Sexuality

[Skullcrushergurl]

What is your sexuality and what are your views on gay/bi relationships?
There is starting to be a sort of tolerance in America but other countries like Japan and Europe it isn't so common....is it?
My best friend is gay and I have no real problem with it but I worry about him sometimes.

[Tsuyoiko]

There is starting to be a sort of tolerance in America but other countries like Japan and Europe it isn't so common....is it?
[/CENTER]
Interesting you should say that. My perception is the opposite. Gay marriage is legal here in the UK now. Not so in the US right?

[Skullcrushergurl]

No..I don't think so but people are more accepting. It just isn't legal yet.

[made of stone]

Not having been to the States, but having a very many good friends from those parts, and a long-held interest in American sociology, I feel able to offer my opinion that our tiny British Isles are far more tolerant of alternative sexual choices across the whole land mass than the USA is...

I'm straight by the way (and still single!! Hello to all the likewise-single gals of Jref, heehee :blush:), but have always had some good friends who aren't. I care more about spirit and values than sexuality.

[Goldiegirl]

I can't agree MOS, sorry, but the USA is much larger country so it really depends on where you live. San Francisco, New York, Chicago, Seattle, basically the bigger more metropolitan areas are tolerant of homosexual people and really anybody. I lived in Milwaukee and we have a yearly "Gay Pride" parade. It was and is a big success. The East Side where I lived was a very diverse community. Some of favorite TV shows have been with homosexual people, for instance "Will & Grace". I know that certain shows in the UK are the same too...

[made of stone]

I can't agree MOS, sorry, but the USA is much larger country so it really depends on where you live. San Francisco, New York, Chicago, Seattle, basically the bigger more metropolitan areas are tolerant of homosexual people and really anybody. I lived in Milwaukee and we have a yearly "Gay Pride" parade. It was and is a big success. The East Side where I lived was a very diverse community. Some of favorite TV shows have been with homosexual people, for instance "Will & Grace". I know that certain shows in the UK are the same too...

Sorry I didn't express myself clearly - that was actually exactly what I meant!!

Of course, the US has some very understanding cities across its great landmass, but it also has very (and in some cases extremely!!) intolerant areas. The UK is a minuscule place in comparison, and has its own 'pockets' of discrimination, but by and large that small land mass makes for less dramatic variations from region to region, and across the country as a whole.

mos :)

[Sarapva]

I think there's only one state (Massachusetts?) in the U.S. so far that has legalized gay marriage. It's hard to say, but I can understand both Goldiegirl's and made of stone's arguments. The British do seem to be more liberal, on the whole, than Americans, but then there are places like San Francisco and Milwaukee where differences are accepted. I think there is still a strictness in religion that permeates a lot of the U.S., and this is probably where the intolerance of gays comes from.

[Mars Man]

I think there is still a strictness in religion that permeates a lot of the U.S., and this is probably where the intolerance of gays comes from.

That, Sarapva san, is THE key point. Within a social group, the elements of culture and religious belief-system that have entangled together to make the fabric of that same social group, will extend to what are called moral attitudes.

The USofA moral compass, among other attitudes as well, has played a heavy hand in not accepting homosexuality. I mean in wasn't until around 1975 that it was changed from being classed as 'mental health' problem, rather than a state of biological sexual disposition, in the US psychiatric handbook.

There is no more 'wrong' in homosexuality than there is 'wrong' in hetrosexuality, bi-sexuality, or asexuality. The belief that sexual orientations other than hetrosexuality are wrong, is a dinosaur from ages of ignorance.

[MadamePapillon]

What is your sexuality and what are your views on gay/bi relationships?
There is starting to be a sort of tolerance in America but other countries like Japan and Europe it isn't so common....is it?
My best friend is gay and I have no real problem with it but I worry about him sometimes.

America has always been slow on the uptake when it comes to lifestyles and people that differ from the norm (the christian norm), but I'm confident they will come around. They always do. They give in ever so grudgingly and often with a big ugly battle but once the dust settles they look back and realize how stupid it all was and start going on about tolerance and acceptance.

Read American history, the rules for this kind of thing are practically written in stone :blush:

As for sexuality...I'll just say this. If Angelina Jolie came up to me right now and asked me to have sex with her...I totally would. :cool:

[Mars Man]

Which reminds me...I forgot to answer the question...although I think my bald head fairly easily gives it away. Yes, I have a storehouse of testosterone, and it has burdened me a rather strong hetrosexual drive.

Now in my youth (last of highschool, and early college) my hereditary being and looks--along with my slightly long, curly red hair--brought on a number of advances from those who I didn't and still don't mind being around (and of course hold nothing against), but who I just could not imagine myself taking part in any even sensual touching with.

And, I have once been turned down by a rather nice female who was more into relationhips of that kind with other girls--but we had some good times together beyond that, I will admit...really a good friendship like thing (but she was attractive) So...that's where I am now....

[Dutch Baka]

Interesting thread. Let me come up with my story... when I have some more time!

I'm looking forward reading some posts on this thread! Thanks OP.

[Revenant]

There is no more 'wrong' in homosexuality than there is 'wrong' in hetrosexuality, bi-sexuality, or asexuality. The belief that sexual orientations other than hetrosexuality are wrong, is a dinosaur from ages of ignorance.hahaha... quite agree.

[Kinsao]

I think that England seems pretty tolerant in general of non-heterosexuality, although of course not entirely 'perfect' in this respect. :p I would say that the impression I get is that Europe (again while not being 'perfect') is fairly accepting and becoming more so... with some cultural exceptions that I don't know of (since I haven't visited all countries in Europe, even less to enough depth to get an accurate impression of people's attitudes in the main!).

I did have the impression there are more 'pockets of fanatical Christians' in America (no offense meant by the expression!) than are found in Europe... although there are strong Christian backgrounds to a lot of 'religion' in Europe, I have found it to be (with exceptions) more easy-going and less 'militant' than the American variety - although not sure if this is more representative of Latin/Southern European countries than the more 'hardline' northern/eastern countries (such as Poland). :?

Also, thinking that something is 'wrong' is slightly different from failing to practice tolerance towards those that practice it (the old 'hate the sin not the sinner' argument).

Personally I know quite a number of gay people (perhaps more than average since my interests include theatre and fetish events), some of whom are 'out' and some are not.

[bakaKanadajin]

I think there are two kinds of gay people, those by birth and those by choice. Whatever you're into, as long as you don't try to push it on me, I'm fine with it. Toronto has a large gay population, nearly as large as San Francisco's, definitely top 3 in North America. Most gays are cool, but there are a few who don't know how to keep their words and actions in check and if I did the same things to a woman I'd be charged with sexual assault and harrassment, so the equality thing is in some cases warranted, no one should be discriminated against, but in some cases I think they get away with too much.

Overall I don't really care what people do in their bedrooms.

I think the whole gay marriage thing is a small time crisis compared to some of the more global and survival-related issues we should be dealing with. I was angered to see it garner so much media attention when more important things are occurring world wide. Do we really care at the moment if gays marry? How about making sure we don't nuke each other or decimate or natural resources first.

[Clawn]

For the longest time I was anti-gay/lesbian/bi/transexual, because I was sticking to what certain elders had told me. However, in one year (I believe it was 2004) two of my close friends "came out" and my perception of homosexuality was turned on its head. You see, I live in a typical southern, rural, country town; very conservative. Until that point, I had never met or talked with someone who was homosexual. Well, not knowingly, anyway. I had been blinded by some of my town's homophobia and a completely ridiculous belief that homosexuality was linked to sexual perversion.

However, after a few long chats with some very good friends, I came to the view that I have now: We should not judge someone by anything other than the content of their character. (thanks Mr. King Jr.)

So, I believe that even though parts of my country and the world are still intolerant or homosexuals, that old belief is slowly eroding away. I hope that one day the hate crimes and discrimination associated with this matter will all be an unpleasant memory.

[RegDunlap]

Whatever people do in the privacy of their own homes is no concern of mine. Straight, bisexual, trisexual, homosexual, it isn't my business.

I'm from Toronto too, and I used to work in a big hotel downtown. A goodly portion of my coworkers were homosexual, and it didnt really matter. We probably joked around about it more than we should have, but that was no big deal.

In dealing with issues like marriage, I am a little more conservative. I have yet to see a compelling argument as to why the privilege of marriage needs to be extended to include same sex couples. Issues of property and the like can be dealt with through civil unions and private contracts between the concerned parties.

[Derfel]

My opinion is a little more conservative, generally I don't care about homosexual people doing whatever they wish, behind curtains like everyone else, but I find parades and such very, very disgusting, be they gay, bi or simply hetero parades to promote sexuality. Gay pride? Why the hell? If someone is homosexual he is homosexual, its not something good or bad, its a mere fact. Why would you be proud about it? Why would people be pride about being heterosexual? Someone who beats his/her chest and keeps saying "im proud about being bi/gay!" is quite ashamed about it deep inside. I don't care if they marry, let them, if they wish to marry its their decision, I won't raise my fist or voice against it, but I still find it a bit twisted. On the other hand, I would certainly deny them religious marriages, as even though gay people are people just like, but still, gay people aren't the ones to write religion, and just for their comfort it would be a dumb idea to profanate a religion. But of course, religions not against gay relationships are okay, they should let them marry under their sign.

[Revenant]

Could gay pride be similar to something like black pride? Might it be a minority group not quite accepted by everyone saying 'We're here, and we're not going away! Accept us!?'

[MadamePapillon]

In dealing with issues like marriage, I am a little more conservative. I have yet to see a compelling argument as to why the privilege of marriage needs to be extended to include same sex couples. Issues of property and the like can be dealt with through civil unions and private contracts between the concerned parties.

Funny you should say that, as I have yet to hear a compelling argument as to why the 'privilege' of marriage shouldn't extend to same sex couples.

The whole argument, in my opinion, is just a not-so-subtle way of saying 'you are second class citizens and don't deserve the same rights as straight couples'

[Derfel]

Well I kinda see Reg's point. Its not that they're second class citizens, the same rules apply to them as well, after all heterosexual people can't marry their sex either.

[RegDunlap]

Funny you should say that, as I have yet to hear a compelling argument as to why the 'privilege' of marriage shouldn't extend to same sex couples.
The whole argument, in my opinion, is just a not-so-subtle way of saying 'you are second class citizens and don't deserve the same rights as straight couples'

The deserve the same rights as straight couples, just not married couples. See the difference?

Marriage is not an absolute right. It is restricted in a way that it will best benefit society. It is not such a simple thing as two people loving each other.

Currently, marriage is restricted by;

a/ number of participants (currently 2)
b/ age of participants (varies but generally 16 years and up)
c/ relationship of participants (no family member marriages)
d/ gender of participants (one each of male and female)

By changing one of the restrictions, the institution is changed. What then is to stop people from changing OTHER restrictions as well? The Canadian government commissioned a study that came to the same conclusion. There is no logical way to continue to criminalize polygamy or polyamory, when same sex marriage is given approval.

[MadamePapillon]

The deserve the same rights as straight couples, just not married couples. See the difference?
Marriage is not an absolute right. It is restricted in a way that it will best benefit society. It is not such a simple thing as two people loving each other.
Currently, marriage is restricted by;
a/ number of participants (currently 2)
b/ age of participants (varies but generally 16 years and up)
c/ relationship of participants (no family member marriages)
d/ gender of participants (one each of male and female)
By changing one of the restrictions, the institution is changed. What then is to stop people from changing OTHER restrictions as well? The Canadian government commissioned a study that came to the same conclusion. There is no logical way to continue to criminalize polygamy or polyamory, when same sex marriage is given approval.

And yet we've had gay marriage for going on two years, five in some provinces, and we have yet to have experienced any true problems because of this. If anything it's been positive as Canada has been attracting gay/lesbian tourists which in turn helps the economy.

Life goes on as it always has and everybody is more or less happy, even those who were opposed don't seem inclined to bring it up again now that it's been legalized and hasn't brought forth the apocalypse or anything.

To give reason why or why not same sex marriage should be legalized is basically a non issue, it's already happened in numerous countries and I have yet to see any true downside to it, besides of course the intolerance of some people.

[Mars Man]

Regarding the public exposure by those of the homosexual orientation, I reason that Revenant is most correct in his observation.

Regarding the concept 'marriage,' I have very much come to a rather fixed understanding. Since that would not so relate to the theme of 'sexuality,' I will save that for the other thread which is still on-going, but has been resting a little recently.

In dealing with issues like marriage, I am a little more conservative. I have yet to see a compelling argument as to why the privilege of marriage needs to be extended to include same sex couples. Issues of property and the like can be dealt with through civil unions and private contracts between the concerned parties.(bold and underline mine)

I would hope the stressed points, would make the point, on their own.

There is no logical way to continue to criminalize polygamy or polyamory, when same sex marriage is given approval.


This is something to look into. I would love to get my hands on a copy of the conclusion of that study.


To give reason why or why not same sex marriage should be legalized is basically a non issue,...

Thus this does, after all's been said and done, reason out to be most correct. The two truly appear to neutralize the other--cross each other out, so to speak--leaving a result of 'non-issue.' (other than that of belief-system validation/verification)


(And I will apologize for not forwarding any other argumemts on that at the moment, I am certain they will come up and be expounding on in so many threads over so many posts, among some already existing theads, and some yet to started. Please bear with me...I just wanted to keep this thread more so on topic, so have declined herein.)

[Annubis]

I've always thought of myself as a gay man in a girl's body.

Maybe it's because I never felt comfortable with girls... I don't know.

But all I know is that I like men and I feel like a man sometimes... hehe... I'm just lucky I'm a girl... cus it's easier in this day and age to find a mate of the opposite sex.

Well... HAHAHA... maybe not, I'm still single even though I'm awesome in bed.

So sex... gender and sexuality are quite contovercial topics and very personal. Throughout my life I've been friends with many homosexual people. I know one that is married. I've worked with them and well... they are the sweetest, most open minded and most fun people I can think of. I am from Montreal, Canada and it is a hub of sexuality. Perhaps that is why everyone is single. Marriage is becoming more and more rare because sex and friendship is all one wants today. Who wants the burden of raising children when you can spend your life having fun?

[Dutch Baka]

Annubis[/LEFT];536166]I'm still single even though I'm awesome in bed.


You made me laugh (in a positive way).

[Sarapva]

To give reason why or why not same sex marriage should be legalized is basically a non issue, it's already happened in numerous countries and I have yet to see any true downside to it, besides of course the intolerance of some people.

Yes, I think that after it's legalized in more countries same-sex marriage will be just another of these things that people will wonder what all the opposition was about to begin with. I see no reason not to legalize a union of two people of the same sex. If our population was dwindling and we were in danger of becoming extinct, I can see how maybe opposite-sex marriages would be encouraged more, but in our over-populated world we don't need to worry about propagating the species.

[maushan3]

I am not very accepting of the idea of gay people. I might be (sadly) a little discriminant to homosexual people, but it is because I just can't accept it, don't blame me. To each his/her own. I have nothing against them, just not my idea.

They do have an awesome fashion style in the West. In Japan, though, the heterosexuals are the ones with the fashion style.

Mauricio

[Kinsao]

I see no reason why homosexual couples shouldn't be permitted a legal union that gives them the same rights as a heterosexual couple who married in the registry office. As for religions, if they have precepts that say homosexual activity is wrong, there is no reason why they should have to perform/endorse same-sex marriages - it is a legal question, not a spiritual one, so each religion keeps its 'rules', and if you disagree with a religion, well then, tough, you shouldn't be wishing to marry within that religion (and why would you, in that case?!). I think legal rights should be able to be the same as in civil heterosexual partnership - although the question of children is more complicated.

[Ma Cherie]

I would have to say that the US is kind of slow as far as legalizing gay marriage. People are in favor of civil unions but not full blown marriage. I attend a very liberal college, we were named as one of the most LGBT friendly campuses in the country in the Advocate. Yaaaaay! Okay enough about that. :relief:

The strange thing about US culture is that we seemed to be a sex saturated society, but at the same time we get upset just because someone accidently exposed their nipple. :clueless::o Doesn't make much sense, and Americans are still debating about sex education. For those of you who don't know, the current state of sex education in the US is Abstinence-Only. Which has proven to be ineffective and hasn't done much to decrease the rates of STD's and pregnancy. I'm an advocate for comprehenisve sex education. Part of the reason why many Americans are uptight when it comes to issues of sex, may have something to do with us being more religious than Europeans. So that's another factor. The issue of sexual activity among teens is treated like a moral issue and not a public health issue. There's no discussion of contraceptives, if there is it is only in terms of failure rates.

