Naturalness and 示唆

[Glenn]

I have this sentence that says 彼女は夫の示唆で詐欺を働いた and a translation of "her husband put her up to committing fraud." However, does 示唆 really have a connotation of causation? I mean, to me the sentence reads more like "she committed fraud on her husband's suggestion."

Also, I just want a check for naturalness on this one: ほら！校正ミスだ！この校正係は居眠りでもしていたの か！Seems like it might be on the strange side, so I wanted to be sure.

[Mikawa Ossan]

I have this sentence that says 彼女は夫の示唆で詐欺を働いた and a translation of "her husband put her up to committing fraud." However, does 示唆 really have a connotation of causation? I mean, to me the sentence reads more like "she committed fraud on her husband's suggestion."I have to disagree. I think there is a connotation of causation, or "urging". However it's so overt.

[Glenn]

You mean it's not so overt?

I see, so in this instance it's like "he hinted (wink wink) at her to commit fraud?" That's the impression I'm getting here.

[undrentide]

Though it depends on the context, in this particular case,　what I feel from 示唆 is ほのめかす＋そそのかす.
According to 広辞苑, 示唆 means:
し‐さ【示唆】
(ジサとも) それとなく気づかせること。また、暗にそそのかすこと 。「―に富む」「―を与える」「大臣の更迭を―する談 話」

[Mikawa Ossan]

Yes, I agree. I think it's a kind of urging or push to do the deceit, but not anything very forceful (like blackmail, etc.)

[Glenn]

Ok, so it is like "he hinted (wink wink) at her to commit fraud," at least the way I was thinking of it. Thanks for the help, guys.

How about the other question? Is it natural?

[Mikawa Ossan]

I think that, mostly because of the "暗に" in undrentide's definition from 広辞苑 that the urging is done somehow indirectly. I am at a loss as to how to properly translate it, however... (My brain recently having been 69 years old and all...)

Also, I just want a check for naturalness on this one: ほら！校正ミスだ！この校正係は居眠りでもしていたの か！Seems like it might be on the strange side, so I wanted to be sure.Seems fine to my non-native brain. I hope undrentide comes to help soon! Her word is more reliable on such matters than mine!

[Glenn]

I see. Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if the nuance couldn't be expressed by a single word or phrase in English, but I think I have the concept down now.

I forgot your brain was 69, but it's better than, what was it, 72? Maybe if you keep taking the test it'll keep getting younger.

[undrentide]

Also, I just want a check for naturalness on this one: ほら！校正ミスだ！この校正係は居眠りでもしていたのか！Seems like it might be on the strange side, so I wanted to be sure.

It sounds to me natural enough, too.
But I'm just wondering exactly in what situation the speaker says this...

ほら！校正ミスだ！
When I first read this part, I felt that perhaps the speaker had expected it - as if saying やっぱり or 思ったとおり （校正ミスがあるじゃないか！）

But then it is followed by
この校正係は居眠りでもしていたのか！
which (to me) suggests annoyance/anger of the speaker as well as a little surprise.
Then I thought
ほら！
should be something similar to おい！（見てみろ！）, not いわんこっちゃない。

May I ask you, Glenn san, what did you feel the unnaturalness about these sentences? Does it something to do with the above?

[Glenn]

Heh, I guess just a lack of confidence, but also after I typed it out I thought that it's a bit of a strange thing to say.

So, ほら！ is like "just like I thought/here it is!" then? I was thinking something like "hey, a proofreading error! What, was the proofreader sleeping or something?" (that is, just discovering it and not having been expecting it). I was shooting more for surprise than anything else, maybe with a little bit of annoyance. So おい！ would be a better word choice there?

[undrentide]

Heh, I guess just a lack of confidence, but also after I typed it out I thought that it's a bit of a strange thing to say.

So, ほら！ is like "just like I thought/here it is!" then? I was thinking something like "hey, a proofreading error! What, was the proofreader sleeping or something?" (that is, just discovering it and not having been expecting it). I was shooting more for surprise than anything else, maybe with a little bit of annoyance. So おい！ would be a better word choice there?

I see, in that case, I think either ほら！or おい！ will do.
It also depends on the character of the person who is saying this. :)
(And maybe it is a question of style and taste rather than naturalness/correctness...)

[Glenn]

Ah, I see. Thanks for the help! :-):bow:

[Elizabeth]

I have this sentence that says 彼女は夫の示唆で詐欺を働いた and a translation of "her husband put her up to committing fraud." However, does 示唆 really have a connotation of causation? I mean, to me the sentence reads more like "she committed fraud on her husband's suggestion."
How about 彼女は夫のすすめで詐欺を働いた for a take it or leave it, above board husbandly, uh, 'suggestion.' :cool: :p