Bi-cultural Children

[Masamune_74]

I recently read another post on another website that I browse frequently and I thought this could be a good discussion topic here. There I was reading a post from an individual that was bi-cultural, Japanese and American. He said that he was strongly against bi-cultural children/marriages because of certain discriminations he faced while being raised in Japan as a bi-cultural child. So my question to those of you out there that may be "experts," as you may also be a bi-cultural offspring, is what is your feeling on this matter?

Along with this what is your opinion on bi-cultural children that go to Japanese public schools, or if you had this experience what is your view?

I am asking because I am currently engaged to a Japanese citizen and I had never looked at it from this point of view before. Any opinions you have on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

[Mike Cash]

Interesting (and probably entirely accurate) that the individual you refer to attributed the problem to being bi-cultural and not bi-racial.

Or is "bi-cultural" being used in a euphemistic, politically correct sort of way in order to avoid mention of race?

I am American, my wife is Japanese. Our children were born and raised in Japan. They're Japanese citizens and monolingual Japanese speakers. In other words: They're bi-racial, but not bi-cultural.

They attend local public schools and we've never had the first minute of trouble. One is in the second year of junior high and the other is in the sixth grade.

[Half-n-Half]

Interracial relations are perfectly fine IMHO. Kids will be kids and they will pick on anybody for being different. I have heard of instances where "bi-cultural" kids were picked on in school because they looked different or had funny names. Looking at Mike Cash's post, though, it seems these discriminations are isolated and/or not that common. I guess it just depends on their classmates.
As for me I am half American and half Japanese and have never been picked on for being "different". I was raised in the US of A, though, so I can't really speak for bi-racial kids raised in Japan.

[maushan3]

As for me I am half American and half Japanese and have never been picked on for being "different". I was raised in the US of A, though, so I can't really speak for bi-racial kids raised in Japan.

That's because, there is no "different" in the United States. This is the only country, along with Canada that is almost made up entirely of people from all over the world, so I don't think it is the same to be in a classroom where there are over 9 ethnicites than being in a school where there's only one gaijin.

Mauricio

[Half-n-Half]

That's because, there is no "different" in the United States. This is the only country, along with Canada that is almost made up entirely of people from all over the world, so I don't think it is the same to be in a classroom where there are over 9 ethnicites than being in a school where there's only one gaijin.
Mauricio
That's exactly what I was saying in my last sentence and when I put "different" in quotations. Sorry if it was a little vague.

[Masamune_74]

Thanks a ton for those of you that have replied, this is the kind of discussion I was looking for. Mike in my case my future wife and I want to make sure our sons/daughters are bi-lingual. I feel that it would be much easier to raise and school our children in Japan and teach them English at home (I am a teacher) to supplement what they learn in the public schools in Japan.
To answer your question I was trying to be P.C. and non-offensive with my language. Although you make a good point that there is indeed a difference between bi-racial and bi-cultural.

[Glenski]

My kid is almost 4. He is practically bilingual, despite having grown up completely in Japan. I'm his only source of English, too. So far, no discrimination against him (other than the incessant "kawaii" shrieks we get from young women who see him for the first time), but I expect to experience some later in his life. Will deal with it then.

Bullying is only part of the problems bicultural kids face in Japan, and it should not be minimalized as "occasional instances". Just read somewhere that a bicultural kid in high school was forced to dye his/her hair color to the "standard acceptable Japanese black". Unbelievable.

[ET_Fukuoka]

My son is 2 months old and we are considering going back to Japan in Jan 2008. I am in Hawaii now so everyone and their uncle "mixed" with something or another. I really want him to be able to read and write in Japanese, so Japan would be the best place of course. On the other hand I want him to be an excellent English speaker as well. As for the Bullying you just got to teach him some jujitsu ;-)

[bakaKanadajin]

I was raised the opposite way.. I was raised in Canada as a Japanese-Canadian blood-wise, but I only spoke English until recently. My mother spoke English fluently, and since my father was of British descent and English was his only language, Japanese just wasn't spoken around the house really. I'm studying it now, and while I muse to myself how much easier it'd be if I'd learned from childhood, I can't say I'd be the same person now, so it's futile to regret it. I'm enjoying learning anyway.

I will say though, as a child, since I didn't look 100% white, it made growing up tough since I was raised 'white' and I felt that I was. Not integrating 100% with peers is a tough thing for a kid, so I can understand the concern a parent may have in a largely homogenous society like Japan. Because it was Canada, I think despite a few instances I had a very smooth ride. It's amusing now to return to Japan because to 99% of the Japanese people I'm a gaijin. To 50-75% of gaijin however they can tell I have something in me. I've been pegged as many different things, ranging from Hawaiian to one of the Russian/East Asian border countries like Kazakhstan or one of the other 'stan' countries.

That being said, however, I still think raising a biracial or multilingual child is a huge one-up over children with no second language or culture. If I end up marrying a woman who speaks a second language I'll definitely want that language to be used in the household. Most likely it'd be Japanese if anything. I think if a child has two ethnicities it's great to embrace both, it's a great experience to have two cultures to learn from and draw on as they get older and wish to develop themselves and their ideas.

