Is There Middle Ground for the Middle East--what would make a compromise?

[Mars Man]

From the Mediterrenian sea to the Tigris River, Mt. Hermon to the tip of the Sinai peninsula--a land of many struggles over the course of thousands of years--lies a thorn of an issue even in our time. Can a compromise be made? What might it take?

This thread is for a discussion of what a person might make of the turmoil in that region, and what might be done to reconcile, to compromise, to put an end to the fighting and build trust and friendship.

The theme of this thread will have little to do with religious belief-systems, though points from tenets of such may have bearing from time to time. This thread is not to belittle nor speak ill of other members, but to debate and discuss the problems, possible causes that had given rise to the problems, and how the conflict might be resolved. Let's be fair, as open-minded as possible, and polite.

I would think that less concern about national or national groups interests and more concern about human interests, would be a good starting attitude. At the same time, this would probably have to mean lessening of religious exclusiveness.

[scorpion da black]

a compromise is a way to solve the never ending battle of the middle east with no blood spilled.

Palestine for the Arabs and Israel for the Jews...
the problem is Israel and Palestine is the same land....and when we have two people claiming the same land and both are so insisting on the righteousness of their battle....we will have blood spilled, blood will rain with no cease....

Israelis claim that Palestine is their religious land, the promised land that God have granted them.
the Palestinians believe that Palestine is their land the land of their ancestors...the Canaanites who embraces Islam and that made the land even greater in importance to them and all the Muslims of the world....it is the land that they believe prophet Muhammad visited in the miraculous one night visit to Jerusalem and the heavens ...the land where he prayed with all the prophets...

any sane Muslims wouldn't compromise his holly land ...and neither do i wish for...
BUT
that will mean great blood bath.
if in any case peace can be achievable ... then compromise can be achieved...and war can be avoided.
a and we can all share...
if both sides are not ready to compromise then i am afraid war is inevitable ....

[Mars Man]

Yes, you have touched upon one big problem there, the history. It is quite certain a thing that the tribes who had inhabited the land from way back before the tribes of Abram's decsendents who had moved into the general area had started to fight for control, were Cannanite peoples. Of course they were not Muslem, for there had been no Islam at that time, and my guess is that if Islam had moved into the area at that time, the same thing would have happened--a killing off of them for their wicked and godless ways would have occured.

By the time the kingdom of David had been concretized, a certain area of land, Israel, had been seen as being Jewish land. The Assyrians took it for a while, (or at least part of it) then the Babylonians, the Medes and Persians kind broke up Babylonian control of it, then the Greeks controled it, afterwhich the Romans took over. Did I miss anyone?

If we can consider--while we are talking about history (and there's always room for 'if's in such talk)--that the religious leaders and socially strong among the Jewish people had not revolted against Rome, that little plot of land would have been Jewish up until the late 6th century or so, when the warring leaders of Islam likely would have pushed into it, and taken control. In that case even, the Crusades would likely have occured as recorded...but to no avail. And of course, if Hitler had not taken his crazy course against the people of that religious belief-system and heredity, the nation state of Israel would probably not have been suggested by the winning parties of that war--had it happened.

So, whose land is it really, historically speaking? How far back would we have to go? That's why I personally reason that in trying to reach a compromise today, we cannot include nor give consideration to historical claims, to any degree...not even in the 19th century. We have to put all history aside, and take a snapshot still life look at the very present, and come up with a working compromise.

The first thing I would suggest, would be education to eradicate the tendency to think of any area of the land as historically belonging to any one group or governance.

[scorpion da black]

i will give you a short story...
the Argentinian people claimed the Falkland islands as historically theirs, so did the British.
we have two people claiming the right to have the land....
some will side with Britain and some will side with the Argentines...
no one can know who this land is for sure...
how it was solved?
through war, one side overpowered the other...
now the battling sides of the middle east will either have to cancel the one another and the victor claims this land. or we can have a peaceful solution where the land can be shared...
as much as i am unsatisfied with that idea...it is the best way...
a war in the middle east isn't like a war in any other spot on earth, it could spark world war 3...
a compromise should be found ...or a war where one part completely annihilates the other and that thought is outrageous!

another issue is trust....if the Palestinians do any more compromising; what ensures that the Israelis will do the same?
the Palestinians gave a lot of compromising in the history of negotiation with Israel. like camp David and Oslo ...and yet there was no solution...
every Arab is doubtful about Annapolis ...what if the flaws of previous negotiations happen again...where the Palestinians compromised a lot of their rights and lands and still returned empty handed.
i look to the negotiations with hope but yet great doubt and prejudice.

[Mars Man]

Yes, I well remember that politically worked-up conflict over that small Island group down there. Even in that conflict the same principle could be applied. Of course the most basic result is that the land belonged to neither the UK nor Argentina.

However, as you have gone into some detail to show, regarding that patch of earth there in the around the Jordan river area, it again becomes clear that what is most needed is an education program to help all peoples there learn that the land doesn't belong to anyone ! That's the first step. The next step would be to remove borders and walls all the while having the local seats of government relinquish some degree of power to the United Nations.

[pugtm]

Yes, you have touched upon one big problem there, the history. It is quite certain a thing that the tribes who had inhabited the land from way back before the tribes of Abram's decsendents who had moved into the general area had started to fight for control, were Cannanite peoples. Of course they were not Muslem, for there had been no Islam at that time, and my guess is that if Islam had moved into the area at that time, the same thing would have happened--a killing off of them for their wicked and godless ways would have occured.
By the time the kingdom of David had been concretized, a certain area of land, Israel, had been seen as being Jewish land. The Assyrians took it for a while, (or at least part of it) then the Babylonians, the Medes and Persians kind broke up Babylonian control of it, then the Greeks controled it, afterwhich the Romans took over. Did I miss anyone?
If we can consider--while we are talking about history (and there's always room for 'if's in such talk)--that the religious leaders and socially strong among the Jewish people had not revolted against Rome, that little plot of land would have been Jewish up until the late 6th century or so, when the warring leaders of Islam likely would have pushed into it, and taken control. In that case even, the Crusades would likely have occured as recorded...but to no avail. And of course, if Hitler had not taken his crazy course against the people of that religious belief-system and heredity, the nation state of Israel would probably not have been suggested by the winning parties of that war--had it happened.
So, whose land is it really, historically speaking? How far back would we have to go? That's why I personally reason that in trying to reach a compromise today, we cannot include nor give consideration to historical claims, to any degree...not even in the 19th century. We have to put all history aside, and take a snapshot still life look at the very present, and come up with a working compromise.
The first thing I would suggest, would be education to eradicate the tendency to think of any area of the land as historically belonging to any one group or governance.
the maccabees took over and created a dynasty for 100 years between Rome and greece

[Goldiegirl]

They've been fighting for years upon years there. I don't believe there is any way to make peace there. There will never be compromise as that would mean each side would have to lose a little, whether it's land, power, money. I also get the feeling that as much as everyone talks that they want peace, ultimately, that's not what is wanted. The only real peace is when one side annihilates the other. But then I am sure we will be in another world war.

[pugtm]

its already happened and we are in that war which incidentally is the final war that starts of the messianic era. the war of gog and magog.

[centrajapan]

Israel-Palestine conflict is very easy to solve. Israel pulls back to 1967 borders. Palestine gets East Jerusalem as their capital give freedom to the Palestinians in return a normalisation to Israel by all Arab countries.

Israel, US does nto want peace they are fine with conflict management. The millitary industry is big business. It makes it much more lucrative for the powerful people in US not to have peace.

[Mars Man]

the maccabees took over and created a dynasty for 100 years between Rome and greece

That's right ! I did leave someone out. Oh well...

I seriously doubt that take on Gog and Magog. Also I don't really think the simple steps that centrajapan san has spelled out will do either...unless, at least, a major education overhaul were to be set up and carried out (by all parties).

A more rounded out, fair and balanced education in a large area of subjects would first have to take place. That would more plausibly lessen the rigidity between in- and out-group. If that could be set into motion, then after some time, what centrajapan san has laid out can surely work--although I'd still suggest going even further...remove all borders and give more control to the UN. (yeah, I've been a dreamer all along, just like John (as in Lennon) has spelled out for us)

[RegDunlap]

The thing is, the Palestinians ALREADY have a country to return to. It's called "Jordan".

