Japan agrees to stop hunting humpback whales

[Sarapva]

The Japanese government agreed not to kill the 50 humpback whales in the Southern Ocean that they'd planned to hunt this year because of opposition from Australia and other countries in the International Whaling Commission. No other decision has been made yet. Japan will continue to hunt minke and fin whales.

But it sounds like the outcry against the Japanese whaling is heating up, especially from Australia's new prime minister, who has promised to be more diligent in opposing Japan's whaling.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/japan/story/0,,2231390,00.html

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20071222a1.html

[centrajapan]

Japan did not stop due to pressure from Australia. This was in accordnce to other whaling countries such as Greenland who also agreed to stop the hunt of humpback whales until next year until they have even more scientific data on the stock estimates. Aussies are so full of cr@p and they are not aware of how stupid they look. A bunch of religious freaks. The anti whaling movement that is.

Australians are cute funny people out in the outback on a walk about. Australia is against whaling yet they eat other type of meat. Japan will still continue its very highly respected Sceintific hunt for the minke whales which are no where near endangered.

I hope Australians are just as loud condemning the indegenous people of North America on their stance on whaling. Why should it be any different? Japanese are indegenous people too.

From one whaling culture to an another. Brothers in arms. Down with racist Anglo Saxon imperialism.

[tokapi]

Back in the 1980's,Olivia Newton-John cancelled Japan concert tour in protest against slaughtered of dolphins by Japanese fishermen.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

From one whaling culture to an another. Brothers in arms. Down with racist Anglo Saxon imperialism.

Hello Centrajapan,

Why is there so much hate in you? If you have fallen in love with one country, doesn't mean that everything in other countries is wrong, you know.

[centrajapan]

Australia is wrong. I don´t understand why Japan is willing to put up racist crap from countries like Austraia in the first place. I´m sure if people protested Norway´s whale hunt the way Australia is doing towards Japan, Norway would tell Australia and all the other countries and rightfully so to stick their head in a place where the sun never shines.

Imagine the Nazis one day condemned the Dutch for eating cows. The Nazis say it is inhumane to eat cows so we will do whatevert we can to make you stop killing cows. But you can eat pigs and horse like the Nazis do but not cows because cows are cute and magnificent animals. cows are special to us.

The Nazis are hell bent on making the Dutch stop eating cows no matter what. However they don´t mind if the Belgians eat cows or the Danes but no, not the Dutch. They can not eat cows.

Fascism did not die in 1945. It comes in new shapes and forms. Anti whaling racist Australia is a good example of that.

[Kyoto Returnee]

Australia is wrong. I don´t understand why Japan is willing to put up racist crap from countries like Austraia in the first place. I´m sure if people protested Norway´s whale hunt the way Australia is doing towards Japan, Norway would tell Australia and all the other countries and rightfully so to stick their head in a place where the sun never shines.

Imagine the Nazis one day condemned the Dutch for eating cows. The Nazis say it is inhumane to eat cows so we will do whatevert we can to make you stop killing cows. But you can eat pigs and horse like the Nazis do but not cows because cows are cute and magnificent animals. cows are special to us.

The Nazis are hell bent on making the Dutch stop eating cows no matter what. However they don´t mind if the Belgians eat cows or the Danes but no, not the Dutch. They can not eat cows.

Fascism did not die in 1945. It comes in new shapes and forms. Anti whaling racist Australia is a good example of that.

Centrajapan, are you going for Japanese citizenship?

[Sarapva]

Back in the 1980's,Olivia Newton-John cancelled Japan concert tour in protest against slaughtered of dolphins by Japanese fishermen.

Olivia Newton-John was ahead of her time! :cool:

According to this article, Japan backed down from hunting humpbacks because of pressure from the U.S.:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22362633/


centrajapan - It seems that one of the objections the Japanese have to western interference in their whaling is that they think westerners think whales are "cute" or majestic; in other words, they seem to think it's based on aesthetics instead of realizing that people around the world actually care about the world's environment (not just their own country), and can actually empathize with whales and other animals. This is one area Japan seems to be way behind in. I hope, for Japan's sake as well as the rest of the world, that the younger generations have more ability to feel what another person or animals feels.

The world's objection to whaling has nothing to do with race - I think using race in the argument is the last resort of those who don't have a good argument.

[Homerduff]

Australia is wrong. I don´t understand why Japan is willing to put up racist crap from countries like Austraia in the first place. I´m sure if people protested Norway´s whale hunt the way Australia is doing towards Japan, Norway would tell Australia and all the other countries and rightfully so to stick their head in a place where the sun never shines.
Imagine the Nazis one day condemned the Dutch for eating cows. The Nazis say it is inhumane to eat cows so we will do whatevert we can to make you stop killing cows. But you can eat pigs and horse like the Nazis do but not cows because cows are cute and magnificent animals. cows are special to us.
The Nazis are hell bent on making the Dutch stop eating cows no matter what. However they don´t mind if the Belgians eat cows or the Danes but no, not the Dutch. They can not eat cows.
Fascism did not die in 1945. It comes in new shapes and forms. Anti whaling racist Australia is a good example of that.

I guess I don't have to point out the difference between a cow and a endangered animal specie.

[Derfel]

Aussies are so full of cr@p and they are not aware of how stupid they look.
Judging by this comment it seems you aren't aware either.


From one whaling culture to an another. Brothers in arms. Down with racist Anglo Saxon imperialism.
WTF? People of whaling cultures have more space in their skulls, so basically they're more advanced humans, and are destined to enslave and rule the rest. Especially:
a, Exiles
b, People who descend from colonizators in the west
c, People whose neighbors eat haggis.
d, People who descend from colonizators in the north-west (with the exception of Quebec because they have Jean D'Arc in their history, even if it all happened on a different continent)
By the way, have you figured out how to peel off the St Patrick and St Andrew flags before burning the UK flag? You could try a plain St George flag, but hey, that would be boring, thats simply not enough to show off the superiority of certain whaling countries.

Do not get me wrong, I don't necessarily disagree with your views, simply this presentation was a bit hostile.

[Rose Selavey]

Hi All,

what wonderful news that japan has decided to stop to hunt Humpbacks in the Southern Ocean. The reason they have done this is up to the Japanese propaganda machine, us international forces will never know why or who influenced this decision.

As to racist comments about Australian People I think that centrajapan needs to come and visit meet the people and realise that from no matter what culture you come from, deep down we are all the same.

All the letter writing has paid off for the humpbacks, now back to the desk for more about the minke and fin whales need to happen.

Thanks for this forum it has been an insight.

[centrajapan]

What wonderful news that Japan will kill more whales this year than last year and all the close minded racist bigots from Aussies and the disrespectful attutude they have against Japan does not change a damn thing.

Bon apetit. Stick to what you know which is not whaling.

[Derfel]

Bon apetit. Stick to what you know which is not whaling.

Yes Master, we ordinary folks have no right to question your Superior Whaling Majesty.
I must apologize, how could I, a lowly landlubber comprehend the incomprehensible depth of the issue.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

all the close minded racist bigots from Aussies and the disrespectful attutude they have against Japan does not change a damn thing.


centrajapan, you dare to say quite a bit about the Australians.

This is a nice Forum where we all get the chance to argue, and often we don't agree, but we stay polite.
I always tell myself; " If he/she could come to Amsterdam then we can talk while drinking a cup of coffee with a piece of apple pie with whipped cream to make us both sweeter"

[Sarapva]

....come and visit meet the people and realise that from no matter what culture you come from, deep down we are all the same.

All the letter writing has paid off for the humpbacks, now back to the desk for more about the minke and fin whales need to happen.
Thanks for this forum it has been an insight.

Yes, I agree - we're all the same deep down, and calling each other names doesn't help anything.

And yes - this is wonderful news for the humpbacks and the people, but the minke and fin whales are still in the firing line of the harpoons. One whale killed, no matter what the species, is too many.

[centrajapan]

Hello. As my post seem a bit hostile allow me to explain. I don't think it is any worse to eat whale meat than other types of meat. I don't understand why Australians are so hell bent on making Japan stop hunting whales. Why are they so pre occupied with it? Rose is telling who is a racist? Am I telling you to stop eating kangaroos or beef? No, I am not. So why are you telling me to stop eating whales?

I am also curious. Do you have a slightest clue of which whale spieces is about to go extinct? Anser. None of the whale spiecies Japan is hunting or wants to hunt. The truth of the matter is. The North Atlantic Right Whale is about to go extinct. There are less than 500 of them off the coast of USA. The reason why they are about go to extinct is because ships keep ramming into these whales. No one has hunted the Right Whale for centuries. US and other commercial interests don't want to change the route on the cargo ships because that means longer time and time is money.