[KirinMan]

There I was reading a post from an individual that was bi-cultural, Japanese and American. He said that he was strongly against bi-cultural children/marriages because of certain discriminations he faced while being raised in Japan as a bi-cultural child.

I hope someone on that board reminded him that if it wasnt for his parents he wouldn't be around to make comments like this. Just because he had "difficulties" as a child doesn't put everyone else in the same boat either as you surely know.

I have three children, my wife is Japanese and I am American, 2 were born here in Japan and all three were raised here in Japan. They have yet to face any discrimination themselves, my daughter is working at a part time job to save money for college, she is 20 and bilingual, my two sons are still school age and go to a local "American" school and they study Japanese at home.

Being a "double" is something they know, but it isnt a conscious kind of thing, even when on occasion people make ignorant comments about their language abilities. They also enjoy having 2 rather large and extended families, one here in Japan the other in the US.

Even though my two sons do not go to the local schools they participate in numerous community activities and have a large circle of friends as well. In fact they rather like having their "school" friends who are mostly Americans and their "house" friends.

[Harun]

That's because, there is no "different" in the United States. This is the only country, along with Canada that is almost made up entirely of people from all over the world, so I don't think it is the same to be in a classroom where there are over 9 ethnicites than being in a school where there's only one gaijin.
Mauricio

I know what you mean but that is not completely true --- 90% + are most likely white on their own
as here in England it will seem as though we have many different ethnicities when you enter a particular city, but it is actually 90+% white which was surprising for me at first ... not that there's anything wrong with it LOL but I am just saying America is probably in the same situation with Japan at this point

[Masamune_74]

90% + are most likely white on their own
as here in England it will seem as though we have many different ethnicities when you enter a particular city, but it is actually 90+% white...I am just saying America is probably in the same situation with Japan at this point
Not 100% sure if you actually looked up the statistics on that info, but you can find the actual statistics here:
w w w. census.gov/population/pop-profile/2000/chap08.pdf
(sorry I couldn't get it to link for some reason {You do not have enough posts yet to add URLs to third-party websites}).
Here are the U.S. elementary and high school statistics as of 2000 (I am sure they have changed some since then):
White Non-Hispanic:63.3%
Black: 16.4%
Hispanic 15.4%
Foreign Born: 5.4%
Asian and Pacific Islander: 4.2%
Not so sure about England I just looked up the US. At any rate the point that Maushan3 made; "That's because, there is no "different" in the United States." Is somewhat generalized but over all true. Yes you will find pockets in different areas that are 90%+ white however, coming from a teacher (me) there is a great diversity here as you can see from that info.
All of this points to the fact that it would probably be easier to grow up in the US as a bi-racial child than in Japan. Now I am so interested I think I will go look at Japan's stats.

[Masamune_74]

Thought I would throw out another stat for you stat lovers.
Japanese Ethnic Groups: 99.4% Japanese and 0.6% other, mostly Korean (40.4% of non-Japanese), some Chinese and Filipinos. Ainu, Ryukyuans and hisabetsu buraku constitute native Japanese minority groups. (Demography of Japan, Wikipedia)

[Tenshiboy]

Well my fiancéé is japanese, and we are planning to marry in January in Belgium because she will do her study at the university here for about 4 years and after her graduation we planned to move to Japan and to live our life there, because for certain personal reasons it's better for her, and for me it's also no problem.(as it was also my dream to live there since a long time :-))
When we talked about having childrens we came to the answer that we both wanted to raise our childrens in Japan, but I also asked myself if it would be a problem for them to have a father who is a がじん...
but I think that everybody has his or her own mentality , I mean, of course old people in Japan has a little more problem to accept that a Japanese women or men marry a がじん, but younger people accept it more easily, because they are more open to other cultures and countries so i don't think that it would be a big problem for our future childrens.
If we want to raise them in Japan, is because we want them to live, in the Japanese culture, we want them to grow in the same way (almost the same way) of their mother, so they will be perfect japanese boys and girls, but maybe their looking will not be exactly japanese, i mean maybe our childrens will not look like Japanese or Asian, so maybe it will be a little bit difficult for others to accept that, even if we don't care about how people thinks, our childrens will care about it, so it's kind of question i ask myself several times, because i want our childrens to grow up normally without any problems or weird looking by the society.

My fiancée says there will be no problem because she already saw herself A LOT of がじん having babies and childrens going to public schools without having any problems or weird looking by the society,
but is it really everywhere like that in Japan, or only in big city's like 東京 , that's what i wanted to know.

Because yes i we want to live in 東京, but maybe our way of thinking or our ideas will change , so maybe we will want to live in other city's like 長野 or 長野 or even 京濤 so i would like to know if the mentality of the people, kids and so on changes with the city or is it really everywhere the same ?

I just want to be sure of the place we will raise up our kids without having any bad memories.

Thank you for your help ;)

[maushan3]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand Kanji yet, but I assume you are talking about living in Tokyo? and I think as long as you have a possitive mentality and raise your children to be mentally strong you could live pretty much anywhere you'd like to, don't let that stop you from living where you want, after all, sooner or later, they might have to face the gaijin problem.