It is easy to forget that the plight ofthe Palestinians has more to do with their fellow Arabs than with the Israelis. After all, it was the Arab League that viciously invaded Israel in 1948, attempted to exterminate every Jew there, and encouraged the Palestinians to leaveso that the slaughter would be easier. In the time since, the Palestinians have been kept caged up by their "brothers" in religion and culture. Refused rights and citizenship, denied employment, and kept in squalor.

[Mars Man]

After all, it was the Arab League that viciously invaded Israel in 1948, ... While that cannot be denied, I would strongly argue, again, that as we discuss what will amount to middle ground, we will have to set 'history' aside, as that can never clear up the future possibles.

Also, let's do be careful not to let the thread slide off-topic. Thanks !

ps I guess I could say 'Welcome to JREF' RegDunlap san, but alas, it has no meaning.

[centrajapan]

The thing is, the Palestinians ALREADY have a country to return to. It's called "Jordan".

Not! Palestinians are not leaving. Ethnic cleansing is not tolerated these days. I am actually in favor of a 1 state solution where Jews, Palestinian Arabs wether they are Muslims, Christians or Jews get equal treatment. 1 person 1 vote.

If not that Palestinians have already agreed to make a state consisting of only 20% of historic Palestine divided into 3 and Israel woun't even give them that.

[RegDunlap]

Not! Palestinians are not leaving. Ethnic cleansing is not tolerated these days. I am actually in favor of a 1 state solution where Jews, Palestinian Arabs wether they are Muslims, Christians or Jews get equal treatment. 1 person 1 vote.
If not that Palestinians have already agreed to make a state consisting of only 20% of historic Palestine divided into 3 and Israel woun't even give them that.
Well, of the original Mandate of Palestine , the Arabs got something like 60%. They THEN got a big chunk of the remainder upon the formation of Israel. they THEN went to war to try and steal the last bit. Fortunately, they lost. Having lost (repeatedly), they cannot now try and claim what they originally tried to take by force.

So, you favour a one state solution? That puts you in the same camp as Iran, Syria, Hamas, and Fatah.

The voting you talk about? Already happens in Israel my friend. Pity it doesnt happen in the surrounding nations...

[centrajapan]

Well, of the original Mandate of Palestine , the Arabs got something like 60%. They THEN got a big chunk of the remainder upon the formation of Israel. they THEN went to war to try and steal the last bit. Fortunately, they lost. Having lost (repeatedly), they cannot now try and claim what they originally tried to take by force.
So, you favour a one state solution? That puts you in the same camp as Iran, Syria, Hamas, and Fatah.
The voting you talk about? Already happens in Israel my friend. Pity it doesnt happen in the surrounding nations...

I will quote Ben Gurion.

If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

The Zionists came into a land which was already inhabited by others. It was an outright theft of property. Israel is guilty of etnic cleansing.

Palestine had democratic elections, didn't they? And Hamas won. Incase you don't know Palestinian politics. There is Fateh and Hamas. US supports Fateh. So how can Fateh and Hamas all have the same label?

Israel can either annex the rest of Palestine or give freedom to Palestinians. It is not difficult. Racial discrimination, oppression, segregation is out of fashion.

[Mars Man]

I do not see anything in the immediately above posts that tend to lead to some point on how any compromise can be met without dragging the idea for such through history...which simply will not work.

If there were any strong supporting evidence that relying on history were important for reaching the goal of a compromise, please do present it, but I am rather sure it will utterly fail. We cannot go back far enough, and have any win/win situation.

AGAIN...LET'S BE CAREFUL NOT TO LET IT SLIDE OFF-TOPIC too much.

[RegDunlap]

To get back on topic, there cant be any compromise in the region until the stain of radical Islam is cleansed from the area. Once the various kleptocracies are replaced by representative government, and the rule of law begins to gain respect, THEN the conditions will be right to start thinking about a solution.

The treatment of the Palestinians, particularly by their fellow Arabs, is a sin. It needs to be addressed.

The basic right to existence of Israel as a sovereign and free nation also needs to be loudly and publicly guaranteed by its neighbours.

Until that time, blood will flow.

[centrajapan]

The treatment of the Palestinians, particularly by their fellow Arabs, is a sin. It needs to be addressed.

So is the treatement of the Palestinians by Israel. remember it was Israel who created this problem.

To solve a problem one has to deal with the cause. This is human nature.

The basic right to existence of Israel as a sovereign and free nation also needs to be loudly and publicly guaranteed by its neighbours.

If Israel agrees to pull back to the international recognised borders which are stated by the UN res 242 every Arab country have said that they will normalise their relationship. So what is Israel waiting for?

[RegDunlap]

So is the treatement of the Palestinians by Israel. remember it was Israel who created this problem.
To solve a problem one has to deal with the cause. This is human nature.
If Israel agrees to pull back to the international recognised borders which are stated by the UN res 242 every Arab country have said that they will normalise their relationship. So what is Israel waiting for?
There you go dashing back into the past again.

The problem was created by the Arab League when they invaded Israel, a sovereign nation recognized and created by the UN. Instead of using diplomacy, the Arabs mistakenly thought they could take the easy path and murder the Jews, thus freeing up the land for their Palestinian brothers.

I agree that Israel isnt perfect by any means, but I would rather be a Palestinian in Israel than a Palestinian in Egypt, or Syria, or Saudi Arabia, etc.

[pugtm]

thanks and i agree. i would favor a different compromise. they get gaza and if they behave we let them have a little more. but since we would recognize them as a nation state if so much as a bullet comes out of their it is a declaration of war and we go all out on them. since they do not follow geneva conventions they have no rights under them and yeah. my solution. it gives them a stick and a carrot. behave and you get more dont and we will go back to fighting. easy and simple as that.
and yes jordan is part of palestine the british stole from us. let them go there if they dislike it so much.

[Mars Man]

With this educational program I am speaking of...and I will life a finger in trying to deny that it's an idea WELL ahead of its time...will right from the start, begin tackling this 'we' .vs. 'they' mentality. That is the starting point. There is no is no they, only 'we,' you see?!!

[centrajapan]

they get gaza and if they behave we let them have a little more.

Palestinians are being oppressed. Just as blacks in South Africa, African Americans in USA were and you say if they behave. Would it not be better to ask the people to stop oppression than to tell people how to stop resisting oppression.

I am all in favour of educating people. And the fact remains. Israel is a racist apartheid country which practice severe racial discrimination.

Just what part of this is it that people especially Americans don't get?

[Hezam]

To get back on topic, there cant be any compromise in the region until the stain of radical Islam is cleansed from the area

you must apologize ...you heart all Muslims ...

[Hezam]

thanks and i agree. i would favor a different compromise. they get gaza and if they behave we let them have a little more. but since we would recognize them as a nation state if so much as a bullet comes out of their it is a declaration of war and we go all out on them. since they do not follow geneva conventions they have no rights under them and yeah. my solution. it gives them a stick and a carrot. behave and you get more dont and we will go back to fighting. easy and simple as that.
and yes jordan is part of palestine the british stole from us. let them go there if they dislike it so much.

Stuped ..your mind look like the Children .....

it is bigger than you think ...

If you have a good ideas put it here but ideas like these are not serious...

[RegDunlap]

Palestinians are being oppressed. Just as blacks in South Africa, African Americans in USA were No, they arent. I dont recall blacks having voting rights and members of parliament in either of those countries.
I am all in favour of educating people. And the fact remains. Israel is a racist apartheid country which practice severe racial discrimination.
Just what part of this is it that people especially Americans don't get?

Education is a good subject. Why not take the time to see exactly what 'education' that Palestinian kids get in Gaza and the west bank? Shocking.

[Void]

to Mars Man sama


it again becomes clear that what is most needed is an education program to
help all peoples there learn that the land doesn't belong to anyone !


may i ask stupid question(the most important to me here): people where? in the Jordan river area? about this particualar piece of land? or people all over the world about any piece of land?


