Gov't to consider Japanese language ability as requirement for long-stay foreigners

[ArmandV]

Gov't to consider Japanese language ability as requirement for long-stay foreigners

The Foreign Ministry and Justice Ministry have decided to consider making Japanese language ability a requirement for foreigners seeking long-term residency and when screening their residency permits, it has been learned.

The aim of the measures is to make it easier for the increasing number of non-Japanese in Japan to blend into the community, and provide an increased incentive for foreigners coming to Japan to learn Japanese.

Foreign Minister Masahiko Komura announced the proposed move in a news conference on Tuesday.

"Japanese language ability is important to increase the quality of foreigners' own lifestyles, and is also important for Japanese society," he said. "It will be a very good thing if this builds momentum for people to say, 'I'm going to study Japanese in order to go to Japan.'"

The government bodies are expected to consider whether to include Japanese language ability as a new screening standard for people entering the country, and consider checking whether foreigners' Japanese language ability has improved when renewing their residence permits.

However, some government officials have expressed reservations about the proposed measures, saying there is a possibility it could result in valuable human resources not being able to enter the country.

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/national/news/20080116p2a00m0na017000c.html

[nice gaijin]

While I think it's advisable to know Japanese for someone who intends to live in Japan long-term, I don't see the benefit of making it mandatory. Are there any other countries that have such regulations?

What do you think, Armand? It's hard to have a discussion when you aren't bringing your own opinion to the table...

[ArmandV]

While I think it's advisable to know Japanese for someone who intends to live in Japan long-term, I don't see the benefit of making it mandatory. Are there any other countries that have such regulations?

What do you think, Armand? It's hard to have a discussion when you aren't bringing your own opinion to the table...

I agree with you. It seems antagonistic to make it mandatory. It would be beneficial for someone to know Japanese, but it should be left up to the individual. I know of no other country with such regulations.

[nice gaijin]

I suppose this brings up the larger question of how Japan should deal with a growing foreign community: should they begin to embrace and celebrate multiculturalism, increasing the common understanding of foreign cultures by bringing foreigners more into the public eye under a positive light, or by encouraging/forcing foreigners to "become more Japanese" at the expense of their own cultural identity. I think this is a question that Japan must face in light of the declining population and inevitable influx of immigrants.

[Anatoli]

In my opinion, we should respect the Japanese government's opinion. They give a chance for foreigners to stay but on a condition. The tests for the knowledge should take into account that Japanese is a hard language to learn, especially the writing system and will require a lot of time, also the amount of time spent in Japan, age and the intended time should be taken into consideration. It has recently become the requirement in Australia to know English to become a citizen and it was one of the main factors for immigration.

Knowing the language where you live is very important. For young people it's just a matter of finding a proper school, time and some money to invest into learning Japanese, if they are already in Japan.

Compare this with Switzerland - you can be born there and speak a few languages, you still remain a foreigner.

[nice gaijin]

but this proposed policy does not mention Japanese language ability as a prerequisite for citizenship, just for "foreigners seeking long-term residency," and even mentions subsequent testing to measure progress. What good does this do? It would be nice if it were coupled with some sort of incentive, like a free education or paid time off to study, but what about people working all day in a non-Japanese language environment, and don't have time to study other than to pick up a few new words at the combini or from some other limited interaction with Japanese people? Do they get deported for "not needing Japanese" in their daily lives?

Compare this with Switzerland - you can be born there and speak a few languages, you still remain a foreigner.I'm not familiar with Switzerland's policies, could you elaborate what you meant with that reference?

[Glenski]

Another xenophobic reaction by the government, IMO.

This article is preliminary and doesn't state what level of Japanese will be necessary. It implies spoken, but is that really enough to be called "fluent"? I don't think so. So, that leaves us with a test of spoken, written, and reading ability. It doesn't exist yet. Who is going to make this? What level of "fluency" will be acceptable? Who makes the standards?

Some people who have been here a long time (various visa or other residency situations) may not have learned quite enough to pass the proposed "test". Does that mean that after putting in years of living and working here, paying taxes and perhaps raising a family with children in school and a spouse working, that person would have to drop everything and leave? Unfair.

Yes, people should try to learn a certain level of Japanese to live here, but this idea from the government doesn't make sense.

Anti-terrorist in its goals? So, now we are considering that long-term residents are potential terrorists, eh? Prove the foundation for such an argument. It can't be done.