Mauricio

[FrustratedDave]

When we talked about having childrens we came to the answer that we both wanted to raise our childrens in Japan, but I also asked myself if it would be a problem for them to have a father who is a がじん...

I imagine you mean "がいじん"？　


Bullying is only part of the problems bicultural kids face in Japan, and it should not be minimalized as "occasional instances". Just read somewhere that a bicultural kid in high school was forced to dye his/her hair color to the "standard acceptable Japanese black". Unbelievable.

That is a bit harsh and is most likely an isolated case. But Glenski does bring up a good point about bullying, however my boy is quite a few inches bigger than his even the biggest classmates, so he rarely gets bullied. (gets it from his dad, I am about 240 pounds and no I am not fat, I was heavily into sport up until recently) Anyway, these days there is no need for concern in regards to discrimination in most situations towards your bi-racial kids. Yeras ago it was a little bit different, but that is a whole different story.

[Glenski]

Well my fiancéé is japanese, (snip)
When we talked about having childrens we came to the answer that we both wanted to raise our childrens in Japan, (snip)

If we want to raise them in Japan, is because we want them to live, in the Japanese culture, we want them to grow in the same way (almost the same way) of their mother, so they will be perfect japanese boys and girls, I don't think this is possible. Certainly, you shouldn't count on it, but welcome it if it happens.

My fiancée says there will be no problem Be afraid of sweeping thoughts like this. What your fiancee saw may not be the case overall.

because she already saw herself A LOT of がじん having babies and childrens going to public schools without having any problems or weird looking by the society,And, did your fiancee live with those children 24 hours a day to know exactly what they faced? No. Again, beware.

[Glenn]

Because yes i we want to live in 東京, but maybe our way of thinking or our ideas will change , so maybe we will want to live in other city's like 長野 or 長野 or even 京濤 so i would like to know if the mentality of the people, kids and so on changes with the city or is it really everywhere the same ?

For those who can't read kanji: 東京 - Tokyo, 長野 - Nagano (I assume one of them was supposed to be 名古屋 - Nagoya), and 京濤 I'm pretty sure is supposed to be 京都 - Kyoto (that's きょうと, not きょうとう).

[DoctorP]

Being a "double"


I am so glad to see you use this wording and not half!

I have always used "double" to describe my kids and their abilities. To say someone is half, is to suggest that they are not whole, or that they are lacking. I have always told my kids to think of themselves as double. I've also told them that if they were ever teased for being "half" to explain to the perp. that he is not half, that he is double, and that makes him twice as good as the kid doing the teasing! Then to explain to the other child, "what makes you special?, I can read, write, and speak two languages fluently, what can you do?" Then I tell him to repeat the same sentence in English just to confuse them!

If you have children of mixed race, I would hope that you never tell them that they are "half" of anything!

[Mike Cash]

I've always avoided both "half" and "double" and thought of my kids as just kids.

[Mikawa Ossan]

This whole idea of "double" has never sit with me very well.

I'm half German, quarter Swedish and quarter English, but I would never call myself a "triple".

If the women in this world ever come to their senses and one of them finally decides to marry me and have children together, I don't think I would want to call my child a "double".

He or she will be half Japanese, as much as I am half German.

I used to want to raise my children biculturally, but now I think I've changed my mind. I think Mike Cash's approach of raising biracial kids in a monocultural setting is the best way to go.

[FrustratedDave]

I've always avoided both "half" and "double" and thought of my kids as just kids.
This is a good attitude, that I try to take too.

[Masamune_74]

Thanks again to all of you that have posted, you valuable insight(s) have allowed me to augment my own thinking for my situation.

Arigato Gozaimasu!!

[GaijinPunch]

(other than the incessant "kawaii" shrieks we get from young women who see him for the first time), but I expect to experience some later in his life. Will deal with it then.

That is the irony, that once you have the kid, the women flock. :(

I've always avoided both "half" and "double" and thought of my kids as just kids.

I actually refer to my 5-month old son as "Cute, little half-white baby" quite a bit, usually to get a rise out of my wife. However, it's more or less an amalgam of Ricky Bobby's prayer to "cute, little baby Jesus" and Glen's (from Raising Arizona) "Healthy white baby?!?! 5 Years?!?!"

In all actuality, at this point, he looks white. Our friends call him the white boy version of my wife.

I've always avoided both "half" and "double" and thought of my kids as just kids.

With all due respect, would you consider you're not giving them a boost that would arguably open many doors down the road... perhaps even the ability to speak with non-immediate family?

[Mike Cash]

With all due respect, would you consider you're not giving them a boost that would arguably open many doors down the road... perhaps even the ability to speak with non-immediate family?

Circumstances more or less dictated how things turned out with my brood. I don't have the financial means or the free time to schlep them back and forth to "the old country" as most foreigners seem to have. And my work schedule isn't conducive to spending sufficient time with them to maintain their English ability. There is no international school in my area, and even if there were I don't have the dough to send them.

