A couple sentences

[genericdave]

Just a couple of sentences I made. It would be great if someone could check them and tell me if there's anything wrong. Thanks in advance!

僕の話すのを習っているのは東京の日本語です。
What i am learning to speak is Tokyo Japanese.

あなたは行こうとしているだろうと思います。
I think you are probably trying to leave

[Mikawa Ossan]

僕が標準語を勉強しています。

How about this for the first one? It says "I'm learing standard Japanese".

As for the second one, in what context do you have in mind for using it?

[nice gaijin]

Are you trying to reproduce the way yoda speaks? Even the English translations are unnecessarily complicated.

[Charles Barkley]

I think he's practicing grammar by trying to create some complicated, albeit unnecessarily complicated sentences.

How would you say 'I am learning how to speak Japanese'/ I am learning how to (some verb action/ ie run fast, dance the tango, etc)?

[genericdave]

I think he's practicing grammar by trying to create some complicated, albeit unnecessarily complicated sentences.

You've got the right idea. I haven't been studying for very long so I'm trying to push the boundaries of my knowledge to see what I know, what I need to know, what I need to practice, etc. The problem is that I have no way of checking to make sure that the sentences I practice grammar with are saying what I think they are saying.

How would you say 'I am learning how to speak Japanese'/ I am learning how to (some verb action/ ie run fast, dance the tango, etc)?

Actually I have no clue. My first inclination would be to use どうやって　but I don't really know how to use it.

Are you trying to reproduce the way yoda speaks? Even the English translations are unnecessarily complicated.

I'll admit that they are somewhat convoluted, but I can definitely imagine a few situations where they would sound appropriate (at least in English). Try to use your imagination. And anyway, I'm not looking for critiques on style here, just simple grammar. If one of the sentences doesn't quite mean the same thing as the English sentence, tell me why. Simple as that.

[Charles Barkley]

What I would say to a person if I wanted to mean what you are saying is '標準語を勉強しています。’

To recreate the sentiment of the grammar, my thought would be something like　勉強しているのは標準語の話し方です。

I know you are wrong in sentence one, can't tell with sentence two. I am not very advanced myself, so my question above was a legitimate question to others reading the thread who are far better than I am.

[nice gaijin]

Is there something wrong with learning how construct simple sentences before getting creative? It's not a lack of imagination--directly translating phrases from English does not result in natural Japanese, and stringing simple grammar structures doesn't result in more complicated thoughts, just more complicated sentences.

[genericdave]

What I would say to a person if I wanted to mean what you are saying is '標準語を勉強しています。’

To recreate the sentiment of the grammar, my thought would be something like　勉強しているのは標準語の話し方です。

Thanks, this is really helpful. I'll dig more deeply into it later, but this opens up a few new perspectives on a couple concepts for me.

directly translating phrases from English does not result in natural Japanese, and stringing simple grammar structures doesn't result in more complicated thoughts, just more complicated sentences.

Then please be constructive and tell me what aspects of my sentences are unnatural or useless. I'm not aiming for direct translation here, just equivalence of concept.

But I really shouldn't be nitpicking your responses Nice Gaijin. I really should be more specific. Let me offer up a clear question then: One of the main points I was experimenting with was this 'What you are doing' or 'The thing you are doing' sort of construct in English. So would this sort of thing work?

I can't understand what you are saying.
僕はあなたの話しているのが分かれません。

Is this correct or incorrect? Is there a simpler / better way of saying this sort of thing?

And to phrase it from the opposite perspective: What does 'noun + の + plain form verb' do exactly? I've seen things like:

私の読んでから。
After I read it.

And I've seen it used like in the prior sentence. Any clarification would be dandy.

[Elizabeth]

What I would say to a person if I wanted to mean what you are saying is '標準語を勉強しています。’
To recreate the sentiment of the grammar, my thought would be something like　勉強しているのは標準語の話し方です。
I would probably say 標準語を話すことです。 But no matter...the original statement was, to me, clearly responding in the context of a speaker learning various aspects of different languages simultaneously. Writing/reading Spanish....Speaking Japanese.... Understanding spoken Chinese...etc.