Renewal of work visas dependent on such "fluency"? Well, I can imagine business communities, Japanese and foreign, will be kinda miffed at hearing that their good workers are going to have to leave the country. The declining birthrate and poor immigration policies already in place to replace the drop in population (i.e., worker potential) are pretty lame. This only adds fuel to the fire.

Lastly, kudos for Anatoli for this comment.
In my opinion, we should respect the Japanese government's opinion. They give a chance for foreigners to stay but on a condition. The tests for the knowledge should take into account that Japanese is a hard language to learn, especially the writing system and will require a lot of timeRemember that the Japanese themselves admit that it is hard for foreigners to learn the language as a whole, and that it takes Japanese 12 years to become only relatively fluent in the 2000 kanji necessary for daily life.

[Thorham]

I agree with you. It seems antagonistic to make it mandatory. It would be beneficial for someone to know Japanese, but it should be left up to the individual. I know of no other country with such regulations.In the Netherlands it's not only mandatory for foreigners who want to stay here to learn Dutch, it's also mandatory to learn about the Dutch culture! The government believes this helps integration of foreigners. They have a good point: Everything here is in Dutch, and if you can't understand it, participating in normal, every day life becomes very difficult (no Dutch=no job=no life). I simply can not imagine living in a country where I can't understand and read the language; to me it would be completely unbearable, and make it impossible for me to participate in normal life. Just try to get a job somewhere! I think this applies to every country; just try living in China if you don't know Chinese...

[nice gaijin]

In the Netherlands it's not only mandatory for foreigners who want to stay here to learn Dutch, it's also mandatory to learn about the Dutch culture! The government believes this helps integration of foreigners. They have a good point: Everything here is in Dutch, and if you can't understand it, participating in normal, every day life becomes very difficult (no Dutch=no job=no life). I simply can not imagine living in a country where I can't understand and read the language; to me it would be completely unbearable, and make it impossible for me to participate in normal life. Just try to get a job somewhere! I think this applies to every country; just try living in China if you don't know Chinese...
I agree that it would be very frustrating to try living in a country where I don't speak or understand the common language, and I would work hard to learn the language to get along on my own, but there are people that get along fine and don't mind being in that situation. Should the motivation to learn a language come from within, or be imposed from an outside authority for reasons that might not apply to everyone?

Does the Dutch government deport people who fail to show an acceptable level of fluency? As Glenski said, who gets to decide what level that is? It would be interesting to hear from someone who failed to meet those standards, and what they think of this kind of law.

[Elizabeth]

I agree that it would be very frustrating to try living in a country where I don't speak or understand the common language, and I would work hard to learn the language to get along on my own, but there are people that get along fine and don't mind being in that situation.
Of course they don't mind because they are shamelessly free riding, parastically, off the backs, and in no small measure gracious good will, of their Japanese hosts. Who HAVE BEEN forced to learn English for seven or more years.

If you think getting up to speed on basic level conversation/writing skills after living in place several years is too much stress try passing an entrance exam after a course of English classes not even taught by a native instructor...Life in Japan is good, and even easy, but foreigner laziness and lack of motivation to contribute to the linguistic burden in equal measure is disgusting :okashii:

[nice gaijin]

I had the dekasegi Brazilians in mind when I wrote that; they work long hours and tend to socialize only with other people in their position in their free time, and a majority of them speak little to no Japanese (although their unique immigration status might make them exempt from this requirement, which makes one wonder what the point was in the first place). There are other foreign populations in similar situations, are they all freeloaders for their inability or unwillingness to pick up Japanese?

Who did you have in mind to write such a vehement response?

[ArmandV]

How can someone be called a "freeloader" if that person is employed and paying taxes in Japan? It seems that that person is being beneficial to the Japanese economy rather than "freeloading."

The classic definition of a freeloader is someone who is sponging off the government (i.e., welfare) when they could otherwise work.

[Sensationalist]

I think this new initiative is great ! All the Japanese government is saying is that you have a choice; either be functionally illiterate or literate if you want to live her long term. In North America it goes without saying we expect foreign nationals to be able to have some basic proficiency in English, but when they are not able to demonstrate that, we get angry and intolerant of that person. Japan is trying to make it a requirement for foreign nationals to learn Japanese. The only incentive is that you either learn it or get out of this country.

[Taiko666]

The only incentive is that you either learn it or get out of this country.