Where is the outcry Australia? This just proves that Australia is driven more by hate of Japan than love of whales.Japan has been hunting whales for 2000 years longer than there was such thing called Australia. They need to clap it and leave IWC which stands for International Whaling Committee.

[centrajapan]

Do you guys know that the various Native American Nations hunt Humpback and other whale spiecies which are much closer to extinction? Where is the outcry?

I would like to see Greenpeace activists and other anti whaling fanatics beating up Native Americans and creating a havock while they hunt whales.

[Derfel]

Japan has been hunting whales for 2000 years longer than there was such thing called Australia.
Please, I beg you, bring Pangea into the picture.

[Sarapva]

The North Atlantic Right Whale is about to go extinct. There are less than 500 of them off the coast of USA. The reason why they are about go to extinct is because ships keep ramming into these whales. No one has hunted the Right Whale for centuries. US and other commercial interests don't want to change the route on the cargo ships because that means longer time and time is money.

You're right about this, centrajapan:

This is from the International Fund for Animal Welfare (IFAW):

The critically endangered North Atlantic right whales - of which only about 300 survive today - are especially vulnerable to both entanglements and collisions with ships. At least 72% of North Atlantic right whales have scars from entanglement, while collisions with vessels account for half of all their known deaths. In 2004, IFAW launched a pilot program in Massachusetts, USA to help lobstermen replace dangerous floating rope with whale-friendly sinking rope.

http://www.stopwhaling.org/site/c.foJNIZOyEnH/b.2660175/k.C3B7/Stop_Whaling_Now__Entanglements_and_Ship_Strikes__ IFAW_US.htm

It's the U.S. that should be trying to do something about this, though. Australia is protecting the whales they know near them.

[Rose Selavey]

CentraJapan,

You have consistently posted broad stereotyped exaggerations about Australians for no reason other than ignorance and obviously do not have/know much information about Australian culture. You have mentioned Japans great whaling history, well Australia has a whaling history too. We have an indigenous history with whales which goes back over 40 000 years (a few more than Japan's 2000 years), a European history since white invasion in which Australia participated in the near extinction of the Humpback whale, and now a new cultural relationship with whales in the form of communication and protection.

You are constantly stating that Australians cull kangaroos to extinction, but as I have said before four species are culled (for meat and if you go by your previous arguments in the most sustainable manner, ie from the wild and from large population groups not endangered).

This post started with Sara posting the fantastic news that Japan had offered an olive branch to Australia and 31 other nations which signed a demache presented to the Japanese government. If Japan would like to hunt whales for Traditional reasons as other indigenous cultures around the world do, then the small coastal villages which would have participated in whale hunting should go to the IWC and apply. If Japan wants to travel half way around the globe to hunt whales for commercial purposes they will have a fight on their hands. The so called whale research which is currently being undertaken by the Japanese whaling fleet is not research, it is an attempt to find a reason to be in Antarctic waters. With video footage and data collected by the Australian government aboard the Ocean Viking this season Japan will find themselves in the International Courts.

[centrajapan]

The USA is a whaling nation, as bowhead, beluga and gray whales are hunted by the Alaskan Eskimos. They take about 50 bowhead whales annually. The Alaskans also catch a few hundred beluga, 238 in 2000.
http://www.highnorth.no/IWC2007/default.htm

Now US is a hypocritical anti whaling whaling nation. Their stance is really hard to understand. They are the fist country to wipe a whale spiecies off the face of the earth, they hunt 50 bowhead every year but they are against Japan hunting minke and bowhead. Very well thought out, good rational logic by USA.

Australia is an anti whaling fanatic country. Each country when they become members of IWC sign a declaration.

The objective of the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling states that it shall “... provide for the proper conservation of whale stocks and thus make possible the orderly development of the whaling industry.” Furthermore, it states that depleted stocks are to be preserved, but that “... increases in the size of whale stocks will permit in-creases in the number of whales which may be captured.” All decisions made by the Whaling Commission are to “provide for the conservation, development and optimal utilization of the whale resources, ...shall be based on scientific findings” and “shall take into consideration the interests of the consumers of whale products and the whaling industry.” The IWC member nations are obliged to work actively towards the fulfilment of the treaty’s objectives.



If they do not agree with the IWC's objective then countries can choose not to sing a declaration. US has chosen not to to sign the Kyoto and a couple of UN human rights conventions.

Australia signs a document and work against what they have agreed upon. Honest people honour treaties. All international cooperation is totally dependent on pacta sunt servanda (the respect for treaties).

Therefore Australia should leave IWC.

Japan are adhering to the principle of sustainable utilisation, in accordance with the Whaling Convention. Australia is adhering to the principle of no utilisation, for what they on a cultural basis consider as “special animals”. It is the first position that is modern and sophisticated. The cultural imperialism practised by Australia is a concept of the past.

http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Management_Regimes/IWC/hp-ha.htm

Australia is looking at the Japanese as barbaric people that should be sunk in the bottom of the sea by their Navy vessels. Whn the truh of the matter is that Australia is barabric because they are practicing culture imperialism and disrespecting the document that they have signed under.

Japan has been giving out olive branches since 1986 when they agreed to stop hunting whales due to uncertanties in stock estimates. It's time for anti whaling cultist nations like Australia to take a hike.

Australia misses the point again.

http://www.icrwhale.org/071114Release.htm

Australia and other anti whaling fanatics show ignorance and disregard science.

http://www.icrwhale.org/070725Release.htm

[centrajapan]

If Japan would like to hunt whales for Traditional reasons as other indigenous cultures around the world do, then the small coastal villages which would have participated in whale hunting should go to the IWC and apply. If Japan wants to travel half way around the globe to hunt whales for commercial purposes they will have a fight on their hands. The so called whale research which is currently being undertaken by the Japanese whaling fleet is not research, it is an attempt to find a reason to be in Antarctic waters. With video footage and data collected by the Australian government aboard the Ocean Viking this season Japan will find themselves in the International Courts.

Japan is denied to hunt minke whales in local waters by IWC because of anti whaling fanatics like Australia. Japanese whaling is traditional because they have been hunting whales atelast 2000 years. No culture is static. Each culture evolves and it should be up to the people to decide how their own culture should evolve and not some outsider. Besides, modern technology makes whale hunting a more humane operation. I would be against hand held harpoons and rowing boats because that would make the death of whales more painful and not to mention the lives of a whaler to be less safe.

You say whaling should only be allowed if they do traditionally implying that they use primitive catching methods. What kind of an attitude do you have towards people who eat whales? Are you saying that if they modernise themselves they should stop eating whale meat?

Eating whale meat is far more environmentally-friendly than eating beef, lamb or pork. Harvesting nature's surplus means that biodiversity and habitat does not have to be destroyed and turned into agricultural land.

Whaling does not destroy the environment and is very energy efficient – producing beef requires much more energy than producing whale meat.

[Sarapva]

This is an argument that will probably keep going for years. Whaling nations will want to keep whaling, and will criticize any attempt by other nations to try to stop them. I looked over some of the High North Alliance web site, and it seems to be biased. This is an exerpt about the IWC meeting in 2007:

Japan’s plans to include humpback whales in their scientific whaling program will be highlighted. And since this is the first meeting after Iceland resumed ordinary commercial whale hunting, they may also be in for some attention, but Icelanders are Westerners so they may get away without any really harsh criticism.

When the US gets what it wants, it shows no gratitude. On the contrary, the US then focuses on its second priority – making life hard for the whalers for the next four years, until it once again must behave a short time to secure the renewal of the whaling quota.

Ignorance of the plight of the North Atlantic right whale demonstrates that all these save-the-whale groups are not guided by love to the whales, but hate for the whalers, Japanese whalers in particular. If they were guided by compassion and love, the future for the right whale would have been bright.

http://www.highnorth.no/IWC2007/default.htm

Although I can see some points are valid here, the High North Alliance seems to be fueled by anger. Going along in this vein won't get us anywhere.

[centrajapan]

Anti whaling seems to be fueled with anger, ignorance mixed with racist attitudes towards people who choose to eat a certain type of meat which is unacceptable for fanatics like yourself Sarapva.

Whales are no better than any other type of animal or worse so why the hysteria?

Here are some good lines which I agree with.

Humanity must take no more from nature than nature can replenish".

"While our survival depends on the use of other species, we need not and should not use them cruelly or wastefully".

"We have a right to the benefits of nature but these will not be available unless we care for the system that provides them".

"A use is sustainable if it is within the resource's capacity for renewal".

