USA the biggest threat to world peace.

[centrajapan]

Since World War II, the United States actually dropped bombs on more than 20 countries. These include: China 1945-46, Korea 1950-53, China 1950-53, Guatemala 1954, Indonesia 1958, Cuba 1959-60, Guatemala 1960, Congo 1964, Peru 1965, Laos 1964-73, Vietnam 1961-73, Cambodia1969-70, Guatemala, 1967-69, Grenada 1983, Lebanon 1984, Libya 1986, El Salvador 1980s, Nicaragua 1980s, Panama 1989, Iraq 1991-2007, Sudan 1998, Afghanistan 1998-2007, Yugoslavia 1999, Pakistan 2005.

The United States has also assisted in over 20 different coups throughout the world, and the CIA was responsible for half a dozen assassinations of political heads of state.

Some examples.

Iran - 1953 - The CIA orchestrated the overthrow of democratically elected Mossadegh and restored the Shah to power.

Guatemala - 1954 - The CIA overthrew the democratically elected Arbenz and placed Colonel Armas in power.

Chile - 1973 - The CIA orchestrated a coup, killing President Allende who had been popularly elected. The CIA helped to establish a military regime under General Pinochet.

Iran - 1984 - American fighters shot down two Iranian passanger planes over the Persian Gulf.

Throughout the world, on any given day, a man, woman or child is likely to be displaced, ... More often than not, the United States shares the blame. Amnesty International.

http://www.tanzeem.org/

[tokapi]

Anti-Yankee rant :(:(:(

Ur next post .... eh .... America is merchant of deaths for being world's #1 arms peddler :p:emblaugh:

[centrajapan]

Criticism of the country's foreign policy is dealt with by assigning dismissive labels to the critics anti-American, communists, terrorist. The criticisms themselves are never addressed.

[RegDunlap]

Considering that Marxism and Communism were responsible for more than 100 MILLION deaths in the past century,I dont think the USA needs to apologize for very much.

[Hezam]

Since World War II, the United States actually dropped bombs on more than 20 countries. These include: China 1945-46, Korea 1950-53, China 1950-53, Guatemala 1954, Indonesia 1958, Cuba 1959-60, Guatemala 1960, Congo 1964, Peru 1965, Laos 1964-73, Vietnam 1961-73, Cambodia1969-70, Guatemala, 1967-69, Grenada 1983, Lebanon 1984, Libya 1986, El Salvador 1980s, Nicaragua 1980s, Panama 1989, Iraq 1991-2007, Sudan 1998, Afghanistan 1998-2007, Yugoslavia 1999, Pakistan 2005.

The United States has also assisted in over 20 different coups throughout the world, and the CIA was responsible for half a dozen assassinations of political heads of state.

Some examples.

Iran - 1953 - The CIA orchestrated the overthrow of democratically elected Mossadegh and restored the Shah to power.

Guatemala - 1954 - The CIA overthrew the democratically elected Arbenz and placed Colonel Armas in power.

Chile - 1973 - The CIA orchestrated a coup, killing President Allende who had been popularly elected. The CIA helped to establish a military regime under General Pinochet.

Iran - 1984 - American fighters shot down two Iranian passanger planes over the Persian Gulf.

who can say this is wrong ?

no one ^^ , so that is right ,the fact is fact ...it wonn't change .....

i agree with you centerjapan

[centrajapan]

Considering that Marxism and Communism were responsible for more than 100 MILLION deaths in the past century,I dont think the USA needs to apologize for very much.

You don't need to support Marxism to find out that US has done alot of terrible things to other people. What you say is like. Since the Nazis killed Jews it is OK for us to do the same. Therefore US does not need to apologize.

When I see a person who owes his freedom and right to speak out that was won by the deaths of thousands of Americans(WWII/Nazies) who forgets it all and backstabs the ones who fought and died for what he has now. O well, guess it's all forgotten history to a young pup?

No it is not forgotten and I think many in Europe are very thankful for the sacrifices Americans made during WW2. However this does not make US entitled to do what they have done the past 50 years.

[Hezam]

i wanna say we should not speak about the past ...

let's be friends, we have to forget the dark past

I ( Hezam ) would see the world and the people live in peace ....

best wishes

[Mars Man]

The presentation in the OP of this thread needs to be backed up better, with more direct reporting, sitations, and bibliographies. I will take the thesis to be 'USA is the biggest threat to world peace.' Also, before we go further, I'd like to settle the definitions of the terms. This may call for a little embedding, but think it would still be in line with the theme of the thread. I'll ask centrajapan to offer definitions first.

I will also point out here, ladies and gentlemen, in that the subject matter of this thread is capable of drawing out emotions, that we all keep our heads on our shoulders please, and keep this discussion calm and fit for the Serious Discussion sub-forum. Thank you. MM

[Uncle Frank]

I'm home sick with a bad cold and under the influance of too many cold medicines.

Uncle Frank

:(

[Mars Man]

I hope you feel better soon !! I always tell my students to eat fresh garlic when the colds come to visit...that chases them away real fast...along with the student's friends as well !!

I will present the definition for USA, as used in the OP title, as being the general government of the USA in the present 21st Century. How's that?

[tokapi]

I will present the definition for USA, as used in the OP title, as being the general government of the USA in the present 21st Century. How's that?



How about ... http://www.newamericancentury.org/ :-)

[Mars Man]

Nah...I'll keep it the same, because those behind that project are government related, and in my definition, I allowed room for such with the usage of the word 'general.'

Thanks for the link !! It takes all kinds, doesn't it. I hope to hear from the OP too.

[Mycernius]

Why is the OP so shocked at this? Whoever is the most powerful nation at the time will act aggressively. The UK is an excellent example. The British Empire whent around acting as if the entire planet was its own for centuries. Before that Spain, France, The Mongol empire, Romans, China, The Ancient Egyptians. As for world peace, I doubt you can lay all the worlds evils at Amercas doorstep. One of humans greatest acheivements is that we can be nasty little buggers when we want to be and we have plenty of excuses just to be nasty to each other. The US is currently King of the Castle at the moment, but someone always knocks the top dog off.

[Mars Man]

While that was very well put, Mycernius, and obviously very correct, I had hoped (and still do) to make this into a full-blown academic-like discussion. For that reason, I would reason that we do need definitions and all. Well, it's lights out time here, but I'll catch it tomorrow.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

My biggest problem with the american government and military is how they have handled the war in Iraq. Whether you agree with the reasons over why america went to war with Iraq or not, you have to admit that it has really screwed the country up and has made many mistakes with it and overal could have and should have done a much better job with the country. My sympathy lies with the people of Iraq, they have suffered so much...

The "war on terror" as Bush put it has been a fantastic **** up- America is now more likely to be targeted by terrorists right now than what it ever has been, how could Bush ever believe that he could subdue violent terrorists with violence when the reason why the terrorists are so violent is because of america's violent, arrogant and heavy handed tactics in their countries and more? The peaceful Dalai Lama has done far more for world peace than what any powerful politician like Bush has done in this day and age.


I do like america, most americans i have met are good people, but i do not agree with its government and the way it is been run.

[RegDunlap]

One very big difference with the US is that they have never tried to colonize anyone or steal their land. Sure, they wave a big stick once in a while, but thats a bout all. Sometimes mistakes do happen, c'est la vie. Most of the time, though, it involves killing people who need killing, such as Saddam and his evil brood.

If the US is such a nasty predatory place, why is it that so many millions of people around the world try so hard to get INTO it?

[tokapi]

One very big difference with the US is that they have never tried to colonize anyone or steal their land.



***************** :? **********************

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Wars :bluush:

*Hawaii
*The Philippines
*Puerto Rico

[Tokis-Phoenix]

One very big difference with the US is that they have never tried to colonize anyone or steal their land. Sure, they wave a big stick once in a while, but thats a bout all. Sometimes mistakes do happen, c'est la vie. Most of the time, though, it involves killing people who need killing, such as Saddam and his evil brood.
If the US is such a nasty predatory place, why is it that so many millions of people around the world try so hard to get INTO it?


Of course the americans have tried to colonise places, america itself used to belong to another race before we all imigrated there and kicked the natives off the land and set up our lodges and gold mines.
And what about japan? You don't forget that the americans occupied japan after the japanese lost the war and many americans went to live in japan, changing its government and the way its people lived.



Iraq's Health Minister Ali al-Shemari said in November 2006 that since the March 2003 invasion between 100,000-150,000 Iraqis have been killed. Al-Shemari said on Thursday, Nov. 9, that he based his figure on an estimate of 100 bodies per day brought to morgues and hospitals.


Do you honestly think the killing of saddam justified all these deaths in the process? If you think that most of the time america kills people that need killing, then this is hardly the case at all if you look at the massive civilian casuality statistics from the war in iraq.


Saddam may have not been that great, but at the very least at least people were leading a better quality of life and more stable and prosperous existance under his regime than under the regime the americans now have iraq under.

The americans have failed to instal democracey or any kind of order in iraq, democracey is a nice thing in concept but it simply doesn't work in countries such as iraq where there has always been such opposite religious tension between the people.
Saddam might have been quite heavy-handed in his tactics at times, however it was the only way to run the country and keep it prospering and focused on the same goals. The americans did and do not respect the people of iraq nor the many cultural and political problems they had and have, they blundered into the country demolishing buildings and killing people left, right and centre, the current government and systems of law collasped around them and with that collasped any stability the country had under Saddam. Its no wonder why so many people hate America.


And no offence, but to say "If the US is such a nasty predatory place, why is it that so many millions of people around the world try so hard to get INTO it?" is one of the most arrogant and dumbest things i've heard in ages. Immigration into the country has very little to do with people's feelings over its government and the way it is run. As much as i dislike many aspects about what america has done, if i was some starving african living in a slum i would still probably go to america if i had a chance, where this is a lot of work and employment over there in comparsion to many other countries, even if i hated the bush regime.
edit: As long as there are places worse to live in than america, there will always be some who want to immigrate to it.

[RegDunlap]

I thought the scope of the discussion was the post WW2 years. In that time, the US has not, AFAIK, colonized or conquered anyone. Every country, were you to dig far enough into its past, has nasty stuff. Mea culpa and move on.

Yes, the US occupied Japan after WW2. Then THEY LEFT. Voluntarily. They did not demand territory or tribute.

Frankly, most of the hatred of the US seems to come from the left, NOT from the world. How else could you explain Sarkozy, a great admirer of the US, getting elected? Or Harper in Canada, or Aznar in Spain, etc.

As to immigration, the obvious answer is that there is no nation on earth as accepting of strangers as the US. Why dont the poor and downtrodden try to go to Sweden or Switzerland or Germany? Because they know that they will be accepted with open arms in the US. Be welcomed into the social fabric as soon as they choose to embrace the society and mores of the country. This applies to citizens of all nations, not just "starving Africans".

Similarly, were the US to be so bad, one should see a huge flight OUT ofthe US to other, more progressive, nations. Strange how that doesnt seem to be happening, eh?

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Yes, the US occupied Japan after WW2. Then THEY LEFT. Voluntarily. They did not demand territory or tribute.



No, americans still occupy japan. If they left, then why are there all the american military bases in japan? Why is there so much land in japan owned by the americans?
Example;

"The case is likely to fuel resentment that 26,000 of the 48,000 US military personnel in Japan are hosted in Okinawa, even though the islands makes up less than 1% of the Japanese landmass."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2993492.stm



As to immigration, the obvious answer is that there is no nation on earth as accepting of strangers as the US. Why dont the poor and downtrodden try to go to Sweden or Switzerland or Germany? Because they know that they will be accepted with open arms in the US. Be welcomed into the social fabric as soon as they choose to embrace the society and mores of the country. This applies to citizens of all nations, not just "starving Africans".
Similarly, were the US to be so bad, one should see a huge flight OUT ofthe US to other, more progressive, nations. Strange how that doesnt seem to be happening, eh?



Lol, where do you base your beliefs that america is the most accepting nation of strangers on earth? And for a start i wouldn't exactly describe germany as "downtrodden".

If immigrants are all so happy and satisfied in america, then why did over a million of them boycott work and turned out at May Day protest rallies? Why are there so many americans unhappy with the levels of immigrants entering their country? You should read up on this article for more info;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4968398.stm


"Similarly, were the US to be so bad, one should see a huge flight OUT ofthe US to other, more progressive, nations. Strange how that doesnt seem to be happening, eh?"



Why would there be a fightout between america and one of the more powerful nations? These countries aren't run by morals, they're run by trade, power and profit, as long as it is profitable to be on the good side of america then there will never be such a war based on whether america is morally "bad" or not etc.

[Derfel]

You only need to compare two numbers.
The OP is the kind of person who compares Liechtenstein to the USA.
Say there were 30 murder cases in Liechtenstein last year and 10 000 in the USA.
What does this mean when asking the OP? There are 333.333 times as many criminals amongst the inhabitants of the United States... well yeah, continue toking please.
But we forgot one thing, Liechtenstein's population is probably several hundred times smaller than the USA's. What the hell is so surprising about the fact that loads of things happen in, and due to a country with such population, military power and in general significance?

[RegDunlap]

Sorry, the US doesnt occupy Japan. They have bases in Japan. A very different situation, as most people with a junior high school education would probably realize.

Asfor the May Day situation, you may find that many of those bitching and complaining are illegal aliens. Hardly representative of the generations of immigrants that enjoy life in the US. As for immigration,the vast majority of Americans welcome legal, controlled immigration of people who want to make America their home. They do NOT favour lawbreaking, illegal activity, and the like. There IS a difference.

I did not say a "fight" , I said a "FLIGHT". As in people fleeing the US and heading for other, better, more peaceful and morally sound, nations.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Asfor the May Day situation, you may find that many of those bitching and complaining are illegal aliens. Hardly representative of the generations of immigrants that enjoy life in the US. As for immigration,the vast majority of Americans welcome legal, controlled immigration of people who want to make America their home. They do NOT favour lawbreaking, illegal activity, and the like. There IS a difference.



I'm sure there are many happy immigrants in america, but why shouldn't over a million immigrants be representive of at least some of the problems with immigration in america? Or do you choose to believe that almsot every immigrant is happy in america and that america is the best thing since sliced bread?
Of course america doesn't favor lawbreaking and illegal activity, but a large percentage of those million+ immigrants that attended that protest were actually lawbiding and respectful citizens, or do you just choose to ignore their voice because there may be some illegal immigrants in the mix?




I did not say a "fight" , I said a "FLIGHT". As in people fleeing the US and heading for other, better, more peaceful and morally sound, nations.


Why would people want to flee the US? Just because its politically done some bad things, doesn't mean that its otherwise a good place to live in certain respects. And you forget my country- in England we have had a huge influx of immigrants since that war your country declared in Iraq.....


If america killed 5million people in iraq would you pack up your bags and immigrate to another country? Probably not, but then why do you argue the point that if america's done bad things politcally then people would move out of the country?


And anyway, i'm sure we will start to see many americans moving over to places like England, what with all your increasingly weak dollar and housing mortgage problems and all......


I'm not saying america is a bad country, i never have, but on the other hand i am not naive enough to believe its the best thing sliced bread and better than any other place on earth etc. America has to take responsability for all the sh*t and suffering its caused in Iraq and answer to its people and be honest with them over serious problems like why its dollar its becomming record-breakingly weak, or why they're one of the hottest targets for terrorists in the western world at the moment etc...

[Goldiegirl]

More people try to get into the USA illegally than any other country in the world. If my country is that bad why do so many people want in, and to top it off WE can all LEAVE if we want to. There isn't a giant exodus out of the USA. There is a giant exodus INTO the country. Wow, we must be so warlike that people are forced to come here. Isn't it amazing that the country you say is the threat to peace allows foreigners off all kinds into it's borders. Isn't great that you can bring the Koran, a Bible, into my country and it's not illegal. Isn't in great that a British teacher is in jail for having her students name a teddy bear Mohmmed? Not every American believes in war, but here we have the RIGHT to VOTE, both men and women and all faiths, we can end our wars through the power of the people. It may take time, but at least it's a civilized and orderly process, with out the fear of being car bombed, or killed by a suicide bomber. We also don't support terrorism, we actually face our enemies, not attack them with bombs strapped to our youth or hidden in cars and trucks.

[Derfel]

There are always people coming and going. Its not like the US is a huuuge aquarium with unbreakable walls.

[Hezam]

Goldiegirl : you must understand that we do'nt mean the american people

we mean the government only, as you know the government had killed many people around the world

it's the worse in the history .......

you must say the truth...........

best wishes ..

[Derfel]

I'll put it simple. There are overlords, allies, neutral countries, resistances, and opposition. History in itself isn't evil, there is no such thing in history. You can slice out an aspect of history and brand it x y evil or whatever and still it will be pointless because its already behind, unchangeable, carved into stone. And let me add: America being labeled the worse thing in history is a joke in itself. If you run through a more or less objective history book you'll understand that compared to many reigns and regimes America is the pigeon of peace and harmony. Even today. Not that America isn't guilty in anything, but everything what it does is justified if you shake off your views of wrong, right, black white and look at the matter with the eyes of the cold historian or politician. Please see through these eyes that worse things have happened in the past, and worse things will happen in the future. Please be a bit more humble towards time, and don't try to draw the status quo, the momentary present as the absolute present, and America as the one and only problem humanity is facing right now. America has nothing to confess, he has his people to look after. On the other hand I can't understand American patriotism either, its just a country amongst the many.

[Goldiegirl]

Yes it's the government, but sadly we innocent civilians are targeted by cowardly terrorists.

[Derfel]

Yes it's the government, but sadly we innocent civilians are targeted by cowardly terrorists.
You are saying that, but isn't the government doing all that stuff for the well being of the people? Sure they benefit from it too, but so do the people.

[Hezam]

Yes it's the government, but sadly we innocent civilians are targeted by cowardly terrorists

that's right ...i agree with you 100%

I as Muslim, I don't agree with the terrorists anyway ....we must stop them, if we cann't

stop them we have the right to kill them because if we did not stop them they will kill

the innocents, I agree with anyone like you Goldiegirl

Derfel : sorry I mean this era not the old era .......

[Derfel]

Terrorists? Sisyphus comes to my mind, and terrorists are boulder. Kill as many as you like you will never succeed. New ones will appear.

[Dutch Baka]

I think the biggest threat is the miscommunication, and misunderstandings between the western world and the eastern world that makes this world a scary place so now and again.

Also as Mycernius said in his post. The king of the castle will act aggressively. Same happened to my country Holland in the past.

[Sarapva]

i wanna say we should not speak about the past ...
let's be friends, we have to forget the dark past
I ( Hezam ) would see the world and the people live in peace ....
best wishes

Thank you - this is the attitude we'll all need to have for world peace. There are plenty of Americans who don't agree with what their government is doing. I think we're like any other country that way. Let's all try to think of each other as one people living on one earth. "Visualize World Peace"!

[tokapi]

I thought the scope of the discussion was the post WW2 years. In that time, the US has not, AFAIK, colonized or conquered anyone.



U wrote .... US have never tried to colonize or steal :souka:

Really,how about Okinawa :wave:

[Mars Man]

OK...I regret that I had to go to sleep last night, and didn't have any time to nudge the thread in the right direction. You see folks, this is what happens when we don't settle on definitions...a lot of beating around the bush in a rather sloppy and haphazard fashion.

Again, I will suggest that we define the term USA as being the general government of the United States in the 21th century. The reason this definition is most fitting is because the remaining of the title gives us the general present tense in the sense of 'World Peace as it rests at the moment or for the near future.'

What had happened up to the year 1999 end, will have no weight at all since what has happened, be it known or not, and to whatever degee of substantial knowledge that may be, cannot be changed. We have to look at the present moment...otherwise we have to alter the title of the thread, as well as the basic introduction.

I hope all will agree to this definition. If so, we then have to define a few more words, or at least put delimiters on them. Let's have a good, serious discussion, rather than just a bickering sandbox !

[centrajapan]

What had happened up to the year 1999 end, will have no weight at all since what has happened, be it known or not, and to whatever degee of substantial knowledge that may be, cannot be changed. We have to look at the present moment...otherwise we have to alter the title of the thread, as well as the basic introduction.

To be able to work towards world peace if that is a goal in itself then we can only learn from past mistakes therefore I think it is important that people are aware of history.

When I say US I do refer to the US government and not the average American Joe. However one should also be aware of the fact that it is the American people who elect their people to the White House.

I will never apologize for the United States of America -I don't care what the facts are -President George Bush 1988 . Bush was demonstrating his patriotism by excusing an act of cold-blooded mass-murder by the U.S.Navy. On July 3, 1988 the U.S. Navy warship Vincennes shot down an Iranian commercial airliner. All 290 civilian people in the aircraft were killed.

[Mycernius]

American Joe. However one should also be aware of the fact that it is the American people who elect their people to the White House.

The hazards of a democracy, ANY democracy.

[Hezam]

Terrorists? Sisyphus comes to my mind, and terrorists are boulder. Kill as many as you like you will never succeed. New ones will appear.

the Terrorists appeared when america and israel fighted and began to kill the people

like palestine and afghanistan and iraq ..

so we must stop america and israel then the Terrorists will disappear ....

[RegDunlap]

the Terrorists appeared when america and israel fighted and began to kill the people
like palestine and afghanistan and iraq ..
so we must stop america and israel then the Terrorists will disappear ....
They appeared long before that, my friend. Look up the history of the Muslim Brotherhood, or the Salafist/ Wahabbi movement to see what I mean.

A world without the USA in it would be an anarchistic toilet. Europe has proven itself time and again to lack the willpower or strength to oppose extremism. No other country in the world has the American ability to project power, nor does any other country seem willing to step up to the plate and shoulder the mantle.

When disasters like the tsunami of a few years ago strike, who does everyone turn to for help. The EU? ASEAN?the UN? Sorry, strike three. Everyone's favourite whipping boy suddenly becomes popular again.

[Hezam]

They appeared long before that, my friend. Look up the history of the Muslim Brotherhood, or the Salafist/ Wahabbi movement to see what I mean.

i think you are one of America clients..

and you said (A world without the USA in it would be an anarchistic toilet) !!

i am sure if anyone read it he will think that you are israelian Jews

you must use a seemly words not like these dingy words ...

[RegDunlap]

i think you are one of America clients..
and you said (A world without the USA in it would be an anarchistic toilet) !!
i am sure if anyone read it he will think that you are israelian Jews
you must use a seemly words not like these dingy words ...
I'm not Israeli.
Not Jewish.
Not American.

Three strikes, you're out. Thanks for playing.

[Goldiegirl]

I think you can tell what countries lend themselves to peace when you look inside, and see how they are with their own people. I live in a small community with Jews, Baptists, Lutheran, Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, Pentecostal, Atheists, and no one bombs the others houses, markets, or churches. We live in peace. We don't live in conflict every day. There has always been conflict in the Middle East, long before there was United States of America.

[Mars Man]

Thank you Goldiegirl chan ! You have basically added support to my proposition. It is not a matter of contries, nor even of in-.VS.out groups...it is vey much a matter of being human; period.

Before we go on, though folks, I really, really hope to push for a better response in thinking this over. What, people, do we mean by the word, 'peace?' Let's define that please.

[centrajapan]

Goldie Girl. There has not always been conflicts in the Middle East but still does that defend the crimes which Israel is committing on a daily basis?

[Derfel]

Centrajapan my dearest friend in the most ironic meaning. You are the one who is ignorant, for you do not notice that Goldiegirl was absolutely polite, and you are shallow as well, i don't wish to leave out ignorant either, i don't know about your sense of dignity, but for certain you lack sense in the most mundane meaning.
Now listen, what takes place in Israel is not epic cleansing, its more like a civil warish thing. America does not invade peaceful, advanced countries, it doesn't invade anyone without a reason, be it however small.
As for indians and slaves you better STFU for the sea wolves pillaged all the shores of Europe without exception. Another thing: America is the kinder type of occupant. Most occupations in history were way, way more cruel. And why wouldn't America give Israel arms? Isn't Israel a potential ally? I don't see a problem there.
Your question "DO you know the meaning of peace Goldie Girl?" is especially pissing me off, don't act so very socially sensitive and righteous please. No fake anger and rage if possible. You probably complain more than those people who are going through all that stuff.
You probably make a savage grimace now when hearing about Israel, but listen mate, the end doesn't always justify the means, and the means are a bit wrong atm, but Israel, the Jewish people deserve a place to call their own after those several hundreds of years. And as it always happens in history, the ones with power use it.

[RegDunlap]

Americans killed all the Indians and brought over slaves from Africa these days they go around carpet bombing others.Killed all the indians? THe 2 million or so who make up the current tribalgroups may disagree with you.

As to slavery, that was done by the Europeans. With substantial help from other Africans,who saw good money to be made in selling their neighbours and war prisoners for a profit. Americans were merely the end buyer in most cases.
The problem is that Americans like to believe they are good when the majority of the world don't Where is your evidence to support this statement, other than your own feelings?

