Freedom of speech. Free press.

[centrajapan]

Here is a ranking of which countries have the most free press. I strongly believe in free speech though I know it always is not easy to draw the line. Censorship, no thanks.

The ranking
Rank Country Note
1 Iceland 0,75
- Norway 0,75
3 Estonia 1,00
- Slovakia 1,00
5 Belgium 1,50
- Finland 1,50
- Sweden 1,50
8 Denmark 2,00
- Ireland 2,00
- Portugal 2,00
11 Switzerland 3,00
12 Latvia 3,50
- Netherlands 3,50
14 Czech Republic 4,00
15 New Zealand 4,17
16 Austria 4,25
17 Hungary 4,50
18 Canada 4,88
19 Trinidad and Tobago 5,00
20 Germany 5,75
21 Costa Rica 6,50
- Slovenia 6,50
23 Lithuania 7,00
24 United Kingdom 8,25
25 Mauritius 8,50
- Namibia 8,50
27 Jamaica 8,63
28 Australia 8,79
29 Ghana 9,00
30 Greece 9,25
31 France 9,75
32 Taiwan 10,00
33 Spain 10,25
34 Bosnia and Herzegovina 11,17
35 Italy 11,25
36 Macedonia 11,50
37 Japan 11,75
- Uruguay 11,75
39 Chile 12,13
- South Korea 12,13
41 Croatia 12,50
42 Romania 12,75
43 South Africa 13,00
44 Israel (Israeli territory) 13,25
45 Cape Verde 14,00
- Cyprus 14,00
47 Nicaragua 14,25
48 United States of America 14,50
49 Togo 15,17
50 Mauritania 15,50

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24025

Who are these people who come with these statistics?

Reporters Without Borders

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=9594

I am happy to see Norway doing very well. I wish Japan was a little bit more free.

[RegDunlap]

I find that list a little hard to believe. How can Germany rank so high when simply questioning the Holocaust can get you thrown in jail?

I respect RSF, but their ranking needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. The US was in the top 10-15 just a few years ago, yet mysteriously has plummeted. Wonder why?

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I find that list a little hard to believe. How can Germany rank so high when simply questioning the Holocaust can get you thrown in jail?


Who's been thrown in jail in germany for simply questioning the holocast may i ask?

[RegDunlap]

Who's been thrown in jail in germany for simply questioning the holocast may i ask?
This guy, who is a scumbag by the way;




Sorry, can't post the link. Look up Ernst Zundel. He just got a 5 year sentence for it.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

This guy, who is a scumbag by the way;
Sorry, can't post the link. Look up Ernst Zundel. He just got a 5 year sentence for it.



The guy did more than just speak out about the holocast, he was an extremist neo-nazi who sent hate mail to holocaust survivers ("Zündel was a vocal supporter of alleged Nazi war criminals living in Canada. During the trial of Imre Finta, Zündel was confronted outside the courthouse by a Holocaust survivor. Zündel told the survivor "Listen, yeah, we are gonna get you yet, don't you worry"") who apparently promoted hatred against jews on his website.



I don't think there's anything wrong about questioning certain things that happened in the holocast, however this guy wasn't just doing that, he was an extremist and nazi supporter who tried to rally people to his cause and incite racial hatred against the jews.

And besises, it was the canadians who first arrested him, not the germans, according to wikipedia.

If you disagree with germany ranking so high because it disrupts the freedom of speech from individuals like this neo-nazi guy, then i disagree with what you are saying.
I don't think germany was out of line jailing this guy, and if america jailed him, i don't think america would be out of line for doing so either.
I'm sure this Ernst guy was very intelligent and had many good points to make, but from what i have read so far his debate on the holocaust turned into a more illogical hatred of the jews and which i am sure i knew full well that what he was saying was very damaging and was boung to incite violence of some sort sooner or later, and that he could have got his points across in a lot better and more respectful and responsable ways, and so it was very irresponsable for him to do what he did knowing the suffering it could cause to other people etc.

[centrajapan]

The US was in the top 10-15 just a few years ago, yet mysteriously has plummeted. Wonder why?