Well enough about that as well, I think we should be a bit more open minded about sexuality. :p

[Sarapva]

(I'd like to add an off-topic note here and apologize for getting irritable in the deleted posts. Thanks for the PM, Doc - I hope everyone will still keep posting on this thread.)

Yes, the U.S. seems to be slower than other western nations in changing things like legalizing gay marriage. But I think it's happening state by state.

[Derfel]

If all homosexual people were like Rob Halford, the musical "scene" today would be a great deal better. :D
I can digest that kind of style without a problem, but I so hate it when they dress all fluffy and feminine, well they more like half naked on the streets. They just make themselves a bad reputation and thats why some people look at them as a "bad influence" or a potential source of "bad influence".

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Hm, i would say that i am bisexual although i would say that i am more straight than gay/lesbian etc.

One of my best friends is bi and the other is gay, their sexuality is no concern of mine and it does not effect our friendship in anyway. My fiance is 100% straight although i think he thinks it is quite cool that i am bisexual (one of his biggest fantasies is to have a threesome with me and another girl).


I would say i am very accepting of other people's sexual preferances and stuff, i have nothing whatsoever against those who are gay (although that doesn't mean that the thought of a man having sex with another man doesn't gross me out). What goes on between consenting adults behind closed doors is none of my buisness/concern.

I think people are generally quite accepting of gay and bisexual people in my country and area where i live, but think there are still a lot of gender and sex related taboo's in our society- for example, i think a lot of people have a hard time accepting transvestites and cross-dressers.
I think as more and more people come out about these things and they are more openly and honestly discussed, i hope that we will discriminate less and less about people's sexuality and/or gender etc.

[Derfel]

Well I don't know, although im aware that transvestites can't do much about the situation they're in, I still can't accept what they're doing, perhaps the next generation will?
Example, you're just going somewhere and you see some crowd in weird dresses, you say to yourself: "Wha'? Twisted Sister concert? What the hell?"
But when you go closer you don't find Dee Schneider anywhere, you find hairy grown males prancing and rubbing each other where they shouldn't in public.

[scorpion da black]

so mars man san that makes me a dinousor old ignorant...since...
i dont like the idea of homosexuality, i dont except it....i will be against ever making it legal in my part of the world ....i dont even except ever having a gay freind...

and i hate when people call that homophobia...what is there to fear in a gay person??
will he drown me using his perfume??

i would better call it anti-homosexuality...or fascism against homos...
i can live with these names.

being gay is against nature, religion, and the original way life is made...

[Tokis-Phoenix]

being gay is against nature, religion, and the original way life is made...



Actually being gay isn't against nature, yes its aganst our rules of reproduction, but when it comes to nature, gayness is everywhere- i have seen so many gay animals, i kid you not, when i was a kid i had loads of pet chickens and we even had a pair of gay roosters amoungst the hens.

I don't blame you if you find the thought of a man having sex with another man gross, but other than that, why should gay guys concern you? If they keep to their buisness and you keep to your buisness, who's to say you can't co-exist and accept each other?


Even from an evolution point of view, gay guys have a purpose in society- they can be very good, honest, hardworking people that can be a real asset to society and its economies.

Lets make an imaginary scenario- say you live in a run down town in the middle of nowhere, your town has no economy and its community is suffering a great deal from the lack of money going into the town- buisness and life is very hard.
Say a guy comes to town though, and he comes into it with this great idea for buisness, he sets up his company in the town and his buisness does exceptionally well and he employs anyone in the community who wants to work hard and honest- all of a sudden you find yourself working under him, and all of a sudden you have money to put in to your bank account, you can put food on the table for your family, send your kids off to a good school and afford the dream wedding you and your partner has always wanted etc.
What if then, it becomes known around the town that your employer is gay?
Do you put your anti-gay beliefs behind you and accept that this guy is a good man and has done a lot for you and your community, or do you let your beliefs blind you and all of a sudden you change your opinions towards him for the worse because you simply cannot agree with or accept his sexuality and so you look down upon him, believing yourself to be morally better than him because of your sexuality etc?

[scorpion da black]

well tokis chan...i cant imagine your scenario, neither would i want to...

i know homosexuality is common in the wild, i have seen that many time on national geographic...
but as you said it is against rules of reproduction...and as everyone knows...
the scientific reason for sex is to make sure the race continues ...humanity in our case cant continue if homosexuality was accpeted...it is not like i am saying that it is a threat to mankind...it is just that nature made two sexes...and that was for a reason...
hermophrodites are not humans.

[Derfel]

so mars man san that makes me a dinousor old ignorant...since...
i dont like the idea of homosexuality, i dont except it....i will be against ever making it legal in my part of the world ....i dont even except ever having a gay freind...
and i hate when people call that homophobia...what is there to fear in a gay person??
will he drown me using his perfume??
i would better call it anti-homosexuality...or fascism against homos...
i can live with these names.
being gay is against nature, religion, and the original way life is made...

What reason do you have to hate them? I don't know of a single gay person who chose to be gay, well except for Jacko... but he's a different case lol.
You say the original way of life and religion. Did you know that certain cultures and religions are quite tolerant with gay people? Can you declare that yes, you and your religion are right, and they are wrong, its absolute, black and white, carved in stone once and for all? Of course you can, but you would be wrong.
If you look down upon gay people because of their sexual orientation and no other, no strong reason, why not look down upon sex as whole? Isn't it an instinct? Sure, I find men having sex disgusting, but when you think about it men and women having sex isn't any less disgusting. Isn't it a simple urge? It is, undoubtedly, now gay people have an urge similar to ours. If ours is natural, theirs isn't less natural either, if theirs is filthy, ours is filthy as well.
Please choose an option.

[scorpion da black]

well derfel if i was to have a bad trait in the eyes of the world then i would choose that it be " anti homosexuality "...
i can live with all the names i will be called for hating them....

you are right i can live and not mind them......

but again i choose my believes...and i choose to not accept them!

[Derfel]

well tokis chan...i cant imagine your scenario, neither would i want to...
i know homosexuality is common in the wild, i have seen that many time on national geographic...
but as you said it is against rules of reproduction...and as everyone knows...
the scientific reason for sex is to make sure the race continues ...humanity in our case cant continue if homosexuality was accpeted...it is not like i am saying that it is a threat to mankind...it is just that nature made two sexes...and that was for a reason...
hermophrodites are not humans.

Let me state one thing, Im not here on earth for the sake of reproducing, and being here solely for reproducing must be a rough "mission", Im here to "sightsee" but Im on the other side of the cage too, im being watched and observed as well. I look at gay people and think about them, observe them, I try to follow their way of thinking. Regardless of whether I agree with them or not, they make life a bit more interesting. If everything went according to the rules of reproduction we'd probably be ants or bees because their "method" is the one that is the most effective, but we're not are we?
Homosexuality is not a disease that spreads with sex, so its not a threat to humanity.
You can't imagine the scenario? But you already did, you stated that you wouldn't want to, so that means you imagined it, and you found it humiliating and probably felt a little guilt too for hating your good doer for no reason.
And may I ask why aren't hermaphrodites humans? Well sure if you view them as the offspring of Hermes and Aphrodite they're gods yeah, but in truth, they're humans just like us, its probably a mutation, and to tell you the truth, evolution is nothing different, do you know how many mutations occurred already? Or do we look like mere monkeys? How can you be so sure that the future human won't be hermaphrodite?

Religion might save your soul, a homosexual person can save you from your soul being saved too early, if you treat him normally that is. Judging potential friends so easily is a grave sin, whatever religion might say.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

well tokis chan...i cant imagine your scenario, neither would i want to...
i know homosexuality is common in the wild, i have seen that many time on national geographic...
but as you said it is against rules of reproduction...and as everyone knows...
the scientific reason for sex is to make sure the race continues ...humanity in our case cant continue if homosexuality was accpeted...it is not like i am saying that it is a threat to mankind...it is just that nature made two sexes...and that was for a reason...
hermophrodites are not humans.



The fact that you say you don't want to imagine my scenario means that you are in denial, if your beliefs are based on logical thinking and reason then you should be able to answer to the scenario. I feel sorry for you that you base your opinions in such a narrow-minded and arrogant way (no offence intended, but thats the way anyone who wasn't acting in a narrow-minded way would view what you just said).


So then...Do you believe that the only purpose of our existance as a species is to reproduce? You say hermophrodites are not human beings...Apart from the fact that i find what you just said so wrong in so many ways, are you also saying that gay people are not human beings because they do not want to reproduce with women? Define to me in your opinion/understanding, what makes us human then?



Also i strongly disagree with what you said i.e. "humanity in our case cant continue if homosexuality was accpeted". Gay guys were (and still generally are) completely accepted in japanese society for hundreds upon hundreds of years- famous male samurai and religious monks were not unknown to have sex with each other. Ironically, before japan opened up its doors to the west in 1886, japan had had the longest period of peace ever known to any nation/country in history, a period of peace of a whopping 200years+. During this time homosexuality was completely accepted in japan, does that mean they had no humanity just because they accepted it?

What is this concept of "humanity" you are trying to save from homosexuals?

IMHO, if more people accepted homosexuals i actually think this world would become a lot more civilised and better place to live in.

And to say homesexuality is against religion..Well maybe your take on your religion, whatever that may be. But if you look at the bigger picture and take a step outdoors into the big wide world beyond your fear based beliefs, you would soon release that there are many civilised religions that are accepting of homosexuality- for example buddhism and shintoism to name a few.
Whatever religion you follow, it will never be the ultimate face and leading example of religion, you cannot say that homosexuality is against religion, since there are many religions which are completely accepting of it and do not fear nor hate it.


If you had a brother who one day came out and told you he was gay, would you forsake him because of his homosexuality? Did you learn nothing from the story of "the good samaritan"? Did the storys of Jesus showing care and love to some of the most hated people in his society, like tax payers and prostitutes, mean nothing to you?

[MadamePapillon]

well tokis chan...i cant imagine your scenario, neither would i want to...
i know homosexuality is common in the wild, i have seen that many time on national geographic...
but as you said it is against rules of reproduction...and as everyone knows...
the scientific reason for sex is to make sure the race continues ...humanity in our case cant continue if homosexuality was accpeted...it is not like i am saying that it is a threat to mankind...it is just that nature made two sexes...and that was for a reason...
hermophrodites are not humans.

Well, for the sake of not going into another off topic argument I'll just say that in no way are gays threatening the survival of mankind.

I'm of the opinion that, though humans are more advanced, animals are the truest form of nature and we should follow their example in many cases.
There are gay animals yet you don't see them being attacked or killed by members of their own species. Why? Simply because they aren't a threat to the continued survival of the species.

Reproduction is in no danger, I can't understand why people keep using that as an argument when it is so clearly not true.
When was the last time you saw any species dying off because there were to many gays? Never.
Has reproduction ceased in countrys that accept gays? No.
It's just not a valid argument and I wish people would stop using it.

Instead of just brushing it off so quickly as a disease, or a brain malfunction, or trying to find and destroy the 'gay gene' I think we should realize that it has it's place. We not be able to see why this occurs or for what purpose but homosexuality does have it's place in the natural order.

I think we should try more to understand why rather than being so quick to condemn it in the name of fear, misunderstanding and religion.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I totally agree with you MadamePapillon, i agree with Derfel a lot too :cool:

[ghost writer]

hahaha...funny read. I've never heard anyone describe themselves in that way before. haha love the sense of humor...

[mgs4]

My sister is gay, so perhaps I am biased, but I have no problem with someone being gay. Now, do I want to see two guys kissing each other, no. But, two girls, of course I would, but I think that is different all together.
If someone doesn't like gays, or doesn't think it's right, that is their opinion, and obviously they are entitled to it.
BUT, I never will understand gay-bashing. I mean, actually beating up someone who is gay.
That is terrible. Like I said, I wouldn't want to see two guys kiss, but I wouldn't shout slurs against them, and I certainly wouldn't want to beat them up.
Life is complex. As long as someone isn't being hurt in any way, just let people be.

Just my two cents.

[scorpion da black]

derfel tokis
i never said hermophrodites like those who have a mutation..i was speaking hypothetically about humans not able to reproduce by being male and female at the same time ...so mating all ways isnt going to work..
and i didnt say it was "my opinion" that our reason to live is to reproduce and insure the continuity of the species...it science's opinion when ever they refer to a specie and its mating habit.

as for my opinion about not accpeting gays, well it is my opinion and you have to respect it as i respect yours....
you cant stereotype me as ignorant or arrogant...
this a point of view....whether i am pro-homosexuality, or not it is my view..
and tokis i told you i hate the word homophobia...fear has nothing to do with shaping my believe.
my believe isnt even based on religion alone...it is instinctal feeling that is explained as rejection to the idea of homosexuality..
it is that feeling every human has of right and wrong...instinctal conciense...same feeling any human will feel against steeling or killing.

i have no problem in being called a bad person about this particular matter for not accpeting homos....
because my view will not change.

plus guys stop refering to me as a fascist ...
i have travelled many times...and i have met a lot of gay guys...and it is not like i carried a crusade against them and killed them or any thing...i minded my own bussines and they minded theirs. at one occasion a gay man tried to ask me out and he said he finds me attractive...i didnt lash out at him, but very politely said " i am sorry, i dont mean to insult you, but i am not that kind of person"

having met gays doesnt mean accepting them........i will always be against the idea...
but it is not like i would be an uncivil person because of it

[Sarapva]

....having met gays doesnt mean accepting them........i will always be against the idea...
but it is not like i would be an uncivil person because of it

I think there could be some cultural differences here between the eastern and western parts of the world. I would think that eastern cultures would have a harder time accepting homosexuality than the west because of cultural beliefs about men and women, etc.

posted by Scorpion da black:

and i hate when people call that homophobia...what is there to fear in a gay person??
will he drown me using his perfume??

:giggle: This proves you're not afraid of gays!

[Mars Man]

Well, a lot of responses have been made to your post, scorpion da black san, that had been referring to an earlier post of mine. I'd like to take a look at the line that you referred to:

The belief that sexual orientations other than hetrosexuality are wrong, is a dinosaur from ages of ignorance.


So, as you will notice, it is the 'belief' that is the dinosaur. So, that doesn't mean you, yourself, just that belief. That belief is set in the religious belief-system to which you adhere, and I would make an educated guess and suggest that it is due to that up-bringing which has so hardened you against accepting the reality.

I would like to encourage you, since you have shown willingness to pursure things in the way of tested knowledge, to do further research on the matter of sex. There is one thread which I am still working on (Love, Marriage, and Sex) which gives some bit and pieces of the knowledge that is verified, that might help some. I have found that one cannot get all the right stuff on the internet, and so journals and books seem best--or membership in medical and scientific circles.

Now some loose wording, as is often happening, can be found. After careful thought, I would bet that we would find that by 'rules of reproduction' a person would be talking of 'a specific social group's rules of acceptable sexual orientation and marriage.' Nature, it has very well been shown to be true, has a variety of ways of dealing with the reproductive act. There are plants and animals that reproduce solely by themselves--asexual.

Homosexuality is a matter of nature itself, and this (in that this is a well documented fact) I would urge to you to look into it more, and learn the wide variety that nature is. This doesn't mean that you would have agree to approve of homosexuality, but it would mean that you could not deny that it is as much a part of nature as having sexual state in the first place!

hermophrodites are not humans.

There are more hermaphrodites in the plant kingdom, but there are some in the non-plant kingdom as well--homo sapiens being one of them. The idea you seem to be presenting is very dangerous, and is very mistaken. Every homo sapien is a human, by English definition. And it is is a fact that nature will give us, on those very rare occasions (yes, rare, but nevertheless there) the double sex build--see that thread I mentioned above.