[centrajapan]

As for indians and slaves you better STFU

Why? This is a fact. To be able to not repeat the same mistakes one should not forget the past. The tereatment of Indians and salves was an outright crime against humanity. No?

Most occupations in history were way, way more cruel. And why wouldn't America give Israel arms? Isn't Israel a potential ally? I don't see a problem there.
Your question "DO

Most countries did not kill most of the native people and bring over slaves so I am not sure how much crueler than that you can get. Most occupants did not ethnic cleanse land cage the homeless in refugee camps. The creation of Israel and USA was an act of rape. This we should agree upon. US is giving arms to Israel so that they can keep on oppressing people. If you agree with racial discrimination than no, what US is doing is not wrong. If you don't agree with racial discrimination then what US is doing is wrong. So my dear friend Derfel. Do you support ethnic cleansing, racial discrimination? If yes, who is your favorite ethnic cleanser?

Jews can stay in Israel as long as they don't oppress non Jews.

[RegDunlap]

The creation of Israel was an act of the United Nations, not of rape. Nice try though.

Most refugee camps are not in Israel, AFAIK. they are in, ironically, other Arab or Muslim countries.

[Goldiegirl]

May I also add, that my husband is Japanese, NOT a citizen of the USA and he lives here without any discrimination. There are black families in my neighborhood, a Puerto Rican family across the street, a Hindu family from India, down the block, funny but they aren't in any jeopardy here. Yep there is crime in the USA but it's not crime based on religion, the boundaries of our country, or for the most part race. The crimes that centrajapan brings up are in the past. My family wasn't even in the USA then. So am I criminal for slavery or the the killing of the American Indians, that just doesn't make sense to the present day. No market place bombings, no suicide killers, funny but I don't feel like I live in a war zone. My husband (Buddhist) can walk our dogs through the neighborhood and talk to all the people, and no one wants to kill him because he's not American or christian, or muslim or anything else. He can just be, and that is ok here. To each is own. In many countries your whole life is dependent on what you are, and if you aren't in the ruling majority you are nothing. That's why there isn't peace or at least, tolerance.

[Mars Man]

Again...and how many times will I have to bring this case in point up before the body of debate...whatever may, or not may not be happening in the Middle East, is of no great concern for the argument that the USA is the largest threat to peace in our world today. This should be clear enough. It's a human thing.

[Derfel]

Why? This is a fact. To be able to not repeat the same mistakes one should not forget the past. The tereatment of Indians and salves was an outright crime against humanity. No?
Most countries did not kill most of the native people and bring over slaves so I am not sure how much crueler than that you can get. US is giving arms to Israel so that they can keep on oppressing people. If you agree with racial discrimination than no, what US is doing is not wrong. If you don't agree with racial discrimination then what US is doing is wrong. So my dear friend Derfel. Do you support ethnic cleansing, racial discrimination? If yes, who is your favorite ethnic cleanser?
Jews can stay in Israel as long as they don't oppress non Jews.

No lets sum up your BS:

When did all that take place? That happened quite a time ago, you're starting ti brand the American nation as criminals now (I sense racism).
You BS day and night about the indians, but you forget about the cruelty of your own nation. “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” Now you have no right to throw stones left and right. Or perhaps you forgot about the murdered clericals and defiled monasteries? Thats your 2 in 1 pack, ethnic and religious cleansing.

Who is my favorite ethnic cleanser? I'll tell you, he's called INTERNATIONALISM. He will one day cleanse all nations without actually injuring someone.

[centrajapan]

Why are you stating facts as BS? Please look up the word ethnic cleansing because you seem not to be able to understand the meaning of the word.

You on one hand say why should not US support Israel because Israel is an ally of US but yet to fail to see that Israel is a racist country which practice severe discrimination. If most Americans support Israel does that mean that they are racist? Do you agree that US is fueling alot of ARab hatred by supporting Israel apartheid.

The reason why I mentioned the Indians and the slaves was because you said Americans are not cruel occupiers so I came with historic facts. Then you start to label me as a racist.

US has also in the past bombed no less than 20 countries. Over thrown democracies installed ruthless dictators. It makes you wonder. Do the average American support these atrocities? If not then why do they keep electing these kind of people?

US on 1998 bombed a pharmacy plant in Sudan and have yet given an apology.

In 1986 the International Court of Justice (The Hague) ruled that
the US was in violation of international law for "unlawful use of force" in
Nicaragua, through its actions and those of its Contra proxy army. The
US refused to recognize the Court's jurisdiction. A UN resolution calling
for compliance with the Court's decision was approved 94-2 (US and Israel
voting no).

Goldie Girl talking about how "we" don't bomb countries. I found her statement to be ironic beyond belief.

[Derfel]

I did not say America is not cruel at all, I simply pointed out that America isn't the most cruel occupant, which is undeniable.
Please, bark when you have lost your country like Jewish people did. Was that not cruel? Did they deserve it? Do they have no right to their native land? Of course they do. When both sides are right at the same time, things get decided by the team game called War. Its that simply, and since Jewish forces are way more powerful, they're the winners of the game.
However cruel it may sound, the bombing of a pharmacy is nothing but a minor detail on a global scale.
Lol btw good joke, teaching someone of Armenian descent what ethnic cleansing is, funny boy.

[Goldiegirl]

We don't use suicide bombs strapped to our young people. We don't use car bombs. We don't bomb civilian airliners or use them as the bombs. I don't even own a bomb! If you think you can attack a country and not be attacked back, well then you surely have a problem. The past is not the present. I think the big difference is that here in the USA our law is not based on religion. We have a separation of church and state. Our laws aren't religious laws, that's why we can live more harmoniously in our country. The United States is not perfect, but at least we can strive for "our" each individual idea of perfection and not have to worry about retribution for being or not being the right religion, race, creed. And yes there are times when people are discriminated against, but the REAL difference is that it is NOT LEGAL or sanctioned. People here live in peace, or at least tolerance.

[Derfel]

Yes yes, i think most people understand that, but for some dumb reason its a trend lately to be all "anti-American" with no reason lol :D You see all these "Im-so-original!" folks complaining that America is this, America done that, America whatever. Lots of people wouldn't even help someone who collapsed due to a seizure on the streets or something, but they complain how America is bombing xy locations and killing people. Look inside you folks and remember once more “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”.

[Hezam]

the problem is the Masonry in the government ...not the people ....

the Jewish in the government like the Virus in the budy ...

[scorpion da black]

so the fight moved from one thread to another???

carlos sanata bro please get hold of your self and dont get mad....this is for your own dignity, trash talk is not from our arab morals.

Derfel my freind you are a great person, i would like to appologize for all this fight on our behalf...may i ask you to calm down too.

i didnt participate on that thread because people there started to loose their civil face and moral way of conversation...

keep this acadimic and keep your mutual respect ...

different point of views is welcomed as long as it is polite.

as for what i think about this thread...
the US has made some of the greatest wars after profit and after destruction of comunism

and each war too many immoral activities happened...
in vietnam destruction of many villages, raping women, killing civilians.
in iraq, the americans were obviously after oil.
in bosnia, they werent there to stop the ratial slaughter, they were there to destroy the comunist yougoslavian goverment.
in koria
horishima, nagazaki.
.
.
.
.
.
and many many more...

YET, what has happened doesnt represent the will of all the american people...
a lot of americans out there march against wars, and yell for peace.
we as people must learn to like each other...leave the politicians kill each other..

[Sarapva]

Lots of people wouldn't even help someone who collapsed due to a seizure on the streets or something, but they complain how America is bombing xy locations and killing people. Look inside you folks and remember once more “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”.

This is a good point - we need to have compassion for anyone who needs help.

Scorpion and Carlos also have good points - it's best not to resort to insults.

The "Golden Rule" is a good way to live: "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you."

[maushan3]

US has also in the past bombed no less than 20 countries. Over thrown democracies installed ruthless dictators. It makes you wonder. Do the average American support these atrocities? If not then why do they keep electing these kind of people?

Goldie Girl talking about how "we" don't bomb countries. I found her statement to be ironic beyond belief.

It's people on the government doing this things. Have you ever watched the movie 'Fahrenheit 9/11'? if you haven't, do it.

For example, the now Pres. Bush cheat on the 200 elections, having his brother as an accomplice in Florida. Another example, Popular vote on him has severally declined over the years. He brainwashed many Americans by telling us (although, me, not an American) that all this war thing was done to protect the country from our terrorists, when in fact this was done not only for the oil, which can be obvious, but for the reconstruction. By destroing entire villages, the government is forced to reconstruct them. By doing this, he calls up his best buddies who have construction cos. and they all profit from it. Nice Business, huh?

Of course there will be a few percentage of Americans that think like this, extremists. But isn't that the same in ANY country and religion, etc.? Americans don't have the fault in this, stop blaming them, this is just a .00000001% on the population which happens to be the government and does it for profitable reasons.

Mauricio

[Mars Man]

What, people, do we mean by the word, 'peace?' Let's define that please.

Now this was back on page two...and no one wished to consider nor respond to the suggestion, so I will take the liberty to define what the word 'peace' means in the title and topic of this thread.

On this thread, by 'peace' we mean that state wherein two or more animals exist and persist in the activity of a livelihood in such manner as to not willfully inflict physical harm on another from which harm such activity cannot be maintained.

So now we have these two terms defined--USA and peace. Also, we have the time frame set--the on-going present as of January, 2000.

With that we can really start discussing this hypothesis that The USA is the biggest threat to peace. I will take the position that the premise is false in its terms, namely, that the superlative can be shown to be untrue, and therefore the premise is faulty. The conclusion is negative--the USA is not the biggest threat to peace.

[RegDunlap]

It's people on the government doing this things. Have you ever watched the movie 'Fahrenheit 9/11'? if you haven't, do it. I've seen it. It's interesting, but total fiction. Michael Moore is a great film maker, but he does not really care about the truth.

For example, the now Pres. Bush cheat on the 200 elections, having his brother as an accomplice in Florida. Another example, Popular vote on him has severally declined over the years. MauricioIf Bush lost in 2000, why did Gore concede? As for the popular vote for Bush, it was;

2000 Election: 50.4 million

2004 Election: 62 million


It INCREASED by 12 million votes, or more than 20%.

Nice try, though. Thanks for playing.

[Hezam]

the USA is not the biggest threat to peace but it is Israel and Zionism ...

[Mikawa Ossan]

I thought that for something to be threatened, it had to exist first.

I certainly don't find any reason to believe that world peace exists from reading the newspaper.

I would rather characterize the question as to what is the biggest impediment to world peace, and I don't think that the USA fits that bill. The USA could vanish off the face of the Earth today, but we would be no closer to realizing world peace.

EDIT: Carlos, would you mind explaining why you think so?

[Hezam]

EDIT: Carlos, would you mind explaining why you think so?

because they drive the USA government to fight us and other countries like packistan

and india ....i have more information, i will talk about that later....

[centrajapan]

It is hard to imagine a country which have committed more atrocities and caused more human harms to others than what US has done in the past 60 years. I will leave out Latin America, South East Asia, Middle East in the 50s, 80s where millions of people have died due to American policy.

The latest America's contribution to their long list of war crimes and disturbing the world peace is ofcource Iraq. A country which have been torn apart completely by the imperialist American war machine. The reasons for going to war was fabricated. It was a lie. The Nazis fabricated a lie to attack Poland. The Americans fabricated a lie to enter Vietnam. USA fabricated a lie to invade Iraq. At the time of the invasion the majority of Americans both Democrats and Republicans supported the invasion. The war being dubbed a "war on terror" Let us for a moment pretend that Iraq had anything to September 11th. although we know for sure that it didn't and it is clear that the US government used 9-11 as a pretext to invade Iraq.

This begs the question. Why did if we are to believe that it was bin Laden who was behind the attacks commit atrocities which would remind you very much of how Americans have been behaving throughout the world the past 60 years? After all US is the only country in the world to be sentenced by the International Court for terrorism. Unlawful use of violence. US also have on purpose shot down commercial airliners killing every civilian on board on purpose.

To answer those questions one should perhaps read what bin Laden said right after the attacks on September 11.

Millions of innocent children are being killed as I speak. They are being killed in Iraq without committing any
sins, and we don't hear condemnation or a fatwa (religious decree) from the rulers. In these days, Israeli
tanks infest Palestine — in Jenin, Ramallah, Rafah, Beit Jalla, and other places in the land of Islam, and we
don't hear anyone raising his voice or moving a limb.

When the sword comes down (on America), after 80 years, hypocrisy rears its ugly head. They deplore and
they lament for those killers, who have abused the blood, honor and sanctuaries of Muslims. The least that can
be said about those people is that they are debauched. They have followed injustice. They supported the
butcher over the victim, the oppressor over the innocent child. May God show them His wrath and give them
what they deserve.

To America, I say only a few words to it and its people. I swear by God, who has elevated the skies without
pillars, neither America nor the people who live in it will dream of security before we live it in Palestine, and
not before all the infidel armies leave the land of Muhammad, peace be upon him.

http://www.september11news.com/OsamaSpeeches.htm

I have just taken bits from his speech here. Bin Laden mentions 2 countries. Iraq and Palestine.

In Iraq according to Reuters it is estimated that half a million children died to the sanctions imposed by US.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/072100-03.htm

In Palestine since 2000 atleast 4500 have died. Many of them being children. The Palestinians are being killed by US made weapons and US funded money. In Palestine as in the Occupied Territories it is against international law for Israel to be making new settlements and to be killing Palestinians in West Bank, Jenin, Ramallah or Gaza.

According to the Geneva Conventions.

The Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the West Bank, to the Gaza Strip, and to the entire City of Jerusalem, in order to protect the Palestinians living there. The Palestinian People living in this Palestinian Land are “protected persons” within the meaning of the Fourth Geneva Convention. All of their rights are sacred under international law.

It is safe to say that due to US policy in the Middle East this has caused tremendous suffering to people in the region. To be more precise to the people in Palestine and Iraq. US policy is a direct reason for instability in the region. Not only a threat to stability and peace. US likes to criticise others about human right violations when US keeps ignoring international humanitarian law together, support war crimes aswell as racial discrimination and oppression aswell as being the architect behind cutting the life line so that hundreds of thousands of children die of famine.

This again fuels hatred and what we now have is a cycle of violence which is making the world as a whole more unsafe.

[RegDunlap]

Centra, you better slow down there before you have a conniption my friend.

1/ If you want to talk about blood on hands, look no further than Soviet Russia or Red China. They have far more than the US.

2/ Please tell me where "millions of children" are being killed "as we speak". The sanctions in Iraq were caused by their own leader, Hussein,and his demonic dreams of conquest.Not by the US.

3/ The deaths in Palestine, while tragic, are merely Darwin in action. IfPalestinians are stupid enough to attack Israeli tanks with rocks, they have nobody to blame but themselvesfor what happens.

[Hezam]

I agree with centerjapan

[Mars Man]

It is rather clear, if one really sits down and thinks things over very carefully and in an involved yet most objective frame of mind, that centerjapan's claim is false.

It is false in that it obviously has been arrived at in a preclusive manner of bias. The reason for this is that while events in history related to a single certain government are focused on, allowance for the entirety of human history's being weighed against the claim in order to balance out events in proper proportion is not undertaken.

It is false in that it insinuates a future state which is different from the present world state based on an pressumption. This is true in that while the premise presents the present world state as being one consisting of 'peace'--as I have defined--it also hypothasizes that such state will be destroyed by a single certain human government.

It is quite clear, that animal groups, over the whole range of the history of life on earth, have never, and do not live in peace. It is quite clear that the improbablity of such a state as peace ever existing for any extended period over the entire globe, is the stuff of dreams--although we do well to keep that dream alive with every bit of humanism we can muster up from the bottom of our hears.

No, the USA is not the biggest threat to world peace--that general government is but a player among many in the socio-cultural in/out group push and shove.

No, the USA is not the biggest threat to world peace--because there has never been world peace, and it is hardly likely there ever will be.

No, the USA is not the biggest threat to world peace--in that the superlative cannot adequately be ascertained by valid and fair measurement.

[Derfel]

No, the USA is not the biggest threat to world peace--because there has never been world peace, and it is hardly likely there ever will be.

Yeah, but people can't seem to understand this, and they always look for someone to blame for us, every single one of us being human, and having instincts.

[centrajapan]

1/ If you want to talk about blood on hands, look no further than Soviet Russia or Red China. They have far more than the US.
2/ Please tell me where "millions of children" are being killed "as we speak". The sanctions in Iraq were caused by their own leader, Hussein,and his demonic dreams of conquest.Not by the US.
3/ The deaths in Palestine, while tragic, are merely Darwin in action. IfPalestinians are stupid enough to attack Israeli tanks with rocks, they have nobody to blame but themselvesfor what happens.
¨
First off. I thank you for your answer. But I disagree with your stance and I will now explain why I think you are wrong.

1. Could you please explain what you mean by "more blood on their hands?" I have talked about since WW2 where as our moderator MarsMan wanted to keep this debate since the year 2000.

If we go from WW2. US has invaded, bombed, waged wars on more countries and cultures than China or USSR. From South America in the south west to North East Asia in the north east hence it has affected more people as a whole than the crimes which USSR or China has commited meaning more people in various countries have been affected by US crimes.

Since the year 2000. US is at war against "terror". Especially 2 countries have been affected by this. Afghanistan and Iraq but also Pakistan and especially Palestine.

2. The sanctions of Iraq might have been caused by Saddam but why should the children of Iraq pay for the crimes committed by Saddam? Before 1990 and the imposition of sanctions, Iraq had one of the highest standards of living in the Middle East. Why should an entire nation suffer collateral damage? We have international laws which condemns this. The sanctions impose by US violated millions of human rights. Why should a 5 year old die simply because US doesn't like Saddam? Much more 5 year olds have died due to USA and not Saddam.

Before you answer this question. Why was US supporting Saddam?

3. Oh the Darwin. Does that mean that Jews deserved to die in WW2? Does that means that since the Jews deserved to die in WW" they have a right to kill the Palestinians. I am glad I don't live in a society like that because things could easily get out of hand such as that old woman deserved to die because she is old and I needed some spare change to buy myself a beer.

[Hezam]

yes . I agree with centerjapan because his proofs are true and strong than any ...

[Derfel]

3. Oh the Darwin. Does that mean that Jews deserved to die in WW2? Does that means that since the Jews deserved to die in WW" they have a right to kill the Palestinians. I am glad I don't live in a society like that because things could easily get out of hand such as that old woman deserved to die because she is old and I needed some spare change to buy myself a beer.

The two situations are completely different, the genocide was an unnatural, inhuman act, whereas what Israel is doing can be described as peacekeeping at best and occupation at worst. They do not wish to rid the world of Palestinians, they don't kill without a reason just because they feel like owning up someone.

Towards Carlos Santana:

Would you please stop stating after his every comment how much you agree with Centrajapan?
Its obvious to everyone that as long as he attacks the US and Israel you will keep agreeing with him, but in truth you would be most happy if he (don't get me wrong, he doesn't obviously, im just saying "if", i don't accuse Centrajapan of being anti-Jewish) or anyone came up with antisemitist propaganda rubbish. You're so obvious, without even looking at it, I see antisemitism all over your face.

[Hezam]

The two situations are completely different, the genocide was an unnatural, inhuman act, whereas what Israel is doing can be described as peacekeeping at best and occupation at worst. They do not wish to rid the world of Palestinians, they don't kill without a reason just because they feel like owning up someone

so funny !! you said "as peacekeeping" !!! they kill ((the people)) as peacekeeping !!!

using F16 and Tanks called peacekeeping !!

Would you please stop stating after his every comment how much you agree with Centrajapan?
Its obvious to everyone that as long as he attacks the US and Israel you will keep agreeing with him, but in truth you would be most happy if he (don't get me wrong, he doesn't obviously, im just saying "if", i don't accuse Centrajapan of being anti-Jewish) or anyone came up with antisemitist propaganda rubbish. You're so obvious, without even looking at it, I see antisemitism all over your face.

you don't know what you talking about ....we ( Arab ) are semites...

read well then reply

[scorpion da black]

derfel my friend, we arabs are semitic as well...
there is no anti semitism in our hearts.

arabs lived side by side with jews all over arabia...
we dont hate jews...we hate those who kill us, our women and children, and who turn our lands to ashes and dust...whether it is jew, christian, pagan, aethist...
it just happened to be jews who are killing us at the mean time...
i prefer to call them zionists, because i doubt that an abrahamic religion could actually preach that much hate...it is the zionist philosophy that we arabs are against...

[Hezam]

now did you understood my friend Derfel ?

[centrajapan]

There you said it. It is not Jews but Zionism. Some Jews are against Zionism. America is a pro Zionist country and they like to throw the played out anti Semite argument which is getting old.

USA likes to label Iran anti Semites.

The Webster's Dictionary defines "anti-Semite" as "One who discriminates against or is hostile to or prejudiced against Jews." Notice that the state of Israel is not mentioned.

Shimon Peres, has compared an Iranian nuclear bomb to a "flying concentration camp."

So why hasn't Iran at least started its holocaust by killing or throwing into concentration camps its own Jews, an estimated 30,000 in number? These are Iranian Jews who have representation in Parliament and who have been free for many years to emigrate to Israel but have chosen not to do so.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/sasha_abramsky/2007/05/last_month_the_great_comment.html

[Derfel]

Although it doesn't mean a thing, but I don't know of an English word, or a word used in English that refers to "Jew Hate", thats why I went ahead and used the word. So basically, I will have to stick to this word, or if you prefer I can use "anti-Jewish", its up to you. Well, I couldn't find a word for the opposite of zionism, so thats the main reason I used it.

Santana, please red through that sentence thoroughly, I wrote peacekeeping at best and occupation at worst, so it matches the opinion of both pro-Israel and contra-Israel sides.

[Mars Man]

¨
I have talked about since WW2 where as our moderator MarsMan wanted to keep this debate since the year 2000.

Yes, that is correct. The reason being, as I have explained and which you seemingly have brushed aside, as so many others have both on this thread the one regarding trying to find a middle road in the Middle East, that by arguing about what has happened in 50 years ago, is not a matter than can easily have a clear-cut consensus on...especially they way it is being argued here on this thread.

What then transpires is a sandbox squabble which is circular, only ends up drawing out emotional replies, and amounts to little increment in education. Maybe one good, basic reason why the world is relatively no closer to world peace today, in the twenty-first century, is due the scaricity of such educational processes.

Now, it appears that there has been a major drive in energy and words towards the state of affairs in the Middle East. That leads me to wonder about your agenda, centrajapan san. That puts your objective in this thread in a suspecious light. You obviously did not come here with any well-thought out argument based on historical writings and books, and the links which you have provided while (except for the thoughts of Bin Laden which cannot be verified--mean what he claims) dealing with certain matters of the ill effects of some situation, are not about known to be true historical matters.

I suggest, centrajapan, that you now expand your argument...even though the premise is false, and so the argument is false...to the world scene, and give an outline in good format to support your line of reasoning. Let's move out of the sandbox arena, now.

[centrajapan]

I disagree very much with your stance Mars-Man. If many people have put great efforts in stabalising the region then I have to say USA is not one of them. USA is making sure that Israel on this very day as I am typing this is ignoring international law and making sure that there woun't be world peace or stability in the region. How on earth can US keep on supporting a nation which practice severe racial discrimination and oppression?

How on earth can you invade a country on fabricated lies and be a direct reason for thousands of children dying and say US is not a threat to peace?

I am calling a spade a spade. Having read books, read news papers watched TV aswell as talking with various people from different countries and from my travel through various places in the world including the Middle East this is my personal conclusion which I have come up with. And I am not alone in this conclusion. In an EU poll more EU citizens voted Israel as the country whcih was the biggest threat to world peace than any other country. Having read bin Laden's script. Where it says in very clear words in black and white. I do believe Israel is a threat to world peace. I am not supporting bin Laden. But I understand that the US support of Israel fuels hatred. Which again makes my life more insecure in northern Europe.

I have no reasosn to believe that his speech to be fabricated. You can read it on various news sites.

Due to Middle East being an insecure region this again is making the entire world more insecure. I beleieve peace can be achieved but I also believe the biggest obstacle to peace is USA and Israel.

Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. Is it not about time that US wakes up and smell the coffee and start to take their share of responsibility?

Famous Americans like Carter is comparing Israel with South Africa. Nelson Mandela is comparing Israel with South Africa, Desmon Tutu another anti apartheid activist is comparing Israel to South Africa. 3 Nobel Peace Prize Winners is comparing Israel to former South AFrica.

Palestine has already agreed to make a state of the remainding 20% of historic Palestine. They have agreed to give up 80% but this is not good enough for USA and Israel. Palestine has already had free democratic elections but this is not good enough for USA and Israel.

As for USA. Invading a country on fabricated lies is nothing new, rather it is a pattern we see from USA time after time. Supporting ruthless dictators and oppression is also nothing new from USA. This also is a pattern. I have tried to focus from the year 2000 only but if we focus from say the 1950s it is not difficult to find a pattern.

