Manga and dialects (non-standard Japanese)

[Anatoli]

I noticed long time ago that Japanese in mangas doesn't seem to follow standard Japanese, which makes them harder for foreigners to understand.
This was confirmed by some Wikipedia articles. Luckily, the article said it was one particular dialect - Kansai-ben (which may include some other subdialects).
Since Kansai-ben is the most widely known nonstandard dialect of Japanese, it has become a favorite with Japanese authors, manga and anime artists, and the like, as the choice for representing a somewhat "different" character from the norm. The use of Kansai-ben is closely associated with manzai and comedy in general throughout most of non-Kansai Japan. This is due both to the prevalence of comedians from Osaka in Japanese media as compared to people from other cities and regions (which is in turn due at least in part to the Yoshimoto Kogyo agency, based in Osaka), and to the willingness of Osaka comedians to use their own dialect while on stage. Because of this association, speakers of Kansai-ben are often viewed as being more humorous or wittier than the average Tokyo-jin. Tokyo people even occasionally imitate Kansai-ben to provoke laughter or inject humor into a situation.

My questions are:
Is it true that mangas are normally written in Kansai-ben, the most common non-standard Japanese? If that's the case, you only to understand one variety of non-standard Japanese, is that right?
Are there any online resources to give readers a head-start in coping with this variety? I understand the main difference is seldom different words but endings, particles, abbreviations, etc., which are common for colloquial Japanese.
Someone told me that many dialectal forms have become part of standard Japanese. I'd like to know what is still "dialect" and what is "norm".
Depending on the replies, I may add some examples. At the moment, I am trying to read "Nana" with my daughter. So it would be great to use this manga as a reference point.

[Anatoli]

The first example:

What's the connotation of ど田舎?　What's the ど prefix?

ど田舎でも都会でもない

[nice gaijin]

it means your sentence is incomplete...

basically, the dialects spoken will depend greatly on the characters and the author. If you must learn a single dialect of Japanese other than Hyoujungo, it depends on what you want to do with your language skills. Kansai-ben is used a lot in entertainment, so it's definitely the most common form of Japanese other than Hyoujungo, and useful if understanding comedic variety shows is a priority.

Frankly, I don't read manga or watch anime (I have in the past, but I don't care to anymore) so I can't tell you what is common. I'm afraid I don't know of many resources for learning other dialects, but my recommendation is to get a good foundation in standard Japanese and you'll start picking things up as you go.

[Anatoli]

Thanks for the reply.

Although, I am far from fluent in standard Japanese, I have a good grounding in standard grammar and have about intermediate level in Japanese.

I understand normal Japanese sentences - both polite and colloquial as described in a variety of textbooks and grammar books but I always gets stuck easily in some manga and usually not on words but on particles and endings. Note that I know most standard particles and endings, it's the dialectal forms that confuse me.

If you must learn a single dialect of Japanese other than Hyoujungo, it depends on what you want to do with your language skills. Kansai-ben is used a lot in entertainment, so it's definitely the most common form of Japanese other than Hyoujungo, and useful if understanding comedic variety shows is a priority.

If Kansai-ben is the common one, then perhaps, I'll have a go and find more about the differences between the standard and this dialect. I want to be able not just to read newspaper articles but to read some entertainment literature. Sometimes I get impression that nobody uses 標準語 :)

Here's a quote from another discussion:
The only people who speak hyoujungo are supposed to be news reporters or other official/public working people. They usually have to go to school to get taught how to use "proper japanese".

[NattyBumppo]

it means your sentence is incomplete...
Not true at all. ど田舎 is a colloquial way of saying "extreme boonies." The ど is emphatic, and is very often written in カタカナ instead of ひらがな.

[epigene]

Not true at all. ど田舎 is a colloquial way of saying "extreme boonies." The ど is emphatic, and is very often written in カタカナ instead of ひらがな.
Adding to NattyBumpo, it's not dialect either.
I'm 100% Kanto-jin and have used it all my life.

[nice gaijin]

my mistake, I recant my first sentence. Clearly, even my own vocabulary is still expanding.

regarding the use of hyoujungo, it is true that newscasters need to be trained to speak in the "accentless" form of Japanese, much like national anchors here in the states. As I understand, it includes learning to slightly raise the intonation at the end of sentences to prevent syllables from dropping off and maintain a clear, "flat" tone.

Dialects are interesting, as there can be variations even over short differences. I can't remember the precise location, but when I studied Japanese phonology, the origin of Hyoujungo itself was pinpointed to a very specific part of Tokyo. Within the larger families of regional dialects (kanto, kansai, touhoku, etc), there are many variations thereof, down to individual cities and even further divisions. As you said, it's very seldom that you see anyone use proper hyoujungo (outside of television and formal communications, or Japanese learning materials), because most people use common language (共通語) in their daily lives. It is in the common language that dialectal quirks become apparent.

[orochi]

You don't have to be a scholar in a dialect to understand it (to a certain extent, at least). Besides region-specific words that you simply have to learn, there are a lot of common traits between colloquial speech all around the country. Reading lots of books and comics, or watching lots of TV, movies, and anime, is a great way to familiarize yourself with lots of content. The more you know, the more your instincts will kick in when coming across a colloqial verb form or bit of slang.