Not that it's realistic to that extent, but not out of the realm of immagination either. For all I know, the subject/OP may have a real gift linguistically speaking...:p

[orochi]

>>僕はあなたの話しているのが分かれません。

僕はあなとの言っていることがわかりません。

言う is probably better than 話す in this instance.
こと is better than の in this instance.
わかりません is better than わかれません. (The later is almost never used.)

[genericdave]

For all I know, the subject/OP may have a real gift linguistically speaking...:p

Ha. Well I'm glad to hear that it's withing the realm of imagination (in other words I don't come off sounding like a complete idiot). Thanks for the input though, Perhaps I should consider making something more along the line of a conversation, rather than focusing on individual sentences in order to give the grammar a context.

[genericdave]

>>言う is probably better than 話す in this instance.
こと is better than の in this instance.

Thanks, this is interesting. Any follow up as to why? From what I understand 言う is more specific than 話す (somewhat along the line of 'to say' vs. 'to speak'). Would that have something to do with it? Or am I on the wrong track entirely?

こと vs. の I haven't gotten a grip on yet. Does it usually depend on what's easier to say? On the verb? Does one give off a different connotation?

I'm actually a bit surprised that I was hitting along the right lines with the あなたの話す thing. By no means did I pick this up from a textbook or a teacher. Mostly just a few random sentences I happened to come across, and a few unreliable inquiries to the edict example sentence server.

[nice gaijin]

I don't understand is simply 分かりません

There is a lot in Japanese that is understood in context. It's uncommon to specify "you," as it is usually implied by the context. If you wanted to be more specific with "I don't understand what you're saying," it would be 何を言ってるか分かりません. If you really want to specify "you," あなたが何を言ってるか分かりません, but making that distinction is unnecessary, and seems a bit rude.

I think you would benefit from studying the use of particles. For your particular question regarding の and こと, when placed after verbs, they serve to nominalize the preceding clause. Sometimes they can be used in similar sentences, but they are not always interchangeable.

[Elizabeth]

Ha. Well I'm glad to hear that it's withing the realm of imagination (in other words I don't come off sounding like a complete idiot). Thanks for the input though, Perhaps I should consider making something more along the line of a conversation, rather than focusing on individual sentences in order to give the grammar a context.Was your intent with the first sentence to distinguish Japanese from other languages and other modes of learning (This is the one I am learning to speak, others am studying for their writing, listening etc). ??

If so, the below pattern occured to me as the most natural. And yes こと "sounds" better here, too, but I don't know if that's what I've heard most of or if it is simply more formal and therefore written in things I can easily read. :-)

日本語では、話すことを習っている

[nhk9]

If so, the below pattern occured to me as the most natural. And yes こと "sounds" better here, too, but I don't know if that's what I've heard most of or if it is simply more formal and therefore written in things I can easily read. :-)

日本語では、話すことを習っている

Interesting, I haven't really came across a pattern like the one above. I think Japanese natives really like to make everything short. Thus, something like 日本語会話勉強中（です） can be seen often in blogs etc.

[orochi]

>>こと vs. の I haven't gotten a grip on yet. Does it usually depend on what's easier to say? On the verb? Does one give off a different connotation?

First we have to take a look at what こと and の are. As you seem to know, the two can be used fairly interchangeably when nominalizing verbs. There is plenty of information out there about this.

However, in your sentence, "僕はあなたの話しているのが分かれません。", it appears you were using the の here to nominalize the preceeding verb when you should not have been. The こと that I changed it to means "thing" or "idea", so 話していること (or 言っていること as I edited it) would mean "what you are saying".

[Mike Cash]

Was your intent with the first sentence to distinguish Japanese from other languages and other modes of learning (This is the one I am learning to speak, others am studying for their writing, listening etc). ??

If so, the below pattern occured to me as the most natural. And yes こと "sounds" better here, too, but I don't know if that's what I've heard most of or if it is simply more formal and therefore written in things I can easily read. :-)

日本語では、話すことを習っている

Are you sure you want that は in there?

[Elizabeth]

Are you sure you want that は in there?
No, you're saying with just reason I've never seen it like that before. :pI was only trying to distinguish Japanese from other languages...:relief:

[Mike Cash]

No, probably with just reason I've never seen it like that before. :pI was just trying to distinguish it from other languages...:relief:

In that case you could do it with just the は and leave out the で. I suppose my question could have just as easily been "Are you sure you want the で in there?