"Renewable resources are the base of all economies: people cannot live without them. They include soil; water; products we harvest from the wild such as timber, nuts, medicinal plants, fish, and the meat and the skins from wild animals; domesticated species raised by agriculture, aquaculture and sivilculture; and ecosystems such as those of the rangelands, forests and waters. If used sustainably, such resources will perpetually renew themselves. But because much present-day fishing, exploitation of forests and use of grazing land are not sustainable, the future of human communities is threatened. "

"Minerals, oil, gas and coal are effectively non-renewable. Unlike plants, fish or soil, they cannot be used sustainably."

"In most countries wild species and uncultivated ecosystems are an important resource. Harvests need to be regulated if they are to be sustainable. Local needs should have priority over external commercial and recreational uses."

[Sarapva]

I'm much more convinced that the pro-whalers are fanatics than I am that the anti-whalers are.

[Kyoto Returnee]

Australia is looking at the Japanese as barbaric people that should be sunk in the bottom of the sea by their Navy vessels.

Don't be ridiculous!

Australian's are very fond of the Japanese.

Just because we disagree with what 00.01% of the Japanese population wants, doesn't mean we wish to sink them with our naval vessels. LOL..

I honeslty find it difficult to understand how you come to this conclusion.

[Kyoto Returnee]

Anti whaling seems to be fueled with anger, ignorance mixed with racist attitudes towards people who choose to eat a certain type of meat which is unacceptable for fanatics like yourself Sarapva.

Anger at killing the whales for all sorts of reasons with the sole cause of having the whale in mind.

It has nothing to do with being racist or about fanatics.

America and Japan are heavily alligned with Japan, heck, Australia even sent extra troops to Iraq specifically to protect the Japanese troops as their rules of engagement did not fit the situation.

You can hardly say that Sarapva is a "fanatic" simply because she doesn't eat whale!

It honestly sounds like you are the fanatic!

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

I like whale cooking.
Deep-fried whale
I love sashimi of a whale.
I ate well in a childhood.

[Derfel]

I never in my life ate whale, but after this vegetarian propaganda (poor whales, why do they die when killed?), I feel like eating a whale or two lol.

[Sarapva]

I like whale cooking.
Deep-fried whale
I love sashimi of a whale.
I ate well in a childhood.

Do you agree with whale-hunting, Hiroyuki Nagashima? I know that might sound like a funny question, but I'm wondering what people in Japan really think about the whaling tradition. Do you think it's a good idea? Or do you think it's something that should be stopped?

Posted by Derfel:

I never in my life ate whale, but after this vegetarian propaganda (poor whales, why do they die when killed?), I feel like eating a whale or two lol.

It's not "vegetarian propaganda" - although if I had to be accused of something, that wouldn't be such a bad thing to be accused of. What I object to, besides killing the whales and lowering their populations, is the way they're killed, slowly and painfully. I think Denmark has a new way to kill whales that's quick and not so painful for the whales. But I think Japan is still using the old ways that prolongs their deaths and makes it an obviously painful trauma.

[Kyoto Returnee]

(poor whales, why do they die when killed?), I feel like eating a whale or two lol.

Did I miss something.

[kame]

Whale is not as important a part of Japanese diet today as it was few decades ago. In the abundance of tasty fishes, meats, and other foods that flood the Japanese market today, whales won't ever reclaim the share they had on the dinner table and may even eventually disappear as the Australian officials would like. However, just like Australians wouldn't like Americans telling them to stop eating kangaroos or crocodiles, the Japanese public instinctively reacts defensively when other countries force their dietary values on them.

In fact, I think the whaling opposition movement did more to awaken the nationalistic emotions to preserve the declining habit of whale-eating than anything else. Whaling, at least in Japan, was a declining industry that was destined to disappear, albeit slowly. Now that few foreign fanatics are trying to impose their cultural values in the absence of scientific background, whaling is a tradition that will be likely to survive a little longer. Look at what has happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. The dysfunctional IWC in which no conscientious negotiations based on scientific facts are possible, will only serve to strengthen the opinions of Japanse voters to abandon it.

In my opinion, the fastest way to effectively eliminate whaling in Japan is to keep the mouths shut and flood the Japanese market with premium beef with 100% BSE testing. Hey, Australians may even export premium kangaroo meat and let Japanese people know that there are much better meat to eat than whales. A Prime Minister shouting on TV telling us what not to eat is just ugly.

[centrajapan]

How can anyone with a sane mind dictate to others what to eat and what not to eat? Screw those guys who think of themselves as gods or some higher beings who can moralise other people's eating habits. Fanatics.

Did I miss something

Yes. I am sure you are a decent person and if I ever did meet you we could have a few good laughs together but when it comes to whaling you are completely clueless. The same with Sarapva. She is a nice, spiritual person but on whaling she is not.

[kame]

I'm a Japanese temporarily staying in the U.S., by the way.

Green Peace boats harrassing whaling fleets is one thing but a Prime Minister publicly threatening us to harass our ships with their Navy is utterly disgusting.

Most Japanese hardly ever eat whales anymore. With all these craps from few countries, I have seen people getting frustrated and actually more eager to order whale sashimis in izakayas. Popular mangas have dealt with whales as traditional diet and imposing of values by few countries (do you know how influencial mangas are in Japan?).

It may delay humpback whaling for a little, but it will just help increase support for whaling in Japan in the long run. Just leave them alone and keep feeding them really good beef (safety is VERY important too!) and kangaroos.

[Hopeanuoli]

No offence, but why did they start hunting humpback whales anyway?

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

A bone of a whale was found from a village trace of Jomon period before 4000 years before about 5500 years in Japan.

[Sarapva]

Thank you, kame, for those insights on how Japanese people see whaling. We don't have enough of that here. Being in the U.S. you're in a position to see both sides of this.

I would hope that Japan could listen to what other countries are saying without feeling defensive. They would see that people are just trying to protect the world, which belongs to all of us, and not randomly imposing their beliefs on others. Australia has created a whale sanctuary in the Southern Ocean, so it seems very logical to me that they would resent hunters there and try to fight them off. Any country would do the same in the same circumstances.

[centrajapan]

Being in the U.S. you're in a position to see both sides of this.

The only reason why Indians are allowed to whale is because they got screwed by white imperialists but since Japan hasn't got their culture ruined Japan should not whale.

Australia has created a whale sanctuary in the Southern Ocean, so it seems very logical to me that they would resent hunters there and try to fight them off. Any country would do the same in the same circumstances

No they have not. Japan can hunt whales there and that Southern Ocean is international and not Australian. Besides the sanctuary has no basis on a scientifical ground. WHales are not endangered and whaling is a green industry.

[kame]

Japanese people don't want whales to go extinct either. The whole purpose of IWC was to scientifically evaluate the sustainable level of whaling activity, which most Japanese who are interested in this issue don't think is what's happening in this dysfunctional organization.

We just can't believe that the anti-whaling sentiments of some Americans and Australians are based on scientific facts, but rather on instinctive prejudice against what they perceive as barbaric habit. Aussies should negotiate with whaling countries to come up with an acceptable number of humpbacks to be caught based on scientific facts. Just denouncing whale hunting altogether is and will be perceived as prejudicial in the eyes of Japanese public.

And again, the irony is that the anti-whaling propaganda is just fueling the often-subdued patriotisim within the quiet Japanese people to eat more whales!

[kame]

I would hope that Japan could listen to what other countries are saying without feeling defensive. They would see that people are just trying to protect the world, which belongs to all of us, and not randomly imposing their beliefs on others. Australia has created a whale sanctuary in the Southern Ocean, so it seems very logical to me that they would resent hunters there and try to fight them off. Any country would do the same in the same circumstances.

Observing what goes on at IWC, that's certainly not happening based on scientific facts, and it certainly doesn't sound convincing coming from a country that sends troops to every corner of the world to protect "democracy" and boycott any treaty that impose quantitative restrictions on CO2 emissions.

If you think harassing non-military vessels on international waters with heavily armed navy fleets because they "resent" people catching whales to study their ecology in the "sanctuary" that they unilaterally declared is justified, I am speechless.

[Sarapva]

This argument just goes around in circles. I don't think we're getting anywhere with this.

The fact is that most countries in the world are against commercial whaling.

[centrajapan]

This was from last year's IWC.

But in backing by 33 votes to 32. Japan and other whaling nations on Sunday for the first time in more than two decades won support for a motion criticising a global whaling ban, signaling they might finally have the muscle to challenge the moratorium.

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/423466/754729


Anti-whaling is not the majority world-view. In fact, at both the 1997 and 2000 Conferences of the Parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species, more than half the countries present (about 100 countries) supported the controlled use of minke whales. Many fishing nations including Norway, China, Korea, Russia and Iceland, as well as many developing countries support the sustainable use of all marine resources (including whales) and research programs that provide for science based resource management decisions.

http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Hunts/Other/ja-qu-an.htm

Do you think it is OK that Native Americans in Canada and USA hunts whales? Is it just Japan you have something against?