[Elizabeth]

Someone told me that many dialectal forms have become part of standard Japanese. I'd like to know what is still "dialect" and what is "norm".
Depending on the replies, I may add some examples. At the moment, I am trying to read "Nana" with my daughter. So it would be great to use this manga as a reference point.
Examples please. :) If the premise if your question is whether what you are reading are slang/colloquialisms of the uniformally spoken hyoujungo or truly another dialect (which I doubt on the fact it would have extremely limited readership) the only way we're going to possibly tell for certain is through looking at a selection of the material.

[Anatoli]

I agree with you, Orochi (nice avatar, is that you? :) - it works for any language. Luckily Japanese dialects are not the same as Chinese or Arabic - the difference is not huge.

Still, some head-starters are required, it's hard to move even from advanced Japanese textbooks into colloquial Japanese mixed with dialects. Words like "sugee" for "sugoi" or "tanmari" for "amari" don't appear in dictionaries.

EDIT:
Elizabeth, we posted at the same time. :)

I will provide some more examples. The first example was with the "do-" prefix - (do-inaka) - not part of the standard Japanese.

[Anatoli]

Another example. It's hard fro me to follow just knowing the standard words and forms.

ほったらかされてスクスクと育ち

[undrentide]

Another example. It's hard fro me to follow just knowing the standard words and forms.

ほったらかされてスクスクと育ち

But there's no dialect in this... it's standard Japanese, just colloquial.

[Anatoli]

Agreed, I'll post more when I get stuck. :)

At times I have a problem telling them apart if it's colloquial but I will do more work.

[Anatoli]

でもレンに抱かれる事だけがあたしの人生じゃねぇんだ！

I can understand it but is じゃねぇ colloquial or dialectal?

[orochi]

I can understand it but is じゃねぇ colloquial or dialectal?

More colloquial form of じゃない.


Nana takes place in Tokyo, right? (Sorry if I'm wrong.)
So most people will probably speak slangy hyojungo.

[Anatoli]

I hope I will be able to understand the difference between the slang and dialects.

どうも :)

[Elizabeth]

I hope I will be able to understand the difference between the slang and dialects.

どうも :)
When it all starts to look delightfully new and slightly bizarre -- that's when you know what you've entered is a non-intelligible variety of Japanese.

Here's a sample :

標準語　　　　　　　　　大阪弁　　　　　　　　広島 弁

>
> これいくら？ 　これなんぼ？ これなんぼ？　
　　　　
>
>
> 少し高くない　　　少し高いない　　　　 少したこうない
> 　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　 （高い）
>
> もう少し　　　　　もう少し負けて　　　 もう少し負けて
> 負けても　　　　　くれへん？　　　　　 くれん？
> らえません？


広島弁：　「今日は新しい人が来るけえ、中華レストラ ンで一緒に食べ
るんよ。じゃけぇ子供達も楽しみにしとるんよ。」

[Anatoli]

Very interesting, Elizabeth, thanks. I'll go through your examples.

Here's another one, confusing.
どーせならたんまりもらっときゃよかったのにやり逃げされて

Is どーせ same as dooshite?
たんまり = amari, anmari?
もらっときゃ stands for moratte ...?
Finally, what is やり逃げされて? It has something to do with run away but why passive and what does やり add?

Sorry for too many questions.

[undrentide]

Very interesting, Elizabeth, thanks. I'll go through your examples.

Here's another one, confusing.
どーせならたんまりもらっときゃよかったのにやり逃げされ て

Is どーせ same as dooshite?
たんまり = amari, anmari?
もらっときゃ stands for moratte ...?
Finally, what is やり逃げされて? It has something to do with run away but why passive and what does やり add?

Sorry fro too many questions.

どーせ＝どうせ: anyway, anyhow
たんまり： a lot
You can check those words with 英辞郎
http://www.alc.co.jp/
It usually gives a lot of examples of usage, so that you can check the connotation/nuance.

もらっときゃ＝もらっておけば

やり逃げされる is passive of やり逃げする
やり逃げ　＝　noun form of やる＋逃げる (do and get away)
やる generally means "do" and do what depends on the context.

[Anatoli]

Thanks a lot, it all makes sense now. The link is good too.

[Derfel]

I don't know if it helps, but you could try Dirty Japanese: Everyday Slang from "What's Up?" to "F*ck Off!" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1569755655)
Just ordered it a while ago, so I don't know whether its good or not. But definitely its a potential solution.
Certainly it won't tell one much about slang... but I suppose if you know slang you won't mistake it for a dialect.
Whatever, give it a shot if it caught your interest.

[Anatoli]

I've got some material on "Outrageous Japanese". Any booklet it's a scratch on the surface, IMHO. If you learn Japanese outside Japan, like myself, it seems the only method is to keep reading and asking questions, when you get stuck.


I found an excellent resource on reading Nana manga: :cool:


http://lunar.littlestar.jp/stardust/english/NANA/NANA-01.html (http://lunar.littlestar.jp/stardust/english/NANA/NANA-01.html)

Most of my questions may be answered.

I think I am beginning to distinguish a slangy standard Japanese and dialects, just proving to myself that my colloquial Japanese leaves much to be desired but I am having fun!