The reason why US is ranked quite low is because

There were slightly fewer press freedom violations in the United States (48th) and blogger Josh Wolf was freed after 224 days in prison. But the detention of Al-Jazeera’s Sudanese cameraman, Sami Al-Haj, since 13 June 2002 at the military base of Guantanamo and the murder of Chauncey Bailey in Oakland in August mean the United States is still unable to join the lead group.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24025

USA does have a long track record of prohibitin people entry with "ideological concerns."

One of them was Nelson Mandela.

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/exclusion/passports_act/

[RegDunlap]

I dont care who he hates or what he says really. He should be given the chance to air his views, and publicly make himself look like an idiot. Sunlight is often the best disinfectant.

I personally can only condone restricting free speech when there is a direct and credible threat of violence involved. Merely hurting someones' feelings just doesnt cut it. There is, AFAIK, no freedom from being insulted.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I dont care who he hates or what he says really. He should be given the chance to air his views, and publicly make himself look like an idiot. Sunlight is often the best disinfectant.
I personally can only condone restricting free speech when there is a direct and credible threat of violence involved. Merely hurting someones' feelings just doesnt cut it. There is, AFAIK, no freedom from being insulted.



The thing is he did get a chance to speak his views to the world, and at the very least do you not find anything wrong with the fact that he sent threats to a holocaust surviver? He wasn't just "hurting people's feelings".

We can all say whatever we want, but that doesn't mean that we should expect everyone to accept what we say or for us not to take responsability for what we say.

If someone started going around trying to rally people to the ideals and cause of the ku klux clan, would you just go and say "well they can say whatever they want, freedom of speech and all that"? Would you just say "oh well they don't deserve to get punished until the point when they inevitably take things too far and someone gets physically hurt"?

With the way this german guy was going, it was inevitable that things were going to turn violent between some people at some point.
It wasn't like his aim was just trying to debate a controversial point, he was completely disregarding a lot of evidence and being extremely disrespectful to thousands of war survivers, he was rallying people for a nazi cause.

[Mycernius]

I find that list a little hard to believe. How can Germany rank so high when simply questioning the Holocaust can get you thrown in jail?
I respect RSF, but their ranking needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. The US was in the top 10-15 just a few years ago, yet mysteriously has plummeted. Wonder why?
Patriot act anyone? :wary:

[Derfel]

Well you see the holocaust that took place is a fact, anyone who questions it, and isn't a historian with facts and documents, is a complete idiot, an idiot who deserves a few years in a cell for his idiocy.

[nice gaijin]

If we jailed everyone who said something stupid, we'd all be in prison. Freedom of speech is not a selective right--it applies to both idiots and the people who call them idiots.

[Derfel]

True, but not everyone attempts to state his moronic views in public. We are free to think anything, but certain things better not be stated.

[nice gaijin]

...We are free to think anything, but certain things better not be stated.
And that is not freedom of speech.

[Derfel]

Haha if I wrote all of my thoughts here i'd get banned and you'd pretty much agree with me getting banned, now isn't that the same case? Or perhaps should I consider this as encouragement to write the stuff I keep deep inside down?

[nice gaijin]

This is not your website, so you are subject to the rules set forth by the site administrators. If you start your own site, you can write whatever you want, however tasteless or wrong, without fear of getting arrested for stating your opinions. If you get banned from a privately owned forum for spouting the same nonsense, it's not a violation of your rights.

[Derfel]

This is not your website, so you are subject to the rules set forth by the site administrators. If you start your own site, you can write whatever you want, however tasteless or wrong, without fear of getting arrested for stating your opinions. If you get banned from a privately owned forum for spouting the same nonsense, it's not a violation of your rights.


The constitution is the very same thing, go start your own country with your own constitution and you can do whatever you please.

[nice gaijin]

That's a pretty big leap in logic, and a rather unreasonable length to go to in order to do as you please.

[RegDunlap]

The thing is he did get a chance to speak his views to the world, and at the very least do you not find anything wrong with the fact that he sent threats to a holocaust surviver? He wasn't just "hurting people's feelings". Doesnt matter if it was a holocaust survivor or not. If he made specific threats, which were directed at a specific person,that is a crime. If not, he can say what he wants.