[kame]

If US and Australia (and other anti-whaling nations) really care about preservation of whales as a marine resource, they should work toward controlled commercial whaling rather than toward total banning. Whales should be regarded as renewable marine resource like tunas, salmons, and sardines which must be carefully monitored to prevent exhaustion but otherwise wisely used and consumed.

To single out whales and apply unexplicable standards that you wouldn't apply to tunas or salmons implies that there is something more than purely environmental intensions. Japanese people may seem obedient but aren't fools so they do sense the underlying cultural prejudice and react defensively.

[Kyoto Returnee]

Can't believe this thread is still going LOL..

I don't think the against group is siding with their governments, but rather simply expressing their own personal opinions like I am.

The for group appears to be influenced by the Japanese government somewhat, after all, are they not the one's who are so determined to keep slaughtering the whales?

I guess it has a lot to do with the way we were all brought up as kids, cultures, countries, etc.

We as kids in Australia were taught to respect, understand and ultimately appreciate the beautiful creatures.

Don't get me wrong here but they have performing whales at aquariums in Japan that I refuse to visit, so one minute the kids are being taught to laugh at them, the next eat them! Bit of a cliche ya?

I tend to think the way animals are treated in Japan, although not limited to, including many parts of Asia, is barbaric.

If you are in Kyoto, make sure you visit the local Kyoto Zoo if you can call it a zoo.

When I visited, a lion was housed in what was an approximate 4 x 4 metre room with a concrete floor and glass window.

Two seals were kept in a small pond with a 1 x 1 metre island.

Those animals may now be dead, just hope they haven't trapped a wild whale and now dropped it into the pond..

I have also heard reports about the capture of wild baby whales for Japanese aquariums, and then the poor creatures die due to their capture.

As for the guys against the Australian government pursuing Japan because each year, Japan defies a ban on killing whales in the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary - a massive feeding ground in the Antarctic Ocean that the International Whaling Commission has declared off-limits for commercial whaling - saying its program is exempt because it is for scientific purposes. Well, law is law just forgetting the poor whales for a minute.

[Derfel]

Australia states her opinion, thats fine, but as long as whales aren't endangered, as long as they're aren't going extinct whats the problem with whaling? Lets open some fund for cruelty against strawberries and cherry trees because they are being harvested cruelly ok?
If they're no harvesting more than they can eat, let them do it.
On the other hand, every country has its motives, and it is foolish to brand Australians dumb, idiots or whatever. They simply know what they want, and they're willing to achieve it by any means, you can't blame someone for that.

[pipokun]

No offence, but why did they start hunting humpback whales anyway?

The IWC debate on whaling originally started how we could preserve the natural resource.

We as kids in Australia were taught to respect, understand and ultimately appreciate the beautiful creatures.
Obesity, the result of unnessesary creature killing, is what your kids have to be taught.

[Kyoto Returnee]

The IWC debate on whaling originally started how we could preserve the natural resource.



Japan defies a ban on killing whales in the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary - a massive feeding ground in the Antarctic Ocean that the International Whaling Commission has declared off-limits for commercial whaling

Australia states her opinion, thats fine

Not Australia, the International Whaling Commission

Japan defies a ban on killing whales in the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary - a massive feeding ground in the Antarctic Ocean that the International Whaling Commission has declared off-limits for commercial whaling

[centrajapan]

How some animals are caged in Kyoto has nothing to do with why Japanese eat whales. Japanese are no more or less barbaric than people who eat or who doesn't eat whales.

Japan defies a ban on killing whales in the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary - a massive feeding ground in the Antarctic Ocean that the International Whaling Commission has declared off-limits for commercial whaling

Japan is not defying any kind of ban.

Japan’s whale research programs are perfectly legal. Article VIII of the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling (ICRW) specifically provides for members of the IWC to issue permits for the killing of whales for research purposes. Article VIII of the ICRW begins with the words “Notwithstanding anything contained in this Convention…” Further, both the moratorium and the Antarctic Sanctuary apply only to commercial whaling. Contrary to claims by Greenpeace, Japan’s whale research programs are not a violation of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS). Nothing in the UNCLOS diminishes or restricts in any way, rights provided by the ICRW.


http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Hunts/Other/ja-qu-an.htm

What Japan does is perfectly leagal. Japan is doing research and not a commercial hunt.

The right to issue research is enshrined in Article VIII of the 1946 Convention. Whilst member nations must submit proposals for review, in accordance with the Convention, it is the member nation that ultimately decides whether or not to issue a permit, and this right overrides any other Commission regulations including the moratorium and sanctuaries. Article VIII also requires that the animals be utilised once the scientific data have been collected.

http://www.iwcoffice.org/conservation/permits.htm

Not Australia, the International Whaling Commission.

Australia is defying the whole meaning of the IWC.

Sustainable use and proper management of all marine resources should be based on scientific findings. Indeed, Article V of the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling requires that it’s regulations be “based on scientific findings”.

Criticism of Japan is based on emotional reasons and it ignores both science and international law and is a rejection of the basic principle of IWC.

Australia signed a declaration that they pro,ised to work towards the best interests of the whaling industry based on scientific findings. Australia is workign against a document that they have signed under. They are the ones breaking the rules and they are the ones who ignore science and the only reason why they are against Japan is irrational emotional feelings. Because they look at whales as some special animal.

[kame]

I guess it has a lot to do with the way we were all brought up as kids, cultures, countries, etc.
We as kids in Australia were taught to respect, understand and ultimately appreciate the beautiful creatures.
Don't get me wrong here but they have performing whales at aquariums in Japan that I refuse to visit, so one minute the kids are being taught to laugh at them, the next eat them! Bit of a cliche ya?

Here in the US, kids are playing in the petting zoo with cows and lambs one morning and eating hamburgers for lunch. I guess there are no kangaroos or crocs in Australian zoos? The anti-whaling hysteria is a bit too much coming from a country where people shoot wild kangaroos for fun.

[Sarapva]

Do you think it is OK that Native Americans in Canada and USA hunts whales? Is it just Japan you have something against?

We've had this argument before, centrajapan - subsistence whaling by tribal communities is different from a modern country like Japan going out and killing hundreds of whales. Now you're going to argue that it's no different, and this argument will go around in a circle again.

Whales and dolphins are mammals, which makes them different from other fish like tuna and salmon. They're actually not fish.

Posted by Kyoto Returnee:

I don't think the against group is siding with their governments, but rather simply expressing their own personal opinions like I am.

The for group appears to be influenced by the Japanese government somewhat, after all, are they not the one's who are so determined to keep slaughtering the whales?

Thanks for clarifying this, Kyoto, and for staying in this argument that's a good test for patience! (I think the "accusers" on this thread are actually guilty of what they're accusing others of being!) I'm glad the new Australian prime minister is against whaling. This will probably get some changes made.

[centrajapan]

We've had this argument before, centrajapan - subsistence whaling by tribal communities is different from a modern country like Japan going out and killing hundreds of whales. Now you're going to argue that it's no different, and this argument will go around in a circle again.

I don´t think you have answered me though before but if you have previously I must apologize for not having read the answer to my question.

Whaling people across the world share pretty much the same sentiments be it Japanese or Inuits in Alaska, Norwegians, Indonesians. However it is anti tolerant whalers who like to put people in labels. Modern people cannot whale but primitive people can etc.

Inuits and Native Americans support Japanese whaling. So do Inuits in Greenland. Therefore it is a paradox that people like you don´t. This is imperialism.

Japan is not hunting any critically endangered whales.

Myth - Whales are all the same.
Fact - "The whale" does not exist. There are 80 species of whales. A killer whale is about as different from a gray whale as a wolf is from a buffalo.

Myth - Whales are almost extinct.
Fact - A few species of whale are threatened with extinction. But most species are extremely numerous. Even though several of the larger whales have been greatly depleted, the gray whale for instance is now back at its original stock size.

Myth - Modern industrial whaling has made several species extinct.
Fact - No species have been made extinct even though several species have been severely depleted. Industrial whaling no longer occurs. Today, whales are caught for food. Whale species that are endangered are not caught at all.

Myth - The whale is an intelligent creature.
Fact - There is no proof that whales in general or certain whale species in particular have intelligence distinguishing them from other animals.

Myth - The whale has a gentle nature.
Fact - Orca, or Killer whales, kill larger slower swimming whales.

Myth - Whales choose a partner for life.
Fact - Geese are monogamous - whales are essentially unfaithful.