[centrajapan]

Sem·ite (smt)
n.
1. A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
2. A Jew.
3. Bible A descendant of Shem.

People who speak Arabic are Semites.

Zionism is a colonial ideology in large parts of the world people define Zionism as racism however some countries like USA seem to embrace that ideology.

Zionism is a new ideology only just over 100 years old. I find it baffling that Americans here say wel the " Jews" were there first. I wonder where in the Bible does it say the Jews from Europe had a right to ethnic cleanse the land of its native inhabitants simply because they were not Jewish? That to me is an outrageous statement.

[Goldiegirl]

Why exactly do you even care centrajapan? I am curious on that. Are you worried that the USA will invade Norway? I don't think that is likely as we don't get too many Norwegian terrorists here. If you want to know the real threat to world peace, think of the country that has the most mouths to feed and needs the lions share of the earths precious resources. Keep that thought in mind.

[centrajapan]

Why exactly do you even care centrajapan?

Why are you so cynical?

If you want to know the real threat to world peace, think of the country that has the most mouths to feed and needs the lions share of the earths precious resources. Keep that thought in mind.

Could you be more specific?

[Mars Man]

There would be no doubt at all that in your unwillingness to broaden your horizons on just what world peace would mean, you are at disagreement in your stance towards the bigger picture which I am focusing on--the one which the title of this thread, at face value, had insinuated, but yet which was obviously not the real motive in starting the thread.

Your actions have belied your premise and your intentions.

In an EU poll more EU citizens voted Israel as the country whcih was the biggest threat to world peace than any other country.

And now, you have contradicted yourself. I would think that you'd have to give deeper consideration to many points. For example, the likelihood that Bin Laden had actually made that speech is not the question, but rather the accuracy of what he had claimed, you see--he had an agenda as well as the general USA government or the general Isarael government, the general Afaganistan government (at that time), and so forth and so on. A second and third neutral opinion from non-involved scholarship would be good thing to pursue.

Again, a poll of the masses in the EU doesn't amount to anything unless further data is presented so as to be able to filter for bias in methodolgy, and even then, what the masses feel, or even think, does not necessarily reflect careful thought, analysis, or knowledge of all knowable facts. In otherwords, it has little weight until it can be shown to have such.

centrajapan, you are expousing a very narrow scope of vision here, and again, are harping on a matter that is not as important a matter as that of the nature of the animal--the human being. For all the ills and faults that the general USA government has (and I would never try to deny that it does have those things) it is clear that (if you were to apply the study of history [total history]) the animal is capable of such. This is the core fault...if one wishes to see it as a fault. It is because your premise is false and your presentation is one-sided, that the whole of your argument is moot.

Now, why don't we move to the world scene...if, in fact, you had originally been intent on the issue of world peace.

[Hezam]

I disagree very much with your stance Mars-Man. If many people have put great efforts in stabalising the region then I have to say USA is not one of them. USA is making sure that Israel on this very day as I am typing this is ignoring international law and making sure that there woun't be world peace or stability in the region. How on earth can US keep on supporting a nation which practice severe racial discrimination and oppression?

How on earth can you invade a country on fabricated lies and be a direct reason for thousands of children dying and say US is not a threat to peace?

I am calling a spade a spade. Having read books, read news papers watched TV aswell as talking with various people from different countries and from my travel through various places in the world including the Middle East this is my personal conclusion which I have come up with. And I am not alone in this conclusion. In an EU poll more EU citizens voted Israel as the country whcih was the biggest threat to world peace than any other country. Having read bin Laden's script. Where it says in very clear words in black and white. I do believe Israel is a threat to world peace. I am not supporting bin Laden. But I understand that the US support of Israel fuels hatred. Which again makes my life more insecure in northern Europe.

I have no reasosn to believe that his speech to be fabricated. You can read it on various news sites.

Due to Middle East being an insecure region this again is making the entire world more insecure. I beleieve peace can be achieved but I also believe the biggest obstacle to peace is USA and Israel.

Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. Is it not about time that US wakes up and smell the coffee and start to take their share of responsibility?

Famous Americans like Carter is comparing Israel with South Africa. Nelson Mandela is comparing Israel with South Africa, Desmon Tutu another anti apartheid activist is comparing Israel to South Africa. 3 Nobel Peace Prize Winners is comparing Israel to former South AFrica.

Palestine has already agreed to make a state of the remainding 20% of historic Palestine. They have agreed to give up 80% but this is not good enough for USA and Israel. Palestine has already had free democratic elections but this is not good enough for USA and Israel.

As for USA. Invading a country on fabricated lies is nothing new, rather it is a pattern we see from USA time after time. Supporting ruthless dictators and oppression is also nothing new from USA. This also is a pattern. I have tried to focus from the year 2000 only but if we focus from say the 1950s it is not difficult to find a pattern.

these are facts

If we said the facts , is it wrong ? should we stay silent ? who will hear our sounds ?

who will care about us ? how can we live in peace with a country wich fight us ?

what can we do to return our rights ?

[Hezam]

I think if it ( Israel the biggest threat to world peace ) it will be right ..

[centrajapan]

Maybe it is you who is unwilling to broaden your horisons Mars Man. Your unwillingness to see the greater picture. Your unwillingness to see that US is a part of the problem not a part of the solution. 60 years of conflict in the region has resulted in people getting killed in New York City. Maybe it is you who have a hard time coming to terms that the US governments policy is fueling lots of anger and hatred.

From reading bin Laden’s transcript it seems as if Bin Laden attacked New York because of US policy in Israel. Because bin Laden attacked New York the world climate became worse as a whole.

If it was not for September 11. US would not have invaded Afghanistan. If it was not for September 11 US would not have invaded Iraq. That is a conclusion I have come up with. Because of September 11 US waged wars on 2 countries. Or do you perhaps believe that US would have waged war without Septmeber 11?

Israel being the home of 3 major religions of the world is ofcource going to have tremendous impact throughout the world. If there is not peace in Israel it will be harder to have peace else where. The war on terror is a good example of that.

If we want to have world peace then a good place to start is at the core. Namely Israel-Palestine. If we look at why Israel-Palestine is fighting is because 60 years ago Jews from Europe ethnic cleansed Palestine, took away their land and since then have been denying the Palestinians self determination.


Thank you for the good feed back Carlos.

[Mars Man]

We must keep in mind that a lot of people out there claim a lot of things as facts, and yet cannot give fully valid evidence to support those matters to the degree that they are said to be.

If we were to say that something were a fact, we'd have to be clear with the supporting evidence for that, and be able to answer to all rebuttals against the elements and particles of that evidence. False in one, false in all is the maxim that is exercised. I encourage such critical thinking.


Maybe it is you who is unwilling to broaden your horisons Mars Man. Your unwillingness to see the greater picture.

Which is broader, centrajapan san, the past 60 years or the past 3 million years flowing on into the next 5 billion?

Which would you consider the bigger picture, an area of land as it stands at a snapshot-like, single frame in time, or that area of land as it flows through the film of continuum?

Which have you been educated to understand as being the most material, the constituents of a single general government within a narrow time splice, or the constituents of the substance, build, and drive of the species which disallows material discernment between any single general government within a narrow time splice from any other single general government within any other narrow time splice?

[Derfel]

While I agree that the USA waged those two wars mainly because of the WTC events, I'd like to add that the US had to retaliate to show that "NO, You can't just murder our people!". It is a barbaric method, but for the US' status it was necessary.

[Hezam]

but for the US' status it was necessary.

Aha ...for the US' status ..!!!!

you mean the other countries and peoples are not as America ( the greatest ) !!

i understood it ...( the amour-propre )...

[scorpion da black]

i agree with centra japan.
he actually did the job for me explaining.

[Derfel]

Lets put it like this. If I were America in a school class, and someone threw a half brick at me from behind, i'd be so pissed that i'd beat everyone behind me up to get the one who threw a brick at me (its a brick after all, it can seriously harm me)

[scorpion da black]

Lets put it like this. If I were America in a school class, and someone threw a half brick at me from behind, i'd be so pissed that i'd beat everyone behind me up to get the one who threw a brick at me (its a brick after all, it can seriously harm me)

this is the kind of atitude we hate and Bush has.
if some one hits me i would hit only him...why hit innocent people who has nothing to do with it?

[Derfel]

So my classmates learn not to throw bricks at me.

[scorpion da black]

So my classmates learn not to throw bricks at me.

so you will invade two or three countries to set and example to other countries not to throw planes at your buildings ??
and who cares for the 750 000 civilians dead in iraq....

scary philosophy again

[Goldiegirl]

The the USA bombed the wrong country. I believe most of the terrorists of 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia...and isn't Bin Laden Saudi?

[Mars Man]

I am dismayed at the evidence here within this thread showing most clearly that so many of those who post here are not willing to think through things more carefully and deeply. This may indeed, after all, be the very reason for so much unproductivity and negative-outcome courses of action taken by so many parties and groups throughout the world, throughout history. Good grief !

Now please think about this carefully before responding ! If the title of this thread had been 'Destructive, Unproductive, and Negative-outcome Actions Taken by the General USA Government' then I would be right there with you guys pointing out some of the ills of the American government at large. I would be arguing for a change too!

If the title of this thread had been something like, 'The General USA Government's Involvement In Middle Eastern Instability' I'd be right there condeming a number of actions and postitions taken by the general USA government.

But you see, people, this thread's premise, one which is most incorrect and inaccurate, is, '[The] USA Is the Biggest Threat To World Peace.' Think about just what that is saying there, for a moment...I mean, really...think about it!

One, it is saying that the world is in a state of peace--obviously false if you go by my definition which is an elaboration of the general definition of peace.

Two, it is saying that it is the USA which is threating that peace--which is false firstly because the 'peace' element is false, and secondly because it is only a surface attitude that does not give any consideration at all for what it means to be homo sapien.

According to this, most of this thread has been somewhat off-topic. We are not posting on a thread about the Middle East problem.

[Mycernius]

The the USA bombed the wrong country. I believe most of the terrorists of 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia...and isn't Bin Laden Saudi?
Quite correct in that, but Saudi Arabia is a big trading partner with the US and the Bin Laden Family are business friends with the Bush family. Face it the war in Afghanistan and Iraq are all about money and power.

Lets put it like this. If I were America in a school class, and someone threw a half brick at me from behind, i'd be so pissed that i'd beat everyone behind me up to get the one who threw a brick at me (its a brick after all, it can seriously harm me)
Why not look for the person with brick dust on their hands first? Doing as you said would just foster a general feeling of hatred and resentment of the rest of the class. It is not an excuse for the US to act like the school bully.

[scorpion da black]

i am afraid people will start insulting each other untill this thread is also locked...
i agree with mars man....different ideas are welcomed, but keep it polite.

[Derfel]

It could be kept polite. People just need to accept that the selfishness in mens heart can not be purged, and its pointless to try. There is no right or wrong, there are motives. Everything happens for a reason, and for the best of a certain group. If you can accept politics as facts, you've made your peace with it.
Take a famous quote from Jesus Christ, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”. Now lets turn it all upside down.
"Expect others to do unto you as you would do unto them (if you had the power they posess)."
Voila, you have the solution there.

[scorpion da black]

well you have a point there..every one see right and wrong from his own view.

and that happens in all matters.

i see the existance of israel as wrong...you might see it as normal..

there is no definition for right and wrong...there is only point of views, that might grow fierce and reach insults....

guess this way, cultural colision is inevitable....and war is as well.
no one can convince the other so why not erase the other from the face of the earth...

again sad philosophy

[Derfel]

The facts don't change, only how you answer your "Why?" questions. It is quite sad i agree, but thats how things are. And the events in Israel are an abnormality if you view it as a member of a certain group, but it looks so calm and obvious and normal when you just attempt to fly outside of your skin, just view it all from above, as the sole specie of your own individual race, say the "scorpion da black" race or the "derfel" race or whatever, with no bonds, no relatives, no connection at all. Yes you maybe feel some sadness, but it all becomes obvious, and you immediately see the reasons you wouldn't otherwise. Try it that way, it is not any less sad, but perhaps its worth a try to give a shot at this view too.

[scorpion da black]

when humans loose their bonds they loose their humanity..
we are social creatures, we cant break free from our binds.

[Pachipro]

Is anyone here representing their government or their governments views? If not then please keep the insults private. There are plenty of other forums for that.


Quite correct in that, but Saudi Arabia is a big trading partner with the US and the Bin Laden Family are business friends with the Bush family.

And it was Bin Laden's family who were given air transport out of the US a day or two after 911 when no planes were "allowed" to fly.


Face it the war in Afghanistan and Iraq are all about money and power.


And do not forget about oil (and pipelines across Afghanistan which the Taliban opposed) for which Iraq has the second largest supply, and drugs (which also =money and power), particularly opium.

The Taliban had succeeded in eradicating the poppy farms and that took billions of dollars out the world economy and "someone's" hands. After the invasion of Afghanistan, the poppy fields again flourished and they are now, again, the biggest exporter of opium (which is used in heroin) in the world. Much of it destined for the streets of the US and Europe. Why was this allowed to happen? Look at who profits.

History lesson:

Throught history the ruling nations of the world have profited from addictive substances like sugar, tobacco, coffee, opium, alcohol etc. and today they clandestinely profit from the same today.

In 1560 Charles V of Spain built vast palaces using taxes on sugar trade.

In fact in 1660, the British found sugar "pushing" so profitable that it became a matter of national security. They passed the British Navagation Act of 1660 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigation_Acts)to prevent the transport of sugar, tobacco, or any product of the American Colonies to any port outside England, Ireland, and the British posessions. In 1662 Britain was importing 16 million pounds of sugar per year. Shortly afterwards humans started to suffer from diabeties which was an unkown disease until then.

It was also the most important export for Germany, France and Holland. They all profited from it while their people became sick and addicted to it.

In 1665 London was swept by the Bubonic plague and it was noticed that that the people who lived without sugar escaped harm when over 68,000 died. Hmmmmm.

In 1773 The Molasses Act of 1773 (same link as above) was passed by Britain putting a heavy tax on sugar and molasses coming from anywhere except the British sugar islands in the Caribbean. Sugar was also essential for the production of rum (alcohol), to which a significant percentage of humans were already addicted. Tobacco (nicotine) also began to gain more significance in world use at this time. Need I go into how Britain pushed and exported opium to China and other countries and profited vastly from it?

Therefore, it is to the great benefit of nations to have their people and others addicted to something whether it be alcohol, sugar, nicotine, opium, etc. Trade in these drugs is very profitable for them. On the one hand they tell us how bad it is for us, yet it is never fully prevented from happening or strict laws passed as any government can stop it if they really wanted to. Just as the US could stop the terrorists in Iraq if they really wanted to. After all, the US has the greatest technology and military the world has ever seen and yet they still cannot subdue some terrorists with absolutely no technology? Give me a freakin break! If the Bible is any indication then maybe David (the terrorists with no military or technology) will defeat Goliath (the US) as they seem to be doing.

So, is the US really the major threat to world peace? Not really, but it is they who have the strongest military right now so it is easy for one to say so. If it wasn't the US today, it would be some other country threatening world peace as, as has been going on for centuries, there will always be another force or country to step in and attempt to control the world. It's just the way of the world and it will never change. Ever!

Basically, the Earth is a morally corrupt and violent planet. It always has been and always will be and those that rule it (the fallen angels referred to in the Bible) will be here forever fighting among themselves for control as they have for millennia.

We pass through this plane of existance to learn and experience life on the physical plane (basically a kind of hell). If we succumb and our souls are corrupted by even one of the "seven deadly sins" (Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth [laziness], Wrath [anger], Envy, and Pride) we are doomed to return again and again until we eventually do learn to overcome them. Only then can we move up to a higher plane of existance.

Therefore, do not be ruled by your so-called leaders, but do and act as you feel in your own heart as there will forever be a major threat to peace on this planet. It's just the way it is.

[Derfel]

when humans loose their bonds they loose their humanity..
we are social creatures, we cant break free from our binds.

Yes we can, I personally don't view myself Armenian or Hungarian unless someone views me as one, and talks to me as one. To me, both of these races are primarily people, I don't really care which race they belong to. Same for everyone else, they're individuals, a single of their kind, before they're representatives of a nation in my eyes.

[Skullcrushergurl]

Geez. I wouldn't go as far as to say America is the biggest threat to world peace!!
FACE IT: THERE WILL NEVER REALLY BE WORLD PEACE.
And secondly it isn't America--It's Bush. When Clinton was in office it wasn't so bad. Now every other country hates us. Just relax. THE ONLY THING STOPPING PEACE BETTWEEN AMERICA AND ANY OTHER COUNTRY IS GEORGE W. BUSH!!
No matter what, countries will always fight over land, food, even oxygen AND ESPECIALLY RELIGION AND CULTURE!!

[Derfel]

Yeah, imagine life as a True Metal song and you're quite near, except for the different weaponry lol :D

[centrajapan]

I disagree that it is impossible to have world peace. Despite the world problems we have today I believe the world is less barbaric today than it was just 50 years ago or 500 years ago.

Each country has laws and regulations but the world we live in does not. Its pretty much anarchy, the survival of the fittest. Hopefully by time we will have laws and regulations and countries will start to respect them.

As small kids we used to fight but msot people grow out of it at a certain age. It should be the same with countries. We learn not to start killing each other over disagreements. Why should it be any different with countries and governments?

[RegDunlap]

skgirls wrote;And secondly it isn't America--It's Bush. When Clinton was in office it wasn't so bad. Now every other country hates us.You are joking, right?

Have you forgotten what happened on Clinton's watch?

Bosnia
Kosovo
Rwandan genocide
Bombing Sudan
Somalia fiasco
Bombing Iraq

Have I forgotten any?

[Sarapva]

We pass through this plane of existance to learn and experience life on the physical plane (basically a kind of hell). If we succumb and our souls are corrupted by even one of the "seven deadly sins" (Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth [laziness], Wrath [anger], Envy, and Pride) we are doomed to return again and again until we eventually do learn to overcome them. Only then can we move up to a higher plane of existance.

This would have been a useful argument on the "Ghost Stories" thread! I agree that the physical life is the hard one where we have to navigate through a perpetual "war" in one form or another. But I'm hanging on to the hope that it's possible one day to have world peace. It's a good idea that we as individuals do what we feel is right and not always listen to what our governments tell us.

Originally quoted by centrajapan:
I disagree that it is impossible to have world peace. Despite the world problems we have today I believe the world is less barbaric today than it was just 50 years ago or 500 years ago.

Each country has laws and regulations but the world we live in does not. Its pretty much anarchy, the survival of the fittest. Hopefully by time we will have laws and regulations and countries will start to respect them.

As small kids we used to fight but msot people grow out of it at a certain age. It should be the same with countries. We learn not to start killing each other over disagreements. Why should it be any different with countries and governments?

I agree with everything you said here, centrajapan. When I was a kid there were about 6 of us who played together in the neighborhood, and at one time we created "sides" (where there were 3 against the other 3). After a few weeks of being on one side or the other, we decided that having sides didn't really work and that it was better to all be on the same side. We decided that at 10 years old - you'd think governments could also see that!

[scorpion da black]

Yes we can, I personally don't view myself Armenian or Hungarian unless someone views me as one, and talks to me as one. To me, both of these races are primarily people, I don't really care which race they belong to. Same for everyone else, they're individuals, a single of their kind, before they're representatives of a nation in my eyes.

you just say that...
lets say some forign country invaded hungary , and they happened to be more inlighted and more righteous, would you side with them??
"""""no"""" you will side with your pack...

dont try to convince your self other wise.

[Derfel]

I would side with the party that offers better overall welfare for the country. The EU is very similar, you take on more, way more responsibilities, boundaries but in return, you receive better commonwealth. I say yes to that, half-breeds like me fall into different groups, my sense of national identity had been grinded up, what good does nationality do me except for offering a colourful world of traditions and a few unique traits? Nothing, radical patriotism is an anachronism that was necessary in the past, but not anymore.
As for world peace. I think a weird twisted form of world peace can be achieved, but as long as we're humans, we'll fight for earthly motives, and fight back for the same earthly, very very profane motives. You can't help it, only the means change, the type of warfare, but still, it remains warfare.

[scorpion da black]

that is a weird way to put it but i understand your point of view.
and it deserves second thought.
great reply Derfel

[bakaKanadajin]

Saying that the US is the biggest threat to world peace is like saying we should be afraid of the shadows on the wall instead of the hands that are making them. It doesn't matter what shape or form they come in, the money-lenders and ancient bloodlines that actually control global events are far more dangerous than any president or government.

http://www.harpers.org/media/image/art/BehindTheThrone_350x265.gif

[Hezam]

When I was a kid there were about 6 of us who played together in the neighborhood, and at one time we created "sides" (where there were 3 against the other 3). After a few weeks of being on one side or the other, we decided that having sides didn't really work and that it was better to all be on the same side. We decided that at 10 years old - you'd think governments could also see that!

what a great story !!!

If that right I can say you are great team ..

thanks Sarapva for the story ..it touch me a lot ...

[Sarapva]

what a great story !!!
If that right I can say you are great team ..
thanks Sarapva for the story ..it touch me a lot ...

Thank you, Carlos! When I look back on it now, I can see that as kids we had a small "society" in the neighborhood. We made rules that everyone had to go by - one that I remember was that no one could eat in front of anyone else unless everyone had some food. That was to keep from being envious and to make sure no one flaunted something in front of everyone else. I think governments could learn from us!!

[Derfel]

Dunno, my childhood was a tad bit different.
In my first three years I was hated quite a bit, one time the brats in my class beaten me up.
Cool, that taught me a lesson:
-deeds => talk, threats
-brains => fairness
So what did I do? Yes exactly, I beat them up whenever they weren't together, other times when there was a bunch of them, I was cautious.

[Sarapva]

Dunno, my childhood was a tad bit different.
In my first three years I was hated quite a bit, one time the brats in my class beaten me up.

I also had my share of being bullied in school, but at home in the neighborhood it was different somehow.

[Mars Man]

I think governments could learn from us!!

This is exactly what I have been saying all along...even before, but also on that thread having to do with a compromise for the Middle East. It is also for this very reason, that I reason that we, as one among the many life forms that there are, will probably never be able to realize world peace.

On this thread, by 'peace' we mean that state wherein two or more animals exist and persist in the activity of a livelihood in such manner as to not willfully inflict physical harm on another from which harm such activity cannot be maintained.

You see this is the amplified concept of how we usually define peace. What most folks forget to include within the boundries over which the effort to apply the definition is the social groups themselves !!

You see, the boundries cover all the nation/political/cultra-religio groups, AND those groups as well !! That means both between and within any and all groups!! Even if all the various national groups had a maintained peace between all others, as defined above, they would have to have that state, as defined above, within their own borders too !! You see what I have been driving at? We have to apply this all the way down to the very, very bottom to really make it world peace. We have to go all the way down to personal relationships, domestic states, neighborhoods, villages, towns, and cities, regions, states, and countries--not to mention various social groups within all these.

When do you think we will have an international political/national state with a single government head (say the UN with much greater power due to the individual national governments relinquish of a great portion of sovernty) wherein we do not need a police/military branch of government?!! Really, now...think about it realistically folks.

It will never happen. For that reason, we will never have world peace, unless we want to define it differently--maybe like it's ok to have some social groups going around within a certain country killing, on occasion, those of opposing social groups within that country as long as there is no fighting between any two countries?

Or, maybe it's ok to have a particular country with a fairly high homocide rate, as long as that doesn't spill over into another country or cause that country into which the homocide tendency had spilt over into to wage war with that former particular country in order to protect the citizens on that second country?

No. World Peace will more likely than not, never happen, even if the homo sapien were to totally become extinct. This is nature. This is the bottom line. We have big brains and can really think about, even more than our primate relatives (who, by the way, have been shown to at least think about it a little, in some ways). I too really, really, REALLY wish it could, and in and with my life vitality have work towards such a goal, but after these years, and not afraid--all the while still working towards that goal--to admit that it will never happen. At least not in any fully (100%) internationally/intranationally way.

[Sarapva]

I think it's true that it has to start from the ground up, in families, and even within each individual. If we could learn to live with ourselves and our families harmoniously, I think there would be a chance at world peace, because then it would spill outward, throughout a social group, then the country, then maybe the world.

But yes, world peace would not be just governments being at peace, but the people getting along together on a small scale. How could we have world peace when young people are going into schools and malls and shooting other people and then themselves? It would actually be a revolution for each individual person to come to terms with himself, because if everyone did that, there would be world peace.

[包龙星]

Some people always say the extence of imperialism caused fighting and killing. But what caused the imperialism ? Maybe it is the imbalance of the power in the world. :-)

Considering that Marxism and Communism were responsible for more than 100 MILLION deaths in the past century,I dont think the USA needs to apologize for very much.
My friend~ My major is phylosophy, I'm tackling several kinds of western wisdom,inclding Marxism. If you don't know much about a phylosophy,please don't draw a conclusion lightly. :genji:

[Derfel]

While Marxism cannot be called guilty, it is responsible for couple of thousands of deaths, so are almost all of the social "philosophies".
But please let me quote Winston Churchill, as no one could have said it better:


"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been tried from time to time."

