Dutch parliament demands Japanese compensation for "comfort women"

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Dutch parliament demands Japanese compensation for "comfort women"



http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-11/21/content_7119543.htm
2007-11-21 11:07:12


I couldn't believe my eyes when I received this news from a friend in Canada.
For the first time in 62 years I am proud of a Dutch government!

I like to know what you think of this news!

[A ke bono kane kotto]

Funny you should find this on a Chinese website ! I googled it and all the results were from other Chinese websites... Suspicious...

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

It was also on the website of the Tweede Kamer ( House of Lower Parliament):


Motie-Van Baalen inzake erkenning lot troostmeisjes unaniem door Kamer aanvaard

De Kamer heeft vanmiddag, dinsdag 20 november 2007, met algemene stemmen de Motie-Van Baalen aanvaard. Deze motie eist van Japan dat dit land het lot van de troostmeisjes, die tijdens de Japanse bezetting van, ondermeer, toenmalig Nederlandsch-Indië, tot prostitutie werden gedwongen, volmondig erkent.

De Kamer wil dat de Japanse regering de troostmeisjes excuses en een directe vorm van compensatie voor het aangedane leed aanbiedt. De Japanse regering dient er voorts voor te zorgen dat de Japanse oorlogsmisdaden, waaronder het lot van de troostmeisjes, op objectieve wijze in de Japanse schoolboeken worden vermeld.

De Nederlandse regering heeft bij monde van minister Verhagen van Buitenlandse Zaken, de motie-Van Baalen omarmd. Zij zal er bij de Japanse regering met klem op aandringen aan de in de motie gestelde voorwaarden te voldoen.

Informatie uit de Tweede Kamer gecombineerd met achtergronddossiers en het laatste politieke nieuws.
Informatie ter oriëntatie op een bezoek, uitleg over hoe wetten tot stand komen en een rondgang door de geschiedenis van de Staten-Generaal.
================================================== =============

The Chinese in Brussels translated it all very well.

[pipokun]

The San Francisco treaty and bilateral treaties settled all disputes.

The parliament comes to know it will boomerang them, for it was just four years ago when the Dutch foreign minister apologised the colonial rule.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hello Pipokun,

Each time you telling me that the Dutch had a colonial rule. Of course you are right!
So did Japan, North and South Korea and Taiwan.

The Dutch foreign minister Ben Bot aplogised in 2005 and in 2008 the president of Indonesia will visit Holland in order to rebuild a friendship between the two countries.
This has nothing to do with Japan.

The San Francisco Treaty is a farce! America was very scared that Japan would turn into a Communistic country. America made Japan a so called democratic country.

[pipokun]

Did the US demand the compensation like your government?

Japan did compensate for what we did to your people, though I don't know how your government spend it. If they would have spent it for rebuilding the nation and kept it secret to the public for many years like the South Korean govenment, I understand what you feel.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Pipokun, You ask me if the US demands a compensation from Japan just like the Netherlands did yesterday?

Why should they, the Japanese governments have protected America against the Communism. The San Francisco Treaty was there to protect Japan economical.
And maybe also because Japan suffered horribly from the two A bombs. Fact is that the Kempeitai didn't reach the American ground.

Now the Dutch government!! Just before my husband and I immigrated to South Africa in 1956, I received almost 400 guilders from Japan. I was poor, so for me this was a fontune in those days. That was not even € 200 per person. A compensation for all the horrible sufferings and illnes I had to go through during the Japanese occupation? A compensation for killing my father by the Kempeitai?

Maybe Japanese money has been used by the first governments after the war to rebuild Holland. That is very possible!
But how much did Japan plan to give us, me? Maybe € 400 each?

Shame on the San Francisco Treaty, because Japan was not poor at all after WWII.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

Did the US demand the compensation like your government?
Japan did compensate for what we did to your people, though I don't know how your government spend it.

I heard a story of an Italian guy who lended some books to a Dutch friend who worked in Indonesia at the time of the war. The books were burnt by the Japanese soldiers. Who will pay for that, eh ? :p

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

An answer is simple.
The Dutch government pays money of his loss.
Japan already hands those money to the Dutch government.
He proves that his book was baked,
Afterwards,
He receives money of damage from the Dutch government.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hiroyuki N,

Japanese soldiers burned some books during WWII in Indonesia.
The books were not from a Dutchman but actualy from an Italian ( in those days a friend from Japan).

In 1956/57 Japan paid some "money of damage" as you call it. From that money the Dutch government must pay the Italian, because Japanese soldiers burnt his books??

Very funny!

[pipokun]

http://www.awf.or.jp/e3/netherlands-00.html
Probably I asked you the similar question, but do you still think Japan did nothing to the victims in your country?
If Dutch lawmakers also think the treaties are farce like you said, why don't you abolish it?

And if possible, please tell me if all lawmakers, 150, voted the resolution? (This question is just out of curiosity, for the US case was just 10 members mean "unanimous". It is true in a way, but...)

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Pipokun,

Of course, Japan paid something for the Dutch war victims from the former D.E.I. As I wrote before, that was about € 200 for each of us. You are also right about the Dutch "comfort women", that was offered by a Japanese fund, not by the Japanese governments. Only a few women accepted that money.