Myth - Each whale has a distinct personality.
Fact - All animals have a distinct personality.

Myth - There is no humane way to kill a whale.
Fact - All modern methods for killing animals are humane. Killing methods used in Norwegian and Japanese whaling are the fastest and most effective in the world.


The World Council of Whalers respects the historic traditions of all societies that carry out whaling on a sustainable basis, and consequently the Council does not distinguish between commercial and non-commercial sustainable whaling. The World Council of Whalers exists so the views of all whaling nations are given representation; not just those of our members who sell whale products.
The Council recognizes that whaling is carried out today all over the world. Whaling has never stopped. Whalers, like farmers, fishers, trappers, and tappers, sell the product of their work: hunting for food is an essential part of some coastal peoples' livelihoods. These forms of livelihood exist in indigenous societies as well as non-indigenous societies. You can buy whale meat in Greenland supermarkets and restaurants and in Canadian shops, as well as in shops and restaurants in Japan and Norway.

http://www.worldwhalers.com/publications/media_pack.htm#front


Whales and dolphins are mammals, which makes them different from other fish like tuna and salmon. They're actually not fish.

And?

[centrajapan]

I'm glad the new Australian prime minister is against whaling. This will probably get some changes made.

Whie he OKs millions of kangaroos to get slaughterd because of pest control. And dingos too which are critically endngered but still regarded as pests. This double standard, a lack of understanding to people who eat a certain type of meat will get him the label and rightfully so the ignorant simple racist.

[Rose Selavey]

centrajapan,

again with the millions of Kangaroos left to rot and die in the out back! The information you have is old out of date and not correct, I have directed you to the department of foreign affairs web site before so you could become informed about Australia's practices regarding Kangaroos. But I'll recap here because you seem to have forgotten. Australia harvests four species of Kangaroo, all of which are harvested by licensed catchers, from the wild (a very sustainable method I'm sure you will agree) these kangaroos are used for either human food consumption or pet food. No food is left to rot. Australian gun license law allows a certain amount of animals to be hunted (pigs, deers, foxes, goats, rabbits and kangaroos) to name a few. These are hunted inside the law and have certain bag limits as with fishing in Australian waters, no endangered or venerable species is hunted.

Dingos in Australia come in a variety of breeds (just like whales there are many types!), some which are endangered others which are not. The dingos you have mentioned which were culled are those on Fraser Island. I was on the island not long after the cull. The reason they were culled was the population had exploded to massive proportions and the dingos were becoming over aggressive towards humans, because some irresponsible humans were feeding these wild animals. This did two things to the dingo population: changed the population size and created a connection for the dingos between human and food. Many other options were sought but in the end the only way to solve the problem was a cull. It was very sad, and now if you are caught feeding dingos on Fraser Island the penalty is high.

So can you please stop using this as an argument and go and read up on the facts, which does not mean u-tube or wikipedia.

[kame]

Australia harvests four species of Kangaroo, all of which are harvested by licensed catchers, from the wild (a very sustainable method I'm sure you will agree) these kangaroos are used for either human food consumption or pet food. No food is left to rot. Australian gun license law allows a certain amount of animals to be hunted (pigs, deers, foxes, goats, rabbits and kangaroos) to name a few. These are hunted inside the law and have certain bag limits as with fishing in Australian waters, no endangered or venerable species is hunted.

Great! Sounds exactly like what Japan and few other countries intend to do with whales that are not endangered. I am sure that most Japanese would consider killing kangaroos horrible no matter what the purpose is, but we don't go to IKC (why isn't there one?) and demand banning of kangaroo hunting, as we have the decency to respect what you eat is mostly your business.

[kame]

Whales and dolphins are mammals, which makes them different from other fish like tuna and salmon. They're actually not fish.

So are kangaroos, cows, pigs, and dogs (yes, there are people that eat dogs). I'd be careful with that kind of logic because that is exactly what would be perceived as arrogance based on prejudice and racism (I'm not implying that you are). Most Japanese (and I would assume other whaling peoples) would find it very hypocritical, to say the least, to argue that eating whales is bad because they are somehow superior to fishes or other marine creatures.

[kame]

Japan is surrounded by ocean which has been regarded as a precious source of food on which we live. We don't eat seafood because they are delicious, we had to and still have to rely on seafood to survive because we don't have the vast futile land to grow crops and herd cattles like US and Australia. Japanese people have mostly revered and respected (I do admit that there were periods of over-hunting, including certain whales) what they get out of the sea and hunting and eating seafood is deeply rooted in Japanese identity and culture. Scientific arguments on preservation of whales as marine resources aside, arguing that eating whales should be banned because they are "venerable" creatures is tantamount to insulting the Japanese culture. It's not going to work and will only serve to inflame even the most indifferent of the Japanese public.

As I mentioned before, whale eating is actually a declining habit in Japan. If you really care to save more whales from being hunted, it would be best to engage in rational negotiations on a sustainable level of whaling based on scientific facts, keep emotional arguments inside, and to export premium beef and kangaroo meat to please the Japanese dinner tables. Public insult by a Prime Minister would actually send more Japanese to the expensive whale meat restaurants (ironically, whale meat became gourmet food after the banning even though it used to be a cheap substitute for beef and pork) creating more demand for whale meat.

[Kyoto Returnee]

Here in the US, kids are playing in the petting zoo with cows and lambs one morning and eating hamburgers for lunch. I guess there are no kangaroos or crocs in Australian zoos? The anti-whaling hysteria is a bit too much coming from a country where people shoot wild kangaroos for fun.

Kame -

You seem to be constantly missing the point as does Centrajapan.

I am speaking for myself, my own opinions, NOT the Australian governement.

You are totally within your rights to keep attacking the Australian government as Australia is a democracy.

However, I'm not sure if you guys understand English fluently, but please keep on topic when replying to my posts.

I am not a member of parliament!

I would suggest you and Centrajapan write to them and express your rude, and arrogant statements directly, not with me.

You can access the website from here.
http://www.aph.gov.au/

Please keep the thread on topic and reply to user's post accurately as it is becoming very annoying.

I may also advise the two of you to do some mdoern day research on Australia for your own education and you may be very suprised how wrong many of your statements are.

The both of you appear to be going around in circles.

[Kyoto Returnee]

Whie he OKs millions of kangaroos to get slaughterd because of pest control. And dingos too which are critically endngered but still regarded as pests. This double standard, a lack of understanding to people who eat a certain type of meat will get him the label and rightfully so the ignorant simple racist.


Centrajapan:

I presume the word he, you are referring to the Australian priminister, Mr. Kevin Rudd.

How do you know that he "OKs" millions of Kangaroos to be killed humanely for "pest control" as you put it?

I'm not sure of your age, you do sound rather young, but I also remind you that you are posting on a Public forum that is searchable worldwide, and as such, I think it's best that you show respect to members, cultures and countries.

[pipokun]

Fake blood smeared on Japanese Consulate
ANTI-WHALING protesters have vandalised the Japanese Consulate in Melbourne with fake blood.
...
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22977156-5006785,00.html
The point is...
Meanwhile, Victorian police were not investigating.

I am lucky enough to live in a police state where the police arrests people no matter what political orientation you have.

[Kyoto Returnee]

The point is...


I am lucky enough to live in a police state where the police arrests people no matter what political orientation you have.

"Whaling in Japan"

What state do you live in?

[centrajapan]

Rose.

Kangaroo cull targets millions

Government experts have increased the numbers allowed to be shot by commercial hunters from over five-and-a-half million every year to seven-million.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1834061.stm

Nearly 6 million kangaroos are slaughtered yearly, making the massacres the largest butchery of wild animals in the world. Almost six million Australians died in 1999... Now there's a bulletin that would make quite a stir on the nightly news. The Australians in question are kangaroos, not humans, however, so the true story of Australia's war on wildlife wouldn't likely make your local news.

http://www.animalsvoice.com/PAGES/features/roos.html

Each night in remote areas of the Australian outback thousands of kangaroos graze peacefully, stand up on hearing an approaching vehicle, stare into a blinding spotlight, and are shot for their meat and skins.

The commercial kangaroo kill ‘quota’ for 2007 (the number permitted to be killed) is just over 3.6 million kangaroos. In the past several years the full quota of kangaroos have been killed in several States; just recently kangaroo shooters have taken to ‘camping’ on the doorstep of NSW wildlife authorities to secure their ‘tag’ allocation

http://www.animalsaustralia.org/issues/kangaroo_shooting.php

Indians in USA and Canada agrees with Japan on their whaling stance. White Americans only agrees that Indians hunt whales but not Japanese. Australians think it is OK to kill millions of kangaroos because they are regarded as pests but do not want Japanese to hunt whales for food.

