Discrimination/racism in Japan vs non-Japan

[Astroboy]

Because of advice from Dutchbaka, I would like to start this thread....

In order to study something, multilateral approach must be essential for better understanding. This is very scientific approach indeed.

Today we see many racism in the world, and we must fight with racism. However, racism is often found in the countries where the people claim anti-racism against other countries.

Any comments about racism/discrimination in Japan vs non-Japan countries are welcomed.

eg. I had a look at racism in XXX and I also experienced the same racism in Japan, or I know racism in XXX but I don't see it in Japan. Then we can see more behind the scene.

Thank you for your cooperation. :blush:

[Astroboy]

Violence at Cronulla Beach as 5000 people gather
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Violence_at_Cronulla_Beach_as_5000_people_gather

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Cronulla_riots_2_-_no_lebs.jpg/200px-Cronulla_riots_2_-_no_lebs.jpg

NSW Deputy Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione says police believed neo-Nazi and white nationalist groups were among the crowd. "That in fact is something that we're following up," he told the Nine network.

Skinheads wearing boots, braces and neo-Nazi emblems were among the protestors. Three far-right organisations: "Australia First Party", "Patriotic Youth League (PYL) and the Newcastle-based "Blood and Honour" - all handed out pamphlets. PYL describes itself as a "radical nationalist" group with links to the German-based skinhead group Volksfront, British Nationalist Party and the New Zealand National Front.

I thought that Australia is a peaceful country of kangroos & koalas, but the reality is not look like, while I don't see NEO-NAZI & their racial conflict in Japan. WHY did Asutralian become such racists? or always racist?

[Astroboy]

Aboriginal Holocaust

http://aboriginalrights.suite101.com/article.cfm/aboriginal_holocaust_document
This text from a 19th century Queensland newpaper needs no comment. The blatantly racist, genocidal ideology speaks for itself. But has anything changed? ....

I thought "Holocaust" was a name of TV program about Jewish in Europe, but Australians have longer tradition of holocaust. Probably history of Australia must be a history of Holocaust against local Aboligines. I am more interested in Australian mentality --- They are heavily against Japanese whaling, telling Whale is intelligent & cute, but they send Aboligines into transparent cages with bloody history.

Maybe their mentality is like this: Whale is Better than Aboligines. Killing Whales is not allowed but Killing XXX may be OK.

Very confused.

[Kyoto Returnee]

Violence at Cronulla Beach as 5000 people gather
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Violence_at_Cronulla_Beach_as_5000_people_gather

I thought that Australia is a peaceful country of kangroos & koalas, but the reality is not look like, while I don't see NEO-NAZI & their racial conflict in Japan. WHY did Asutralian become such racists? or always racist?

Hello again Astroboy:

It would appear that you have a thing with Australian's discrminating and being racist's.

I wasn't in Australia at the time of the Cronulla Riots.

Cronulla is a coastal suburbs South of Sydney.

My parents have good friends that live in a Southern suburb named Blakehurst.

I may add, these friends are of Greek Descent, and my parents coming from the UK, met this couple on the cruise liner, the Canberra when they migrated to Australia.

These riots, shocked all residents of nearby Southern Suburbs and were sprked by some Lebanese Yankees/Yahoos/Yobos.

It was Islam/Muslim orientated, as neraby is a suburb named Lakemba which has a large Mosque and Muslim community.

I believe a lot of the hatred stems from world affairs then and now, although I really cannot justify your constant accusations of Australia being racists, simply because of these riots.

Australia is a large country. This small town is like a needle in a haystack in Australia.

If you go to Darwin in the Northern Territory, you will see it is dominated by many Asian and Island cultures. You would not survive their if you were a racist.

Many suburbs and towns in Australia are very ethnicly different, so to say that Australia is racist is simply ridiculous.

To be a racist in Australia would mean that you would have a very hard time living here as it just would not work due to our country being so culturally diverse and spread out.

The entire country was built on migrants from China and Europe.

Of course, all these people within Australia, may have their own racist attitude, although it is up to each individual to justify it.

Like I said, racism in Australia is against the law. Are you getting my comments as I have mentioned this previously to you but you continue to fail to respond.

Discrimination is something entirely different to racism in many ways.

I believe manyt people dicriminate in some way, shape or form, although it's done in a discreet, personal and quite manner. It generally leads more towards favouritism over here.

Once again, discrimination is against the law within Australia, that's not to say that some people do not discriminate.

As for aboriginies, they are looked after. They have free housing, hostels, money, education, healthcare, their own police, social workers, counsellors, land, tourism, etc.

I see aboriginies all around me everyday where I live. They are all happy, fine, all is good, no problems.

On my bike ride back from the convenience store a few days ago, the bag containing my milk was breaking and going to fall of my bicycle handlebar.

I rode past a house, and noticed a happy aboriginal family playing in the front garden. I approached, said g'day, and politely asked for a shopping bag to update the breaking one containing the milk.

We had a good yarn and laugh, and all was good.. Did not matter who or what they were, they were nice people..

Like I said, I had never experienced racism and discrimination on a personal level until I lived in Japan.

I lived in Kyot which is very proud and conservative, so IO guess I experienced more than let's say Tokyo, which I have no experience with.

I think you will find if you get into Japanese law, you will find that non Japanese in Japan would have a vwery hard time winning legal cases as like I said, discrimination in Japan is rife, it's open, exposed, it's not a secret..

You seem quite young to me and I am guessing you may be very naive and do not undertsand the truth, simply becuase you do not want to..

[tokapi]

Like I said, I had never experienced racism and discrimination on a personal level until I lived in Japan.




Would you elaborate further,detail some racially-motivated incidents you experienced over there.:wave:

[Astroboy]

Kyotoreturnee: Thank you for your advice

Australia is a large country. This small town is like a needle in a haystack in Australia..... so to say that Australia is racist is simply ridiculous.

You better keep this words in your mind when you hear/experience racism/discrimination in Japan. In short, it is dangerous to generalize.

You seem quite young to me and I am guessing you may be very naive and do not undertsand the truth, simply becuase you do not want to..

Same to you. If you don't want to see ...., you can view that all is fine in your country.

Sleep well.

[centrajapan]

Its hard to experience racism if you are say white in Australia. I am not sure what your race is but... If you are a white Norwegian chances are probably not that high that you will experience much racism in Norway. It would be irnoic to tell a white Norwegian. Oi white boy. Go home. I am home. You go home.

But if you come from a Middle Eastern or Japanese decent chances are higher to face discrimination in Norway. Japan is still a very homogenous country and the majorit of them want to keep it that way. Where as in Europe people are encouraged to think multi culturalism is a good thing. There are now 3rd generations Norwegians with Middle Eastern ethnicity. They are Norwegian more or less. I regard them as Norwegians. From time to time I get some hillbilly speaking to me in English in Norway and I reply in Norwegian and then they look embarassed. IN Japan I got that too. They would speak English to me and Id answer in Japanese and they would say why do you speak so good Japanese? Well I am Japanese. Thats just one of those things that at times irks me a little.

[Astroboy]

centraljapan: Thanks for your interesting experience.

Except Tokyo and tourists in Kyoto or similars, foreigners are still rare in Japan. People don't expect foreigners (or foreign-looking persons) to speak Japanese. So speaking in poor English and replying in good Japanese often happens. And People may look at those foreigners with much curiosity. Well .... sometimes must be annoying, but cannot be helped.

Please enjoy your life in Japan rather than exploiting racism.

[Sarapva]

In the U.S. discrimination is illegal too, though we have come a long way in a short time. There also a mixture of original nationalities here, but I think most of the people who used to be discriminated against (and still are in some places) are African-Americans. Schools and public places were segregated until only the 1960s. When I was in school, it was alongside whites, blacks, Asians, etc.

I'm "white" I guess, but I had good friends in school who were black. My parents' next door neighbors are a really nice black family - you couldn't ask for better neighbors than they are. Inter-racial couples and marriages are more and more common these days.

I think some of the worst discrimination in the U.S. has been toward Native Americans. They lost their land and now most live on reservations in different places around the U.S. Things still aren't equal with them.

[centrajapan]

Americans, Australians like to exploit racism in Japan because they like to project their history to make themselves feel better.

[Goldiegirl]

Wow, I guess you haven't read my post that say there is definitely racism and segregation in the USA. To me it's natural, just like when I get stared at in Japan or people move away from me on the train. I am different, there aren't that many different looking people in Japan overall. It's not legal in the USA to discriminate against people based on there race, creed, sex, age, or really anything else. I do believe in Japan they can post job openings with age limits? The "No Foreigners signs" not acceptable or legal in the USA. Not renting apartments to foreigners not legal in the USA. My Japanese husband, without residency here in the USA was able to rent an apartment, get a cell phone and house phone, turn on the gas and electricity, without having to have a cosigner or having an American citizen vouch for him. I wouldn't be able to do the same in Japan. As for the history of the USA my family wasn't in the USA until the 1920's, so they weren't a part of the history. And really if you knew Americans better, most don't even know HISTORY! They can't tell you what day the 4th of July stands for, they can't even pick their country out on a map. You sure do give them credit for being smart! :)

[hideway]

My-flag-is-better-yours boy strikes again. :p

Just to state something that seems to confuse some people. When someone is against something, like racism, it really doesn't matter if in his country the thing that someone is against exists or not.

[centrajapan]

I think racism is different from place to place. In some places some things can be regarded as racism while in other places the same topic will not be regarded as racism.

Not that I am the most political correct person on this planet and I am very opinonated. But when foreigners keep on ranting on about Japan this and that this and that. Then there comes a limit and as a defense mechanism you start to attack their country. I should have said some Americans and some Australians and not Americans and Australians.

Everyone sees things differently and from their angle. What is true for them does not have to be true for others. From my perspective. Americans seem to be much more sensitive towards their flag than the Japanese or Europeans. They also take their national anthem much more serious than others. It seems sacred where as others just look at their flag as a piece of cloth.

If anyone has seen English tabloid news paper and their football reporting. For anyone who isnt English it is quite shocking. When England play Germany there are these head lines stating. We beat you in 2 world wars and now we beat you again. If I was German not sure if I would like it.