Winston Churchill

[Hezam]

We made rules that everyone had to go by - one that I remember was that no one could eat in front of anyone else unless everyone had some food. That was to keep from being envious and to make sure no one flaunted something in front of everyone else.

me too ...i was like you ...these are called high ethics ...

I think governments could learn from us!!

i hope to see that...but the governments are different...

thanks alot

best wishes
Hezam

[centrajapan]

If USA stops bombing countries and wage wars the world will be more safe. I am not saying it will be perfect but more perfect than if US keeps bombing countries and ignoring international law.

USA refuses to renounce the first strike use of nuclear weapons. It won't commit to refraining from using nuclear weapons against non-nuclear weapon states.

USA refuses to sign a treaty to establish an international criminal court that could prosecute war crimes free from its interference.

USA refuses to sign a treaty banning land mines and cluster bombs.

Here are a few easy steps to make this world better than it is today.

[Hezam]

yes ..i think that's right ...i don't see any wrong ..

so i can agree with you dear centerjapan ...

and thanks ..

[Sarapva]

If USA stops bombing countries and wage wars the world will be more safe.

USA refuses to sign a treaty banning land mines and cluster bombs.

This is true - though there are Americans who have been trying to get land mines banned for a long time. We the American people don't want any bombing and killing.

[RegDunlap]

If USA stops bombing countries and wage wars the world will be more safe. I am not saying it will be perfect but more perfect than if US keeps bombing countries and ignoring international law.The vast majority of conflicts on the planet now have nothing to do with US bombing. A LOT of them seem to have to do with Islam, however. Perhaps if we just banned Islam, the world would be safer still...
USA refuses to renounce the first strike use of nuclear weapons. It won't commit to refraining from using nuclear weapons against non-nuclear weapon states.Why should they do this? What possible impact could this have?
USA refuses to sign a treaty to establish an international criminal court that could prosecute war crimes free from its interference.Such a court would be useless to actually prosecute the real criminals in the world, such as Little Kim in North Korea.
USA refuses to sign a treaty banning land mines and cluster bombs.Again, a worthless piece of paper. It is better that the US is honest about this than be hypocritical and sign it.

Most of what you are asking are empty, symbolic gestures that would accomplish exactly nothing. You want the world to be more peaceful? Get on board and help eliminate Islamofascism. Support democracy in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. Vote with your wallet and refuse to buy goods from brutal human rights violators like Red China. THESE are meaningful gestures that will bring about both peace AND freedom.

[Hezam]

A LOT of them seem to have to do with Islam, however. Perhaps if we just banned Islam, the world would be safer still...

i don't accept with the benighted to talk about Islam in this way...

you still little to talk about Islam ...

you must understand Islam before say anything ....

read about Islam here

http://www.al-islam.com/eng/

http://www.islamtoday.net/toislam/toislam.cfm?toislam=1

http://www.55a.net/firas/english/

read it and reply again .......

[Derfel]

I honestly have to admit, I didn't think much about that. But when I think about it for a second time, I have to agree with RegDunlap, those are just empty gestures. What is the likeliness of the USA going on an atomic-bombing-frenzy? Zilch.
Its cruel, indeed it is, but you know, I'd much rather support an agressor that has 23 000 - 30 000+ GDP, intentionally pushed down the worth of its currency, so it turns out that I can buy cheap, mostly quality American stuff, attempts to maintain a legitime government in the occupied countries (yes, even if its a USA collaborant one), doesn't try to "attack" advanced, "prosperous" countries in any way (terrorist bootcamps anyone?), and in general doesn't have a grudge against everything western, doesn't try to promote theocracy, doesn't threaten countries that don't celebrate thanksgiving (chador ban issues, anyone remembers?).

So yes, Islamic countries should deal with the terrorists. If they can't deal with them on their own, and they terrorize western countries, western countries will return the favor and purge the terrorists at a high cost, usually paid in innocent blood. Don't get it wrong, America isn't there for the thrill of killing innocent people, but every country knows the simplest rule of history and politics: If someone has to die, it better be them. America simply abides by that rule.
You blame America for going after the resources... please let me laugh, its obviously obvious. But could America invade a completely peaceful, prospering country? No, by not suppressing terrorism many of the countries mentioned earlier just shout:"Please invade us, our government is a mess, we have oil, we've got the terrorists too, so please Uncle Sam, invade us!4oneoneone11"

What that kinda attitude you can't blame anyone but yourself.

And you Carlos Santana, you probably shouldn't teach RegDunlap about religious tolerance after calling Jews a virus. You entirely lack self-criticism, go look for some, heard they were selling it for cheap in your local market, thats a better place for you to spend your time than these boards.

[Hezam]

And you Carlos Santana, you probably shouldn't teach RegDunlap about religious tolerance after calling Jews a virus

i mean the the Goverment Jewish in America ..not all Jewish ...you know that there are

more than 10.000 of Jewish in my hometown ( Yemen ) but they are not like the Jewish in the American Government .......

If i think all Christian people like you Ms.Derfel then i hate them ..

But I know there are a good Christian people better than you ....

i have many Christian Friends and i am happy to know them ..

you must understand me ...i dont hate the American ..but Bush and his Satan Group

thanks for Reply .......

best wishes
Hezam

[Derfel]

Ms.Derfel

The pork you ate probably upset your stomach and now you have visions, please call me Mr. instead.

And don't be afraid, I know that most muslims are not fascists unlike one of them...

[Hezam]

we don't eat The pork ...you know it is dingy animal..

and i am not afried of anyone , i must be estimable when i talk to the other ..

and thanks ...

[Derfel]

Lol you oughta open yer eyes and look at the http://www.jref.com/forum/images/misc/Male.gif symbol just right to the Hungarian flag.
"And don't be afraid" is yet again a rhetorical tool, you can disregard the literal meaning. But only for your sake lets replace it with "Rest assured..." or "Don't worry..." or perhaps "Chill..".

But sure no sense of humor... overlooking the pork part haha.

[RegDunlap]

i don't accept with the benighted to talk about Islam in this way...
you still little to talk about Islam ...
you must understand Islam before say anything ....
read about Islam here
http://www.al-islam.com/eng/
http://www.islamtoday.net/toislam/toislam.cfm?toislam=1
http://www.55a.net/firas/english/
read it and reply again .......

Oh Carlos my friend, I know plenty about Islam.
Enough to see that it has a lot of trouble peacefully coexisting with other religions. Look at the conflicts in Sudan, Indonesia, Phillipines (sp), and so on. At its heart, Islam is intolerant and insecure. When Islam is the majority, all other religions are reduced to second class status. Please feel free to define ther terms;
jizya
dhimmi
kaffir
haram
taqqiya
caliphate
najis
for those who may not know them.

* * * * * * * * * *

Let me make this a little more palatable for some. APologies for coming on strong sometimes...

In my opinion, there is a greater threat than the USA. This is in the form of religion, since it crosses borders and often takes over cultures as well.
An example would be....... Islam. It has an entire vocabulary dedicated to conquering and putting down other religions.

Shall we start with "kaffir"? This is a term used in Islam to describe non-Muslims. However, it is extremely prejudicial in meaning and is quite derogatory. The closest equivalent I can find is "goyim" in Hebrew. Not in the same class though.

[ahmed A.kholy]

Oh Carlos my friend, I know plenty about Islam.
Enough to see that it has a lot of trouble peacefully coexisting with other religions. Look at the conflicts in Sudan, Indonesia, Phillipines (sp), and so on. At its heart, Islam is intolerant and insecure. When Islam is the majority, all other religions are reduced to second class status. Please feel free to define ther terms;
jizya
dhimmi
kaffir
haram
taqqiya
caliphate
najis
for those who may not know them.


hi ,RegDunlap
i want to say that, the islam to confess the the two other religoins jew and crystian ,
and i see that from words that you write ' you do not know alot about islam ' and you may see only films or media

Islam is not a new religion, but the same truth that God revealed through all His
prophets to every people. For a fifth of the world's population, Islam is both a religion
and a complete way of life. Muslims follow a religion of peace, mercy, and
forgiveness, and the majority have nothing to do with the extremely grave events
which have come to be associated with their faith

if you want to talk about peace you can read reports about crimes , divorce ,steeling , and extortion
you will find that the islamic nations is the least at most , let us talk about numbers

[Mars Man]

JUST IN CASE !! This thread is not about ISLAM at all !! Now the matter of a certain element within the groups which make up that belief-system had been mentioned in the passing of supporting an argument. If a person feels that is wrong, a person should deal with that matter, backing it up with particular evidence, and not general statements regarding the general belief-system.

Also I came close to deleting some other posts here which seemed to be headed in a flamming direction...but perhaps have subsided. Please, everyone, be careful in reading, be careful in giving considerations for differences in English abilities.

As of Sunday, 12:19 pm Japan time, I am making notice here that any more talk of matters of Islam on this thread will bring a temporary ban. Not having re-read this post will not be accepted as an excuse for ignorance of this fact. Mars Man

[maushan3]

I think it's true that it has to start from the ground up, in families, and even within each individual. If we could learn to live with ourselves and our families harmoniously, I think there would be a chance at world peace, because then it would spill outward, throughout a social group, then the country, then maybe the world.
But yes, world peace would not be just governments being at peace, but the people getting along together on a small scale. How could we have world peace when young people are going into schools and malls and shooting other people and then themselves? It would actually be a revolution for each individual person to come to terms with himself, because if everyone did that, there would be world peace.

Unfortunately mental illness have always existed and will exist for the next several years hence the chain reactions creating more and more violence. It's mother nature.

Mauricio

[Skullcrushergurl]

Hm. This is getting kind of heated I see. But I'm not really for America. If anything I'm against it. I simply think it's unfair to blame just America for no world peace. If America was gone, the middle east would probably find another target. Maybe Japan or Europe.

[centrajapan]

America was gone, the middle east would probably find another target. Maybe Japan or Europe.

Probably not. If America was gone the Middle East would be much more peaceful. Your opinion implies that people in Middle East are born violent. It is mainly due to American support of Israel who oppress the Palestinians why the Middle East is divided thus increasing the chance of a conflict. Iraq would not have been at war had it not been for USA. bin Laden would not have attacked New York had it not been for USA and Israel either.

US has after all bombed more countries and waged wars on more countries than any other country in the past 60 years. This is why US is the biggest obstacle to world peace.

[Skullcrushergurl]

Probably not. If America was gone the Middle East would be much more peaceful. Your opinion implies that people in Middle East are born violent. It is mainly due to American support of Israel who oppress the Palestinians why the Middle East is divided thus increasing the chance of a conflict. Iraq would not have been at war had it not been for USA. bin Laden would not have attacked New York had it not been for USA and Israel either.
US has after all bombed more countries and waged wars on more countries than any other country in the past 60 years. This is why US is the biggest obstacle to world peace.
And now you're saying it as if Americans are BORN violent.
I was pointing out the fact that some places in the Middle East want to force their religion on other countries. Even countries that do not have much religion. In Japan there is a lot of Buddism or so I've heard. In many middle eastern places there is a belief that thier religion is supreme and so on.

[centrajapan]

And now you're saying it as if Americans are BORN violent

No, I am saying the US government is making people violent.

[mimoza]

I didnt read the whole thread. So I'm just gonna say my opinion. I dont think USA is the biggest threat on earth. I just think they had their share of bad politicians. Im lebanese and I say it loud and clear arab politicians have alot to learn. They are greedy, hypocrites, conniving and none of them care about their people. Every country has its good and bad, unfortunately most of what we are witnessing is bad. In the end we are all humans, and all we want is to live in peace. If not for ourselves then for our next generation.

There's an old Arabic proverb that says, "One hand alone does not clap."

Peace out :wave:

[mimoza]

And now you're saying it as if Americans are BORN violent.
I was pointing out the fact that some places in the Middle East want to force their religion on other countries. Even countries that do not have much religion. In Japan there is a lot of Buddism or so I've heard. In many middle eastern places there is a belief that thier religion is supreme and so on.

I hope I dont get banned for this... :relief:
Could you please tell me where are these places that are forcing their religion on other countries? Ofcourse anyone would find their own religion supreme compared to others. Otherwise they wouldnt believe in it, would they? Sorry for going off topic. I just would like to have some answers.

[Doc]

Criticism of the country's foreign policy is dealt with by assigning dismissive labels to the critics anti-American, communists, terrorist. The criticisms themselves are never addressed.

Never addressed? Oh how little you know. :okashii:

[Hezam]

Never addressed? Oh how little you know. :okashii:

If you have some points say it...It's not Chit Chat here...:okashii:

[bakaKanadajin]

centrajapan do you honestly believe the ONLY country contributing to world instability is the United States?

At the moment, the conference on global climate change happening in Bali is being stone-walled by three countries, the US, Canada and Japan. These three countries alone are holding back changes that would see greenhouse emissions reduced by 40% by the year 2020, a CRITICAL and much-needed change.

I'm ashamed to be a Canadian right now and I hope our government smartens up. Canada as a nation and government is guilty of damaging the environment for future generations right now as far as I'm concerned.

Each country is doing what it needs to do in order to maintain the almighty profit, the US just has more means and resources at it's disposal to do that with. When given the chance, even Canada, a beacon of middlepowermanship and diplomacy in the international community, can screw up royally because the voter are asleep at the wheel and have allowed the neo-cons to hijack the national agenda.

You're trying to chop a tree down by starting at the top, it won't work. If the US doesn't try to steal oil by blowing stuff up then China will, or India, or someone else. You're not necessarily wrong in your facts but your starting point is flawed.

[centrajapan]

centrajapan do you honestly believe the ONLY country contributing to world instability is the United States?

no but the biggest reason for instability.

[Skullcrushergurl]

no but the biggest reason for instability.
Tsk. That's BS. Other countries hate us because we have the best and always have.
We have luxuries and other places can't stand it. Other countries want what we have and they can't.
Get over it. Every country plays a part. It isn't like the U.S is just screwing up everything, going to other countries and taking land or robbing anyone.
Other places want what we have. There isn't instability--just jealously.

[Doc]

If you have some points say it...It's not Chet Chat here...:okashii:

It's "Chit Chat" not "Chet Chat." Furthermore, it is insulting to me and anyone else from my country to know that you and other members think that Americans do not understand nor teach both the good and the bad from our nation's history. Obviously for you and others in this topic who are vehemently anti-American, it appears that the line of thought is that the American people as whole are stupid, ignorant barbarians who are the cause to all the world's problems, and need to be culled out of the pack known as the human race as quickly as possible. Thank you for such intellectually dishonest comments. It really shows you and other members know nothing when it comes to American society, or what is acknowledged and taught here. Please continue to believe all the crap you hear from our government, the media, and Hollywood. It is really doing you and the world a favor.

-Doc:okashii:

[Hezam]

It's "Chit Chat" not "Chet Chat." Furthermore, it is insulting to me and anyone else from my country to know that you and other members think that Americans do not understand nor teach both the good and the bad from our nation's history. Obviously for you and others in this topic who are vehemently anti-American, it appears that the line of thought is that the American people as whole are stupid, ignorant barbarians who are the cause to all the world's problems, and need to be culled out of the pack known as the human race as quickly as possible. Thank you for such intellectually dishonest comments. It really shows you and other members know nothing when it comes to American society, or what is acknowledged and taught here. Please continue to believe all the crap you hear from our government, the media, and Hollywood. It is really doing you and the world a favor.


Oh O_o Doc san ..we don't mean that !!

we mean the Government not the people ..we never said " the people "

read all the replys to ensure ,,,

my uncle and his son's are in US ...I don't think you are bad or threat ..

you are one of the people ...do you agree with the government who fight us ?

i think you understood what i mean ^^

best wishes
Hezam

[Sarapva]

It's easy to have misunderstandings between people in different countries. There are so many cultural differences that sometimes a word or phrase gets misunderstood to mean something completely different from what was actually meant.

I think we're all basically the same all over the world. I've traveled some in third world countries, and the people I met there were basically the same as people I know in the U.S. I'm not talking about standard of living, but the essence of the person.

I don't agree with everything our government is doing, and I think we're contributing both to conflict and to peace in different ways. I am looking forward to a change in our government next year when we elect a new president.

[scorpion da black]

USA isnt the only country contributing to world terror and instability as some say and some refuse to acknoledge..........

but it is certanly one of the biggest contributers to terror and instability...
just read any statistic.........USA waged more wars in the latest 100 years then most nations combined....
and the same group of people are still rulingthe US, they are called the new conservetors, the hawks of the wight house...... they cant claim all their wars was to bring peace...
they shreded peace by waging wars that are motivated primarly by greed...

[centrajapan]

We have luxuries and other places can't stand it. Other countries want what we have and they can't.

I don't blame US for every single tragedy in this world but with no joking aside. I believe you have to be American to say something as stupid as this.

Americans are brainwashed from birth in believing US is the greatest country on earth. It's the education. What other country sings the national anthem as often as Americans do? Probbaly not even North Korea. US has a very dark depressing history on how they killed all the native people of USA then they dropped the A-Bomb. The only country to have done that and in the education they teach that they had to. After that they have been at war more than any other country on this planet. Americans choose their leaders.

[Pachipro]

Americans choose their leaders.
Not any more! Nor do I think we ever did with ballot stuffing and all.

I am looking forward to a change in our government next year when we elect a new president.
Change we will have. You can be sure of it. The sad part is the illusion many people have in that "we" actually elect our president. The only reason for the campaigns and primaries is to see which person the American public is more gullible in believing and a succesor is selected by the "committee of they". The media also do their part (since they are owned by "The Committee of They") to put into the minds of the gullible public the person that has already been selected and should win. This is done with false polls, seven second sound bites and other bs and the public usually falls for it. If the truth be told, it would be widely known that it is Ron Paul who actually holds the lead, but since he is not an insider, you will never hear his name mentioned even though he is in every debate and has won every one according to the internet.

We will get a president who "they" feel the American public is gullible enough to believe that an American Union and new currency is worthwhile and needed because of the death of the dollar and millions losing their homes, and that all illegal aliens in the US need to be given amnesty.
In 2001 it was decided (by "them") that Bush would be the president and when it turned out the public selected Gore "they" were stunned, caught off guard, and put into motion the supreme court to make Bush the president when it was Gore who actually won. What more proof do you need? In 8 months we were "attacked" and were at war 6 months later taking over the worlds second largest oil supply as was previously planned. Does anyone believe Gore would have been able to implement the Patriot Act with a Republican Congress? Not on your life.

With all the new programable electronic voting booths with absolutely no paper trail, we will get the president they want us to get and nothing more. (As was printed (and that can be BS also), Diebold, the manufacturer of the voting booths proclamed to Bush in 2004, "we will give you the presidency.") You can view a video produced by Princeton University on How to Steal Elections here (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/how-to-steal-an-election-with-a-diebold-machine-200693.php). Another link (http://www.why-war.com/news/2003/07/24/evotingf.html). By the way, FYI, Diebold machines were used in Iraq for their "election"

Go ahead and vote if you want, but it absolutely means nothing anymore these days. Even though I will vote for Ron Paul he'll never win, but I'll be damned if I'll give my vote to a Demopublican or Republicrat.

[centrajapan]

If I was American I'd vote Ron Paul.

[Hezam]

yes...it's the right way to choose your presidnt and your future ...

i agree with that ..

[Sarapva]

Change we will have. You can be sure of it. The sad part is the illusion many people have in that "we" actually elect our president.

In 2001 it was decided (by "them") that Bush would be the president and when it turned out the public selected Gore "they" were stunned, caught off guard, and put into motion the supreme court to make Bush the president when it was Gore who actually won. ... In 8 months we were "attacked" and were at war 6 months later...

Yes, this is what I'd like the rest of the world to understand - Bush didn't get in by the majority vote in 2000. Most Americans voted for Al Gore. On Sept. 11, 2001 my first instinctive thought was that this wouldn't have happened if Bush hadn't become president. He won the second election because of the "fear factor", I think - probably told to us by the media that when a country is in a war you shouldn't change presidents. I didn't vote for him either time.

[Hezam]

Yes, this is what I'd like the rest of the world to understand - Bush didn't get in by the majority vote in 2000. Most Americans voted for Al Gore. On Sept. 11, 2001 my first instinctive thought was that this wouldn't have happened if Bush hadn't become president. He won the second election because of the "fear factor", I think - probably told to us by the media that when a country is in a war you shouldn't change presidents. I didn't vote for him either time


Sarapva san : Arabs don't know that ..please if you can tell me how many people

voted for Bush and Al Gor ...I must tell my friends and all Aabic Forums to make them

understand American people are not bad as the Government

and i hope you say some words to Arabs people then i will tell them what do American

people feel to thier government ....that what i want to help American people ...........

Best wishes
Hezam ^^

[Derfel]

Tsk. That's BS. Other countries hate us because we have the best and always have.
We have luxuries and other places can't stand it. Other countries want what we have and they can't.

Honestly, Im not against the us, I don't hate it or anything... but this message made me laugh. As centrajapan pointed it out very correctly, this is utter BS.
First of all, there's no one talking about commonwealth, really, no one is.
Second, if I were given the chance to find a country to spend my life in a peaceful manner (not necessarily interesting, intense or anything, but generally on a high social level) I wouldn't even think of choosing the USA, I would probably choose a Scandinavian or Benelux country. Not that I have anything against the USA, and im not saying that I wouldn't want to visit the US someday, but that statement above is BOASTFUL. Obviously what I did is wrong as well, since countries can't be simply compared to each other, but I felt like doing it after reading that ignorant statement.
All in all one thing is for certain, Amazon has one day super saver shipping in the US, so if it wasn't for being socially secure and stuff, I would choose to live in there, especially now that the worth of dollar sank to unbelievable depths. Go go Amazon.com!! :D
Even though I don't have anything against the US, I have to say that they better prepare because China will be claiming their markets soon, and with the EU growing, we're taking our markets back. So GG, that luxury you have in your mind might be a bit fragile.

[centrajapan]

As much anti American political rant I come up with, I have to say there are many great things about USA. US has contributed so much positivity. It has given the world great music, art, ideologies, great people etc however it is not only positive.

[Sarapva]

Sarapva san : Arabs don't know that ..please if you can tell me how many people
voted for Bush and Al Gor ...I must tell my friends and all Aabic Forums to make them
understand American people are not bad as the Government
and i hope you say some words to Arabs people then i will tell them what do American
people feel to thier government ....that what i want to help American people ...........
Best wishes
Hezam ^^

Thank you, Carlos - I'll look for some statistics that I can send you and maybe some information about what the facts were during both elections. Yes, the majority definitely voted for Al Gore in 2000 - it was just by the power of the rich who wanted Bush to become president that they were able to destroy some votes and make it look like Bush had won. Give me a little time and I will PM you some information! - Sara

centrajapan - Thank you for balancing the anti-American feelings with some positive!

[Derfel]

As much anti American political rant I come up with, I have to say there are many great things about USA. US has contributed so much positivity. It has given the world great music, art, ideologies, great people etc however it is not only positive.

Lol yeah but you're probably not drooling with a rabid look on your face waiting for an opportunity to mug Americans somehow and claim their wealth, are you? :D Obviously there are many great American things, but America isn't the only country worth living in lol, I wouldn't even say something like this, because its obvious to me, but when I read that "You're all jealous!!wtfoneone114" drama I seriously couldn't decide whether I should beat my head against the wall, cry, laugh, or simply stare at the ceiling with an amazed look suggesting something like this: "Woooow, what a simple way of thinking...".
In the end I just decided to laugh lol. It was the best decision, its not worth breaking my head for such trifle stuff.

[scorpion da black]

jealous of America????? :souka: :?:?:sick::sick::sick:

that is like the funniest most immature, ignorant, narrow minded thing i ever read.

first we all have great sense of patriotism in us, we love our countries.
if America would let us be and mind its own business we would even make a nation as great ......

plus """""hello""""" this is J-ref .......we all love japan...this the country we are jealous of......i wish every country would look more like japan, including my own.
"we are jealous of japan " :p

[Derfel]

jealous of America????? :souka: :?:?:sick::sick::sick:
that is like the funniest most immature, ignorant, narrow minded thing i ever read.
first we all have great sense of patriotism in us, we love our countries.
if America would let us be and mind its own business we would even make a nation as great ......
plus """""hello""""" this is J-ref .......we all love japan...this the country we are jealous of......i wish every country would look more like japan, including my own.
"we are jealous of japan " :p

Im not jealous of anyone, im simply interested in Japan, on the other hand I don't have a trace of patriotism in me :D
On the other hand, If I were without inheritance and someone offered me an American green card I would accept it without much thinking, but since I have stuff to inherit, im not applying for a green card, its because this and not because I feel so attached to my country hehe :D

[centrajapan]

Iraq's war has been a catastrophy and so has the war in Afghanistan. bin Laden bombed New York there is even controversy surrounding that incident. They go to Afghanistan to catch bin Laden. They tell him that he is dead or is he? They start nation building in Afghanistan. A nation which previosuly was run by Taliban who used to get money from US to fight their proxy wars. US is nowtrying to secure new US bases in central Asia and Middle East so that they can gain more control over the natural resources. bin Laden is not important any longer. The Bush administration design is everything for a profit. Weapon manufacturers, contractors, oil comanies.