We can all say whatever we want, but that doesn't mean that we should expect everyone to accept what we say or for us not to take responsability for what we say. People dont have to accept it. That is THEIR freedom. As for"taking responsibiliity", see above re uttering threats.
If someone started going around trying to rally people to the ideals and cause of the ku klux clan, would you just go and say "well they can say whatever they want, freedom of speech and all that"? Would you just say "oh well they don't deserve to get punished until the point when they inevitably take things too far and someone gets physically hurt"?Yes.

he was completely disregarding a lot of evidence and being extremely disrespectful to thousands of war survivers, he was rallying people for a nazi cause.Which he should be allowed to do.

Distasteful and controversial speech needs protecting the most.

[tokapi]

And that is not freedom of speech.



In America,it doesn't extend to Communists or sympathizers propagate Marxism ideology agenda.:wave:

[nice gaijin]

In America,it doesn't extend to Communists or sympathizers propagate Marxism ideology agenda.:wave:
Are you referring to the Cold War era, or something more contemporary?

[Mycernius]

Probably to the McCarthy trials and communtist witch hunts.
As for Germany, anyone promoting its Nazi past, the salute, propaganda, is illegal in Germany. It is the countries way of dealing with its past. There are enough threads on the forum as a whole with regards to the Japanese not facing up to its actions in WW2. I'm sure you would feel just as hot-tempered if the Germans treated its Nazi past with a shrine to its war dead from the SS.
Ther is no true freedom of speech anywhere in the world. What you say will annoy someone and if they are powerful enough they will try their best to censor it. One example is the press itself. say anything against the media and it will not get very much publicity and you will find your views censored in the media. The likes of Rupert Murdoch have quite a bit of power when it comes to shaping the views of the populace.

[Derfel]

Absolute freedom of speech would only heat things up and lead to anarchy. We'd have millions of debates everywhere on TV, strikes all around, extremist movements under every bloody rock. If you want to live in that kind of country I can understand why you promote absolute freedom of speech.

[RegDunlap]

Absolute freedom of speech would only heat things up and lead to anarchy. We'd have millions of debates everywhere on TV, strikes all around, extremist movements under every bloody rock. If you want to live in that kind of country I can understand why you promote absolute freedom of speech.I dont recall anyone promoting "absolute" freedom of speech. You are making a straw man argument, and a poor one at that. In any case, you have no proof that any of what you speculate would actually happen.

Mycernius said;As for Germany, anyone promoting its Nazi past, the salute, propaganda, is illegal in Germany. It is the countries way of dealing with its past. There are enough threads on the forum as a whole with regards to the Japanese not facing up to its actions in WW2. I'm sure you would feel just as hot-tempered if the Germans treated its Nazi past with a shrine to its war dead from the SS.
60 plus years later, it is a pretty sh!tty way to deal with the past. By driving neonazis underground, you give them cachet and "cool" factors that exposing them in public would not do.

A government facing up to its past has nothing to do with restricting the speech of its citizens. They are different issues.

[Derfel]

you have no proof that any of what you speculate would actually happen.

Don't deny the obvious please. Or perhaps you have one of those huge A armbands?

[RegDunlap]

Don't deny the obvious please. Or perhaps you have one of those huge A armbands?It's hard to deny what has not been proven or tested. However, YOU are the one who made the claim, so you are the one who should provide some evidence to support it.

Open and public debate of controversial issues is the best for all concerned. Once some ideas are labeled as too controversial or taboo, the door is open for abuse.

What do you mean by an "A armband"? You lost me there.

[Derfel]

Sure, as you wish.
For every problem several ideologies offer a solution. And when major problems arise they become more and more active. Exactly this happened in the post WW I Germany. People became open to extremist ideas in their desperation, the left and right wings started drinking each other's blood, and the right wing was victorious. What did this lead to? WW II. If there would have been a strong power to supervise them, it could have been avoided, or perhaps it could have softened the impact somehow.
Even today nazi scum is wreaking havoc on the streets from time to time when the police gets lax, now imagine legal nazi events and the destruction it would cause.