The next step would be to remove borders and walls all the while having the local seats of government relinquish some degree of power to the United Nations.


to my not so humble opinion UN turned into toothless and impotent organisation quite a time ago... it`s rather a "(p/m)uppet show" by now. World needs its (UN`s) complete reengineering or absolutely new institution with revised programs and methods


I would strongly argue, again, that as we discuss what will amount to middle
ground, we will have to set 'history' aside, as that can never clear up the
future possibles.


i am sorry, but this is nearly impossible (like to stop the ocean fro rushing to the shore). Today doesn`t come from nowhere, it come from the past which is history. And today is part of the history for tomorrow. If we will not learn
lessons of the history today we`re bound to repeat same mistakes tomorrow
(on either side)

--------------------------
to centrajapan


Israel-Palestine conflict is very easy to solve. Israel pulls back to 1967
borders. Palestine gets East Jerusalem as their capital give freedom to the
Palestinians in return a normalisation to Israel by all Arab countries.


i think this is a greate oversimplification of the issue. Even if such withdrawval would be possible, it`d just add more fuel to the current fire

-----------------
to RegDunlap


The thing is, the Palestinians ALREADY have a country to return to.
It's called "Jordan".


very popular proposal, but somehow jordanians don`t consider themselves as
palestinians. And many palestinians want to return to their OWN homes they were once expelled from. Want as badly as jewish people coming to the Palestine at the beginning of XX century long before 1948


It is easy to forget that the plight ofthe Palestinians has more to do with
their fellow Arabs than with the Israelis. After all, it was the Arab League
that viciously invaded Israel in 1948, attempted to exterminate every Jew
there, and encouraged the Palestinians to leaveso that the slaughter would
be easier. In the time since, the Palestinians have been kept caged up by
their "brothers" in religion and culture. Refused rights and citizenship,
denied employment, and kept in squalor.


true to some extent, but just to some. Arab League gets its profit from current palestinian case and never attempted too much to solve the problem. Palestinians ran away partluy because of this brotherly lie, partly because of national cleansing (jewish expansion wasn`t all white and fluffy, i`ll bring links later)


To get back on topic, there cant be any compromise in the region until the
stain of radical Islam is cleansed from the area.


it might be a surprise for you but judaism is quite radical also. And by the way, what is the instrument of cleansing %) (besides education offered by MM and some arabian bloggers. again - links later)?

---------------------------

With this educational program I am speaking of...and I will life a finger in
trying to deny that it's an idea WELL ahead of its time...will right from the
start, begin tackling this 'we' .vs. 'they' mentality. That is the starting
point. There is no is no they, only 'we,' you see?!!


According to Wallerstein current world system is in a stage of deep crisis. Besides, due to the technological development our world becomes much smaller than we tend to think, but the gaps grow bigger and cause the tragic eruptions. You can`t solve the problem by trying to give "we" for just israelis and palestinians. The whole world devided into "us" and "them" (one don`t have to go far, just read jref forum) and the remedy therefore must be global


will return to the subject later

[Mars Man]

Void sama, this is the problem, you see. What you have said, is, in some overtones of the situation and in some respects of my earlier posts, is correct.

The UN is toothless because the governments of the world are selfish. The borders are persistent because the national groups are small-minded. AND yes, as I had tried to spell out (and found error in my English, even) this is an idea that is so ahead of its time that we can call it 'impossible.'

Nevertheless, I stand by my idea. To really achieve a compromise in the Middle East, we--as a human race, so to speak--will have to come to terms with our being just one basic animal of a single life duration per personper group, and that we belong to the earth rather than the earth belonging to us. We ourselves will definitely pass into other forms or being before the sun finally finishes the life forms that are.

To drag any historical factor up is a waste of time.

[centrajapan]

No, they arent. I dont recall blacks having voting rights and members of parliament in either of those countries.

You see, Palestinians living in Palestine have no power to choose their own destiniy. Just as with African Americans back in the days when they were slvaes. Surely there were more powerful people within the American African slaves. They were leaders but still slaves. The same with Palestine. You have Arafat who was a leader. But a leader of what? Palestinians were dnied basic human rights they had no country. You could compare it to a Bantustant in former South Africa.

Just curious. Do you support oppression?

Nevertheless, I stand by my idea. To really achieve a compromise in the Middle East, we--as a human race, so to speak--will have to come to terms with our being just one basic animal of a single life duration per personper group, and that we belong to the earth rather than the earth belonging to us. We ourselves will definitely pass into other forms or being before the sun finally finishes the life forms that are.

This is over simplifying things. It borders stupidity. Israel gives freedom to Palestine in return a normalisation of all Arab countries to Israel. Its very straight forward. Not difficult to understand.

The problem with is that you don't know "why" there is a conlfict. To solve a problem one has to understand the reasons for the problem to be able to solve the problem.

[Mars Man]

Just curious. Do you support oppression?

I don't see how this would lead to any conclusion or point on the discussion that should be at hand here. Again, we have to look forward, not backward. Also comparisions as to what may have been for a certain group of people at some time in the past, towards what possibly, or are indeed for a certain group now, are meaningless when it comes to working for a compromise for now...as in near future.

There is no need to compare or search out historical matters. That should be clear enough !

[Void]

...
AND yes, as I had tried to spell out (and found error in my English, even) this is an idea that is so ahead of its time that we can call it 'impossible.'

Nevertheless, I stand by my idea. To really achieve a compromise in the Middle East, we--as a human race, so to speak--will have to come to terms with our being just one basic animal of a single life duration per personper group, and that we belong to the earth rather than the earth belonging to us. We ourselves will definitely pass into other forms or being before the sun finally finishes the life forms that are.
To drag any historical factor up is a waste of time.

the idea might not be ahead of time. As i said this time is shaped today. I just view th ME problem at different angle, and think that the scope of solution must be wider (but, probably, no less idealistic :D )

Waste or not depends on the purpose of rasing "historical arguements"

[RegDunlap]

To really achieve a compromise in the Middle East, we--as a human race, so to speak--will have to come to terms with our being just one basic animal of a single life duration per personper group, and that we belong to the earth rather than the earth belonging to us. We ourselves will definitely pass into other forms or being before the sun finally finishes the life forms that are.
What you seem to be calling for is the eradication of religion from the face of human culture. A pretty far fetched concept, particularly in an area that is home to THREE great religions.

As for the "right of return", does that ALSO include a "right of return" for the more than half a million Jews who were expelled from various Arab/Muslimcountries in the wake of the1948 war? Can they go home too, and freely practice their faith?

[Void]

What you seem to be calling for is the eradication of religion from the face of human culture. A pretty far fetched concept, particularly in an area that is home to THREE great religions.


as well as eradication of politics and current economic concepts altogether with religion :D for the sake of building new religion, after all we are just humans :D

[centrajapan]

Why not take the time to see exactly what 'education' that Palestinian kids get in Gaza and the west bank? Shocking

What Israelis are doing to not only to the kids in Gaza but the entire people is even more shocking. Thats the reason why people become extreme. Oppression is not an answer. Treat humans humanly and not like animals.

Let me quote Nelson Mandela.

The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not just an issue of military occupation and Israel is not a country that was established "normally" and happened to occupy another country in 1967. Palestinians are not struggling for a "state" but for freedom, liberation and equality, just like we were struggling for freedom in South Africa.

[Mars Man]

Yes, you (RegDunlap san) are correct there regarding the religous stance. You are not correct regarding the rigjht of return, unless I am taking on a matter totally not addressable to my position, however, because there is nothing to return...

I will defend my position for the invalidity of historical arguments by showing the never ending resorting to past historical states.

As the most recent issue of Science has reported on, in that general area, there are a number of spots which give us substantial evidence of give and take fighting as early as 6000 years ago !! We have no choice but to put history aside. It will be much more of a burden than help.

I will admit, however, that many people would not be able to clear that hurdle.

[pugtm]

whoever proposed the idea that there is no them and us there is only us is wrong beyond beleif. there is a them and an us and they are two separate groups and jews take great pride in that. it is wrong to make no distinction because that lowers what we have done and minimizes it. also Palestinians in israel are treated far better than any muslims in their own country. they even have memebers in our parliment. does iran have female memebers of parliment or jewish??

[centrajapan]

also Palestinians in israel are treated far better than any muslims in their own country. they even have memebers in our parliment. does iran have female memebers of parliment or jewish??

This is not true. Palestinians in Israel face severe discrimination. Besides no Arab country was made on the expense of the Palestinians. If you take a stance against racial discrimination and oppression then Israel should be no different. If Israel cared so much about the Palestinians then why not give all of them Israeli passports or atleast give the Palestinians in the occupied territories freedom?

Israel treat the Palestinains worse than any Muslim country in the world because they took away land cleansed that land free from Palestinians and then caged them and now are placing them in Bantustants while cleansing more land on a daily basis.

[Goldiegirl]

Separation between church and state could help this area achieve some level of stability in ALL the Middle Eastern countries, and for all countries as a matter of fact.

[pugtm]

possible but unlikely to happen can you imagine irans leaders allowing democracy or saudi arabia or yemen? i certainly can't. at least not anytime soon. which is why America should support those elements in those countries that are trying to overthrow those governments.

