The origin of Japan's so called "shame culture"

[kireikoori]

I often hear of Japanese culture described as a "shame culture" or "shame society". And often of Japan being more hiveminded than average.

Where does this concept originate from? Everything comes from somewhere.
How did Japan become this "shame society" that everyone describes it as?

[tokapi]

The Chrysanthemum and the Sword can shed some light on this subject :blush:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Benedict

[kireikoori]

The Chrysanthemum and the Sword can shed some light on this subject :blush:
Yes, I've been long aware of that book. But I'm interested in where the "shame culture" came from not who coined the term.

Also, if I'm am to read of any books about shame culture I should like it to be from a source other than that stupid Chrysanthemum and the Sword book which I detest.

Edit: My previous said things on Chrysanthemum and the Sword may have sounded a bit harsh, maybe even a bit crazy. But every time someone mentions shame society they bring up that book. I haven't read the book but considering what I know about Ruth Benedict and her book the Chrysanthemum and the Sword I'm not that impressed or interested in reading the book. I mean has she even lived in Japan?

If I'm going to read something about shame culture I would want it to be from someone who's actually lived there. For at least ten years or something too, not some four week visit or something.

[Ewok85]

I mean has she even lived in Japan?

I guess you couldn't be bothered reading what was offered to you. How about I make it easier for you:

This book is an instance of Anthropology at a Distance. Study of a culture through its literature, through newspaper clippings, through films and recordings, etc., was necessary when anthropologists aided the United States and its allies in World War II. Unable to visit Nazi Germany or Japan under Hirohito, anthropologists made use of the cultural materials produced studies at a distance. They were attempting to understand the cultural patterns that might be driving their aggression, and hoped to find possible weaknesses, or means of persuasion that had been missed.

If I'm going to read something about shame culture I would want it to be from someone who's actually lived there. For at least ten years or something too, not some four week visit or something.

I wouldn't agree with that. I would give the words of a professional anthropologist, having lived in Japan or not, greater thought that just anyone who has lived here for some time.

I know what you are trying to ask, and the concept of Japan being a "shame society" comes from its own culture. The west is often described as a "guilt society", where one internally feels guilt for their own actions. Shame is an external feeling, its what (you believe) others think of you and your actions. This works in with the "hive minded" or group feeling of Japan - you are not an individual but just part of a team working for a shared goal.

[tokapi]

I copied & pasted Cue's comment on one old thread titled Shame Culture


[What I come up with the word "shame culture" would be the concept of being concerned about appearances, worry (rather too much) about what other people think. Group harmony is deemed more important than individualism.

They say "I'd rather die than doing such an embarrassing thing.", which may sound exagerating, but I think Japanese people tend to be, or used to be extremely afraid of making mistakes in public or being different than the majority .

For instance, whenever a teacher asked a question and went "Anyone?" during the class(especially English class), hardly anyone including myself raised their hands even though they knew the answer. Why? Because you(or should I say "I"?) are afraid of making mistakes or just to speak English, or, since no one around you raises his hand, you doing so would make yourself labeled as "different from others" by the rest of the classmates.

Also, Japanese consider "causing someone a trouble" or "getting a help from others" as a shame. In my opinion, that's the one of the reasons why you use "sorry" and "excuse me" phrases a lot in Japanese conversation where you'd say "thank you" instead.

Due to the comedy boom in Japan these days, however, they are becoming a lot less afraid of being laughed or drawing people's attention, I guess. But still, shame culture does exist in Japan.

Cue]

[kireikoori]

I guess you couldn't be bothered reading what was offered to you. How about I make it easier for you:
I wouldn't agree with that. I would give the words of a professional anthropologist, having lived in Japan or not, greater thought that just anyone who has lived here for some time.
I guess you didn't bother with reading the part where I said what I know about her. The "did she ever even go to Japan?" was rhetorical.

The majority of my previous post was an argument against Anthropology at a distance.

I cannot truly learn about another country unless you've been there. There are all sort of people around, including forums like this, who try to argue with the words of people who have actually been there when they have not, on matters about Japan. And is it in any way surprising that the words of the person who actually lived in Japan are more believed?