And you don't find that antagonistic?

Would you accept being forced to leave the country if you failed the test?

[Anatoli]

Nice gaijin, in Switzerland, migration laws remain very strict, despite people trying to adapt as much as possible - they are not given citizenship and getting permanent residence is extremely hard.

--
Yes, I agree, foreigners need motivation - if this is made harder for them to stay, they will try to learn! Aren't schools or private classes available? You can find Japanese classes even if you don't live in Japan.

I know many Russians who complained about Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania making them learn the language. I am Russian but I think it was fair (maybe not some other things). If you want to live in a country, learn their language and culture, respect your hosts - it will be for your own benefit and people around you, so it will be for your kids.

I don't think it has to do with terrorism but some transparency perhaps.

As for the level required, they probably still deciding, let's not speculate before we know what the requirements are. Found nearest Japanese class yet? :)

I am not evil. It's common sense. Try to think from the Japanese point of view ("Think like them", Shogun). Even if you pay taxes but not interested in the language, it means you only doing it to get rich. Your value will only increase if you can communicate in Japanese and do your job.

The positive effect on introducing similar measures in Australia was good, IMHO.

[MadamePapillon]

When your moving to live in a foreign country long term it makes sense to learn the local language, even if you are in an environment where maybe you may not use it a lot, it should still be a requirement, not just in Japan but in every country.

I don't think it's fair to the original citizens when all sorts of immigrants come into their country to work, not speaking a word of their language and not knowing the cultural and societal behaviors that everyone is expected to conform to. It just makes life harder for everyone, especially if the people aren't even willing to try to learn the language.

That's where you get situations when people being to think their country is being overrun by immigrants and it can all just snowball into a grim situation when the original citizens feel a threat that their country is changing to suit the newcomers and pushing them aside. Japan especially seems really high strung about the issue and are perceiving a threat before one has begun, something tells me it wouldn't take much to light the fuse.

[Taiko666]

Of course they don't mind because they are shamelessly free riding, parastically, off the backs, and in no small measure gracious good will, of their Japanese hosts. Who HAVE BEEN forced to learn English for seven or more years. I detect a 'we've made the effort, so you must to the same' nuance.

If you think getting up to speed on basic level conversation/writing skills after living in place several years is too much stress try passing an entrance exam after a course of English classes not even taught by a native instructor...Life in Japan is good, and even easy, but foreigner laziness and lack of motivation to contribute to the linguistic burden in equal measure is disgusting :okashii:

I don't quite understand your outburst. But I've seen several similar outbursts on this issue from foreigners who can speak excellent Japanese, and I think foreigners who are not so accomplished can expect to suffer similar angry pontification in the near future.

I also agree that one should learn the language. I did, because I wanted to communicate with my Japanese friends, the vast majority of whom can't speak any conversational English despite having been 'forced' to study it for 7 years. I expect foreigners who live here without learning Japanese have large numbers of Japanese friends who want to speak English with them. If that's their bag, so be it. I don't think these people should even be looked down on, let alone thrown out of the country.

[orochi]

Unusual outburst indeed.

[Glenski]

I also agree that calling long-term residents freeloaders just because they may not have learned to be extremely fluent. The definition just doesn't fit, as others have explained.

Elizabeth wrote: ...their Japanese hosts. Who HAVE BEEN forced to learn English for seven or more years. Ahem. They may have studied for that long, but they certainly didn't learn anywhere near enough to be called conversationally fluent. As a teacher, I can attest to that.

Sensationalist wrote: All the Japanese government is saying is that you have a choice; either be functionally illiterate or literate if you want to live her long term.No, you got it wrong. It says be functionally literate or get out if you want to live here long-term. But, the article is also vague (because it is such preliminary news) about who this affects, as I mentioned earlier -- long-term resident visa holder, or work visa holder, or perhaps even (gasp!) Permanent Resident status holders. Mind you, it may not affect the PR holders who currently have PR; the article talks about renewing visas, and PR is not a visa, nor is it renewed. The government may try to impose this on PR applicants, though. But, the terminology in the article is weird enough, so that it may just be long-term resident visa holders (which in itself is strange). Is it the fault of the government for such weirdness, or the newspaper for poor reporting/translating?

[orochi]

>>Is it the fault of the government for such weirdness, or the newspaper for poor reporting/translating?

