).

GaijinPunch

Jul 19, 2007, 09:18

Vista related issues? Sure, but so did XP when it came out. Give it time, Vista will have its chance to shine in a year or two.

At it's base, it's Windows. It's not like those issues ever really go away. They just disappear for a while.

But this is only available to corporate customers

Nice that the feature is there (sort of) but seems to illustrate the lack of configuration options found in Windows.

Mechanical_Pencil

Jul 22, 2007, 22:57

Interesting thread...

I own a Mac laptop for my personal computer and I found that you can toggle the languages of the operating system with a simple click (Japanese gives you the full works-kana, kanji, romaji...very impressive...I bought this computer before I left the States so it still has an American layout, but functions much like a Japanese computer.

I also have a Japanese laptop for work and found that it is still pretty much the same, but as GaijinPunch said, a very very different keyboard layout...I can't tell you how many times it left me scratching my head looking for a key (or how to undo something I just did) instead of working...

So, to answer the question: Buy a Mac (once you go Mac, you never go back). I have been very happy with mine-it's smaller in size, fast, reliable and has many options. If Mac's aren't your cup of tea, it certainly wouldn't hurt to buy a Japanese laptop, but you can also just install Japanese windows on your laptop/PC.

Interesting thread...
I own a Mac laptop for my personal computer and I found that you can toggle the languages of the operating system with a simple click (Japanese gives you the full works-kana, kanji, romaji...very impressive...I bought this computer before I left the States so it still has an American layout, but functions much like a Japanese computer.
I also have a Japanese laptop for work and found that it is still pretty much the same, but as GaijinPunch said, it has a very very different keyboard layout...I can't tell you how many times it left me scratching my head looking for a key (or how to undo something I just did) instead of working...
So, to answer the question: Buy a Mac (once you go Mac, you never go back:p). I have been very happy with mine-it's smaller in size, fast, reliable and has many options. If Mac's aren't your cup of tea, it certainly wouldn't hurt to buy a Japanese laptop, but you can also just install Japanese windows on your laptop/PC.

Ewok85

Jul 22, 2007, 23:59

Nice that the feature is there (sort of) but seems to illustrate the lack of configuration options found in Windows.

Alot of work goes into making Windows localised - giving it to normal users would mean that any one copy of Windows would have equal functionality in any language. Thats bad for a number of reasons - you would need at least 6 CD's or several DVD's meaning more cost, more difficulty, and its a licencing hell.

You can't go saying Apple is any better because they do not allow their OS to work on such a wide range of hardware as MS do. You cannot say that any particular flavor of Linux is any better because I have not seen one that has decent multilingual capabilities. While we all say we hate them, MS has a decent product.

At it's base, it's Windows. It's not like those issues ever really go away. They just disappear for a while.

What issues would these be? Could it be the exact same issues that any OS on the market has but since they don't hold anywhere near the same market share are generally ignored?

There is a good reason that almost every large company on this planet uses Windows for their desktops, and Unix for their servers.

GaijinPunch

Jul 23, 2007, 12:02

Alot of work goes into making Windows localised - giving it to normal users would mean that any one copy of Windows would have equal functionality in any language. Thats bad for a number of reasons - you would need at least 6 CD's or several DVD's meaning more cost, more difficulty, and its a licencing hell.

You only need 6 CDs b/c it's programmed that way. An ideal multi-lingual setup would only require extra space for the text of each language... small, indeed. You could probably fit every other language Windows comes in on another DVD. It is developed around a unilingual base, and that is the problem.

You cannot say that any particular flavor of Linux is any better because I have not seen one that has decent multilingual capabilities. While we all say we hate them, MS has a decent product.

To that I can only answer you have not looked hard enough. Redhat 6 (this is like 4 years ago) out of the box w/ KDE (and I presume Gnome) was multilingual. That is a bit misleading, as w/ Linux it is not the operating system itself, but the window manager. KDE and I'm 99% sure Gnome are completely multilingual (you can choose your system language depending on your login manager). Redhat just saw the use in putting this in the default install. For other distros, you might have to do some tweaking on your own.