Due to the history of Jews in Europe it is much more tabboo to criticise Jews than Muslims for instance in Norway. Then last year some Scandinavian drew a carricature of the Prohet and Muslims in Scandinavia and around the world got very upset. This was the classic example of freedom of speech versus blasphemy/racism. It sure did not unite the people but rather polarised the people. I could see that incident from two different angles.

In Europe each year people mark the Chrystal Nights. To honor the Holocaust victims but then when someone started waving the Israeli flag there broke out riots.

Its quite tricky. Then I think some people are more proud of their nationality than other people and I think some nationalities are more proud of their nationality than others. Americans and Australians seem to be very proud of their country from my perspective where as Germans seem to be more laid back about their nationality than both English and Scandinavians.

Someone was telling me that the reason why Canadians have their flag on their back pack when traveling is not to tell everyone that they are Canadian but rather to tell everyone that they are not American. Is this ture?

In Japan if I said I was Norwegian at times people would start to speak German. I thoght to myself what an ignorant ****. I got this from time to time by not Japanese but other westerners. And then I also got. Where are you from and Id say Norway and they would say you are the funniest Norwegian I have ever met. Or but you are not even white. Id be like. hmmm. while smiling on the outside.

[MadamePapillon]

I wonder if you really had to start a whole new thread with the sole purpose of pointing out the racist problems of western countries (specifically Australia) in an effort to make Japan seem better.

There are plenty of threads that have discussed the subject inside and out, maybe you could have revived one of them or even have put a different spin on the subject. Maybe something pointing out the positives of how far each country has come in dealing with rasicm and how far left you think they have to go.

As much racism as there is, you can't deny many countries have improved vastly in a very short time in their efforts to put aside differences and make all races feel welcome. There's room for improvement yes, but to focus on the actions of a idiotic group of neo-nazis is degrading the success of the country as a whole in accepting people of differing races and cultures.


EDIT:

Someone was telling me that the reason why Canadians have their flag on their back pack when traveling is not to tell everyone that they are Canadian but rather to tell everyone that they are not American. Is this ture?

It's partially true, there are times when Canadians are embarassed to be associated with America so we feel the need to distinguish. Also, Americans often wear the Canadian flag when going abroad to avoid being hassled for being American.
But people sometimes just wear the flag to let people know they are Canadian. You wont often find any canadian that isn't proud of their country and don't want people to know where they are from (even immigrants have this attitude after living here for awhile and have said so to me).
You'll often see people wearing the Canadian flag here....I've seen people getting drunk and singing the national anthem on the skytrain, it wasn't long before everyone was laughing and singing along....good times XD

[centrajapan]

I wonder if you really had to start a whole new thread with the sole purpose of pointing out the racist problems of western countries (specifically Australia) in an effort to make Japan seem better.

Have you seen how much Kyoto Ret critises Japan?

The race ritos in Australia was not just about these gangs. The reason why they became gangs in the first place was that white Australians did not give them the respect they dersved and the Lebanese took that respect into their own hands. And it just escalated and then the bubble bursted. The Lebanese Australians felt alienated from society.

[Chi65]

Hehe, as for Germans in Japan, we often have a kind of bonus, even if we did not always had good times with Japan, (yet I read here lately, that even if imprisoned, the germans were handled with extra care).
And spare me the details of the "best" times during our sidings under Hitler in this thread..
But in general, Germans seem to be welcome, as long as we are not seen as coming from the US at first hand. Our german story with Japan is long and mostly good. That helped a lot, I suppose.
Since I additionally have a certain outer resemblance with some filmstars (not half as beautifull, but the type seems to appeal, and I was often told, whom they had in mind, and it was the same ones every time), this never gave me any feelings of discriminations over there, in contrary.
Since I have mainly foreign friends myself (out of sheer curiosity) and many asian ones amongst them (they reacted in the same way in China and Korea, by the way), I am additionally very familiar with their behaviour and tend to just let them come by themselves, which they happily do. Any loud or broad actions are not my thing anyhow, but I love to laugh and join in, when asked to.
I have as many friends in Japan, that have lots of foreign friends, but those are mainly artists. . .

This may nevertheless not be the norm, but I visited Japan 5 times and made only and only good experiences myself.

(the my flag is better-one here is already known, thus I do not feel to discuss Germans with him, he is once more so much off the road and generalising in that relation, that it only makes me laugh. . .)

[Astroboy]

My-flag-is-better-yours boy strikes again. :p
Just to state something that seems to confuse some people. When someone is against something, like racism, it really doesn't matter if in his country the thing that someone is against exists or not.

I don't deny you. :relief:

[Chi65]

Ok, if you meant Astroboy, I meant someone else. . .

[Astroboy]

From my experiences in Europe, North America and Asian countries, I always think why our language - Japanese - does not have enough words for bashing others or insulting others comparing to other launguages.

When I was a kid, I was a big fun of Hollywood movies, and it was good experience to learn "American" English somewhat. However, the words acters/actress use were very limited to so-called dirty words. Typically "F**", "Mother F**", "Dam it" "Sh*t", "Bull S**" more and more.
So I thought USA must be an interesting country.

On the other hand, when I look at Japanese language, dirty words are rare. Probably "Baka" or "Aho" (Stupid) only. It is very difficult for us to translate dirty English words into Japanese because we don't have proper equivalent in Japanese.

I am not linguistic scholar. So maybe I am wrong, but this is one of Japanese characteristics. i.e. Being not Good at Bashing Others/Discrimination.

What do you think?

[Glenski]

Today, 3:11, centrajapan wrote:Americans, Australians like to exploit racism in Japan because they like to project their history to make themselves feel better.

Yesterday, 11:30, centrajapan wrote: Its different US and Japan. Ill stop this Japan rules US sucks talk. http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5063&page=4

Stick to one side, will you?

Goldiegirl wrote:
It's not legal in the USA to discriminate against people based on there race, creed, sex, age, or really anything else. I do believe in Japan they can post job openings with age limits?This may not be true anymore. One major site advertising for university positions has stopped that aspect of ads.

The "No Foreigners signs" not acceptable or legal in the USA.Same here, but they are still up.

Not renting apartments to foreigners not legal in the USA. My Japanese husband, without residency here in the USA was able to rent an apartment, get a cell phone and house phone, turn on the gas and electricity, without having to have a cosigner or having an American citizen vouch for him. I wouldn't be able to do the same in Japan.Sure you can. It's not easy, but human rights advocates have made it happen, and the practice is growing.

[Goldiegirl]

My husband didn't a human rites advocate to get what he needed. It may not be legal, but if those things are allowed and not enforced saying they are illegal really means nothing!

[Chi65]

From my experiences in Europe, North America and Asian countries, I always think why our language - Japanese - does not have enough words for bashing others or insulting others comparing to other launguages.
When I was a kid, I was a big fun of Hollywood movies, and it was good experience to learn "American" English somewhat. However, the words acters/actress use were very limited to so-called dirty words. Typically "F**", "Mother F**", "Dam it" "Sh*t", "Bull S**" more and more.
So I thought USA must be an interesting country.
On the other hand, when I look at Japanese language, dirty words are rare. Probably "Baka" or "Aho" (Stupid) only. It is very difficult for us to translate dirty English words into Japanese because we don't have proper equivalent in Japanese.
I am not linguistic scholar. So maybe I am wrong, but this is one of Japanese characteristics. i.e. Being not Good at Bashing Others/Discrimination.
What do you think?

Well, thats an interesting aspect indeed.
And additionallly, if someone like me comes to Japan, just smiles and cannot speak Japanese very well, but also does not use such american bashings in general, I will be handled with friendly respect. I see. . .another point.
But I felt so good in this and never needed any offence or defence, and that again speaks at least (if not more) as much for the Japanese, that I met, I think.

But I learned something in Korea first, amongst my friends there:
many games go via helping each other up in contrary to westerners (even if artists), who did not understand this and continued with their degrading games and also tried them on me when I was successfully cooperating with the Koreans. Well, the Koreans simply went on, so did I, and we managed.

This I also expected in Japan, it was not exactly the same, but almost in a way and more so in other ways even (it included respect for my own privacy, which was a bit of a problem in Korea and even more so in China).
I don't mind being watched, visibly or not, but if immediate respectfull help comes without asking, when I am really sick or in trouble, I am very thankfull of course. And Japan was extremely "helpfull" on that level, also when I really needed to be alone, for which I am very thankfull, still.
You feel handled like a human, not just like a foreign curiosity then.
Or not at all, if there was an aversion or understandable unsure feeling maybe, but never degrading.

No words for this? Could be. But anyhow, thanks, it works. :-)

[MadamePapillon]

From my experiences in Europe, North America and Asian countries, I always think why our language - Japanese - does not have enough words for bashing others or insulting others comparing to other launguages.
When I was a kid, I was a big fun of Hollywood movies, and it was good experience to learn "American" English somewhat. However, the words acters/actress use were very limited to so-called dirty words. Typically "F**", "Mother F**", "Dam it" "Sh*t", "Bull S**" more and more.
So I thought USA must be an interesting country.
On the other hand, when I look at Japanese language, dirty words are rare. Probably "Baka" or "Aho" (Stupid) only. It is very difficult for us to translate dirty English words into Japanese because we don't have proper equivalent in Japanese.
I am not linguistic scholar. So maybe I am wrong, but this is one of Japanese characteristics. i.e. Being not Good at Bashing Others/Discrimination.
What do you think?

Well, this could also be because English is a melding of several different languages so we have a greater vocabulary. Maybe Japan is just more polite than us in not saying it to your face but that doesn't mean they aren't thinking it.
Japan has different behavioral requirements than us. To maintain harmony and not rock the boat. I've never been to Japan but I don't think it would be acceptable to tell someone to f**k off and then start fighting. :relief: Not that it's acceptable here but...sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
Personally, if someone is in my face I wont hesitate to start throwing out the 'naughty' words. I've been known to punch people in the face when they get on my last nerve...but hey, at least I'm not a bullsh*ter.
It's just cultural differences. I don't believe the Japanese are any less discrimanitory than the rest of the modern world simply because you don't have swear words. You just don't air your views in public like we do...well, except with the 'no foreigner signs', I guess :relief: Maybe you just go about it differently.