With both, it does have the contrastive element you were looking for, but the で goes from applying to 話すこと to applying to the 習っている part, indicating not that one is learning to speak in Japanese, but learning about speech with the language of instruction being Japanese....and comparing that to other subjects one is learning that are being taught in other languages.

BIANANS, YMMV

[genericdave]

Was your intent with the first sentence to distinguish Japanese from other languages and other modes of learning (This is the one I am learning to speak, others am studying for their writing, listening etc). ??

If so, the below pattern occured to me as the most natural. And yes こと "sounds" better here, too, but I don't know if that's what I've heard most of or if it is simply more formal and therefore written in things I can easily read. :-)

日本語では、話すことを習っている

The context can be whatever you want. I didn't really have a particular situation laid out in my head. Mostly I'll come up with these things when I try to say something in Japanese and find that I can't say it. So usually the original context gets lost. I like what you did here, although it lost the specificity of talking about a certain dialect of Japanese.

There is a lot in Japanese that is understood in context. It's uncommon to specify "you," as it is usually implied by the context. If you wanted to be more specific with "I don't understand what you're saying," it would be 何を言ってるか分かりません. If you really want to specify "you," あなたが何を言ってるか分かりません, but making that distinction is unnecessary, and seems a bit rude.

Ah yes, I see. With 何を言ってるか分かりません I find it interesting that the word 何 is being used in much the same way as we do in English. I had sort of figured that it would be strictly interrogative. Just to clarify though, if I had to be really specific I could say something like you showed me, or i could say something like 「彼の言っているは変です。」 or 「彼が言っていることは変です。」 right? What's the difference if there is any?

>>in your sentence, "僕はあなたの話しているのが分かれません。", it appears you were using the の here to nominalize the preceeding verb when you should not have been. The こと that I changed it to means "thing" or "idea", so 話していること (or 言っていること as I edited it) would mean "what you are saying".

Okay, this is beginning to make more sense. こと　seems to impart more of a sense of physicality to a verb, and の gives off a more general sense of just the action. I've been finding a few bits of reference on the internet pertaining to this. I just can't believe none of the books I have seem to go over this

[nice gaijin]

Just to clarify though, if I had to be really specific I could say something like you showed me, or i could say something like 「彼の言っているは変です。」 or 「彼が言っていることは変です。」 right? What's the difference if there is any?

Your first sentence is incorrect, and is why I recommend studying particles. The second one is a bit better, but in this case, it would be more correct to say 彼が言っているのは変です。

This is an important distinction between the use of の and こと. こと can used to nominalize a verb as a concept, and の can be used when talking about a single instance of an action:
宿題を出すのを忘れました。 I forgot to turn in my homework,

or to nominalize the verb itself
漢字を書くのが難しいです。 It is hard to write kanji.

[Elizabeth]

[QUOTE=nice gaijin;509062]Your first sentence is incorrect, and is why I recommend studying particles. The second one is a bit better, but in this case, it would be more correct to say 彼が言っているのは変です。


This list is a very useful, rough and ready compilation of usages to getting started with の、こと　posted by member umbaba-san last year.


留学するの（when）は来年です。
会うの（when）はいつですか？。
歌うの（who）は誰ですか？。
結婚したの（who）は彼女の兄です。
仕事をするの（when）は明日からです。
一緒に遊んだの（where）はあの公園です。
失敗するのは（why）練習不足だからだ。
返事が来るの（when）は１週間後です。
勉強するのは（where）この教室だ。
人気があるの（what）は野球です。
スポーツを始めたの（why）は健康のためです。


Sentences の can be replaced with こと.
They are always followed by verb, adjective, adverb, form to do with your emotion. and other noun.

留学すること（の）が目標だ。
会うこと（の）が楽しみです。
歌うこと（の）が好きだ。
結婚したこと（の）を後悔している。
仕事をすること（の）は面倒くさい。
一緒に遊んだこと（の）を覚えている。
返事が来ること（の）を待っています。
失敗すること（の）には慣れています。
勉強すること（の）は得意だ。
人気があること（の）はうれしい。
スポーツを始めたこと（の）を知っています。

[genericdave]

First of all, thanks Elizabeth for digging up that list. I'm not sure what's going on here though. It seems like you and Nice Gaijin have somewhat different reasonings behind the differences between こと and の. And to be completely honest I don't entirely understand your standpoint on it. It seems like you're saying that こと is more appropriate for personal feelings, but I'm really not sure.