Again, in the final anaysis of all the knowledge which is secure about the make-up of life forms on the earth, to assert that homosexuality is 'wrong' against nature itself, is an old idea which has very solidly been proven incorrect.

[scorpion da black]

I think there could be some cultural differences here between the eastern and western parts of the world. I would think that eastern cultures would have a harder time accepting homosexuality than the west because of cultural beliefs about men and women, etc.
:giggle: This proves you're not afraid of gays!

hihi, you like that one huh :p...

and about the east, as you know originally this area of the world was built on religeous believes....all religions have started here...so i think people here have mellenia of increpted DNA of certain believes that are hard to change

[scorpion da black]

mars man
i will look up the information you pointed to...just for the love of learning and knowing better.
i just like to point that i have read a lot about sexuality in nature and in human habits.
although i am open to all ideas...i doubt that it is ever going to change my belief

[Mars Man]

I think that will be very informative. I will continue there on that thread after some of my work gets easier.

...i doubt that it is ever going to change my belief

Yes. In that your belief is that homosexuality is not a good thing, that may be so, but please do not forget that you have said the following:


being gay is against nature, religion, and the original way life is made...

I do not take this as actually being your belief, but rather simply something said in the heat of the moment. The statement is false in the first predicate (against nature), and true in the second predicate (religion) only when speaking of religious belief-systems or sects thereof which condemn homosexuality, and is false in the third predicate.

Anyway, I will share information and case studies with you too. What means of scientific inquiry to you have? Only the internet is not enough. I'm cheering you on !

[karlyboo]

scorpion da black- Those are some pretty serious views you have going on there. If I may, I would be interested to explore a couple of those thoughts.

You have made noises about accepting people doing their own thing, as long as it does not harm you in any way. That's fine and dandy. I myself am bisexual and can honestly say that given some of the views I have heard out in the wide world, I'm happy to accept that as a good compromise. You don't like it but you're happy to ignore it as long as I afford you the same.

There are however some interesting justifications and opinions elsewhere which don't come across as quite so equitable:

as for my opinion about not accpeting gays, well it is my opinion and you have to respect it as i respect yours....

I'd argue that's not even slightly true. You can respect a person and that person's right to have an opinion but you do not have to respect their opinion itself. The Ku Klux Klan are entitled to have an opinion but I'm under no obligation to respect the actual contents of that opinion.

you cant stereotype me as ignorant or arrogant...
this a point of view....whether i am pro-homosexuality, or not it is my view..

Again we come back to a person's thoughts being something immune from question. Yes, your view is your view- that does not automatically disallow interpretations of that view as being resolved to ignorant or arrogant.

and tokis i told you i hate the word homophobia...fear has nothing to do with shaping my believe.


And fear is also only one leg of the definition of the word. It is defined as being intolerance, aversion or fear of homosexuals (any dictionary, I used dictionary.com for a sample). Why is the concept of being afraid of homosexuals of such importance? This seems to be a recurring theme since it's not the first time you've mentioned it.


my believe isnt even based on religion alone...it is instinctal feeling that is explained as rejection to the idea of homosexuality..
it is that feeling every human has of right and wrong...instinctal conciense...same feeling any human will feel against steeling or killing.


I find the equating homosexuality to murder and theft offensive, but your point is seen.

What I find of interest (and the reason I'm dropping into the topic) is the assertion that your views are immutable and not open to question (and therefore anybody questioning them is intolerant and lacking in respect for your views) and that these views are in any case 'instinctive' (which sounds like a method to excuse 'negative' characteristics based on the factors beyond your control).

It's similar to discussions I've had with some extreme Christians who defined their stance on homosexuality with terms invoking God and God's will, which boils down to an abdication of higher reasoning: "I'm not a bigot, my God is!" so in this case: "I'm not ignorant, my instincts are!"

I've explored this before with several individuals and always found the answers intriguing so I would very much like to do something similar. Tell me about this feeling. I have no particular interest in labelling you arrogant or ignorant (it's unlikely to change anything), I have an interest in logic and reasoning. I wish to know your reasoning, and I believe I can learn that by hearing more of your feelings.

What feelings do you get around homosexuals? Do you need to know somebody is homosexual to have these feelings or do you get them around others also? How do these feelings manifest, what do they feel like? Are they only applicable to male homosexuality?

I come over as very confrontational but don't let that concern you, I'm simply forthright (with a certain sarcastic turn of phrase).

The very wise Mars Man has already disassembled your assertions that being gay is unnatural/against nature and others have commented that the sole purpose of their existence is not procreation (I tend to belong to the school of thought that the orphanages are already quite full enough and there are enough starving children in the world without the sole purpose of a relationship being defined as to further exacerbate these issues). There's nothing I can add to that. :122:

It's also interesting that the few posts with an issue against homosexuality have seemingly made points only against male homosexuality, either by referring to effeminacy in men ("fluffy clothing", "his perfume" etc.) or by use of words like 'gay(s)'. Am I to take it that female homosexuality is either perfectly acceptable, non-existent or not worth talking about?
Well, that was pretentious for only my second post. Sexuality (and the often inexplicably strong feelings of disgust it arouses in some individuals I have known) is something that for obvious reasons I have spent a long time trying to understand and comprehend and have become rather adept at discussing, I appreciate it may come over as aggressive. It's not intended to be.

Edited for my atrocious grammar.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

and tokis i told you i hate the word homophobia...fear has nothing to do with shaping my believe.
my believe isnt even based on religion alone...it is instinctal feeling that is explained as rejection to the idea of homosexuality..
it is that feeling every human has of right and wrong...instinctal conciense...same feeling any human will feel against steeling or killing.
i have no problem in being called a bad person about this particular matter for not accpeting homos....
because my view will not change.




All i have done is told you what i strongly believe about and questioned why you believe what you believe.
At the end of the day i will have to accept the fact that you have opinions that i may or may not agree with, 'tis a fact of life, but that doesn't mean i will agree with what you say (especially since i do not find your reasons a convincing arguement for me to change my opinions about subjects like homosexuality).


But in my opinion i do think you should seriously re-evaluate how you form your opinions, you base your opinions on gays on your basic instincts but then you go on about humanity- how can you even judge humanity when you base your opinions about people on instincts and feelings alone? How is that posibly rising above the way animals view the world? What happened to thoroughly thinking through things like why exactly you feel the way you do? There is a reason for everything. IMHO it is not good to act on feelings and instincts alone if enlightenment or self-improvement/progress is important to you.
Perhaps you are stuck in your beliefs, perhaps you are not, maybe you refuse to consider changing what you believe in, only you can know- maybe what i have said on this thread has only reinforced your gay-hate beliefs, maybe it hasn't, but if anything i have said to you has got through to you for better or for worse, i would like to discuss it.



plus guys stop refering to me as a fascist ...
i have travelled many times...and i have met a lot of gay guys...and it is not like i carried a crusade against them and killed them or any thing...i minded my own bussines and they minded theirs. at one occasion a gay man tried to ask me out and he said he finds me attractive...i didnt lash out at him, but very politely said " i am sorry, i dont mean to insult you, but i am not that kind of person"
having met gays doesnt mean accepting them........i will always be against the idea...
but it is not like i would be an uncivil person because of it


Well at least that is good to know you can at least be civil around gays, but i still think you should think deeply about the imaginary scenario i gave you to answer, because although what you do in your life is no real concern of mine, i would like it if you tried to experience different ways of viewing the world/thinking. I cannot deny that the topic of homosexuality is one i feel strongly about.

[Derfel]

Tokis is right, the fact that you refuse to imagine the scenario means that your beliefs are not open for discussion, and if you state that you don't wish your views to be discussed, rather you want them to simply accept the excuse that they must respect it because they must, yet you are clearly eager to discuss others' views of the same matter. Please choose an option, either you let your views to be discussed, torn apart and analyzed just like any other philosophy would be discussed here on these boards, or you don't discuss it at all.

[scorpion da black]

i have explained my self quit well, i think.
if you refer to my previous posts...plus when karly boo san mentioned anti homosexuality as only against gay men, that is not true...i am just as against gay women (lesbians) as well.
the idea of same sex intercourse is a one that i find wierd.

and karly boo san
you asked me to explain what kind of feeling i have when i meet some gays or discus about them or happen to face them. i will do that with honesty ( no insult what so ever is ment .......it is just honestyabout emotions i have
i feel disgust, wierdness, pitty for their sitiuation as if it is a diseas that made them abnormal, some times arrogant as if they are some lower life form, when meeting gay men i feel like they are lesser men and weak, as for women i feel like what a waste if they were hot :p....

and about what you said tokis chan...
i have read plenty about this matter...i have even put my self in their postion...
imagining how sad it is to have an urge that cant be had. how sad to fight for acceptance...
and even then i couldnt find any sympathy towards their cause...and chose not to accept them.

please for new comers read all i had to say before replying to me

again , when i am asked to have a logical reasoning for my views...isn't it enough that both my religion, my tradition , culture, the way i was brought up tought me this mentality??

but that is an excuse i use to satisfy your question...i dont mind what my tradition or culture ..etc say about this matter.
this choice i made by my self due to feelings i have in me...some of which i mentioned just now.

[Derfel]

If being normal means to detest all that is rare and unusual, I want to be the sickest f**k out there. Normally, normal people regard a defect as a flaw, but hey, its not necessarily true. Don't you get bored of all the normal things in life? Don't you want to kick life in the ribs to make it stray from its original course? Don't get me wrong, I don't wish to promote homosexuality as I find it weird myself, but you see, with a smile lol. Im not a hedonist or epicurean either, but I think we don't have the luxury to worry about a group of people (homosexual folks) who never done anything against us, and never will as a group. Its like jumping on a random person on the streets and telling him "Starting from this second you're my enemy, in the name of "this and that" DIE!"
Another interesting question, you say you wouldn't befriend a gay person... what if you already did? What if you have a gay friend who just doesn't, or rather daren't tell you about it? Don't tell me that its out of the question since you never know. Just what would you do? :D

[scorpion da black]

mmmmmmmmmmmm, this is a tough one....
but wouldnt i notice??
in most sitiuations, arent gay men more feminine and have some noticable behavior that normel men dont do?

lets say, what you say happened...i am afraid my frendship with him will just be "hi hello and bye"...but not as close as before, or lets go hunting, or how about you come over invite the palls and play poker...etc

[Derfel]

You wouldn't notice probably, most gay people don't go around saying that they're homosexual, and the thin, fragile, feminine kinda homosexual person is just a stereotype.

[scorpion da black]

well maybe you have met more homos , as there is rarely any here (it is illegal )
...so you know more on how they are.
but you got my answer

[Dutch Baka]

When I was a teenager this subject came up, and I have been thinking about it (by imaging) what do I like. It was pretty easy for me to came to the conclusion I like the female way more than the male. I do think some men can be beautiful, but it's more that I think I wish I would look like that or will look like that.

Then talking about the people around me.

My parents divorced when I was 13, and about 2 years later my mother wanted to talk to us. She didn't wanted to shock us by saying she was a lesbian so she told us first that she is a Bi-sexual. Of course we were shocked, but at that moment my brother and I only hoped for my mother to be happy again. So I excepted it, even though it felt a bit strange the first time a women came over and slept together with my mother... Well, I was pretty angry at that moment but I got used to it. My mother have had a couple of girlfriends before she got married with Carolien about 2 years ago.

I see her as my second mom, and do not care if they are lesbian. In fact I can't image any man together with my mom. I am happy for her, and she seems way happier than in the past (sorry dad).

I have nothing against gay people, I myself even had some offers... (which I politely refused). I only do not like the people that are showing it a bit too much... those leather gay people. Go ahead, but I do not feel comfortable if they are near me.

The same goes for other people whom are showing it too much as well, not only gay.

Anyway, I hope that Gay people will be seen more equally in the upcoming years, even though it still has a long way too go.

(does anyone know some articles about Gays in Japan, I would like to send some stuff to my mother... if you have some could you please PM them to me.)

[Mars Man]

as there is rarely any here (it is illegal )
...so you know more on how they are.

This is a major oxymoron--what sense is there in setting up a law against something over which human society has so very, very little control?

In Iran, some sex changes have been allowed (I'll tag on the source in an edit later, I'm in a rush at the moment) so why should there be a law against it in Lebanon?

[karlyboo]

again , when i am asked to have a logical reasoning for my views...isn't it enough that both my religion, my tradition , culture, the way i was brought up tought me this mentality??

Do you believe everything your religion, culture and upbringing told you?

[Tokis-Phoenix]

You wouldn't notice probably, most gay people don't go around saying that they're homosexual, and the thin, fragile, feminine kinda homosexual person is just a stereotype.



Yep it is a complete stereotype, you do get some guys which are very stereotypically gay ( for example over here in England there is a famous tv host guy called Graham Norton who is very popular but is also quite stereotypically gay), but you'd also be very suprised about some guys.

One of my best friends is gay, one day i went over to his house but he hadn't finished getting ready for us to go out and was still sitting down at his computer. He was on a gay dating website and as i sat down next to the computer to wait for him to finish getting ready i glanced at the website he was on. Really to be honest, there were a lot of guys pictures and profiles on the site and a large majority of them didn't look gay at all, they just looked like the guy next door, the guy who works in the bank, the postman, the salaryman guy etc- so really at the end of the day almost any stranger guy could be gay.

well maybe you have met more homos , as there is rarely any here (it is illegal )
...so you know more on how they are.
but you got my answer

Do you believe everything your religion, culture and upbringing told you?


For Scorpian man the answer is probably "yes", but even though i don't agree with his opinions, at the end of the day i do respect him for at least being honest and open about the way he feels- you get a lot of people now days that aren't so truthful about what they really think when it comes to stuff like this, so even though i disagree with his opinions, i am thankful that he can be so open and truthful about the way he feels/his opinions :cool: .

[Derfel]

Homosexuality being illegal, now thats another interesting question. How do you do that? :D Say, you've got a gay dog, what do you with it? Hand the poor bastard over to the police? :D Outlawing homosexual people lol, the Forest of Menwood, the Manly Men and Maid Melvin. Its fun how humans work, in most cases they detest stuff that differs from the usual, but never when they benefit from it. Just imagine if cows had two udders and double the milk no one would complain that they're unethical, but if they simply had two udders, without the additional milk they'd soon blame it on GMO, aliens, farmers mating with their cows, geological anomaly's, doomsday, apocalypse, satan and pretty much anything and everything negative.
We might not notice it, but mankind is pretty much a grotesque display, how fun we are, aren't we?

[scorpion da black]

i have explained my self quit well, i think.
if you refer to my previous posts...plus when karly boo san mentioned anti homosexuality as only against gay men, that is not true...i am just as against gay women (lesbians) as well.
the idea of same sex intercourse is a one that i find wierd.
and karly boo san
you asked me to explain what kind of feeling i have when i meet some gays or discus about them or happen to face them. i will do that with honesty ( no insult what so ever is ment .......it is just honestyabout emotions i have
i feel disgust, wierdness, pitty for their sitiuation as if it is a diseas that made them abnormal, some times arrogant as if they are some lower life form, when meeting gay men i feel like they are lesser men and weak, as for women i feel like what a waste if they were hot :p....
and about what you said tokis chan...
i have read plenty about this matter...i have even put my self in their postion...
imagining how sad it is to have an urge that cant be had. how sad to fight for acceptance...
and even then i couldnt find any sympathy towards their cause...and chose not to accept them.
please for new comers read all i had to say before replying to me
again , when i am asked to have a logical reasoning for my views...isn't it enough that both my religion, my tradition , culture, the way i was brought up tought me this mentality??
but that is an excuse i use to satisfy your question...i dont mind what my tradition or culture ..etc say about this matter.
this choice i made by my self due to feelings i have in me...some of which i mentioned just now.


i am quoting my self....
karly boo san read what i said after that sentence you quoted from me..you will get my answer.

tokis chan
thank you for being so understanding .... at least around people like your self i can express my self with out having to worry about negativity.

and about homosexuality being illegal..
well, that is true.
mars man san when transexuality happens and allowed in Iran or other Islamic nations it is very rare; and that happens when mainly a person has a mutation and has a part male and a part female organs...
so doctors compare which organs are dominant (the male or female) and on that the gender is decided...
not that homosexuality among normal biological men is allowed...
transexuality in special cases has nothing to do with homosexuality in all cases.

and derfel san
remember when i said i will even be against homosexuality ever being legal ...
did you think i was bluffing??
didnt you realize from that sentence that homosexuality is illegal??

it helps on keeping them off the streets so that the community wouldn't get used to have them...and it helps to give homos a reason to avoid ever showing them selves.
plus locking up a homosexual in a prison full of men is maybe a haven for him ( perhaps he will even thank law makers. )
sorry for being sarcastic..i was just lightening the atmosphere :blush:

[Derfel]

and derfel san
remember when i said i will even be against homosexuality ever being legal ...
did you think i was bluffing??
didnt you realize from that sentence that homosexuality is illegal??
it helps on keeping them off the streets so that the community wouldn't get used to have them...and it helps to give homos a reason to avoid ever showing them selves.
plus locking up a homosexual in a prison full of men is maybe a haven for him ( perhaps he will even thank law makers. )
sorry for being sarcastic..i was just lightening the atmosphere :blush:

That might be the case, which I can not deny, but inevitably as time goes those regulations will eventually lighten and someday get abolished.