Here's some possible origins of the F-Word
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/38520

[Astroboy]

Dirty words are not exclusve feature of English. Maybe Russian is worse. Plus Chinese language may be more or less. I also learned that Dutch language includes a series of dirty words.

I don't know Arabic, Hindi, Spanish, German, etc. But I imagine they will be more or less the same.

In short, except Japanese language, All may be similar. Thus, they are all good at bashing/discriminating each others, while Japanese are left in open-mouthed amazement.

Does this make sense?

[Goldiegirl]

I think any word can be made foul, it depends on how you use it. So maybe you don't have exactly foul words, but they can be spoken with a foul mouth and intentions.

[centrajapan]

African Americans are over represented in prison cells and have a higher crime rate lower income etc etc. Just because there are signs that says No Blacks does not mean that US does not have any sort of racism. Infact the social injustice in a country like US or Australia is much more severe than Japan.

[Astroboy]

I think any word can be made foul, it depends on how you use it. So maybe you don't have exactly foul words, but they can be spoken with a foul mouth and intentions.

I agree with you.
But question is .... WHY language of English or others could have developed "straight dirty words" during their long history of languages, and WHY Japanese language couldn't develop it.

Maybe Japanese are too slow? :p

[Mars Man]

I'm not going to waste any time at all in calling a spade a spade, here. This thread is totally non-functional in nature. What in the world is this 'race' thing anyway? Not a single sentence has been offered to define the term, not a single notion of what is being studied about it has been offered by the OP.

What are the limits of the study field? What is the hypothesis being worked towards? What action can be taken, suggestion be forumlated, and/or benefit be gained in learning that discrimination in any form can overlap with some concept called 'race?' (if, in fact, there is really any such thing.)

I strongly suggest that the OP set functional terms for this thread.

[Astroboy]

African Americans are over represented in prison cells and have a higher crime rate lower income etc etc. Just because there are signs that says No Blacks does not mean that US does not have any sort of racism. Infact the social injustice in a country like US or Australia is much more severe than Japan.

I can imagine that. Although I have never experienced racism in overseas, Life in those countries must be tough. Must be very stressful.

Such stressful life in USA and Australia may have made some people very sensitive about racism. If racism is rare or less, people may not be able to think of that. :cool:

[Chi65]

All I can say, that all of my friends in Japan are obviously not racists, also other skins and cultures were accepted, even invited, also on big festivals, also supported via help and exchange-programs. I happened to be invited to such groups about Africa, for example, and very much enjoyed their multi-cultural meetings and great speeches of the obviously very adored (and brilliant!) Africans, one in Kyoto, one in Matsue, by the way. . .the leaders on all sides were all relatively young and the atmosphere as inspiring, as could be.

There are always these and those, and of course, I have heard about them.

But even in the Netherlands I once had an older man spitting out, when he realised, that there were germans around, be them just friendly young people. . .

[MadamePapillon]

I can imagine that. Although I have never experienced racism in overseas, Life in those countries must be tough. Must be very stressful.
Such stressful life in USA and Australia may have made some people very sensitive about racism. If racism is rare or less, people may not be able to think of that. :cool:
It's not as bad as you might think. I've heard several times that Japan is more a stressful place to live and work.
Actually, I think all the discussion on racism is giving an over exagerrated view on things. It's talked about a lot but I actually haven't seen a real example of racism here in quite a while.

[Astroboy]

I'm not going to waste any time at all in calling a spade a spade, here. This thread is totally non-functional in nature. What in the world is this 'race' thing anyway? Not a single sentence has been offered to define the term, not a single notion of what is being studied about it has been offered by the OP.
What are the limits of the study field? What is the hypothesis being worked towards? What action can be taken, suggestion be forumlated, and/or benefit be gained in learning that discrimination in any form can overlap with some concept called 'race?' (if, in fact, there is really any such thing.)
I strongly suggest that the OP set functional terms for this thread.

Thanks for your advice. I thought it was fairly clear but I hereby state objective of this thread again.

1. Looking into racism/discrimination in comparison to Japan and non-Japan.
2. Gaining an understanding of the background of those racism/discrimination.
3. Determining the solution for better world.

Japan is not perfect country, but personally I believe that Japan is much less rasim/discrimination than others. "Comparison" must help stand out real issue behind the world's racism/discrimination issues.

Fortunately, this is Japan Forum, and thus always Japan is subject. And Japan is unique in terms of racism/discrimnation.

I DO hope this thread will help find out some key solutions for future better world. :p

FYI. Definition of racism/discrimination:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

[nice gaijin]

What is the point of trying to compare how much racism there is in Japan versus other places? Are we trying to establish which place is "better"? This seems like an exercise in futility.

[Astroboy]

What is the point of trying to compare how much racism there is in Japan versus other places? Are we trying to establish which place is "better"? This seems like an exercise in futility.

..Meaning that racism in Japan/discrimination is useful but comparison is useless? If you are interested in Japan's racsim/discrimination only, please stay in the thread "Racism in Japan/discrimination".

[Sensationalist]

Prejudice would be a better definition than the term "racism" because prejudice is something we all can relate to more clearly. Racism is a bit too faulty in reference, I think. Japanese are not intrinsically rascist to the core, they are more like xenophobic and prejudice, like most westerners tend to be.

[Mars Man]

In a sense, Astroboy san, you do have the upper hand here, in that this particular thread is not under the more specific Serious Discussions sub-forum. That said, I have almost always and yet intend to encourage careful thought and as full as possible presentation and argumentation in the more 'serious' related topics that folks present. I hope to make it clear that I am only speaking a fellow JREF member here.

Therefore, I will test the fundimentals of your presentation and investigation.

Would you deny, Astroboy, that it is true that to define the term 'racism' we first have to define the concept of the word 'race?'

I think you will find that we can run into problems there. Of course the arguments on this mater have not settled in the certain science fields that are concerned with such, but it is fairly clear enough that we can no longer just say there is this 'race' and then there is that 'race.'

Senationalist san has moved it in the more correct direction here; I will push that a little further. What we are talking about is anthopological in-group bonding conditioning.

I hope to hear answer to the question above.

[Astroboy]

Mars Man san

To be honest, I don't understand you well. But I can understand that you must be unhappy about this thread. So, I suggest you to close this thread. As being an ordinary Japanese, I don't want argument.

Thank you very much for your post.

[Glenski]

Goldiegirl wrote (about "no foreigners" signs):
It may not be legal, but if those things are allowed and not enforced saying they are illegal really means nothing!Exactly what I and others have been trying to say for years here in Japan. Why is it that the country signs an international treaty against discrimination, yet does not enact any laws to support that signing? Answer (from the horse's mouth): The laws would be too difficult to enforce. Amazing logic, eh?!

Astroboy restated:
I thought it was fairly clear but I hereby state objective of this thread again.

1. Looking into racism/discrimination in comparison to Japan and non-Japan.
2. Gaining an understanding of the background of those racism/discrimination.
3. Determining the solution for better world.
My reply:
1. Please define more precisely what "looking into" means. Your post is far too general to have any meaning in its replies.
2. Ah, background. Now there's at least something tangible we can all work on. One aspect of Japan's background that leads/led to discrimination is its own isolation for 200-250 years, and its ensuing lack of overt cooperation or involvement in international matters thereafter.
3. Solution? Peace and understanding, of course, but perhaps you were looking more for strategies leading to such...? Much harder to come up with, especially with very stubborn minds in the government holding the reins.
Example:
Koizumi's administration was ready to institute English as a mandatory subject in elementary schools. It was already there in a general form. Enter PM Shinzo Abe, and things go 180 degrees. No compulsory English in el ed. Reason given? The same old song and dance about Japanese being unable to process 2 languages at the same time, that the Japanese culture would suffer, etc. Totally unsupported B.S., of course, but it shows dinosaur thinking springing from fear of what internationalization would really bring to this country.

[Mars Man]

I see, Astroboy, language could be a little bit of a problem, and I will take the blame for most of that...my style can be very rigid at times. (like maybe 90% of the time)

The OP, along with just why this thread came into existence speaks for itself. I have no reason nor any present authority to close the thread, but hope to work towards as full and balanced an educational-like discussion of the matter as possible.

The point I have been presently working on, is that there may well be no such thing as a 'race.' If we adhere to that understanding, the word 'racism' has no meaning, and we must find a diferent word. I posit that we should use the word 'out-group differentiation.' Then, we must look into psychological models to attempt to understand the pressures for such.

Those are some very valid points you have raised there Glenski san.

[Sensationalist]

Koizumi's administration was ready to institute English as a mandatory subject in elementary schools. It was already there in a general form. Enter PM Shinzo Abe, and things go 180 degrees. No compulsory English in el ed. Reason given? The same old song and dance about Japanese being unable to process 2 languages at the same time, that the Japanese culture would suffer, etc. Totally unsupported B.S., of course, but it shows dinosaur thinking springing from fear of what internationalization would really bring to this country.

Japan's condition is unique in the fact that it doesn't need English at all. Let me reiterate, the Japanese do not need English. Schools should offer English as an elective,however, among all of the rest of the Indo-European languages, but it should not be a requirement Glenski.

In U.S. schools and in other western countries, since you like to draw references from internationalization, offer a variety of different languages as an elective, but none offer English as a requirement. Learning English doesn't mean you are any more internaionalized than say if we were forced to learn French or German.

Your other analogy is completely out to lunch. You asserted that Shinzo Abe was outdated in his thinking because he espoused traditional thinking and nationalism in public schools makes no sense whatsoever. This is Japan with 12 million of its inhabitants who arose from the scorge of war only to rebuild itself into a super power. What's wrong with embracing ones own cultural virtue and traditions. I mean, westerners like yourself, embrace western fundamentalism and then you try to shove it down everybody's throat. Maybe what you believe in is unsupported BS...

[Mars Man]

I think there may be an angle that you might possibly have missed there, however, Sensationist san.