Your first sentence is incorrect, and is why I recommend studying particles. The second one is a bit better, but in this case, it would be more correct to say 彼が言っているのは変です

Whoops. Looks like I really messed up the first sentence without realizing it. I meant to put 「彼の言っているのは変です。」. I'm mostly just interested in if I'm understanding this concept of 「彼の言っている」 as I should be. Is it correct? Is it just defining the act of speaking as his more specifically?

This is an important distinction between the use of の and こと. こと can used to nominalize a verb as a concept, and の can be used when talking about a single instance of an action:
宿題を出すのを忘れました。 I forgot to turn in my homework,

or to nominalize the verb itself
漢字を書くのが難しいです。 It is hard to write kanji.

Ah! Thank you! This sounds nice and clear. So if I get this correctly would this be right?

走っていることが難しいです
The act of running is difficult.

I chose こと because I'm talking specifically about the action, not a particular instance. But from your example above it seems like either this is wrong, or I could also use の here.

昨日（の？）走っていたのは難しかったです。
The running we did yesterday was difficult

I'm unsure about the の after 昨日 here because I've always been taught to just leave it dangling without a particle. I'm pretty sure you can throw a で on there if you please, but in this case I felt like a の would work because I'm specifically talking about the running that happened yesterday. Ergh. So many things to be cleared up.

[Elizabeth]

First of all, thanks Elizabeth for digging up that list. I'm not sure what's going on here though. It seems like you and Nice Gaijin have somewhat different reasonings behind the differences between こと and の. And to be completely honest I don't entirely understand your standpoint on it. It seems like you're saying that こと is more appropriate for personal feelings, but I'm really not sure.
What was quoted was umbaba's opinion, so it's not my standpoint at all. But
の is generally more personal, conversational and emotive than こと。The degree to which they are interchangable grammatically or in common practice varies extremely from case to case. I don't know how to make it any clearer that you are absolutely going to need to start with as few words and as simple a structure as possible until you've built up enough familiarity and understanding of the language to know what sounds natural from Japanese to English.

最初に、短い文を作り、それに単語を加えてくださいね。:cool:

昨日走るのが難しかったです。

Running yesterday was difficult.


By the way, in regard to the first studying Japanese writing example、my initial instinct was correct. It is also possible to leave off the で。

日本語では、話すことを習っているし。。。　(英語では、書くことを習っているし。。。)

[genericdave]

What was quoted was umbaba's opinion, so it's not my standpoint at all.

Oh, I figured that since you were quoting him that it was your standpoint as well.

But の is generally more personal, conversational and emotive than こと。The degree to which they are interchangable grammatically or in common practice varies extremely from case to case. I don't know how to make it any clearer that you are absolutely going to need to start with as few words and as simple a structure as possible until you've built up enough familiarity and understanding of the language to know what sounds natural from Japanese to English.

Okay, so you're saying that there is simply no universal rule as to when to use one of the other, right? Is this the kind of thing that most people would be able to understand me if I screwed this up from time to time and I would just come off sounding a bit stupid?

[nice gaijin]

Whoops. Looks like I really messed up the first sentence without realizing it. I meant to put 「彼の言っているのは変です。」. I'm mostly just interested in if I'm understanding this concept of 「彼の言っている」 as I should be. Is it correct? Is it just defining the act of speaking as his more specifically?No. You can't use the posessive の for a verb.

走っていることが難しいです
The act of running is difficult.

I chose こと because I'm talking specifically about the action, not a particular instance. But from your example above it seems like either this is wrong, or I could also use の here.
Well, こと is generally used for more abstract things, but there are other uses for it. There are specific grammar structures that call for the use of こと、 for which の cannot be substituted, and vice-versa.

の is also not bound to a single purpose, and doesn't have to refer to a single instance of an action. when I used the example 漢字を書くのが難しいです, I wasn't referring to a single act of writing kanji, but writing kanji in general.