Most of the English language press on the issue is very poor right now.
I highly recommend checking Japanese news sites for more accurate details.
But overall, there's very little information out there. I wouldn't be surprised if we never heard another word of this actually.

[nice gaijin]

to be fair, "freeloaders" was my word, but that was the impression I got from Elizabeth's post.

As I've said before, I think it's important to learn the local language and culture when considering a permanent move to a new country. Heck, I prefer to learn as much about a new place before I even visit. But while encouraging it is one thing, forcing it on people unilaterally does not seem to be doing them any favors. This report is so premature there is no information on the standards to which foreigners will be held, what governing body will set the standards and administer the tests, or who is going to pay for this mess. Until we get the particulars of this proposed plan, we're all just debating a hypothetical situation.

Anatoli: What you've said about Switzerland is very interesting. I'm looking through this site (https://switzerland.isyours.com/e/immigration/citizenship/index.html) regarding their naturalization processes. It seems that they operate on jus sanguinis, which makes it much harder for immigrant families to obtain citizenship than places like the US. Have you lived there before, or are the Swiss especially well known for their strict immigration policies?

[Kyoto Returnee]

"Gov't to consider Japanese language ability as requirement for long-stay foreigners"

That rules me out then!

[nyouyaku]

When your moving to live in a foreign country long term it makes sense to learn the local language, even if you are in an environment where maybe you may not use it a lot, it should still be a requirement, not just in Japan but in every country.
I don't think it's fair to the original citizens when all sorts of immigrants come into their country to work, not speaking a word of their language and not knowing the cultural and societal behaviors that everyone is expected to conform to. It just makes life harder for everyone, especially if the people aren't even willing to try to learn the language.
That's where you get situations when people being to think their country is being overrun by immigrants and it can all just snowball into a grim situation when the original citizens feel a threat that their country is changing to suit the newcomers and pushing them aside. Japan especially seems really high strung about the issue and are perceiving a threat before one has begun, something tells me it wouldn't take much to light the fuse.

I think that you make a good point that people should learn the language of the host country. So many farangs don't even bother to try learning Thai even after years of stay. But Japanese and Chinese, I have to admit, must be made an exception: Their kanji characters are unrealistic for the foreigners who did not grow up with kanji. I can see Chinese and Japanese learning each other's language, but for Thai people it would be just as hard to learn Japanese kanji as it would be for any other farang. If they are going to make tests, I pray that it would only be in hiragana. Now if they want to naturalize nikkeijin as a regular nihonjin, then, sure the kanji requirement would be fair game. As it would be to keep dual nationality, a test.

[Homerduff]

Is this news article so 'breaking' ?

We all know that if you want to stay in Japan for a long term, you should be able to have good Japanese ability or your chances of finding work are almost nill. The ones that do succeed, should still learn the language in my opinion. If you decide to live in a country - be a member of the society - you have to learn the language for your own sake. Not knowing the language will only make foreigners stand out more and won't cure the big amount of xenophobic Japanese people.

Good rule. Too bad for those English native business men who may be dead scared of learning 1 new language. At the age of 12 (and let's say all average 12 years old students in Belgium), I was already familiar with 3 languages.

[pipokun]

Tell me what is the difference between "decided" and decided to consider in English...
In Japanese, it must be a huge difference...

[Elizabeth]

I also agree that calling long-term residents freeloaders just because they may not have learned to be extremely fluent. The definition just doesn't fit, as others have explained.
You're the one that introduced a standard of "extremely fluency" which is highly unlikely to become an official requirement as it is obviously not necessary for day to day living or integration into society. What is more realistic and what I was basing my judgment on was a familiarity with basic (phrase-book level) conversation/writing (maybe 100 or so common kanji) skills.


Elizabeth wrote: Ahem. They may have studied for that long, but they certainly didn't learn anywhere near enough to be called conversationally fluent. As a teacher, I can attest to that.
Whether through standard schooling, business or overseas stays, clearly enough have learned enough English to make those who haven't learned a whit be able to comfortably "live off their charity, generosity and hospitality" (Freeloading metaphorically applied). That was my point. And please stop complaining about their conversational ability until yours is comparable in Japanese.

[orochi]

Generalizations and preconceptions are yummy on Thursdays!

[orochi]

Tell me what is the difference between "decided" and decided to consider in English...
In Japanese, it must be a huge difference...

Decide would be 決定　可決 or similar.