While it can well be reasoned to be true that Japanese children of that age do not need English (as in being a required subject in the curriculum) there is no gain in offering a defense towards not allowing it to be offered as an elective (school systems tend to follow the leader here) using shown to be false premises.

[MadamePapillon]

@ Sensationalist

English has become something of a common international language. It's become a communication tool and many many non-english speaking countries use it to converse with people around the world.

This isn't westernization being shoved down anyones throat, it's common sense. With todays world it's logical there would be one language that would be commonly used in international discussion and affairs rather than everyone having to learn 10 different languages. The language picked just happened to be a western one. English is extremely versatile with a wide range of words and sounds (which makes fairly flexible in regards to differing accents). Plus it gives the speaker the ability to be directly to the point with little room for misinterpretation and with no need for honorifics or social and gender distinctions, so it's a fairly logical choice all things considered.

[centrajapan]

Japan's condition is unique in the fact that it doesn't need English at all.

Very true. People dont need English in Japan. Given the fact that you need some place between 6 to 9 years to be able to read news papers it is harder for Japanese to learn English than others not to mention the two languages are completely different. Plus being able to speak English in Japan does not mean much.

As for the defenition racism or not. Anti-Semitism is regarded as racism but Jews are not a race it is a religion. So technically speaking Anti-Semitism is not racism and neither was Hitler but there is a wide spread agreement that Anti-Semetism is racism and Hitler a racist.

Israel is probably the most racist country on this planet. USA is the biggest supporter of the most racist country on this planet so you could say US too is a very racist country for supporting Israeli racism. Or perhas say they are apologetic to Israeli racism.

USA is probably the most nationalistic people on this planet. It seems as if some of them believe they are the only free country on this planet when the fact is they are less free than most other western countries. They have very limited free speech. Its American freedom. Its less free than standard freedom.

In USA the government has gone around the world kidnapping Arabs and put them in detention centers. Kept them there without a charge for years. If that isnt racism then the word has no meaning.

[Taiko666]

Japan's condition is unique in the fact that it doesn't need English at all.

You're saying that everybody in the world needs to speak English except the uniquely unique Japanese, which is of course ludicrous. Is this what you meant to say?

I mean, westerners like yourself, embrace western fundamentalism and then you try to shove it down everybody's throat.

Who's shovelling what down whose throats exactly?

Or do you regard campaigning for anti-discrimination laws as 'western fundamentalism' ? Meaning that legalized discrimination is 'fundamentally' a Japanese thing?

All these racism/discrimination threads boil down to the same thing: there are racists everywhere in the world, but only in Japan is racism and discrimination entirely legal. In this instance, Japan really is 'unique.'

[centrajapan]

All these racism/discrimination threads all boil down to the same thing: there are racist everywhere in the world, but only in Japan is racism and discrimination entirely legal.

Israel is worse because they confiscate Palestinian land and houses. They kick them out and say. This land is Jewish. I dont think in Japan they go to your house and kick you out of your house, terar down your house and say. This land is Japanese state property.

There is probably alot more stealth racism in US. Racism in a subtle manner difficult to detect than the overt practices of discrimination that once was dominant in US but still there are signs everywhere in US of the social injustice.

Japanese dont go around kidnapping people like US and North Korea either.

[Astroboy]

I am understanding a little bit about racism/discrimination in Japan. Some points out the following:

http://www.debito.org/japaneseonlyecover.jpg

I think this must be bad to almost all foreigners.
But I also feel sympathy with those Onsen-owners in Hokkaido. They must be troubled with Big Russian fishermen/used car dealers and Japanese regular customers avoid.

Probably they need to be patient for whatever they like to do.

But is this racism/discrimination? are there any solution?

[MadamePapillon]

Two wrongs don't make a right, Centrajapan.

Just because Japan isn't as in-your-face with discrimination as the US or Israel, that still doesn't make the Japanese brand of discrimination any less offensive or wrong.

If Japan was so much better than the rest they would be doing what they could to erase discrimination rather than trying to excuse it by pointing out all the crappy things everyone else is doing.

[centrajapan]

Two wrongs does not make a right but it puts things in perspective. THe discrimination in Japan is nothing compared with Israel or USA.

[Astroboy]

Israel is worse because they confiscate Palestinian land and houses. They kick them out and say. This land is Jewish. I dont think in Japan they go to your house and kick you out of your house, terar down your house and say. This land is Japanese state property.
There is probably alot more stealth racism in US. Racism in a subtle manner difficult to detect than the overt practices of discrimination that once was dominant in US but still there are signs everywhere in US of the social injustice.
Japanese dont go around kidnapping people like US and North Korea either.

As far as I know, Jewish people are quite loyal to their own origin, identity and religious. And because of such strong identity and they didn't have their home land, they had long been discrimnated in Europe.

From my point of view, Europe are virtually fortunate because NAZI almost perished them and the suvivors left Europe after WWII. Plus Europeans could have affixed all the blames to German, and Europeans push all troubles to Palestines and middle east. Racial troubles in Israel must root in Europe, I think.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

I think this must be bad to almost all foreigners.
But I also feel sympathy with those Onsen-owners in Hokkaido. They must be troubled with Big Russian fishermen/used car dealers and Japanese regular customers avoid.


That is very true Astroboy, one must always look at all sides of a situation and why such things happen.
Rascism and discrimination is very ugly, but being a judge is not enough.

[Astroboy]

Personally I believe .... the rest of the world, except Japan or some others, is quite strict on religion.

I was very surprised to see TV program featuring US Christian fundamentalists. They were strong supprter of G. W. Bush.

Jewish and Islamic are often dominated by fundamentalists.

They continue to bash each other by telling "My God is the best, but yours are not". I think there must be something religous aspect behind the racism/discrimination.

Japanese are quite flexible about religious thing, and in fact I and my family do not belong to any religious group.

[nice gaijin]

..Meaning that racism in Japan/discrimination is useful but comparison is useless? If you are interested in Japan's racsim/discrimination only, please stay in the thread "Racism in Japan/discrimination".
You misunderstood me. I never said there was any use for racism. I said that I didn't see the point in trying to compare anecdotes to establish which country has more discrimination than another. The only discussion with any merit is identifying racism and discrimination and working towards eliminating it, not trying to claim the title of "more/less racist than some other country."

You said you're an "ordinary Japanese," what is that supposed to mean, that you believe in nihonjinron? (it's not that I believe that the average Japanese believes in nihonjinron, but that to make such a statement, it seems that you do) I think it'd be fair to say that you haven't experienced discrimination as an "ordinary Japanese" in Japan; have you been to any other country and experienced discrimination? What gives you the authority to say whether Japan is more or less racist than the next country? Again, what is the point of making such claims?

[centrajapan]

10 least religious countries according to this poll.

1. Sweden (up to 85% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)
2. Vietnam
3. Denmark
4. Norway
5. Japan
6. Czech Republic
7. Finland
8. France
9. South Korea
10. Estonia (up to 49% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)

http://www.gadling.com/2007/08/23/least-religious-countries/

According to this poll Norwegians are the least religious people in Europe and thank god for that.

Norwegians least religious in Europe
A new study suggests that one in 10 Norwegians say they're not religious at all, while most say they're only moderately so. That makes Norwegians the least religious in Europe.
The survey, financed by the European Commission, asked respondents to rank how religious they were on a scale from zero to 10.

Only 9 percent of Norwegians questioned ranked themselves with an "8" or higher, reports newspaper Vaart Land.

None of the other 15 countries participating in the survey scored so low.

http://atheism.about.com/b/2003/10/02/norway-not-very-religious.htm

As for hating Jews. Europe has been discriminating Jews for centuries. It was very ugly what Europeans were doing. But now due to anti Israelism I hear anti Semitism is yet on the rise. There have been incidents in Norway where the Syngagogue in Oslo was fired with an automatic weapon by extremists.

Christianity has not traditionally been a very tolerant religion.

And the treatment of Palestinians by Israel is also very ugly.

[Astroboy]

You said you're an "ordinary Japanese," what is that supposed to mean, that you believe in nihonjinron? (it's not that I believe that the average Japanese believes in nihonjinron, but that to make such a statement, it seems that you do) I think it'd be fair to say that you haven't experienced discrimination as an "ordinary Japanese" in Japan; have you been to any other country and experienced discrimination? What gives you the authority to say whether Japan is more or less racist than the next country? Again, what is the point of making such claims?

Sorry. That was a cynical joke - my habbit. :p

[centrajapan]

What gives you the authority to say whether Japan is more or less racist than the next country? Again, what is the point of making such claims?

It helps to put things in perspective.

[MadamePapillon]

They continue to bash each other by telling "My God is the best, but yours are not". I think there must be something religous aspect behind the racism/discrimination.

Japanese are quite flexible about religious thing, and in fact I and my family do not belong to any religious group.

Religious discrimination is a whole other issue. In fact, most religious discrimination could be called outright hatred and intolerence. I think to fully cover the subject you'd probably have to start another thread.

It has little bearing on whether or not someone can be a racist or discriminate against people. Religion doesn't make people intolerent and, likewise, being non-religious doesn't make you more accepting. It really comes down to how much exposure and what sort of experience you've had with people of different races.

Japan is in an interesting position because the majority of it's population is Japanese. It's quite a uniform country in regards to race and I doubt the majority of the Japanese public has had much real contact with foreigners or gotten to truly know anyone from outside of Japan. With an environment like that it's easy to make assumptions about people of other races (I've heard many Japanese would be nervous to meet a black person and consider them violent, despite having never met anyone who was black). Plus foreigners are made out to be dangerous so even having never actually met someone from outside of Japan, I'm sure many Japanese have negative assumptions about what they would be like and be quick to rush to judgement.

It's all about experience and I find it ironic that, even having had such limited contact with the rest of the world, many Japanese are quick to start boldly spouting off untrue assumptions about the western world and (in particular) America.