What issues would these be? Could it be the exact same issues that any OS on the market has but since they don't hold anywhere near the same market share are generally ignored?

I would say no. Surely nobody is targeted nearly as much as Microsoft, but they are famous for many things: sacrificing security & stability for features is at the top of the list. I don't use Macs, so can't comment, but the open-sourced community for such issues is many fold better.

maushan3

Jul 23, 2007, 12:09

Ewok85

Jul 23, 2007, 22:18

You only need 6 CDs b/c it's programmed that way. An ideal multi-lingual setup would only require extra space for the text of each language... small, indeed. You could probably fit every other language Windows comes in on another DVD. It is developed around a unilingual base, and that is the problem.

So manufacturing costs go up 6-fold, and you have to consider packaging too. Weight might also be importany

To that I can only answer you have not looked hard enough. Redhat 6 (this is like 4 years ago) out of the box w/ KDE (and I presume Gnome) was multilingual. That is a bit misleading, as w/ Linux it is not the operating system itself, but the window manager. KDE and I'm 99% sure Gnome are completely multilingual (you can choose your system language depending on your login manager). Redhat just saw the use in putting this in the default install. For other distros, you might have to do some tweaking on your own.

That is very misleading. Just because a window manager has ability to display certain languages does not mean it is compatible. I gave up on using Japanese as the input methoder was a complete mess.

I would say no. Surely nobody is targeted nearly as much as Microsoft, but they are famous for many things: sacrificing security & stability for features is at the top of the list. I don't use Macs, so can't comment, but the open-sourced community for such issues is many fold better.

Its well documented that while Windows has its flaws, and the only reason that the holes aren't poked in other OS' is because they don't have the coverage to make it worth trying.

GaijinPunch

Jul 24, 2007, 08:11

So manufacturing costs go up 6-fold, and you have to consider packaging too. Weight might also be important

That's my point. The costs go up 6-fold (that's about $.10 to $.60 in this case) b/c of poor design. A smart design is to have the langauge modular... at worst selectable at install.

That is very misleading. Just because a window manager has ability to display certain languages does not mean it is compatible.

Not in that sense. The system/kernel only handle data. The programs are what allow you to manipulate it and store it. While a very rudamentary approach, that's generally what's going on. The difference is that Windows IS a GUI, for the most part anyway. Very difficult to separate the front end from the back. With Linux, X runs on top of the system. You would rarely, if ever, put X on a server, b/c you most likely won't need it. So in this case, only the Window Manager has to be multi-lingual compatible, as that's the user's interface. You can of course have a non-X machine which is fully capable of handling double-byte character (my xterm runs in utf8) but to me it is not necessary in the least.

I gave up on using Japanese as the input methoder was a complete mess.

Anthy + SKIM is much better than the old IME. I don't quite like it as much as Microsoft's, but it's a close race. The one thing that's definitely better on Windows for the Japanese-conscious person is the J version of Bookshelf. Kiten is the only thing I can think of on Linux and it lacks as a dictionary.

Its well documented that while Windows has its flaws, and the only reason that the holes aren't poked in other OS' is because they don't have the coverage to make it worth trying.

I was pointing out the way they are handled (or in many cases, ignored & denied). I'll never forget that interview w/ Gates where he said 90% of Windows issues were user errors.

ullvarg

Jul 26, 2007, 10:40

@Ewok85 the only reason windows is so expensive and they wont release it multilingual is that MS is profiteering bastards, join the revolution and try out Ubuntu or suse, open a graffical tool and chose witch language your system should have or select several, so one user use Japanese (my girlfriend) and my login is English with Japanese, Swedish, danish and Norwegians support.
@GaijinPunch For Japanese input uim+anthy works much better than skim/scim, its more of the IME fashion and it doesn't run as a server so its not as memory hogging, but a bit more configuration to begin with though =)
As for something to replace J bookshelf, try out stardict and gjiten, gjiten have gnome dependencies though so you need some extra library's, but its worth it

ET_Fukuoka

Jul 26, 2007, 11:19

Mac's switch to different languages Pretty Nicely (I am talking about the whole OS, not just text entry). PC's don't do this very nicely. IMHO. I would get one of each. One of the supercheap PC's at the DOS-V shops with Japanese windows installed and a MacBook or something like that. ;-)

Or just get a Mac and run as many versions of Windows you like with Parallels!

mr.sumo.snr

Jul 26, 2007, 18:29

Converting English Windows XP Professional to any one of about 40 different languages has been relatively straightforward for the last five/six years. Not really sure what all this fuss is about.