I will point out that the single largest mistake a person wishing to raise bilingual children can make is to ever let the children know you are functional in another language. Children are highly pragmatic and will follow the path of least resistance (read: "effort"). Lectures about the value of having facility in another language in the future fall on deaf ears; kids are all about the here and now. And so long as they know they can communicate with Daddy in Japanese, that's what they're going to do.

[GaijinPunch]

Yeah, I've heard that. Even now, I speak English around the little guy. Thanks for the two cents.

[KirinMan]

Yeah, I've heard that. Even now, I speak English around the little guy. Thanks for the two cents.

I wouldn't knock it until you've been through the stiuation Mike is talking about. I went through something similar with my oldest daughter, fortunately my wife and I could afford private schools for her and her 2 younger brothers so they now all speak both languages.

Looking back at it I am glad we are making the sacrifice for them as it gives them other options as they grow up, particularly in regards to choice of colleges and universities being bilingual helps that's for sure. However even if they were in a situation like Mikes kids I would be happy for them as well, they are still my kids and we can communicate in either language.

I know of mixed families here where the father's can not speak with their children fluently in either language. In fact Mom many times has to step in to clarify what Dad is saying. That is a bigger problem.

[GaijinPunch]

Private school is definitely on the horizon. I wouldn't bet my house on it, but as my in-laws only grandchild, I don't think he's going to lack many luxuries in life (at least while they're around).

[FrustratedDave]

Just my experience, but I feel that international schools leave the child at a very mediocre level of schooling which will limit their ability to go to a good college here or abroard. Especially here in Japan as it is very difficult to get into college. I suppose it comes down to what you want for you kids. No international schools for mine though, they are all going to normal schools.

[GaijinPunch]

Especially here in Japan as it is very difficult to get into college.

"Normal" schools do not prepare them either. Enter: the juku. So, now kids go to school, are involved in all sorts of extra curricular activities, and on top of that have to go to a juku to cram facts that they won't retain in order to get into a school that requires only a pulse to graduate from (even the top ones).

Even if I hadn't heard anything but positive things from parents that send their kids to the international schools, it's still a no-brainer (tuition issues set aside).

[FrustratedDave]

"Normal" schools do not prepare them either. Enter: the juku. So, now kids go to school, are involved in all sorts of extra curricular activities, and on top of that have to go to a juku to cram facts that they won't retain in order to get into a school that requires only a pulse to graduate from (even the top ones).

Even if I hadn't heard anything but positive things from parents that send their kids to the international schools, it's still a no-brainer (tuition issues set aside).
I agree intenational schools do provide a great atmosphere and they get the basics taught to them and as you say there are juku's and after school activities to attend when attending a "normal" school.　That being said a "normal" school still provides a far better chance of getting into those colleges. Agreed most colleges are all down hill once you get it, but there are still some carrers like a lawyer, Doctor, pilot and of course there are more that I won't go into , that require a lot of additional study so as you can pass.

Again I believe it untimately comes down to what you want for yours kids future, ie do you plan on living here for the rest of your life along with your kids? (if they go to an international school they may be more likely to seek something abroad, which is also good)

[KirinMan]

I suppose it comes down to what you want for you kids. No international schools for mine though, they are all going to normal schools.
Well one thing about private schools, as you know not all of them are so called international schools either. That's not the point I am trying to make here though.

Unless your child looks just like any of the other kids in class they are going to stick out as being "half" to the other kids and teachers in the school. Their differences will make them stick out, no matter what you or anyone else does about it. Some kids flourish in that enviroment others do not.

It is particularly harder on boys than girls. Kids that come from families with both parents also have the expectation placed upon them that they will be bilingual. Many parents are also totally unaware of this, whether the expectation comes from the teacher or other kids in the class, it's there, and that is and of itself creates pressure for some of the children.

By placing my children in a Christian School here in Okinawa I've made the conscious decision to let them study in an environment where everyone is different, so they do not stick out and can relax and not have to worry about things like this.

Oh and btw my oldest daughter graduated from a "normal":relief: Japanese elementary school.

And I am sure we could discuss the idea of a "normal" Japanese school for days. There is much about them that is of course normal, but there is much about them as well they defy the meaning of the word "normal school".

[FrustratedDave]

Unless your child looks just like any of the other kids in class they are going to stick out as being "half" to the other kids and teachers in the school. Their differences will make them stick out, no matter what you or anyone else does about it. Some kids flourish in that enviroment others do not.
It is particularly harder on boys than girls. Kids that come from families with both parents also have the expectation placed upon them that they will be bilingual. Many parents are also totally unaware of this, whether the expectation comes from the teacher or other kids in the class, it's there, and that is and of itself creates pressure for some of the children.
By placing my children in a Christian School here in Okinawa I've made the conscious decision to let them study in an environment where everyone is different, so they do not stick out and can relax and not have to worry about things like this.
Oh and btw my oldest daughter graduated from a "normal":relief: Japanese elementary school.
And I am sure we could discuss the idea of a "normal" Japanese school for days. There is much about them that is of course normal, but there is much about them as well they defy the meaning of the word "normal school".
I agree, I would not force my kids to go to a typical Japanese school if they were to be in some way discriminated against.