[Astroboy]

10 least religious countries according to this poll.
1. Sweden (up to 85% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)
2. Vietnam
3. Denmark
4. Norway
5. Japan
6. Czech Republic
7. Finland
8. France
9. South Korea
10. Estonia (up to 49% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)
http://www.gadling.com/2007/08/23/least-religious-countries/


This is an interesting stat. I agree that percentage of believer is important, but at the same time, I often consider the characteristcs of each religion.
And I persoanlly believe .... Japanese Shintoism is a kind of AMINISM, probably the same as local religions in Papua New Guinea and Aboligenies in Asutralia. Although official believers of Shitoism in Japan is quite small, Japanese way of thinking and behaviour are reportedly based and very much influenced by the Shitoism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism

Key of Shitoism is something "Vague" or Not Black and White, I believe. I think such "Vagueness" may help reduce racism/discrimination in Japan. Is this too much consideration?

[nice gaijin]

If you insist on linking discrimination to religion, feel free to ask any Japanese Christians what they think about the level of religious tolerance in Japan.

Also, feel free to answer any of my actual questions.

[Kyoto Returnee]

Would you elaborate further,detail some racially-motivated incidents you experienced over there.:wave:

Sure Tokapi:

My personal incident was when I went into a small watchmakers jewelelery store in a country town in Nara.

I walked in, called out "Sumi-masen". The shopkeeper came out, said "Hai", then made the hand movements "out-out".

The was purely racial. Being a white Australian so to speak, it didn't affect me so much, although it did bring to light racism.

The same thing had happened to a colleague from California when he went inside a video shop in a Nara country town.

It was all very new to me as I was always trying to be very polite to the local people.

My colleague and I had also finished an English translation of an information booklet for victims of discrimination for the Nara Government.

I had also experienced a man riding a bicycle past me whilst I was walking to work and called out the word "Gaijin".

I have also heard first hand accounts from many friends, colleagues and students who are a mix of full Japanese, half Japanese, and totally foreign.

It is also and issue for persons involved in Japanese/foreign marriages should a divorce ever take place.

I could write a book and the consequences, but I will not elaborate as it's nearly bed time here.

If you a foreigner in Japan, on any type of visa, and will go through a divorce, you may as well kiss everything goodbye, including the children (presuming your partner disagrees with you taking them), and leave.

Your visa will expire. If you try to leave secretly with the children and your Japanese partner contacts the authorities, you will be stopped at the airport, and Jailed for five years for child abduction! Let's not forget they are your own children.

If the Japanese partner does this, it will be fine for the authorities.

If you dissapear in Japan with your children, the same lawas apply as the airport.

If your Japanese partner dissapears in Japan, the longer the worse for the non national, they will automatically be awarded full custody of the children simply because they have become used to living that way!

Bear in mind, a foreigners visa will expire and even if the divorce is going through legal channels, court cases, etc., you will not be awarded another visa and will have to leave the country.

The above is well documented.

It really is a nightmare for any foreigner inside Japan.. Forget any legal issues as ultimately, if you are a non national, you will lose..

Must run, I could document loads of examples here.

I dont think in Japan they go to your house and kick you out of your house, terar down your house and say. This land is Japanese state property.

There is probably alot more stealth racism in US. Racism in a subtle manner difficult to detect than the overt practices of discrimination that once was dominant in US but still there are signs everywhere in US of the social injustice.

Japanese dont go around kidnapping people like US and North Korea either.

It was Australia before! Just don't start on the poor Kangaroos again:clueless:

[Kyoto Returnee]

I think you are missing the point once again Centrajapan.

Discrmination in Japan goes back a long way.

Because of this, I think many Japanese discriminate, without actually realizing they are doing it.

I know many Japanese who also know that discrimination and racism within Japan is their.

I have a good friend in Kyoto. She is from a wealthy upper class family.

I was in the car with her Mum and her one day, and asked her Mum what she would do if her daughter's BF was a Baraku.

Her reply was basicallly NO WAY!

Pretty much proves the point..

Contact the Nara government for an information booklet on the topic. they will hand one to you explaining all..

[thatsme]

Hi,
I did go through this thread a bit.
I beielve that all human have a racist tendency, you can use different words they are all semantics, what I am trying to say, that consciously or not we are.
I am not justifing it, I am purely stating a fact.
the above statment it might be too simplistic, but right now I think that there is some true.
any opinion on that?
cheers

[Sensationalist]

@ Sensationalist
English has become something of a common international language. It's become a communication tool and many many non-english speaking countries use it to converse with people around the world.
This isn't westernization being shoved down anyones throat, it's common sense. With todays world it's logical there would be one language that would be commonly used in international discussion and affairs rather than everyone having to learn 10 different languages. The language picked just happened to be a western one. English is extremely versatile with a wide range of words and sounds (which makes fairly flexible in regards to differing accents). Plus it gives the speaker the ability to be directly to the point with little room for misinterpretation and with no need for honorifics or social and gender distinctions, so it's a fairly logical choice all things considered.
English is the language of Business & Commerce the world over, that can be easily agreed upon. However, English is the most filthy of all languages on the planet with a over 10,000 words in its lexicon making it seemingly impossible for the language learner to grasp the real meaning of words ! How can you expect non-native English speakers to understand subtle nuances in speech, idioms and common registers in English unless they were either born in an English speaking country or spent many years living there ?? It's impossible...and that's partly why the English language is changing...i.e. Singlish, Japlish, Spanglish and every other 'ish' you can name !

English is versatile because it's bad, not because it's good. There needs to be a standard English that we all can communicate with with less ambigious terms and less idioms.
The English language is also limited to literary interpretation of poems, arts, and philosophy, and no matter how many times you translate or transliterate something from a pure language down to English, English just dilutes the real meaning and content. English is far from being the ideal language and it should only be offered as an elective, not a requirement.

As for the western factor, English, like all other languages affect the transmission of culture like all languages have since the beginning of time. Everything moves through the medium of language even how we behave and express our feelings and attitudes. English is bad for Japan for that reason.

As for Business & Commerce it can be a necessary tool for lubricating the wheels of social interaction, but not a requirement !

[thatsme]

think about,
if the roman empire would have still be here would'nt the italian language be the main one and subsequently you would say the same thing about it.
or if Japan had won the war, wouild'nt Japanese be the main language?
At the present moment English is the main one, but who knows in the future?
Whatever we are indoctrinate with will enable us to be objective, not that is a bad thing.
cheers

[Sensationalist]

You're saying that everybody in the world needs to speak English except the uniquely unique Japanese, which is of course ludicrous. Is this what you meant to say?
Who's shovelling what down whose throats exactly?
Or do you regard campaigning for anti-discrimination laws as 'western fundamentalism' ? Meaning that legalized discrimination is 'fundamentally' a Japanese thing?
All these racism/discrimination threads boil down to the same thing: there are racists everywhere in the world, but only in Japan is racism and discrimination entirely legal. In this instance, Japan really is 'unique.'
2,000,000,000 people speak English all over the world Taiko, but it's not because they needed to learn it unless of course you came from a poor Afro/Carib Island nation somewhere where your livelihood depended on the tourism industry and you needed English just to survive ! Thank western expansionism indirectly for that dependency ! That cannot be refuted.
The Japanese do not need English. They can carry on with their lives every single day without ever having to depend on using English at all ! You cannot refute that. The same cannot be said about some places in the U.S., like California for example; I would never go to Alhambra, or Fullerton because those areas have signs written in other languages that I cannot read because I only know the English language and not Chinese or Korean. There are people in L.A. who only speak Spanish, but yet they can work and own homes without ever having to use English their whole lives !

[Mars Man]

Please allow me to state here, and I do hope to make this clear enough to get through all the background noise, but if we were to stick more closely to the theme at hand, we'd probably--or at least ought to--understand that we need not go any further in to lingusitical discussions anymore than we ought to go into religious discussions.

Regarding embedding to support a point made, some embeding may come up but at this point no further presentation there is productive--so let's let that be.

As for more precise terms and definitions, I find that it would well be a hopeless battle in that in the rush to present opinions (and evidently only opinions rather than facts--to the far larger degree) seemingly pushes out ration and patience.

There is the existence of the 'in-group' and while it has been shown that the existence of the 'out-group' is indeed not an absolute prop-up for the 'in-group,' in far most cases it can be clearly determined that the 'out-group' has been used to cement 'in-group' bonding and strength. Whatever the excuse may be or have been, the essence of the cause is an attitude of perceiving an 'out-group.' We can say discrimination alone, and that term well suffices the entire concept.

In that this thread's title makes use of what I will call the 'opposition element' (.vs.) we could say that there is an overtone of subjectivity. We could also say that it could be an error of language--in which case there is less need to argue in terms of comparativeness and greater productivity in simple description.

Let's try to strive to keep this thread along those lines, please.

At my university, it is hard for our Chinese students to work their ways into the social networkings of the Japanese students on campus. This is an element of the formation of 'in-groups' and 'out-groups.' While the clicks, as well as the over all groups, work both ways, it is clear that it is not a matter of 'race' (since there most probably is no such thing) nor of discrimination, per se, but simply due to social bondings which groups are.

When there is a group with relatively strong bonding, it will more often have stricter in-born (subjective) resistence towards non-'in-group' members than groups with weaker bondings. This element has been touched on by a few above and does not relate only to Japanese social fabric. This is a simple animal behavior that is a continuum from lower social animals up to, even, the homo sapein. As has been stated above by thatsme san (I do believe) that's just the way it is.

[thatsme]

As I said I put it very simplisticly.
in any case, truth is relative, and whatever opinion I have about anything in general are just temporary, the more I observe the more the opinion vary/change accordingly
now back to the thread.

[centrajapan]

I think you are missing the point once again Centrajapan.

Discrmination in Japan goes back a long way.

I am missing your point. I look at you as being very close minded. But you probably have your good sides too. You seem to be projecting Aussie discrimination onto Japan.

[Chi65]

A few points:

I am surprised about having Korea on a high level of non religious in the list, because many there are even very religious, with growing and very early Christianity, beside a still activ shamanism and different Buddhist branches.

And then I wish to say, that religion very well plays a very strong part in Japanese, lets better say prejudices towards non Japanese, because they often destroyed their peace. Prominent example, the Jesuits, that led to the closing of Japan for more than 200 years.

