the reason japanese are shocked we can learn kanji

[pugtm]

well i was sitting around reading a book and a thought about this came to me. maybe its not because they are arrogant but because Americans are. lets face it japan gets a lot of attention from America, but American travelers are pretty well known for being a little arrogant when it comes time to travel and for receiving services in english. so i think it may be an American stereotype playing out and not necessarily a Japanese ethnocentric behavior.
what do you guys think

[nice gaijin]

either way we have to embrace a stereotype?

[bakaKanadajin]

I can kind of see your reasoning. But even if we assume that Americans don't commonly pursue arts and languages as hobbies or they at least don't prepare well for travel and expect everything up front in English, we still have to assume the Japanese subscribe to this stereotype and don't give the day to day Americans they meet a chance to prove them wrong.

I maintain that the reason why a Japanese reading/speaking gaijin is so interesting to them is because they mistakenly but understandably assume no one cares to learn Japanese. They don't see themselves as world proliferators of culture, maybe technology but Japanese is not a huge export in the same way English is. As you point out, the average Japanese person would have no reason to think their culture is so popular and enjoys a small cult following abroad, let alone a community of actively interested learners and studiers. But I wouldn't extend that sentiment to include any kind of inability or unwillingness.

[Derfel]

If i understand it well the situation is very polar, i mean, from what i read on these forums, they subconsciously look down upon foreign culture (of course not every single Japanese person), yet they are more than interested in it, and they're glad to see anyone struggling with their language, and learning their ways. Is this assumption true? Just because its a bit paradox.

[pugtm]

either way we have to embrace a stereotype?
well the reason generalizations are called that is because they are generally true. which may be unfair to the minority who don't fit them but still fit the majority of cases.
bakakanadajins point though is interesting but im not 100% about it. Japan's greatest export is its culture and i think the Japanese would probably be aware of it. and even if not why the surprise if Americans do know kanji unless Americans give forth a reason for them to be surprised? in other words why would they think that if the Americans gave them no reason to?
as for Derfel point do we have a japanese native on this forum who could give us some insight?

[Mike Cash]

So you're sitting in Plano, Texas ruminating on "the reason japanese are shocked we can learn kanji".......

I'm sitting here surrounded by over 120 million of them and wondering where the hell you came up with that.

[Nall-ohki]

I put forth two explinations:

1. The fact that it IS quite rare.
Even given the number of foreigners in Japan, which are rare, the number who can effectively use kanji are some portion of them. Even if this portion is approaching 50% (which I would GUESS it's not, but feel free to prove me wrong), a there are few foreigners who can utilize them.

2. Availability Bias ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic )
Given that the average Japanese person does not interact with foreigners on a regular basis (except with the possibility of eikaiwa, which I'll come to later), they are not likely to know that this person uses Japanese, much less kanji. Even if they do come into contact with them, there is a good chance that the subject of kanji never comes up. The absence of counter information acts as confrimation towards their already existing bias.
Given also, that the majority of Japanese only think of those with non-asian features when they think foreigner, their bias is confirmed every time they see someone speaking another language.

Given time, and a lot more integration, and this bias will go away considerably.

[pugtm]

So you're sitting in Plano, Texas ruminating on "the reason japanese are shocked we can learn kanji".......

I'm sitting here surrounded by over 120 million of them and wondering where the hell you came up with that.
other posts on this forum that said that they were shocked. i wasn't trying to be offensive to them.

[Goldiegirl]

The only place you need to speak Japanese is in Japan. It's not a very universal language. Most Americans aren't going to take the time to learn it because there's not a big advantage to speak it. On the other hand, Spanish will increase your opportunities by a much greater percentage than Japanese. It's nothing against the language, it's the reality of it...

[epigene]

To this day, I'm still surprised, though pleasantly, by any foreigner trying to master the Japanese language and hold proficient Japanese speakers (provided they learned it the hard way--not growing up in a Japanese-speaking environment) in awe. Despite all the talk in the news about how much Japanese culture and language have become fashionable, I've never encountered good Japanese-speaking foreigners "in person" in my entire life--probably because I don't work at an office in central Tokyo any longer...