Ah, you ask me why I don't abolish the San Francisco Treaty. That Treaty was not set up in Holland but in America. How on earth can I or any other one from the D.E.I. change that Treaty? And besides that, I have no authority at all. I am just an old lady who once long ago grew up in Indonesia, one of the countries that was occupied by Japan during WWII.
No one would even bother to answer me!!

There are two type of Dutch people: 1: The Dutch from Holland
2: The Dutch who lived in the D.E.I before WWII

The Dutch from the former D.E.I. were not welcome in Holland afer the war. We were called the exploiters from the Indonesians. Strange, when you think that most of our fathers worked for Dutch firms in Holland and that their income tax went to Holland.
The Dutch government in exile in London ( Holland was occupied by Germany) did declare war on Japan 8 December 1941.
The British women and children could be send to England, via South Africa.
The Dutch women and children had to stay where they were, Holland was occupied by the Germans.

The Dutch in Holland had suffered under the German occupation, especially the Dutch Jews of course.
When the Dutch refugees from Indonesia came to Holland ( the country from one of our parents , or both of our parents) they realized that they were not one bit welcome.
We all kept very quiet, those who tried to tell about "our" war in the Far East were laughed at. The Germans were cruel during WWII, not the Japanese.
Nobody cared about signing the S.A.Treaty. We, the Dutch from Indonesia, were all rich enough so we were told.

Japan doen't like us either, we must stop crying about that occupation of Indonesia, it was a Dutch colony. It wasn't as bad as we are saying. And the bad things we saw were just hallucinations and overdone stories.

I think that the first Japanese government after the war,( most certainly Mr.Yoshida) did want to compensate the Dutch people from Indonesia more than € 200. But that was not allowed.

I also learned very young that there are far more kind and good Japanese in this world than war criminals. But that "we" from the former D.E.I. have been badly treated by the Dutch from Holland and the Japanese government in cooperation with America ( S.F.Treaty) after that horrible war, that is a fact.

What do I expect from Japan?

I would be very happy when Japan will accept its not so nice WWII history. By trying to hide dark history, it always gets worse.
Dark histories happen ever since our world exists. Look at our world of today.

[tokapi]

Dutch parliament demands Japanese compensation for "comfort women".

For the first time in 62 years I am proud of a Dutch government!




Early last month, the Dutch Lower House passed a unanimous resolution to seek from the Japanese government an official apology to and restitution for the comfort women.

Now the Dutch women probably have the most clear-cut case against the Japanese government on the comfort women issue .

http://son-of-gadfly-on-the-wall.blogspot.com/2007/12/how-empires-deal-with-history-dutch.html

[A ke bono kane kotto]

Of course, Japan paid something for the Dutch war victims from the former D.E.I. As I wrote before, that was about € 200 for each of us.

Damn, you can't even buy a plane ticket to Japan with that, even from Korea !

[Sihanssi]

I’ve always thought that the claims made on Japan because of the occupation of Dutch East Indies a bit peculiar, to say the least. Lambert Giebels, a Dutch historian, also reached the conclusion that these claims were unjustified. First of all, the war was declared by the Dutch authorities of D.E.I. It follows from there that the subsequent war, Dutch surrender and even the internment of citizens were acts in accordance with the law of war. After the war the Japanese paid 10 million dollars US to the Dutch government in compensation.
Secondly, D.E.I., present day Indonesia, was a Dutch colony and involuntarily so. Although we have been told stories about the blessings Dutch rule has brought to the natives of the “Emerald Belt” as the Indonesian islands were poetically called, the facts of their conquest and the price the natives paid for Dutch rule are talked about in very general terms, if at all during the history lessons I’ve received in school.
Dutch rule was responsible for a structural undernourishment among Javanese farmers that lasted for decades on the isle Java due to the so-called ‘cultures policy’. The latter compelled the Javanese farmers to grow indigo, tea and sugar for the sake of the Dutch economy instead of rice and so causing a long lasting situation of under nourishment among the population. We can only guess what the consequences must have been for the Javanese.
The Dutch territorial claims to Bali and Sumatra caused the extermination of the Balinese royal families and a war in Aceh that cost many, many lives, among them hundreds of thousands of forced (native) laborers working for the Dutch army. That war shows many similarities with the Vietnam and the present-day Irak wars and lasted from the end of the 19th century until the Japanese invasion.
The laborers on the tobacco plantations of Sumatra were virtual slaves and had to live and work under inhuman conditions subject to the whims of whomever was put over them. A report on treatment of the laborers has been buried very deeply in the national archives and until today is very hard to get permission to read it.
The mortality rate of the forced (Indonesian) laborers was on the average higher than that of the forced laborers under the Japanese military.
Of course unsavory things happened under Japanese military rule: the kempei, for instance, were pretty heavy-handed with the people that drew their attention and the internment of civilians was badly organized resulting in much suffering; and of course there were the occasional rape and summary executions. As for certain internment camps in Java criminal intent could be proven. That having said, there is a distinct tendency among certain groups to exaggerate and they even make up stories about the Japanese occupation of D.E.I.
As for atonement and apologies, let it be noted that, compared to other places, a remarkable high percentage of Japanese were executed after the war by the Dutch. This is more indicative for the vindictiveness of the Dutch than justice.
It could hardly be denied that IMTFE (Tokyo tribunal) has all the characteristics of a kangaroo court. The case of general Yamashita is an example of that.
And the Japanese have apologized over and over again. So how many apologies do we need?
It is true that the Japanese armed forces were responsible for many atrocities, notably in China and Korea, but on balance it is fair to say that those were no different than the atrocities for which all major imperialistic and colonial powers, including the Netherlands, are responsible. And I think it is also fair to say the Japanese have already paid a heavy price for their misdeeds: Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
I do think, however, that the Japanese government should take responsibility for and compensate the still living ‘comfort women’. But then again the Dutch government is still to pay and/or help the Eurasians who have fought and suffered for them and who where abandoned in abysmal circumstances when the Dutch lost their colony.