[MummyMia]

shouldn't one question be how can you make a feeling illegal? me and my partner are both bisexual, my 14yr old is at that stage in life where she does not know what she wants but she knows that no matter what happens both me and her step-dad are behind her 100%. why should gay or bisesuals have to hide, they are people at the end of the day. people who think, feel and live just the same as everyone else. what does it matter what they do in their private lives? There are people out there who enjoy self harming and all sorts of weird sexual activities, but personally so long as they dont expect me to join in they can do what they want!!!!

[karlyboo]

karly boo san read what i said after that sentence you quoted from me..you will get my answer.

Fair enough, you obviously don't want to discuss it further.

at least around people like your self i can express my self with out having to worry about negativity.

Given the amount of negativity you obviously feel for a large group of diverse individuals based on one characteristic, I hope the irony of that statement isn't being lost... perhaps this might help your perceptions however-

(On a slight tangent, following on from some of the comments above) the way homosexuals are presented in the media is pretty bizarre IMO. Considering you only find out most people are homosexual when they happen to observe that their partner/love interest is of the same gender I've never really understood why television (in particular) has to wrap all gay men up as effeminate weirdos and all lesbians as doc-martin wearing auto mechanics. I think it's something to do with a safety zone for the viewer- that is what people expect and tolerate as an accepted representation of homosexuality. The idea that homosexuals in general look and act like everyone else might (presumably) come as a bit of a shock.

Will and Grace did a clever piece of writing with this, making the lead male character a normal guy (who happened to be homosexual) but balancing that for the viewer's sake with an extremely loud-and-proud homosexual stereotype friend. They succeeded in representing something for closer to what most gay men are like without shaking the viewer's established perceptions.

Some of the first pictures of homosexual marriages marriages were very telling in this regard IMO- they were all normal looking couples, usually in their late 30's or early 40's who could have been anybody. Absolutely anybody. They just happened to both be the same gender.

To be frank for all the people out there who dislike Pride marches based on the sheer outlandishness and flamboyance of some of the participants, I agree. There are some (mostly men) I've met who I've honestly thought would benefit well from a dry slap and a good lecture about not acting like a freak based solely on the one personal trait of their sexuality.

I think, again, its something to do with a safety zone. The adoption of overtly flamboyant and extreme mannerisms as a way to protect the actual person inside, a sort of mask if you will. Hiding your emotions when you feel often that you may be judged or treated badly if you reveal them, which also leads to the emotional detachment I've noticed (again, in some men) leading them to become rather shallow.

The stereotype isn't helped when some individuals feel so much that they are made into a martyr on the basis of their sexuality that they feel the need to identify every part of their lives with it and play up to the stereotype because it's how they identify themselves. In a similar way that you can't have a conversation with some passionate vegetarians without animal rights cropping up at some point, there are some people who define everything by their sexuality and (naturally) it gets rather frustrating to have that flagged up at every opportunity.

That's only in my experience. As I said, loud and effeminate men often come over as obnoxious IMO (although that's not restricted to homosexuals, I've met many straight men who satisfy the same criteria). However the vast majority of homosexuals don't belong to that niche in my experience.

Although I've less experience of the 'scene', all the lesbians I have met are the same. They were all normal, not a dungaree or shaved head in sight.

Apologies for the slight diversion in topic.

EDIT- well said, MummyMia.

[Mars Man]

mars man san when transexuality happens and allowed in Iran or other Islamic nations it is very rare; and that happens when mainly a person has a mutation and has a part male and a part female organs...

The problem here, however, is that sex is very much in the brain ! This is a very well established understanding. For that reason, there is the biological sex and the genetical sex, and the two can differ in some small ways, and sometimes if some very big ways.


not that homosexuality among normal biological men is allowed...
transexuality in special cases has nothing to do with homosexuality in all cases.

There may be some problem here with the logic. Could I get you to rephrase this please. As it is, I could take it as saying that no case of transsexual operation or orientation has any relation to being homosexual, which again is very wrong. A person whose brain sex and body sex (biological and genetical respectively) are so different that they desire to perform surgery to change their genetical sex state (thus transexual) is homosexual, in that they are born with one physical sex organ which does not match their brain sex.

Therefore, all transsexuals are homosexuals by nature, so being homosexual has everything to do with being transsexual.

For that reason, if it is, actually, illegal to be homosexual, then the legal system is saying that it's illegal to be human !! It really boils down to that, because it is a matter of nature...few actually chose or make that brain change, it just happens in the womb.

[Derfel]

This homosexual thing is an ethical paradox.
Normally it is accepted and encouraged to help people with "issues" whether its a mental illness, addiction, a simple bad habit, an annoying habit or feat, starting from the worst to the most mundane issue. Homosexuality in itself is not something good or bad, but our society's judgment's and prejudices pretty much turn it into a handicap. So, im thinking, if they're living with a handicap, even if its a light one, why are they hated?
Its the will of all natural things? Screw nature! If thats the case why not rush to the woods, get rid of our cloths and cover our genitals with leaves whilst singing, dancing and watching the beauties of creation.
The will of religion and religious philosophy? All of it was made people, it was necessary, once, long ago, and I could say its presence is still necessary to this day, but one shouldn't adjust his life to follow religion as it stands in the step-by-step guide for radicalism. Its more about maintaining peace, a fragile peace yeah, since we're humans, but still religion should stay behind people's back's to help them when necessary.
The way things are? Yet again a question of nature.
In this world we live in, there isn't a SINGLE unnatural thing. Anything and everything in any and every shape is natural, they're natural because they're positive (im using the meaning "fact" here instead of "good"). They undeniable, you can struggle as much as you want, you will never see and never build or make anything unnatural, simply because all that exists here in the cosmos is completely unrestricted, you can use it how you wish, and substance can resist how it can. Sure you can't venture into the space to bring back some acid from the Venus, but thats not because doing it would be unnatural, its simply because we didn't make something that could accomplish it yet. Not because its forbidden and there's a restriction on it, but simply because we didn't spend enough time working on it yet.
I don't know if God exists, although I wish to believe that he does, but raise your face to the sky, really, the cosmos is unbelievable. We're such weak beings, you could even say pathetic. Now do we have the right to pass judgment on anything? Do we have the right to label anything as good or bad?

[scorpion da black]

i agree with Derfel....and yet disagree in some points.
although it is true that societies label all matters as acceptable and non acceptable..
we have our sense of right and wrong, every human does, and that doesnt change from one nation to another...one culture or the other.

labeling soemthing wrong isnt only related to how our culture refers to what is ethical...

[Derfel]

we have our sense of right and wrong, every human does, and that doesnt change from one nation to another...one culture or the other.
labeling soemthing wrong isnt only related to how our culture refers to what is ethical...

Yes yes, but thats all in our head, life itself is natural, neutral, subjective and positive (yet again as a fact).
Our personality, our merits and flaws are how we interpret it.

[scorpion da black]

that makes more sense now :-)

[yumeitsumo]

I hate it when people make fun and joke gay/bi people. Nothing is wrong with those feelings. People can't help how they feel about others. Love is unexplainable! I am in love with my best friend. Does that make me bi?

[Derfel]

Not make fun of it? I refuse! Im not asking them to respect my sexual views either. Sexuality is such a minor detail, it means nothing, so it shouldn't be taken that damn seriously.

[karlyboo]

Not make fun of it? I refuse! Im not asking them to respect my sexual views either. Sexuality is such a minor detail, it means nothing, so it shouldn't be taken that damn seriously.

Like most jokes, it depends how far you take it and how well you know the person you're poking fun at. A close friend making a personal joke is generally fine, rather than walking up to some random chap on the street and doing it. Although the latter is probably a good way to lose a few teeth.

[Derfel]

walking up to some random chap on the street and doing it. Although the latter is probably a good way to lose a few teeth.

Lol someone who's dumb enough to do that surely doesn't deserve his teeth. :D

[karlyboo]

Lol someone who's dumb enough to do that surely doesn't deserve his teeth. :D

Sadly I seem to attract morons of exactly that level of intelligence like a fly to honey :( This summer I was attacked at a bus-stop by a damn kid (early-mid teens) whilst his mother looked on approvingly. Punched me in the back, in the face and then yanked my hair (with hair my length, that hurts). I'd have smacked the little b****** back but there's no way I could have fought back and come off like the better man.

The police turned up and arrested him but he was never charged through 'lack of evidence'. Considering it happened in a public place with about 50 people around that was a bit of a stretch. In true British style though I think they all looked the other way and pretended nothing was happening.

[Derfel]

Yeah I know, long hair gets in the way all the time.
But why did he attack you?
The skin around a person's hair is rather sensitive, so a strong pull is enough to confuse the opponent, that happened, didn't it?

[karlyboo]

Yeah I know, long hair gets in the way all the time.
But why did he attack you?
The skin around a person's hair is rather sensitive, so a strong pull is enough to confuse the opponent, that happened, didn't it?

I'm not sure why myself. I'm loathe to write it down to 'Because he was a gobby, arrogant little **** who just fancied it' but I'm not left with much choice :(

[Dimitree]

I hope i don't get flamed for this but here goes :blush:

Gay is wrong/ Bi also.

Why ?
Simple ... you just have to imagine for a moment what kind of person you must be in order to love your own sex, also imagine what kind of a person you must be to love having sex with them ...

I am 100% sure that if you are able to make yourself feel like a gay for just a moment you will understand why it's wrong.

I have nothing against gay/bi people but i will never ever ever say or think that what they chose to be is normal.


ok now you can start flaming me :souka:

[Derfel]

Okay now let me say something lol, I don't agree with Scorpion da Black that homosexuality is wrong, but he at least has arguments, unlike you who has none, now what are we talking about? Why say things simply for the sake of saying them? Besides, if you think like a gay person, being gay will be quite natural since if a gay person thought that being gay is unnatural he probably wouldn't be gay, and so he couldn't think it all through... lol

[Dimitree]

Why don't you read my post again ? Maby this time you will se all the words i wrote and take them in account ?
I sayd "I am 100% sure that if you are able to make yourself feel like a gay for just a moment" notice the just a moment words ?
and i would ask you the same question

Why say things simply for the sake of saying them?

Ofc that a killer finds it normal to kill.
And a rapist to rape.

My point was that if you can imagine being a gay ( imagine loving that male behind and so on and so on and all the tings that gey people love )for just a moment you will know why it's not normal and wrong.

[Derfel]

If they found it so damn wrong and horrible they wouldn't do it, its an URGE. And if you start thinking how "urges work", and "think (work) like them", you'll soon find yourself attempting to have sexual contact with anything thats has 35+ celsius body heat, and belongs to our species.

[Dimitree]

They can't find it wrong because they accept it as normal ... you sayd it yourself ... My example was for people who are wondering if its OK or not.
And if you think that gey people have an "Urge" for a lifetime then maby the word Urge just got a new meaning in my poor english vocab ...
And if you are saying that gay people are just normal people in every way but from time to time ( aprox 99% ) of their lifetime they have the Urge to dress like the opposite sex and have sex with the same sex then wow ...
what can i say :)
:souka:
Why discuss things that you obviusly so poorly understand ?
I see you are a simple kind of person who thinks that if something mews it's a cat.
To be a gay you need a complete personality change, world view change, and God knows what else change.
And you bring it to a "Urge" ....

[Derfel]

There's one simple thing here, and its not my way of thinking, but the fact that you exactly have 0 valid arguments.
To tell the truth it is not me who is as simple as a brick.
Perhaps you believe that homosexual people are from Mars? Or perhaps Pluto just to illustrate how "exotic" they are?
An urge to dress as females 99% of their lifetime huh?
I am rather sure that such beliefs are false, on the other hand I have the feeling that there are too many people who tend to point at others 99% of the time when their flaws are hidden by a magical sheet of glass, namely a monitor.
A normal person doesn't have an urge to dress any particular way all his bloody lifetime, every single second. Homosexual people are no different, and its not like all of them want to dress as females, not all of them. You probably saw two stereotypes in a film, and now you're jumping to conclusions. I see no other explanation. And most people don't have an urge to have sex with either gender 99% of their lifetime either, so why would homosexuals have an urge to have sex with their own gender all the time?
In all honesty, the picture you draw is nothing but a cheap stereotype, one that reeks of immaturity and ignorance.

[Dimitree]

I think this is my last attemp to communicate with you :)

It's you who states that they have URGE not me :) Are you confused today ?

"If they found it so damn wrong and horrible they wouldn't do it, its an URGE "

Are you still confused about whos believing what ?
Let me quote it just one more time because i know that you don't read what people write :)

"If they found it so damn wrong and horrible they wouldn't do it, its an URGE "

And here you are acusing me for beliving what You stated :)

I'll just quote it for a third time just in case :)

"If they found it so damn wrong and horrible they wouldn't do it, its an URGE "

Hopefuly this forum provides the ignore future so i will not have the luck of reading nonsesn from you any more :)

Glory to God i will be spared ^_^ thank you BB

[Derfel]

An urge doesn't mean that they're drooling just to do each other, l2lookupwordsinagodforsakendictionary.
And im not saying that they don't have an urge to initiate sexual contact with each other, simply stating that THEY DON'T HAVE IT ALL THE BLOODY TIME FROM SUNRISE TO SUNSET.
In a nutshell.
Btw, you didn't ignore me, you are waiting for the responses hoping that they will agree with your opinion, in case they won't, most likely I will remain "ignored", if they do you will probably launch a hate Crusade. My my.

[scorpion da black]

well, dimitree san....i agree with you and i know why you choose to be against homosexuality...

i am against as well....so dont be ashamed of saying your opinion.

[Mars Man]

And if you are saying that gay people are just normal people in every way but from time to time ( aprox 99% ) of their lifetime they have the Urge to dress like the opposite sex and have sex with the same sex then wow ...
what can i say . . .
To be a gay you need a complete personality change, world view change,

It appears obvious that you have not read the entire thread, Dimitree san. I would strongly encourage you to do so. I would also encourage to you present arguments with stats, facts, and data behind them, for your conclusions.

Then, please do be careful with the 'lean' in your posts. . . though we all here give room for variations in English, it is good to be careful.

It is a fact, nevertheless, that if the religious belief-systems which you and scorpion da black san adhere to had not taught that homosexuality was 'wrong' (for the reasons given by those same belief-systems as to how/why it had been considered 'wrong') neither of you would likely being making such statements other than due to your particular biological brain state.

[Dimitree]

It appears obvious that you have not read the entire thread, Dimitree san. I would strongly encourage you to do so. I would also encourage to you present arguments with stats, facts, and data behind them, for your conclusions.
Then, please do be careful with the 'lean' in your posts. . . though we all here give room for variations in English, it is good to be careful.
It is a fact, nevertheless, that if the religious belief-systems which you and scorpion da black san adhere to had not taught that homosexuality was 'wrong' (for the reasons given by those same belief-systems as to how/why it had been considered 'wrong') neither of you would likely being making such statements other than due to your particular biological brain state.

Thank you for asuming so much :)
Like i sayd (somewhere) i do my reality check and don't blindly rely on anything ever sayd by anyone.