[Sarapva]

In response to Carlos Santana's question, this is the results of the 2000 U.S. presidential election. Al Gore won the popular vote by a half million votes. But Bush won more EV (electoral votes), which are based on percentages of people in states - it's complicated. I'm still searching for information and will PM with more. It was a close race, but there were votes in Florida that were thrown out because of old voting methods.


PRESIDENT EV States Won Vote % Votes

BUSH 271 30 48% 50,456,169
GORE 266 21 48% 50,996,116

Sorry - I've tried to get the columns straight. The last number is the popular vote.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Yes, the people of the United States do not directly elect the president. The electoral college is the intermediary step which directly elects the president. Originally, the founders of the US believed that the people were not sufficiently cultured or educated or what have you to directly elect the highest office in the land, so instead they devised a system where people elected a kind of "council of elders" to elect the president for them. This is the electoral college.

The number of votes each state receives in the electoral college derives from a simple formula: # of senators + # of representatives in Congress. Therefore each state has a minimum of three votes in the electoral college (because every state has two senators and at least one representative).

As the electoral college works today, every member of a given state's electoral college delegation votes for the candidate which won the popular vote in the state they represent. In theory members of the electoral college generally can vote for whomever they wish; however, some states have enacted laws which forbid delegates from casting their vote to anyone but the winner of that state's popular vote, and tradition and public sentiment on this point are so strong that it rarely happens that a delegate bucks the popular vote.

I beleive that in a bid to make the system more accurate vis a vis the general vote, a movement has started in several states to split the electoral vote based on the proportion of the popular vote won by each candidate. I don't know of the top of my head if any state has enacted such a law yet, however.

This is how I remember being taught in Middle school.

[Sarapva]

You paid more attention in school than I did, MO! Thanks for that explanation. I think it also has to do with the population of each state (which also decides how many representatives). I don't know either if any state has enacted the law to base the electoral vote on the popular vote yet. I know that voting methods are being scrutinized and changed in a lot of places after Florida's mix up in 2000 (where they used paper and hole punches for people to vote - some couldn't be read and there was a recount, and I think it took a couple of months before we knew who the next president would be).

These are a couple of links I've found about the 2000 election - the first is from CNN and has the total votes for Bush and Gore, and the second is from BBC which describes pretty clearly what happened then.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A679025

I think the 2000 election was the first time a president has won who didn't have the popular vote (which is why the electoral college really needs to be re-thought).

[centrajapan]

I can't believe 48% voted Bush. This guy is one stupid dude. Not once but twice. The war on terror in the Middle East to spread freedumb and democracy.

Mandela is dead according to Bush.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1KGwQ1O88Y

US isnt the biggest threat to world peace, stupidity is.

[Sarapva]

Bush got a lot of Christian fundamentalist votes, again based on fear. I also couldn't believe that so many Americans voted for him, but I think this is the explanation. The fundamentalists ("fire and brimstone", going to hell if you don't do certain things) were afraid not to vote for him.

[Hezam]

Sarapva san : thank you very much for the Messages ...I am translate them to Arabic
languege and i told the Admin of the Arabic forum ( that i one member in ) and he was
happy to hear that ...I am writing a thread for your Messages to Arab people and i still
translate them..I understan your feeling and your mind ^^ you are one of the good
people in this world ...we, Together will build a stronge friendship between US people
and Arab people to keep the peace in the world ..

thanks from all my heart ...
Hezam

[Sarapva]

Sarapva san : thank you very much for the Messages ...I am translate them to Arabic
languege and i told the Admin of the Arabic forum ( that i one member in ) and he was
happy to hear that ...I am writing a thread for your Messages to Arab people and i still
translate them..I understan your feeling and your mind ^^ you are one of the good
people in this world ...we, Together will build a stronge friendship between US people
and Arab people to keep the peace in the world ..
thanks from all my heart ...
Hezam

I'm very happy to do this, and glad you can translate them so the Arab people can understand. Thank you for taking the trouble! Yes, we can communicate and promote understanding and peace between our countries no matter what our governments are doing, so we can understand that we're all just people who want peace. :hihi:

[Doc]

Americans are brainwashed from birth in believing US is the greatest country on earth. It's the education. What other country sings the national anthem as often as Americans do? Probbaly not even North Korea. US has a very dark depressing history on how they killed all the native people of USA then they dropped the A-Bomb. The only country to have done that and in the education they teach that they had to. After that they have been at war more than any other country on this planet. Americans choose their leaders.

But waving your flag in your country and everyone else's face, having a love for your culture and society, and spouting good things about your own heritage over everyone else's is okay? Thank you for that double standard. I'll remember that so I will never buy an American flag or hang it ever again in my country, and to burn one every time I see it.

Not any more! Nor do I think we ever did with ballot stuffing and all.
Change we will have. You can be sure of it. The sad part is the illusion many people have in that "we" actually elect our president. The only reason for the campaigns and primaries is to see which person the American public is more gullible in believing and a successor is selected by the "committee of they". The media also do their part (since they are owned by "The Committee of They") to put into the minds of the gullible public the person that has already been selected and should win. This is done with false polls, seven second sound bites and other bs and the public usually falls for it. If the truth be told, it would be widely known that it is Ron Paul who actually holds the lead, but since he is not an insider, you will never hear his name mentioned even though he is in every debate and has won every one according to the internet.
We will get a president who "they" feel the American public is gullible enough to believe that an American Union and new currency is worthwhile and needed because of the death of the dollar and millions losing their homes, and that all illegal aliens in the US need to be given amnesty.
In 2001 it was decided (by "them") that Bush would be the president and when it turned out the public selected Gore "they" were stunned, caught off guard, and put into motion the supreme court to make Bush the president when it was Gore who actually won. What more proof do you need? In 8 months we were "attacked" and were at war 6 months later taking over the worlds second largest oil supply as was previously planned. Does anyone believe Gore would have been able to implement the Patriot Act with a Republican Congress? Not on your life.
With all the new programmable electronic voting booths with absolutely no paper trail, we will get the president they want us to get and nothing more. (As was printed (and that can be BS also), Diebold, the manufacturer of the voting booths proclaimed to Bush in 2004, "we will give you the presidency.") You can view a video produced by Princeton University on How to Steal Elections here (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/how-to-steal-an-election-with-a-diebold-machine-200693.php). Another link (http://www.why-war.com/news/2003/07/24/evotingf.html). By the way, FYI, Diebold machines were used in Iraq for their "election"
Go ahead and vote if you want, but it absolutely means nothing anymore these days. Even though I will vote for Ron Paul he'll never win, but I'll be damned if I'll give my vote to a Demopublican or Republicrat.

:souka:

You and I need to have a serious discussion outside of this forum my friend. You seriously just insulted my intelligence as a scholar with all of that stuff.

Honestly, Im not against the us, I don't hate it or anything... but this message made me laugh. As centrajapan pointed it out very correctly, this is utter BS.
First of all, there's no one talking about commonwealth, really, no one is.
Second, if I were given the chance to find a country to spend my life in a peaceful manner (not necessarily interesting, intense or anything, but generally on a high social level) I wouldn't even think of choosing the USA, I would probably choose a Scandinavian or Benelux country. Not that I have anything against the USA, and im not saying that I wouldn't want to visit the US someday, but that statement above is BOASTFUL. Obviously what I did is wrong as well, since countries can't be simply compared to each other, but I felt like doing it after reading that ignorant statement.
All in all one thing is for certain, Amazon has one day super saver shipping in the US, so if it wasn't for being socially secure and stuff, I would choose to live in there, especially now that the worth of dollar sank to unbelievable depths. Go go Amazon.com!! :D
Even though I don't have anything against the US, I have to say that they better prepare because China will be claiming their markets soon, and with the EU growing, we're taking our markets back. So GG, that luxury you have in your mind might be a bit fragile.

Just remember we're not the only ones the communists are going to want to kill in the end. I suggest putting a dog collar on now, and start barking and bowing to your soon-to-be Chinese overlords now. ;-)

Oh, and I wouldn't talk about the EU being so rosy. You guys have just as many problems as we do right now, if not more so. The fact of the matter is that too many people pay attention to BBC and CNN to know the difference.

Oh and with the value of the US dollar dropping,that's actually good for us right now. Do you know why? It is because we are now starting to export more goods than China, since our goods are now cheaper. Which means our economy goes up in the end. Currency is a double-edged sword, so remember that. For every negative action in the short-term, there is a positive reaction in the longer term. It all depends on how you play the game. If anything invest in gold. That way it's a win/win for you in the end.

:-)


US has contributed so much positivity. It has given the world great music, art, ideologies, great people etc however it is not only positive.

:giggle:

As well as, the degradation of human society as a whole with said garbage. Seriously, I wouldn't hold anything that our entertainment industries have created on a pedestal.

Yes, the people of the United States do not directly elect the president. The electoral college is the intermediary step which directly elects the president. Originally, the founders of the US believed that the people were not sufficiently cultured or educated or what have you to directly elect the highest office in the land, so instead they devised a system where people elected a kind of "council of elders" to elect the president for them. This is the electoral college.
The number of votes each state receives in the electoral college derives from a simple formula: # of senators + # of representatives in Congress. Therefore each state has a minimum of three votes in the electoral college (because every state has two senators and at least one representative).
As the electoral college works today, every member of a given state's electoral college delegation votes for the candidate which won the popular vote in the state they represent. In theory members of the electoral college generally can vote for whomever they wish; however, some states have enacted laws which forbid delegates from casting their vote to anyone but the winner of that state's popular vote, and tradition and public sentiment on this point are so strong that it rarely happens that a delegate bucks the popular vote.
I believe that in a bid to make the system more accurate vis a vis the general vote, a movement has started in several states to split the electoral vote based on the proportion of the popular vote won by each candidate. I don't know of the top of my head if any state has enacted such a law yet, however.
This is how I remember being taught in Middle school.

At least somebody paid attention in school during the US Government section. :cool:

I think the 2000 election was the first time a president has won who didn't have the popular vote (which is why the electoral college really needs to be re-thought).

Wrong. It was the third election in our nation's history where a candidate won without needing the majority of the popular vote.

Bush got a lot of Christian fundamentalist votes, again based on fear. I also couldn't believe that so many Americans voted for him, but I think this is the explanation. The fundamentalists ("fire and brimstone", going to hell if you don't do certain things) were afraid not to vote for him.

The fundamentalist vote is a slim minority in this country. "Fire and brimstone" tactics were not the thing that got GWB elected. Supposedly, it was the promise of tax cuts among other "conservative" based principles for our economy that got him elected. In other words, he was favored highly among conservatives in that regard in which the electoral college swung the vote in his favor. In reality, he was nothing more than a tool that the deep pockets wanted in office. It really is too bad that GWB didn't keep his promises since Congress and the White House spend more money in pork than a $20 hooker does on shoes. Then again that is the nature of politics and corruption.

[Pachipro]

Even though I will vote for Ron Paul he'll never win, but I'll be damned if I'll give my vote to a Demopublican or Republicrat.
He'll never win because he doesn't play the game and, like the othe candidates, is not owned by any corporation or depends on them for his campaign contributions.

Ron Paul Beats Own Fund Raising Record (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/12/17/ron_paul_beats_own_fundraising.html)


Yesterday, Ron Paul, the Republican congressman whose rock star status (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/15/AR2007061502428.html?nav=emailpage) on the Internet has singlehandedly fueled his campaign, broke that record, raising nearly $6 million in 24 hours.

On Nov. 5, which was Guy Fawkes Day (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/11/06/post_184.html), a symbol of rebellion in British history, Paul hauled in $4.3 million in 24 hours. And yesterday, the 234th anniversary of the Boston Tea Party, the day that helped spark the American Revolution, Paul's Web-savvy, intensely loyal supporters completed another "money-bomb," (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/12/03/paul_backers_anticipating_anot.html) raising nearly $6 million from more than 50,000 donors, half of whom were new donors. With 14 days left in the fourth quarter, the Texas Republican has amassed more than $17.5 million.
"This is exciting. It's crazy. I can't imagine any other Republican raising this kind of money this quarter. This means Ron Paul's message is really resonating with people..."

Glad I helped! Go Ron Go! Too bad it was only a one liner on the TV news. If any other candidate had done this it would be shouted from the roof tops and been the headline news for days and that candidate would have catapulted to the tops of the polls. Alas, such is not the case. So much for a free and honest press. As I said, we will get the candidate they want us to get and nothing more.

One person says it will be McCain/Gulianni and Hillary Clinton/Edwards. I believe that person. Let's see.

You and I need to have a serious discussion outside of this forum my friend. You seriously just insulted my intelligence as a scholar with all of that stuff.

Glad to discuss with you anytime Doc. It's all out there (for now) for those that seek the real truth.


Oh and with the value of the US dollar dropping,that's actually good for us right now. Do you know why? It is because we are now starting to export more goods than China, since our goods are now cheaper. Which means our economy goes up in the end.

Pray tell, what in God's good name is the US exporting anymore that amounts to anything? Movies? Porno? Beer/alcohol? What real goods do we export anymore. Can you, or anyone, please tell me?

Machine tools? Nope, all imported from China.

Textiles? Nope, nearly all imported from China, Asia, or South America! Look at your suits

TV's, cell phones, DVR's, or other electronics? Nope, we all know where they come from.

Ammunition for the US military? Nope, made mostly in China or other foreign countries. Cheaper

Cars? Many parts are manufactured in Canada or Mexico and shipped to the US for assembly, but more and more "US" cars are being made in Canada and Mexico and shipped to Mexico. GM announced that they will be opening a manufacturing plant in China within the next year or two.

Just visit your local Wal-Mart, Target, Kohls, JC Penny, Sears, etc. and look at the seal or tags. Over 90% are imported.

What do we export?


Currency is a double-edged sword, so remember that. For every negative action in the short-term, there is a positive reaction in the longer term. It all depends on how you play the game.

Not for the US dollar as it is planned to crash within the next year or so. Warren Buffet and Bill Gates say to get out of the dollar and they have put their money where their mouth is.

Here is a statement by Warren Buffet himself! (http://www.pbs.org/wsw/news/fortunearticle_20031026_03.html)


Through the spring of 2002, I had lived nearly 72 years without purchasing a foreign currency. Since then Berkshire has made significant investments in -- and today holds -- several currencies. I won't give you particulars; in fact, it is largely irrelevant which currencies they are. What does matter is the underlying point: To hold other currencies is to believe that the dollar will decline.

Both as an American and as an investor, I actually hope these commitments prove to be a mistake. Any profits Berkshire might make from currency trading would pale against the losses the company and our shareholders, in other aspects of their lives, would incur from a plunging dollar.

But as head of Berkshire Hathaway, I am in charge of investing its money in ways that make sense. And my reason for finally putting my money where my mouth has been so long is that our trade deficit has greatly worsened, to the point that our country's "net worth," so to speak, is now being transferred abroad at an alarming rate.


Warren Buffett to CNBC: U.S. Dollar Not the "Best Currency in the World" to Own Right Now (http://www.cnbc.com/id/21435354/)

If anything invest in gold. That way it's a win/win for you in the end.


That's the smartest and best thing you've said. Gold, at $800/oz today is still a great buy and is said to double within the next year. When I bought gold at $280/oz 6 yrs ago people thought I was nuts. Whose nuts now? I'm still buying it. In the end, as you said, it's the only way you'll win in the end along with other commodities like, silver, copper, and such along with oil which will be near $150/bbl by this time next year and curriencies other than the US$.

[yumeitsumo]

Yeah, personally I don't like what the US does. I am going to be a citizen of Japan... I wonder what you have to do to become a citizen of Japan... Time for me to post a topic.

[Doc]

Pray tell, what in God's good name is the US exporting anymore that amounts to anything? Movies? Porno? Beer/alcohol? What real goods do we export anymore. Can you, or anyone, please tell me?

Machine tools? Nope, all imported from China.

Textiles? Nope, nearly all imported from China, Asia, or South America! Look at your suits

TV's, cell phones, DVR's, or other electronics? Nope, we all know where they come from.

Ammunition for the US military? Nope, made mostly in China or other foreign countries. Cheaper

Cars? Many parts are manufactured in Canada or Mexico and shipped to the US for assembly, but more and more "US" cars are being made in Canada and Mexico and shipped to Mexico. GM announced that they will be opening a manufacturing plant in China within the next year or two.

Just visit your local Wal-Mart, Target, Kohls, JC Penny, Sears, etc. and look at the seal or tags. Over 90% are imported.

What do we export?

More than you'll ever know. (grain, fossil fuels, technology, etc)

Not for the US dollar as it is planned to crash within the next year or so. Warren Buffet and Bill Gates say to get out of the dollar and they have put their money where their mouth is.

Here is a statement by Warren Buffet himself! (http://www.pbs.org/wsw/news/fortunearticle_20031026_03.html)

Warren Buffett to CNBC: U.S. Dollar Not the "Best Currency in the World" to Own Right Now (http://www.cnbc.com/id/21435354/)

Economics is your friend, ignorance is not. You cannot predict what the economy will do in the long term. On the flip side, you cannot directly control the economy on the short term either. The economy is a living breathing thing whether you like it or not. At the end of the day, it is the average consumer that makes this country go round. You can believe that the rich will destroy us all you want. When this crap you spout is considered invalid by next year it won't really matter anymore. I have more confidence in the American people than I do in your crackpot theories.

Furthermore, the Amero was joke created by an artist for the US Mint. Then again, I never expected you to hear about that story. Also, the only place where Mexamericanda is a reality is in Texas, and the citizens there are doing a pretty good job of fighting it. I am appalled that you would let your cynicism blind the good of the American people fighting the "evil US conglomerate." After all, the people help shoot down the illegal immigration bill, but I'm sure you'll say that they didn't. If we do indeed go down, we will be taking others with us. Just remeber that.

That's the smartest and best thing you've said. Gold, at $800/oz today is still a great buy and is said to double within the next year. When I bought gold at $280/oz 6 yrs ago people thought I was nuts. Whose nuts now? I'm still buying it. In the end, as you said, it's the only way you'll win in the end along with other commodities like, silver, copper, and such along with oil which will be near $150/bbl by this time next year and currencies other than the US$.

The bi-metals market is a good market to invest in period. You can frame your justification up all you want with your crackpot conspiracy theories, but at the end of the day, bi-metals are good investment for simple, yet practical reasons.

I also have something I want you to check out. There is a guy who goes right up your ally with all the crap you've been talking about. His name is Dr. Michael Lynch, and he is a regular on The Dave Glover Show here in St. Louis. Here's some sites for you to go to, to make you even more comfortable with your thoughts, no matter how wrong they are.

DGS: http://www.971talk.com/Glover/index.aspx
Lynch: http://paravision.homestead.com

Have fun you whack job! :wave:

Yeah, personally I don't like what the US does. I am going to be a citizen of Japan... I wonder what you have to do to become a citizen of Japan... Time for me to post a topic.

Then by all means, please move somewhere else. I don't want somebody living here, if they don't like it.

[Mars Man]

I'm gonna have to check back here later tonight, so please do forgive me for the moment. As it appears, however, (at the moment) is that we have gone off-topic...unless this somehow can be shown to be embedding to support a point in any pro or con argument for the claim that the OP gives us.

For now, please do refrain from the present line of development, and focus back on the OP's charge. Thanks !! MM

[Pachipro]

The truth of the matter is, it is not the US per se who is a threat to world peace, but the multi-national corporations (most who are headquartered in the US) who are the threat and they control the strings of governments in the western world and to some extent Korea and Japan.

Economics is your friend, ignorance is not. You cannot predict what the economy will do in the long term. On the flip side, you cannot directly control the economy on the short term either. The economy is a living breathing thing whether you like it or not. At the end of the day, it is the average consumer that makes this country go round. You can believe that the rich will destroy us all you want. When this crap you spout is considered invalid by next year it won't really matter anymore. I have more confidence in the American people than I do in your crackpot theories.

Whoa Doc! Did I hit a little too close to home? You're getting a little angry I see and angry you should be just as I am, but please do not persecute or shoot the messenger. It's the truth whether you want to believe it or not. Maybe you have not seen the movie America:Freedom to Facism (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173). See that movie and tell me the Federal Reserve does not control the economy of the US or the ECB of Europe or the CBE of England.

You probably have not read the book by Harvard PhD, Dr. Jerome Corsi titled, The Late Great USA :the Coming Merger With Mexico and Canada (http://www.amazon.com/Late-Great-U-S-Coming-Merger/dp/0979045142)either. Read that book and the reviews and tell me I am a crackpot as he backs up his claims with verifible proof in his notes.

It's coming whether you or I like it or not. We may delay it as we did with the immigratiuon bill, but that too will be passed in a matter of time.

If the dollar does not die, gold does not go above $1,000/oz, the stock market does not go below 7,500, millions do not lose their homes, amnesty not granted to all illegals, Mexican truckers not allowed to roam freely in the US (as they do now in a "test"), oil not at $120 - $140/bbl by this time next year, and a call for a new currency and an American Union, etc., etc. within the next 2-3 years I will profusly apologize, acknowledge my faults, and say that I am a gullible, idiotic conspiracy nut who does not do his research and will cease from any more writings on the subject. I promise here and now.

What will you do if I am right? My research leads me to believe I will not be wrong as it is coming true little by little every day as it has been for the past 15 yrs. Remember, it is done by incrementalism. It does not happen overnight.


The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. - J. Edgar Hoover, former head of the FBI

You can refuse to acknowledge what is happening before your very eyes or you can do your research. Me? I prefer to believe what Rockefeller, Rothschild, JP Morgan, etc., etc, have written and prophesized for the past 100 years as what they have written is coming true this very day and at a faster pace and refuse to believe what I am told in school or on the news as they own them also.

[centrajapan]

The truth of the matter is, it is not the US per se who is a threat to world peace, but the multi-national corporations (most who are headquartered in the US) who are the threat and they control the strings of governments in the western world and to some extent Korea and Japan.

Its the Multi Nationals but government too. Japan doesnt bomb Afghanistan because of Mitsubishi. USA bombs Afghanistan because of Mitsubishi. Who are the Illmunati Nationals? Shell, BP and other oil companies, weapon manufacturers, contractors.

[Dimitree]

"the biggest threat to world peace" is anyone in location X with a gun in his heand and anyone in location Y with a gun in his hand using it and claming it's for a good couse...
That's the biggest threat.
And there are more and more people like this every day :)

[Doc]

@Pachipro (I don't feel like quoting all of your crap, so I'm just going to respond in this approach.)

If we were to become a North American Union, the ramifications would be disastrous. Canada would refuse to have US involvement on the exploitation of their natural resources, Americans would refuse to give up their sovereignty and constitution to either country or the UN for that matter, and Mexico would have serious issues when both Canada and the US start shutting the doors to the "bread line." It would be a bigger mess than you think. People would lose their homes, jobs, and livelihood to the currency and governmental exchange, and the effects would be global.

It isn't going to happen not only because of those factors, but also because the US government has no interest in such drabble. Being an economical union doesn't make money like people think it will. The EU has already proved that. Do not forget that our government was the one that came up with such ideas back at the beginning and middle of the 20th Century, but quickly learned such ideas to be severely faulty. All it does is create false security and a bigger bureaucracy. Let's take a look at the EU shall we? Sure the Euro is strong, but that's because of currency speculation and the fumes of money we gave Europe to help them off their feet. What industries does Europe have? What could help them make so much money? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Europe has practically outsourced everything to third world nations to help them get off their feet. They're worse than us. Plus, each individual European country is having its own problems that aren't being addressed. Instead, there are bunch of fat cats in Brussels who are sitting on their asses making money off the plight of the people. The Euro isn't may not last much longer has a "great" currency. Remember the Krugerand? Yeah, I thought so.

Conflicts of cultures, languages, and borders also cause further problems. Nobody is willing to give up their "home" for the good of the EU. Granted the EU looks like it wants to be a model of one giant country, but it will never work. Besides systems like ours were designed with a different tactic from the get go anyway. Also, Europe claims that their sixty years of peace has come and gone which means they will be able to be united without the threat of war. Really? From what I can tell it has made Europe weaker to outside forces that could easily steamroll the region. Economical unions do not work well. All they are is lean operations, downsized nations, outsourced industries, etc for a bunch of wealthy fat bastards to rule everybody over with an iron fist. It doesn't stop global conflicts, and it doesn't make things better in the long haul. Americans aren't so naive to get into something like that, nor is Canada and several other nations across the globe.