[Derfel]

I'll go further, everyone should contribute to getting rid of theocracy.

[Goldiegirl]

One big reason there will be no peace is the fact the Muslim based countries want to not just get rid of the Jews but to annihilate them and clear them not just from the land but from existing at all. The rest of us non-Muslims are merely tolerated. The goal is to change everybody over to their religion. That has to stop in order for there to peace. Every human has the right to chose what religion they want to be, I don't need to be converted to anything to find my own peace.

[Mycernius]

I am locking this thread for a while and give you all a while to calm down and reflect on what has been said. This is degenerating into an attack on a personal basis. Please keep it civil, and I also suggest a little research and less knee jerk reaction is required.

[Mycernius]

I am re-opening this thread. If it degenerates into a mud slinging match again it will be locked for good and members will recieve infractions for their behaviour. You have be warned.

[Hezam]

which is why America should support those elements in those countries that are trying to overthrow those governments

you mean Arerica should support the terrorism !!

once they said we must to fight the terrorists and now you said America should support them !!


I am wondeing !!

[Derfel]

America is supporting the rebels, not the terrorists.

[centrajapan]

A quote by one of the most respected persons of this century. Nelson Mandela.

Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.....Palestine is one of the great moral causes of our time

Every peace initiative since 1967 has had UN Resolution 242 as the basis which is withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.

This resolution was unanimously adopted by the UN Security Council. Including USA. During the relatively peaceful 90s. Arafat agreed to make a state of Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem according to the 1967 borders. What does Israel do? They double the amount of settlements in the Occupied Territories.

I am no expert on international law. However this means that every single settlement in the Occupied Territories is against international law. Israel is on a daily basis confiscating more and more land far into the West Bank. What Israel is doing is. For instance say there is a Palestinian farmer. One day the Israel government declares this land to be Israel's land. They basically take it away and declare the property "state land"

The settlements are then connected with high ways to Israel proper while it traps the Palestinians between the settlements and the walls making life for them miserable.

While US agreed that Israel should go back to 1967 borders they keep on funding Israel to maintain the occupation. The longest occupation in this world btw. No people likes to be occupied by a foreign power. Including the Palestinians.

[RegDunlap]

Mandela was an idiot. You do yourself no favours by quoting him, Centra.

[Derfel]

I wouldn't put it that harshly... but let us admit, Mandela would support the underdog in pretty much any situation without even thinking. Without a guess about whats going on.

[centrajapan]

Mandela was an idiot.

Well, I hope South Africa reintroduce the apartheid system. It was such a great system wasn't it?

Jimmy Carter compared Israel's policy to be worse than the apartheid.

When Israel does occupy this territory deep within the West Bank, and connects the 200-or-so settlements with each other, with a road, and then prohibits the Palestinians from using that road, or in many cases even crossing the road, this perpetrates even worse instances of apartness, or apartheid, than we witnessed even in South Africa

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=799202&contrassID=25&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1

[RegDunlap]

What I said about Mandela? Double it and add sauce for Dhimmi Carter.

So,Centra,do Jews also have the "right of return"? Can they go back to the countries where they used to live, like Morocco or Iran or Libya,

Nearly one million people in total.

[centrajapan]

No one is saying that every Israeli Jew to go back to whereever they came from. So I am not sure why you bring this up. The reality is. There has been a wide recognition among basically every UN member that Israel pulls back to the 1967 borders according to international law. Once Israel goes back to the internationally agreed borders Palestinians are ready to naromalise their relationship with Israel together with every Arab country.

Israel does not have the law on their side. It is actually very easy to solve this conflict had it not been for Israel ignoring every single UN resolution and respected international law.

[Mars Man]

I am happy to see this thread back in action again !! I really hope that all read what Mycernius has written above, and this immediately following paragraph before I go into my basic post here:

I originally opened this thread based on ideas and hopes which I have towards a future social state, and the conversation between two members' discussion in the 'All Things Japan' forum area. The theme of this thread, as well as it's topic and discussion area, is focused on what would make a compromise in the Middle East. That would surely require some embedding on some points, but please keep in mind that discussing history will lead to nowhere, and that just complaining about the ills or wrong doings of this or that local government in the area, will probably end up in circular patterns of debate. I would hope to see more synergizing here !! What WOULD make for a compromise?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *


I have not been much of a fan of the general Israeli government for some time now. To a larger degree, I have taken the ills caused by that general government to be real, and to be problematic. That said, however, I tend to feel that the US/UK push to give a nation-state to the Jewish people was about as altruistic a movement as any great political move towards a certain people, down on their luck, could be. If such altruistic emotions had been equally shared by the local nations of that time, things may well have gone more smoothly.

Now, however, it is clear that there is far too much tension. While not all elements of tension may be eradicated, a good compromise would be nice.

I would say that as a first step, the concept that any of the land belongs to any single national/tribal group should have to be balanced by the concept that all the planet is that to which we 'belong.'

As a second step, the divisive concept that the three religious belief-systems are non-inclusive would have to be balanced by the concept that none of the three can definitively claim validity over the others in the final analysis.

As a third step, all the general governments would have to relinquish a much larger degree of sovereignty to the UN.

The vehicle to promote and activate these changes would be a well balanced, objective and open-minded education system that would be equal to all populations of all the nation-states involved. I hope to look at these too.

[Derfel]

We're sitting in front of our computers, in relative peace, comfort, obviously we view problems as people who live in comfort and peace, but the war-torn Israel can't allow himself to show any signs of weakness, or willingness to make a compromise, otherwise there will be no compromise, but simply a retreat on their behalf.

[Mars Man]

..the war-torn Israel can't allow himself to show any signs of weakness, or willingness to make a compromise, otherwise there will be no compromise, but simply a retreat on their behalf.

Yes, as goes the general homo sapien patriarchal social groups template of problem solving. (as is similar in most animal templates too) How long would it take an education program to radicate that template?

[pugtm]

its all very easy for you people to judge on this or that mars man when you dont have friends and relatives dying in israel on a daily basis. nor have you lived there. you dont know how badly they want us dead and that their culture is rotten to the core right now with hatred for us. it has nothing to do with israel taking land did the hebron massacre
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebron29.html
which took place in 1929 have something to do with stealing land from them or antisemitism?

[centrajapan]

Israel can protect themselves as much as they want from the 1967 borders. If Israel wants peace then what it shouldn't do is annex more land on a daily basis in the Occupied Territories against international law.

We live in on Earth where land is dived into countries. We have borders. Israel is the only country in the world which has not defined its final borders yet. That is why Israel keeps annexing more land. against international agreements and law.

Israel can exist as much as it wants aslong as Israel pulls back to 1967 borders and give freedom to the Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories.

The other alternative is to annex the entire Occupied Territories.

Perhaps some of the Arabic speakers on this forum could come with a few inputs here. As far as I know, "Intifada" is an Arabic word derived from the root nafada, meaning "to shake". It means to shake off .It doesn't mean to destroy Israel rather to fight for freedom, break free from oppression.

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/faqs/35.shtml

[Derfel]

Should Israel pull back terrorist activity would still remain intense, antagonism is a plant that cannot be weeded out, now how does pulling back benefit him in that case? It doesn't, and as long as it doesn't Israel won't pull back.

[Hezam]

Perhaps some of the Arabic speakers on this forum could come with a few inputs here. As far as I know, "Intifada" is an Arabic word derived from the root nafada, meaning "to shake". It means to shake off .It doesn't mean to destroy Israel rather to fight for freedom, break free from oppression


Yes ...that is right ..It doesn't mean to destroy..

you can say ( he is shaking off dust )

and thanks for reply ..

[Mars Man]

Pugtum san, please. I ask you to really think about it in depth, as I ask all others joining in to do as well ! We are looking forward in time, to a point at which there is an agreed upon compromise in effect. We are talking about what steps must be taken to achieve such a goal. We are not, I repeat are not talking about what may or may not be happening at this moment, because we know, for a fact, that at this moment there is no all encompassing compromise of such nature that understanding and inter-state relationships are functioning.

Why is it that so many of you posting here cannot get the concept across? Really...our discussion here is not about history. That will lead us nowhere. (now can you can't the number of times I have said that? And what? you still do not believe me? Ok, then the only thing I can say is to wait another some 40 years (as seems to be the case with some) or another 20 something (for others) and you'll have learned exactly what I mean !!!)

If pugtm, you were really concerned about anyone dying due to the instability in that region, then you would be interested in a compromise by which there would be no fighting other than average crime rates...as experienced by any country in the world, basically. And that would go for all the other posters here who live in that general area !!