Study of a culture through its literature, through newspaper clippings, through films and recordings, etc.,
No, no, no. Most Japan lovers who have never lived in Japan a day yet have had plenty of exposure to things like Japanese newspaper and such. And media. OMG people just eat up Jpop, Anime, Dorama and such. And yet somehow many do not pick up on this aspect of Japanese culture? STRANGE.

Heck I enjoy Japanese music and TV shows myself, but I'm only getting a limited amount of Japanese culture that way. In my lifetime I've watched and listened to more Japanese media than I have American media. But that's still not enough to write a book on. Only the notoriously obnoxious, annoying Japanophiles think that Japanese media gives anything more than very slight knowledge of Japanese culture.

[tokapi]

Cue is a native Japanese not Japanophile White-geek :blush:

[tokapi]

Most Japan lovers who have never lived in Japan a day yet have had :okashii::bluush:



1. My definition of Japanophile is simple, someone who has a very strong interest in Japan, maybe something particular about the culture like music, martial arts, food, etc. Being a Japanophile can be positive and harmless or it can border on obsessive or arrogant behaviour. You guys have a word for that, otaku. I've unfortunately met many Japan otakus (gaijins) who are obsessed with living in Japan to the point where it's kind of creepy. :(

Here is myspace link to the entire conversation between a Japanese woman & Canadian-born Korean guy who was an English teacher @ NOVA in Japan.

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=93310621&blogID=258959578&Mytoken=8BB1D142-A67F-46D3-BCAA31D61250533C32080365

[kireikoori]

Fascinating. I don't remember ever running into this "cue" member here.

So while here in the US where a statement like "you care too much what others think of you" in Japan it would be more common to hear "you don't care enough about what others think of you"? This is how it would be?

This is kind of scary to me. Because If I cared as much about what people think as it's alleged that Japanese people do, I wouldn't like Japan, wouldn't have the desire to travel there, wouldn't listen to Japanese music or entertain myself with any other form of Japanese media.

That blog is close. But not exactly correct. Her second definition was fetish. The first one is right, there are definitely two types. Or allegedly two types I don't have any experience of running into this second type personally.

1) love of Japan, both Japanese traditional and modern culture, Japanese people in general.
2) Delusional thinking that Japan is a perfect paradise. Doesn't have much experience with Japan except through anime. Yet still claims to be a Japan know-it-all. That's how the stereotype goes at least. Never ran into this Japanophile stereotype nor the emo stereotype, so I dunno whether either are true or just complete BS.

[tokapi]

Post#22

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24409

[tokapi]

That blog is close.



Nope .... Makiko's HP & Profile http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=93310621

[Dutch Baka]

Fascinating. I don't remember ever running into this "cue" member here.

In the navigation bar above this thread there you can see a link saying Members list, when you click on that you can search for the member "Cue".

http://www.jref.com/forum/member.php?u=22332

[kireikoori]

Nope .... Makiko's HP & Profile http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=93310621
Nope to what?
I don't think knew what I was talking about.

[tokapi]

I don't think knew what I was talking about.



No problem .... Makiko can answer your query in her own words :-)

From the dangerous type of Japanophiles' perception, they are pleased with being idolized or popular in Japan or Japan oriented Internet sites like mixi because there are less foreigners and white people worshipping.

They will probably feed their ego in Japan or J-oriented Internet sites. They might be obsessed with Japanese girls because of inferiority complex. :bluush:

[kireikoori]

No problem .... Makiko can answer your query in her own words :-)
ARRRGH. There's nothing I said that you should have needed to disagree with.
And must you use those vapid emoticons in every single post you make?

STOP USING THEM SO MUCH PLEASE IT'S IRRITATING THE HECK OUT OF ME.

I said Cue was Japanese, I didn't disagree. When I said the blog was close, but not exactly correct. I didn't say the profile wasn't really. I have no doubt that person is a Japanese living in Japan and a perfectly real myspace account.

The slang usage for Japanophile is not Japanese. And completely different from the term shinnichiha. I have alot more experience with the term than she does. The slang usage of the term is almost SOLEY online. It originated from sites like 4chan, Something Awful and Urbandictionary.