I mean juku fees are 50,000 yen a month just for one child ,thats 100,000 yen a month for two kids. :souka: So there is no real incentive to force your kids to go if they don't want to, well thats what I am thinking.

The international or private school is an opption I willing to consider ,but I would prefer them to go to a Japanese school and if needs be pay more money for them to learn English privately. I know I could not teach them ,b/c of time constraints with work. I know everyone situation is different and I also believe that where you live will be a big factor on where you do send them.

I also could say a few words about "normal" too, I don't have much time now, so I will post later.

[KirinMan]

I mean juku fees are 50,000 yen a month just for one child ,thats 100,000 yen a month for two kids. So there is no real incentive to force your kids to go if they don't want to, well thats what I am thinking.

My wife and I pay roughly 110,000 yen per month tuition not including the costs incurred from having to make lunch everyday plus picking them up and taking them to school. It aint cheap by any sense and because we are paying for their ES,JHS and HS education like this, all three have known from a very young age that "they" will be paying for their own college education, even if they have to rob a bank to do it.

I paid my own way as well as my wife, one can do it if they have the determination to do so. I also think one appreciates their education more if they pay for it rather than having Mommy and Daddy do everything for them.

[Masamune_74]

I paid my own way as well as my wife, one can do it if they have the determination to do so. I also think one appreciates their education more if they pay for it rather than having Mommy and Daddy do everything for them.

Couldn't agree with you more, when I first started school I felt left out or something from my parents since we fell into the too rich / not rich enough category when it came to financial aid. But looking back I am much more appreciative of my degree / schooling now. Although I do plan on setting some money aside for my kids education it will probably be only enough for their 1st year.

[Mike Cash]

One problem with the "international" schools is that in many (all?) cases they are not recognized by the Ministry of Education, or whatever its current name is, adding an extra hurdle when it comes time to try for admission to Japanese colleges. Or so I have been led to believe. My information may be incorrect or out of date, so any parents for whom this may apply, please hunt around for up to date, accurate information.

[Tsukiko-chan]

Well I'm Bi-cultural.. I don't really have problems with it..
I'm part dutch and part Lebanese.
There was a time when they teased me calling me names like Fatima or saying I have a mustache *while my mom made sure I will never get one.*
Just because I had an Islamic background. But that was only done by people who tease everyone who they can tease.
But often people don't even notice it here.. They can often say really bad sings about all Islamic people without noticing half my family is ...
But I will notice quick it are just stupid people talking like that..
( I look more Lebanese than dutch btw)

[KirinMan]

One problem with the "international" schools is that in many (all?) cases they are not recognized by the Ministry of Education, or whatever its current name is, adding an extra hurdle when it comes time to try for admission to Japanese colleges. Or so I have been led to believe. My information may be incorrect or out of date, so any parents for whom this may apply, please hunt around for up to date, accurate information.
This is true. If the children want to get into a Japanese University they will first have to show proof of graduation from a Japanese HS or the equivalent document, something that is similar to a GED, General Education Diploma, in the US but called the "daiken" here in Japan.

Well I'm Bi-cultural.. I don't really have problems with it..
I'm part dutch and part Lebanese.
I'm truly glad for you. Have you ever been here to Japan?

[Murs]

On a massive tangent, but I found this combo odd, but cute

(delete spaces)
ht tp://w ww.youtube.com/watch?v=CjjPhz5r2ws&mode=related&search=

[GaijinPunch]

I guess it's worth noting: There's no way I will actively promote my son going to a Japanese University. You can all it snobbery or whatever, but having had at least some experience in higher education in Japan (some time at a senmon gakko, and had plenty of Japanese college friends), I can clearly see it's a joke. Unless he wants to pay for it himself, it's on a plane back to the states for 4 years.

[FrustratedDave]

My wife and I pay roughly 110,000 yen per month tuition not including the costs incurred from having to make lunch everyday plus picking them up and taking them to school. It aint cheap by any sense and because we are paying for their ES,JHS and HS education like this, all three have known from a very young age that "they" will be paying for their own college education, even if they have to rob a bank to do it.
I paid my own way as well as my wife, one can do it if they have the determination to do so. I also think one appreciates their education more if they pay for it rather than having Mommy and Daddy do everything for them.
We are going to pay for children to go to college, although I had to pay for my education, I think my wife wants this more than I do.

You can take the test independently which qualify your kids to take the college entrance exams.

[Mars Man]

Speaking of monsters...yeap, have three of them. . . three wild and crazy boys !!

The oldest son speaks both languages fairly well--I mean English is fairly well and Japanese? I pretty much assume it's as well as any native speaker. Our middle son handles the Japanese just fine. . . his English is quite under par (we'll pin that one on a non-believing marriage partner) but listening comprehesion is fair enough. The third son has much less English ability--and hopefully that will change now that he has become a jr. high student.

None of the boys had any problems with being from an inter-national/cultural marriage--as far as I know, and it is a small village-like setting. (everyone knows everyone, just about) In fact, I must sadly admit, my youngest son was kind of picking on a neighbor boy in his class, and I had to get on to him hard for that. He's ok now. The two younger boys are quite atheltic with the middle son coming in number one for Nagano Prefecture in the 5th grade boys 100 meter dash, and represented Nagano in Tokyo at the Nationals. My youngest boy came in third at the Nagano race last year. This sportsmanship element may have helped in some way...maybe.