These anti whalers are funny people.

Question.

Since Indians can hunt whales, how about the people in Caribbean they also hunt whales. Can they whale? Since the Caribbean has a tropical climate they should nto whale?

I get it you guys believe whales are the greatest animals on this planet and you are hell bent on shoving your religion down people's throats. When people stop eating whles what animal is next on yur agenda?

Do you guys have a top 10 list of the greatest animals on this planet?

You are aware of the fact that whaling is eco friendly because the natural habitat does not have to be turned into agricultural land?

[Kyoto Returnee]

Rose.

I get it you guys believe whales are the greatest animals on this planet and you are hell bent on shoving your religion down people's throats.


Centrajapan:

I think it's you trying to push your opinion on everyone else.


When people stop eating whles what animal is next on yur agenda?

Dolphins

[centrajapan]

I think it's you trying to push your opinion on everyone else.
Not really. I am not trying to impose my eating habits down people's throats like you do and other anti whaling racist fanatics.

Thanks for your answer though.

1. Whales
2. Dolphins
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Whales are more worth than any other type of animal even including dolphins?

Do you think Inuits should stop eating whale meat? Inuits support Japan on their whaling stance. So do the various Caribbean islands.

So Japan needs to stop eating whales first? AFter Japan who else needs to stop eating whales? I am trying to understand your views although I don't agree with them.

[caster51]

hypocrisy of IWC

why do they make double standard ?

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=WpAzzJiWgO8

Japan conceded to stop whale investigation.

then Japan offered that Japan want IWC to admit a traditional, small-scale whale hunting for 4 towns like Taiji fisherman's town as same as alaska..

[centrajapan]

Anti whaling policy is full of flaws because they have one sets of rules for one people and another sets of rules for other people. Its outrageous that people in Taiji are denied to hunt minke whales yet people in Alaska hunt bowhead whales.

Countries like Australia USA seems to have a ranking system of animals and then a ranking system of people too. Where as whaling nation value whales no more or less than any other animal and do not seem to differentiate between the various people hunting whales.

Countries like USA, Australia say. You can use leather products from this animal and some people can eat from that animal but those people over there can not eat from the same animal as those people over there.

[kame]

Kame -
You seem to be constantly missing the point as does Centrajapan.

I am speaking for myself, my own opinions, NOT the Australian governement.


I am just presenting my argument against your opinion, not the Australian government. As I said, your opinion (to which you are totally entiled to) would be perceived as prejudicial to the eyes of many Japanese people, and that is just what I am trying to convey. Prejudice and racism is not based on the intensions of the offender and often go unrealized by those who offend (everybody can be prejudicial, including and especially Japanese people. Don't take it too personally). I just want to point out that some anti-whaling arguments are perceived that way by many Japanese.

[kame]

As I read the bbc news that centrajapan cites, I fail to see what the fundamental difference is between hunting millions of wild kangaroos (commercially) and hunting whales in a sustainable way. Both are mammals (seems that matters to some people, I don't know why), both are wild, both are eaten and other parts used effectively, both are adorable creatures to many people (if you poll Japanese kids for popularity, I bet kangaroos would win 9 to 1), both are valuable as tourist attraction, and the list goes on.

Could someone present a convincing argument that would justify one type of hunting over another? If you say you oppose both, I think that's an opinion that I can respect.

[centrajapan]

If you understand Japanese. Please listen to this from a Japanese perspective.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=W8hJTrSG7sg

From the pro whaler himself . On behalf of Japanese government Mr Morishita.

[Sarapva]

Most Japanese (and I would assume other whaling peoples) would find it very hypocritical, to say the least, to argue that eating whales is bad because they are somehow superior to fishes or other marine creatures.

I think this is an assumption that people are against whaling because of thinking of them as superior to other animals. This is a "whaling" subforum, so we're discussing whales, not other animals. I'm against causing pain for any animal or human. I can accept a hunter killing an animal quickly more than I can accept how animals are kept in cages to be eaten or for their fur.

What is the quick way of killing whales? It seems that because of their size, killing them would take a lot of work, and therefore take time, drawing out their suffering.

[kame]

I'm against causing pain for any animal or human. I can accept a hunter killing an animal quickly more than I can accept how animals are kept in cages to be eaten or for their fur.
What is the quick way of killing whales? It seems that because of their size, killing them would take a lot of work, and therefore take time, drawing out their suffering.

Are you saying that you wouldn't be against hunting whales if they can be killed quickly enough to minimize their suffering? Or would you have other excuses to argue against sustainable whaling even if whales can be killed humanely? Because if it is the latter, then I don't see much point in taking the discussion to specific killing methods.

[kame]

I think this is an assumption that people are against whaling because of thinking of them as superior to other animals. This is a "whaling" subforum, so we're discussing whales, not other animals. I'm against causing pain for any animal or human.

Sacrifying any animal for food involves taking lives and it's natural to take other animals as examples to discuss how one practice compares to another. You can't just apply one standard to what you eat and apply a completely different standard to what somebody else eats. Therefore, I don't think it is irrelevant to discuss how other animals are consumed in a comparative context to how whales are consumed.

I am still at a loss as to why you had to mention the obvious fact that whales are mammals and fishes are not?

[Kyoto Returnee]

Are you saying that you wouldn't be against hunting whales if they can be killed quickly enough to minimize their suffering?

No, I'm not saying that at all.


Or would you have other excuses to argue against sustainable whaling even if whales can be killed humanely?

Yes and No.

[Kyoto Returnee]

I am still at a loss as to why you had to mention the obvious fact that whales are mammals and fishes are not?

I think that's one important point. Don't be at a loss.

[Rose Selavey]

Centrajapan,
The four species of Australian Kangaroos are estimated to have a population of between 50 and 70 million, this depends on the conditions. If Japan wants to hunt whales for food, then they need to go through the appropriate channels.
As to anti-whalers being funny people and that Australians are racists you need to qualify your judgments. Some Australians are racist, some Japanese people are racist but by implying a whole nation is racist due to one policy or action is ridiculous. As you continue to imply all Australians are racist due to an anti-whaling stance you miss the point and loss all validly in your arguments.

[centrajapan]

I take it as a compliment that I miss the point seen from anti whaling fanatics like yourself. Australians are racist for opposing Japanese whaling on a cultural preference and not based on sceintific facts. They are racist because they by force use irrational sentiments to change other people's eating habits.

Australia has made more mammals gone extinct than any other country on this planet. A number of kangaroo spiecies have already gone extinct in the short time since the ANglo Saxon prisoners colonised Australia.

Unlike the whale hunt carried out by Japan with hi tech weapons to make sure the kill is done in a most humane manner there are no guidelines for the kangaroo cull. The kangaroos are then left to rot. It is also estimated that
there are lot more kangaroos shot dead illeagaly by poachers.

The symbol of Australia. Kangaroos are getting the same treatment as the Indegenous Australians. They are killed for fun. Its ironic that Australia has made it top priority to make Japanese stop eating whale meat yet at home treat the Kangaroos like ****.

There are 80 whale spiecies. Most of them are not endangered. Industrial whaling no longer happens. Whaling today is done for food and not whale oil. Whale meat is ecological and the whaling industry is a far more green industry than any type of domestic farming.

Whales are no better or worse than any other type of animal. Therefore as long as the hunt is sustanable it is not any worse to hunt whales than any other type of animal on this planet.

The debate is stupid as long as it is a question of whether eating whale is right or wrong. It should be how many whales can be hunted without having negative effects on the stock estimates.

Also..

Whales consume much more fish than human beings. While whales should not be blamed for the over fishing done by human beings it is just as absurd to protect a non endangered single spiecies in a multi spicies eco system.

The whale fanatics ( I like to call them religious cultists) have simply taken the whale out of the eco system due to cultural preference when the fact of the matter is whales are a art of the eco system just like every spiecies on this planet.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

centrajapan,

There are racist everywhere in this world. It has something to do, with not liking certain races or even hating them.
My Turkish neighbours never greet or talk to my son and daughter ( adopted from India).
They do greet me because I am white. They look down on darker skinned people.
Yes that is very narrowminded and they are racist.

But what has racism to do with whaling, fishing, shooting and whatever?
Are Canadians racists too? They kill baby seals just for the fur.

I have a question: "Do Norwegians eat whale meat?"

[centrajapan]

But what has racism to do with whaling, fishing, shooting and whatever?

Australia is racist for opposing Japan's whaling. Their stance has little to do with science but emotional sentiments. They moralise Japan because Japanese eat whales. Thats racism. They want Japan to stop hunting whales as in eating them. They want to change Japan's cusine due to their own cultural preference. Thats cultural imperialism.