Anyway, this topic is not about the slang usage of Japanophile or terms like Wapanese and Weeaboo. Let's not further get off topic.

[tokapi]

Also, if I'm am to read of any books about shame culture I should like it to be from a source other than that stupid Chrysanthemum and the Sword book which I detest.

But every time someone mentions shame society they bring up that book. I haven't read the book but considering what I know about Ruth Benedict and her book the Chrysanthemum and the Sword I'm not that impressed or interested in reading the book.



:bluush: ... WTF,someone could detest a book he or she never read :(

Because it's written by a White woman who could articulately analyzed in-depth cultural traits of Japanese people,she accurately defined Japanese culture exactly like it is ... SHAME CULTURE ... .By the way,Chrysanthemum and the Sword took Japan by storm in the 1950's.

Dude,we know who's ***** on this subject :blush:

[kireikoori]

:bluush: ... WTF,someone could detest a book he or she never read :(
There's plenty of books I detest but have never read. You say it like it is a strange thing.
I'm naturally skeptical of any book written about a culture from someone who has never traveled there.

Because it's written by a White woman who could articulately analyzed in-depth cultural traits of Japanese people
Trying to make this a racial issue are we? How silly. The problem is that she never set foot in Japan.

she accurately defined Japanese culture exactly like it is ... SHAME CULTURE
I'm still doubtful. It seems to me that both Japan and other places have plenty of shame.
I certainly won't refuse to read a book that tries to say Japan is a shame culture though. But I don't want to read the Ruth Benedict book.
... .By the way,Chrysanthemum and the Sword took Japan by storm in the 1950's.

I'd like to see proof of this.

[tokapi]

I'm still doubtful.



ignorance is bliss .... :p

[Ewok85]

The problem is that she never set foot in Japan.

She was an anthropology expert, what are you? Have you spent sufficient time in Japan (or watching anime) to have a better rebuttal than "she never went so she doesn't know", or is that all you have?

[tokapi]

She was an anthropology expert, what are you ?



General Douglas MacArthur's WW2 famous quote during the Pacific War " .... mentality of a 12 year-old ... ",only this line implies here :bluush:

[kireikoori]

She was an anthropology expert
Anthropology expert or not, she never set foot in Japan, and that's what counts.

[Ewok85]

Anthropology expert or not, she never set foot in Japan, and that's what counts.

By that same thinking, you can't talk anthropology because you have never studied it.

You have a weak argument - you are not arguing that she is wrong and giving an example or proof of why her views are fundamentally incorrect, you are simply saying that she isn't qualified to talk about this, which ironically disqualifies you as well.

Instead of arguing that she is wrong because she never went to Japan, which is a weak point giving her qualifications and the fact she wasn't able to go how much she wanted to, how about you argue why Japan ISN'T a shame society? Fact is that her views made 60 years ago still hold water and any of us who live in japan can give you examples as to why Japan is a shame society, rather than a guilt society.

[Goldiegirl]

Ok, I don't know much about this subject, however I have my own experience with shame or guilt while in Japan. If I do something that is perhaps not right or correct my husband will make this kind of sucking noise that instantly has me tucking my head in my neck like a turtle and I feel immediately that I have done something wrong. His boss's wife has made that same noise with me and it too has the exact same affect. What's with that noise? It works really well on me! :)

[Mars Man]

Interesting point there Goldiegirl san. I have always interpreted that mannerism in one of two ways--one, showing that one is considering a matter, or two, that one is signifying that a matter may need further thought or reflection.

The second one is somewhat close to, if not, by some, outright indication of ones thinking something or someone is in the wrong on a matter or action.

At the same time, it seems to simply become a habit with some, and thus carries no real import any longer.

[Goldiegirl]

Yeah, sounds about right....especially the 2nd one for me and the situations I get into. I just can't believe how well it works on me. My Mom is the only other person who can make me feel guily like that but she just gave me "the look"... Somehow that sound just hits me instantly.

[kireikoori]

By that same thinking, you can't talk anthropology because you have never studied it.