We live in on Earth where land is dived into countries. We have borders.

Ok gentlemen and ladies (though few are posting here at the moment) here is another question (the first one [asked just above, which was ignored] will come up again, you can bet on it) Why is it that a single planet need to be divided into territories? And, uh, should we be sure to mark ours with our waste liquids? (just so everyone will be able to smell the difference?)

Why do we need to superimpose an out-group in order to maintain our in-group? AND How long would it take an education program to eradicate this template?

I hope to get some thought going on this...rather than just a bunch of uneventful, non-unifiable attempts at justifying the present situation.

[scorpion da black]

Derfel why do you always see things from your point of view, or how israeli people are being torn out by war?? we are the ones who were mostly slaughtered!!
we had 1200 civilian deaths last summer alone...in one month of fighting...

still i would take a compromise and have a peaceful solution if possible....( again i say this is not of cowerdice, i am more than willing to fight - but this is out of the persue of greater good to human kind )
killing is in no way good...
personally, this may insult some people on the other side, but i dont even want israel to exist...i believe this land is ours and no one else's....
israel doesnt want arabs around either...
but the fact is we are here...and they are here...
so what will we do about it???

either two: fight and drain life, kill, slaughter, hurras, crush, spill blood, make life hell.

or solve this peacfully by compromise from both sides.

please dont say what is not nessecary...no one knows how war feels till he live through it....i have no fear for nothing...but i have great sorrow and grief everytime i remember the image of a child dead right before me....

plus i think it is time for israel to compromise, the palestinians compromised a lot in Oslo and camp david...so much!
now they are left with 20 % of historical palestine...and even this israel isnt willing to grant them!
israel should compromise if they wanted peace...if they didnt then you should all record to history that israel was the side that ruined peace.

[Mars Man]

... israel should compromise if they wanted peace.

Rather than this, it would have to be, without any doubt whatsoever, ALL parties involved compromising. It is not up to only the general government/hard-line religious belief-system's adherents of Isreal, but of each and every other nation-state in the region ! Otherwise, it will never, ever happen ! Enough of time has passed to show that to be the case.

[scorpion da black]

mars man sama
there is a difference between intuition and hopes...

i hope there will be peace, but my intuition says blood will fill our days to come.

[Mars Man]

Yet, we are basically discussing neither 'hopes' nor 'intuitions' here. Here, we are discussing steps for a compromise. Therefore, in order to do that, we have to lay out concrete propositions which, if implemented, would lead to a compromise.

Would you not agree, that two people simply standing around with guns pointed at each others head shouting at the other to lay down their weapon first, in a heated sense of anger and desperation, would really lead to any quick compromise on the situation other than that of the situation itself? Surely not ! We have to try to see what steps might be needed for a compromise...or are you arguing against a more productive compromise than mutual hatred and distrust?

[centrajapan]

ALL parties involved compromising

MarsMan. Palestinians have already compromised. They are willing to make a state divided into 3 of 20% of historic Palestine. What more is there to compromise? The other alternative is to merge the country into 1 and give equal rights to everyone whether they are Palestinian MUslims, Christians or Jews. Both Semitic Jews and Zionist Jews.

[scorpion da black]

steps that should be taken to start a positive relation between paletine and israel:

- israel backs to 1967 lines
- palestinians pulls all arms from militias and only keeps it in hands of military to be made.
- palestinians rerbuild their infra structurs and ports...and increases welfare, because when welfare is found, hostility is decreased.
- palestinians should adobt a healthy educational system that preaches greater human values...education wipes away ignorance and gives chance for problems to be solved by conversation not by hands...kind like educated people in this forum who are ready to have a healthy debate.
- israel should back out all military forces from frontlines with palestinian territories, and focus on giving the same educational awarness to stop the hatered, rather than have more zionist extremists.
- building the fundimentals of commercial relations between israel and palestine...economy can heal politics...when welfare is found due to trade people will pay less attention to differences and fighting.

these are some steps that can be taken

[centrajapan]

I heard there are more university graduates among Palestinians than among any other people in the Middle East.

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0377-919X(197524)4%3A2%3C158%3ATRFOTP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-J

There is already an academic boycott in many European countries of Israel. As weak as the Palestistinians are they have one triumph card. They are the gate keepers of the Middle East.

[scorpion da black]

very true, palestinians are some of the brightest of all students...
and they have the greatest willing ness to study hard even with many majors.
this due to the feeling of valunrability.
palestinians has no goverment to take care of them and protect them and their rights...so they feel like they have to be strong to face the tides...strong to take theirs.
and education is that streangth.

that shows just how amazing these people are.
from all lebanon i salute them.

[Mars Man]

I still say you guys are really missing the point. We have no choice here people, but to understand the fine nuances of the fuller concept which lies within the word 'compromise.' We are not talking about 'offers' by one of the minimum of two, we are talking about a compromise of which all parties have agreed upon and stand firmly dedicated to. At the moment there is no compromise at all, and there hasn't been one from the very founding of that nation-state, Israel.

Gentlemen, it is most clear that the borders of the original nation-state of Israel had been meaningless. If that had not been the case, they would surely still be in place, but, then again, that is not my point. My point is that we do not need borders !!

The other alternative is to merge the country into 1 and give equal rights to everyone whether they are Palestinian MUslims, Christians or Jews. Both Semitic Jews and Zionist Jews.

This is getting close to what is needed, but still not enough.

I like the gest of your proposals, scorpion da black san, that is going in the right direction too. Still, I would argue that the education program will have to start first. As I had drawn out by analogy in a post above, the parties have to simultaneously be educated so as to act in equal, sychronized steps together in a balancing act.

For this reason, the education system will have to tackle the very fabric of the common person on the street, it will have to go above present relgious belief-systems in authority, and will have to be spread evenly between classes and sexes.

[centrajapan]

I still think you are missing the point MarsMan. The question I ask you is why is not Israel willing to compromise? Terje Rød Larsen who was an UN broker in the ME said the reason why Americans show less sympathy towards the palestinians is because they don't know what it is like to have their country taken away as Americans together with Israelis are conqurors. One is trying to conquor the other is resisting. So what is the natural step for a compromise? Stop trying to conquor more so that we don't need to resist.

[Mars Man]

So, let me see here, then, centrajapan san, are you talking about something historical in nature?

[centrajapan]

Yes I am. Not only historic but because of historic parallels there are more similarities between that culture and any country which is new. Israel is a new world country. They might have old ancient scripts used to their own advantage which says it is theirs but Israel is still a new country. The flip side of it is that no old culture is static. NO culture is. So if they both start to understand better the dynamics of the old and the new things might work better than they do now.

If you take other examples of new world countries. Australia, USA, it was a fairly rough fight to get to where they are now. The struggle against Israel-Palestine could be very well compared with USA, Australia in many ways but due to the struggle being 2-400 years later and on a different place this battle is differnet from the previous.

[Mars Man]

OK, so then what can be applied from the knowledge of the portions of history that can be agreed on by all parties involved, so as to cause the rise of a desire to put history behind them, and work for the future by concrete actions in the present?

[scorpion da black]

i am afraid the same fait that the red indians faced upon the creation of america awaits the palestinians after the creation of israel.
every new world state has to demolish the previous nation and its people to be.

[Mars Man]

i am afraid the same fait that the red indians faced upon the creation of america awaits the palestinians after the creation of israel.
every new world state has to demolish the previous nation and its people to be.

OK, so how would that be used in working on reaching a compromise, then?

[scorpion da black]

that depends on the will of the main strong nations as US, Uk, france...etc.

would they allow such replacment of nations to happen again?or will they push into compromise.
neither Israel nor Palestinians seem willing to compromise...will they fairly be persued to do so?
and i used the word fairly because if the great nations choose to push one side to compromise and not the other, more trouble and greater havoc will happen.

[pugtm]

face it mars man this thread is going nowhere just lock it up for good.
the war will end when either we are gone or they are.

[Mars Man]

LOL !! So I had been right all along, then, huh? I mean way back in highschool when thinking over the problems there all the way up to my days at the U of Arizona where, after some time, a ruckus broke out among some students there, even.

My solution was simple. Just put a great, very great big wall around the entire area, letting not a single person out or in, after having let all those who had been willing to renounce the value and precidence of their respective religio-cultural idiosyncracies to that of the concept of one world, one people, out. Then, what transpired within the walled off zone, would be of no matter to the rest of the world.