The Multi User Interface (MUI) install files are easy to track down.

Yes, other OS may be more multi-language friendly, but I don't really care about those systems because Windows does everything I want of it - and more.

--

Ewok85

Jul 26, 2007, 22:42

@Ewok85 the only reason windows is so expensive and they wont release it multilingual is that MS is profiteering bastards, join the revolution and try out Ubuntu or suse, open a graffical tool and chose witch language your system should have or select several, so one user use Japanese (my girlfriend) and my login is English with Japanese, Swedish, danish and Norwegians support.

I've used Ubuntu (see http://www.leonjp.com/), Suse, Redhat, Mandrake, etc etc, and none of them are anywhere close to Windows.

I don't see what the big deal about Microsoft trying to make money from their products as being bad - as you said, there are free options available.

Ewok85

Jul 26, 2007, 22:49

The Multi User Interface (MUI) install files are easy to track down.
If you want to talk about illegally obtaining it - yes, I'm sure its easy enough...

kala83

Jul 31, 2007, 02:07

ET_Fukuoka

Jul 31, 2007, 03:13

There are typing figthing games that are pretty cool if that's what you are looking for. The faster you can type the less you get your butt kicked.

GaijinPunch

Jul 31, 2007, 13:37

@GaijinPunch For Japanese input uim+anthy works much better than skim/scim, its more of the IME fashion and it doesn't run as a server so its not as memory hogging,

I believe that's what I'm using. I have the following installed:
scim-uim, uim, anthy, scim-anthy, and skim-scim-anthy.
I followed this (http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-263174-highlight-skim.html) guide. The only problem I have (which I just realized) is that KDE applications can only handle so much kana before they bring the application to a grinding hault. GTK are fine. I use 4-5 tabs in a GAIM window daily for work, with no problem. In Skype, I got about 3 minutes into a conversation and had to stop. Gotta look into that, as I use Kate to do some occasional text editing.

As for something to replace J bookshelf, try out stardict and gjiten, gjiten have gnome dependencies though so you need some extra library's, but its worth it

I will check into these. Thanks.

Suse, Redhat, Mandrake, etc etc, and none of them are anywhere close to Windows.

In what way? I would rate Office as better than Open Office, and of course playing online poker isn't going to happen on Linux (natively). From a support perspective (which is what I believe you do) I can't imagine why people don't go on a rampage. Remote support of Windows generally consists of two methods:
1: Phone support (no thanks)
2: VNC or some other painfully slow method

That's not even touching on the stability issue. We have an old Redhat server about to hit uptime day #1000.

mr.sumo.snr

Aug 3, 2007, 04:03

I'm really glad someone made a post about this...cuz I kind of had a Japanese computer related question myself.
When I do move to Japan for my job, I would like to get a Japanese Computer just so that I can use something that will be able to work with Characters a little easier. lol and probably by that time I will want to look at getting a new computer anyway. But I was wondering do the Japanese have any typing programs that teach you how to type with Japanese characters on your computer?
What I am referring to is the basic typing knowledge like home keys and shift combinations that help you type with the characters. I am fairly sure they have to do stuff like this. Since there are soo many characters, I would figure there would have to be certain techniques to type the correct way.
Sorry if this seems like an odd or stupid question just was curious for future reference.

Yeah, erm, everyone I know types Japanese using Romaji input. It's very simple. Very few Japanese computer users bother with the kana keyboard.

There's absolutely no reason for you bother with a Japanese-language computer unless you'll be working in an office using Japanese software on Japanese-only PCs.

It's a piece of cake to take any Japanese computer, install English Windows XP, use the existing Japanese Windows drivers to correctly configure the machine, strip the Japanese installation (in fact save it to DVD for potential future re-installation). I've been doing this for years.