[RegDunlap]

Sure, as you wish.
For every problem several ideologies offer a solution. And when major problems arise they become more and more active. Exactly this happened in the post WW I Germany. People became open to extremist ideas in their desperation, the left and right wings started drinking each other's blood, and the right wing was victorious. What did this lead to? WW II. If there would have been a strong power to supervise them, it could have been avoided, or perhaps it could have softened the impact somehow.
Even today nazi scum is wreaking havoc on the streets from time to time when the police gets lax, now imagine legal nazi events and the destruction it would cause.Are you saying the collapseof the Weimar Republic in post WW1 Germany was caused by..........

free speech?!?!?

Never heard that theory before. Here I was thinking that it was caused by economic chaos and a very poorly worded Versailles Treaty.

I would much prefer Nazi events to occur in public (where they can be seen and mocked) than underground. It is easier to squash a cockroach in a well lit room than in a darkened one.

[Derfel]

I would say both. Poverty and unemployment is to blame as well I don't deny it. But without each other they couldn't have caused what happened.

Nazi events? Sure, allow them in the public, and when they gather release a nice volley + nerve gas or something.

[RegDunlap]

Yes, it IS tempting to simply kill or oppress those we dont believe or agree with. But in the end, it isnt the right thing to do.

Want to really hurt them? Mock them. Organize a counter protest with pictures of a dead Hitler and a caption that reads "he took the COWARD'S way out". Make a swastika type banner, but have the background in hot pink,and the arms of the swastica are all gay men's arms that are holding hands in the middle.

[Mars Man]

If we jailed everyone who said something stupid, we'd all be in prison. Freedom of speech is not a selective right--it applies to both idiots and the people who call them idiots.

Which is why the INTERPOL is after me....but here up in the sticks....I'm out of sight. !!

Please forgive me for this little off topic.

[scorpion da black]

Well you see the holocaust that took place is a fact, anyone who questions it, and isn't a historian with facts and documents, is a complete idiot, an idiot who deserves a few years in a cell for his idiocy.

well so the holocaust did happen...
should the plestinians pay for it?
why cant the zionists build a country in germeny where the holocaust happened??
the paletinians didnt do the holocaust....why should another holocaust accure against them??
the people who built a country on the ashes of villages and corpses of innocent people cry over the holocaust when they are doing far worse....


see if i say that in germeny i would be in jail....
i was banned from a forum for saying that, just that....i didnt curse or insult any one...

so much for freedom of speech...any one can flame prophet mohammed all he wants...but when any one says anything about the holocaust he is prosecuted...

[Derfel]

see if i say that in germeny i would be in jail....
i was banned from a forum for saying that, just that....i didnt curse or insult any one...

Most likely you wouldn't be, as you did not question the existence of the holocaust. They don't put you in a cell if your ideas of the solutions differ. Also, lets try t avoid that issue, it doesn't seem to work, so better not piss each other off, and stay calm, all of us.

[Mycernius]

so much for freedom of speech...any one can flame prophet mohammed all he wants...but when any one says anything about the holocaust he is prosecuted...
Obviously you have missed this story on the Teddy bear.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7124447.stm

[Derfel]

Or perhaps you forgot how extremist groups threatened to retaliate on the European countries that published some comics with Muhammad caricatures in it? There are hundreds of caricatures of Buddha, the Pope, Christ and pretty much anyone and everyone, but no one gets so pissed about it. And you know what? Its normal. We can't expect you to respect our prophets, deities whatevers as much as yours, and this stand vice versa as well.