All did the Japanese public education system. We have saved money for them to use, but it will have to be supported with loans too. They'll have to pay back the loans. I did my own college myself too, very little from my folks.

The kids whose parents are second generation or more Brazilian get along fairly well here in Nagano too, for the most part--it seems. Being non-Japanese here, is still a bit novel, I guess. We have had no problems--as a non-typical, international family here--other than what can be pinned on a non-believing partner. :-)

[Masamune_74]

Thanks for the great post Mars Man. I have a question for you though. What is a non-believing partner, I have never heard of that term before.

[Mars Man]

Ha, ha ha....hee, hee, hee....yes, that is one of my originals !! Sorry...I just threw it out there thinking that maybe the reading between the lines of emotion within the post would draw out a conception of just what I had had in mind.

Ususally 'non-believing' is used for those who are not 'believers' of a certain religious belief-system, here, though, I use it for a partner who tends not to 'believe' in their partner--you know, not give due credit to or for, lets things of high truth value go in one ear and out the other, expects a certain attitude but does not reciprocate, and so on...

Apologies for the confusion !!

[Mikawa Ossan]

Sounds to me like every woman on the planet could fit that description, Mars Man! :p

[Mars Man]

Yeah, well...Mikawa Ossan san, when studying in that sexology and Evolutionary/biology/psychology field, a person comes across that basic tendency. The average female brain--and by extension personality--doesn't fit the male counter-part, thus, in effect making such a thing seemingly the obvious case.

To tie this in with the OP, I would then argue that a couple has to bear that in mind, and thus make equal efforts to not allow such a 'dis-balance' to overcome the situation when dealing with children in a marriage where cultural upbring differences can come to play. It takes two hands to clap. . . and if one hand refuses to do so?

[Void]

:D Sounds to me like every man on the planet could fit that description, Mikawa Ossan! :D :D

[GaijinPunch]

Sounds to me like every woman on the planet could fit that description, Mars Man!

Afterall, they do have that smaller brain.
(See Borat?)

[KirinMan]

other than what can be pinned on a non-believing partner.

Could it be safely assumed that your wife thinks the same about you as well?

Great line btw.:-)

[Mars Man]

Could it be safely assumed that your wife thinks the same about you as well?
Great line btw.:-)

Thanks for the compliment. In fair and due consideration of the historical developments, the hereditary/geneological ly based displays of actions and worldview, the idiosyncrasies in aggregate, and the tenor of reactions to numerous, well-shown-to-be-more-factual/realistic-than-not events over time, I would strongly argue that she is in no position to satisfactorily defend any such claims against me to the degree that any relatively material damage to my claim against her would be effected.

In other words...and I'm being honest here, and as fair as I think is fair enough...I see a far greater amount of substantiated claims against her than she has against me.

Now...to get back on topic...

In international/cultural marriages between Japanese women and non-oriental (I'll say for now--and this could be wrong) men, it is important to keep a focus on each other as partners equally as much as it to focus on being a parent--from each individual parent. There is a fairly-well-accepted-to-be-so tendency among Japanese women to focus more on the children once they come along.

This, again, is a tendency set by nature to some degree, of course--for the average female--but is stressed somehow by Japanese (at least for now) society. It is for this reason that I cannot stand the 'family service' concept which has come up. The circumstances and understandings should never have arisen from which this concept could have been born--saving an occasional Sunday for family service

I'm not saying that it could have totally been avoided, anymore, perhaps, than capitalism or consumerism could have been avoided, but that it should never have been allowed to gain such 'momentum' or acceptance.

The moral is, encourage the existence of the 'lovers' between the father and mother.

[junjunforever]

i think you guys are discounting international schools too much. As far as i know, most "normal" international schools (those that have 1st - 12th grade are globally recognized.

The biggest upside to attending international (american) school is the TOEFL score. Ive never set a foot in the U.S. while growing up in Japan, and i virtually aced the TOEFL (just like many other students). I know a guy, who barely graduated, got a really high TOEFL and got accepted to Aoyama. Some Korean students went to the best colleges in korea solely based on TOEFL and schools wanting "diversity." I believe Tokyo University do not accept students from international schools, but kids have chance at places like waseda or other private colleges.

It is much easier to teach japanese to students attending international school, than teach english to kids attending japanese school. The "best" time to switch school, is around 3rd grade i think. Go beyond 3rd grade, and i dont think the students often get the "native english" speaker status, unless both their parents speak english only at home.