[hanachan]

Sihanssi, thank you very much.
I think that your opinion is very objective and really fair.
Which opinion is the majority in your country, yours or Elizabeth van Kampen's?

[Sihanssi]

Well Hanachan, that’s a bit difficult to say. First of all, many people don’t know much about what happened in the Dutch East Indies, neither are they very interested. However, there are very active groups of people, who were in the D.E.I. during the Japanese occupation or who are their (grand)children, who more or less hijack public opinion. If a politician has the courage to accept the historical facts and says so in public he’ll face a lot of flack from this group.

The peculiar thing is that many people who have witnessed and lived through these events were quite objective in their views of their former captors. My father among them. And he has seen the worse as a POW working at the railroad in Thailand.

[Astroboy]

This news interested me very much...... As far as I know, Dutch Gov Never made compensation to Indonesia for their 300-years colonization. They only apologized.
So I will push my Indonesian friends to claim "Compensation" against Dutch Gov. If Indonesian succeed, Vietnam will claim against France, and India will do the same to UK, and Aboligine will do the same against Australia.....
Of course, Japan needs to claim against USA for their dropping nukes.
Let's enjoy Compensation War!:wave:

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Good luck Astroboy!

The Dutch didn't even compensate the Dutch people who were living in the former Dutch East Indies while working for Dutch firms. And that while the Dutch government in exile in England declared war on Japan. They left us in the cold.
Only never forget that only Japan had the KEMPEITAI and that was quite a cruel troop, you know.

I sugest that we all should help poor children to school so that they get a good education and later on good jobs. I am helping 12 Indonesian children to school.
7 in Malang, East Java, 3 from the island Sumba and 2 in Kalimantan.
Helping the future is the best that we can do.

[Astroboy]

What a convenient history interpretation... You are always right but we are always wrong.

Then Ask Indonesian! (not living in Holland but living in Indonesia).

[Astroboy]

Good luck Astroboy!
The Dutch didn't even compensate the Dutch people who were living in the former Dutch East Indies while working for Dutch firms. And that while the Dutch government in exile in England declared war on Japan. They left us in the cold.
Only never forget that only Japan had the KEMPEITAI and that was quite a cruel troop, you know.
I sugest that we all should help poor children to school so that they get a good education and later on good jobs. I am helping 12 Indonesian children to school.
7 in Malang, East Java, 3 from the island Sumba and 2 in Kalimantan.
Helping the future is the best that we can do.

Yes, I agree. Japan has been the largest donator of economic assistance for Indonesia. Indonesian economy is doing much better, and more kids are being able to go to school.

[Astroboy]

"The San Francisco Treaty is a farce! America was very scared that Japan would turn into a Communistic country." ---- Probably right, and then all of us can modify any treaties when we don't like it.

"America made Japan a so called democratic country." --- Japan introduced a limited but universal suffrage in early 1900s. Today USA is a so-called democratic country but many believe that it is not and they are causing wars/flictions. Germany was the most democratic country after WWI, but took over by ultra-nationalist. Holland was also one of the old democratic countries but their definition of democracy was limited to Europe.

Interesting isn't it?

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

I sugest that we all should help poor children to school so that they get a good education and later on good jobs. I am helping 12 Indonesian children to school.
7 in Malang, East Java, 3 from the island Sumba and 2 in Kalimantan.
Helping the future is the best that we can do.

It is very splendid.

Please help her.
"Dutch diplomat in Hong Kong returns South Korean girl adopted 7 years ago."
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/12/11/asia/AS-GEN-Hong-Kong-Adopted-Girl-Returned.php

http://www.chosunonline.com/article/20071210000062

[caster51]

what a selfish ..Is she a dog?

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hiroyuki N,

I am shocked when I read stories like this. Such people should never have adopted that poor girl! In my eyes they have destroyed the girl's life.

I have a adopted son and a dauhter from India, who are now 35 and 30 years young.
I can asure you that I love them with all my haert. Both were also accepted from the beginning by my whole family. My mother also considered both from the moment they arrived in Holland as her grandchildren. That is how it should be.
Both my children love me too.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Holland was also one of the old democratic countries but their definition of democracy was limited to Europe.

Interesting isn't it?

Astorboy,

I don't know if I would call it interesting. But I read sometime ago that the American democraty is not quite the same as the European way of thinking about democracy.

The aim of the European Union is not only business[B] it is also to prevent another war [B]on this Continent. I think that it going to be a Union to be proud of.
There have been far too many wars in Europe since Europeans are no angels.

I hope for your sake that Asia will also form such a strong Union. And that your peoples too will realize that Asians are no angels either. Blaming the white race alone for all the missery on earth is too easy.
Remember the Dajaks ( Indonesians from Kalimantan) who killed I don't remember how many Madurese (Indonesians in 1999? The Madurese were beheaded, their heart were cut out of their bodies and eaten by the Dajaks.