[Kyoto Returnee]

centrajapan,

But what has racism to do with whaling, fishing, shooting and whatever?
Are Canadians racists too? They kill baby seals just for the fur.

I have a question: "Do Norwegians eat whale meat?"

Well said Elizabeth:122:

[kame]

Nobody cares to answer my question?

As I read the bbc news that centrajapan cites, I fail to see what the fundamental difference is between hunting millions of wild kangaroos (commercially) and hunting whales in a sustainable way. Both are mammals (seems that matters to some people, I don't know why), both are wild, both are eaten and other parts used effectively, both are adorable creatures to many people (if you poll Japanese kids for popularity, I bet kangaroos would win 9 to 1), both are valuable as tourist attraction, and the list goes on.
Could someone present a convincing argument that would justify one type of hunting over another? If you say you oppose both, I think that's an opinion that I can respect.

[Sarapva]

Nobody cares to answer my question?

I think this question was also on another thread that I answered there. Kangaroos belong to Australia - whales don't belong to anyone.

I mentioned whales being mammals because someone mentioned tuna and salmon as being in the same argument.

[centrajapan]

You being an animal lover. Do you see the hypocracy?

[Sarapva]

I think I see what you mean here, centrajapan - but there is no hypocrisy. We're discussing whales, and I mentioned they were mammals, which means they're more like humans than other fish. That was to add to the argument, not to make a statement that one kind of animal is "better" than another. All living things deserve to be protected by us humans, including other humans. Of course we don't even protect all humans yet, much less animals, but I think this world is gradually moving in that direction.

[Rose Selavey]

Centrajapan

Your statements are the most racially motivated on this forum. I have no respect for you or what you say. Your arguments are steeped in anger and aggression, maybe too much mercury in your diet. Your show disrespect to past indigenous Australians by comparing them to kangaroos you are no better then the racists that perpetrate such horrendous acts.

[centrajapan]

Rose.

I think you are an idiot with simplific double morals which would be good on a comedy show. I hope not all Aussies are as dumb as you are but listening to the Oz government I am not holding my breath.

I never said anything about Indegenous Australians killing kangaroos. But you are against the indegenous Japanese killing whales.

Get the difference? Get a clue.

Go home. That is a prison in Hull.

[centrajapan]

I never compared the Indegenous people of Australia to kangaroos. How did you come with that conclusion? Oh, I get it. You don´t speak English. Your natvive tongue. My 3rd language.

[kame]

Centrajapan
Your statements are the most racially motivated on this forum. I have no respect for you or what you say. Your arguments are steeped in anger and aggression, maybe too much mercury in your diet. Your show disrespect to past indigenous Australians by comparing them to kangaroos you are no better then the racists that perpetrate such horrendous acts.

Your exact words in another thread in response to centrajapan

"Imperialist Japanese pigs."

http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=541930&postcount=57

He's not even Japanese and you are attacking Japanese? I don't think centrajapan is racially-unbiased but neither are you.

[Sarapva]

Okay, this is not getting anywhere. We can insult each other as long as we'd like, but we're no closer to any agreement here.

[Rose Selavey]

The symbol of Australia. Kangaroos are getting the same treatment as the Indegenous Australians. They are killed for fun.

Correct me if I'm wrong but read the above sentence.

and Kame,

I did write that because in comment to centrajapan's previous thread Imperialist aussie pigs, i have simply been replacing any racist statment made by centrajapan and replacing it with another country other than Australia, get the picture?

Rose.
I think you are an idiot with simplific double morals which would be good on a comedy show. I hope not all Aussies are as dumb as you are but listening to the Oz government I am not holding my breath.
I never said anything about Indegenous Australians killing kangaroos. But you are against the indegenous Japanese killing whales.
Get the difference? Get a clue.
Go home. That is a prison in Hull.
You call me an idiot you can't even spell. And well done on the 3 languages, but maybe you need to brush up on your English.

[centrajapan]

When you are able to speak as many langaues as moi until then you should clap it. I agree with you though. My spelling sucks. I understand 5 langauges. How many languages do you understand? I don't need to brush on my English because I am able to out debate you in your native tongue my 3rd language. Actually I am brushing up my English with this constructive discussion.

Australians used to go n.... hunting into the 1960s. Today they go kangaroo hunting. Its barbaric and they are against Japanese eating whales. Please. I hope you see the double standards.

[Rose Selavey]

When you are able to speak as many langaues as moi until then you should clap it. I agree with you though. My spelling sucks. I understand 5 langauges. How many languages do you understand? I don't need to brush on my English because I am able to out debate you in your native tongue my 3rd language. Actually I am brushing up my English with this constructive discussion.
Australians used to go n.... hunting into the 1960s. Today they go kangaroo hunting. Its barbaric and they are against Japanese eating whales. Please. I hope you see the double standards.
Don't you see how much disrespect you are showing to those people who have died? Australians don't use the term 'nigger' as you so thoughtfully blanked out, so even though you think you know it all you don't. You don't know the halve of it. Aboriginal people are still dying today, you have no understanding or empathy for humans, so I can see how you would have no empathy for whales. You think by googling Australian Aboriginals on the internet will get you all the information you need for an argument, but you need to know more then mere facts to sustain a good argument.

[centrajapan]

Yes yes yes. If Aborinagal people still are dying why not make a better effort for them instead of using energy on stopping Japan to eat non endangered ecological whales?

I have never been to Australia. Id like to. But I have read a little Australian history and it is not all sunshine.

[Rose Selavey]

Yes yes yes. If Aborinagal people still are dying why not make a better effort for them instead of using energy on stopping Japan to eat non endangered ecological whales?
I have never been to Australia. Id like to. But I have read a little Australian history and it is not all sunshine.

No it is not all sunshine, but a new kind of history is beginning to be written in Australia in an attempt to include indigenous Australians into the historical record. The stolen generations are finding their people again and this can only be beneficial to all Australians. The efforts I make to improve the lives of indigenous people in Australia I do every day, the first of which is zero tolerance of any sort of racism.

[Chi65]

No it is not all sunshine, but a new kind of history is beginning to be written in Australia in an attempt to include indigenous Australians into the historical record. The stolen generations are finding their people again and this can only be beneficial to all Australians. The efforts I make to improve the lives of indigenous people in Australia I do every day, the first of which is zero tolerance of any sort of racism.

Thanks, Rose Selavey.
My uncle lived many years with them and also collected their language and songs, and passed on some tapes as well.

And the very last sentence of yours is the best.

Someone ignorant here (C) does not do a good job for Japan in his unpolite ways, I feel sorry for Japan.

[centrajapan]

I feel sorry for Germany and Australia because by being against Japanese whaling you are not even aware that you are a racist. Ignorance is a bliss. Japanese got good whale songs too.

What kind of shoes do you wear? Ignorant german ones? I am projecting your idiotic views.

[Chi65]

Go to a doctor to fix your upside down views

[centrajapan]

Like wise. Please come with a better argument. On a side note. Why should I go to a doctor? Because whales are beautilf animals unlike cows?

[Chi65]

Maybe you need some glasses to see, that you were the first to ignore and not answer.

[centrajapan]

If I need glasses please tell me why I need glasses. Just what is it that I am ignoring?

[Chi65]

Go back to the other thread. A Japanese would not act this way at all.

[centrajapan]

Just copy and paste what you are trying to say and stop sepaking in circles.

I feel like shredding your outdated DDR views and calling you a stupid Nazi ***** but that is rude so I woun't unlike you who is telling me to see a doctor.

[Chi65]

No, you can already walk on your own legs, or still, I hope.

By the way, you are once more completely on the wrong side, I am a wessi and also like my "former DDR" friends.

[centrajapan]

ich habe ein cool das handy. Speak English?

[kame]

and Kame,
I did write that because in comment to centrajapan's previous thread Imperialist aussie pigs, i have simply been replacing any racist statment made by centrajapan and replacing it with another country other than Australia, get the picture?

Yes, it means that you are no better than centrajapan, and you happen to choose Japanese in your insult even though the person you were reacting to was not a Japanese. Some of centrajapan's comments do sound racial but that "imperialist Japanese pigs" definitely is based on racism, even in the context.

[Sarapva]

So you're blaming Rose for mimicking centrajapan, but cen.japan gets away with ten times as many racist comments. The only ones on this forum making racist comments are the ones complaining that others are making them.

[centrajapan]

I am mimmicking Rose because her attitudes are racist and she is not even aware of it. Here she is rallying how evil Japanese are on whaling yet seem to praise the Australian kangaroo massacre. It is this double standard which is quite hard to understand and do seem based on racism. Or pure irrational ethnocentric emotions.