[scorpion da black]

Or perhaps you forgot how extremist groups threatened to retaliate on the European countries that published some comics with Muhammad caricatures in it? There are hundreds of caricatures of Buddha, the Pope, Christ and pretty much anyone and everyone, but no one gets so pissed about it. And you know what? Its normal. We can't expect you to respect our prophets, deities whatevers as much as yours, and this stand vice versa as well.

you are wrong derfel...your prophets are respected greatly here as well
because they are our prophets as well...
if you dont know, Jesus, Muses, Abraham, Isaac, Ismael...and many more are prohpets we respect and admire.
we dodnt even drow their looks, we dont even act as them in a ny drama...even if it is non insulting....that is because we think they are so pure to be played by any one.
we have respect for jesus more than christians them selves...
and as for the caricatures....i dont see any muslim doing that...it is christians making fun of their own faith...

you are missing my point here....
the systems in western countries will not allow any one to say any thing even mildly insulting the holocoust....but they will give total protection to any one who insults prophet Muhammed.....

this is hypocricy

[Derfel]

The holocaust is a different question, I know Christ is one of your prophets, but than again, Buddha isn't now is he?
You can joke about prophets all you want here in Europe and America, you are free to talk whatever you wish about religion. But please not, the genocide is not a religion, its an undeniable fact. You would receive no punishment for publishing a couple of nasty pics about Buddha or Muhammad or Christ or Zeus, Mithras, Taranis etc. simply because theocracy was rooted out long ago. But the holocaust is a sensitive spot, its a fact only a Jew hater would question, or perhaps a historian in a hypothesis, and than throw it into to rubbish bin right away.

[Mycernius]

You would receive no punishment for publishing a couple of nasty pics about Buddha or Muhammad or Christ or Zeus, Mithras, Taranis etc. simply because theocracy was rooted out long ago.
Not as rooted out as you might think. There are conservative christians in the US who would like to see the US run as a Christian theocracy.

your prophets are respected greatly here as well
because they are our prophets as well...
if you dont know, Jesus, Muses, Abraham, Isaac, Ismael...and many more are prohpets we respect and admire.
we dodnt even drow their looks, we dont even act as them in a ny drama...even if it is non insulting....that is because we think they are so pure to be played by any one.
we have respect for jesus more than christians them selves...
Respected, yes, and sometimes to the point where it is short of deification. If you wish to talk about Muhammad, Jesus, Abraham such as actions, existance, etc. someone would take a position which the religious zealots would take as insulting. I have mentioned on threads before that I believe Muhammad was literate, was never visted by an Angel and did what holy men have been doing for thousands of years. Taking what he read or heard in other religions and making it to suit his people. I can do that in the UK, but in a country like Iran....not a chance. But I haven't been disrepectful, I have voiced an opinion. Even God must come under examination. No-one is pure enough to be above discussion.
As for respect of non-abrahamic religions we know where the Muslims extremists stand on that. The blowing up of the Buddhas in Afghanistan just because they were non-muslim was an insult to ever Buddhist in the world, but that didn't bother them.

[Derfel]

Not as rooted out as you might think. There are conservative christians in the US who would like to see the US run as a Christian theocracy.

Hahh, let them whine as much as they want, the times have changed.
Even a religious person should not wish for theocracy, simply because theocracy is nothing but a tool of survival in situations where its hard to keep the "herd" together.
We have no need for it now, and until a perilous era arises we should not allow it to resurface again.

[Pachipro]

What is printed today is nothing more than what "they" want us to believe and most people fall for it by quoting news media as their sources. "Well, I heard it on the news!" or "The newspaper said....."

If it's local news like a murder or robbery, good samaritans, etc. it is probably believable and true. But, if it has to do with politics, finance or religion, you will only read what they want you to read and it sure isn't the truth no matter what country you reside in.

As far as the myth of "Freedom of the Press" goes, I leave you with this quote I posted in a thread a while back:

John Swinton, the former Chief of Staff of the New York Times, called by his peers "the Dean of his profession", was asked in 1953 to give a toast before the New York Press Club. He responded with the following statement:

"There is no such thing as an independent press in America, if we except that of little country towns. You know this and I know it. Not a man among you dares to utter his honest opinion. Were you to utter it, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print.

I am paid one hundred and fifty dollars a week so that I may keep my honest opinion out of the newspaper for which I
write. You too are paid similar salaries for similar services.

Were I to permit that a single edition of my newspaper contained an honest opinion, my occupation - like Othello's - would be gone in less than twenty-four hours.

The man who would be so foolish as to write his honest opinion would soon be on the streets in search of another job. It is the duty of a New York journalist to lie, to distort, to revile, to toady at the feet of Mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread, or what amounts to the same thing, his salary.