[Astroboy]

Hiroyuki N,
I am shocked when I read stories like this. Such people should never have adopted that poor girl! In my eyes they have destroyed the girl's life.
I have a adopted son and a dauhter from India, who are now 35 and 30 years young.
I can asure you that I love them with all my haert. Both were also accepted from the beginning by my whole family. My mother also considered both from the moment they arrived in Holland as her grandchildren. That is how it should be.
Both my children love me too.

No doubt!

There are many strange diplomats in Japan.

[Astroboy]

Asia Union.....Maybe someday in the future, but not in near future because Asia is more mosaic than Europe.

We (Japan) continues to run ahead but we caused the tragedy in the region. Personally I think Pacific War was one of major historic incidents in Asia, triggered Great Change in the region. In this sense, Imperial Japan was similar to France of Napoleonic epoch. After Napoleon War, nationalism was raised in Europe and many countries went independent. .... Well .... after that, Europe experienced many wars (WWI & II). And everybody knows the results.

We are now viewing many developments in this region, which are similar to Europe. Dat's why Japan try to manage imbalance in the region together with Asian countries. There are always some strange/dangerous people in Indonesia, Japan, and everywhere including USA. But behind that, always poverty. I believe that Japan put emphasis on more economic assistance, education and technology transfer to Asian countries for them to attain economic independence.

I am very happy to see that almost all Asian countrires, excepting Myanmer & North Korea, are now getting out of poverty. When people can become prosperous, people will not start the war, I believe. Indonesia is not a less developed country but developing country. :cool:

[Sihanssi]

[...]Only never forget that only Japan had the KEMPEITAI and that was quite a cruel troop, you know[...]Well Elizabeth, the Dutch translation for kempeitai is marechaussee. The latter was founded during the Aceh war and basically it had the same mission as its Japanese equivalent:surpress and control. Their methods in the field weren't much different.

It is well known that the kempei weren't boy scouts and many of their methods were despicable. But frankly speaking, reading the Rhemrev report on the treatment of Javanese laborers of the Sumatran tabacco plantations in the 20th century not long before the Japanes invasion, I see many similarities with a kempei interrogation session. Both are brutal and inhuman. And let's not forget Westerling's campaigns after the war. One of my uncles served with him and what he told us about the treatment of 'suspects' was quite similar to the "best" the kempeihad to offer.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hi Sihanssi,

I learnt everything about that dirty Aceh war at school in the former Dutch East Indies.
A very nasty and horrible war!! There were several more wars like that in the former D.E.I. I fully agree with you there.

But the Kempeitai can be compared with the German Gestapo.
My father was killed by the Kempeitai from Malang, East Java.
My uncle was killed by the Kempeitai in Jakarta.
I have visited the prison where my father was killed in 1996, and have spoken with several Indonesians and they told me stories that gave me cold shivers.

The name Kempeitai, make me very sad and very silent.

Sorry my father was killed in March 1945! I visited his Kempeitai prison in 1996.

[Sihanssi]

Elizabeth, I don’t think the kempeitai could be compared to the Gestapo, although they had some aspects of the latter; that is they also had to track down spies and saboteurs. Objectively they were more like the marechaussee in Aceh. The difference is that the marechaussee was more of a fighting force than the kempei was. The kempeitai’s mission in occupied territory was safeguarding the backs of the fighting forces. I don’t want to whitewash them but what are the facts? Sure enough they were often harsh, cruel and sadistic, but I’m not convinced they were more so than the Dutch were during their wars in Aceh, Java or Sumatra. I’m sure the stories my uncle could have told you about his actions and those of his fellow service men under Westerling would have given you cold shivers too. Homo homini lupus est – to man, man is a wolf.

In an illustrated book about the imperial Japanese army from 1976 I saw a picture of members of the kempeitai tending to a wounded British soldier. It was an American publication and the picture doesn’t look like it was meant for propaganda but something that came out of private collection. For me it is an indication that there is a lot of grey between black and white.

I don’t believe that the Japanese war past should be viewed, or put in the same category as that of Germany. I’ve always taken issue with the tendency to do so. In my opinion Japan fought a colonial war as all the other colonial powers did. That came with the same horrors and atrocities as with all colonial wars. Then why is Japan always singled out? I believe it is because Japan is the only Asian nation ever to have subjected the white man to the same humiliations and sufferings the non-whites have suffered on the hands of the colonial powers. This single fact caused the collapse of the colonial empires. Japan has never been forgiven for that. Then is Japan innocent? No, but not more guilty than all the other colonial powers. A cynic would say: the only thing Japan did wrong was losing the war.

To the victim all this is academic, but surely, the individual experience cannot be the measure to judge but all the facts and circumstances should be taken into account.

My grandfather too was a victim of the kempeitai’s kikosaku. I was told he was beheaded.

[hanachan]

Sihanssi, very well spoken, thanks.
If I said like that, I would be called "Ultra" rightist or nationalist here.
I also want to know how you think about Comfort Women issue.

[Astroboy]

"A cynic would say: the only thing Japan did wrong was losing the war."

Seems to be right....Then Japan needs to go war again. Although Japan does not need to do war at this moment, Japanese have increasingly been aware that it needs to prepare something more, and Japanese have increasingly been becoming more free from mentality & taboo of post-war regime. Change of Constitution will be the first step..

NK's abduction awakened many of sleeping Japanese, and even some of Japanese are appreciating NK nuke tests because people, including politicians, can become more openly talkable about defense & military including Nukes.