I atleast back up my claims with facts. Thats much more than what Rose does.

[kame]

So you're blaming Rose for mimicking centrajapan, but cen.japan gets away with ten times as many racist comments. The only ones on this forum making racist comments are the ones complaining that others are making them.

No matter how bad centrajapan trashes you, it's sad that Rose had to top centrajapan by writing "you imperialist Japanese pigs". He does trash talk while he does give rational thoughts once in a while. If you don't like centrajapan, just ignore him. Don't get BENEATH his level and call somebody else "pigs".

After all, mimicking someone's bad behavior is not an excuse in the real world, is it?

[kame]

Deleted due to double posting

[Sarapva]

No matter how bad centrajapan trashes you, it's sad that Rose had to top centrajapan by writing "you imperialist Japanese pigs". He does trash talk while he does give rational thoughts once in a while. If you don't like centrajapan, just ignore him. Don't get BENEATH his level and call somebody else "pigs".
After all, mimicking someone's bad behavior is not an excuse in the real world, is it?

It's just ironic that we let all those comments go by, but the minute someone else makes a similar comment, that person is jumped all over. Unfortunately, I think that is how it is in the "real" world.

[kame]

It's just ironic that we let all those comments go by, but the minute someone else makes a similar comment, that person is jumped all over. Unfortunately, I think that is how it is in the "real" world.

You see, I would have ignored it if Rose just called centrajapan or Norwegians "imperilaist pigs", but instead she chose to trash Japanese. If you don't see some serious racism in that, you probably have some racism in you too.

[Chi65]

Wrong target.
Why don't you say the same to C's much more obvious violence?

[kame]

Wrong target.
Why don't you say the same to C's much more obvious violence?

No Rose chose the wrong target by directing her hatrid against Japanese instead of her offender. I don't meddle into someone else's quarrel but Rose's racial slur crossed a line for me.

[Chi65]

No Rose chose the wrong target by directing her hatrid against Japanese instead of her offender. I don't meddle into someone else's quarrel but Rose's racial slur crossed a line for me.

I am neither blind nor silly, young man. . .respect denied now

You better go ALL the way back to the source of beginning racist remarks. If you can't, you have loads of prejudices yourself.

[Sarapva]

That's right, kame - why doen't centrajapan's "aussie i---- p--" remark offend you? He "crossed the line" quite a few times.

[Rose Selavey]

Yes, it means that you are no better than centrajapan, and you happen to choose Japanese in your insult even though the person you were reacting to was not a Japanese. Some of centrajapan's comments do sound racial but that "imperialist Japanese pigs" definitely is based on racism, even in the context.
I was still trying to get centrajapan to understand what racism feels like if you view his profile he is also Japanese. And I will continue to replace centrajapans comments with other countries until he gets the picture. Comments like centrajapan make me angry, by placing all people of one nation in the same basket you are being racist and discriminatory. I have never attacked the Japanese people, simply asked them to become informed, and have only pleaded with the Japanese government and the whaling fleet to stop the hunt. This is not racism, and I would like to see the villages which a re so reliant on whaling in Japan to go the IWC to receive a quota of whales to be hunted by their village, I'm sure they would not get the fifty they are asking for but they may get a few.

And I know this is again off topic BUT their are only four species of kangaroo which are harvested in Australia yes, it is a large number but it is a regulated industry conforming to Australian law and international law. The industry was out of control about 30 years ago when it was shut down by English animal rights activists, and because of their efforts the animals are now killed in a more humane way. Kangaroos are well adapted to Australian conditions and since the clearing of trees (this is what made the population boom not a lack of predators) the grasslands in Australia have become plentiful, this has in turn made certain species population boom (kangaroos can have 3 to 4 babies on the go at once) and their soft feet are the most benifical for the soil in Australia, rather than hard hoofed cattle and sheep.

[Chi65]

I don't even think, C. is a Japanese, and if so, then a very "disturbed" one.
He can say some very good things, if he is clear though, but his ego-hot-headedness and fixed views and bad behaviour destroys it all.
Pity in a way, because in his thread about where you wish to live, he is really(!) fine and I sign everything most happily, also from own experiences.

[Sarapva]

I don't even think, C. is a Japanese, and if so, then a very "disturbed" one.
He can say some very good things, if he is clear though, but his ego-hot-headedness and fixed views and bad behaviour destroys it all.
Pity in a way, because in his thread about where you wish to live, he is really(!) fine and I sign everything most happily, also from own experiences.

Yes, that's right - I've also seen some very reasonable posts by c.j. I just wish that in these threads we could have a back-and-forth argument/discussion without regard to nationality and with no "you believe this - therefore you are that" remarks.

[Kyoto Returnee]

You see, I would have ignored it if Rose just called centrajapan or Norwegians "imperilaist pigs"

I think you have ya balls twisted!

I took Roses message as a little nudge to get Centrajapan to quiet down with his silly racist remarks, after all, we all know whaling has nothing to do with racism.

[Chi65]

Yes, that's right - I've also seen some very reasonable posts by c.j. I just wish that in these threads we could have a back-and-forth argument/discussion without regard to nationality and with no "you believe this - therefore you are that" remarks.

Thanks and
general rant, because it comes to my mind:

There is one thing a very respectable Japanese once told me:
we see things all the way round (or from all sides)

Taking your teapot into your hands and observing it by turning it all around in the tea ceremony probably mirrors this.
And it is a preparation for further talks afterwards. They start with that preparation which also mirrors old native indian calm face to face before the actual palaver.

Its a conscious and goodwilling state of mind, that makes one see things for what they are with respect for each other.

Thats not easy in our loaded times, but still a goal to be able to come to.
You cannot say anything about others, unless you have observed it thoroughly from all sides, with respect and not wild projections.

In any case of false offence (I am a former Aikidokin), there comes this: back to sender.

Which only means, try again in another way, if possible, without harming this time.

And maybe adding some maybes to it rather than being so sure.
Maybe it all looks a bit different then and may even change again?
If we can grant this for everyone, maybe there is more than one way to find. That goes for us as well as for the others.
Islanders are a special chapter in this, but even in nature observations you will find constant changes to find new balances, if not, you will be hurt or/and hurt others...and that can also be worldwide with a local problem.
And then its no "racism" to bring it onto the table, with different views, also worldwide.

[centrajapan]

Its a conscious and goodwilling state of mind, that makes one see things for what they are with respect for each other.

You are not respecting whaling cultures. Thats my point and still is my point.

You cannot say anything about others, unless you have observed it thoroughly from all sides, with respect and not wild projections

You have not observed butt crack. And only projecting.

Islanders are a special chapter in this, but even in nature observations you will find constant changes to find new balances

Yet you are a bigger contributon to global warming thus changing the balance of nature and wanting to change other people's habits and not your own. That is cultural imperialism innit?

[Sarapva]

You are not respecting whaling cultures. Thats my point and still is my point.

This is where you're wrong, centrajapan. You're mistaking opinions for disrespect. It sounds like the only way you'll believe you're getting respect is if people agree with you. That's not how it works. We can respect you and still disagree, but it is you who have a problem respecting. You need to "stop looking at the speck in others' eyes and look at the tree trunk in your own eye".

[Chi65]

Exactly, Sarapva. I cannot take all that above from C. seriously, simply because its not true and only his problem of view. With a bit of goodwill, everyone can see this.
I said clear enough, what I respect and what not and why and when. He only has to reread this.
The rest is just plain childish and unnecessary to answer to.

His problems of understanding others are his problems alone and more a psychological one.

But he has nevertheless good and interesting informations, that I will read, amongst other sides, of course.

[Derfel]

I will state one thing, I respect every culture equally, including my own, and you see, im not gonna respect any culture more than the rest, not even if they've been whaling before actually coming out of the ocean and growing limbs.
If you make racist comments, that happens, can't do a thing, thats how things are. But at least have the spine, and take the racist rubbish from others too.
Last time I checked this site was called JREF - Japan Reference and not PWC - Praise Whaling Cultures.
I just don't get it, people on the earth don't give a damn whether they're a whaling culture or not. Its like digging up some old manuscript which says that your ancestors used to make elliptic clay dishes, and start worshiping them cause they made elliptic clay dishes (BLOODY HELL, ELLIPTIC CLAY DISHES, AIN'T THAT AMAZING? WHOA, THE REST STFU, ONLY ONES WHO MADE ELLIPTIC CLAY DISHES MAY SPEAK!).
Its like eskimos telling you to quit whaling cause you didn't build iglus.

[Sarapva]

Yes, I agree that every person and animal (every living thing) should be treated with respect. I know we're a long way off from this in the world right now, but I think as a whole people are learning that this is the way we need to be, for our own sake.