So...I was correct after all, huh? HUH?

[scorpion da black]

yeah you were right mars man sama....as funny as it sounds...and as sad as it sounds.

we are the red indians, and the Israelis are the settlers.....lets see if america will be found or if the Indians will have more power and are more presistant this time!!!!

[Mars Man]

...as funny as it sounds...and as sad as it sounds.

Yes, and let's not forget, as natural as it is. All animals of such strict social nature do it. That's just the way it goes !

[Derfel]

Well how to put it, we here can pretty much get along most of the time, but the situation in Israel is way way different, we hold no grudge against each other, the antagonism there is so deep that you can't do a thing about it. Its like putting your hand in the mixer, you pull your hand out, but it already cut off your fingers. Reasoning does not work.
And before you misunderstand me, I wish to say that both Arabs and Jews have right to fight, they do because the land belongs to both of them somehow.

[Hezam]

now ...Mars Man sama ...did you realize that they want to close this thread with war ?

they want to finish it by war not by peace !

thanks my friend Mars Man ...

best wishes for you and scorpion da black and centerjapan ^^

[centrajapan]

My solution was simple. Just put a great, very great big wall around the entire area, letting not a single person out or in, after having let all those who had been willing to renounce the value and precidence of their respective religio-cultural idiosyncracies to that of the concept of one world, one people, out. Then, what transpired within the walled off zone, would be of no matter to the rest of the world.

Many countries are calling for a boycott of Israel. It is mainlly due to western countries especially USA's support of Israel that Israel can carry on it's crimes. You don't need to build a wall. But boycott Israel. Cut diplomatic ties. US should stop aiding Israel billions of dollars each year. US is a direct sponsor of Israel's occupation. The reason why US is such a strong supporter of Israel is due to the power Zionists have in US. The mdeia is controlled by the Zionists. America's strongest lobby AIPAC is a Zionist organisation.

While it is perfectly fine to be a Zionist if you believe Jews are greater people than the palestinians their goal is not to prmotoe peace but rather to promote Israel's interests.

Israel does not want to give Israeli citizenship to the Palestinians because then Jews will no longer be a majority and Israel stops being Jewish but it also does not want to give freedom to the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem. This makes Israel a racist apartheid state.

While Palestinians already have agreed to make a state of the remainding 20% of historic Palestine. Israel does not want to do that either. So what they have done since 1967 is having the Occupied Territories under a brutal millitary occupation. It builds new settlements in West bank. Between Palestinian villages. Or more often than not on the expense of the Palestinian towns and villages. That is how Israel was created in the first place. By destroying over 500 towns and villages. The irony of it all is that they still destroy Palestinain towns and villages. They will only take their land away but leave the people out.

Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

This is not just about getting along. This is about making Israel stop aggression and respect international law. As I have said earlier. This conflict is easy to solve had Israel listened to all the resolutions and international laws.

[Hezam]

Many countries are calling for a boycott of Israel. It is mainlly due to western countries especially USA's support of Israel that Israel can carry on it's crimes. You don't need to build a wall. But boycott Israel. Cut diplomatic ties. US should stop aiding Israel billions of dollars each year. US is a direct sponsor of Israel's occupation. The reason why US is such a strong supporter of Israel is due to the power Zionists have in US. The mdeia is controlled by the Zionists. America's strongest lobby AIPAC is a Zionist organisation.

While it is perfectly fine to be a Zionist if you believe Jews are greater people than the palestinians their goal is not to prmotoe peace but rather to promote Israel's interests.

Israel does not want to give Israeli citizenship to the Palestinians because then Jews will no longer be a majority and Israel stops being Jewish but it also does not want to give freedom to the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem. This makes Israel a racist apartheid state.

While Palestinians already have agreed to make a state of the remainding 20% of historic Palestine. Israel does not want to do that either. So what they have done since 1967 is having the Occupied Territories under a brutal millitary occupation. It builds new settlements in West bank. Between Palestinian villages. Or more often than not on the expense of the Palestinian towns and villages. That is how Israel was created in the first place. By destroying over 500 towns and villages. The irony of it all is that they still destroy Palestinain towns and villages. They will only take their land away but leave the people out.

Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

This is not just about getting along. This is about making Israel stop aggression and respect international law. As I have said earlier. This conflict is easy to solve had Israel listened to all the resolutions and international laws.

i am surprized how do you know all that about the middle East while the others do'nt know !!

i am happy to hear that ...i am happy to know that there are somepeople understand

what happens in palestine...

thanks from all my heart dear centerjapan ...

[RegDunlap]

How about boycotting Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the kleptocracies that infest the Middle East instead? Boycotting the one country in the area that is a working democracy is stupidity.

The reason there are so many UN resolutions against Israel is that the UN is biased. There are more than 50 muslim countries at the UN, versus a grand total of one Jewish country. It's a simple numbers game.

Tell me Centra, what exactly have the Arabs done for their poor cousins the Palestinians? Have they given them aid? Jobs? Citizenship? A path out of the cycle of despair that they are in?

Or, have the Saudis and others USED the Palestinians as attack dogs... Kept them poor and hungry and angry.

In the aftermath of WW2, millions of people were displaced all over the world. In Europe, in Asia, in the Middle East, etc. Yet all those populations managed to settle into their new areas and make the best of the situation. All with the exception of the Palestinians. Doesnt that make you think a little?

[Mars Man]

OK, centrajapan san, on two occasions now you have mimicked my wording when calling for your attention to the finer and deeper points. Now, I will ask you to lay down your hand, and finish the game--since it no longer has any value to me.

Go back and look over what you have said very carefully, throughout your entire line of argumentation here, and then come back and tell me if the following is not at the heart of all that you are espousing. And, may I add, be ready to defend it with the best of logical association that you can muster up if you attempt to deny the following!!

The heart of your message, centrajapan, is that a compromise in the Middle East is not wanted by at least one of the parties involved there, by which fact we can conclude that there is NO middle ground for the Middle East--thread finished.

Carlos Santana san, thank you for your observations. However here too, I wish to put you on the spot. What, may I ask is your desire for the Middle East, and how, may I ask can I interpret that from what you have said over the several threads upon which the subject has come up?

If it is actually a compromise that you wish, instead of forever anger, hatred and fighting, what are you willing to accept as a loss? Can you give equal validity to the Jewish religious belief-system's right to claim the right to not follow the laws of Sharia? (if I have misspelled that, I'm sorry)

[scorpion da black]

mars man sama, i think this aught to be a statistic measure...who believes that a compromise is achievable and peace is on the way...
and who believes that blood spilling is the end of the road...

and i will predict that the majority here will choose blood spilling

[Derfel]

Lol okay i've got a dumb solution, they should both enter the EU. (I know thats retarded, its just a joke to make the atmosphere tad bit more comfortable.)

[centrajapan]

The heart of your message, centrajapan, is that a compromise in the Middle East is not wanted by at least one of the parties involved there, by which fact we can conclude that there is NO middle ground for the Middle East--thread finished.

I wanted to spread an awareness about Israel´s daily crime and atrocities. However, I think I understand your point.

Mars Man-san. Accepting that there is no middle ground for peace would be to accept the status quo. I find that to be a very passive apathetic stance which I do not agree with. This is what Israeli government and the US government want us to believe. There is no hope for peace while trying to shove the reasosn for instability under the rug. As more people are getting an awareness the tide is starting to turn.

In South Africa movements against apartheid increased. In the end it even mobalised the concervatives in US and Europe.I am not sure when anti apartheid activitism strted. I think maybe in the 50s, 60s? But the apartheid era did not end until the 90s. There are any factors for why it ended. Both international and domestic pressure helped to put an end to apartheid.

Since 1967 as many as one million have left Israel, and the rate of those refusing to serve in the Israeli army is increasing together with Israeli pilots who refuse to bomb the West Bank and Gaza Strip. This occupation is unsustainable and more Israeli civilians are losing faith in militarism.

http://www.icahd.org/eng/

There are various Israeli groups working in solidarity with the Palestinians and taking a stance against Israel. That link is one of them. Now if more people in US would get an awareness and put pressure on stopping their country sponsoring the occupation things would improve even more. Just that it was an American. Carter who compared Israel with apartheid is indeed a step in the right direction towards peace.

[Hezam]

Carlos Santana san, thank you for your observations. However here too, I wish to put you on the spot. What, may I ask is your desire for the Middle East, and how, may I ask can I interpret that from what you have said over the several threads upon which the subject has come up?