If we had a NAU there would be a severe outcry. You think that people are being hoodwinked, but you're wrong. Nobody is interested in a NAU, and nobody is going to buy it either, especially with Mexico. It's bad enough what we have now, but if we became an NAU hate crimes would bring on a whole new meaning. Also, about that super highway you preach about constantly. Texans are fighting that stupid thing for all it's worth, and looks like they're going to win. You really think the rich have this plan thought out huh? That we may stall it, but it is inevitable right? You obviously underestimate the power of the American people, which to me is very sad indeed. Violence and actions will take place before we become an NAU. There may be a discontent among the people, but not so much to make us lack the will to take action. Stop with the cynical talk before it eats you alive.

As for the FED, all the FED does is control the flow of government properties and equities among banks. Granted they influence the economy, but consumer value is what controls it. The FED cannot make a new currency, and they cannot regulate it either. Only the federal government can as written in our Constitution. You tell me all you want that Bush and his cronies could propose such a measure for the Amero, but the American people won't buy it. We love our Constitution, our dollar, and our sovereignty too much to give it up for the rich, or the good of the "global community." Seriously, the UN can kiss my ***. They are the poorest excuse for a bureaucracy I have ever seen in my life.

If anybody is gullible enough in believing that the UN and the EU are models in a peaceful world, you got another thing coming. All you are doing is feeding the monster, and nobody wants that. Screw the international courts, and all the touchy-feely crap people in other countries like. It won't work here. Americans aren't griped by the illusion of the quasi-intellectual mentality. We aren't gripped by a false sense of security. We see the world for what it is, a nasty, brutish place where nobody expects anything from you and vice versa. To think we will fall for the "union" to save us all is a sick joke.

So you are willing to admit that you are wrong when none of this crap happens right? Fine. Then if by some sick, freakish *** turn of events it does I will admit that I was wrong, and to go one step further I'll take my own life too. I would much rather have bullet in my brain than allow the sovereignty of my country destroyed by a bunch of bastards in the UN and the global community. Happy now?

"the biggest threat to world peace" is anyone in location X with a gun in his heand and anyone in location Y with a gun in his hand using it and claming it's for a good couse...
That's the biggest threat.
And there are more and more people like this every day :)

At least somebody on here has a brain, and gets the bigger picture of the world today. You sir have my respect. Not only that, but I'm going to give some positive reputation for your comment. :cool:

-Doc :wave:

[centrajapan]

It would probably be better if every country started to respect international laws and agreements than if everyone started taking the law into their own hands. That is what USA is doing. They are the world champions in breaking international law.

It would also be better if more countries started banning certain types of weapons such as chemical weapons, cluster bombs, land mines.

Even better. If US stopped bombing countries wouldn't this world be a much better place?

[Skullcrushergurl]

It would probably be better if every country started to respect international laws and agreements than if everyone started taking the law into their own hands. That is what USA is doing. They are the world champions in breaking international law.
It would also be better if more countries started banning certain types of weapons such as chemical weapons, cluster bombs, land mines.
Even better. If US stopped bombing countries wouldn't this world be a much better place?
Geez!!! Why does everyone act like America is just destroying everything. I know America does some things they aren't supposed to but it isn't that bad.
But you know what?
It'd be so much better if people stopped pointing fingers at each other and did their own part! So no it isn't America that is such a big threat to world peace!
We all need to stop playing the blame game and then we would have a chance at world peace but we will NEVER achieve world peace. Do you know why? Because there is always something evil, whether it is a person or something that will cause confusion. There will be world peace when the planet turns into a Eutopia.

[bakaKanadajin]

@Pachipro (I don't feel like quoting all of your crap, so I'm just going to respond in this approach.)

If we were to become a North American Union, the ramifications would be disastrous. Canada would refuse to have US involvement on the exploitation of their natural resources, Americans would refuse to give up their sovereignty and constitution to either country or the UN for that matter, and Mexico would have serious issues when both Canada and the US start shutting the doors to the "bread line." It would be a bigger mess than you think. People would lose their homes, jobs, and livelihood to the currency and governmental exchange, and the effects would be global.

It isn't going to happen not only because of those factors, but also because the US government has no interest in such drabble. Being an economical union doesn't make money like people think it will. The EU has already proved that. Do not forget that our government was the one that came up with such ideas back at the beginning and middle of the 20th Century, but quickly learned such ideas to be severely faulty. All it does is create false security and a bigger bureaucracy. Let's take a look at the EU shall we? Sure the Euro is strong, but that's because of currency speculation and the fumes of money we gave Europe to help them off their feet. What industries does Europe have? What could help them make so much money? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Europe has practically outsourced everything to third world nations to help them get off their feet. They're worse than us. Plus, each individual European country is having its own problems that aren't being addressed. Instead, there are bunch of fat cats in Brussels who are sitting on their asses making money off the plight of the people. The Euro isn't may not last much longer has a "great" currency. Remember the Krugerand? Yeah, I thought so.

As a Canadian I can attest to the fact that most of us are pretty unaware of the SPP meetings that are taking place, and there is a fairly steady approval rate for what the current neo-cons are doing. I just saw our dollar skyrocket from 2/3 of a cent to parity to $1.15USD and then back down some. So I don't think it's impossible for economics, whatever you believe those to be, to influence public opinion to the degree that government is able to step in and do things. It's not going to be a partnership that necessarily yields green fields for everyone. If this North American unification takes place it will be out of desperation on both sides and a necessary posturing.

Canada shouldn't have joined NAFTA either under Mulroney, but if we had been left out of the deal our economic position with relation to cheap labour in Mexico and access to American markets for our existing international business interests would have been compromised.


Conflicts of cultures, languages, and borders also cause further problems. Nobody is willing to give up their "home" for the good of the EU. Granted the EU looks like it wants to be a model of one giant country, but it will never work. Besides systems like ours were designed with a different tactic from the get go anyway. Also, Europe claims that their sixty years of peace has come and gone which means they will be able to be united without the threat of war. Really? From what I can tell it has made Europe weaker to outside forces that could easily steamroll the region. Economical unions do not work well. All they are is lean operations, downsized nations, outsourced industries, etc for a bunch of wealthy fat bastards to rule everybody over with an iron fist. It doesn't stop global conflicts, and it doesn't make things better in the long haul. Americans aren't so naive to get into something like that, nor is Canada and several other nations across the globe.

There's very little conflict of culture between America and Canada. I think most of the growing pains with regards to US/Canadian cultural integration have already been addressed since NAFTA.

Europe isn't weaker now than before either. In this day and age it's becoming less and less efficient to march into a place and 'steamroll' it anyway. How do you mean Europe has weakened itself? Against who do they even need to worry about standing up to? China? They have NATO, they're fine.

Economically they're diversifying away from fossil fuels and lead the world in renewables and green technology.

If the conditions are so bad why do these little POS countries who aren't a part of the EU yet want to get in so bad? Because it's the lesser of two evils; jump on the train or get left behind.



If we had a NAU there would be a severe outcry. You think that people are being hoodwinked, but you're wrong. Nobody is interested in a NAU, and nobody is going to buy it either, especially with Mexico. It's bad enough what we have now, but if we became an NAU hate crimes would bring on a whole new meaning. Also, about that super highway you preach about constantly. Texans are fighting that stupid thing for all it's worth, and looks like they're going to win. You really think the rich have this plan thought out huh? That we may stall it, but it is inevitable right? You obviously underestimate the power of the American people, which to me is very sad indeed. Violence and actions will take place before we become an NAU. There may be a discontent among the people, but not so much to make us lack the will to take action. Stop with the cynical talk before it eats you alive.

This isn't an insult but I really don't see a lot of substance here. You're saying no one's interested, no one's gonna stand for it, and everyone's gonna stand up and fight any further attempts to erode civil liberties and further police-state integration. But you're forgetting that your civil liberties and freedoms have already been largely eroded through the Patriot Act and 9/11, regardless of one's views on the motivating factors and players surrounding 9/11.

If you look at what has happened it's incredible that anyone would put so much weight into the idea that somehow the people are going to be the deciding factor. The people are, at this point, asleep at the wheel.

As for the FED, all the FED does is control the flow of government properties and equities among banks. Granted they influence the economy, but consumer value is what controls it. The FED cannot make a new currency, and they cannot regulate it either. Only the federal government can as written in our Constitution. You tell me all you want that Bush and his cronies could propose such a measure for the Amero, but the American people won't buy it. We love our Constitution, our dollar, and our sovereignty too much to give it up for the rich, or the good of the "global community." Seriously, the UN can kiss my ***. They are the poorest excuse for a bureaucracy I have ever seen in my life.

If anybody is gullible enough in believing that the UN and the EU are models in a peaceful world, you got another thing coming. All you are doing is feeding the monster, and nobody wants that. Screw the international courts, and all the touchy-feely crap people in other countries like. It won't work here. Americans aren't griped by the illusion of the quasi-intellectual mentality. We aren't gripped by a false sense of security. We see the world for what it is, a nasty, brutish place where nobody expects anything from you and vice versa. To think we will fall for the "union" to save us all is a sick joke.

So you are willing to admit that you are wrong when none of this crap happens right? Fine. Then if by some sick, freakish *** turn of events it does I will admit that I was wrong, and to go one step further I'll take my own life too. I would much rather have bullet in my brain than allow the sovereignty of my country destroyed by a bunch of bastards in the UN and the global community. Happy now?



Again any manipulation of the currency will probably not be suggested under the guise of the good of the global community, but moreso something incredibly important and necessary to ensure the economy doesn't go completely under. I don't think PachiPro is arguing that Bush and his cronies are going to single handedly pull this off, it's more like central banks and those who stand to truly profit are going to be passive in watching things reach a certain point (which they're already doing on their own with the subprime mortgage and credit crisis fall out, the devaluation and divestment of US currency abroad, etc) and then suggest a last-minute solution that people have no real choice but to accept.

People these days are accustomed to making their political decisions based on what they see on TV, hear snippets on the news about, etc. Iran never had any nuclear weapons and this has been proven, but prior to that report if you asked the average 'informed' American they would have sworn Iran was the greatest threat to the US ever, to no fault of their own.

[Doc]

As a Canadian I can attest to the fact that most of us are pretty unaware of the SPP meetings that are taking place, and there is a fairly steady approval rate for what the current neo-cons are doing. I just saw our dollar skyrocket from 2/3 of a cent to parity to $1.15USD and then back down some. So I don't think it's impossible for economics, whatever you believe those to be, to influence public opinion to the degree that government is able to step in and do things. It's not going to be a partnership that necessarily yields green fields for everyone. If this North American unification takes place it will be out of desperation on both sides and a necessary posturing.

Which many Americans pray will never happen.

Canada shouldn't have joined NAFTA either under Mulroney, but if we had been left out of the deal our economic position with relation to cheap labour in Mexico and access to American markets for our existing international business interests would have been compromised.

Free trade is a tricky issue that would take up too much time for me to discuss in a single post. It would be much better if it was in its own separate topic. It is a double-edged sword of sorts that people fail to recognize. Neo-cons are too stupid to realize the principles needed to make such a system work effectively, but then again when your own pockets and political life is on the line, who expects you to actually care?

There's very little conflict of culture between America and Canada. I think most of the growing pains with regards to US/Canadian cultural integration have already been addressed since NAFTA.

It isn't culture that I am talking about. It is about political discontent on sharing the resources. The issue of culture that any of the countries may have in relation to a partnership is Mexico, for reasons I am sure you are already aware of.

Europe isn't weaker now than before either. In this day and age it's becoming less and less efficient to march into a place and 'steamroll' it anyway. How do you mean Europe has weakened itself? Against who do they even need to worry about standing up to? China? They have NATO, they're fine.

Economically they're diversifying away from fossil fuels and lead the world in renewables and green technology.

If the conditions are so bad why do these little POS countries who aren't a part of the EU yet want to get in so bad? Because it's the lesser of two evils; jump on the train or get left behind.

You are looking at it all on a macro level from what you heard in the global news. It is the micro level that is a major concern. Many of the EU nations are running into trouble trying to keep their socialist systems in place. Germany and France are two primary examples. Furthermore, the exploitation of the former Eastern Bloc countries and resources isn't doing the EU any favors either. As some Europeans on this forum have expressed on here, it has created a disdain for the EU, and the goals it is trying to achieve. The only reason why so many countries are trying to get on board is because of the money the EU is promising for their resources. The problem is the EU spends more time making money off poor countries, than it does trying to fix the problems of its members to prevent any long term economical issues that could arise in an indefinite amount of time.

That is what I meant by weakened. It has nothing to do with the NATO, or anything like that. I am only talking politics and economics here. Although you did prove my point that people are putting too much stock into the EU right now. Sure everything looks rosy, but that can turn around in the next decade.

This isn't an insult but I really don't see a lot of substance here. You're saying no one's interested, no one's gonna stand for it, and everyone's gonna stand up and fight any further attempts to erode civil liberties and further police-state integration. But you're forgetting that your civil liberties and freedoms have already been largely eroded through the Patriot Act and 9/11, regardless of one's views on the motivating factors and players surrounding 9/11.

If you look at what has happened it's incredible that anyone would put so much weight into the idea that somehow the people are going to be the deciding factor. The people are, at this point, asleep at the wheel.

Asleep at the wheel? Depends on the issue. Borders, economics, and political unrest are such issues where people are not asleep at the wheel. If this were the case then there would not be such a cult following for Ron Paul right now. Once again, you are just going by what you hear on the television. By and large Americans are getting tired of all the BS that has been spouted out lately. They just want stuff done, no questions asked. To think nobody cares is silly, and to further think that people will always be willing to be fooled into a complete governmental take over is short-sided too. All I am saying is don't underestimate people. All you need is a few key people to turn the situation around. Therefore, stop making it out to be like big brother will always win. Eventually big brother usually gets his throat cut. It just depends on when that moment will happen. Will it be when our civil liberties are completely taken away, or before that will happen? Only time will tell.

Again any manipulation of the currency will probably not be suggested under the guise of the good of the global community, but more so something incredibly important and necessary to ensure the economy doesn't go completely under. I don't think PachiPro is arguing that Bush and his cronies are going to single handedly pull this off, it's more like central banks and those who stand to truly profit are going to be passive in watching things reach a certain point (which they're already doing on their own with the subprime mortgage and credit crisis fall out, the devaluation and divestment of US currency abroad, etc) and then suggest a last-minute solution that people have no real choice but to accept.

Actually, the FED is about the only organization that does their job in this country. If there is anybody that is being passive on the issue it is the federal government. Look at it this way: The FED is the board of directors to the corporation known as America. While their job only requires them to keep their shareholders happy (the American people), they really do nothing much except put policies in place to make sure the corporation keeps running (while partying on their yahts). It is the middle management (federal government) who does most of the decision making down on the food chain, and tells the workers (businesses and banks) what to do. However, when the middle management starts to pocket the funds for themselves and make foolish decisions, a finger pointing game begins on who is responsible. It is then up to the board of directors to set plans into place to help cut the losses, but also keep the shareholders invested into the corporation.

That is how it works. The FED does nothing more than help keep things in line when the federal government decides to dick things up. The FED has tried to pass several measures to keep things running smoothly, but the federal government is screwing around trying to fill their own pockets. Trust me, the last thing the central banks here want to be is passive. Their money is on the line, and when you have irresponsible bureaucrats in a large group messing everything up, it is about time to have a change. Of course that change does not entail a NAU. The losses would be even greater in the long term than they are now. The FED has recommended several measures lately including ending the Bush tax cuts, raising middle class income, bailing people out in the housing market with cash so take a short term hit but come out on top in the long run, and several other things. Now if we could only get those POS bureaucrats out of Congress.

:okashii:

People these days are accustomed to making their political decisions based on what they see on TV, hear snippets on the news about, etc. Iran never had any nuclear weapons and this has been proven, but prior to that report if you asked the average 'informed' American they would have sworn Iran was the greatest threat to the US ever, to no fault of their own.

First of all, that report has been ripped to shreds in the past few weeks here, and for the most part been proved false due to its sources. The media just loves to jump the gun due to political motivations. People are watching the news and reading the paper less and less here. Meanwhile, conservative talk radio is at an all time high in listenership, and people are using the internet more to find out both sides of the story.

Granted the average American may not be as 'informed' as many would hope, but they certainly don't blindly believe what the media and or our government has been spouting. If anything the average 'informed' American when stopped on the street would tell you that they just want the war in the Middle East won and over with. Nobody really cares about Iran, and nobody really cares about Iraq either. If anything, Americans are more concerned about China and Europe than anything else. Then again, we're just an ignorant people who are too gullible to think for ourselves as you so finely put it, so why bother trying to convince you otherwise?

:sick:

[centrajapan]

Concidering what USA has done to countries like Iraq, Iran it is ignorant in not caring what they have done.

[Doc]

Concidering what USA has done to countries like Iraq, Iran it is ignorant in not caring what they have done.

Iran is actually pro-American which surprises me. I guess they hate having a theocracy that much, at least among the young population in the nation anyway.

[centrajapan]

Iran is actually pro-American which surprises me. I guess they hate having a theocracy that much, at least among the young population in the nation anyway.

What do you mean Iran is pro American. I don´t understand this terminology. Being against theocracy does not make you pro American.　

[Uncle Frank]

Pro-American....pro-freedom.....pro-democracy....anti-evil....all the same.

Uncle Frank

:blush:

[bakaKanadajin]

Free trade is a tricky issue that would take up too much time for me to discuss in a single post. It would be much better if it was in its own separate topic. It is a double-edged sword of sorts that people fail to recognize. Neo-cons are too stupid to realize the principles needed to make such a system work effectively, but then again when your own pockets and political life is on the line, who expects you to actually care?


I disagree, neo-cons are the main perpetrators of free trade and open border trade policies. The less regulations and barriers to trade the easier it is by extension for the West to continue its way of life and extract resources and product from foreign economies, as well as procure cheap labour. I'd say it is working effectively, as Canada and the US are headed towards unprecedented levels of economic integration with regards to border security and both are already benefitting from cheap Mexican labour. By benefitting I don't mean average small town families losing jobs because Chrysler shut down X number of factories, I mean the stockholders and shareholder seeing profit, whatever the means.


It isn't culture that I am talking about. It is about political discontent on sharing the resources. The issue of culture that any of the countries may have in relation to a partnership is Mexico, for reasons I am sure you are already aware of.


The average Canadian isn't worried about Mexicans unless Mexicans start arriving in mass numbers here and screwing with our way of life. I don't see any socio-cultural barriers to the integration theory. As for political discontent, relations between Canada and the US are their warmest in years. We're balls-deep in Afghanistan, working with the US on border security via SPP meetings, developing our oil sands and maritime offshore resources and ensuring US access to oil, etc.

The last step is to add fresh water to the free-trade equation so the golf courses in Arizona don't go under.


You are looking at it all on a macro level from what you heard in the global news. It is the micro level that is a major concern. Many of the EU nations are running into trouble trying to keep their socialist systems in place. Germany and France are two primary examples. Furthermore, the exploitation of the former Eastern Bloc countries and resources isn't doing the EU any favors either. As some Europeans on this forum have expressed on here, it has created a disdain for the EU, and the goals it is trying to achieve. The only reason why so many countries are trying to get on board is because of the money the EU is promising for their resources. The problem is the EU spends more time making money off poor countries, than it does trying to fix the problems of its members to prevent any long term economical issues that could arise in an indefinite amount of time.

That is what I meant by weakened. It has nothing to do with the NATO, or anything like that. I am only talking politics and economics here. Although you did prove my point that people are putting too much stock into the EU right now. Sure everything looks rosy, but that can turn around in the next decade.



I can definitely appreciate this. Poor and have-not provinces in Canada also fight with the federal government over surplus sharing and equality. I'd imagine it's much the same in the EU. Again, is it in the best interest of these countries to side with the Russians again and risk political and global alienation, not to mention exit one of the worlds largest free trade zones? Or should they stay with the sweeter deal which is the prospect of eventually improving their economy and benefiting from the protection of NATO?

Within the scope of politics and economics, I just don't see a break up of the EU benefitting anyone in the short term. It's not a vote for the EU so much as it's an arrangement of convenience and a vote against taking a step backwards. Even poor countries like Romania have seen their GDP increase since joining the EU.


Asleep at the wheel? Depends on the issue. Borders, economics, and political unrest are such issues where people are not asleep at the wheel. If this were the case then there would not be such a cult following for Ron Paul right now. Once again, you are just going by what you hear on the television. By and large Americans are getting tired of all the BS that has been spouted out lately. They just want stuff done, no questions asked. To think nobody cares is silly, and to further think that people will always be willing to be fooled into a complete governmental take over is short-sided too. All I am saying is don't underestimate people. All you need is a few key people to turn the situation around. Therefore, stop making it out to be like big brother will always win. Eventually big brother usually gets his throat cut. It just depends on when that moment will happen. Will it be when our civil liberties are completely taken away, or before that will happen? Only time will tell.


I would agree with you here. I think there is definitely a rising chorus of discontent in America because of the every-day impact these policies. There was also a lot of protest when Bush stole the election in 2000 but that didn't stop things. There was a lot of hand wringing before you went to war both in Afghanistan and Iraq, both missions were failures unless you include the contracts given to Haliburton and the positioning of US bases so close to Iran. Point is, I don't think the discontent is having an impact. It is good to know it exists though.

Ultimately the scales haven't tipped yet though.


Actually, the FED is about the only organization that does their job in this country. If there is anybody that is being passive on the issue it is the federal government. Look at it this way: The FED is the board of directors to the corporation known as America. While their job only requires them to keep their shareholders happy (the American people), they really do nothing much except put policies in place to make sure the corporation keeps running (while partying on their yahts). It is the middle management (federal government) who does most of the decision making down on the food chain, and tells the workers (businesses and banks) what to do. However, when the middle management starts to pocket the funds for themselves and make foolish decisions, a finger pointing game begins on who is responsible. It is then up to the board of directors to set plans into place to help cut the losses, but also keep the shareholders invested into the corporation.

That is how it works. The FED does nothing more than help keep things in line when the federal government decides to dick things up. The FED has tried to pass several measures to keep things running smoothly, but the federal government is screwing around trying to fill their own pockets. Trust me, the last thing the central banks here want to be is passive. Their money is on the line, and when you have irresponsible bureaucrats in a large group messing everything up, it is about time to have a change. Of course that change does not entail a NAU. The losses would be even greater in the long term than they are now. The FED has recommended several measures lately including ending the Bush tax cuts, raising middle class income, bailing people out in the housing market with cash so take a short term hit but come out on top in the long run, and several other things. Now if we could only get those POS bureaucrats out of Congress.

If the FED operates the way you say it does then that would make sense, keep the economy afloat while the real money lenders and power holders, aka the central banks and corporations, are filling their pockets and ensuring the spoils of the wars they started go back to American companies.

Since the central banks and money lenders are borderless, it's not outside the scope of possibility and reason to assume that regardless of the impact on the American economy, what nets them the most global profit overall won't still be done. Playing with lending rates, introducing liquidity into the market, cleaning up the credit crisis; all designed to keep the average American afloat. But ultimately, if an integration of currency and borders is the only solution, you do it. There are two choices, bubble pops, or stuff even more gum in your mouth. This won't happen tomorrow, but it will eventually happen. The EU didn't happen overnight either.



First of all, that report has been ripped to shreds in the past few weeks here, and for the most part been proved false due to its sources. The media just loves to jump the gun due to political motivations. People are watching the news and reading the paper less and less here. Meanwhile, conservative talk radio is at an all time high in listenership, and people are using the internet more to find out both sides of the story.

Granted the average American may not be as 'informed' as many would hope, but they certainly don't blindly believe what the media and or our government has been spouting. If anything the average 'informed' American when stopped on the street would tell you that they just want the war in the Middle East won and over with. Nobody really cares about Iran, and nobody really cares about Iraq either. If anything, Americans are more concerned about China and Europe than anything else. Then again, we're just an ignorant people who are too gullible to think for ourselves as you so finely put it, so why bother trying to convince you otherwise?



I don't remember saying you're too gullible to think for yourselves, I do think I alluded to the fact that you don't generally have the right tools and information to do that with. It's not a lack of capacity but a lack of resources. Anyone can see the difference in reporting style, content, level of censorship and corruption in media outlets like Fox and CNN (the most popular ones) compared to newscasts like the British BBC, Canadian CBC, and so on. You can't really blame the average American for thinking Saddam had WMD and was a member of Al Quaeda, for 3 months before Iraq that's all they were told. Did the major media outlets investigate that and find out whether it was true or not before reporting it? Or at least offer opposing views of reasonable strength to balance the reporting? Or were they just passing the Bush administrations assurances along as biblical truth?

[Doc]

What do you mean Iran is pro American. I don´t understand this terminology. Being against theocracy does not make you pro American.　