You guys want arguments ? What arguments ? i don't understand :wave:
Gay people are totaly different people because (most of them) have normal biological bodys yet they don't show the "normal" behavior for their sex.
They feel like they are in the wrong skin/body.
The others who don't think that are showing attraction to the same sex which in my understanding in nothing short then desaster for the biological survival of men.( here some not "religius" related data i hope ... )
I don't understand why and how such a person is to be considered normal ?

And what do you mean with the "'lean' in your posts" please speak to me with avarage English words and avarage english meanings :souka: i don't understand :okashii:

edit: hmm come to think of it i don't remamber or think that anything i sayd has anything to do with any religion :/

[karlyboo]

Good style, Dimitree, just repeat your opinion over and over and eventually it will become commonly accepted fact. Well done, sir.

Those of you out there who actually either a. know what you're talking about or b. have at least given some thought to why you hold the opinions you do could learn a thing or two from this 'un.

On a non-sarcastic note I find it almost incredible that you honestly think you can lecture homosexuals/bisexuals with an argument that essentially runs 'Gayness is bad lol. Why? Cos if you were gay you'd know why.'

You clearly have absolutely no concept of differentiation between homosexuality, transvestism and transsexuality for a start... perhaps having a grasp of the subject matter would make your input on the subject more valuable?

The kitty has claws! My apologies to anyone else having to read my sarcastic diatribe...

[Mars Man]

If it is true then, Dimitree san, that you have read the entire thread, please provide the database and evidence that will, beyond a doubt, refute what has been shown here as backed up by much study, testing, and observation.

In doing so, please answer these questions and provide source material to back up your claims:

What makes a male homo sapien different from a female homo sapien?

What is the difference between the genetical sex state, and the biological sex state?

What is the general percentage of homosexuality among the animal species including the homo sapien?

To what degree to neuropeptides play a role in sexual state, personality, and general mental disposition?

Where can the line be drawn, if, in fact it can be, between human and female, human and male, chimpanzee and female, chimpanzee and male, rodent and female, rodent and male? (and please explain why or why not a line can actually be drawn) [that's six items]

Against which social group (regardless of size and chronological concerns) or person, can we make a comparison so as to distinguish 'normal' from 'not normal' and in what ways can it be shown one is thus 'normal' while the other is not?



And what do you mean with the "'lean' in your posts" please speak to me with avarage English words and avarage english meanings

You can understand the noun and verb 'lean,' by looking it up in dictionary. When a written proposition is said to have a 'lean' (noun) or to 'lean' in a certain direction, it is usually meant to say that there is a high degree of some property carried by the content or the style or writing. My reason for having asked you to be careful with the 'lean' in your posts, was because I wish to prevent unnecessary scenes in this Serious Discussions fora--your posts tend to come across as shouting, for some reason.


edit: hmm come to think of it i don't remamber or think that anything i sayd has anything to do with any religion :/

To claim that homosexuality is 'wrong' is to automatically assert that there is a moral issue involved. Moral issues which decree homosexuality as 'wrong' are religious belief-system based--both culturally and historically.

[Derfel]

A great post, the one above. But in my opinion there is no need to be scientific with someone who presented exactly 0 arguments, 0 facts and zilch evidences.
I shall dumb it down to a level, where I can happily smile about it: Dimitree is shooting into the air with blind bullets, spreading his beliefs based on his "gut judgment's".

Now, thinking about it, Im a very romantic person when it comes to the passage of time, and right at the moment I have this feeling, a mixture of nostalgia, sadness and only God knows what else. The Subject is the kind of person who decides to swim against the waves, but quits halfway, because he realizes there's nothing to gain in the end, since he failed with showing off his character, and promoting himself.
It is but hunch, but I think the subject will not exceed http://www.jref.com/forum/images/ranks/Danshaku.gif

[Skullcrushergurl]

MarsMan-san is awesome!
No one can call anyone else's sexual lifestyle wrong. It's disrespectful. This thread is to state your opinion and why IN A RESPECTFUL manner. If you don't agree just say it.
If it is against your ownbeliefs then so be it but don't bash other people because they aren't like you. State your views, don't try to force them on others.
Dimitree:I read your posts and it did seem...a little on the edge. Calm down hun. It isn't the end of the world.

[Dimitree]

If it is true then, Dimitree san, that you have read the entire thread, please provide the database and evidence that will, beyond a doubt, refute what has been shown here as backed up by much study, testing, and observation.
In doing so, please answer these questions and provide source material to back up your claims:
What makes a male homo sapien different from a female homo sapien?
What is the difference between the genetical sex state, and the biological sex state?
What is the general percentage of homosexuality among the animal species including the homo sapien?
To what degree to neuropeptides play a role in sexual state, personality, and general mental disposition?
Where can the line be drawn, if, in fact it can be, between human and female, human and male, chimpanzee and female, chimpanzee and male, rodent and female, rodent and male? (and please explain why or why not a line can actually be drawn) [that's six items]
Against which social group (regardless of size and chronological concerns) or person, can we make a comparison so as to distinguish 'normal' from 'not normal' and in what ways can it be shown one is thus 'normal' while the other is not?
You can understand the noun and verb 'lean,' by looking it up in dictionary. When a written proposition is said to have a 'lean' (noun) or to 'lean' in a certain direction, it is usually meant to say that there is a high degree of some property carried by the content or the style or writing. My reason for having asked you to be careful with the 'lean' in your posts, was because I wish to prevent unnecessary scenes in this Serious Discussions fora--your posts tend to come across as shouting, for some reason.
To claim that homosexuality is 'wrong' is to automatically assert that there is a moral issue involved. Moral issues which decree homosexuality as 'wrong' are religious belief-system based--both culturally and historically.

Well you are asking me to provide things that i don't believe in (not in a religius meaning)
I don't belive that sexyal orientation has anything to do with anything genetic, organic related.
The are as manye xample as you want of females with more testosteron then most males and they claim to be females and feel attraction towerds males.
And on the other hand just the oppisite is true also.
Therefor i belive that sexual orientation is psychics related and not genetics, organics.

Anyway :) please delete my messages.
If what i write seams like screaming in your mind then i predict my short term departure from this forum due to being banned.
I just can't change the way my words sound in peopls heads.

[Derfel]

Well you are asking me to provide things that i don't believe in (not in a religius meaning)
I don't belive that sexyal orientation has anything to do with anything genetic, organic related.
The are as manye xample as you want of females with more testosteron then most males and they claim to be females and feel attraction towerds males.
And on the other hand just the oppisite is true also.
Therefor i belive that sexual orientation is psychics related and not genetics, organics.
Anyway :) please delete my messages.
If what i write seams like screaming in your mind then i predict my short term departure from this forum due to being banned.
I just can't change the way my words sound in peopls heads.

It is interesting how this many grammar mistakes can appear on one page.
Although I have to add that I hope his prediction comes true.
As for facts, yet again he didn't present a single one.
I so hate this kind of attitude, going drama and grinding, grinding the samesamesamesamesame.... until! Wait? What until? There's no until! Only the samesamesame.
I wonder how does he wish to convince us that he is serious, let alone convince us that his beliefs are the only valid ones.

[Mars Man]

Well you are asking me to provide things that i don't believe in (not in a religius meaning)
I don't belive that sexyal orientation has anything to do with anything genetic, organic related.

Then please show us your reason for not believing that you are both organic and genetic. If you were to successfully show us that your belief were indeed a fact of nature, I know for a fact, that you could become eligable for a Nobel Prize--and papers in all the major scientific journals !!

[Chi65]

Just a little film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RlTAyNI8WE
so much for "normal" (or not) behaviour in nature
(by the way, I am good friends with gays and lesbians, without being one myself, and many of them are far more sensitive than the heteros, I made only good experiences)

[scorpion da black]

homosexuality mars man san is a mental state of mind, not biological!
anything mental can be changed....
so why not strait the mental disorder rather than accepting it (no insult was ment)

[MadamePapillon]

homosexuality mars man san is a mental state of mind, not biological!
anything mental can be changed....
so why not strait the mental disorder rather than accepting it (no insult was ment)

That's a dangerous attitute to take in this day and age when scientists are making progress in wiping out certian traits and behaviors of animals.

What you basically saying is that it's alright to change who people are simply because something about them doesn't agree with your delicate sensiblilities.
If you believe it is right to change who somebody natually is on some half-baked notion of right and wrong that comes from a book older than your great great grandfather...than I think it is you who is morally and spiritually corrupt.

Now me, being who I am, I like men and women equally. It's never been a big issue for me that I had to struggle to accept, it's just me, and it's never hurt or affected anyone negatively and I'd say I'm as far away from being an evil person as anybody. So for someone to say that I am immoral, and corrupt, and damned to burn in hell for all eternity because of that one, little insignificant trait....I just have to laugh, really, because if I'm going to hell than so are you, buddy. :blush:

[Mars Man]

homosexuality mars man san is a mental state of mind, not biological!
anything mental can be changed....
so why not strait the mental disorder rather than accepting it (no insult was ment)

Believe me, scorpion da black san, no insult was taken at all !! I have no bad feelings about you, as a person, at all. You are incorrect in your assertion, however. It has very well been shown that sexual orientation is indeed both a genetic determination AND a biological (chemical build and circumstance) determination, neither altered nor affected by environment and personal history in most cases.

OK...I will be having a lot more time in the up-coming week because today was the last day of classes at the uni. I'll spell it out in reports and conclusions reached in case studies by those who do the work in that field, so that you can come to understand what the reality is.

In that I have no bad feelings for you, I do hope, therefore, that you take the time to make an effort to study these case studies, papers, and reports. :cool:

[Hopeanuoli]

I see myself as straight, considering I fancy David Tennant *drools*

[Chi65]

So for someone to say that I am immoral, and corrupt, and damned to burn in hell for all eternity because of that one, little insignificant trait....I just have to laugh, really, because if I'm going to hell than so are you, buddy. :blush:

There is no such hell anyhow except the one, that humans make up to frighten each other, thus more a psychological matter (same with heaven), except a natural desaster, not made by man, but then it has nothing to do with beliefs and hits everyone equally, but especialy those, whose instincts don't work anymore (many animals can feel many such desasters way ahead for good reasons).
To use this concept for sexuality has been made up for ages, with different outcomes, according to the present rulers, human rulers, by the way, or manmade gods, "made" fit to fight their "properties", which is the very same.

[Derfel]

This is how I view this all, even though im completely heterosexual:
Im only afraid of death in this life, homosexuality can't cause death, so since I don't have anything against it by gut, there's no reason for me to hate it.

[scorpion da black]

madam papillon
why would you go on and bring up religion and call our holly book a book older thatn my grand parents??
i never brought up religion in non of my discussions on this thread
all i debated was a different view of scientific and philosophic views concerning this matter....but you chose to go on insulting.
mars man on the other hand gave a really great debate, and he said he will provide scientific case studies that i will gladly and seriousely read...perhaps i would have a change of heart!
you chose a wrong way trying to convince someone madam papillon chan

[karlyboo]

Mars Man is obviously particularly patient, like most good moderators.

[Derfel]

Mars Man is obviously particularly patient, like most good moderators.

You're saying I wouldn't make a good moderator? WHAAT? AM I NOT PATIENT? Lol, ok, that was a poor joke wasn't it? :D
I love this murderous aura. Teh evul about. This is how a good topic is.

[karlyboo]

You're saying I wouldn't make a good moderator? WHAAT? AM I NOT PATIENT? Lol, ok, that was a poor joke wasn't it? :D
I love this murderous aura. Teh evul about. This is how a good topic is.

More directed at me than anybody else. I program online communities but actually moderating them is something else. Usually takes me about 10 minutes before I start considering making people eat their own keyboards... I'm nice like that ;)

[Kyoto Returnee]

You're saying I wouldn't make a good moderator? WHAAT? AM I NOT PATIENT? Lol, ok, that was a poor joke wasn't it? :D
I love this murderous aura. Teh evul about. This is how a good topic is.

What's a "murderous aura?"

Is that something to do with your stand oujt signature photo?

[Derfel]

What's a "murderous aura?"

Is that something to do with your stand oujt signature photo?

What's a "signature photo?" Is that a photo made with letters?

You either mean
a, My avatar.
b, My personal photo.

In case a, is the correct one. He is called Eddy, you could say he's the "mascot" of Iron Maiden (please don't ask what Iron Maiden is).

In case it is b, that is correct. Its a cat, one of the three I have. She is called Mao, and although, you could mistake her for an ordinary cat, I must tell you she's rather fearsome. The gutted mouses and other small mammals around our entrance can prove it.

Hehe when I was playing World of Warcraft, I had this guild, I set up everything for it, including a forum. So everything was going fine, people started applying, among them some morons too. And the problems began when I told them that they're retarded and they should apply for a cremation rather than a guild. Needless to say, the guild soon fell apart.

Btw, we're all waiting the argument from the contra-homosexual camp. Arguments anyone?

[A ke bono kane kotto]

We don't have gay people here. I have never met any. :clueless: I believe this has to do with the fact that the Spaniards massacred everyone that wasn't a good Catholic during the Holy Inquisition. You can't be Catholic and gay. The Church prohibits it. Gayness being hereditary (so do doctors say), gay genes have been wiped out of this region. If they weren't killed, they fled to the Netherlands or the USA, which explains that both countries have so many of them now. :D

[Derfel]

The Church prohibits it. Gayness being hereditary (so do doctors say)

Don't you think they'd go extinct that way? :D

[A ke bono kane kotto]

Don't you think they'd go extinct that way? :D

Not if they make babies to hide the truth from their parents. :blush:

[Derfel]

A deciding factor is how one was brought up. The environment, the emotions received from relatives and such.

[scorpion da black]

wow catholics rock

(not talking about massacres..just kidding :p )

[Chi65]

...and seemed to have taken normal tenderness away from some men, who then thought, that it belongs to being gay or so.
I knew enough catholics, who right away disagreed in showing tender feelings as male, also towards women, saying, that they are not gay, thus why!
I gave up on them, they were unberarable. And then they became extremely dissappointed, if I had other and tender friends instead of them.
They had no idea, what they were missing and were sticking to alcohol later on, which surely did not solve the problem either, in contrary.

No wonder, there is so much underlying aggressions in many. But I wonder, when some men will wake up...

[Derfel]

Whether a man choses to be tough, sensitive or whatever is entirely up to him. Its the same boring debate again. "Ohh why don't you men have a heard? Why don't you let your tears flow.... why no?"
You know why? Cause its in our genes. Being the ones who were expected to hunt(and that wasn't as easy as some people think it is), go to war, always be on guard, men became tough, much has changed since those times, but still whats in our nature can only be changed a but for now. I don't agree with being tough to the point of being rude, but still, men crying all the time for no apparent reason, and generally being oversensitive isn't something that is acceptable either.

[Tsuyoiko]

...and seemed to have taken normal tenderness away from some men, who then thought, that it belongs to being gay or so.I heard that, in the west at least, those attitudes started because of the Oscar Wilde trial. Since the trial was so public, men became afraid to show any affection towards other men for fear of falling under suspicion. Seems plausible.

[Chi65]

For example, as for one reason.
And it does not have to do with crying men, if thats all(??) someone understands about feelings (although it is part of it). I don't believe at all that it is just genes, because in several other cultures tenderness is very well a wanted part of men also, they are even seen as uncomplete and not grown up, if they can't stand up for their feelings.
Thats a lacking, every psychologist can tell you, that it is going kind of underground with a "second life" or/and agressions.
Someone who accepts and trains that sensitive part in him could be much more relaxed and warmhearted and smiling, also because the social life is probably much easier even.
I have seen many men in China, holding hands, for example, that does not mean, that they are gay!
Also men kissing each other (on the cheeks!) for welcome also belongs to this.
We did have some eastern films someyears ago, as another example, that dealt with crying men, it was very interesting indeed!

But I meant the relation to women too. If some men shrug by simple tender touch, starting with the cheeks, one should be carefull as a women.

Its often enough the upbringing and thus not being used to it, because of false behaviours and prejuduces about it. But it does not mean, that there is no general need, nor gene-related. To me, THAT is a prejudice, coming from such older stories, right.
Intensity and fearlessness, and inner strength from this, does come from masterings, not denyings of the senses. Thats an entirely different thing alltogether.