If it is actually a compromise that you wish, instead of forever anger, hatred and fighting, what are you willing to accept as a loss? Can you give equal validity to the Jewish religious belief-system's right to claim the right to not follow the laws of Sharia? (if I have misspelled that, I'm sorry)


I accept the Jewish to live with us but not under Israelian Government

you know there are more than 40.000 Jewish in Yemen ..

they have the right to live wherever but not Killing the Original people ..

If you read our Shareah you will realize the that .........

and thanks my friend Mars Man ^^

[centrajapan]

There is an international recognition that racial segregation should not be tolerated and oppression. Therefore it is hard to understand why it is OK for Israel to carry out these practices. I think the best way for compromise is a boycott. This will send a clear message to the people in Israel that they have to choose and that the Israel's governments practice is not acceptable.

Israel and USA's stance is that it is impossible to have peace. So instaed of trying to work towards justice and peace they have become experts in conflict management and security. People who see this conflict as a cycle of violence is looking from a wrong angle. It is about a people who were dispossesed from a land and a people who have been denied self determination and been oppressed ever since.

While it is positive that more and more people are comparing Israel to South Africa, people like Mandela, Tutu. I wonder when Americans will start to do the same. Especially the media and the politicians.

[Mars Man]

Thanks for your responses, centrajapan san, Carlos Santana san. (and others)

Here is the matter:

First of all, take a good look at the title again-- Is There Middle Ground for the Middle East--what would make a compromise?

We will notice that there are two segements, two concerns which corelate. It would soon become clear enough that the second question would support the first--for by only firstly finding a compromise, could we assert that there would be middle ground.

My hopes for this thread, was to get people to think outside the box--humorously, the sand box...as it seemed to have become.


I wanted to spread an awareness about Israel´s daily crime and atrocities.

Yes, and that is what you had been doing from early on in a number of posts here and there, and that is what kept this thread and another from being able to more fully develope and bloom. Perhaps after you have added another 20 something years to your learning, observations, and experience, you may, possibly, be able to at least see the view point from which I am standing.


Mars Man-san. Accepting that there is no middle ground for peace would be to accept the status quo. I find that to be a very passive apathetic stance which I do not agree with.

Please do pay close attention. It was not I who accepted such, rather, it was I who came to the understanding that if those who are more closely involved wished not to make efforts to consider steps to reach beyond the status quo--the present state--then what degree of productivity would it be to continue offering? (and I don't mean steps directed at the present situation, because it will obviously not work...1948 was a long time ago!)

Since this will likely be my last post on this stranded-in-the-past-to-present-only thead, I will point out what seems most correct to me. No amount of finger pointing, discussing what the state is now, who the land belongs to, what had happened in that area since Homo Erectus, nor who has wronged who will add anything towards reaching any compromise in itself.

Simultaneous education has to be activated equally and freely among all the peoples of the area. ALL other things would have to be put on hold. It would not be overnight at all...in fact, it would probably take many years...but it would have to be the first step because understanding and seeing is a thing of the brain, and the maps of the brain can be fairly changed. That it would take time would be no problem because, all else held constant, we have some 5 billion years left here.

There would then be no nation-state Israel, nor any nation-state Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, and so on...up until the very last pre-paradigm shift nation-state on the planet. They would remain as regional overseers and social supervision centers, but have very little sovereign power or authority. There would be only jurisdiction borders as there are between states, prefectures, or districts in most present nation-states.

There would be complete separation of state and religious belief-system. All peoples would be socially free to practice and adhere to the belief of their choice free from malice and pressure to do otherwise. Religious belief-system laws would be downgraded to religio-cultural artifacts, thus non-binding to the fullest degree. There would be no religious belief-system law enforcement...no religious police. Women would have equal political, educational, legal, and social rights as men--thus they could drive, date, go out on their own, and dress as they so wished--mostly free from social stigma.

An education program could very possibly accomplish all these, among a number of other things. There would still be some turmoil, there would still be crime, there would still be those who would attempt, at varying degrees of success, to use the system to get ahead, accumulate power and wealth. There would still be those who could love, those who couldn't, and those could forgive, and those who couldn't. We would still be the animal that we are.

In short, the only compromise that will work, is the one wherein all that has been and is, is erased, and from a new slate, a new start is made...a clean cut, a totally new outlook and attitude.

[centrajapan]

As heated as this discussion is I do enjoy this pseudo intellectual exchange in opinions and do enjoy to read what you have to say. Now if we can carry on.

Perhaps after you have added another 20 something years to your learning, observations, and experience, you may, possibly, be able to at least see the view point from which I am standing.

Palestinians are not 100% innocent and have made mistakes in the past but if we are to deal with a conflict one must deal with the cause.

There would then be no nation-state Israel, nor any nation-state Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, and so on...up until the very last pre-paradigm shift nation-state on the planet. They would remain as regional overseers and social supervision centers, but have very little sovereign power or authority. There would be only jurisdiction borders as there are between states, prefectures, or districts in most present nation-states.

I am sorry I have a hard time following this. Are you saying that if there is going to be peace in the Middle East we need to get rid off nation states? I think it is perfectly possible to have peace in the Middle East without getting rid off nation states but perhaps get rid off Israel's regime. Jews can live there as much as they want and as long as they want as long as they live as civilians and not as ruthless oppressors who unleash mayhem.

There would be complete separation of state and religious belief-system. All peoples would be socially free to practice and adhere to the belief of their choice free from malice and pressure to do otherwise.

PLO was a secular movement which built their agenda on Arab nationalism and not Islam. Israel then supported Hamas to weaken PLO. Hamas is an Islamist movement.

This is not only about religion because before the creation of Israel there were Muslims, Christians and Jews living side by side. Rather this is about Zionism. Hamas does not say anything about Jews. Nor did Arafat but Zionism.

An education program could very possibly accomplish all these, among a number of other things. There would still be some turmoil, there would still be crime, there would still be those who would attempt, at varying degrees of success, t

Educating about what? That the land belongs to everyone? This is looking at it from a wrong angle. I am all in favour of education but perhaps an education to the reasons to why Palestine-Israel has been in conflict for 60+ years. Or come with terms that Israel and the Occupied Terriotires is one country and come to accept this fact therefore scrap Israel's racist Zionist laws.

[Void]

Simultaneous education has to be activated equally and freely among all the peoples of the area.

Sorry, Mars Man sama but it would be more correct to put it "among all the people of the world", and this thread (with some others here) just proves it.


There would be complete separation of state and religious belief-system.

i thought there won`t be any state :D


I think it is perfectly possible to have peace in the Middle East. Jews can live there as much as they want and as long as they want as long as they live as civilians and not as ruthless oppressors who unleash mayhem.

naivete

people, i appretiate your ramblings about Israel and Palestine, but Kurds anyone? This nation hasn`t been given any state at the times of cutting an Ottoman pie (though their number was very significant), and they are not going to throw their dream away and peacefully.
Kosovo anyone? and so on...

The borders are inside your minds, and i am afraid, Mars Man sama it might take over dozen of generation to come to a new way of thinking. On the other hand Toffler has a more optimistic way of thinking, and, maybe, he is right about the third wave. Here is a couple of stories for some contemplation (i don`t care if some consider bbc untrustworthy)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6405799.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6611667.stm

[scorpion da black]

very true void san.

things are hard to change in the middle east, as if this promised holy land is a cursed one

[Mars Man]

Sorry, Mars Man sama but it would be more correct to put it "among all the people of the world", and this thread (with some others here) just proves it. Ah ha !! Void san ! I could count on you to see to the heart of it, rather than just beynd the nose !! I appreciate your careful meditative analysis of it !! :cool:


i thought there won`t be any state :D (see above...as you would know, Void, there would be one world government, so...)

Nice job there Void san !!

[pugtm]

yeah great put more selfish people in the region and to top it all off make sure they have no stake in it and no connection to it. no understanding of the issues and no prior claim to the land. oh wait a second thats exactly what happened when europe grabbed all of israel and gave half of it away to jordan. never again.

[centrajapan]

naivete

people, i appretiate your ramblings about Israel and Palestine, but Kurds anyone? This nation hasn`t been given any state at the times of cutting an Ottoman pie (though their number was very significant), and they are not going to throw their dream away and peacefully.
Kosovo anyone? and so on...