JRef is unique in the high concentration of Japanese learners and speakers--unheard of when you're just an ordinary Japanese woman living every day within normal scope of activity and no access to a forum like this. This place makes Japanese language study appear commonplace, but that's not true in real life in Japan.

Notwithstanding my experience here, I was still impressed by the Nova teacher who took on an NHK interview in Japanese last night... :relief:

[Glenski]

Being arrogant does not mean being stupid or unable to learn.
Americans are not the only foreigners here.
Japanese are not "happy" when others can't learn kanji. They understand the complexities of learning it themselves. They need to learn about 2000 just to graduate high school, which means they took 12 years to study and know it is only a rote memorization process.

IMO, Japanese are surprised when foreigners learn kanji (writing it and reading it) just because they know how hard it is, and how different it is from most other languages. There is virtually no system to memorize the stroke order or the ON and KUN readings. You just have to memorize it all.

Plus, if you want to harp on Americans, I would bet that few Japanese realize how little we Americans actually study foreign languages because of our geographic isolation from the rest of the world and the domination (not arrogance) of English in science and business worldwide.

Goldiegirl wrote:
The only place you need to speak Japanese is in Japan. Well, there's always Hawaii, too. Many Japanese love going there because of the shopping, but they also find that they hardly need to use a word of English there!

[tokapi]

Japan's greatest export is its culture and i think the Japanese would probably be aware of it.



The fact is otherwise,Japan has always been an importer of foreign cultures.Nope,it's Japanese who are puzzled by foreign people's interest in their Japanized traditional Chinese & modern European cultures.:souka:

[diceke]

The reason Japanese are shocked? Like when you get shocked that chimpanzees can learn English. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4_sxLwmZbw):blush:

[pugtm]

Plus, if you want to harp on Americans, I would bet that few Japanese realize how little we Americans actually study foreign languages because of our geographic isolation from the rest of the world and the domination (not arrogance) of English in science and business worldwide.
Goldiegirl wrote:
don't get me wrong im not an america basher by any means i live here and its a pleasant place to live, im just saying that it has some flaws one of which is that americans are somewhat arrogant when abroad.

[orochi]

I think that when Japanese people appear to be shocked that you can read kanji or speak Japanese, they are just pretending. They are trying to flatter and encourage you.

[Mike Cash]

There's a huge difference between "shocked" and "pleasantly surprised".

Also, a huge difference between "can" and "do".

[pugtm]

alright that makes sense i think

[kireikoori]

Funny how some people seem offended by that fact a Japanese might be surprised we know any kanji. WTF is up with that?

[MadamePapillon]

Funny how some people seem offended by that fact a Japanese might be surprised we know any kanji. WTF is up with that?

Because as mighty westerners we feel the world should know and fear our vast intellectual prowess. 'Tis nothing to learn a mere few thousand kanji/hirigana/katakana. Damn those japanese for assuming they have a language that would be difficult for our immense brains to handle.....the sheer arrogance of it all. :gun: ARG!

[Ewok85]

I'm still surprised when I meet people who have lived in Japan longer than I've been alive (which isn't that hard) and do not read kanji, or still have conversational Japanese. I suppose for many people this is all they need, so in a way it makes sense, but I would have thought it to be far less stressful to bite the bullet and hit the books for a year or two.

[Goldiegirl]

I agree with you Ewok85. I didn't want to learn Japanese written or spoken, but now I have changed my opinion 100%. I can't be truly close with friends and family here without knowing the language. I feel honored that the people around me all speak some English or are in classes to learn. I want to show them the same respect they show me. One of my husbands boss's daughters had dropped out of her private English class and now after meeting me she is back in class and even ventured to America. She said that I had showed her so much encouragment, she wanted to show me that she appreciated me! She is so sweet. I need to do the same for her.

[Glenski]

Ewok,
This may sound like an excuse instead of a reason for some people, but there are indeed semi-valid reasons.

1) They are just too excited about sightseeing and immersing themselves in entertainment.

2) They live in areas where only a little Japanese is truly needed.

3) They suddenly find themselves tied to a family and have little time.

[Dutch Baka]

I think the same goes for eating with chopsticks, knowing Kansai ben, and knowing who Onpapie is.