We had some polls lately in Germany, about what women would like men to show much more often. It was on the first place, far above everything else: Tenderness, and I think, on the third place: Humour
That speaks clear language to me and mirrors my own experiences.

[Derfel]

Although I don't like the whole kissing men part, I don't like the holding hands part either, but I do agree with the humor issue. Men must have some twisted black humor eh? :D

[karlyboo]

wow catholics rock
(not talking about massacres..just kidding :p )

I don't find that even remotely funny.

Gayness being hereditary (so do doctors say), gay genes have been wiped out of this region.

Because gay parents have gay children the same way straight parents have straight children?

[scorpion da black]

i was just kidding give it a rest bro :p
talking about lighting the air a bit.

so homosexuals are more sensetive than other people?

[Chi65]

Very often, so are many artists, and many switch to find out about their homosexuality by finding another one who does not play the agressive part for women, for example. I know some very nice ones, both, as couples, but also nice to women, even if without sexual urges, which can at times be wonderfull for a woman who suffered under agressions and thus thinks all men are alike.
But there are the harder ones too. You find all parts in them as well, yet the more silent ones you do not see so often, thus many think, its only the loud ones (because they appear more often in the media), which is very wrong.
One does not have to like the kissing and handholding parts, but some of them do, and there is nothing wrong with it then, they harm no one. I just smile, if they like it. . .

Yes, and I found a lot of humour around them, which was another wonderfull aspect.
But in general, humour is great, also in heteros, and why not black humour? See the thread about most liked japanese men, hehe, I am one for those black humoured as well, as you can see there, they are particularly funny! Its quite a bonus indeed! They won our Berliner hearts quickly (but are not homosexual to my knowledge), but also, because they can be real sweethearts on the other side. Its that interesting range, you know.:cool:
And they don't mind looking ugly/nasty as well, which is at least as funny.

Perfect (onesided) heroes with killing machines and no laughter are boring in the long run.
Face it, men!

[scorpion da black]

i so agree to your last part chi65 :p

[Derfel]

Perfect (onesided) heroes with killing machines and no laughter are boring in the long run.
Face it, men!

I agree too, obviously the Terminator kind will die out.

[Chi65]

Except for laughter's sake, but who wants to be laughed about instead of laughed at?

If we make this clear. . .

By the way, I don't mind to be laughed about, in a way, and to cite some japanese friends:
We can really laugh about ourselves (thats it!)
Also meaning in the media. I hope, its really true. But I also made such experiences over there and that raised a certain big sympathy in me.
We had some most hilarious and often "anti hero" films coming from Japan, that seemed to prove this. Kitano amongst them too, however serious he can be at times.
Enough people asked openly during after-film -discussions:
"How comes, that the japanese films are so especially hilarious?"
We still have no real answer, but enjoy this beside "english humour".

This does not make japanese men particularly sexy, but they get a lot of sympathy here this way. And believe me, I know some "high" ones, who also confirmed me aboiut this with own behaviour and were fine companies and examples for this (Well, I was the right audience for such a "show", to be honest). They managed to get such ones over to the embassy here too, welldone indeed.

Bamboo-flexibility versus Oaktrees? Works well in the long run. ;-)

It is also interesting and remarkable, that such people were taken much more seriously, when they really had an important issue, not to forget this. ;-)

[Mavrek]

I am a guy and likes only to have sex with the girls.For those who are gay or bi sexual I don't care.I have adopt the policy of don't ask and don't tell.

[karlyboo]

i was just kidding give it a rest bro :p
talking about lighting the air a bit.
so homosexuals are more sensetive than other people?

I felt it was an unnecessary contribution to the topic.

[Tomii515]

so mars man san that makes me a dinousor old ignorant...since...
i dont like the idea of homosexuality, i dont except it....i will be against ever making it legal in my part of the world ....i dont even except ever having a gay freind...
and i hate when people call that homophobia...what is there to fear in a gay person??
will he drown me using his perfume??
i would better call it anti-homosexuality...or fascism against homos...
i can live with these names.
being gay is against nature, religion, and the original way life is made...

You know, some gay or bisexual people do want to be the way they are, and a lot of them kill themsleves because of it. The ones by birth, I mean. They can't help it, and they can't change it, no matter if they accept it or not, like it or not, whatever. It's not their fault, and you shouldn't discrimnate against them because of this.

i'm bisexual, and most of the time I don't really like it. But lately, I've accepted it and been happier since I told everyone at school and my familt and stuff. Before that, I wanted to kill myself. I hated it and I too thought gay people were nasty; or that being gay was nasty. But, really, it's not.

Saying gay is against nature, that's like saying interracial relationships are bad, too.

It's about love, not race, gender, whatever. :souka:

[Derfel]

Lately people are a bit too aware of their sexual orientation. Honestly, just who gives a damn?
When you look at it, what is opposing homosexuality? Religion. What is religion for? To keep the people together for cautions sake, and protect them from external threats such as an opposing religion.
Now, homosexuality can "occur" anytime, in/with any random being. It existed in primordial times, it exists now, and it will continue to exist.
While religion is rather, rather young compared to it.
Religion doesn't even have the smallest insight of the whole question.
Some jerk declared that: "This, this, this and this is bad!" And now the folks follow him blindly, congrats on doing that.
Simply put homosexuality is older than religion, and its older than the definition of it, therefore no one has the right to label it good or bad, evil or divine or whatever.
Honestly, Im not against my own religion, but I still say that one must hold religion's reigns hard and steadily.
While I agree that religion was a good thing in its time, it is ridiculous to follow its teachings 100% correctly.
Take the Qur'an and the Bible for now. There were, and still are loads of lowlifes dedicated to interpret every single word of it. And they're not the first ones, not the hundredth ones, there were bloody thousands and millions before them.
A single human can err on something obvious, but when a single script goes through the hands of thousands, the outcome is guaranteed to be meaningless rubbish.
Although we're living in 21st century, there are still ill-bred morons in every single religion who are just awaiting the opportunity to spread their fundamentalist bullcrap.

[Mavrek]

I am a guy and always like to have sex with girls.I never used the other stuff to fulfill my sexual desires.

[Derfel]

I am a guy and always like to have sex with girls.I never used the other stuff to fulfill my sexual desires.

Umm, we're all kinda glad, but that comment deserves the "Randomness Award".
In all honesty, how does it even contribute to the thread? :D

[ninjinsamax3]

In USA--there are those people who do worry. As some of my classmates had tested, did a project on observing gay people, in which these classmates are not, but when they tested out with two Asian guys, holding hands walking through the park, everyone started staring at them. This means that many people still yet do not accept them. It is more like values that people tend to keep.

I have no problem with "gay" people, but I do feel uncomfortable. I am not trying discriminate them, since I can careless if they do exist or not; they do deserve the benefit of being normal and not be accused. I feel uncomfortable around men, so maybe that is why I feel uncomfortable around gay men.

My cousin use to touch me sensitively scaring the lights out of me, since it felt awkward.


Have no idea, Derfel, but he is trying to say that he will never have sex with gay men?

[Derfel]

I tend to avoid some types of physical contact with my own gender as well, but I don't have any problem with shaking hands (not holding hands before someone misunderstands), putting my arm over the shoulder of a mate or slapping them in the shoulder.
On the other hand I don't kiss people's cheeks whether they're male or female, nor do I let them do that to me.

I don't really feel uncomfortable with gay folks either, not that I know many. Simply if someone does something dodgy and rash, I'll just tell him to piss off, should that and threats be insufficient, I'll just smack him. Although Im that I never been in that situation.

[scorpion da black]

I felt it was an unnecessary contribution to the topic.

karlyboo san :okashii:
ok i take my words back...
i dont want to upset anyone...it is not like me...

guess a joke in one area of the world isn't taken the same every where ...
i should have known better...
well you wont see careless comments from me again cross my heart :wave: :wave:

i just want to remind you that i take a joke lot better than you do karlyboo san :okashii:

[karlyboo]

i just want to remind you that i take a joke lot better than you do karlyboo san :okashii:

Magnanimous. No, really.

[Derfel]

Lol, I feel the cold hatred :D

[kairu]

Haha, okay so few people have mentioned the habits of homosexuals, and it just kind of made me go "egoaehgoa," so I want to address that, namely.

One quote was:
I so hate it when they dress all fluffy and feminine, well they more like half naked on the streets. They just make themselves a bad reputation and thats why some people look at them as a "bad influence" or a potential source of "bad influence".

I agree, this does create a reputation. Whether it is bad or not, that's a matter of taste. But my point in bringing this up is that it is a reputation that is a generalization. Not all gay men wear perfume and are fashion savvy or can decorate a room and keep a clean house.

I am gay. The other day I went out wearing a striped polo with plaid pants and diamond-patterned shoes. I came back after going to two classes and my roommate, a funny straight Jewish kid, told me that I was the worst gay ever... And then proceeded to explain why I was, since I didn't know what he was talking about (that, apparently, any combination of two of those things don't go together, let alone all three). That's my fashion for you (I do think/hope that sometimes it's better, haha, but whatever). As for tidiness, you should see my room, or at least, the little of it that can be seen ;).

In the same way, not all lesbians are butch and scary (haha), and the rest of them aren't stupid and slutty, either. As with every demographic, the people within the homosexual demographic vary infinitely.

Now, as for the question of whether or not gay marriage should be legal, consider this: If you don't mind homosexuals, even if you want them to do whatever they do in the privacy of their own homes or whatever (although this is a bit of a hypocritical opinion for those who don't believe that heterosexual pairings should be enacted in the same way-kept in the privacy of the home), then why shouldn't homosexuals be allowed to marry? It doesn't affect you, and if you don't care what they do as long as it doesn't affect you, then you shouldn't care about gay marriages. Right? Or, with a population predicted to be almost 9billion by the year 2050 (I got that little stat from wikipedia, so when it comes to 100% credibility, I'm not sure), is it going to affect you because gay marriages = no more babies = end of humanity?

I personally think that a slight decline in population growth that doesn't involve genocide might be a nice little perk... Anybody else? :p

Also, this civil union crap gets on my nerves a bit, because eventually it's going to get to the point at which it will be exactly the same as marriage, just with a different name. Now, if that'll make people happy, I don't care, it's fine with me. It just seems a bit silly.

Of course, I fully support same-sex marriages. Why wouldn't I? I actually think it is absurd that it is an issue. We shouldn't be focused on it because it's so trivial. It will get to the point at which it is legalized, unless the world ends in the next few years or something (never know, it could happen).

Well anyway, I don't worry about it too much. I just do my part and put in my two yen every once in a while ;-).

[Derfel]

I personally think that a slight decline in population growth that doesn't involve genocide might be a nice little perk... Anybody else? :p

Thats a joke, but still I wish it was true, people are just breeding and breeding, we'll bloody suffer cause everyone wants a brat, "ohh they're so cute, I want a human pet too."

Not that I mind homosexuality, but honestly, if it could suppress that rotten demographic explosion I swear I'd go around town telling people to "Be gay! Be gay!"
The world could end? Well although you meant it as a joke, the comfortable world we (the lucky few not living in hundredth world countries) live in sure will end if we keep the pace at which our population grows.

Sorry, went a bit off topic, but still, too many folks, too many folks. Stop having kids people.

[karlyboo]

Sorry, went a bit off topic, but still, too many folks, too many folks. Stop having kids people.

But that is the ONLY reason people should be allowed to be together! To Marry and make more children, because there aren't enough! More I say! Nobody who can't make babies should be allowed to marry, including homosexuals, the elderly, the infertile, the none-too-frisky and anybody who votes Democrat!

[kairu]

Nobody who can't make babies should be allowed to marry, including homosexuals, the elderly, the infertile, the none-too-frisky and anybody who votes Democrat!

That's absurd! It is neither the fault of the elderly nor the infertile that they are that way! At least they generally represent the positive male-female union that is the foundation for an ideal family! Under other circumstances, having children would be possible for them! And democrats, even though their stance may be disagreeable, should still be able to have children! It would be silly to claim otherwise!

Homosexuals, though... now that's a different story! They could never have children, even those that are fertile and elderly and all the rest... so that shouldn't be allowed.

:p

It's actually sad how many times I've heard this argument.

[Derfel]

But that is the ONLY reason people should be allowed to be together! To Marry and make more children, because there aren't enough! More I say! Nobody who can't make babies should be allowed to marry, including homosexuals, the elderly, the infertile, the none-too-frisky and anybody who votes Democrat!

Are you by any chance a left wing extremist lol? :D
Building an utopia.

[karlyboo]

Are you by any chance a left wing extremist lol? :D
Building an utopia.

I'm generally a libertarian :) I find the intrusiveness of left-wing philosophies very worrying :(

[Derfel]

I'm generally a libertarian :) I find the intrusiveness of left-wing philosophies very worrying :(

I generally find every philosophy other than mine very worrying, im a megalomaniac *****.

[Mars Man]

Firstly, I'd like to aplogize for not getting back here sooner...I'm sorry. I had taken a bit of a break from my 'desk work' here, and then did some other things first.

There had been a little off topic stuff that I had, at least, read, but though to myself..."Hey, it's the Holiday Season...let it go...."

And with that, I will go into the presentation I had promised. Scorpion da black san, I do hope that you will (if you haven't already) carefully go over some main points that are found in the thread Love, Marriage, and Sex-what is the truth?!. Since the objective is to learn, I strongly suggest that you print out the certain pages with a few major posts. The posts which I reason will be most essential for a proper understanding on this matter as understood by the major players at the moment, are post numbers 1, 2, 12, 13, 15, 30, 33, 38, 39. Please do read them, and not only that, but meditate on (study) them, and connect the dots.

POINT NUMBER ONE

homosexuality is a mental state of mind, not biological!
anything mental can be changed....
so why not strait the mental disorder rather than accepting it (from post #99 on page 4 of this thread)

The above is the proposition that we are looking at, and testing here. For that reason, let's first break down the several units of the proposition, in order to see what is being stated:

homosexuality is a mental state of mind, not biological!

Here we will see that 'mental' and 'mind' merge meanings because 'mental' is of necessity of the 'mind.' We therefore have the clause, 'homosexuality is a state of mind.' We will also find that the words mental state, and mind are interchangeable with that of 'brain,' therefore we could equally reason that the expression state of mind equals 'brain state.' In conclusion, therefore, we have the equivalent statement: Homosexuality is a state of brain.

Homosexuality, though well understood by all, should be looked at too, just to make all terms as clear as can be. 'Homo,' of course, came from the Greek and is rendered by the English 'same.' For the state that sex is genetically, please see posts numbers 30 and 33 in the thread on Love, Sex, and Marriage. (for in the word 'homosexual,' the element 'sex' is referring to the state, rather than the act)

For the state that sex is biologically, part can be seen in those immediately above mentioned posts, and the rest will be brought out on this thread. This is because when we apply the epithet 'homosexual' to an animal we are indicating that the sexual attachment or drive of that animal is directed towards animals of that species (most usually) which are of the same genetical sex state--in that the animal has by the genetical XY, XX (among a few others such as XO, XXY, XYY, and even a rare XXXY, XYYY) mechanism developed the body parts of male or female, or both (in few cases).

We are effectively saying that when we look at the naturally visible body of that animal, we can see a sex state from the organs displayed. This is the genetic discription, and it is this discription alone that the term homosexual was built upon. This fact is due to the lack of understanding of the much finer nuances of the biological (chemical) states the differentiate sexual states biologically and by that very extension, neurologically.

We thus can arrive at the inferred and equivalent statement as being 'Having an attachment or a sex drive nature which focuses on members of the same genetical sex build is a state of brain.'

Homosexuality is. . . not biological.

This is the next part to look at. Of course, the subject of that clause is homosexuality, and the premise is that it is not biological. It will be found that the common dictionary explanation under that entry (biology, biological) lacks in that it does not go into the detail that will be found through the subdivisions under that general field in the pure and natural sciences.

There is no contest by or from those in the field that what is identified as being a biological matter, can be distinguished from being a genetical matter while all along, in the broadest usage of the term biological, we can say that the whole of any animal is biological. It is important to understand this difference in word usage, and while I wish not to charge the author of the quote we are looking at as not having paid attention to that matter, I would yet like to point out this difference here.