Not that in the end Japan would mind, having found the contacts to the rest of the world again, but its surely still difficult to accept, that it has been done via being forced by the US (Commodore Perry), which had many other following psychological effects too, one of them (wanting to show the world, that they are strong and powerfull, as for the "godemperor" too) Pearl Harbour (or all that warmaking, if you so wish) etc. with according effects etc..

Any present rebuffing of non Japanese can surely still be related to those scars to a certain point.

And religious or not, if the emperor has to be made a god, which is not even an old story, but made up in the latest centuries only, for obvious reasons, then this simply mirrors the tactics of many other countries or empires for domination's sake and feeds fanatism, no matter where. And out of this comes discrimination-thinking:
"I am better than you, because I am even a god or a descendant of god, and my god is all in one, not yours" etc., thus it is very well also, if not mainly, a religious background and does very clearly belong to this theme.

[Bucko]

The race ritos in Australia was not just about these gangs. The reason why they became gangs in the first place was that white Australians did not give them the respect they dersved and the Lebanese took that respect into their own hands. And it just escalated and then the bubble bursted. The Lebanese Australians felt alienated from society.

Typical European thinking - the criminal being the victim. If Australia has a tendancy towards racism why is it that we rarely hear about problems within, for example, the Greek community, or the Indian community, or the Chinese community, or the Jewish community? You don't even hear stuff about the Catholic Lebanese! They are ALL minority groups in Australia, yet it's only certain minority groups that cause the trouble! Anyone with a logical mind would surely look at this and see that the problem obviously lies with the certain minority group in question. I don't for a second believe it's a two-way street. If it was, then all those Indian Australians and Chinese Australians would be forming gangs, bashing up lifesavers and pack raping girls too.

[centrajapan]

You never have race riots in Scandinavia. Not like the one in Australia. Islam is the 2nd largest religion in Scandinavia.

[Goldiegirl]

My Japanese husband is a racist. He believes that Chinese and Koreans cause the most trouble in Japan. I can't even argue with him about that. He simply doesn't want to hear it. The same for his family and friends. Sorry, but it's the truth. There is a lot of "quiet" racism in Japan. Maybe they don't come right out and say something but they certainly do think it. I remember watching a show in Japan about the amount of litter on Mount Fuji, they said it was all the foreigners visiting that made all the garbage, not the good Japanese people. My husband and I got into a good fight over that one. The pictures showed computers, refridgeraters, printers and such...I am sure all of us visiting foreigners brought our old kitchen goods and computer goods just to litter Mount Fuji! Oh and all the shows saying the Chinese are stealing the metal parts of kids playgrounds so they can have cheap metal or take it back to Japan.....

[Bucko]

What's with all the Australia bashing on this thread? Some of you (esp. centrajapan) have a very distorted view about Australia. Luckily most Australians are immune from the self-loathing that the UK and Europe has succumb to. Australians aren't racist. All they want if for people to act Australian, which is very simple really - just give others a fair go, don't resort to blame, look after yourself and don't expect others to look after you unless totally necessary, don't big-note yourself or act like you're better than others. There, simple. And most ethnics abide by these very simple, natural traits. Others, for example, the Lebanese muslims and many aborogines like to blame others and are stuck in a victim mentality. Many muslims also bring to Australia and raise in their kids the idea that they are superior because of their religion, and that others are simply "kaffir", unworthy of life. And this is where the problem lies.

In regards to Japan, well I lived there for almost 3 years, in three different areas, and never experienced anything bad for being white. I was also very conscious that I was a guest in the country and tried as much as I could to fit in, speak the language, and "act" Japanese. And in the end it worked out for me. Most people didn't give too hoots that I was white, some people were curious, and that's about it.

In countries that are often falsely accused of racism, like Australia and Japan, I really do believe that it has very little to do with the country itself, and almost all to do with the people who are trying (or not trying) to integrate. And my evidence to this is the huge numbers of ethnic groups in Australia that are known to blend in well and cause no problems, and my own experience in Japan where I tried to blend in as well as I could and never being discriminated against.

You never have race riots in Scandinavia. Not like the one in Australia. Islam is the 2nd largest religion in Scandinavia.

That's because you Europeans bend over backwards so as not to offend the minorities who are destroying your country:

http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/02/muslim-rape-epidemic-in-sweden-and.html

[Chi65]

Pleease:
No race riots in scandinavia??

OK, not directly, but what about the danish islam-comix and thus the islamic (over-) reactions?

OK, the islamic people were definitely completely without humour, but the mockery surely did not come from love or acceptance either. . .

And then Bucko:
the aborigines in Australia are racists? Well, how comes, that an australian can see it this way after all that has been done to them????????????
Who is a racist then?
Sorry, but that almost let me fall off out of my socks in wonder.. . . . . . .

I had an uncle, who collected songs and languages etc. amonst the aborigines and lived with them in the Pilbara region, thus tried to understand them and help them, facing lots of australian obstacles. He would have told you something here! Yes, about Australian racism. They may be OK towards others, but not in this case, sorry to say. By the way, I connected him with Peter Gabriel once, and you may remember the film the Long Walk Home (or so) . ..

As for your Japan experiences, yes, I can confirm such good esperiences. If you show fairness and goodwillingness, you mostly get it back there.

[Bucko]

Chi65, it was centrajapan that said there were no race riots in Europe.

As for the aborigines in Australia, yes they were treated harshly in the past, but every single group of people in the entire world has also been treated harshly in the past too. However, there are some groups who choose to move on and become better, for example, the Jews, and there are some that choose to be victims forever like the aborigines. I'll tell you what - the moment the aborigines stop blaming the white man, stop demanding compensation, the moment the government gets rid of all the monetary benefits that aborigines get (e.g. Abstudy - a special government grant for aboriginal students), and the moment the aborigines decide as a group to take hold of their own destiny, will be the moment when things start to improve for them. And I can tell you that the rest of Australia will give them all the encouragement they can because Australians would love to see the condition of the aborigines improve. But the onus is on them to stop playing the victim and demanding compensation and start working towards a better future.

[Chi65]

Chi65, it was centrajapan that said there were no race riots in Europe.

As for the aborigines in Australia, yes they were treated harshly in the past, but every single group of people in the entire world has also been treated harshly in the past too. However, there are some groups who choose to move on and become better, for example, the Jews, and there are some that choose to be victims forever like the aborigines. I'll tell you what - the moment the aborigines stop blaming the white man, stop demanding compensation, the moment the government gets rid of all the monetary benefits that aborigines get (e.g. Abstudy - a special government grant for aboriginal students), and the moment the aborigines decide as a group to take hold of their own destiny, will be the moment when things start to improve for them. And I can tell you that the rest of Australia will give them all the encouragement they can because Australians would love to see the condition of the aborigines improve. But the onus is on them to stop playing the victim and demanding compensation and start working towards a better future.
As you can see, I corrected the first lines, no problem, I saw my mistake myself, sorry for irritation. This version is the right one.
You are adressed later, OK?

As for the Aborigines, I cannot share your view, also, because I know too much about thier ways and backgrounds. Certain scars need a long time, as you may know from the native american indians, for example.
And as long as they are expected to live only under the "whitey's" rules, while those still do not try to understand them properly, nor excuse their own former behaviour properly, to find at least a point in between the positions, I see no agreement from them, nor would I advise them to agree.

I would say the very same to and about native indians for example.

Insofar I also have a certain (! not unlimited ! ) understanding for some Japanese towards those who think, that they are the only rulers of the world (even if they also have that side in themselves, which I would not say about the aborigines or native indians for example).
But who is appreciated because of or appreciating openminded cooperation on either (!), not just one side, can move mountains for and with them. And why not in new ways?

[MadamePapillon]

However, English is the most filthy of all languages on the planet with a over 10,000 words in its lexicon making it seemingly impossible for the language learner to grasp the real meaning of words !

Your ignorance makes me laugh. So because English has so many words and meanings it must be a dirty, impossible language? :blush:
I've met all sorts of people from all across the world and they seem to have no problem communicating effectively in English to me. In addition to that the great majority of scientific articles and texts are written in English (about 90%), making it clear that English is a more than learnable and effective language.
....Also, the English word count is closer to over 300,000.

English is versatile because it's bad, not because it's good. There needs to be a standard English that we all can communicate with with less ambigious terms and less idioms.

How is versatile bad exactly? Versatile is generally seen as a good thing as it makes it easy to completely express yourself without misunderstanding.
And it's called simplified English, yes, it does exist.

The English language is also limited to literary interpretation of poems, arts, and philosophy, and no matter how many times you translate or transliterate something from a pure language down to English, English just dilutes the real meaning and content.

It is possible in English to translate something directly as is from a foreign language but the fact remains that it would sound as unnatural as if I spoke Japanese using English word order and context.
English also works extremely well in a literary sense, hence the immense amounts of books, poems, plays ect.
Ever read The Raven (http://www.heise.de/ix/raven/Literature/Lore/TheRaven.html)? If not I suggest you do then come back and tell me if such a thing could be translated effectively into Japanese without meanings and subtleties being lost. Mistranslation is a two way street.

Everything moves through the medium of language even how we behave and express our feelings and attitudes. English is bad for Japan for that reason.

English is used across the world to make communication easier, not to accomadate the cultural nuances of the Japanese language. You are surprisingly arrogant. But if it means that much to you, English has a ton of obscure words that you can use to make yourself better understood, but maybe in a not so subtle way.
A pox upon you and your house, vile, cankerous swine. ...See.
Or you can do like Mars Man and use language that expresses the users knowledge and obvious grasp of the scientific and literary world. It's all about word choice and, if nothing else, English has tons of words, once you know how to use them you can say and mean anything. English is not lacking in expression and attitude, even for foreign speakers,...as you have already displayed with many of your posts

[Bucko]

Chi65, you make a good point about aborigines being expected to live only under the "whitey's" rules. It is totally understandable that they might feel hard done by and you would be a fool to say that European settlement and culture in Australia had a devistating effect on the way they aborigines lived. However, to really and truely better themselves they will have to acknowledge this and, dare I say, move past it. Easier said that done, sure, but the reality is that Australia is now a nation built on white European culture. It is an enormous ask on their part and I understand how difficult it must be for them, but fair or not, there really is no choice.