Of course, it is just a sign that Japan is becoming an ordinary country though.

[FrustratedDave]

"A cynic would say: the only thing Japan did wrong was losing the war."
Seems to be right....Then Japan needs to go war again. Although Japan does not need to do war at this moment, Japanese have increasingly been aware that it needs to prepare something more, and Japanese have increasingly been becoming more free from mentality & taboo of post-war regime. Change of Constitution will be the first step..
NK's abduction awakened many of sleeping Japanese, and even some of Japanese are appreciating NK nuke tests because people, including politicians, can become more openly talkable about defense & military including Nukes.
Of course, it is just a sign that Japan is becoming an ordinary country though.
Are you talking preemptive war against NK?

[Astroboy]

Are you talking preemptive war against NK?

Not really. I wanted to tell ...NK nuke & abduction was a trigger. In fact, since then the air of Japan completely chnaged. If we were USA/UK, we are already being in war.

Plus, the recent movement about unlimited demand for apology ... if it's based on the facts that Japan failed in the war and Japan is non-European and Japan is not dagerous, what Japan can do is to take different path, I believe.

I'm sure Younger generation feel more frustration. Why we have to keep apologizing? while Japan already completed its responsibility. Because we are born in Japan?

I know. Somebody will tell "it's not good enough"....and it never end.

Either way, it is good to change Japanese mentality, and such a change has already begun. Some hundreds years ago, Dutch and other European arrived at Japan. Some said in their diary "Japan was a peaceful country. People enjoyed poet, literature and martial arts"... But since then, all changed.

History clearly indicates that Japan had continued to attain its mega-change principally against external pressure. and the start of change was always subtle. --- which is my understanding.

[Astroboy]

Another historic fact .... so-called Big country "can" change the rule.

UK/France/other Europeans were a typical case in the past. USA is a typical case of today. Probably China will be the future case.

In line with International law, Japan completed its responsibility of the war. But they say it's not enough. So they are now changing the rule again. Today we can see many cases of such.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

If I may say so, and that is just a personal opinion: I am the only one on the Forum who was there when it all happened.

But I like to tell you that I never suffered from a "camp-trauma" I never hated the Japanese people, I was shocked when I saw all the pictures in Nagasaki when I saw them in 2000, I have always been against the A-Bombs, I have 2 Japanese friends, I correspond now and with two Japanese very intelligent gentlemen."

I am also well aware of what the Dutch government did wrong during the Dutch colonial days in Indonesia. But one must also see this in the context of those years when colonies were consired as normal. So today we can all call it very bad, but in those days it wasn't bad at all. Where I really blame the Dutch governments and queen Juliana, is the war against the Indonesian, trying to hold on to their colony. What was also a big mistake, was the refuse to talk with the President Sukarno from Indonesia.

Okay now Japan.
Oh yes, I have a trauma, a real war trauma. My father, who was a real friendly and open minded man, with the patience of an angle, always ready to help others, was tortured and killed by the Kempeitai in Malang, East Java.
It was on my 16th birthday that I saw him for the last time. He was standing at the inside of his camp ( not yet in the Kempei prison) I was standing at the outside. In between us was a iron gate and behind my father stood a Indonesian guard. We had to speak to each other in Malay ( Bahasa Indonesia did not yet exist) because Dutch was a forbidden language.
We received 10 minutes to speak to each other. I told him that all was still fine with my mother and two younger sisters. He asked questions and I answered them with a big smile on my face. My father looked sad and very worried. I tried to cheer him up.
I became 16 years old that day and I never saw my father again.
He has no grave. There is only emptiness.

No apologizes, no compensations or whatever could bring me back the best friend I ever had, my father.

[B]War[B] is something so horrible for us people from all over the world. Live goes on that is true, but the pain will stay.
And as long as people refuse to understand the other side of the story, there will be other wars forever ... and emptiness.

[Astroboy]

I feel very sorry to hear that. Fortunately any of my family didn't go to war (either too young or too old), and thus what I heard is only happenings in Japan. And I have no words to say for your wartime experience.

[pipokun]

Dutch parliament demands Japanese compensation for "comfort women"
This is what you started here.

Could you tell me if your parliament does not know what Japan and your goverment agreed upon the war-related compensation?

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Astroboy,

Thank you for your kind answer!

I know that many Japanese families suffered during WWII. One of my friends is from Tokyo and she told me about those horrible firebombs on her home town during that war.
It must have been a hell and I can only try to imagine.
Most people know about the A-Bombs on Hiroshima an Nagasaki, but I think those fire-bombs were also a real nightmare.

But will we ever learn?

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Pipokun

Dutch parliament demands Japanese compensation for "comfort women"

This is what you started here.

Could you tell me if your parliament does not know what Japan and your goverment agreed upon the war-related compensation?[/B]


And this is what I asked Pipokun:

[I]I couldn't believe my eyes when I received this news from a friend in Canada.
For the first time in 62 years I am proud of a Dutch government!

I like to know what you think of this news!


See! I ask about your opinion!!

For the first time after more than 62 years I am proud of the Dutch government.
Of course, because at last they dare to defend a very small group of the Dutch victims of their colony. And why? Amnesty International defends those girls and women now too, and it was not only about Dutch girls and women. It was about all the comfort women.