In this field, the matters of hormonal effects and precursors and receptors and all that such entail, are placed under the 'biological' heading, and not under the 'genetical' heading. The portion of the brain that is developed by and built due to these chemical processes in the embryo are also attributed to the biological factor, and the portions of the brain over and against this 'hardwired' portion, and which are controlled by and operate due to the hormonal presence are also placed under the biological sector.

We can then see that the interchangeable clause we are now looking at becomes, 'Having an attachment of sex drive which focuses on members of the same genetical sex build is not biological. Due to the contradiction which then has been brought to light, as a matter of definiton of terms (at least at the moment), we will find that the statement is false.

This is true in that we have seen that brain elements which bring on the mental portion of sex drive and sex thinking is neurological, therefore biological rather than genetical. However, this being true of the statement at the moment, as regards the terms used, it is true as regards the what is actually known in the field too. I will next go into that.

[scorpion da black]

really awesome debate mars man san

how ever i have some points to set:

when speaking about homosexuality being wrong, i am speaking about normal (XX & XY ) humans..not at mutations made by nature...
even in religion (at least my religion) doesn't blame those few mutated people for their mutation ..in arabic they are called "shakar" a breed that is not man nor women...a mutated being !
and "shakar" are not blamed for their sexual orientations when normal XX XY humans are!

point two..scientists didnt find any gene related to homosexual desires...( that is what i heard from a study..i will search for it)
as it is known, there is genes related to the tendency to kill ..there is genes related to most of human behavior...
but scientists didn't find any gene related to homosexuality ... perhaps it exists but they still didn't discover it ..
until they do; when i say homosexuality is a mental state then this statement holds.
if there was a possible gene for homosexuality wouldn't religious societies pursue a mean to dlete it off the human genome??

[Derfel]

if there was a possible gene for homosexuality wouldn't religious societies pursue a mean to dlete it off the human genome??

The New Age hardcore retarded sects perhaps, any older religion considers gene surgery taboo, so no, they wouldn't, or at least not officially, as we know, religion often has nothing to do with faith.
Anyone with the smallest economical sense would put those homosexual genes inside folks so they wouldn't breed.

[scorpion da black]

Derfel san
you cant call people with specific belief retarded man ...
as well as when people feel offended when th other sides questions western systems lets say

[karlyboo]

Derfel san
you cant call people with specific belief retarded man ...

How's that different to saying homosexuals are against nature? It's an entitled opinion, in the final analysis, whether you agree with it or not. I (as you may have gathered) don't care for some of your opinions but I'd never deny that you have a right to them (as I to mine).

[Mars Man]

What you have posted in your response, scorpion da black san, very heavily insinuates your desire to ignore for the benefit of some preconcluded unfairly examed opinion !!!

Are you actually aware of just what you are saying? You have given the typical XX, XY pattern of genetical build as being the 'correct' form of amimal build. Yet, you have not explained in any terms at all, other than your belief-system's instilled ideology, as to why it is 'wrong,' and on what grounds we have to argue, from nature itself, that it is wrong.

For example, you use the terminology 'mutated people.' That is in itself a derivative of a prior assumption that there is a correctness in the average, and a not only incorrectness in the non-average, but a fault...a delinquency, in the non-average.

Whatever it is you may have read or may have come across is obviously incorrect in this case--as it has left in your mind, the inability to reconcile the facts of nature against nature itself. In that it has, in your mind, left you with the understanding that a particular socio-cultural religious belief-system built from ignorance is in fact more scientifically correct than the latest knowledge of which the previous authors most obviously had been totally unaware of.




and "shakar" are not blamed for their sexual orientations when normal XX XY humans are!

Take this claim, for example. What on earth are you trying to state? Please, now, think about it !! Are you saying that animals who have the XX chromosome combination are to blame for having that XX chromosome combintion? Are you trying to say that women are by nature to be blamed?

Are you trying to claim that by nature the male animal (XY) is to be blamed? Obviously you have missed the point. There is a difference between the genetical being and the biological being.

If you were to prove true to being of a mind to investigate beyond what you simply may have found via the religious belief-system environment in which you live, then I would fully encourage you. As it is, your claim--whether you realize it or not, has already been shown to be false...and yet you cling to it?

That is evidence against you on the international scientific scene, bro...what's up?

[Derfel]

I'd put it like this, people on forums like this never convince each other, they just get tired of arguing, and either they say "everyone has right to his opinion" or someone gets really, really messed and pissed, so he pretends to be convinced. When you look at it my posts didn't convince you, nor could Mars Man with posts that would be befitting of a national geographic article, nor could karlyboo, nor could you convince any of us.
In topics like this people only gather to beat their chests.
And since that is the case, there's one policy everyone keeps:
Everyone's wrong, except for those who agree with me.

[karlyboo]

I'd put it like this, people on forums like this never convince each other, they just get tired of arguing, and either they say "everyone has right to his opinion" or someone gets really, really messed and pissed, so he pretends to be convinced. When you look at it my posts didn't convince you, nor could Mars Man with posts that would be befitting of a national geographic article, nor could karlyboo, nor could you convince any of us.
In topics like this people only gather to beat their chests.
And since that is the case, there's one policy everyone keeps:
Everyone's wrong, except for those who agree with me.

You, sir, have brought light to darkness :122:

[Mars Man]

LOL !! Yet so true does that statement ring... Yet here, if I may say so, for our 'Serious Discussions' section, I wish to encourage all to think beyond and outside the box...to ponder and meditate...yes, even question each and every claim, up-until-now understanding (in whatever realm of information), and assertion for all they are worth.

My objective is not, per se, to convince, but to educate. For that reason, there would surely reach a point at which I would say, 'ok. . . if one does not follow, it is not my duty to cause that one to be of such conviction, nor is it my duty to be responsible for the errancy of that person.

I will thus go on....

[karlyboo]

LOL !! Yet so true does that statement ring... Yet here, if I may say so, for our 'Serious Discussions' section, I wish to encourage all to think beyond and outside the box...to ponder and meditate...yes, even question each and every claim, up-until-now understanding (in whatever realm of information), and assertion for all they are worth.
My objective is not, per se, to convince, but to educate. For that reason, there would surely reach a point at which I would say, 'ok. . . if one does not follow, it is not my duty to cause that one to be of such conviction, nor is it my duty to be responsible for the errancy of that person.
I will thus go on....

I wish I were that patient. Next time I'm in your neck of the woods I think I owe you a beer :)

[scorpion da black]

:okashii:
misunderstood again..
i am not labeling people here mars man san..
if you re-read what i had to say you would understand...

i am not against any one...what i meant was : " only normal people are blamed for having a different sexual orientations....while mutated people are not blamed for their biological needs."
only normal people are put under consideration by religion when speaking about the taboo of homosexuality..

plus i am not stating whether i personally am with that debate that religion gives or not...that fact that i am from a faith that considers homosexuality taboo doesn't make me hate homosexuality...
that is why i am digging into this debate..so that i will get the full picture and then judge whether to accept that idea or not...
and unlike you said Derfel san...
if i was proven wrong, i would gladly change my thought about the matter...

is it wrong to ask question?

[Derfel]

and unlike you said Derfel san...
if i was proven wrong, i would gladly change my thought about the matter...
is it wrong to ask question?

Are you an on/off switch than? Every second time you're proven wrong you return to being right again?

[scorpion da black]

derfel; why do you twist ones words man??
if i knew i made a mistake in believing one thing wouldn't change it to pursue a right path?

[karlyboo]

I think it's more the contradiction that one minute you have a feeling that its disgusting that you can't change and the next you're open to changing your mind, one moment you support criminal punishment for homosexuals and next moment decide you hate homosexuality. To be honest I'm finding that highly confusing also.

[Derfel]

Im not twisting your words. Every single time someone proves you wrong scientifically you bring ethics and religion, and say its wrong. Every time some questions your beliefs ethically you bring science to back your statements.
Its like a huge glass mirror that reflects facts.

Its like telling a bard to sing a song for you, listening to it, and in the end not paying saying that he sang too silently.
If you're not gonna pay, don't listen.
It makes it feel like Mars Man, karlyboo, Tsuyoiko, Chi, myself and a whole bunch of others were barking without a voice coming out.

[Goldiegirl]

I think it comes down to this, you can believe what you want, but you have no right to force your beliefs or judgments on anyone else. It's none of anyones business if you are homosexual, bisexual, asexual, or heterosexual.

[Derfel]

Thinking about it, contra-homosexuality folks claim that its not normal.
Wait just a bit, what is normal? Something is normal because the majority sides with it?
So cancer is becoming normal because more and more people are suffering from it because of our lifestyle?
Or perhaps latin is the language of Satan himself because there are no native speakers?
After all we're talking about a 0%-100% scale.
Extinct animals were punished by god, and the proof is that they're extinct?
In that case dead people are evil? After all their individual quantity is 0, whereas a living person's is 1, or 100%.
You can't simply find a proof, and prove the first random thing with it. Its not a skeleton key.
If some disease would make everyone homosexual except for one single person, would heterosexuality become wrong?
Whether all this is true, I cannot say, not my task to decide, but I know one thing at least. If too many people start to think about a complicated matter, the outcome is usually something incredibly dumb.
We invented timocracy together, we invented democracy together than. We invented hundreds of other things, states, whatevers. But every single time we decided whether it was good or bad, something nasty happened. Why cannot we simply consider them facts?

[Mars Man]

Thanks karlyboo san !! Next time your in this neck of the woods, bring that 6-pack...and I'll light the fire, and we'll have a great BBQ. !!



Here I'd like to quote the words of Jared Diamond, whom, if one does not know, I suggest he be looked up:

"It's tempting to restate this simple fact (that the natural tendency of our bet-hedging primordial gonad is to develop as an ovary if nothing intervenes) in emotionally loaded terms. As the endocrinologist Alfred Jost put it, 'Becoming male is a prolonged, uneasy, and risky venture; it is a kind of stuggle against inherent trends towards femaleness.'

Ok, so there is the possibilty of the 'skewed X chromosome' ① Which is not necessarily any 'gay gene,' (unless you are non-Japanese, and live in Japan....har, har, har....american joke...) AND...what can be made from the following: ' In this section we review evidence for prenatal androgens as a key biological mechanism. Androgens, including testosterone produced by the testes in fetal and neonatal life, act on the brain to produce sex differences in eural stucture and function.' ②

" In addition to variations in the fetal brain's hormone exposure, another biological basis for average, but not nearly absolute difference between the sexes in many tendencies is that there are some sex-linked genes that are quite unevenly distributed between women and men, but which are not exclusive to one sex." ③

'...the hypothalamus, being the primary factor in regulating hormone production controlling basic behaviours such as eating, drinking, and sex, has a role in that sex hormones (steroids) bathe the fetal brain. It was found by (Goldstein {Harvard Medical School}) that at least some sex differences in cognitive function do not result from cultural influences or hormanal changes associated with pubery--they are from birth. ' ④

In that environment (thus nurture) cannot and do affect the outcome of sex, there are the cases of what has been called 'Kwolu-aatmwol.' These are otherwise termed as 'pseudohermaphroditism.' There are those few cases such as are found in Pauap New Guinea or the Dominican Republic which provide further evidence to the understanding that the biological element plays a greater role than the enviromental element. ⑤ An infant had been raised as a girl due to the genital appearance and what that had implied socially. When the person reached puberty, however, the biological setting took control, and the person who had been raised as a female, somewhat suddenly threw off all things that had been taught, and became just as a male. This is the biological function, rather than the genetic function.

There are yet many other cases and point which all go to show that it's not just a genetic matter, no, but a biological matter as well. What the ancient religious belief-systems do not concede to is exactly that which undermine their authority and claim to know. Therefore even the allusion to such, in presentations which are couched in scientific terms, is an invitation to fallacy.


①　　NewScientist 6, Nov. '04, p14;
②　　　Science VOL 310, 4 Nov. '05, p 821;
③　　 Eve's Seed--Biology, the Sexes, and the Course of History, by Robert Mc Elavaine, p 81;
④ Scientific American May, '05, pp 22-24
⑤　　　The Psychology of Gender and Sexuality, by Wendy and Rex S. Rogers, p20 　

[Mars Man]

I think it comes down to this, you can believe what you want, but you have no right to force your beliefs or judgments on anyone else. It's none of anyones business if you are homosexual, bisexual, asexual, or heterosexual.

While I can appreciate your point here Goldiegirl, I would yet take the stance that what is at heart is much more than just what one 'believes' or 'thinks,' but rather, just what is the deal with all of this.

We can without doubt state that what the founders of a number of ancient religious belief-systems had not had in their setting up of the tenets of such belief-systems, was present knowledge and understandability. If it had not been so, there would never have been any 'divine' statements against homosexuality.

To that degree, while you are surely correct in one sense, in another you may be lacking. It is as much not only my natural right to inform and publically express my strong lean towards 'masculinity' ( as all my lack of hair may attest to) as it is to the benefit of social growth to do so...for the sake of education. In the very same way, and even more so...since in fact there is a minority involved...it is the right and obligation to social growth for those of other orientations to address the public with such. It is an educational process...there is no longer any need, nor should there be, to keep what is as perfectly natural as hetrosexuality, in the closet any more.

[MadamePapillon]

I think a good attitutde to take towards this sort of thing is: Live and let live.
Unless someone is doing you or your family harm or being a criminal in any way (and by criminal I mean robbing banks and stealing cars, not kissing another man) than does anybody really have a right to complain?

If you're a good, decent citizen, pay taxes and don't get into trouble than why should your personal life be the buisness of anybody else?

[Goldiegirl]

I don't believe for a minute that you are going to change the minds of certain people. That is why I say they can think what they want, just not force their beliefs on any other person. I would think the best possible case would be tolerance; acceptance would be asking too much from too many people. I think education helps, but many people have closed minds, and nothing is going to change them. You can knock, but you will not get an answer, so peaceful coexistence, tolerance is to me the only real chance for people with different opinions to get along. This isn't just for sexual issues, but religious, political and moral issues as well.

[Mars Man]

If only could really work, it would be great. I agree that one most important factor in helping that state get off the ground, is, as you, Goldiegirl, have highlighted, a good and well-balanced education system.

What I am working on is not the convincing or trying to win over, per se, but rather the correction of misinformation. A claim has been made stating a certain matter to be an actual and true external reality. 'grand picture' of sorts on what the external reality related to that claim shows us, it has been shown that the claim is misinformed. This is more than just an opinion, in this case.

In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders ② In the simplest terms, there would have had to have been a fairly well supported view in order for this to have taken place (also posts on the previous page for similar changes in charters)

The claim that neural plasticity has some play in some cases is of course evidently correct, and to that degree some cases of those with homosexual orientations of a lighter or practically non-biological result, can change to a heterosexual orientation. ③　

It is otherwise clear that the odds are against such, however, and such efforts by those who have such an orientation yet wish to loose it, do not always pay off. The average of homosexual orientation does not allow it, and the 'right' of the bell curve medium have strong pressure to apt for surgery--a man in a woman's body, a woman in a man's body...and all of it is just as real, just as much an external reality as a man in a man's body or a woman in a woman's body.

I therefore intend to continue with my presentation in order to correct misinformation, not to try to bring about any change of mind...although that is often a natural content of presentation and argumentation anyway.