You have a weak argument - you are not arguing that she is wrong and giving an example or proof of why her views are fundamentally incorrect, you are simply saying that she isn't qualified to talk about this, which ironically disqualifies you as well.
You don't understand my argument. Everyone has plenty of room to analyze and talk about cultures. But I would prefer to read books, published books about the issue of Japan from people who have been there.

Anthropology at a distance is something any dorama, anime, jpop or jrock fan can do. Judging a country from it's media isn't as good as actually going there. I'm not doubt the possibility that Japan is a shame culture, but I'm going to be extremely skeptical of a source like Ruth Benedict, who's never set foot in Japan.

how about you argue why Japan ISN'T a shame society? Fact is that her views made 60 years ago still hold water and any of us who live in japan can give you examples as to why Japan is a shame society, rather than a guilt society.
Ok then. I'm a pretty ok guy I guess. Except for the fact there's people in the world I hold such a heavy grudge against that I wouldn't mind killing. I'm a moral relativist who doesn't believe killing is wrong. And certainly not a Christian. And there are other laws that are tempting to break. What keeps me from doing the acts?

One, the consequences, just not worth the risk of jail or prison time. Two, SHAME. I may not view killing as a universally wrong thing. I obviously wouldn't want my parents or anyone else I care about killed, but I still don't believe in morals. There's a difference between objecting to someone you care about being killed and believing killing is wrong. *ehem* Anyway not everyone is a moral relativist like me. Breaking the law of any sort comes with a lot of shame. I care what others think. I especially wouldn't want people I care about to think badly of me.

If someone makes me angry enough and I punch them in the face, that's assault. I would not feel the least bit guilty for maiming a person who incurred my wrath. I would however feel shame for the fact my actions would be deemed unacceptable by society.

It seems to me that Japan and the US have plenty of both guilt and shame and that I'm not some anomaly.

[diceke]

It seems to me that Japan and the US have plenty of both guilt and shame and that I'm not some anomaly.

Shame culture in the west?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociophobia

Generalized social anxiety disorder typically involves a persistent, intense, and chronic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_%28medicine%29) fear of being judged by others and of potentially being embarrassed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embarrassed) or humiliated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humiliated) by their own actions. These fears can be triggered by perceived or actual scrutiny by others. While the fear of social interaction may be recognized by the person as excessive or unreasonable, considerable difficulty can be encountered overcoming it. Approximately 13.3% of the general population may meet criteria for social anxiety disorder at some point in their lifetime, according to the highest survey estimate, with the male to female ratio being 1:1.5 respectively.

Shame is a device to gain control over people's action in the West, many punishments are deliberately designed to cause humiliation?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarring_and_feathering

[caster51]

Japan's shame culture
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24409

[gaijinalways]

Depends on the context, I guess.

[Goldiegirl]

Hasn't shame been a part of every culture? Whether you were flogged with a cat o' nine tails, beat with a bamboo switch, tarred and feathered, branded or made to wear a piece of clothing to set yourself apart, cutting off a body part like an ear or hand or finger...all of these things have been done to show that a person has done something considered wrong in their society and all of them were done to make a person feel shame. So what's the big deal about where Japanese shame culture came from? Doesn't every culture have it? I know recently in the USA they are making known pedophiles post "no candy here" signs for Trick or Treat. The pedophiles of course are complaining that these signs set them apart and cast further shame or guilt on them. Personally I want people to feel shame. I think in todays age too many people have too many excuses on their poor behaviour Sometimes it really is just our own poor choosing, our own lack of moral character that we do terrible things and excpect to be let off without shame or guilt. When my mom was growing up to have a child out of wedlock brought shame upon on your whole family, now women routinely have 2-3 kids with 2-3 different Dads and no one bats an eye....

[kireikoori]

Shame culture in the west?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociophobia
You're equating shame culture with sociophobia? Is it really that extreme?

[diceke]

You're equating shame culture with sociophobia? Is it really that extreme?
Psychiatrists say that shame gives rise to an array of disorders. The West has sociophobia, Japan has this culture specific syndrome called taijin kyofusho (anthropophobia, which is also a kind of social anxiety), and shame tends to manifest itself differently in different cultures. In the West, the focus of fear is on being harshly judged by others, whereas in Japan the expression of shame is through the fear of offending other people.