Allow me to elaborate. The majority of Iranian youth would like for their country to have a government and lifestyle similar if not exactly like the United States. Did you know that during football games (soccer in the States) that instead of waving their own flag, Iranians wave the American flag instead? It's true. That is what I meant by being pro-American. It really surprises me too considering that everybody else in the world hates us.

-Doc:wave:

[centrajapan]

Pro-American....pro-freedom.....pro-democracy....anti-evil....all the same.

This might be true for you but not everyone. I doubt one who got his house bombed to pieces killing family members think of pro American as anti evil.

[centrajapan]

Allow me to elaborate. The majority of Iranian youth would like for their country to have a government and lifestyle similar if not exactly like the United States. Did you know that during football games (soccer in the States) that instead of waving their own flag, Iranians wave the American flag instead? It's true. That is what I meant by being pro-American. It really surprises me too considering that everybody else in the world hates us.

The reason why the world hates US if we are to use your words is because US goes around killing people. For instance during the Iran-Iraq war one million people died. US was feeding Saddam to bomb Iran. Kids who grew up during the Iraq-Iran war get traumatised when sirens go off because the town you live in is about to get bombed. Before that the CIA together with UK orchestrtaed a coup to install the Shah. The US Embassy was used as a place to interrigate and torture people who opposed the Shah. That is why there was the hostage cricis in the US Embassy in Iran.

While I do agree that many people in Iran are against theocracy. And many say that it is worse than the Shah who overthrew the democratic elected leader Mohammad Mossadegh.

Had it not been for the coup in the 50s I am sure Iran would be very different than it is today. The irnoy of it all is that back then it was about oil too. Mossadegh wanted to nationalise the oil wells which the Multi Nationals thought was a very bad idea. The irony of it is that many of the same companies in Iran in the 50s are playing a vital role in todays Iraq.

[Doc]

I disagree, neo-cons are the main perpetrators of free trade and open border trade policies. The less regulations and barriers to trade the easier it is by extension for the West to continue its way of life and extract resources and product from foreign economies, as well as procure cheap labour. I'd say it is working effectively, as Canada and the US are headed towards unprecedented levels of economic integration with regards to border security and both are already benefitting from cheap Mexican labour. By benefitting I don't mean average small town families losing jobs because Chrysler shut down X number of factories, I mean the stockholders and shareholder seeing profit, whatever the means.

So you are for free trade? I can see now where we are having a disagreement on. Free trade is a good thing, to a certain extent. Getting rid of jobs that nobody does, or is outdated is good because it opens up new jobs, and expands the economy. However, when you have over 50% of your production made in China, that is when things get very hairy really quick. Not only does it cause problems in the long term for a free market economy, but it literally puts some countries in a bind. It is ridiculous that the US has been practicing this method for the past decade. It will literally be the death of us. All we have left now is buying power, and soon that will be on the auction block as well. We have let the corporations have too much freedom, and that is not a good thing. It doesn't make a better economy or better capitalism, it only leads to anarchy and chaos in the long term. Free trade is good, but it needs to be limited. Otherwise, the Western way of life won't last much longer.

The average Canadian isn't worried about Mexicans unless Mexicans start arriving in mass numbers here and screwing with our way of life. I don't see any socio-cultural barriers to the integration theory. As for political discontent, relations between Canada and the US are their warmest in years. We're balls-deep in Afghanistan, working with the US on border security via SPP meetings, developing our oil sands and maritime offshore resources and ensuring US access to oil, etc.

The last step is to add fresh water to the free-trade equation so the golf courses in Arizona don't go under.

Of course the Mexican issue is not your problem. It's our problem. We are already having a tough time paying for these people who don't pay back into the economy, and use up welfare like it is going out of style. Many hospitals, clinics, and the like have had to shut down in the border states because they can't take care of or fund the 37+ million illegals that are flooding into this country. It is already creating some racial tensions in some parts of the country. If we had a NAU, it would give Mexico an even bigger excuse to turn our country into a bread line, which would extend the problem all over the place in the US, and not just primarily in the border states.

As for your comments on relations between Canada and the US, they are warm for the most part. Still, there are quite a few people who don't like us, and if issues arose over resources it could cause problems later on down the road. You obviously feel that there will be no problems, but I disagree. Our government isn't the best at sharing power, and I am pretty sure Congress will try to start anything to line their pockets with cash with Canada, as I'm sure the Canadian government will do the same. What is a good partnership, could turn sour in the long haul. It just depends on how well two bureaucracies are willing to work together. Furthermore, there have been statements made that the UN would love to play the mediator in this partnerships which would cause even more problems. If anything, the word of the UN should never be trusted. This should bring some concern to people regardless of whether they play a role or not. You don't know what the final construction of the partnership would be like, so don't play it off like you do. It would be worse off than you think (which is kind of what Pachipro was hinting at with his conspiracy theories).

I can definitely appreciate this. Poor and have-not provinces in Canada also fight with the federal government over surplus sharing and equality. I'd imagine it's much the same in the EU. Again, is it in the best interest of these countries to side with the Russians again and risk political and global alienation, not to mention exit one of the worlds largest free trade zones? Or should they stay with the sweeter deal which is the prospect of eventually improving their economy and benefiting from the protection of NATO?

Within the scope of politics and economics, I just don't see a break up of the EU benefitting anyone in the short term. It's not a vote for the EU so much as it's an arrangement of convenience and a vote against taking a step backwards. Even poor countries like Romania have seen their GDP increase since joining the EU.

Yes, but the industrialized nations are the ones in trouble. Low birth rate, gap between the young and old, massive influx of immigrants both illegal and legal who have been disenfranchised, high welfare costs, paying for the former Eastern Bloc nations, the list goes on and on. There are just too many problems the main players have that are not being addressed. Since each country's economy is locked into the EU as a whole this can cause disastrous problems in the long term. I agree that the people should take the EU deal over being a part of Russian again, but unless these pressing issues are addressed, the bad will eventually outweigh the good. I don't believe in a break up, I'm just saying that you can't put these things off. So what if France has its own independent power source. It doesn't mean anything if they can't afford it in ten years. That's why I keep saying don't put all your eggs in one basket with the Euro. It could out like the US dollar later on.

As for NATO for protection, I wouldn't hedge my bets on them too much. Hell most of the nations involved teach their individual militaries in "peace keeping" and "administrative" roles over national defense. It really shows with the ones involved in the war in the Middle East too. I'd rather put my money on outside militaries like yours and our over the French. I'm just saying.

I would agree with you here. I think there is definitely a rising chorus of discontent in America because of the every-day impact these policies. There was also a lot of protest when Bush stole the election in 2000 but that didn't stop things. There was a lot of hand wringing before you went to war both in Afghanistan and Iraq, both missions were failures unless you include the contracts given to Haliburton and the positioning of US bases so close to Iran. Point is, I don't think the discontent is having an impact. It is good to know it exists though.

Afghanistan and Iraq were failures? Excuse me, but neither war is over with yet. Come back to me in 30 years, and then we'll discuss why they were failures or not. Actually the impact is pretty noticeable. People are starting to put actions into their own hands, especially down on the border states with all the illegals. Furthermore, people are becoming increasingly aware of the world here, and are demanding answers on getting stuff done. As for the private contractors, people are also calling those into question as well. With investigations underway, Americans day by day are getting a different picture of the wars in the Middle East compared to what Congress and CNN have been painting. The mentality of the wars here in the States are like this: win the war and lets go home. That's it. In other words, let the military do their damn job, put a stable government in place (which doesn't have to be some representative republic), and get the hell out of dodge. Only time will tell whether or not this thing will be a quagmire or not.

Ultimately the scales haven't tipped yet though.

Wait until after the presidential elections of '08, and then we'll discuss this further.

If the FED operates the way you say it does then that would make sense, keep the economy afloat while the real money lenders and power holders, aka the central banks and corporations, are filling their pockets and ensuring the spoils of the wars they started go back to American companies.

Since the central banks and money lenders are borderless, it's not outside the scope of possibility and reason to assume that regardless of the impact on the American economy, what nets them the most global profit overall won't still be done. Playing with lending rates, introducing liquidity into the market, cleaning up the credit crisis; all designed to keep the average American afloat. But ultimately, if an integration of currency and borders is the only solution, you do it. There are two choices, bubble pops, or stuff even more gum in your mouth. This won't happen tomorrow, but it will eventually happen. The EU didn't happen overnight either.

Actually, the reason why things are happening the way they are is because for almost the past two decades the US was on deflation due to the collapse of the USSR. However, with over half of our production of goods being made in China and the emergence again of Russia, things are starting to wind down. Their isn't a need for a NAU, nor is their a desire to have one. Furthermore, the FED concentrates on the US economy and its dealings, not the global. Furthermore, the FED has a leash around the central banks too. There are lending rules that the central banks in this country must abide by, or risk losing their profits. The reason why the US hasn't gone under despite things that should have made it do so years ago was due to the FED. Greenspan and the people after him are about the only ones who give a crap about keeping our country in one piece. After all, their money is on the line too.

As for a legal tender, the US Government is the only entity that can regulate it. The FED is nothing more than a quasi-governmental corporation that regulates the buying and selling of US investments, and keep the economy in check. Since both groups go hand and hand so well with one another, it is hard to see a NAU happening even if that was the only option to some. The FED has too many security checks and self-interests in the US to do it.

I don't remember saying you're too gullible to think for yourselves, I do think I alluded to the fact that you don't generally have the right tools and information to do that with. It's not a lack of capacity but a lack of resources. Anyone can see the difference in reporting style, content, level of censorship and corruption in media outlets like Fox and CNN (the most popular ones) compared to newscasts like the British BBC, Canadian CBC, and so on. You can't really blame the average American for thinking Saddam had WMD and was a member of Al Quaeda, for 3 months before Iraq that's all they were told. Did the major media outlets investigate that and find out whether it was true or not before reporting it? Or at least offer opposing views of reasonable strength to balance the reporting? Or were they just passing the Bush administrations assurances along as biblical truth?

Actually, the average American citizen didn't know what to think before the wars. 9/11 happened and all we wanted was the morons in the government to pay for their mistake of letting it happen, and to take out Bin Laden. Everything after that point was too dizzying, and now we are where we are. Because of that, Americans just want to win the war and have our troops come home. One thing is for certain, a Western collation entity is needed in that region due to Pakistan and its nukes, and all the oil interests as well. I'm sure if we weren't over their right now, things would still be heating up at the same rate, if not worse.

The reason why the world hates US if we are to use your words is because US goes around killing people. For instance during the Iran-Iraq war one million people died. US was feeding Saddam to bomb Iran. Kids who grew up during the Iraq-Iran war get traumatised when sirens go off because the town you live in is about to get bombed. Before that the CIA together with UK orchestrtaed a coup to install the Shah. The US Embassy was used as a place to interrigate and torture people who opposed the Shah. That is why there was the hostage cricis in the US Embassy in Iran.
While I do agree that many people in Iran are against theocracy. And many say that it is worse than the Shah who overthrew the democratic elected leader Mohammad Mossadegh.
Had it not been for the coup in the 50s I am sure Iran would be very different than it is today. The irnoy of it all is that back then it was about oil too. Mossadegh wanted to nationalise the oil wells which the Multi Nationals thought was a very bad idea. The irony of it is that many of the same companies in Iran in the 50s are playing a vital role in todays Iraq.

1. Indiscriminate fire is a part of war. It will always be a part of war. Whether you like it or not, innocent people die in wars. Furthermore, our track record for innocents/terrorist being killed ratio is better than it was in WWII. Since WWII less and less innocents are dying in wars that the US are in. Why? It is because we train our troops better and better. Did you know a soldier in Iraq can't fire his rifle off without filing paperwork before and afterward. It's true. The US military likes to keep accurate records of their soldiers to prevent mass accidents of friend fire from happening. BTW all those stistics are crap. They have been proven to be trumped up since day one because of the methods people use to get them.

2. There is more to the Iran picture from the 1950's than you know. There were other factors and political interests involved during that time, but that was the past and this is the present. It is time to look toward the future instead.

-Doc :wave:

[centrajapan]

Afghanistan and Iraq were failures? Excuse me, but neither war is over with yet. Come back to me in 30 years, and then we'll discuss why they were failures or not.

It all depends how you look at it. If you work in the contractor business this war is not a failure. There is profit. If most Iraqis are happy with the US presence then it is a victory for everyone. Invading a sovereign nation based on lies is a pretty stupid thing to do. I tend to look more from a motive perspective. Why was this war a good idea? I think it was a good idea because of natural resources and geopolitical interests.

Actually, the average American citizen didn't know what to think before the wars. 9/11 happened and all we wanted was the morons in the government to pay for their mistake of letting it happen, and to take out Bin Laden

I think it is in the interest of US not to catch bin Laden. To have some sort of a mythtical figure an escape goat a reminder why US is in Iraq or Afghanistan.

[Doc]

It all depends how you look at it. If you work in the contractor business this war is not a failure. There is profit. If most Iraqis are happy with the US presence then it is a victory for everyone. Invading a sovereign nation based on lies is a pretty stupid thing to do. I tend to look more from a motive perspective. Why was this war a good idea? I think it was a good idea because of natural resources and geopolitical interests.
I think it is in the interest of US not to catch bin Laden. To have some sort of a mythtical figure an escape goat a reminder why US is in Iraq or Afghanistan.

You don't know what the motivations are right now. All you are doing is going on pure speculation and guess work. The same was true for those against Vietnam. Only thirty years later did we find out the real truths of Vietnam, which would make even you take back most of what you keep saying bad about the US.

As for Bin Laden, the CIA wanted the guy's head on a stick. It was the bureaucrats would screwed it up. There is no one to blame but them.

[centrajapan]

Why would a country go to war and hide their motivations in the first place?

[Doc]

Politics are just not your bag are they?

[centrajapan]

Politics are just not your bag are they?

Please speak English and not American slang. What do you mean by politics then?

[Doc]

What I mean is that going into direct detail of all points of view on both politics and history is not your strong point.

[centrajapan]

Please enlighten me for the motives of war because I seem to not understand something here.

[Mavrek]

Yes I believe that the America is a greatest threat to world peace. I always saw America on assault for one reason or the other reason.The up going war under the name of war on terrorism is the example to prove my point.

[centrajapan]

It is difficult to understand why USA is at war. I thought it was to catch bin Laden yet bin Laden is a free man in Pakistan in a country which is run by a millitary dictator sponsored by USA. Musharraf btw over threw a democratic elected government.

Buttho got assasinated recently. US is also responsible here. US is interferring with internal Pakistani affairs which polarizes the people in Pakistan.

[bakaKanadajin]

Afghanistan and Iraq were failures? Excuse me, but neither war is over with yet. Come back to me in 30 years, and then we'll discuss why they were failures or not.

Afghanistan was a failure back in the 70's despite the fact that the Soviets had to high-tail it out of there. The reason I say this is because your own Taliban, the people the US installed afterwards and were, up until recently, in bed with regarding oil development, (or may still be in bed with, who knows what level of orchestration and collusion takes place in order to keep the oil flowing) are now your main enemies in the region. Opium production hasn't ceased, drugs are flowing into America, in all but a few small areas my understanding is that most of the advances made immediately after the 'liberation' of Afghanistan re: status of women, lack of education, alleviating strict fundamentalist Islamic rule, etc., all these problems have gradually crept back into the daily lives of the people of Afghanistan. Now NATO countries are there trying to clean up the mess and keep the peace. If any progress is made it won't be from the military intervention there by the US following 9/11, it will be from the efforts of the international community to send aid and peace-keepers there.

If by success you're referring to the security of the pipeline, infrastructure rebuilding contracts to Haliburton, keeping the modern industrial warfare machine running, and the cat-and-mouse game of oil procurement vs. Russia, yes you are ultimately succeeding.

[tokapi]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm


*Here's an excerpt from the above link: World Wide Military Expenditures

Country Military expenditures - Dollar figure - Budget Period

United States - $623 billion - FY08 budget
China - $65.0 billion - 2004
Russia - $50.0 billion
France - $45.0 billion - 2005
United Kingdom - $42.8 billion - 2005 est.
Japan - $41.75 billion - 2007
Germany - $35.1 billion - 2003
Italy - $28.2 billion - 2003
South Korea - $21.1 billion - 2003 est.


This might prove to be an interesting editorial as well.Written by Kathy Roth-Douquet who served in the Clinton White House and Department of Defense.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/09/what-is-us-mili.html

[centrajapan]

Its rather shocking that US can use that much money on the millitary and can't even stop a commercial airliner or catch Bin Laden. Now they are at war and don't even want to tell the reasons to why they are at war. I don't think the US government is that stupid I give them the benefit of the doubt so I think they were a part of this whole scheme. Bush is not a part of it as he is too stupid.

Ron Paul seems to get the right idea. You should not threaten and bomb countries and kill people but rather talk with countries and engage in trade and what not.

Benazir Bhutto's assasination and the riots which is going on in Pakistan. This will be yet one of those Kennedy like conspiracy theories. However it seems by the looks of things that Musharraf will benefit most from this assasination. A millitary dictator sponsored by USA.

[Sarapva]

Its rather shocking that US can use that much money on the millitary and can't even stop a commercial airliner or catch Bin Laden.

I actually agree with you here, centrajapan. It's also shocking that there are still people in Louisiana and Mississippi who don't have homes after Hurricane Katrina went through 2 years ago. I have a cousin in Mississippi who has just moved into a new house after living in a FEMA (Federal Emergency Aid - not sure if that's the right title) trailer for 2 years. That our government would spend so much money on the military and not for its own people is just disgusting.

[scorpion da black]

this is the human rights the USA claim to protect!!

i always knew that the US had many bad aspects in so many activities it does...
but i was never able to put it in words like you did.
thank you all for strengthening my believe that the US government is the devil :p

[centrajapan]

The US government is using alot more money on the war in Iraq than fixing the devistating damages from Hurrican Katrina. Their priorities are turned completely upside down. Here is US infesting the Middle East and not taking care of its citizens back home. It is outrageous. While the weapon manufacturers, oil companies. Companies with close ties to the White House is cashing in from the profits of the war. Its sickening.It reeks.

Speaking of FEMA. The FEMA investigation of 9-11 is a nice piece of comedy.

Right after 9-11. The government instead of taking the steel material and investigating it. They cleaned the mess up and shipped the steel away.They destroyed any kind of evidence. There has never been a proper independent investigation of 9-11. None.

On 9-11. You have WTC 1&2. But then there was also WTC 7. It collapsed. And it did not get hit by an airplane.

http://911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/wtc7_collapse2.mpg

Look for yourself.

One of the arguments against the conspiracy theory is that if it was a conspiracy theory could not US have fabricated an another lie that they found WMD? Or maybe because US was responsible for 9-11 the US government did not have the guts to pull off yet an another lie being afraid that it would blow their cover up completely.

I am also very apalled that not more president candidates in US are willing to pull the troops out of Iraq. Ron Paul seems to be the only person willing to pull the troops out of Iraq ASAP.

I liked how he said. How would Americans feel if the Chinese started building millitary bases on American soil? Thats what US is doing in Iraq now. They are building permanent millitary bases despite the fact that US invaded a souverign nation based on reasons later to be found out to be false.

[kairu]

There is definitely a disconnect between what many Americans believe and support and the actions of our government. But the government changes every few years, and that time for change is--thankfully--approaching!

I agree that we need to pull out of Iraq. We should never have entered in the first place, or, even if we did, at least not in the way that we did. However, pulling out ASAP after everything that has happened because of US presence probably wouldn't be the best idea, either, as it would be as if we entered, turned everything upside down, and then left a huge mess behind. We need a few months to a year to get our act together and get out of there.

Thankfully, all of the democratic candidates support leaving Iraq, I'm pretty sure. I think many of them want to focus on issues more toward home, too, such as environmental problems, health care, immigration, etc.

Basically what I mean by this is that if the US is currently the biggest threat for world peace (which I do not agree with anyway, because the US is a collection of states which are inhabited by people, and every person has his or her own ideas), then I hope that, with new leadership, that will change.

=)

[Doc]

Afghanistan was a failure back in the 70's despite the fact that the Soviets had to high-tail it out of there. The reason I say this is because your own Taliban, the people the US installed afterwards and were, up until recently, in bed with regarding oil development, (or may still be in bed with, who knows what level of orchestration and collusion takes place in order to keep the oil flowing) are now your main enemies in the region. Opium production hasn't ceased, drugs are flowing into America, in all but a few small areas my understanding is that most of the advances made immediately after the 'liberation' of Afghanistan re: status of women, lack of education, alleviating strict fundamentalist Islamic rule, etc., all these problems have gradually crept back into the daily lives of the people of Afghanistan. Now NATO countries are there trying to clean up the mess and keep the peace. If any progress is made it won't be from the military intervention there by the US following 9/11, it will be from the efforts of the international community to send aid and peace-keepers there.

There is one fatal flaw to your argument: our government hasn't received any of the oil, nor have has it gained any benefit from it. Furthermore, the US wasn't the only ones who were in bed with causing all the problems in Afghanistan. Pakistan was a partner of the Taliban as well, in a goal to eventually have Afghanistan be a part of Taliban. Who knows what would have happened if such actions came to fruition. It isn't just a US mess, its an international community mess as many people had stakes in the game during that time. Only now has it come back and bit everybody in the ***. That is one thing that I think the Western world will never understand, never negotiate with the so called "lesser of two evils", it'll come back to haunt you.

You can't expect aid and peace keepers to do all the work in fixing things. The biggest factor is the will of the people. Considering that it is a cultural and political issue and not a religious one, it will take quite a while before anything is in the positive. I would much rather have a just a stable government in that region than experimental democracies. It is only when the people themselves feel they are ready for such changes should international aid intervene.

this is the human rights the USA claim to protect!!

i always knew that the US had many bad aspects in so many activities it does...
but i was never able to put it in words like you did.
thank you all for strengthening my believe that the US government is the devil :p

Yes, well I find every single government in the Middle East, Western Europe, and the politicians in our Congress collectively to be the devil, so we're even on that one.

I actually agree with you here, centrajapan. It's also shocking that there are still people in Louisiana and Mississippi who don't have homes after Hurricane Katrina went through 2 years ago. I have a cousin in Mississippi who has just moved into a new house after living in a FEMA (Federal Emergency Aid - not sure if that's the right title) trailer for 2 years. That our government would spend so much money on the military and not for its own people is just disgusting.

The federal government is not to blame on the issue rather the state and local governments who where repeatedly warned for fifteen years to do something in case an event like Katrina happened. To think otherwise is foolish. The federal government was never designed and should never be used as a tool to take care of such issues. That is the job of the states and local governments alone. The federal government's job is only to create a legal tender, provide national security, and to keep the county together through political and judicial means. The fact that we think we deserve and expect more only helps feed the monster. You complain that the government doesn't help when it should, yet you complain when it does too much. You can't have it both ways. Which do you prefer: a small federal government, or a massive bureaucracy? Either way, there are consequences to be had, especially in today's world.

There is definitely a disconnect between what many Americans believe and support and the actions of our government. But the government changes every few years, and that time for change is--thankfully--approaching!

I agree that we need to pull out of Iraq. We should never have entered in the first place, or, even if we did, at least not in the way that we did. However, pulling out ASAP after everything that has happened because of US presence probably wouldn't be the best idea, either, as it would be as if we entered, turned everything upside down, and then left a huge mess behind. We need a few months to a year to get our act together and get out of there.

Thankfully, all of the democratic candidates support leaving Iraq, I'm pretty sure. I think many of them want to focus on issues more toward home, too, such as environmental problems, health care, immigration, etc.

Basically what I mean by this is that if the US is currently the biggest threat for world peace (which I do not agree with anyway, because the US is a collection of states which are inhabited by people, and every person has his or her own ideas), then I hope that, with new leadership, that will change.

=)

I hate to break it to you, but there is no difference between the two. Both parties want the American people to abide by their ideas, and both parties will rip the American people off no matter what, whether it be through high taxes, increased spending, etc.

I'd rather have Ron Paul in office than a Democrat. All those progressives want to do is tax the middle class into oblivion to fill their coffers on pork. They are no better than the neo-cons who are selling this country out to China.

Basically what I am getting at is if we are lucky, the best case scenario for the next four years will be the Carter years all over again (and that isn't very rosy either).

-Doc :wave:

[centrajapan]

Ah, yes. Oil. The reason for why US is not at war with Iraq. It was the WMDs.

Before the U.S. invasion of Iraq, U.S. oil companies were shut out of Iraq's oil industry. Since US has access to Saudi and Kuwait oil there isn't much of a problem but now they want to have access to the Iraq oil fields too.

As Iraq has alot of oil. USA's plan is to privatize as many oil fields as possible and make Iraq open to foreign investment. While many others in Iraq wants to nationalise the oil and keep foreign multi nationals out.