① Again, by 'external reality' I mean a reality in the universe that is not only in the brain of a being. I can picture myself as having certain looks, or being of a certain character, or as reacting a certain way in a certain situation, yet if those do not fully coincide with the results of testing the external reality (say looking in the mirror, or being in that situation) then that reality was internal only. Of course the flying spaghetti monster is a reality, a true reality of the universe...but, it is only an internal reality, not an external one;
② The Psychology of Gender and Sexuality by W. and R. Rogers, 2001;
③　The Brain That Changes Itself, by N. Doidge, 2007; NewScientist, 11, Oct, '03, p19--also see Human Sexuality by S. LeVay and S. Valente, 2002

[scorpion da black]

derfel and karlyboo..when did i mention that when i argue about religion or science ; i am stating my opinion??

i clearly said no matter what i read i personally have a problem towards homosexuality...
but when i am arguing i tend to ask questions and post information i know from a believe system or scientific facts i have read.
not that i adopt that thought or not...i am just asking questions for the sake of learning and getting the whole picture...
other wise how can i judge what is right from wrong?

cheap try in making me be in the defending stance

[karlyboo]

derfel and karlyboo..when did i mention that when i argue about religion or science ; i am stating my opinion??

i clearly said no matter what i read i personally have a problem towards homosexuality...
but when i am arguing i tend to ask questions and post information i know from a believe system or scientific facts i have read.
not that i adopt that thought or not...i am just asking questions for the sake of learning and getting the whole picture...
other wise how can i judge what is right from wrong?

cheap try in making me be in the defending stance

And I clearly said that you appear to contradict yourself every other post and its confusing. I still have a hard time grasping exactly where you stand on half of this because your view seems to permute depending on what you're responding to.

Tell you what, I'll get you some wood and we'll knock a cross up for you to nail yourself to.

[scorpion da black]

how do i contradict with my self...???

quote some of my sentences and show me....

i said i am against homosexuality because of the ill feeling i have when i imagine that in my mind..it has nothing to do with science or religion...
now ...the more i learn about this, the better understanding i have to what homosexuality is...
i am not a bitter person...i can still accept some else's opinion but that depends on how much i learn about the matter...
i have a trust problem...i dig into any subject deeply before i judge upon it!

[karlyboo]

For openers (this is after 30 seconds searching since I'm at work):

i have no problem in being called a bad person about this particular matter for not accpeting homos....
because my view will not change.

contradicts:

plus guys stop refering to me as a fascist ...

which in turn contradicts:

i would better call it anti-homosexuality...or fascism against homos...
i can live with these names.

aaand for seconds:


being gay is against nature, religion, and the original way life is made...



homosexuality mars man san is a mental state of mind, not biological!
anything mental can be changed....

How can being homosexual be against the original way life is made if it's not biological?

[scorpion da black]

and where does that condradict??

i stated that i am against homosexuality and you just backed me up with my previous posts...
what you need to do is prove that i actually used religion to back my believe up ..which i didnt!!!

until...i have a proper understanding to homosexuality ...i will stick to my view

[Derfel]

how do i contradict with my self...???
Basically its like this:

You made a statement, which happened to be too, too harsh.
People replied to the statement in a similar harsh manner and questioned it.
You did a riposte, and wrote something that would back your previous or previous few posts.
Now this would work normally, but not after 7 pages.

karlyboo did a great job there compiling the frame for the theory. Its all there.

[scorpion da black]

oooooooooohhhhhh

so the change of my tone from harsh to less harsh is a contradiction in my speech??

i call that civilized way of dealing with things...i no longer wanted to hurt people with my radical view so i said my view in a kinder way...

it is like the difference between saying " i will chop you to pieces " and " I will regretfully have to defend my self by taking your life"

[karlyboo]

...I showed you that you have said things which don't make sense, you've tried to caveat the discussion to something about my proving you said something about religion (which I don't remember saying) as a counter to that, and now you've lost the plot completely with some random tangent about the tone of your views.

In conclusion I can only say thus: SdaB, seriously, what are you going on about?

[Derfel]

oooooooooohhhhhh
so the change of my tone from harsh to less harsh is a contradiction in my speech??
i call that civilized way of dealing with things...i no longer wanted to hurt people with my radical view so i said my view in a kinder way...
it is like the difference between saying " i will chop you to pieces " and " I will regretfully have to defend my self by taking your life"
Its not the tone, but what you actually say.

[Mars Man]

Well gentlemen, if I could get you to please let this present sub-section be set aside so that we may be able to try to focus a little closer as we adjust the angles of what we are looking at, in order to try to make out just what it is.

Scorpion da black san, I have printed out most of the pages, and have gone over them. I would now like to ask that you please expound on a few points in detail, with back-up source information. (since you at least have not given any clue that you have accepted any of the total sum of posts I have made relative to this subject both here and on that other thread to have been valid claims)

Let's please discuss it fully then. In the field of sexology and genetics and neurology, the sex state is divided into to two areas. One is the genetic state, and the other is the biological state.

The question is, then, do you have any valid reason to assert that what has been stated over and over again in a good number of works by major players in this field, is invalid, or incorrect? And if you deem that it is incorrect, can you please show us in detail then, just how that is so--using detail that at least equals what I have presented? (I am not going to question the language medium, I'll trust you there)

Let's please analyse these points one by one, so first, please deal only with the above. (I trust for less background noise while this is underway)

[yumeitsumo]

I say if you love someone it doesn't matter if they're the same sex or not. And that's the way it is. Cuz I'm in love with my Alison!!

[Eponine]

We don't have gay people here. I have never met any. :clueless: I believe this has to do with the fact that the Spaniards massacred everyone that wasn't a good Catholic during the Holy Inquisition. You can't be Catholic and gay. The Church prohibits it. Gayness being hereditary (so do doctors say), gay genes have been wiped out of this region. If they weren't killed, they fled to the Netherlands or the USA, which explains that both countries have so many of them now. :D

Don't worry mate, I'm going to Belgium next month and being an evil Bisexual will naturally infect as many people as I can :p

Scorpion da Black, listen to the sexy red haired man, he's being very concise about why your arguments are a pile of w***.

[Goldiegirl]

The problem is that you can't have a serious, intelligent, scientific discussion if religion is the basis for the right or wrongness of sexuality (or any topic for that matter). People who can't think outside their religion can not accept anything different. I don't find that hard to understand. I think it leads for a very limited life, but that is their choice. They don't have to use science to prove or disprove their points, that's not what religion is based on. How do you argue with that? It's like trying to prove the existence of God, faith can't be proved....

[yumeitsumo]

faith can't be proved....
THank you. THat's what I've wanted to say. THanks soooo much!

[Derfel]

They don't have to use science to prove or disprove their points, that's not what religion is based on. How do you argue with that? It's like trying to prove the existence of God, faith can't be proved....

Yes, I agree 100%, its impossible to have a proper argument like that.
Its like shooting air-water missiles on solid ground.
We don't really have a method to counter something that cannot be proven false because it cannot be proven right either.
But if we're that very sacral, since Im not saying that some kind of greater being doesn't exist (nor am I saying that he does, hell knows), I think, "God" doesn't give a damn about sexual orientation at all. If he did everyone would be the same. And if he does care about it, Im voting for re-election.

If homosexuality is wrong, we're all going to hell, if something such irrelevant is a sin, what would you call Jerry Springer, reality shows, the whole media, etc.
The list is endless.

[scorpion da black]

i am still in the process of learning mars man san..
if i happen to have a good argument then i will post it...
if i find that what you provided is the only scientific fact there is then i will take it...
it will take me two days at most..
expect more arguments from me or embracing your line of thought

[Mars Man]

if i happen to have a good argument then i will post it...

Learning is such a very, very important process; therefore I encourage you in that ! The ability to cognize at x level of coherence is not, most unfortunately, so much a thing that is learnable, so do be careful of bias reporting in your studies.

With the above statement, of course, I think it only fair to admit that up until now you have not had a good argument for your earlier statements.

if i find that what you provided is the only scientific fact there is then i will take it...

Please keep in mind that the arguments I have presented are mostly the balances of the total arguments in the field. I have come across the observations that some have yet insisted on the older 'Freudian theories' which while sound in a degree, have been shown to also lack knowledge that we have now.

There are some who seem to give no value to the more obvious understanding that plasticity also weighs in. (which is why some homosexuals do remap their brains with therapy) Therefore please try to collect a balance, the full range of papers and studies.

Now I really feel that it would probably take more than two days to do a good job. The internet may not be as good a source (unless you happen to have membership with some organizations) and I would strongly suggest a visit to a good library.

I'll wait. Again, we are simply looking at what overall understanding the facts most reasonably, logically lead to, in order to understand the state. I kind of wonder though about your seemingly distrust of the information I have given here, from the sources, scientists, professors, and doctors themselves.

[Mars Man]

I have bumped this up for a number of reasons, one of which is to keep the information 'in the neighborhood,' and another is to make my closing arguments on the most secure understanding by those in the field.

Firstly, I would like to again quote Alfred C. Kinsey, from his work Sexual Behavior in the Human Male:

Males (speaking of genetic males here) do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual. The world is not divided into sheeps and goats. Not all things are black and white. It is a fundamental of taxonomy that nature rarely deal with discrete categories. Only the human mind invents categories and tries to force facts into separate pigeon-holes. The living world is a continuum in each and every one of its aspects. The sooner we learn this conserning human sexual behavior, the sooner we whall reach a sound understanding of the realities of sex. (p 639)

Next is a very well-rounded and fully examined observation by Steven Pinker:

Autism, dyslexia, language delay, language imparment, learning disability, left-handedness, major depressions, bipolar illness, absessive-compulsive disorder, sexual orientation, and many other conditions run in families, are more concordant in identical twins, are better predicted by people's biological relatives than adoptive relatives, and are poorly predicted by any measurable feature of environment. (p46)�@

Studies have pointed out, and been replicated well enough to substantiate the understanding that there are brain anatomical differences in the sexual dimorphic nucleus (SDN)in human subjects and that of male sheep. This correlates with the finding that the SDN in women is smaller than that in heterosexual men--on average. �A

All studies lead to the conclusion that the genetic sex boils down to gamates, and from there, the combinations of chromosomes X and Y. (not always with just one of each as pointed out earlier) These determine the physical build in most cases (sometimes not appearing until after puberty) and also due to events in the arly embryonic stage, usually the biological sex state too. (the brain's disposition)

The conclusion here is clear; a physically built female (XX, XXX, XO) does not demand a fully biological female--and yet it is all the work of nature. Likewise, a physically built male (XY, XYY, XYYY) does not demand a fully biological male--and yet it is a work of nature. Thus a female body of XX having a male dispositioned brain is perfectly natural, and a male body of XY having a female dispositioned brain is perfectly natural, and any combinations in between these two extremes are also perfectly natural.

Homosexuality, therefore, is as much a part of nature as heterosexuality and asexuality are. It is just as much a part of nature as those species which clone themselves, or have two sexes, or which change sexual states. The propensity in mammals (for now) to fluxuate between the two, male and female, biologically, is the way nature is made. Homosexuality is uncommon, but, it is natural fact.




�@ This is supported also by Introduction to the Complex Genetics of Mental Disorders in BIOLOGICAL PSYCHIATRY Vol 45, by S.E. Hyman, '99, pp518-621 and The Genetic Basis Of Complex Human Behaviors in SCIENCE Vol 264, by R. Plomin & M. McGuffin et al., pp1733-1739; 　　�A The Psychology of Gender and Sexuality by W. & R. Rogers, 2001, p27; Journal Endocrinology as reported on in The Daily Yomiuri Science section, p12, March 23, 2004;

[Annubis]

I would also like to define something here:

Sex = biological, referring to the reproductive functions of a species
Gender = psychological, referring to the electro-chemical signals in the brain

One can choose their gender, but one can not choose their sex.

When discussing a female or male disposition in the brain, we must take into account that this disposition is electro-chemical, and can be changed at will, with training.

[Mars Man]

When discussing a female or male disposition in the brain, we must take into account that this disposition is electro-chemical, and can be changed at will, with training.

Well, uh...actually, Annubis chan, the data very strongly leans in the other direction in most cases. Of course taking that you have read over the entire thread carefully, I wonder what sources of information may have lead you in that direction?

In papers, journals, and literature on the subject in the field, we'll find genetical sex and brain sex...these two. Brain sex is a continuum, therefore no black and white states...a continuum.

[Annubis]

I know that Mars has a thread going about the brain! It is wonderful and I am always checking for new posts. Though, since he is an expert in the field, and I am not, I hope he can explain the chemicals and parts of the brain that lead to sexual orientation... in that particular thread, that is. Not here.

Here, I am curious about the sex hormones, and the way our body reacts to these hormones. Also, I am interested in the psychological training we undertake from birth to the present. We are conditioned to believe that we belong to a particular gender. In many cases, with such training, we can psyco-sematically produce the appropriate hormones and chemicals in the brain to engender a particular sex. The two do coincide greatly - sex and gender. But, today, a woman can choose to be a man and a man can choose to be a woman. There are pills and surgical procedures that can make this metamorphosis happen. In some cases this metamorphosis occurs naturally.

gender is based on the following factors - social, cultural and developmental
sex is based on the following factors - developmental, hormonal and genetic

Sex: (male, female)
When a child is born with ambiguous sex organs
When a child becomes an adult, the hormones grow stronger toward a particular sex
When a person reacts to the pheramonal balance of a person belonging to a particular sex

Gender: (masculine, feminine) (including stereotypes for clear exapmles)
When a person enjoys wearing pink
When a person decides to study science
When a person decides to have sex with a person of the same sex because of the physical attraction.

Both, sex and gender intersect, but I must make it clear, that gender is a choice and a *condition, where as sex is not a choice but can be a *condition (such as a metamorphosis).

*Feminine condition or masculine condition

--forgive me for not being able to give quotes and references. I've only been here 3 months. My texts and such are in Canada. I haven't been able to find a local English library and I rarely use the internet as a source unless it is from a scholarly journal, such as a JREF database, to which I do not have access. Furthermore, my memory doesn't and never has served me very well (Names, titles and dates are very very difficult for me to remember). But I try to the best of my ability to share what I know. Thank you for understanding.

[yumeitsumo]

Ya know things change. (now I date a different girl) Am I still considered bisexual even if I am interested in just one girl?

[Mavrek]

I am a male guy and like to have straight sex . I my self don't like the other forms of having sex .

[Absynthia]

I'm bisexual - I think that says it all :)
I have few GLB friends.

[Dreamweaver]

I'm bisexual... although I'm thinking of redefining myself as 'transsexual' because I don't like how the term 'bisexual' maintains a binary system. It doesn't allow for the real fluidity that exists with sexuality. I've read a number of books on bisexuality, and the whole concept of bisexuality isn't the reliance on liking ONLY men and women, but on eliminating the gender concern altogether.

[Gackt21]

The only people in the United States that don't like gays and believe it is sinful are Christian(real Christians), not the ones that just go to church for the heck of it. The ones that believe in Jesus. I pray for those that are lost from the saving grace of god that they will find there way back to him. I was going down that path before I was married because my mother had me convinced I was gay.

[Anohito]

Well, this thread just became useless!

[Hime]

actually, I did not go through all the replies above....
I myself against the homosexuality, I think its goes against the nature that we were created in from the very start.
I heard that US will allow the homosexuality marriege, and it will allow the the adoption for them........I am sure of that yet, someone correct me if its wrong
I know everyone has some specific beliefs toward the issue, but if we look at it from different side we will find the disadva. more than the adv.....-although I dont see any adv-
like if those couple decide to adopt a child to form what so called a family, can we imagine what kind of nurturing this child will have? having two mothers or two father!!
how this child will look at the society that gave him that kind of family when he compares himself with the other children....

thats my view.......:-)

[dreamer]

Well...culturally speaking it might be indeed a problem, but I don't see how it can be worse than having a bad family with both father and mother...
Personally, I'd rather have a kid wonder why he has two fathers or mothers rather than why his father beats him and his mother all the time...

Of course a gay couple might seem somehow unatural but what about humans? Surgery and even civilization also go against nature in a way. We alter our original appearences and use artificial means of producing food or goods using natural ressources. In this case, what might be wrong?

We could debate 10 years about nature versus nurture (are we born homosexual or do we become homosexual?) And so far, no real answer has been unveiled.

Also note that gay marriage is legal in some states already.

[Anohito]

The main disadvantage of being homosexual (or bisexual, transgendered, etc.) is the prevalence of anti-gay bigotry. But of course, bigots always tend to use the prevalence of bigotry to justify their bigotry. Bigotry of all sorts is far too common among human animals, and far too often societies will not be willing to identify bigotry as bigotry. For example, in the USA, highly aggressive religious supremacists are routinely allowed to spread propaganda that those who are not Theologically Correct will suffer eternal torment. In the USA, intellectual terrorism is permitted as long as the right groups are practicing it.