[Ultraman]

:jama:
I got the heeby jeebys when my boy was playing soccer in the street with the neighbor. My boy was always 'France'.
We went back to multicultural NZ, but the bland multi racial melting pot wasn't very inspiring. Continual overt institutional reinforcement of racial equality was depressing(!).
Back here now, I find that he is happy being himself. He is so happy with his friends. He says he is Japanese and if pressed says "and NZ'er".
Where I live the neighborhood is happy to see kids playing in the street again. The population has definitely aged here.
He speaks english when I am present, for my benefit, but he can switch languages instantly. (I have to give him ￥１００ to translate what some one said though.)
I have two friends who are brothers in NZ from a mixed marriage, and one of them never wants to go to Japan again and can't speak the language. The other went through university here. The university guy said that when he was with his mates drinking, the conversation always ended up in obscure manga story lines that he could never know.
That experience that he related has stayed with me. I think that to make the best of it is 'in for a penny in for a pound'.
I worry that my sons career will have a glass ceiling in Japan, but if he likes it here maybe he can accept the reason why.
He wants to be a concrete truck driver right now, :dunce:
so I am not too worried about the future.

[FrustratedDave]

i think you guys are discounting international schools too much. As far as i know, most "normal" international schools (those that have 1st - 12th grade are globally recognized.
The biggest upside to attending international (american) school is the TOEFL score. Ive never set a foot in the U.S. while growing up in Japan, and i virtually aced the TOEFL (just like many other students). I know a guy, who barely graduated, got a really high TOEFL and got accepted to Aoyama. Some Korean students went to the best colleges in korea solely based on TOEFL and schools wanting "diversity." I believe Tokyo University do not accept students from international schools, but kids have chance at places like waseda or other private colleges.

That is true about the TOEFL, but that still won't enable you to get into the fields like medicine, law and other difficult feilds. If you are genuinely looking at a future in a high academically demanding feild, an International school just does not cut it, sorry.

[junjunforever]

That is true about the TOEFL, but that still won't enable you to get into the fields like medicine, law and other difficult feilds. If you are genuinely looking at a future in a high academically demanding feild, an International school just does not cut it, sorry.

That is true. There is no way an international students can become a lawyer or doctor in japan. However, there are plenty of chances for these students to become a lawyer or doctor in the U.S. or other english speaking countries.

So if your child has decided to stay in japan for the rest of his life, japanese school it is. But if he wants wider options in going abroad and working more internationally, I think international schools are just as good, if not better, than japanese schools.

Afterall, the kids can be perfect english speakers living in japan (if their parents are native english speakers) by going to international school. Why should they forego of this chance?

[nova]

I think you may be focusing on the bi-cultural trait a little bit too much, lets assume that you had a child that was not half, double, ameripanese (or whatsoever way you choose to label them anyway).

What if is ugly? or get mocked by any other sort of "defect"? Like having a long nose or simply having some personality trait that make them as you would usually say "stick out" over others, seriously.

People can get discriminated for all sort of stupid stuff, anyway.

I agree there are levels of rejection and levels of rejection and a person who looks different in a 'homogenous society' or whatsoever have more chances to being pick on.

But your kids will be individuals whether you realize of it or not, so maybe instead of looking for a general solution to bi-cultural children may you take into account to help them build some self-esteem?.

[Mike Cash]

That is true. There is no way an international students can become a lawyer or doctor in japan.
And, specifically, what prevents them?

[Masamune_74]

But your kids will be individuals whether you realize of it or not, so maybe instead of looking for a general solution to bi-cultural children may you take into account to help them build some self-esteem?.

I totally agree with what you are saying here Nova just I started this post as a way to get a feeling of what it would be like as a dad of a bi-racial child being raised in a homogeneous society. I felt like this was some crucial info I needed before becoming a dad; as my future wife and I plan to raise our children in Japan. Thanks for your 2 pesos. Muchas Gracias

[Mike Cash]

I started this post as a way to get a feeling of what it would be like as a dad of a bi-racial child being raised in a homogeneous society. I felt like this was some crucial info I needed before becoming a dad; as my future wife and I plan to raise our children in Japan.

I am reminded of some words of wisdom I heard at the pre-marital counselling classes which were mandatory for Americans marrrying Japanese back when I did it. (Yes, the Navy can mandate damned near anything it wants).

The fellow running that particular session, himself married to a Japanese and living in Japan a couple of decades or so, told us that the majority of our problems and differences would not stem from one being American and one being Japanese, but rather from one being male and one being female.

It has been my experience that raising bi-racial kids in a homogeneous society is a very close parallel of that. The racial makeup and cultural background have never really factored into things very much at all. Certainly not as much as the bog standard crap that is part and parcel of raising any kid.

It is neither as glamorous nor as traumatic as lots of folks seem to believe.

[FrustratedDave]

And, specifically, what prevents them?
The biggest problem is the "大学受験" this is extremly difficult and even students who attend schools geared towards these profesions have a extremly high failure rate. I won't say all but most will fail the first time and then become a "ronin" until they can take the test again that year. It is not uncomon to hear about people doing 4, 5 and six times before being able to enter college.

The way the tests are set up is almost a pre-requisit and requires you to go to one of these schools that are focused on these professions from 1st year junior high school. Like anything, it is not impossible ,but it is extremly unlikely that anyone that attended an international school will be able to pass the exams required, even with years of juku under their belt. And those odds just don't sit well with me.

That is true. There is no way an international students can become a lawyer or doctor in japan. However, there are plenty of chances for these students to become a lawyer or doctor in the U.S. or other english speaking countries.