[epigene]

I think the same goes for eating with chopsticks, knowing Kansai ben, and knowing who Onpapie is.
My apologies for going off-topic, but what is Onpapie or whatever and what is that Oppappie on your avatar? :relief:
(I'm not kidding!)

[Dutch Baka]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshio_Kojima

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/773718/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcYYL_JBFRc

There are a lot of nice video's of him, but I just can't find them right now....

[bakaKanadajin]

I'm still surprised when I meet people who have lived in Japan longer than I've been alive (which isn't that hard) and do not read kanji, or still have conversational Japanese.

Ewok's 21 years old. I can't imagine anyone living in a foreign country for that long and not being able to muster some rudimentary command of the written and spoken language. Even after a half of that time I think most people could pick up a fair amount. At any rate I think the assumption might be that most foreigners are just passing through on teaching contracts so anyone who does know the language is probably assumed to have picked it up all within a very short time span, another reason why they may seem surprised.

[diceke]

Even Ai-chan the Chimpanzee can learn kanji, why can't you?
http://www.pri.kyoto-u.ac.jp/ai/video/video_library/index.html:p

[alantin]

I was nine when I started my English classes in school in a country where the native language is *very* different from English. I'm now 22 and for the first ten years of my time with the language, I didn't encounter any foreigners. Today I take classes, read books, interact with people in English every day.
When you have ten years, if you do anything at all for the language (take mediocre classes, read books, chat in the web), you will learn it!

Knowing this; it wouldn't be exaggeration at all to say that in ten years, keeping this pace of studying, I'll be using Japanese in near native level. Sooner if I get to study and work in Japan in the future.

Now I have studied it for about three and half years in a completely non-Japanese environment and spent three months in Japan, during which I improved immensely!

Not learning the language in ten years in the environment it is used, requires complete, utter disregard of it!

[misa.j]

I think it's a form of compliment. The way they show their admirations to the foreigners who have the skills as advanced as mastering Kanji.

I also note that the Japanese are not the best students when it comes to learning foreign languages, which might explain why they have such strong reactions when they encounter anyone who has a high proficiency of a non-native language.

[alantin]

I agree with you that the vast majority of the japanese aren't great with foreign languages, but I think that's because their methods suck rather than because they are bad students.. Many people can read quite complex English sentences but they just aren't taught to use use the language to interact with people.

I have met a Japanese person in Finland who spoke English, Chinese, French and Finnish! Apparently her methods didn't suck..

[pugtm]

Kansai ben? what exactly is that? nvm ill google it

[alantin]

It's kansai-ben when わからない　becomes わからへん ! lol

It the fun sounding dialect they speak in the kansai area (roughly Kyoto, Osaka and the surroundings. 関西 as opposed to 関東)

I answered anyway! ^^

[Glenski]

I think it's a form of compliment. The way they show their admirations to the foreigners who have the skills as advanced as mastering Kanji.
Then why is it that when someone has finally mastered (or nearly so) the language, many Japanese colleagues and co-workers stop talking around them? What secrets have they previously been saying in front of someone's back (so to speak) that they now find necessary to keep silent about? Compliment, indeed!

[orochi]

>Then why is it that when someone has finally mastered (or nearly so) the language, many Japanese colleagues and co-workers stop talking around them?

This sounds like a personal issue.

[alantin]

Actually, I know about similar experiences!

Might some people just unconsciously find it weird that a foreigner can understand their language. Way back, I remember when foreigners spoke my language, I thought that they somehow still wouldn't understand it. And I was surprised when they did! We have many refugees here and I'm still occasionally shocked when I hear one of those asian looking girls that were raised here in my town speak perfect Finnish without any kind of foreign accent!
Of course I'm used to hearing all kinds of people speak all kinds of languages by now but I don't think most Japanese are..

[Derfel]

Well in my opinion its not always their methods, but simply, there aren't that many foreigners, so basically, to be able to maintain quality language education you need the native speakers to teach that language, because you see a person taught by a native speaker is good, he speaks the language well, but sometimes, even he makes mistakes, and he teaches those mistakes to the "third" generation, also this third generations develops its mistakes, and they teach it to the fourth, and there you go, its screwed already, but on the other hand, not many people learn Japanese in the world, so teaching Japanese people as a native speaker becomes quite an obstacle, this further amplifies this "effect".