Decided to consider would just be 検討を始める or similar.

[thatsme]

I am for, if the Japanese government will help foreigners to study the language.

Free classes, etc...
If our motivation is not met by theirs, then naturally no one would feel to make the effort.

As for the Kanji that is another issue.


we can only be assimilated to a certain degree.
cheers

[orochi]

Who's being assimilated???

[thatsme]

Who's being assimilated???
no one

unconsciously we are, to a certain degree that is.

[bakaKanadajin]

The initiative is clearly designed to weed out individuals who haven't got a clue about the Japanese language and create an unnecessary burden on the bureaucratic processes in Japan because they can't understand the simplest of things. I'm sure Elizabeth's comments were directed at those individuals, the ones who make zero effort to learn and expect to be catered to in English or whatever their native tongue is wherever they go. Some of them have lived there for quite some time, too. And keep in mind that paying taxes is the absolute bare minimum, also. Paying taxes grants you some entitlement but not to the detriment of others who pay taxes also.

Canada is one of the most multicultural places in the world and we definitely have to put up with some people here who I would, without shame, deem 'useless'; that is, individuals who haven't tried and never will try to learn English and simply exist within their own isolated ethnic communities. Many of those individuals live here without contributing one bit to Canada (not even taxes, on the contrary the receive monthly hand-outs) but expect to receive all the services everyone else does AND to receive them in their own language. Some even make a point of finding and exploiting the loopholes an open system like this obviously suffers from. Every country could do without these individuals, and I think Japan simply wishes to tackle the problem before it becomes wide-spread by introducing basic mandatory requirements.

[Elizabeth]

The initiative is clearly designed to weed out individuals who haven't got a clue about the Japanese language and create an unnecessary burden on the bureaucratic processes in Japan because they can't understand the simplest of things. I'm sure Elizabeth's comments were directed at those individuals, the ones who make zero effort to learn and expect to be catered to in English or whatever their native tongue is wherever they go.
Yes, exactly. Making a good faith effort for long term residents to be as inoffensive and well accepted by the community as possible is I'm sure what these preliminary examinations from the government are attempting to correct. I am referring to the ones I think we've all encountered that don't apologize for bothering whoever they are about to barge into, ask in Japanese if the person speaks English and proceed to chat away like it is their God given right to be perfectly understood. Bad enough in tourists. Completely unacceptable for everyone else. :okashii:

[nice gaijin]

Doesn't instating a potentially expensive government regulation (and I'd hope education program) seem like a bit far to go just to teach some annoying people a lesson? Who is going to pay for this?

And we've been talking about English-speaking foreign residents, what about those that don't speak English? I doubt they'd go somewhere and start speaking Portuguese or Chinese or Hindi to Japanese people and expect to be accommodated in their mother tongue. One would think that the onus is on them to adapt to get around, either by learning Japanese or having someone around to interpret, or finding some other method to communicate.

Again, the issue at hand isn't whether foreign residents should learn Japanese (I think we've all agreed on that), but whether it should be required by law.

[shintemaster]

Buerucratic xenophobia at its best. The fact that it would be helpful to learn a language doesn't mean it should be mandated by law. The simple truth is that Japan is heading towards a situation where they will desparately need massive immigration in order to support their population and economy. That is a fact and the culture as a whole seems unable to cope at any time in the near future with the challenges which a multicultural society will bring.

I also don't understand the idea of pushing foreigners to become more Japanese when their is no chance at present of them ever being accepted as such. Japan is heading steadily towards a situation where they will need foreigners more than they will need Japan. Interesting times.

[thatsme]

Could it be that are trying to reenstate the pure Japanese race, whatever that means?
By trying to get rid of the poison me as a foreigner, and at the same time, give a huge incentive to the Japanese pure couple to reprocreate?

Nah!!!

[ArmandV]

Again, the issue at hand isn't whether foreign residents should learn Japanese (I think we've all agreed on that), but whether it should be required by law.

Finally, someone sums up the issue!

[Glenski]

Is this news article so 'breaking' ?Yes, otherwise we wouldn't have so many opinions on it, Homerduff. This proposed policy, even in its embryo stage, has far-reaching negative impact potential. Personally, I think the whole announcement was far too premature.