We are the tools and the vassals of the rich behind the scenes. We are marionettes. These men pull the strings and we dance. Our time, our talents, our lives, our capacities are all the property of these men - we are intellectual prostitutes." (As quoted by T. St. John Gaffney in Breaking The Silence, page 4.)

That was the U.S. press in 1953 and it is the mass media of America, and the world today.

Who here will dispute what this man, the former Chief of Staff of the NY Times, one of the most "respected and trusted" newspapers in the US today?

[scorpion da black]

The holocaust is a different question, I know Christ is one of your prophets, but than again, Buddha isn't now is he?
You can joke about prophets all you want here in Europe and America, you are free to talk whatever you wish about religion. But please not, the genocide is not a religion, its an undeniable fact. You would receive no punishment for publishing a couple of nasty pics about Buddha or Muhammad or Christ or Zeus, Mithras, Taranis etc. simply because theocracy was rooted out long ago. But the holocaust is a sensitive spot, its a fact only a Jew hater would question, or perhaps a historian in a hypothesis, and than throw it into to rubbish bin right away.

again derfel you mis a point..
you cant see everything from your perspective....
prophet Muhammed is as important to us as the holocoust is for jews....
an insult to him is an isult to every Muslim...
we dont tolorate insults to a person we believe is perfect...
you cant always see things from your perspective.

and about the holocoust you are still missing my point, why should we arabs pay for what the german did?
why should another holocaust happen against us??
plus the holocaust happened against jews not against zionists.
zionism and judism is two seprate things.

plus how many jews were killed in the holocaust??
so when ever a group of people is kiled they give them selves the right to occupy another people's land???

so the Algerians now have the right to occupy france since they killed a million algerians...and treated them like mice, and never as human beings...

what philosophy is that for crying out loud??????!!!!!!

[RegDunlap]

again derfel you mis a point..
you cant see everything from your perspective....
prophet Muhammed is as important to us as the holocoust is for jews....
an insult to him is an isult to every Muslim...
we dont tolorate insults to a person we believe is perfect...This is the problem in a nutshell. In western countries, and countries with enlightened laws and freedom, you HAVE TO tolerate insults. You can insult me or my prophet, I can insult you or your prophet, and life goes on. If you don't like that level of free discussion, you can go back to a protected little theocracy.

This is a very basic point.
and about the holocoust you are still missing my point, why should we arabs pay for what the german did?
why should another holocaust happen against us??There is no holocaust happening against other arabs. Except perhaps by arabs to arabs.

plus how many jews were killed in the holocaust??
so when ever a group of people is kiled they give them selves the right to occupy another people's land???The problem is that Israel isn't "another people's land". It was Jewish land for centuries as well. This is an undeniable historical fact. The UN tried to put the situation right, by making an Arab country (Jordan) and a Jewish country (Israel). However, the Arabs tried instead to use war to win the entire area. They lost. Get over it.


I do agree that making holocaust denial a crime, while allowing the mocking of religion, is hypocritical. Both should be legal.

[centrajapan]

The problem is that Israel isn't "another people's land". It was Jewish land for centuries as well. This is an undeniable historical fact. The UN tried to put the situation right, by making an Arab country (Jordan) and a Jewish country (Israel). However, the Arabs tried instead to use war to win the entire area. They lost. Get over it.

Israel is another peoples land except to those who supports the Zionist ideology and defend ethnic cleansing. Zionism is an ideology barely 100 years old. To supporters of Israel they have to believe this to legitimize their own actions. The Nazis legitimized their actions by saying “ We have to defend our people” American settlers used to say “the manifest of the west” It was some kind of god given right that Americans expanded through the west even if this meant confiscation of the Native American land.


As for saying it was Jewish land. Does being a Jew imply belonging to a people, race? Or is being Jew a religion? After all there are Jews in Ethiopia, Iran and in Belgium. Do they all belong to the same race and have the same type of DNA? Have Jews in Ethiopia spoken the same language as Jews in Sweden?

Can Buddhist for instance go to Western China which has a Muslim population and take away their land and say. This is our land we were here first?