--

GaijinPunch

Aug 3, 2007, 08:23

Note: Laptops can be tricky at times. Often the drivers are not found in an opposing languages Windows install, and you have to install them manually. That's not hard, but finding them sometimes can be.

mr.sumo.snr

Aug 3, 2007, 14:28

I found a fairly foolproof method for Sony, Toshiba, Fujitsu and NEC laptops (and indeed desktops sometimes). The important thing is to keep or have available for re-installation the full Japanese system. In most cases these Japanese companies provide system recovery disks. Sometimes they can be accessed to extract necessary drivers - sometimes they can't and a full system re-install is required.

Since I make a small living out of doing these English re-installs I'm not going to go into too much detail (though I will if anyone PMs me). But anyway I must be up to about 50 successful Sony installations, same for Toshiba. Double digits for NEC and Fujitsu. DELL of course is the dream ticket. Probably knocking on about 500 English installations because everything you need is at the DELL home page.

--

ET_Fukuoka

Aug 3, 2007, 14:59

I think I have converted about 100 PC's myself. It's not rocket science!! I still say get a Mac! ;-)

kala83

Aug 3, 2007, 15:54

Yeah, erm, everyone I know types Japanese using Romaji input. It's very simple. Very few Japanese computer users bother with the kana keyboard.
There's absolutely no reason for you bother with a Japanese-language computer unless you'll be working in an office using Japanese software on Japanese-only PCs.
It's a piece of cake to take any Japanese computer, install English Windows XP, use the existing Japanese Windows drivers to correctly configure the machine, strip the Japanese installation (in fact save it to DVD for potential future re-installation). I've been doing this for years.
--
Actually I was kind of wondering that myself with my current lap top...I'd like to be able to type in Japanese a little more easily on my lap top from home so that I can answer emails from friends, and post in online Japanese communities such as mixi. But I'm not sure just what all I would need to do to be able to do that. So if you guys could help me out with some advice that would be great!
my current lap top is a Toshiba Satellite and its running on Windows Vista Home Basic.

epigene

Aug 3, 2007, 16:50

Actually I was kind of wondering that myself with my current lap top...I'd like to be able to type in Japanese a little more easily on my lap top from home so that I can answer emails from friends, and post in online Japanese communities such as mixi. But I'm not sure just what all I would need to do to be able to do that. So if you guys could help me out with some advice that would be great!
my current lap top is a Toshiba Satellite and its running on Windows Vista Home Basic.
Adding Japanese language input to your Windows Vista Home is roughly the same as for the English version of Windows XP.
The following is a guide for adding Japanese language input to Vista. Although it's in Japanese, I think you'll be able to figure it out from the screens and English words in the explanation:
Nihongo PC (http://nihongopc.us/faq/2007/07/windows_vista_home.html)

There should be no problem in what you want to do. I'm Japanese using English version of Windows XP and never had any problem writing and posting in Japanese. :cool:

Ewok85

Aug 3, 2007, 19:09

Note: Drivers are not language specific, BUT, any software that is included may be picky.

martinB

Sep 21, 2007, 15:17

Hi there,

I wanna ask you for a suggestion about my keyboard problem.

I installed a english win xp prof version and I use a japanese keyboard.
Somehow I can not use the keyboard in right way. The key settings are not set properly.

I chekced several informations in the internet and tried but I am not successfull at all.

Even if I delete any language setting for input device and just use japanese I can not succeed.

It would be great if someone here could give me some advice.

Thanks a lot
Martin

GaijinPunch

Sep 21, 2007, 15:26

You can either set your keyboard to whatever Japanese is (105?) when you install windows, or change it in the control panel. W/ old versions, it was in the keyboard applet. With XP, it looks like you have to change it in the Regional Settings. Languages->Details Set the language to English, but keyboard to Japanese. That's just a guess... I touch type w/ English 101 keyboard so have enver tried.

Ewok85

Sep 21, 2007, 15:36

I wanna ask you for a suggestion about my keyboard problem.
I installed a english win xp prof version and I use a japanese keyboard.
Somehow I can not use the keyboard in right way. The key settings are not set properly.