[Elizabeth]

I also don't understand the idea of pushing foreigners to become more Japanese when their is no chance at present of them ever being accepted as such. Japan is heading steadily towards a situation where they will need foreigners more than they will need Japan. Interesting times.
And perhaps this is already an initial step towards planning for that inevitable day when greater numbers of unskilled workers will be required to offset the low birth rate labor shortage. Language is after all perhaps the most necessary and direct way to ensure the smooth integratation of any immigrant group into the greater social fabric and economy. Relax some visa requirements enabling manual labor admittance while strengthening others such as language. Certain incentives on the other end could also be offered for keeping highly fluent, high skilled workers in the country permanently.

I doubt very much the government is going to end up implementing a rigorous, high stakes test of Japanese ability that ends up throwing any
well trained employees out of the country. It all seems rather more designed to produce an increasingly flexible system of tradeoffs and incentives...

[Glenski]

You're the one that introduced a standard of "extremely fluency" Fair enough.

which is highly unlikely to become an official requirement as it is obviously not necessary for day to day living or integration into society.I prefer not to make that call just yet, Elizabeth. Neither of us knows what the 2 ministries will ask for. However, it is often wise to play Devil's Advocate, so I do.

What is more realistic and what I was basing my judgment on was a familiarity with basic (phrase-book level) conversation/writing (maybe 100 or so common kanji) skills. Personally, I think they will be asking for far more than this, but let's just wait and see. Who knows how long it will take before we see more from the MOJ on this anyway? Six months? A year? Two? Five?

I wrote: They may have studied for that long, but they certainly didn't learn anywhere near enough to be called conversationally fluent. As a teacher, I can attest to that.
Elizabeth responded: Whether through standard schooling, business or overseas stays, clearly enough have learned enough English to make those who haven't learned a whit be able to comfortably "live off their charity, generosity and hospitality" (Freeloading metaphorically applied). That was my point. Now you are the one going to extremes here, by implying a huge number (majority?) have not learned one iota of Japanese despite long-term stay. I don't disagree that many have not learned much, but to say zilch is far too extreme. Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that since no language requirement has been imposed, it has not stopped long-term residents from doing their rightful thing of paying taxes, paying for schooling of children, paying for insurance, etc. That's not freeloading, living off charity, or anything else. Japanese know it is hard to learn their language anyway, and they don't even expect foreigners to learn it here. You know the stories about people who attempt to speak it, yet get shocked responses back from the locals.

And please stop complaining about their conversational ability until yours is comparable in Japanese.Please stop telling me what I can or cannot post here. You are not the moderator and it doesn't take anyone perfectly fluent in Japanese to discuss this issue.

[Elizabeth]

Elizabeth responded: Now you are the one going to extremes here, by implying a huge number (majority?) have not learned one iota of Japanese despite long-term stay. I don't disagree that many have not learned much, but to say zilch is far too extreme. Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that since no language requirement has been imposed, it has not stopped long-term residents from doing their rightful thing of paying taxes, paying for schooling of children, paying for insurance, etc. That's not freeloading, living off charity, or anything else. Japanese know it is hard to learn their language anyway, and they don't even expect foreigners to learn it here. You know the stories about people who attempt to speak it, yet get shocked responses back from the locals.

Whether it is hard or not, whether the natives respect you back by responding in Japanese, whether it has any practical effect at all is completely irrelevant to the good manners and basic decency that foreigners SHOULD show towards their host country by attempting to actively learn the language. Again a different issue from the role of government intervention or infrastructure necessary to its effective implementation.

Although you do have a point that perhaps my rhetoric did get a bit out of hand on the question of zilch vs. knowing how to buy a train ticket or a few everyday kanji. It could be that the people most cowed by the possibility of a test are simply unable to have a basic conversation or struggle to put a simple sentence together. :bluush::wave:

[Taiko666]

Good rule. Too bad for those English native business men who may be dead scared of learning 1 new language. At the age of 12 (and let's say all average 12 years old students in Belgium), I was already familiar with 3 languages.


Good rule. Too bad for those English native business men who may be dead scared of learning 1 new language. At the age of 12 (and let's say all average 12 years old students in Belgium), I was already familiar with 3 languages.

Thanks for your somewhat self-satisfied opinion. Belgium is hardly unique in that respect... although it does have an advantage in that the country has two equally important official languages.

So do you think somebody who has contributed to Japanese society for years should lose his/her livelihood and family as a consequence of failing a language test?