Thank you for your feed back. But I am not quite sure what you mean by Kurds anyone? Kurdistan is a "nation" split into many countries. Kurds are a people. Kurds in Turkey have Turkish passports. Kurds in Iraq have Iraqu passports and so on. Palestinians in the Occupied Territories doe not have Israeli passports.
The reason why I mention the one state solution is because Israel turned down the agreement where Palestine would be able to make a state of 20% of the land. Now what will be more likely is that Israel at the most will only give Palestinians somewhere bwteen 10-15% of the land if even that. In other words a Bantustant.

Assuming that a Bantustant is not accepttable and the ongoing occupation isn't the other alternative would be to have a secular democracy where everyone has equal rights.

I still think a boycott of Israel is the best solution at this current stage. It is positive that there are many academic boycotts of Israel these days. For instanance Israel should not be allowed to play in UEFA matches or any cultural events until they oblige to the UN resolutions and international law.

[scorpion da black]

pugtum
it is funny how you blame the europians for giving you a part of palestine rather that all of it....if it wasnt for them you wouldnt have had any part of palestine at all.
we blame them for giving any part of palestine no matter how big or small to you.

israel never existed before 1948 on the corpses of palestinians.....and the europians helped you do that....
we blame them for helping you.....you blame them for not doing so enough...

mainly as mars man san said ....we dont want to argue about history any more...
because we will argue untill forever...

please argue about how we can make a compromise ....a sloution...
if you dont have any answer for that, then stop saying negative commenets....

you want israel a big nation with no arabs...
i want palestine, with no israel and no occupation...

it wont help if we flame each other....it wont solve the problem.
mars man has been trying hard to make a constructive conversation...so why dont you participate in it??

we are able to talk, as you can see in the chit chat forum....we get along well, and laugh about the same stuff...
if every arab and israeli thinks about that may be we can bridge our differences.

[centrajapan]

quote from here (http://http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9155.shtml)

The first Palestinian intifada (uprising or shaking off) erupted dramatically on 9 December 1987 after twenty long years of brutal Israeli military occupation. The Palestinians had had enough. Not only had they been dispossessed of their homeland and expelled from their homes in 1948 to make way for the boatloads of European Jewish immigrants flooding into Palestine on a promise of a Jewish state, they had been made to suffer the indignities of a people despised and rejected by the whole world. They were the victims of a colonialist project that denied their existence and their rights to self-determination in the land that they had continuously inhabited for millennia so that a state could be created in all of the land exclusively for Jews from anywhere in the world. To this day, the Zionist project has held powerful countries and august institutions hostage in its service, despite the indisputable rulings of international law and United Nations resolutions supporting the rights of the Palestinians. What Israel had not bargained for, though, was the steadfastness of a wronged people and their indomitable spirit that sent the first stones hurtling towards army tanks and bulldozers in their desperate bid to shake off Israel's crushing occupation. So began the "War of the Stones."

Intifada is an Arabic word for shaking off.

[Derfel]

pugtum
it is funny how you blame the europians for giving you a part of palestine rather that all of it....if it wasnt for them you wouldnt have had any part of palestine at all.


Agreed, and as it was stated many times, by many people, life is cruel, Israel was given the chance to come into existence by Lady Luck, but that doesn't mean that Israel is protected by divine powers, and should the tides change, it will be completely normal. It belongs to both nations, the one who can hold it, and the one who can gather more allies under his flag is the one who will control it, currently its the Jews, but Lady Luck is unpredictable, we'll see how the Wheel of Fortune decides.

[scorpion da black]

as centrajapan said bro derfel the tides are shaping against israel...
so either we start a solution that would spare life, or have a biblical third world war.

[Void]

well, Mars Man sama, i think there exist one more solution... lobotomy... global :p

[Void]

Thank you for your feed back. But I am not quite sure what you mean by Kurds anyone? Kurdistan is a "nation" split into many countries. Kurds are a people. Kurds in Turkey have Turkish passports. Kurds in Iraq have Iraqu passports and so on. Palestinians in the Occupied Territories doe not have Israeli passports.


minimum for 2 reasons
1st - conflicts in ME are not only located in the Palestine-Israel area (Lebanon, Iran, Syria, now Kurds-Turks confrontation...)
2nd - is it surprise for you that Kurds wouldn`t mind to have a country of their own?

... and 3rd - to have passport doesn`t necessarily means to be happy (or at least satisfied) with ongoing situation, or to have a chance to change it for own good

[Doc]

From the Mediterrenian sea to the Tigris River, Mt. Hermon to the tip of the Sinai peninsula--a land of many struggles over the course of thousands of years--lies a thorn of an issue even in our time. Can a compromise be made? What might it take?
This thread is for a discussion of what a person might make of the turmoil in that region, and what might be done to reconcile, to compromise, to put an end to the fighting and build trust and friendship.
The theme of this thread will have little to do with religious belief-systems, though points from tenets of such may have bearing from time to time. This thread is not to belittle nor speak ill of other members, but to debate and discuss the problems, possible causes that had given rise to the problems, and how the conflict might be resolved. Let's be fair, as open-minded as possible, and polite.
I would think that less concern about national or national groups interests and more concern about human interests, would be a good starting attitude. At the same time, this would probably have to mean lessening of religious exclusiveness.

One simple answer to your question: No.

[Void]

centrajapan, although you edited your post, i reply to it.

first of all, i do not tend to look at ME conflicts separately. And even more
i consider it as an insufficient approach. As well as you cannot review it without taking into account connection with outer world (and zionism is just a part of these connections). I am not going to discuss the origins of Zionism and degree of its extremes, it is far beyond the topic and even forum (there
numerous sources on the web and one can stuck with most comfortable for one`s mind).

I`ll try not to jump deep into history, though i cling to a different from Mars
Man`s position on that subject. Let`s start not so far: the fall of Ottoman
empire gave birth to several countries. Just one simple "but" which turns into
"butt" when you examine it carefully. The nations what inhabited the area weren`t left alone, the borders were drawn for them by "big brothers" who stuck their thingers in every pie and are not intended to leave even now. And it wasn`t much for sake and prosperity of arabian nations. Certainly, there were some good sides in that, but number of ugly ones is also significant.

the rest of the picture you can paint yourself with any colours. I`ll just ask
few questions which will make you dive into some historical events and, perhaps, psychology.
1) what is the core cry of palestinians? how different it from israeli`s or
kurds`?
2) what zionism had to do with confliccts between Iran and Iraq or Iraq and
Kuwait ?
3) what brought Afgans against each other (disregard the supporting sides of US and USSR) ?
4) what keeps Lebanon so unstable (apart from Iran-Syria-Israel trio) ?
5) if you read some palestinians bloggers you`ll find out that besides US and
Israel they point out to another cause of their problems. Who or what that
may be ?


I am all for self determination by a group of people if that is majority will.

so, what is your position on Kosovo, which is closer to you than ME ?

... just for a starter

Mars Man sama, i am sorry for drivig away from the topic, but my word -
i`ll get back to it in awhile :p

[centrajapan]

1.) Palestine, Kurdistan is different. What they have in common is that they don't have their country.

2) what zionism had to do with confliccts between Iran and Iraq or Iraq and
Kuwait ? It didn't. Not Israel.

In the 1953 Iranian coup d'état, the United Kingdom and the United States orchestrated the overthrow of the democratically-elected administration of Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq and his cabinet from power

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq wanted to nationalise Iranian oil and US, UK branded him a communist because US, UK had coorporate interests such as BP in Iran so they overthrew Mosaddeq and installed the Shah so that he could make business easier for the multi national companies. Shah was a dictator who sold out on a nation. Iran had both police and secret police. In the end it got so bad that Iranians decided to storm the US Embassy in the revolution. Because of it US supported Saddam against Iraq.

3 Lebanon has had wars due to external problems which then moved on to Lebanon.

[centrajapan]

A Muslim man jumped to the aid of three Jewish subway riders after they were attacked by a group of young people who objected to one of the Jews saying "Happy Hanukkah," a spokeswoman for the three said Wednesday.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/12/subway.attack/index.html

In the days where anti Muslim feelings are running high I suppose this is good news but had not anti Muslims feeling been running high in places like US this would probably not been news in the first place.

[Mars Man]

So, there could be some hope sometime far down the road after all; maybe.

[Sukotto]

sumimasen kedo,

did i post on this thread?
i do not remember.
i cannot find a post anywhere.
but it is showing up under my subscribed threads somehow.

[centrajapan]

So, there could be some hope sometime far down the road after all; maybe.

It is not about religon but religion used as a pretext to carry out a rape of a people and nation. There is a difference. There will never be peace until people wake up and call a spade a spade.

US is still mixing apples and oranges.