昨日（の？）走っていたのは難しかったです。
The running we did yesterday was difficult

I'm unsure about the の after 昨日 here because I've always been taught to just leave it dangling without a particle. I'm pretty sure you can throw a で on there if you please, but in this case I felt like a の would work because I'm specifically talking about the running that happened yesterday. Ergh. So many things to be cleared up.
I don't know what you are talking about throwing particles around. You need to have a firm grasp of the basics before you can start playing with different tenses.

How are you studying? You're all over the place and I don't think I can help you by fixing sentences one at a time. You gotta crawl before you walk; what materials do you have on the basic particles は、が、を、の、に、で、 etc?

[Elizabeth]

Whoops. Looks like I really messed up the first sentence without realizing it. I meant to put 「彼の言っているのは変です。」. I'm mostly just interested in if I'm understanding this concept of 「彼の言っている」 as I should be. Is it correct? Is it just defining the act of speaking as his more specifically?

彼の言う(言っている) is fine and there is no difference in meaning or politeness or any other dimension between it and 彼が言う(言っている).


の is somewhat more common because apparently it is simply an easier speech pattern or utterance to produce (at least that was the explanation given me). :relief:

[Charles Barkley]

昨日（の？）走っていたのは難しかったです。
The running we did yesterday was difficult

I'm unsure about the の after 昨日 here because I've always been taught to just leave it dangling without a particle. I'm pretty sure you can throw a で on there if you please, but in this case I felt like a の would work because I'm specifically talking about the running that happened yesterday. Ergh. So many things to be cleared up.

I don't think の would go after 昨日; as you said, there is no reason to put anything after it. Perhaps what you are confused about is the way that の can replace が in a relative clause (a clause that decribes a noun and acts like one long adjective). For example:

経験がある。　　I have experience.
経験がある人。　　A person with experience.
経験のある人。 A person with experience.

経験のある人を求めています。 We are looking for a person with experience (an employer's position, perhaps).

At the end of a sentence, you would use が　here. But, if the same phrase becomes a relative clause, you can use either が or の｡ In the same way that の can be used to have one noun describe another, it also can replace が in adjectival phrases like the one above.

Aside from the problem with の, this sentence seems very wrong. 昨日（の？）走っていたのは難しかったです。

For one thing, running is rarely, if ever 難しい--perhaps if there are a variety of moving hurdles, it might qualify. You probably mean 大変。 Also, the 走っていたのは is ponderous.

I imagine　something like 「昨日は大変でしたね」 would be more than sufficient.

[Elizabeth]

Aside from the problem with の, this sentence seems very wrong. 昨日（の？）走っていたのは難しかったです。
For one thing, running is rarely, if ever 難しい--perhaps if there are a variety of moving hurdles, it might qualify. You probably mean 大変。 Also, the 走っていたのは is ponderous.
I imagine　something like 「昨日は大変でしたね」 would be more than sufficient.
This at least I corrected immediately, albeit on the previous page. :-) Maybe she was hobbled by a strain or sprained ankle or whatever. Until other basic errors get clarified or a context gets inserted, the particular adjective is pretty much of secondary importance.


昨日走るのが難しかったです。

Running yesterday was difficult.　

[nice gaijin]

経験がある人。　　A person without experience.
経験のある人。 A person without experience. Don't you mean "a person with experience"?


I imagine　something like 「昨日は大変でしたね」 would be more than sufficient. This is much more appropriate, and shows how contextual Japanese is. My first instinct would be simply (昨日）お疲れ様でした。

Elizabeth; I'm a bit confused by what you said in post #27. Except for relative clauses, when can の replace が? If the clause is modifying a noun it's fine, but the way you put it gave me the impression that the two particles were interchangeable...

[Elizabeth]

Elizabeth; I'm a bit confused by what you said in post #27. Except for relative clauses, when can の replace が? If the clause is modifying a noun it's fine, but the way you put it gave me the impression that the two particles were interchangeable...
They are most definately interchangeable in a subordinate or relative clause with the noun 事. It was careless on my part not to notice that didn't happen to be the sentence I was looking at. :blush:

彼の言っている事は変だ（と思います）。
彼が言っている事は変だ（と思います）。

[Charles Barkley]

Oops, yes, I originally had typed out 経験のない but changed it because it was easier for me to write an example sentence using 経験のある。 Editing the original post...