As for Afghanistan. I think the pipe line plays a vital role. Uncoal was the company who came with the plans to build the pipeline from the Caspian Sea through Afghanistan to Pakistan. Though a land locked country Afghanistan becomes important geo politically. The Bush family had stakes in Uncoal but many other countries do support this pipe line not to mention Japan, South Korea.

While I think Taliban is a brutal regime I do not think US really cared about Taliban's human right violations because they after all supported these people at one stage. They say the reason for why US invaded Afghanistan was to catch bin Laden yet now bin Laden is completely out of the picture and US is instead building bases in Afghanistan right by where the pipe line is.

If I was American I'd vote Republican this time because of Ron Paul. I hope he wins but it looks doubtful.

[scorpion da black]

Doc san i agree with your comment about governments in the middle east ...
however these governments control third world countries...incapable of making any bad to humanity in large (except for their people) ...BUT the US can effect every country in the world and cause misfortune to every corner of the earth...
so i guess "the capable devil aka the US is more dangerous to world peace than a retarded devil aka middle eastern governments "

[kairu]

I'd rather have Ron Paul in office than a Democrat.

Whomever you or I support, and whoever wins, I just hope that person is better than our current administration. And that's not to say that some good things haven't happened due to the efforts of those in office right now... it just seems to me that a whole lot of bad has resulted, as well.

[Doc]

Doc san i agree with your comment about governments in the middle east ...
however these governments control third world countries...incapable of making any bad to humanity in large (except for their people) ...BUT the US can effect every country in the world and cause misfortune to every corner of the earth...
so i guess "the capable devil aka the US is more dangerous to world peace than a retarded devil aka middle eastern governments "

So can the EU, China, and Russia on world manipulation. In other words, the US isn't the only capable devil in the world today. As for the retarded devils, they still need to be dealt with for they can cause serious problems in the long term.

-Doc :wave:

[Derfel]

Yes but the retarded devils don't really know their place, they think they can fly with their puny wings, but thats not the case, since they haven't a clue about aerial regulations and laws, they tend to go over allies and business partners of the capable devil, and crap on them, they deny it, they say the brown material isn't theirs, but its obvious. They even had a go at the capable devil, but he kicked them in the face, yet they didn't learn a thing.

[Sarapva]

The federal government is not to blame on the issue rather the state and local governments who where repeatedly warned for fifteen years to do something in case an event like Katrina happened.

I'm sure the state and local governments could also have done more in preparation for something like that, but it still seems that something isn't right when more federal money goes to weapons to kill people instead of in helping people in a disaster.

[Doc]

Actually, that money isn't going toward weapons to kill people, rather it is used on pork barrel projects so some schmuck of a senator can get a new yacht.

-Doc :wave:

[scorpion da black]

i agree all devils should be dealt with...

but who is to decide who will do the job...
the capable devil already took out a retarded devil...seems like it made more havoc to me...

i guess the capable devil should be dealt with first.

[Derfel]

i guess the capable devil should be dealt with first.

Feel free to try, although "Who dares wins!" doesn't apply this time.
The USA's ok, they supply the world with cheap mid-quality goods, one has to love the dollar conversion rate.

[scorpion da black]

every one loves greens derfel san :p

[Sarapva]

Actually, that money isn't going toward weapons to kill people, rather it is used on pork barrel projects so some schmuck of a senator can get a new yacht.
-Doc :wave:

Yeah, that too - a senator is relaxing on his yacht while hundreds of people in Mississippi and Louisiana are living in shelters or trailers. And it's us, the American people, who pay for it with our tax money. Something's not right here ..........

[Hezam]

We Need to correct the errors between us,that's what we need now,Not to talk about the Crimes and the past ...

I am sure if we meet each other we will make better than the Stuped Governments....

Arabs hate their Government and Americans hate their Government so we can leave both governments and take togither PPL with PPL ...

I hope to see a good world in the future ...

best wishes
Hezam

[Derfel]

Arabs hate their Government and Americans hate their Government so we can leave both governments and take togither PPL with PPL ...

No way, you can't, im training to be a rotten politician if things go well, I need people have them pay for my yacht.

[centrajapan]

Many people believe that if US leaves Iraq, Iraq will turn into a blood bath far worse than it is today. But I believe the opposite. I think the US presence is what triggers the violence. This is also what Ron Paul is saying. By having a foreign occupation what this does is not to unify people but it has an opposite effect.

How the oil should be distributed should be up to Iraqis to decide. It makes it harder for Iraqis to decide when the country is under occupation.

The American dollar is getting weaker for each day. The American economy is hurting due to all the billions of dollars which are taken from the US tax payer into this stupid war in Iraq. The US government is screwing the Americn people. Impeach Bush. He deserves to get fried.

[Derfel]

The American dollar is getting weaker for each day.

That is intentional tbh. With the dollar down in the gutter the conversion rates are awesome so American goods sell well on foreign markets.

[Sarapva]

We Need to correct the errors between us,that's what we need now,Not to talk about the Crimes and the past ...
I am sure if we meet each other we will make better than the Stuped Governments....
Arabs hate their Government and Americans hate their Government so we can leave both governments and take togither PPL with PPL ...
I hope to see a good world in the future ...
best wishes
Hezam

Yes, thanks, Carlos. This is how we can "bypass" our governments and make a better world.

posted by centrajapan:

Impeach Bush.

This has already been tried. What's so completely ridiculous is that Clinton was impeached because of an affair he said he didn't have. It makes us look like idiots when we impeach a president who had an affair, but not one who starts an illegal war and okays torture and so many other things.

[centrajapan]

Clinton should just have said. I inhailed and I had sex so what? But I guess he got burnt because of it but what Bush has done is so much worse. I think I need to look up the word logic. I just don't get it.

[centrajapan]

This is a good Bush documentary. The Bush family is a dynasty.

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-8187301869971500776

[centrajapan]

CIA documentary. The documentary interviews many CIA agents and they tell about the crimes they committed.

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-8085945499556832271

[Derfel]

video.google.com
A very trustworthy source indeed.

[centrajapan]

Look at who made the movies and not the url. Google is trust worthy though.

[Doc]

Not hardly. Besides, China is the bigger threat to world peace than our own government(as distasteful as it can be at times).

-Doc :wave:

[scorpion da black]

i don't see china shoving its nose in every nation's internal affairs and invading this waging war on that ...claiming some country has weapons of mass destruction just to use it as an excuse to ruin a nation and kill almost a million soul.

i don't see china using veto on every God damn UN resolution against Israel.
and i don't see china being bias to one side and not the other....i don't see china treating others with double standards.

well what do you know i see the US doing so

[Doc]

There is always two sides to the story, so stop giving just one side. As a matter of fact, you have proven to be just as ignorant in such matters as much as the rest of the world is on each respective human culture, society, and government. If you want me to take you seriously, then provide some information that is on the other side of the story, not just on your side. Only then can we work together for an agreement.

-Doc :wave:

[scorpion da black]

Oh yes, the big bad Jewish people. If they were just wiped off the face of the Earth, the Middle East would all be good. Yes, if the Middle East and the rest of the world for that matter was all one giant Islamic state, everything will be good.

do not try to make me say what i didn't say..and do not try to make my words look bad ...
i never said that the world should be Islamic.but for those parts of the world that are Islamic we appreciate no Invasion...no occupation...

and i i must have said that a million times : we are not against Jews..we are against Invaders...once it was crusaders (Christians) ..now it is Zionists (Jews..once it was Mongols (pagans)
we have no problem with a religion sect...we have a problem with invaders...those who kill innocent people , bomb civilian areas and make life for the original people of the land a living hell.
the US used veto against every resolution made against Israel...that is unfair...it is not even related to any anti semitic crap

really man ..drop the anti-semitic argument it is not working...
coz obviously we are not anti-semitic...
we Arabs are semitic our selves, so are the Acadians, so are the Kaldanians...

what anti-semitism..naming us as Jew haters...

you just proved that we out done you with argument and all you can do is ridicule what we have to say with poor replies...which are meant to flame and pass judgment on us by calling us names..

really a cheap way of making a conversation.

[Doc]

do not try to make me say what i didn't say..and do not try to make my words look bad ...
i never said that the world should be Islamic.but for those parts of the world that are Islamic we appreciate no Invasion...no occupation...
and i i must have said that a million times : we are not against Jews..we are against Invaders...once it was crusaders (Christians) ..now it is Zionists (Jews..once it was Mongols (pagans)
we have no problem with a religion sect...we have a problem with invaders...those who kill innocent people , bomb civilian areas and make life for the original people of the land a living hell.
the US used veto against every resolution made against Israel...that is unfair...it is not even related to any anti semitic crap
really man ..drop the anti-semitic argument it is not working...
coz obviously we are not anti-semitic...
we Arabs are semitic our selves, so are the Acadians, so are the Kaldanians...
what anti-semitism..naming us as Jew haters...
you just proved that we out done you with argument and all you can do is ridicule what we have to say with poor replies...which are meant to flame and pass judgment on us by calling us names..
really a cheap way of making a conversation.


I would like to know how the Zionists are invaders. Enlighten me. BTW, my previous comment wasn't meant as a flame or a cheap jab. I am just getting sick and tired of you going on and on about the evil US government, the evil Isreali government, and anybody else that isn't on your side with fallacies in every single one of your arguments. If you're going to wax intellectually on the subject, then by all means show both sides of the issue. Don't just sit there and expect me to believe that your words are set and stone, and that is that. That's not how intellectual debates are made.

-Doc :wave:

[Goldiegirl]

China just poisons us with their toxic products that we think we need. They have us all brainwashed into wanting cheap stuff and we all fell for it. They are a threat more than anyone else. They need the most resources, and thems that needs wants, and they have a lot of people to get what they want..not to mention they are expendable to the Chinese government!

[centrajapan]

I think US has done alot of stupid things in the past but I don't think they are the biggest threat to world peace. In a way they are because they have such a gigantic millitary and don't seem to want to stop pretending to be the police of the world while not taking respnsibility for the crimes they comit. Rather it is when the public become ignorant and get in a sheeple mind set and have too much faith in the government or get too apathetic so that they let the various government and authority do the thinking for you. When the government want to shift the anger and frustration of the public by finding escape goats then thats a threat to peace.

[Goldiegirl]

I think what many people fail to understand is this. The people of the USA can change the leadership of our country. We have a chance every 4 years. We can change what the USA does, we have to vote. Am I for the war in Iraq, no, Afganistan, no, but I didn't vote for the President that chose to take the USA to war. He will be gone, soon, he's finishing his last term. I find it amazing that people want to kill him so the USA will end the war. That is such nonsense, then you would have Cheney, who would continue the same. We can be a peaceful nation, we just have to get the right people in. The way to do that is to VOTE! The problem is people don't vote, then they complain. I can complain, I VOTED! I have never missed a vote on a president ever. We have a peaceful exchange of power every 4 (sometime 8) years, not many countries can claim that...

[centrajapan]

Bush is lower than scum. Most countries can elect their leaders too and they tend to have much better candidates than USA. Look at Bush. How can people vote this sicko not once but twice. This born again Christian alcoholic pchycopath.

Both Democrats and Republicans were in favour of the Iraq invasion. There was not much of a strong anti war movement in US due to the 9-11 lie.

In US the majority of the people supported an Iraq invasion where as in UK most people were against the Iraq invasion. I am not sure which is worse. Atleast Bush had the public behind him in the beginning and Blair didn't. In that sense US is more democratic than UK but also much more nationalistic.

[Goldiegirl]

Did you live in the USA at that time? Did you go to anti-war demonstrations. I felt we needed to retaliate for 9/11, but we bombed the WRONG country. Remember not all people voted for Bush! You can't lump all Americans in the same boat. I respect the Constitution of the USA and for what it stands for. Too the presidential elections in the USA are not won by popular vote, it is the electoral college that votes for each state. They DON"T have to vote for who the majority of their state wants. So you could vote for Smith, and the majority of your state does to, but you electoral college members can vote for Jones! (made up names of course) So don't go sounding off on what you don't know. You seem to think you know the USA very well, well what you know is propaganda. I am an American, ask me what is going on in my home state and country, I am not biased, because no one gives me money, I don't make money from my position, I have nothing to gain, unlike so called news agencies. Also there are more than just republicans and democrats in the USA, were called independent. Also, I don't care what other countries thought of 9/11 it wasn't their buildings blown up, their people murdered by cowards, their opinions didn't count.

[centrajapan]

US shouldn´t have bombed any country because 9-11 was a set up. It was the American government who did it. They should be sent to prison.

There are many great things about US which I like and there are alot of things about the country which I dont like. Its a love hate relationship. If they stopped bombing countries I would dislike them much less.

Bush is a war pig.

[Goldiegirl]

There is where our opinions divide us and nothing will bring them even remotely close, and therefore we can't discuss much. 9/11 was committed by Saudi terrorists, they took the jets and flew them into the WTC. That's it. Believe what you will and allow me to do the same.

[Skullcrushergurl]

US shouldnｴt have bombed any country because 9-11 was a set up. It was the American government who did it. They should be sent to prison.
There are many great things about US which I like and there are alot of things about the country which I dont like. Its a love hate relationship. If they stopped bombing countries I would dislike them much less.
Bush is a war pig.
Yeah yeah bush sucks. We're about to get a new president.
It makes no sense. Why would 911 be a setup?
I get this disturbing feeling that you HATE the U.S.A and are eager to watch it fall. Be open-minded and try to see from a side beyond your own.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Yeah yeah bush sucks. We're about to get a new president.
It makes no sense. Why would 911 be a setup?
I get this disturbing feeling that you HATE the U.S.A and are eager to watch it fall. Be open-minded and try to see from a side beyond your own.



The theory is that Bush was responsable for the 9/11 attacks and he did it to draw it support for his oil war in Iraq- regardless of whether or not this is true, the fact of the matter remains that if it weren't for the 9/11 attacks, likely support from the general public for the war in iraq wouldn't have been half as much, even though Saddam had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. Bush certainly used and abused the tragedy of the 9/11 attacks to draw in support for his own ambitions.



I personally i disagree with the war in Iraq, i feel we the general public were manipulated into agreeing with it, politicians twisted a lot of facts and there were never any weapons of mass destruction. Thousands of soliders and tens of thousands of civilians lives have been lost in the war, Iraq has crumbled and turned into a hell hole because of the war, people of all ages and either gender suffer enormously there. The americans have made so many bad mistakes in the war, it has gone from worse to worse etc.
And now america is been greatly affected by this war it has created- its dollar is weakening and oil prices are going up, the war has costed it millions of dollars, and everyone is asking what is to show for all of this? Nothing good thats for sure.

I think one of the things that got a lot of non-americans irritated is that why all of this has been going on for years, a lot of americans were in denial for it for a long time (and some still are) while other non-american people were coming to their sense and realising these things from early on- a lot of people view americans as particularly brainwashed by their governments/politicians propaganda and biased views because of this.


Over here in England, while we understand we live in a great country, we also realise that it is not perfect and that it does have its problems and flaws. A lot of americans though just seem to be completely incapable of admitting that there's anything wrong with their country, and that its this arrogance that i think gets to a lot of non-americans.

Of course i'm generalising a lot here, and i personally do and don't agree with some of the things i am stating here, but if any americans want to understand why not everybody loves america or think america is the best thing since sliced bread etc, then these are a few of the reasons commonly viewed by many people.

[scorpion da black]

Doc

in any culture, any society any living human understanding...
some on taking other's people's land is an invader...
cut the crap about the history and the biblical promised land bull ****
there was Palestinian villages and now they are Israeli cities...built on the corpses of massacared Palestinians and burnt to ash villages...

this is invasion ..occupation...
i dont mean to bitter ..but let me tell you this:
i don't expect some one like you who see it as righteous to take the lands of native Americans and massacre millions of red Indians to feel any compassion to Palestinians who are having the same fate as the red Indians...
they are having their lands invaded, occupied and forgotten

[Doc]

Since I am in a positive mood for once, I think I'll actually post something in-depth tonight. From my understanding to your post Tokis, Americans seem to be ignorant of many things in today's world. While I agree with you whole heartedly on that point, please keep in mind Americans aren't the only ones who are ignorant of the world. It is humanity in general that is ignorant of certain issues in the world. For example, take a look at the comment I made to Scorpion earlier. Granted, it was a bit brash on things, but the comment has a three folded meaning.

1.) Produce a negative action, and receive a negative response in kind.
2.) Producing only one sided arguments makes you look intellectually dishonest.
3.) Ignorance is not an excuse in producing poor arguments on issues.

Every argument that I read coming from Scorpion was always in a negative, absolutist fashion with no actual backing, and lack of comprehension or explanation of all sides of the issue. An example is the whole anti-Zionist attitude. He discusses how the Israelis are invaders, and should be dealt with in a quick and efficient manner. He never once talks about the Israeli side of things. Nor does he talk about how recent poles, sentiments, and overall feelings on the matter from both the Israelis and Palestinians is to solve problems in peace, break into a bi-state region, and remain good neighbors (much like how Czechoslovakia broke into the Czech Republic and Slovakia, and remain positive in ties with one another).

Scorpion also fails to acknowledge that the Israelis have every right to be in the Middle East, as anybody does, especially with the Hebrew faith having such a tragic history in a constant struggle in losing and regaining their holy land. Granted, in today's world both sides are to blame for certain hostilities, but for the most part it is the ignorant ones who continue to keep the flame going. It is due to a consistent preaching of said ignorance throughout the generations, and Scorpion's comments proved that.

Any sane person would realize that Islam isn't to blame, rather it is the culture of the region that is to blame. Add in about 100 million nut jobs perverting a religion and keeping the people ignorant, and you have what you have today. It isn't religion that drives the agenda, rather it is politics. The negative comment I made before that seemed to generalize Muslims was done on purpose. Why? It is because that is the kind of sentiments people have due to ignorance, from a society who justifies their actions in even further ignorance and complacency to fix it. If Muslims don't want the negative comments brought about them, then they need to be proactive in trying to fix the problem and change their culture around. Ignorance breeds ignorance, and to push it aside makes matters worse.

We are all guilty of ignorance. The whole world is. If people wish not to have such generalizations put into place, then they need to fix it. Provide different points of view. Provide facts not factoids. Don't actively go off on a tangent with a few scraps of poor information to provide your point of view, and then feel you're right and everybody else is wrong. It only gets you into further trouble. Most importantly, do let your feelings take control of the intellectual debate. Furthermore, do not judge certain events now in such an absolutist point of view. You don't know what the outcome will be, nor do you know what all the factors are either. It takes a good thirty years before the world can truly find out and justify the causes and effects of historical events.

*Note*

(I plan to at a later time (possibly tomorrow), to give an example of this with one of the most controversial historical topics of the twentieth century, the Vietnam War. What people think they know and what actually happened are so far apart it isn't even funny. I also plan to offer some insight later on why the US government does certain things that seem so negative to some, but in a twisted way actually has a positive spin in the long term. Lastly, I would like to go into the whole PC culture issue to, and provide how fallacious that is too.)

The point I am trying to make is that ignorance is all around us. It is what makes us human. The only way we can fix it, is to be active as a society to do so. All I have seen in this thread is nothing more than one sided arguments based on notions of hearsay, disinformation, and ignorance. The whole point of this section of the forum is to discuss serious matters in an intellectual context. However, when you have people throw out nothing but one sided arguments with little backing in context and get pissed off and leave when they know they're trapped in their own fallacies, it is no wonder this thread has degraded in the way that it has. There are a lot of criticisms that can be made about the US, but the same can be said for any country, culture, and society. If you are not willing to take the heat for it, then stop coming in here and posting in the thread with hate filled, ignorant messages.

We can learn from each other's ignorance and lies to find the truth. Just have the guts to do it, that's all.

-Doc :wave:

[scorpion da black]

Doc sir
i thank you for proving me right!!
you just showed me how little knowledge you have about me or what i stand for...and how you simply assume that i am ignorant and that i don't know how the Israeli side feels about all matters....... and this is coming from some one oceans away form the middle east and haven't experienced war with Israel first hand as i did many times ...

and this shows how poorly you read any of my comments since i became active in this forum.

first because i have debated with a man from Israel here on this forum and you are welcome to see how the conversation went ...
and i stated very clearly that:
" if a compromise was to be made to fulfill both people's aims ( Israel and Palestine )...If a compromise was to really achieve peace ...if a compromise is really effective and will grant us and the Israelis a honorable life...
then i welcome that compromise"

you are welcome to see my comments on the believe system 101 thread
the what means to make a compromise possible in the middle east thread

and then you could know what kind of person i am.before judging from nothing...

and the reason you have this negative from me towards you is because of shallow, poor, flaming, sarcastic comments of yours...just like the one you began with when you tried to make me look anti semitic....

oh and one more thing, if the Jewsih people went through so much pain that does not give them to inflict the same pain and suffer or ( more dosed pain ) to Arabs and invade their lands...
this land was Palestinian...I don't care what the bible said it was...

" so if the Islamic texts said that the Vatican is Islamic does that give us the right to invade it and have all the world's support in doing so??"

mixing religion with invading intent is cheap way cheap ....

and the holocaust was made by the German ..so the Jews can go there and build their holy land...why should we pay for a holocaust we didn't commit?
why should we have a holocaust be made against us...

[Doc]

Doc sir
i thank you for proving me right!!
you just showed me how little knowledge you have about me or what i stand for...and how you simply assume that i am ignorant and that i don't know how the Israeli side feels about all matters....... and this is coming from some one oceans away form the middle east and haven't experienced war with Israel first hand as i did many times ...

and this shows how poorly you read any of my comments since i became active in this forum.

first because i have debated with a man from Israel here on this forum and you are welcome to see how the conversation went ...
and i stated very clearly that:
" if a compromise was to be made to fulfill both people's aims ( Israel and Palestine )...If a compromise was to really achieve peace ...if a compromise is really effective and will grant us and the Israelis a honorable life...
then i welcome that compromise"

you are welcome to see my comments on the believe system 101 thread
the what means to make a compromise possible in the middle east thread

and then you could know what kind of person i am.before judging from nothing...

and the reason you have this negative from me towards you is because of shallow, poor, flaming, sarcastic comments of yours...just like the one you began with when you tried to make me look anti semitic....

oh and one more thing, if the Jewsih people went through so much pain that does not give them to inflict the same pain and suffer or ( more dosed pain ) to Arabs and invade their lands...
this land was Palestinian...I don't care what the bible said it was...

" so if the Islamic texts said that the Vatican is Islamic does that give us the right to invade it and have all the world's support in doing so??"

mixing religion with invading intent is cheap way cheap ....

and the holocaust was made by the German ..so the Jews can go there and build their holy land...why should we pay for a holocaust we didn't commit?
why should we have a holocaust be made against us...

If you indeed made that statement about peace in an earlier comment in a different thread, then I am rightfully wrong on that account.

However, I wouldn't celebrate anything just yet. You openly point out the flaws of all other cultures and societies, yet of your own. What about the checkered past of your people. What about all the millions of people who were killed in the name of religion. You sir, have just proven that you are an equal hypocrite in the matter. You quickly jump on the Christianity with the Crusades and the "Zionists" (and I use that term loosely too) on the Israel/Palestine issue. Yet, you never go into the past of what Muslims have done to people in that past. Do you think that the very land you live on isn't covered in the blood and corpses of innocent people who have died in the past over needless things. Over corruption, unnecessary judgment, and justification for such actions?

Me use religion in the sake of an argument? What about you? You obviously feel you are entitled to justify your arguments in such a context, or at the very least condemn anybody who does except when the challenge is brought onto you. So why can't others do the same? What entitles you to have that right. You ***** and complain that I'm being judgmental yet you do the same. If I am such a shallow and childish person, then what does that make you? You are no better in your arguments, and are just as equally childish and shallow. You have still yet to prove to me that everything you say is set in stone, and that your way is the right way. I'm looking for a debate here, and all you have provided is slams on me and others just equally as I others have done onto you.

If none of this is based on religion then what is it then? Cultural? Political? Tell me, I really want to know. You keep jumping around the issue, and only point out flaws in other's arguments to make yourself look better, yet when others do the same to you, you get pissed and start with mindless ramblings. I am not here to pick a fight, I am here to have an intellectual debate. However, if you are unwilling to accept other people's point of view and opinions on such matters then what's the point?

Oh and one last thing, about your whole "I'm a foreigner and know nothing about the Middle East", I guess having loads of Arab friends who like to give information of issues in that region that doesn't come out from AP, Reuters, and CNN doesn't count in having knowledge huh? If that is the case, then you know nothing about America, Americans, or what we put up with in general. Which means, if I can't talk or have an understanding about what happens in the Middle East, then you have no right to discuss anything about the US.

-Doc :wave:

[centrajapan]

If you agree with Israel it means you support ethnic cleansing. You are bound to have trouble if a people who come from thousands of kilometers away one day come in and say. This land is ours. Take a hike. We are the Chosen people therefore only I have a right to live here. I dont care how long you have lived here or your ancestors. Thats not my business so please take a hike.

Ben Gurion Quotes.

We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.
David Ben-Gurion

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”