Pipokun, maybe I was just a little bit sarcastic about all the attention for the girls and women from the former Dutch East Indies??
Ha ha, we ( Dutch from D.E.I) are so used to criticism and spiteful remarks, that I was very surprised about the above announcement. The government defending an extremely small part of our group. Almost unbelievable!!

It has now gone to the European Parliament.

You want to know what I really think of all this?
Not for all the gold in the world would I accept a compensation , if I had been used as a "comfort girl" during the Japanese occupation

Other compensations could be considered as business, but not this one.

[FrustratedDave]

I became 16 years old that day and I never saw my father again.
He has no grave. There is only emptiness.
No apologizes, no compensations or whatever could bring me back the best friend I ever had, my father.
[B]War[B] is something so horrible for us people from all over the world. Live goes on that is true, but the pain will stay.
And as long as people refuse to understand the other side of the story, there will be other wars forever ... and emptiness.
Elizabeth, I feel for you. That is a terrible thing for you to have to go through. I could only imagine what it would feel like if it were me and my child in that situation, very sad indeed. My condolences , even though it was such a long time ago, however I know that it would still be very vivid in your mind.:(

[hanachan]

The suspect of the so-called Dutch comfort women case was executed.
He might have been innocent. Because another person committed suicide later.
The Dutch government, however, never show the trial record. Why?
The Netherlands excuted 226 Japanese war criminals, most of the allied excuted.
You might not accept, but the Dutch army treated Japanese captive so terrible. Torture everyday until they were excuted. Should we hate your army like you hate kenpeitai?
Why Dutch war criminals were not judged?

Japan paid the Dutch government 10,000,000 dollars in 1950s.
Why do you ignore them?
Dutch people never stop whipping an executed person?
Are Dutch parliament you are proud of, satisfied if they receive compensation how many times?



Of course I feel very sorry for you. And I can understand your sorrow and emptiness. Because my father is close your age and he is also survivor from napalm bombing. the old Japanese people have a same trauma, and they are hiding it so deep inside. Japanese victims have been keeping silence. Do you understand why?

You misunderstand Comfort women issue, at least Korean's claim is different from the Dutch girls' case. Please think them separately.
Your experience in Indonesia has nothing to do with this problem. Please think again, who is behind the problem.

[Astroboy]

In short, it was "Lynch", and the "Lynch" still continues.

They say "We need More Japanese Blood" in different form.

[Sihanssi]

If I may say so, and that is just a personal opinion: I am the only one on the Forum who was there when it all happened.
[...]
I am also well aware of what the Dutch government did wrong during the Dutch colonial days in Indonesia. But one must also see this in the context of those years when colonies were consired as normal. So today we can all call it very bad, but in those days it wasn't bad at all[...]
That makes you a valuable witness no doubt, but only for the things you have seen and experienced. Other stories differ from yours and in my view it is the whole that determines the complete picture.
Those days, as you call them, however, lasted until the Japanese occupation and beyond. Until the Japanese invasion the situation on the Dutch plantations in Sumatra never really improved and neither did the circumstances for the natives convicted to forced labor. The other day I saw a recently made documentary showing a lady, who, I guess, was in her late seventies, being interviewed about the time she lived in D.E.I. If her answers are any indication, to her those days never passed.
As for colonies being considered normal, one could wonder why it wasn’t considered normal for Japan? After all, they booted out the Dutch and became the new colonial masters. Like all the colonial powers, Japan built her own colonial empire in Asia. Considering the time line, Japan started to move on Korea in 1873, the Dutch invaded Aceh in 1883. You might say they’re more or less contemporary.
One thing that is rarely, or rather, never, mentioned in these discussions is the fact that in the mid 19th century Japan faced the very real prospect of becoming a colony or protectorate of the western powers. One could say that she only had 2 options: become a prey or a predator.

I'm not excusing or defending Japan's imperialism, but I think two measures are applied: one for the Western powers and one for Japan. Sure enough Japan's armed forces committed atrocities but so did the others. So why is Japan being bothered over it? Apologies? Many have been given. Compensation? Has been paid. Acknowledge what she did wrong? She has foresworn an army. Admit the bad things in her past? Which country does that honestly? Do they call the conquest of the west genocide in the US?

I feel sorry for your loss and the negative feelings you have towards the kempeitai and such are very understandable. And sure enough for you they’re the animals that have killed your father. However, that is your own personal experience, how truthful and sad it may be it is still only part of a larger picture. And I, who was not a direct participant in that tragedy, stand apart from it and am therefore in a better position to get a more objective view of those times and people. I do see the brutality of the kempeitai, but as I wasn’t personally touched by it, I can also see the circumstances that lead them to that brutality. Mind you, it is not an excuse for it, but as I have read and heard different stories about that time and the kempeitai I feel a more balanced and objective picture is in order.

hanachan asked me:
also want to know how you think about Comfort Women issue.
I think that the Japanese government as heir to this issue is responsible. It is evident that elements of the Japanese armed forces were involved in the setting up of the bordello’s and that many of the women, if not all were coerced into working there. The discussion whether the government or army authorities were officially involved or not is an empty one. Morally they are responsible. If it is smart the Japanese government should compensate the still living comfort women and wrap up this issue in a decent way. If only to silence the critics. On the other hand I find that some of the governments criticizing Japan on this point hypocrites. If you open their closets many skeletons will fall out.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

hanachan,

Of course I feel very sorry for you. And I can understand your sorrow and emptiness. Because my father is close your age and he is also survivor from napalm bombing. the old Japanese people have a same trauma, and they are hiding it so deep inside. Japanese victims have been keeping silence. Do you understand why?

