Quote from Pope: Do you find it disturbing?

[Mikawa Ossan]

This is an excerpt from an AP news article which quotes the pope as he elevates 23 new cardinals. Do you not find this the least bit disturbing?

The pope told them that red signifies the dignity of their new office and that they must be ready to act "even to the point of spilling your blood for the increase of the Christian faith, for peace and harmony among the people of God, for freedom and the spread of the Holy Roman Catholic Church."

[Derfel]

Its not disturbing, if he said that to the crowd or something it would be, but he said it to his fellow clericals, so no, its okay in my opinion.

[Mycernius]

The current Pope is more fanatical than the last one, so it doesn't surprise me that he would say such things. Very much a fundie thing to say
"We'll use violence to bring about our peace and how good God is". It is the real face of religion.

[SushiShin]

This reminds me of the old days of history were the pope and the kings decided to fight for freedom? Crusaders?

[Mikawa Ossan]

I don't mind people trying to spread their beliefs through peaceful means, and I am all for peace, harmony and freedom. Who isn't?

But I do not like what this quotation implies. First of all, peace and harmony should not be worked for only "the people of God." They should be striven for all people.

If the Pope means that they should be willing to make sacrifices for their faith, I can understand that. They are leaders of the church and the people who follow them deserve a good example to follow.

But that brings another large problem. The Pope is bringing up rather savage and negative imagery to make whatever point he is trying to make. Such rhetoric from the top can only foster similar rhetoric from those beneath him. Such rhetoric leads to people doing all sorts of inhuman things in the name of "God".

Whatever ones opinions on religion in general are, I always thought that Jesus was a man of peace. Did he ever speak this way in the Bible? I don't remember any such passages, although I will admit it has been almost 20 years since I last cracked a Bible open.

With rhetoric like that, I find "The Holy Roman Catholic Church" to be a gross misnomer.

[AichiAlex]

This is an excerpt from an AP news article which quotes the pope as he elevates 23 new cardinals. Do you not find this the least bit disturbing?
can you provide a link to the article or a reference?

[Mikawa Ossan]

Ask, and you shall receive.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/24/AR2007112400526.html?hpid=sec-religion

This is a link to the Washington Post Web Site

[Mike Cash]

Whatever ones opinions on religion in general are, I always thought that Jesus was a man of peace. Did he ever speak this way in the Bible? I don't remember any such passages, although I will admit it has been almost 20 years since I last cracked a Bible open.


Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
That's really too bad....

No wonder they have so many problems....

[Mars Man]

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

This one is a translation problem, actually, because the Greek used doesn't really mean hate in the sense that we take the English word 'hate.' Here (and forgive me for being a bit too lazy to run over to the dozo and pull out the Greek text to show the actual word here) the word means to love or care for to a lesser degree. It is simply showing comparative degree.

The others are spot on...although I'll have to check the second one. It may be spurious--meaning that it was not a part of the more likely so, original exemplar. However, what that would show, is that some early church leaders (scribes) thought it was a good idea to implant such ideas into the minds of the illiterate followers at their weekly readings. Nice work there Mike Cash san !!

Yes, that syle of wording bothers me too !! And, more than anything else, for the very reason you have put out there, Mikawa Ossan san. What the 'top brass' seems to insinuate, can find itself in the orders that go down through the ranks. And, if the Holy Roman Empire were to strike up its former glory?. . . Dark Ages here we come !!

[Derfel]

The pope couldn't have encouraged the cardinals to go and wreak havoc outwith christendom, it might sound that way, but only if you want to misunderstand it. It is only symbolic, means that he wishes the cardinals to represent Catholicism with all they got, until their last breath, which is rather normal. Its only the dodgy wording, well not dodgy, but unusual in the 21st century.

This reminds me of the old days of history were the pope and the kings decided to fight for freedom? Crusaders?

Umm not really they weren't fighting just simply for freedom, they were fighting for the freedom of Jerusalem mainly. But lets not go into detail whether that was their true and only reason or not, for it obviously wasn't the only reason, if you're interested in the Crusades just PM someone Shin, or make a topic perhaps.

[Elizabeth]

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

To me it signifies he came not to send peace by compromise or negotiation with wickedness and was keenly aware a pacifist opposition to wrongdoing would inevitably create turmoil, violence and bloodshed by the evil doers that are dispelled. Not that such a result was desired but that it was unpreventable. At least as an immediate consequence.

For a heavenly peace as the "Sword of the Spirit" to prevail, carnal, earthly power of course is never surrendered lightly.

[Mars Man]

Kind of sounds like you've been reading too much Watchtower material, Elizabeth? hee, hee, hee...

Of course, we do not know what the historical person, Yeshua, had actually said, to any exact degree of wording. . . but the idea presented would be what the later hands would like to express to those who were under persecution by non-Christians back around 60~80 CE.

Yes, Derfel, I understand your point well. Even so, in todays setting, I feel such old and rustic styles should be left alone.

[Uncle Frank]

Bush and the Pope have a lot in common in the way they think, wonder if they are related?

Uncle Frank

:clueless: :okashii:



:blush:

[bakaKanadajin]

The Roman Catholic church under Benedict has definitely taken steps backwards in terms of being a more inclusive, progressive and applicable religious system for today's increasingly diverse population.

This new wave of fundamentalism is disturbing both in the Christian and Islamic camps.