The other concideration one should take is that there were people living in Israel-Palestine before the creation of Israel. Since they lived before there even was a religion called Judaism should not their opinion count more?

Your quote also ignores that people over time converted to other religions. They were Jewsih but then became Christians then later on Muslims. Also it can go the other way aswell. There were Christians who converted Judaism.

How about since Jews were terrorized out of their homes 2000 years ago and Palestinians only 60 years ago. Does this mean that Palestinians can return to their homes in 1940 years?

The term. It was “Jewish Land” is only true for those who believe in that ideology.

Since the Palestinians lost does this mean that they should be oppressed by Israelis? Since the Palestinians lost they should not have their own country?

..................

In some countries swear words are censored such as in USA and in Japan too there are words which are not allowed to be said on air where as in Scandinavia I do not think there are any swear words which get censored.

There is also a complete different approach to nuditiy. In northern Europe you see womens breasts in shampoo advertisement. However not in Japan or most other countries.

In US writers were getting jailed before for showing sympathy towards communism. These days they will get jailed for sympathising with certain millitant Islam groups. Its against American law to support what the US government labels "terrorist".

Recently in Scandinavia there have been debates on freedom of speech vs blasphemy. The carricatures of the Prohet upset many people. Scandinavia being a secular democracy where most people are not religious but from a Christian cultural background where as in the Middle East most people have a different cultural background there is bound to have some kind of friction and disagreements of opinions on what can be tolerated and what shouldnt.

What would happen if one of the major news papers in Europe or Middle East drew mock carricatures of Jews in a concentration camp?

[RegDunlap]

What would happen if one of the major news papers in Europe or Middle East drew mock carricatures of Jews in a concentration camp?
Hope you dont mind me taking out the part of your rant that pertains to the topic, mainly free speech.

Well, in Europe I would expect there to be an uproar, of course. Nothing wrong with the public making their feelings known. However, I would not expect mobs of people calling for death to the editors of the newspaper, or for the death of the artist, or anything of the sort.

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm

In the Middle East, there are myriad examples of Jews being portrayed in newspaper and editorial cartoons as animals, rats, vermin, bloodsuckers, and the like.

[scorpion da black]

RegDunlap...go and learn history correctly...the people of this land palestine are the same people ever since canninites exist....

the zionists use religion to claim what is not theirs...

we are the rightful owners of this land, and israel shouldnt exist.

oh and who ever said only jews are zionists??...there is christian zionists in the US who support Israel both financially and politically.

[Derfel]

Its pointless to argue on who is the rightful owner as both the arabs and jews have right to the land. But one thing is for certain, rightful or not, the owner is who has more power over the land.

[scorpion da black]

i said this on another thread.

there is no right or wrong just point of views..

review my first posts about the middle east subject and then you will understand what i mean.

[centrajapan]

Just curious, do you like to ask pointless questions such as the one above?

It isn't a pointless question. It is highly relevant.

[Derfel]

Okay, I will consider that question of yours a rhetorical tool, a question which you are asking yourself, wondering, as im quite sure he has no favorite ethnic cleanser, which answer you should already know by now, without thinking or asking.

[centrajapan]

The reason why I asked this is because Israel is guilty of this. Israel was founded on the expense of someone else and there lies the problem of this conflict.

edited. Sorry for drifting off topic and yet turn this into Palestine-Israel.

[RegDunlap]

Can you define "ethnic cleansing" for me? Then I can tell you my favorite example.

If you mean people being forced from their homes, you may want to examine the treatment of Jews in Arab:African countries in the 40s and 50s. THEY were beaten, robbed, and ejected from countries where they had lived for centuries.

[Mars Man]

AND NOW. . . GETTING BACK TO FREE SPEECH. . . and such. . . I would say that there would be some natural barriers in a sense, to some degree, according to the generally accepted concept of politeness within a given social group, that would yet not be considered as censorship, but (within and across that general social group) as simply common sense.

Such matters even cross social groups at times, to varying degrees. For example, whether here in Japan, the US, France, or Bangladesh, one wouldn't likely just go up to a total stranger and start talking about how foolish they looked for wearing a certain type of garb, or clothing. This would be classified as taboo, more likely, therefore we could assert that taboos are socially constructed, (to that degree)-natural censorship particles.