Oh yes, hanachan, I do understand.
Japan has been the only country in the world that was hit by a A-bomb.
And I can honestly say that I never said or even thought that those horrible bombs saved my life. I can very well understand the trauma of the old innocent Japanese people.

I have seen two films of Hiroshima and I have been to Nagasagi and I read quite some stories about this horrible drama.

When the war was over August 1945, our Japanese camp guards left and as from then on we were protected by Japanese soldiers until the British came to help us.
During the first two weeks we could walk in and out the camp, I even went swimming.
One day when I came back to the camp/prison from a walk, I saw many girls standing around a Japanese soldier who was sitting on the ground and crying his heart out.
When I asked what happened, I was told that this soldier had lost his whole family because of a horrible bomb.
None of us ever heared of the A-bombs of course, we had been closed off from the whole world. But I do remember that we felt very, very sorry for this Japanese soldier.
He didn't cry because Japan "lost" the Pacific war, no he cried because he lost his whole family.

So yes hanachan, I do understand your father!

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hello Sihanssi,

Of course you can oversee everything much better that I can. Are you studying history?

Okay here we go. Abdulgani an Indonesian nationalist from the beginning has said once; "I don't like the Dutch, but I have learnt that indivitual I do like them"

When I think back ( I was only a schoolgirl in those days before the war) then I guess that he was absolutely right. That was the feeling; I like you but not your nation.

When I came to Holland in 1946, I really disliked this country.
I heared stories about the German occupation and I started reading many, really many books about WWII in Europe. I stopped reading them around 1995, only then I started reading about WWII in Asia.
I had made Germany my enemy. But thank goodness I became very interested in the European Union. Today, I am an European, not only Dutch.

I lived 20 years outside the Netherlands and if you count my years in Indonesia as well than I lived to 38 years outside Holland.

In almost every small village in Holland you will find some sort of a monument remembering the German occupation. Libraries full of book about the German occupation, films and TV programs about cruel Germany.

The people from the D.E.I had and still have to keep quite about their Japanese occupation. It was all exaggeration from those colonials and they deserved it all since they had nothing to do in Indonesia. They should have stayed in Holland, stop crying. Funny, the D.E.I. made Holland a very rich country. This attitude towards the Dutch from the Far East made the Dutch from former D.E.I. bitter and oh so disappointed.

Thank goodness I lived 20 years in several countries. I am a globetrotter and made real friends everywhere.

[Sihanssi]

No, Elizabeth I didn’t major in history though the history of East Asia was part of my studies. I became particularly interested in the Japanese occupation of D.E.I. because of the inconsistencies I noticed in the stories I have been told. I wanted to know what really happened and why. I give you an example of what I mean. According to the stories Sonei Kenichi, commander of the Tjideng camp for women, was a cruel beast, on par with Hoess, the commander of Auschwitz. What I could find about him would at most warrant a charge of violence, manslaughter or death due to negligence. He was known for his uncontrollable rage and he had been punished once by his superiors for his behaviour towards the people in the camp. In other words, he doesn’t even come close to a person like Hoess. Yet he was executed after the war. There is here a strong inconsistency between the image created and the facts. Something I noticed characterizes the discussion of the Japanese occupation of D.E.I.
I don’t believe there was a prohibition on talking about the Japanese occupation, and there certainly isn’t one now in The Netherlands. There is even a big monument in The Hague dedicated to the war in Asia. However, it’s true there wasn’t much interest for the stories of people returning from Japanese captivity. Netherlands being in a shambles right after the war and the whole process of picking up the pieces it is understandable that one had neither time nor energy to focus on stories of people whose circumstances one couldn’t even imagine in better times let alone when things were bad.
Also the war in Asia differed very much from the war in Europe. Although people were put in camps, there is not one camp that even came close to something like Auschwitz. Actually many of them was a closed-off quarter in a town or compounds like schools and such, nothing like the custom built camps like Birkenau or Auschwitz.The latter were built for one purpose only: the industrial extermination of people deemed undiserable. However bad a camp in D.E.I. might have been it was not set up to exterminate people but to confine them. I think that if the Japanese had had a way to ship out the Dutch they would have done so. Actually the confinement of so many people drew on their resources as well. Deducting from the fact that the administration of the occupied territories was so badly managed and had a kind of ad hoc character I could not but have the impression that the Japanese haven’t really thought about the occupation of D.E.I. All they cared about was the oil for their war machine and ports for their navy.
I read in the correspondence of an official who was sent to D.E.I. just after the war that it was not done to mention or pay attention to the dreadful state of the Indonesian population. Doing so in front of “the colonials” would mean ostracization by the small Dutch community. The majority of the Indonesion populationhas born the brunt of the Japanese occupation due to the gross mismanagement of the country by the Japanese. When the war was about to end there were incidents of Indonesian people trying to break into the camps for civilians to steal food.
From whatever angle one wants to look at it, yes, unfortunately for the Dutch in their colony at that time it was being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Astroboy]

Excluding the case of Elizabeth, I am thinking that "something unconscious" must exist behind the recent developments relating to so-called comfort woman issues.

Europe experienced Tragedy during WWII. The tragedy was not only tragedy of WAR but tragedy of humanity....i.e. "concentration camp to terminate Jewish people".