[FrustratedDave]

To this day, I'm still surprised, though pleasantly, by any foreigner trying to master the Japanese language and hold proficient Japanese speakers (provided they learned it the hard way--not growing up in a Japanese-speaking environment) in awe. Despite all the talk in the news about how much Japanese culture and language have become fashionable, I've never encountered good Japanese-speaking foreigners "in person" in my entire life--probably because I don't work at an office in central Tokyo any longer...

Give me a call and we will see if we can change that epigene? :relief: Forgive the kansai hougen though!:p

I'm still surprised when I meet people who have lived in Japan longer than I've been alive (which isn't that hard) and do not read kanji, or still have conversational Japanese. I suppose for many people this is all they need, so in a way it makes sense, but I would have thought it to be far less stressful to bite the bullet and hit the books for a year or two.


Its the nature of the beast, if there is no need to learn it, then why bother. On the other hand ,if the neccesity to speak Japanese coincides with making a living, then you have no choice but to learn it.

My apologies for going off-topic, but what is Onpapie or whatever and what is that Oppappie on your avatar? :relief:
(I'm not kidding!)
My little boy loves him and copies him all the time!

[Mike Cash]

Then why is it that when someone has finally mastered (or nearly so) the language, many Japanese colleagues and co-workers stop talking around them? What secrets have they previously been saying in front of someone's back (so to speak) that they now find necessary to keep silent about? Compliment, indeed!

The only time I've experienced anything like that was one time when working in a small English school and sitting in the "salon" (like Nova's "voice room"). One student I met for the first time started engaging in what seemed to be her habit of offering in Japanese to the other students her frank and uninhibited observations about the foreign staff. Another student gave the "Ix-nay! Ix-nay! He can understand you!"

My Japanese coworkers don't stop talking around me. They generally have sufficient other things to talk about that my presence doesn't deprive them of all conversational material.

I assume that they talk about me behind my back....just the same as most of the human race talks about others behind their backs. Goodness knows I've done my share of engaging in sordid gossip with Japanese coworkers about whichever one happened not to be there at the time.

[Derfel]

Well yeah, i know people tend to talk about each other behind each other's back, but than again, it must feel much worse when you expect them to do that, and your assumptions are right about it.

[diceke]

Then why is it that when someone has finally mastered (or nearly so) the language, many Japanese colleagues and co-workers stop talking around them? What secrets have they previously been saying in front of someone's back (so to speak) that they now find necessary to keep silent about? Compliment, indeed!
What are you talking about? Is misa.j your colleague? Sounds as if you are laying the blame on the wrong person.:blush:

[scorpion da black]

is it weird for foreigners to learn kanji??
i think it is easy and fun...in two months i memorized 300 kanji ....i think Japanese people think of their own language as hard and would be amazed when some one else learns it ...

i think my own language is hard, even i cant figure it all out, but i see a lot of foreigners learning it

[Glenski]

What are you talking about? Is misa.j your colleague? Sounds as if you are laying the blame on the wrong person.:blush:
I don't know misa.j and the issue here is the fact that when a foreigner learns enough kanji or spoken Japanese, many times he/she finds out that people around him/her are not speaking as much. The assumption is that they were saying things before that they knew he/she could not understand. Now, that he/she can, they stop talking so much.

Are the Japanese that afraid of such a fluent foreigner's opinions or reactions? What could they possibly be saying that they would feel the need to shut up because the foreigner can understand them?

Call it a "personal issue" if you will, and to some degree it is, but this phenomenon does happen.

[kireikoori]

is it weird for foreigners to learn kanji??
Not weird, just unusual. Wait....there's a difference between weird and unusual right?

[-Rudel-]

Sonna no kankeinai! I love doing this in public...the nationals just go crazy....lol

[scorpion da black]

Not weird, just unusual. Wait....there's a difference between weird and unusual right?

no i think unusual and weird are almost the same word :p

so that makes us weird?? coz many of us here learn kanji you know....:souka:

[orochi]

Nothing wrong with learning kanji. Anybody who thinks so is ignorant.