[pugtm]

what i find disturbing is some cannibalistic tendencies in the catholic church

[Derfel]

what i find disturbing is some cannibalistic tendencies in the catholic church
You find it disturbing? Why? There's nothing disturbing about this sink or swim kinda stance in the world's biggest organization, its been like that since almost the beginning.

[Chi65]

And now they have a cat with claws, willing to use them and even saying so. And the last stated reason is his first one, and thats simply old fashioned colonianism, with or without church, does not make much difference in the end. If he would ask for exchange or compairings of ideas etc. plus peacefull cooperations and work up to this, we might see some changes, but. . .
Not enough, that one of the first things he did, was encouraging exorcism, and then he blamed others for the very same than his own churches' past. . .he does, and then he thinks, may be fatal, if that goes on.
We have to be carefull with that one.

[Ewok85]

If the Pope means that they should be willing to make sacrifices for their faith, I can understand that. They are leaders of the church and the people who follow them deserve a good example to follow.


Thats what I took it as, but you always get the nutters taking it the wrong way and ruining it for everyone ;)

[Kinsao]

LOL, when I saw the thread title I thought it was going to be about a quotation from Alexander Pope!

I noticed that the pope says "spilling your blood"... not other people's... which I would read as not an aggressive stance but rather a position of being prepared to suffer against attackers, for the defence of one's beliefs...

[Derfel]

Exactly... but nowadays being a bit enthusiastic is just not "trendy". Anything that reflects one personality too much is outta the fashion.

[scorpion da black]

i don't think what the pope said has any negative meaning to it.

some fanatics like to explain thinks based on their own interest ...
some people miss translate the bible and say Christianity is violent which is untrue ..

that also happens often when people mistranslates Islamic texts ...like those about fighting and war that were found so that Muslims could defend them selves from aggression that was great on them.
now fanatics take these texts and make it a weapon to convince young people of violent acts in the name of the religion.

that is what worries me about the popes words...i bet his intention was good, but Christian fanatics might use it as means for racial acts against people from other faiths like what is happening in England against Muslims.

[Taiko666]

...for racial acts against people from other faiths like what is happening in England against Muslims.

When was that then?

I think you'll find that England (do you mean the UK?) makes more efforts than almost any other non-Muslim country to accommodate Islam. That fact that the dozens of other faiths in the UK didn't seem to require the same effort or cause the same problems is worrying though.

[Goldiegirl]

Why can't we let people chose what faith the want to be? Why does it have to be spread? I think that causes so much of the trouble. Leave people alone to be what they want, not what you want for them. That is what gets me upset with "religion".

[Mars Man]

While I share your concern, Goldiegirl, I realize, at the same time, that it's a matter that goes beyond religious belief-systems.

I think we'll have to wait and see how elements of the Roman Catholic Church present this in their various journals, dissertations, and sermons to the flock and the public at large. Only then can we really make any predictions on how it might be used by some within that organization. I really do not think that Protestantism will use that as a tool for action--they rejected that belief-system with a notice nailed to a church door a looooong time ago.

[scorpion da black]

When was that then?
I think you'll find that England (do you mean the UK?) makes more efforts than almost any other non-Muslim country to accommodate Islam. That fact that the dozens of other faiths in the UK didn't seem to require the same effort or cause the same problems is worrying though.

yes the UK has some of the most friendly, open and fair system.

but you must have heard about the fights between people, assaults on Muslims and vanadalising Islamic tombs.

that was carried out by fascist English.

[Tsuyoiko]

"for freedom and the spread of the Holy Roman Catholic Church."
I find it too unsurprising to be really disturbing. What interests me more is the contradiction. How can someone fight simultaneously for both freedom and the spread of Catholicism?

[Mars Man]

I swear I saw the rabbit in that photo the last time I was back home on Mars...or was it in my dreams last night?

Anyway, I somehow managed to miss that particular point too. At the same time, however, if we were to lean on some words that had been penned, at least in the exemplar Christian text that made its way down to us, we could see where that may have come from...in that Yeshua is said to have said, in the account bearing the name John, that 'he truth will set one free.'

If we were to grant that the Pope believed the Roman Catholic Church to be 'The Truth,' then perhaps we could at least reconcile the two.

However...we know that that's not the case, because the Jehovah's Witnesses have already got a copyright on that title, 'The Truth'...do they not?

[Skullcrushergurl]

Most definately disturbing,but just a tad.

[Derfel]

However...we know that that's not the case, because the Jehovah's Witnesses have already got a copyright on that title, 'The Truth'...do they not?

Haha its "semi-offtopic" well our neighbors are Witnesses of Jehova, so my grandfather doesn't speak Hungarian, as he's Armenian, but he speaks Russian, so our neighbor somehow found out about it, and guess what, one day he bloody gave my grandfather a copy of Watchtower... in Russian. He must have ordered it. Now thats desperate.

Regarding the topic: Whats disturbing about encouraging martyrdom? Its pretty much a base element of Catholicism.

[bebopdobop]

I think many quotes are taken out of context. I am not Catholic, but I think what the Pope was alluding to, was not that they should do violence and spill blood, but that they should be willing to let their own blood be spilled should violence be done against them. Turning the other cheek, if you will. That they should be steadfast in their faith, should anyone seek to destroy them for their faith.