[Elizabeth]

Don't you mean "a person with experience"?


This is much more appropriate, and shows how contextual Japanese is. My first instinct would be simply (昨日）お疲れ様でした。
I would say this is too probably vague and assuming too much from the original phrase "It was difficult to run yesterday" which is a perfectly natural way of thinking in Japanese, verb included. Obviously there are circumstances the action doesn't need repeating such as being out on the track today and talking to the very same teammates that went through the very same drills together yesterday. "It's a lot better today than yesterday" or whatever would omit the obvious with the meaning still perfectly intact.

お疲れ様でした is used out of gratitude or to thank someone for their hard work and effort. It is a polite phrase to use when a stressful or wearing hassle/duty/event/job etc has been completed. I've personally never heard it used a day later or in relation to an clearly physical endurance such as a sporting relay but that could be my inexperience at work as well...:blush:

[nice gaijin]

In my experience, in school clubs and circles (my first thought when talking about running), お疲れ様 is used for practically everything. Obviously the context is what gives meaning to the vaguer expressions, but it's really not necessarily to spell everything out. I think we're getting a bit off track here though.

[genericdave]

They are most definately interchangeable in a subordinate or relative clause with the noun 事. It was careless on my part not to notice that didn't happen to be the sentence I was looking at. :blush:

彼の言っている事は変だ（と思います）。
彼が言っている事は変だ（と思います）。

Ah. This makes sense. I had actually suspected that this could be the case, but thought that maybe it was indicating something different to use の instead of が.

I don't know what you are talking about throwing particles around. You need to have a firm grasp of the basics before you can start playing with different tenses.

How are you studying? You're all over the place and I don't think I can help you by fixing sentences one at a time. You gotta crawl before you walk; what materials do you have on the basic particles は、が、を、の、に、で、 etc?

I started this thread to ask questions. Therefore I'm asking a lot of questions. I practice what I do know elsewhere, but when I venture into the realm of the unknown I have no way of checking myself. It's easy to read about what you can do in textbooks, but I find they often leave out what you can't do. It's important for me to know my boundaries and to be able to address things that most texts don't go over, but that pop up here and there in what I see and hear and read. I think it's important to ask as many questions as possible, I learn more that way.

[Elizabeth]

In my experience, in school clubs and circles (my first thought when talking about running), お疲れ様 is used for practically everything. Obviously the context is what gives meaning to the vaguer expressions, but it's really not necessarily to spell everything out. I think we're getting a bit off track here though.
Although I would say that is most certainly not genericdave's frame of reference which goes to show the importance of making full, proper sentences for beginners and learning the more unique expressions in parallel as their core grammar starts to take shape.

お疲れ様 is also used by mothers in this country taking the kids to all day Saturday Japanese classes. It's shorthand in that very limited setting but of course they still need to know how to complain to everyone else ad nauseum about what a time consuming, pain in the rear sacrifice this is for the children just to learn some stupid kanji...etc etc. :okashii: :p


I started this thread to ask questions. Therefore I'm asking a lot of questions. I practice what I do know elsewhere, but when I venture into the realm of the unknown I have no way of checking myself. It's easy to read about what you can do in textbooks, but I find they often leave out what you can't do. It's important for me to know my boundaries and to be able to address things that most texts don't go over, but that pop up here and there in what I see and hear and read. I think it's important to ask as many questions as possible, I learn more that way.
It's certainly wise to take advantage of every available resource for informal patterns or other equivalents that more conservative books are reluctant to explain in depth. In my case, it needed more than a couple years of letter writing to be able to turn が into の at the right places, never having encountered this mysterious bit of news in a general early level text. :blush:

[genericdave]

It's certainly wise to take advantage of every available resource for informal patterns or other equivalents that more conservative books are reluctant to explain in depth. In my case, it needed more than a couple years of letter writing to be able to turn が into の at the right places, never having encountered this mysterious bit of news in a general early level text. :blush:

Well lucky for me I'm not that interesting in learning exactly how to use this kind of thing correctly. I guess I'm just trying to prepare for situations where I would be faced with it. Guess this kind of thing is a bit obscure but I have seen it used (here and there) and I wanted to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting it. Thanks, you've been a great help.