Or so I heard. :blush:

[diceke]

I know recently in the USA they are making known pedophiles post "no candy here" signs for Trick or Treat. The pedophiles of course are complaining that these signs set them apart and cast further shame or guilt on them. Personally I want people to feel shame.

The shaming effect of sex offender registration in the US is so harsh. Your name, photo, and other data are made availabe to the public via the internet for the rest of your life.

Guilt, you can alleviate it by punishment, but shame is there forever, and ever, and ever!:souka:

[Goldiegirl]

I like that shame is forever. Pedophiles are always repeat offenders. It's the nature of their sickness. They can never be cured. The best they can hope for is to stay away and have no contact with children. I think the world would be a better place if people did feel shame for their actions. We want everyone to always have high self esteem and to always feel good, well guess what, that isn't working.

[diceke]

I like that shame is forever. Pedophiles are always repeat offenders. It's the nature of their sickness. They can never be cured. The best they can hope for is to stay away and have no contact with children.
Sometimes, the "pedophile"(?) is like a 17 year-old who had consensual sex with a 15-year-old, and then convicted of sex offense. Maybe it's not pedophilia at all, but shame for life long is pretty harsh.

Back on topic, I think that the characterization of one society as shame-based and another society as "guilt"-based is like saying that one is pagan and another is Christian; or one is secular, another is religious. Either way, shame or guilt, it's all human.

[gaijinalways]

I think in that case the charge would be statutory rape (rape of a minor or under age person regardless of whether the minor consented or not) rather than pedophilia. Though to be honest, I'm not sure that a 17 year old and a 15 year old are that different (the 15 year old girl would probably be more mature!).

[Han Chan]

She was an anthropology expert, what are you? Have you spent sufficient time in Japan (or watching anime) to have a better rebuttal than "she never went so she doesn't know", or is that all you have?
I did read the book and I am not impressed!

The Chrysanthemum and the Sword is not based on anthropological fieldwork, which is at the heart of anthropology as a science, and the book is now generally not highly regarded among anthropologists. Unfortunately it seems like people again and again pick this book up, and help reproduce its ethnocentric and stereotypical descriptions.

Shame is an element in japanese culture, particularly traditional male warrior code of honor, but to call it a shame culture is strange. Like in many other cultures people do not like loosing face, but to claim that japanese resort to harikiri when they loose honor, is as relevant as claiming that scandinavians today live in a viking culture. It is a distortion which only people who actually do not know contemporary Japan can believe in.

My recommendation to everyone who wants to understand Japan and japanese people is to avoid all those books which tries to describe japanese as strange exotic aliens. The best thing is to base your opinion on your own firsthand observations and question everyone who comes up with blanket statements and generalisations.

I am anthropologist, and I based my ressearch on empirical opservations from fieldwork. I did not conduct fieldwork in Japan, but I have been married to a japanes for nine years and so far I spend 8 months in the country with my japanese family and friends.

[Goldiegirl]

It was oral sex between 2 consenting minors and the young man was just released from prison after spending 2 1/2 years there. Georgia is in the process of rewritting the law the says it's ok for minors to have sex. He was not convicted of being a pedophile. Anyway, I still think I would prefer to live with people who can feel shame or guilt for their behaviour.

[diceke]

Sometimes, the "pedophile"(?) is like a 17 year-old who had consensual sex with a 15-year-old, and then convicted of sex offense. Maybe it's not pedophilia at all, but shame for life long is pretty harsh.

A teen having oral sex with a consenting 15 yr old is child molestation. It's here::blush:
Wilson was convicted of aggravated child molestation following a 2003 New Year's Eve party in a hotel room where he was videotaped having oral sex with a 15-year-old girl.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071027/ap_on_re_us/teen_sex_case

The Chrysanthemum and the Sword is not based on anthropological fieldwork, which is at the heart of anthropology as a science, and the book is now generally not highly regarded among anthropologists. Unfortunately it seems like people again and again pick this book up, and help reproduce its ethnocentric and stereotypical descriptions.

I just bought the book today. Umm. Let's see...:souka:

[gaijinalways]

I think it shouldn't be, and as Goldie said, he was released.