One way to put their struggle in perspective is to look at Europe now and how it's going to be in 100 years or so. Over the next century European women will slowly but surely become second class citizens as Islam takes hold. Women in Europe are going to have to accept this sooner or later - it comes as part of a transition in culture. The sheer strength it's going to take for European woman, who for a long time have enjoyed freedoms, to accept their fate is similar to the new and dominant culture is similar to how the aborigines are going to have to accept and become part of the this so called "whitey" culture.

[Chi65]

Chi65, you make a good point about aborigines being expected to live only under the "whitey's" rules. It is totally understandable that they might feel hard done by and you would be a fool to say that European settlement and culture in Australia had a devistating effect on the way they aborigines lived. However, to really and truely better themselves they will have to acknowledge this and, dare I say, move past it. Easier said that done, sure, but the reality is that Australia is now a nation built on white European culture. It is an enormous ask on their part and I understand how difficult it must be for them, but fair or not, there really is no choice.


Well, I have a different view, but it may take some time.
As long as the whitey's assimilate, rather than listen to the other side first, there will always be a very legitimite struggle. And I even hope so and would be on the Aborigine's side even, same as my uncle. And I am by far not alone with this. However much I like many Australians, and my own daughter loved to live there on and off, yet came with the video from Australia, with the mentioned film, tears in her eyes.
Both sides will have to learn, not just one.

One way to put their struggle in perspective is to look at Europe now and how it's going to be in 100 years or so. Over the next century European women will slowly but surely become second class citizens as Islam takes hold. Women in Europe are going to have to accept this sooner or later - it comes as part of a transition in culture. The sheer strength it's going to take for European woman, who for a long time have enjoyed freedoms, to accept their fate is similar to the new and dominant culture is similar to how the aborigines are going to have to accept and become part of the this so called "whitey" culture.

Sorry, I live in the middle of a very islamic part of Berlin and have no problems with them, in contrary. And I also attended Sufi-centers (amongst many other centers of different points of views around the wolrd) in younger years, in fact in UK, and they were open for women alike, as much as some also opened up in islamic countries. Also many islamic young women here would not wish to go back to any kind of fundamentalism, no way.
We are in a pressure cooker time for all parts, not just one, and do not yet know, what comes out of this, but I cannot see your vision at all, sorry.
Most younger ones will not let it after all the open windows to the rest of the world and worldwide discussions, like here. It may get stuck in those countries, who close such windows, but that will not be here.
Insofar I welcome other influences and compare them etc., like many of my international friends too.
We all make mistakes and can now talk about them worldwide.
Actually, in Japan I was heartily welcomed by an australian aborigine journalist, who was also higly appreciated by my japanese friends. She was wonderfull, and we had a good time, and her present for my opening of a local exhibition, a fish from the nearby pool, that she caught herself, was delicious and shared amongst us all. So what. We had no problems at all, in contrary.

Next time you can join us, with or without any belief-system and any colour you like to have.
Can you sing? Even better :-)

Or how about a walkabout through japanese mountains?

[Sensationalist]

...See.
Or you can do like Mars Man and use language that expresses the users knowledge and obvious grasp of the scientific and literary world. It's all about word choice and, if nothing else, English has tons of words, once you know how to use them you can say and mean anything. English is not lacking in expression and attitude, even for foreign speakers,...as you have already displayed with many of your posts
I would like to educate you more on this subject but since the mod specifically stated that there should be no further discussion on this subject, I will refrain. But on a quick note: obviously you have no experience in the ESL industry becuase if you did you'd understand that just because a person can speak English doesn't mean that person is understanding you the way you think they are. This problem has a lot to do with register and how people use English when saying words. Understanding idioms is another problem too. And you haven't travelled as much as you stated either because if you did you'd know that what I am saying is true, especially in asian countries.

[MadamePapillon]

What you said is true, every language is spoken differently and it's not simply about the words. This is the reason for simplified English in global communication.
This doesn't change the fact that I have met people from all across Asia, some that could barely speak a word of English and others who spoke it as well as any native speaker. It is possible for someone who was born and raised in Asia to become a more than fluent speaker of English, such as this girl from China I knew from college. She swore like a sailor, used slang, and had more attitude than half the class put together. :blush:
What I was trying to get across is that it is possible to fully speak and understand the language and express yourself in any way you choose once you know how to speak English at a certain level of profficiency, even if you do come from an Asian country. It's harder, but not impossible, to become fully fluent.

http://www.vec.ca/english/11/idioms.cfm

[Chi65]

Is this topic related?. . .

[centrajapan]

Pleease:
No race riots in scandinavia??
OK, not directly, but what about the danish islam-comix and thus the islamic (over-) reactions?
OK, the islamic people were definitely completely without humour, but the mockery surely did not come from love or acceptance either. .


People have a right to freedom of speech. Muslims in Scandinavia reacted completely different than in Iran or in the Middle East. The key point here is that it is the media that make that decision – not the authorities. The leading Muslim communities in Norway condemned violence and harassment too.

The French philosopher Voltaire put it like this: “I disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

So yeah we havent had race riots like in Australia. But no it is not completely problem free.

Muslims in Scandinavia were offended twice. First by the picture then by people burning the Scandinavian flags.

[Mars Man]

OK...things go, and things come. I will give one more drift of fresh air here to see if the topic on hand, can get back on topic. The discussion is, in the best definition, about discrimination--in-group .vs. out-group--and that of Japan as opposed to other countries.

[Chi65]

I would like to give another small example, just a little event, maybe:

There was a Matsuri in a bigger town and I realised, that I did not have enough film material with me. I was the only foreigner around, although it was a very big festival.
I asked a japanese fotographer, if he could help me out and sell maybe one film, but he was not friendly and denied to even relate to me any further. He stayed as ignored by the others then.
Some other watchers realised this and immediately asked me, if they could buy me some, they knew a shop near by. I was very happy and wanted to give them some money before, but they said, no no, after, and how many films?
And then two people ran away after asking me to wait, which I did. I got my films soon after and payed them and of course, I was very happy! So were they.
Since I was at this festival till late, people showed me around, kindly asked others to stay out of my focus, when active etc., and let me take fotos about everything I wanted, also backstages. And I also got a fine brush full of holy water over me, which under laughter was explained as bringing luck and congrats from alll sides etc. etc.

Being a bit tired in the end, with a lot of playfull communication behind, I sat down on big stairs overlooking the scenery on the shrine ground, where they had their storages for the big floats, and had two people sitting beside me soon after, some that accompanied the floats before and knew me already. One jumped up after a while and came back with something to eat. I was told, that I must be hungry by now, and its right, I forgot all about my stomach! Then they showed me two festival scarfs and asked me to choose one, they almost forced it onto me, and I really liked the most typical one there and they decorated me with it as present, no but and if.
On other festivals I was served beer, icecream, whatever was in their bags, be it just for a small question or chat with me, BTW, seemed to be a nice habit.

And also, on this one, there was a man, trying to make fotos from me. It ended up in a lot of laughter, from people around as well, because he was very nice and we kind of tried to trick each other by doing a snapshot in an unexpected moment. I will never forget his face thus. Playing games is my thing. I'll be right in!

With some other words about the first one, that one was one of very few negative experiences, but the relation to good ones was mostly as described (which is, why I am posting this here). 1 to I don't remember any more, how many. . .and furthermore, being around as a woman on my own, I had the very same experience.
In Korea, they were very eager to marry me to someone, to make me (even) more happy, as they said, hehe. But that was not the japanese game though, I am glad! Its even surprisingly safe for women to travel around, very recommended indeed!
The best country in this relation so far, no joke!
It just has to be said in all honesty, despite whatever there may be.

[caster51]

Discrimination/racism in Japan vs non-Japan

The waise man learns from the history, and the fool learns from experience....

Bismarck was clver

If white's history is basically seen, it is likely to understand.

When did the black ppl obtain the suffrage even if they said democracy or westernized?

[centrajapan]

Many muslims also bring to Australia and raise in their kids the idea that they are superior because of their religion, and that others are simply "kaffir", unworthy of life. And this is where the problem lies.

haha.

'DID YOU KNOW ABOUT ALL THESE MUSLIMS?'
ASKS BISHOP

"Apparently there are thousands of them going around being all Muslim and stuff," says senior cleric.

[Sarapva]

When did the black ppl obtain the suffrage even if they said democracy or westernized?

Do you mean blacks in the U.S. (descended from slaves taken from Africa in the 1700-1800s)? It was in the 1960s that schools finally became integrated with both black and white students (before that there had been black schools and white schools). I'm not as sure about when blacks were first allowed to vote - probably '50s-'60s. Before that, everything had been segregated - blacks had to sit at the back of buses, had separate schools, couldn't go into certain stores. There were signs on drinking waterfountains that said "Whites only" and "Coloreds only".

One of the terms people used to use (and still do in some places, mostly the south) for a black person is "colored", but that has negative connotations and gradually people have come around to saying "black" or the more politically correct "African American".

There was a famous incident in the '50s-'60s where Rosa Parks, a black woman, refused to sit in the back of a bus. This was the beginning of getting more rights for blacks.

I was always taught by my parents that everyone is the same, no matter what the color of your skin. By the time I was in school they were integrated, and I grew up with black and white friends and hardly even noticed if a person was black or white.

[Chi65]

And we live with many muslims and other foreigners of all colours in our part of Berlin and had many festivities together, also prepaired...just to say, it IS possible, and very interesting to share this.
The last time I worked in a multicultural center, it was one, that was run by a very nice ethiopian. My job was a schoolproject about Japan. . .its still alive.

[Taiko666]

There are people in L.A. who only speak Spanish, but yet they can work and own homes without ever having to use English their whole lives !

So we agree. Not needing English is NOT unique to the Japanese.

I also never suggested that the Japanese need to know English. Please read posts carefully.

[Kyoto Returnee]

You never have race riots in Scandinavia. Not like the one in Australia. Islam is the 2nd largest religion in Scandinavia.

Racism exists in many places around the world.

In Japan, it appears to be hidden when it is convenient, and vica-versa when not.