Its because your Windows doesn't know that the keyboard is Japanese ;)

This is simple to fix with two solutions:

One is to open the Control Panel, then Regional and language options. Click Languages then Details. Where it says "Keyboard" underneath it should say "Japanese" since you have a Japanese keyboard. If it still says "US", then click Add and select Input Language of English (Whatever) and Keyboard Layout/IME of Japanese. Click OK and then click on the old "US" and Remove it. Reboot and check for me :)

If that fails then we can change the actual hardware driver, which is easier than I made it sound.

First go to the Control Panel. Then open up System, and select Hardware, then Device Manager.

Under "Keyboards" it should have just one thing listed (usually something like 'HID Keyboard Device' or 'Standard 101-key PS/2 Keyboard'). We want to change this, so right click and select Update Driver. If it asks to connect to Windows Update, select No and click next.

The options from here are:
Install from a list or specific location (Advanced)
Don't search, I will choose the driver to install.
Untick Show compatible hardware
Find Mitsumi from the list, then select the Mitsumi Japanese USB Keyboard if it isn't already selected, and go Next
If it gives you any warnings just click Yes or Continue and reboot when told to reboot :)

That should force the mapping to Japanese, failing that theres one other setting you can check, but this is the better start point.

martinB

Sep 21, 2007, 16:45

Hi there,
thanks for welcome me here in the forum.
(today I also will have my welcome party here in the new company in Tokyo :-) ).

Well I was surprised how "complicated" it is but if you know how its easy .. hehe .. :

First go to the Control Panel. Then open up System, and select Hardware, then Device Manager.
Under "Keyboards" it should have just one thing listed (usually something like 'HID Keyboard Device' or 'Standard 101-key PS/2 Keyboard'). We want to change this, so right click and select Update Driver. If it asks to connect to Windows Update, select No and click next.
The options from here are:
Install from a list or specific location (Advanced)
Don't search, I will choose the driver to install.
Untick Show compatible hardware
Find Mitsumi from the list, then select the Mitsumi Japanese USB Keyboard if it isn't already selected, and go Next
If it gives you any warnings just click Yes or Continue and reboot when told to reboot

I did it like this and Its working well now so I can start into a relaxing weekend ...

Thanks and enjoy weekend too
Martin

PS: its really a great forum

ET_Fukuoka

Sep 22, 2007, 07:58

Dos V shops also usually carry English Keybords if you just cant deal with the little space bar and other things like that. Or just order a USB one.

w1ngzer0

Sep 22, 2007, 08:35

maushan3

Sep 24, 2007, 20:04

So, here I am. No problem. It is the same exact thing, just with more functions than my old computer. Here I can type hiragana, kanji and katakana with no problem and the system is exactly the same, just written in katakana, which I can now read easily.

I thought of bringing my own keyboard with me... phf, pathetic...

Mauricio

Ewok85

Sep 25, 2007, 10:23

Vista is rediculous. Period. It has no backwards compatibility with XP when it comes to drivers and software companies are having to remake EVERYTHING.
XP did not have problems like vista. Trust me. I beta tested XP and bought home edition. I could use 2000 drivers if i couldn't find XP drivers.
But, with vista........... nope. Your screwed. You gotta wait... :okashii:

The state of Vista is no different to XP - at the time I was working in a computer store and XP had no support for the printers, scanners and digital cameras of the time, and it took until SP1 until I was confident enough to use it full time - around about a year, which is the exact same as we are seeing for Vista.

Same with Vista - we are starting to see hardware manufacturors makes drivers that are working just as well as XP, many of the OS bugs have been rolled out, and I would say by January it would be a good time to upgrade to Vista.

Meanwhile my company has many in-house applications which we have been testing on Vista, and we haven't had any issues at all. At the current rate we should start rolling over first quarter next year, and be done in around 12months. Its inevitable - Vista has better long term support, better support for new technology, better use of increasing hardware (multithreading, large amounts of memory etc) and some of our top end bankers are practically screaming for us to get it to them ASAP so that they can start reaping the benefits - you might not see the difference as a home user, but from my perspective where I have people doing a wide range of tasks on a wide range of PC's, things look much more different.

(And I think people will appreciate the new look - its kinda pretty :) )