The problem is ..... this tragedy was not only caused by "German" but also caused by European, I believe.

As far as I know, many (or some) Dutch/French/Danish.... people supported NAZI during the war and helped NAZI to send Jewish to concentration camp.....even Dutch SS units or Danish or others must have existed and joined the war together with German.
After the war, those facts were sealed off, and Europeans (except German) affixed all blames to German. But many Europeans still remember it was very European.

Probably Europeans DO NOT want to believe that such tragedy of humanity only occurred in Europe, and they WANT to believe that Asia must have been the same.
"Japan" must be a good case for European, I think.

Some Europeans must feel relief when they hear wartime atrocities of Japanese army. Or they want to believe that such happened in Asia, too. Not only in Europe....

[hanachan]

hanachan asked me:
also want to know how you think about Comfort Women issue.
I think that the Japanese government as heir to this issue is responsible. It is evident that elements of the Japanese armed forces were involved in the setting up of the bordello’s and that many of the women, if not all were coerced into working there. The discussion whether the government or army authorities were officially involved or not is an empty one. Morally they are responsible. If it is smart the Japanese government should compensate the still living comfort women and wrap up this issue in a decent way. If only to silence the critics. On the other hand I find that some of the governments criticizing Japan on this point hypocrites. If you open their closets many skeletons will fall out.

Thank you for replying me, Sihanssi. You are so intelligent and very fair.
We will start to discuss this issue now.

[Sihanssi]

[...]
As far as I know, many (or some) Dutch/French/Danish.... people supported NAZI during the war and helped NAZI to send Jewish to concentration camp.....even Dutch SS units or Danish or others must have existed and joined the war together with German.
After the war, those facts were sealed off, and Europeans (except German) affixed all blames to German. But many Europeans still remember it was very European.
[...]


Killing Jews was done on a regular basis in Europe and seems almost something like a ritual. In my darkest moods I think that Hitler did what Europe wanted to do. Anyway the leaders knew about the slaughter of the Jews and could have at least hampered it. They chose to ignore. In that respect there seems to be a similarity with the Pacific War: the higher echelons in Tokyo knew what was happening in China and other parts of the world where the armed forces went berserk. Powerless to stop it they chose to ignore it. Also some degree of disinterest surely must have played a part.
Many people were at that time attracted to the nazi ideology and indeed many helped to round up and transport the Jews to the death camps. Although they might not have known the extent and length the nazi’s were capable of going.

Though it must be said that the Danes were the exception. It is possible that some Danes joined the SS, but when the occupying Germans decreed that the Jews were to wear the yellow star the Danish king put one on his breast saying that if his subjects have to wear a yellow star he will do that also. And many Danes followed his example. So hardly any Jew was taken from Denmark.


I think the main reason the former colonial powers are focusing on Japan’s war past is because they felt thoroughly humiliated by a people they considered inferior. Especially in a time when the white man thought he had the god given right to rule over the non-white people, the shock must have been great. Listening to the camp stories the most hated thing was not being beaten or hungry, but the obligatory bows to the Japanese officers or in the direction of Japan. On a site dedicated to the Tjideng camp (unfortunately I am not allowed post a url, but just google tjideng and look up the site: members.iinet.net.au/~vanderkp/tjideng.html) the first picture is that of European women bowing. You would expect pictures of mistreated women, emaciated perhaps, but no, just a row of well fed European women in a row bowing. It was presented as something horrible. If you understand that then you will understand where the hatred comes from

[Astroboy]

I think the main reason the former colonial powers are focusing on Japan’s war past is because they felt thoroughly humiliated by a people they considered inferior. Especially in a time when the white man thought he had the god given right to rule over the non-white people, the shock must have been great.

Partly agree. I remember French novelist "Pierre Boulle (1912 – 1994) who is known for two famous works, "The Bridge over the River Kwai (1952)" and "Planet of the Apes (1963)."

Reportedly "Planet of the Apes" was based on his experience of the POW camp during the war.

[Astroboy]

I think the main reason the former colonial powers are focusing on Japan’s war past is because they felt thoroughly humiliated by a people they considered inferior. Especially in a time when the white man thought he had the god given right to rule over the non-white people, the shock must have been great. Listening to the camp stories the most hated thing was not being beaten or hungry, but the obligatory bows to the Japanese officers or in the direction of Japan. On a site dedicated to the Tjideng camp (unfortunately I am not allowed post a url, but just google tjideng and look up the site: members.iinet.net.au/~vanderkp/tjideng.html) the first picture is that of European women bowing. You would expect pictures of mistreated women, emaciated perhaps, but no, just a row of well fed European women in a row bowing. It was presented as something horrible. If you understand that then you will understand where the hatred comes from

It is understandable that people will get angry when they feel insulted.
Probably Europe completely lost their honor, pride and superiority during/after the WAR in Asia.

Japan was defeated in the war but attained its economic prosperity. Contorary Europe lost colonies and became one of the regions in this planet, while they attained a full victory over Japan in the war.

I won't say that Japan helped Asian countries go independent, but obviously it was a trigger or helped encourage Asians.

Maybe those mixed feelings against Japan will be laying behind the comfort woman resolution in Europes, I think. Or too much consideration?

[hanachan]

アトム
I think you are right, and I agree with you.
Maybe no one will reply anymore on this thread. Because you got the point.