The worst racism I can remember was in South Africa under apartheid.

That was really bad..

In Thailand, it is against the ethnic Hilltribe groups, and Burmese.

In Japan, it appears to be against Koreans, Brazillians, Peruvian, Chinese, South east Asian, Russian, sometimes Australia, American and possibly British, did I miss any?

[caster51]

I dont know why there are two price lists for Japanese in other developrd country :(

For Example, hotel..
Do not you obviously think this to be discrimination?

[Calchas]

Do you mean blacks in the U.S. (descended from slaves taken from Africa in the 1700-1800s)? It was in the 1960s that schools finally became integrated with both black and white students (before that there had been black schools and white schools). I'm not as sure about when blacks were first allowed to vote - probably '50s-'60s......


Black men had the right to vote shortly after the Civil War but "southern backlash" created Jim Crow laws which made it harder for Blacks to use their right to vote.

During the reconstrution era there where many Black men holding office in the south. Jim Crow changed all that.....

[Astroboy]

Racism exists in many places around the world.

In Japan, it appears to be hidden when it is convenient, and vica-versa when not.

The worst racism I can remember was in South Africa under apartheid.

That was really bad..

In Thailand, it is against the ethnic Hilltribe groups, and Burmese.

In Japan, it appears to be against Koreans, Brazillians, Peruvian, Chinese, South east Asian, Russian, sometimes Australia, American and possibly British, did I miss any?

True.

The United Nations Human Rights Commission made its strongest condemnation of human rights violations in Germany since World War II with the release of its annual human rights report. Four pages of the document, released in Geneva, are devoted to human rights abuses and discrimination by government bodies and officials against members of the Church of Scientology.

http://www.freedommag.org/english/vol27i5/page12.htm
http://www.humanrights-germany.org/about/shocking.htm
http://eupolitics.einnews.com/news/germany-discrimination

Life in Germany must not be easy yet.

I remember that Jewish was discriminated due to their religion. AMEN.

[butakun]

Oh no, here we go. Church of Scientology.... Let's not go there....

[A ke bono kane kotto]

Racism isn't the same as discrimnation. Racists want to exterminate or dominate (some) other races. Discrimination can be such a benign thing as not let you enter a nightclub because they don't like your face (even if you are not ethnically different from the bouncer)

[Chi65]

I dont know why there are two price lists for Japanese in other developrd country :(
For Example, hotel..
Do not you obviously think this to be discrimination?

Sorry, Caster, this escaped me, but is interesting.
Does it help your tears, if I say, that in China they (for long at least) also had different prices for foreigners in general in their hotels?

This had more a reason in assuming, that foreigners were simply richer, an assumption, that was not even wrong about many first visitors!
Also many of these visitors behaved badly and arrogant.

From my experiences, it always changed drasticaly, when they realised, that I came alone and could speak their language, and was obviously not arrogant. . .thus it was not racism.

Maybe the same can be said about Japanese travelling in other countries?

I do not know, if anything similar was done in Japan for foreign visitors, but it could well have been at times, if you ask me.

It wasn't though, when I visited. But I mostly stayed at friends places anyhow, and you know yourself, who is a friend of friends in Japan, is usually treated equally and expected to know some basic rules of everyday life, in general. No racism there either.

[Glenski]

I dont know why there are two price lists for Japanese in other developrd country :(
For Example, hotel..
Do not you obviously think this to be discrimination?
Where have you seen that, caster?

Sounds like the 2 prices many/most travel agents in Japan charge whether you are a foreigner or Japanese. Or didn't you know that?

[caster51]

Where have you seen that, caster?

korean hotel's web.

http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/ptravel/60000/20080214120297295425821300.jpg

http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/ptravel/60000/20080214120297295730227900.jpg

http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/ptravel/60000/20080214120297295987858700.jpg


after that, some Japanese claimed about the price to hotel.
hotel explained There is a difference in the tax.
" why is there a difference in the tax"

then it was corrected by many claim

[Chidoriashi]

Caster, not that I doubt your claims, because it is totally plausible, but those pictures are really hard to see. Can you provide a better image. Cuz it looks like the Koreans are paying the most at 190,000 wan

[undrentide]

Chidoriashi, maybe you're looking at the resized photos.
If you click the message shown above each photo, you can see their original size version which show the prices clearly.
I've never heard of such double-standard (?) prices for hotels, but as far as I see these 3 photos, English versions and Korean versions shows
Standard Single 140,000 won
Corner Single 120,000 won
while Japanese one shows
Standard Single 187,000 won
Corner Single 154,000 won

I'm not sure if these different price lists are intentional or just they forgot to revise Japanese version.

[Chidoriashi]

Undrentide> Haha, ok thanks, I feel silly.:p

Well, I for once will have to agree with Caster and say yes that is discrimination and should be changed. Though the motives for Koreans doing such a thing are quite different from the reasons for Japanese putting up the "Japanese Only" signs. Those motives being based on bitterness, rather than ignorance, or the lazy way of dealing with a select minority from a group that cause problems.

[Kyoto Returnee]

I dont know why there are two price lists for Japanese in other developrd country :(

For Example, hotel..
Do not you obviously think this to be discrimination?

It is a bit of a cliche and can see where your opinion is coming from.

It stems from more I think to do with Japanese tourists generally targetting the more expensive end of the tourist market, namely, hotel brands.

Most of this is pre-booked by way of packages from Japan, and genrally includes meals, tours, etc.

We know in Cairns tourism industry that any high price fixing actually originates from Japan, and is usually catered for right down the line, including the vacation country by way of the Japanese country having a presence, one comes to mind, JTB.

Yes, Chinese restaurants in geberal here have a special menu for the Japanese tourist, usually including all the expensive seafood and the likes, which their is good profit on. I stress this menu is for Japanese only so perceive that as racism and it leans the other way forward if you get my drift..

having said that, the Japanese tourist is free to roam and pay what they want here and I'm sure they do, unless they have more money than sense (cents)

Different prices for foreigners no doubt exists in many countries, one again comes to mind, and that's Thailand.

They have a Thai (local) price and foreigner price. It was genrally perceived, although times have changed, that Westerners had more money than Thai so the businesses could ask for more. Some foreigners did take offence of this, live their long enough to understand the culture, and you would have understood. Like I said, times have changed in Thailand and it has gone from third world, developing world, to now.

In Cairns, Queensland, Australia, the locals generally get a cheaper price to tourists if we show our driving licence for ID at entry.

This does not include all Australians.. An Aussie on vacation in Cairns from down South, do pay tourist prices..

[undrentide]

It is a bit of a cliche and can see where your opinion is coming from.

It stems from more I think to do with Japanese tourists generally targetting the more expensive end of the tourist market, namely, hotel brands.

Most of this is pre-booked by way of packages from Japan, and genrally includes meals, tours, etc.


Did you read caster's post #98, which elaborates his post you've quoted.
I do not think it has anything to do with your explanation above...

[Chi65]

?
I think, it has very well!

In fact, they (Caster's example) should not have written these different prices on one paper, that was a bit silly indeed!
Two separate papers would have been better, and is very well common practice in some countries and places (annoys me too, but is a fact, and in no way just japanese related).

I also think, knowing the differences between general prices and particularly what you accordingly get for your money in Korea and Japan very well (having been in both countries several times), that it was even still cheaper for the Japanese than in their own country. Some Koreans must have thought, well, its all relative, Koreans have less money available in general in contrast to Japanese and lets relate this somehow.

This would be exactly like the Chinese thinking, as I described before!
And somewhat understandable (although I did not like the chinese way either, but, as said, as soon as they realised, I do not belong to the arrogant rich foreigners, the picture changed immediately).

[undrentide]

?
I think, it has very well!

In fact, they (Caster's example) should not have written these different prices on one paper, that was a bit silly indeed!
Two separate papers would have been better, and is very well common practice in some countries and places (annoys me too, but is a fact, and in no way just japanese related).

I know that in some countries, foreign tourists can be a target for "rip-off" because they think those people have much more money thus taking more money from them should not a bad thing.
Also Japanese tourists in particular can be regarded as easiest target because many of them do not know how to bargain.

I also know that in the past (I don't know if they still do) they have two different money system and different price system for themselves and foreigners in general.

But the example caster posted is different.
First of all, it is not these price lists printed on a paper, it is from the hotel's officla webpages (not one sigle page).
And the reason caster feels it "descrimination" is both Korean/English (which should be for everyone outside Korea) show the normal price while only the Japanese one shows higher prices.

If only the Korean version shows the low price and both English/Japanese ones show the higher prices, it would be more understandable, if not justifiable, to think "because they think foreign tourists have more money".

I really don't know the actual reason for this price discrepancy but if it was something intentional (not an error of forgetting to revise Japanese one), it is natural then one feels that there must be something other than foreign tourists vs Korean people money issue.

[Chi65]

Koreans can be very direct and also very naive, and sometimes both. . .

on the other hand, we have the german proverb:
who feels meant, is meant. . .hm. . .

As for the different money system, that was so in China for long, btw.
If it was also in Japan or Korea at times, I simply don't know and hear it here for the first time, please teach me about.

[epigene]

AFAIK, Japanese hotels, restaurants, etc., have never had a different pricing system for foreigners. If it had existed, I think it was in the early postwar days (some years following end of WWII), when the Japanese currency meant next to nothing, and many people were craving to earn in US dollars.

As for different pricing system for Japanese, I have experienced it in the Philippines, Hong Kong and some establishments in Malaysia. I later found that the higher pricing was targeted specifically for Japanese tourists and not for European and North American tourists. However, I must add that this was some years ago, since I haven't traveled for the past couple of years. :relief:

Disclaimer: Never been to Korea, though my husband had. He said he never realized that he was being charged differently because he didn't know any better! :blush:

[Chi65]

Thank you very much for the informations, epigene!:-)
The former Japanese way seems to resemble the Chinese way. Have there also been special shops for foreigners, where they could only buy with this extra money, like in China?
(this opened a big illegal exchange market, btw, but we also found our way to help them getting what they wanted; on the other hand, many local and daily things were much cheaper in the local jenminbi, thus any way of exchange turned out to be nice ;-))