I recall once about a trial in Ohio (USA) over a charge against some man for saying a curse word to himself (but, unfortunately, kind of in front of other people). In that there was an actually law against profanity, I would think that it would then cross over the line of simply being taboo, to being censorship, and thus, by extension, non-freedom of speech. Do we have other examples like that in the world?

HINT, HINT, HINT...please do notice the bold orange words at the top !

[RegDunlap]

I agree MM. There is a big difference between social censorship through various mechanisms (self awareness, shaming, etc) and legal. IMHO, bringing the coercive force of the government against a private citizen should only be done in dire circumstances. Merely insulting or rude speech does not meet that criteria. For a criminal act of speech, I would say that there must be an immediate and credible threat present within the speech act.

[Mars Man]

AND NOW. . . GETTING BACK TO FREE SPEECH. . . and such. . .

HINT, HINT, HINT...please do notice the bold orange words at the top !

I guess the size and color had not been outstanding enough. Sorry for the repeat, it's just that...well. This is also an exercise of free speech. Also it is censorship...due to a template that JREF uses. We have a certain guide line (rule, if you will...or maybe we could say LAW !!?) that we go by here, and that is we are free to say whatever we want, within certain limits (due usually to age groups who are members, and the set-up conception of what JREF is) and we have catagories. (meaning theme/topic headings [per forum, thread])

This particular thread is about Freedom of PRESS/SPEECH.

ps of course there is some margin given for off-topicness, but to go off and stay off, or to repeatedly drag a thread off-topic is a NO NO...

[Mycernius]

On the subject of a free press the BBC has commisioned a poll from around the world on free speech.
LINK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7134918.stm)
Makes interesting reading.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I dont recall anyone promoting "absolute" freedom of speech. You are making a straw man argument, and a poor one at that. In any case, you have no proof that any of what you speculate would actually happen.
Mycernius said; 60 plus years later, it is a pretty sh!tty way to deal with the past. By driving neonazis underground, you give them cachet and "cool" factors that exposing them in public would not do.
A government facing up to its past has nothing to do with restricting the speech of its citizens. They are different issues.



If you aren't promoting absolute freedom of speech, then what is your point?

And looking at the evidence, by punishing nazi's i do not think it is making their image cooler- do you see lots of young easily influenced teenagers walking around saying "hey i'm going to be a nazi 'cos its against the law!"? Do you really think people act like dumb sheep that much?



Tell me, what positive can come from letting someone try to rally people to the nazi cause?
You said you didn't agree with germanys "lack" of freedom of speech, you gave an example for believing this and choose its anti-nazi laws as an example. By doing so, you are essentially saying you agree with people spreading nazi extremist views, which would do nothing positive for anyone that actually cared about their communities and society.
I am not one of those people that would encourage absolute freedom of speech with no consequences if doing such a thing would do nothing good.

[Derfel]

Well you have absolute freedom of speech in your house or room right? So say everything you wish there, once finished come out, and spare the people of radical ideas, thats my opinion. Nazism isn't a debated philosophical view, its complete BS, equal human rights is not something you argue about, and anyone who goes against this obvious rule is dumb, so dumb that he should be put on a display like a rare kind of monkey.
Tokis-Phoenix is absolutely right, people turn nazi because they are influenced by other nazi morons, and not because they are not. First make them legit, as a second step let them form a party and who knows what else. Nazism isn't even an organized "view" or "philosophy" or call it whatever. Imagine an international nazi world meeting, they'd just jump at each others throats and own each other up. They simple rabid dogs, and rabid dogs need to be tied.

[Absynthia]

I find that list a little hard to believe. How can Germany rank so high when simply questioning the Holocaust can get you thrown in jail?

Exactly! Freedom of speech applies only to those that don't think outside the box, to those that never question their authorities.

Like... anti facists/nazis can have their protests, but facists/nazis can't? That is absolutely ridicilous! You may not like what someone is saying or supporting, but it is (or should be) their right to express their opinion and their views.
The hell with all that hypocrisy.