So if your child has decided to stay in japan for the rest of his life, japanese school it is. But if he wants wider options in going abroad and working more internationally, I think international schools are just as good, if not better, than japanese schools.

Afterall, the kids can be perfect english speakers living in japan (if their parents are native english speakers) by going to international school. Why should they forego of this chance?
Very hard to know what your child will want to do when he/she is an adult, don't you think?

[Mike Cash]

I understand there are difficulties, and I appreciate your outlining them. But difficulties are quite different from saying "there is no way", which implies there is some sort of ban against them and is more specifically what I was hoping junjun would clarify.

And can you please edit your post to show the correct attributions? I didn't say any of the things in those three paragraphs. Thanks.

[8bit.vis]

So my question to those of you out there that may be "experts," as you may also be a bi-cultural offspring, is what is your feeling on this matter?
Generally speaking, it has been my own personal experience that the biggest problem bi-cultural or bi-racial children have to deal with comes from people fretting about their having problems to deal with.

To put things in perspective, a bi-cultural child who is raised in just one environment (eg, isn't being shuttled back and forth between countries) is going to tend to have less cultural difficulty in that environment than a monocultural immigrant will have adjusting to it.

Of course, I can't speak for Japan in specific. But if you are at all reluctant to have children in an international marriage just because of the bi-cultural / bi-racial question, don't worry about it. They should be fine if you refrain from treating them like some kind of science experiment. Some people will mock their ethnic differences, but then again a great many people are mocked for a whole range of differences. This one shouldn't be particularly significant in that regard.

[FrustratedDave]

I understand there are difficulties, and I appreciate your outlining them. But difficulties are quite different from saying "there is no way", which implies there is some sort of ban against them and is more specifically what I was hoping junjun would clarify.

And can you please edit your post to show the correct attributions? I didn't say any of the things in those three paragraphs. Thanks.
Sorry Mike, forgot to change the name,. but its fixed now.:bluush:

And to adress your first part of the post, I agree, nothing is set in stone.

[junjunforever]

youre right mike.. i may have proclaimed fatalistic general truth without trying.

I belive if the kids are smart and willing to put in a lot of effort, it is possible.

I also graudated one of those international schools. In the class of 40, my japanese skills were perhaps 3rd or 4th in class. I can read and understand any japanese newspapers, and have decent (but grossly subpar to native japnese speakers) writing skills. But i know i wouldnt stand a chance in a japnese law class.


With everything being equal, international school students spend more time studying english. It would be easy to say that students can just put more effort than the japanese counter-parts. But the japanese counterparts who want to become lawyers and doctors already spend 10+ hours a day outside school. So in effect, unless the child is a "genius", it is nearly impossible for international school students to pass japanese college entrance tests, let alone be a doctor or a lawyer.

That in no way is putting down international schools. I know many people who went to Penn, harvard, or cornell. It just seems to me that if u want to become a doctor or lawyer, the chances are much higher in the U.S..

[Mike Cash]

Thanks for clarifying. The problem was not so much your statement as concern based on the fact that lots of readers on the internet display an inability to tell the difference from an accurate and categorical statement of fact and opinion embellished with hyperbole. We have enough folks operating on faulty or poorly understood information as it is.

[Taiko666]

I will point out that the single largest mistake a person wishing to raise bilingual children can make is to ever let the children know you are functional in another language. Children are highly pragmatic and will follow the path of least resistance (read: "effort"). Lectures about the value of having facility in another language in the future fall on deaf ears; kids are all about the here and now. And so long as they know they can communicate with Daddy in Japanese, that's what they're going to do.

I understand what you're saying about children's perspectives, but why is just letting them know (or find out) that you speak another language a mistake?

Did you actively hide the fact that you speak another language?

[Mike Cash]

I thought the last sentence in the quoted section answered the first question.

The answer to the second question is, "No." Part of the reason I have monolingual Japanese speaking kids.

[Goldiegirl]

My husband and I are hoping for a child soon. I want our kid(s) to speak Japanese and English. As for culture, it comes with the country they are raised in...

[GaijinPunch]

As for culture, it comes with the country they are raised in...

Or lack there of in many cases.

[FrustratedDave]

My husband and I are hoping for a child soon. I want our kid(s) to speak Japanese and English. As for culture, it comes with the country they are raised in...
You have more chance of them speaking both languages very well if the mother is English speaking(Well if you go by the patterns of the wife staying home here)

[Ultraman]

I agree FrustratedDave.

My son only heard and spoke english living outside Japan until three years old. Wifey was bilingual, but never spoke japanese with him.
From three to four years old, he went to hoikuen while living in Japan. In one year he forgot to speak english. Even though wifey and I only spoke in english at home then, he only replied in japanese.
After a six month stint in NZ, he became bilingual. I taught him to read and write english, bought bilingual DVD's that he watches with friends in the language of his peers.

He talks both languages with his mother which is the icing on the cake.
As soon as I can speak japanese it'll be the cherry on top.

...gotta go. "Dada! The arrow doesn't work on the dinosaur game!"...