. I doubt very much the government is going to end up implementing a rigorous, high stakes test of Japanese ability that ends up throwing any well trained employees out of the country. It all seems designed to produce a more flexible system of tradeoffs and incentives...

That indeed is a possibilty! But given the J-Gov's record on immigration issues it seems like wishful thinking. We'll have to wait for the details.

[Anatoli]

Could it be that are trying to reenstate the pure Japanese race, whatever that means?
By trying to get rid of the poison me as a foreigner, and at the same time, give a huge incentive to the Japanese pure couple to reprocreate?
Nah!!!
Would you say so, if your own original country introduced a similar law (if it hasn't already)? Race and language are not the same thing.

[Glenski]

Whether it is hard or not, whether the natives respect you back by responding in Japanese, whether it has any practical effect at all is completely irrelevant to the good manners and basic decency that foreigners SHOULD show towards their host country by attempting to actively learn the language. Again a different issue from the role of government intervention or infrastructure necessary to its effective implementation.I'm not arguing with the first part. I am arguing the second. What's your stand on the latter, other than to say there will likely be no rigorous test?

I don't want to speculate too much, because this whole article (and the couple of others that followed) were obviously premature and vague. However, I will continue to throw out the caveats as if the government will continue to show its stupidity, discriminatory nature, and blindness towards certain issues, as necessary.

[orochi]

the good manners and basic decency that foreigners SHOULD show towards their host country by attempting to actively learn the language

I pay taxes like every other Japanese person. I'd say that's all I owe, and it's paid.

[thatsme]

Would you say so, if your own original country introduced a similar law (if it hasn't already)? Race and language are not the same thing.

Perhaps most of human would.
I am the minority, the answer I would'nt

[Homerduff]

Thanks for your somewhat self-satisfied opinion. Belgium is hardly unique in that respect... although it does have an advantage in that the country has two equally important official languages.
So do you think somebody who has contributed to Japanese society for years should lose his/her livelihood and family as a consequence of failing a language test?\

I know Belgium isn't unique for that mather. I'm mostly talking about European countries. Anyway as for my 'self-satisfied' opinion, I have you got the point that learning a language shouldn't be a burden. I'm aware that English native speakers may worry more about this because foreign languages are usually less taught at a young age. That is not the fault of English native speakers. It's the fault of the education system for one part, and also the fact that English is the number 1 international language so why bother learning other languages..

I'm sure that the test level won't be amazingly high. Knowing that you have to get JLPT 2 to enter most Japanese colleges. If he/she isn't willing to learn Japanese, then yes he/she should face the consequences. If you have 'contributed' to the Japanese society for an amount of years, you should have some respect towards Japanese society itself also. And what is the best way to show respect to society ? Yes, learn the language.

[Homerduff]

Yes, otherwise we wouldn't have so many opinions on it, Homerduff. This proposed policy, even in its embryo stage, has far-reaching negative impact potential. Personally, I think the whole announcement was far too premature.

It depends on how you see this; either you see this new policy as a protection for foreigners themselves or - a well-known feature of the Japanese gouvernment - another policy to keep away immigrants out of Japan.

Everyone knows that Japan is in need of immigrant workers. Having an outstanding degree may sometimes cover up your lack of Japanese, especially in branches where Japanese are less skilled. Soon, other jobs will come open that don't demand extremely high degrees but you can't get passed the language. Anyone that's my feeling about the mather. If the Japanese gouvernment has other meanings (keeping out foreigners) with this new policy, then they are just a bunch of idiots.

[Dutch Baka]

Good thing in my opinion. The only question is who decides until what level foreigners should learn Japanese. Basic conversations?

[nyouyaku]

I think the foreigners themselves can pay for the Japanese language classes. If they don't like it, they can go home. This I am sure is the mindset of Japan. Maybe bakakanadajin, in your country, the government would be paying for it, and ensuring that they get the equal opportunity for employment as any other citizen. Only in your country, which is a dreamland. Japan while being the top asian country with respects to the standard of living and being the most developed, is not progressed to the level or lacks the generosity of Canada with respects to the foreigner population. As a Thai, I would rather take up citizenship in your country than Japan, and while a foreigner, would enjoy greater equality and tolerance for foreigners as my country has for farangs.

[Glenski]

It depends on how you see this; either you see this new policy as a protection for foreigners themselves or - a well-known feature of the Japanese gouvernment - another policy to keep away immigrants out of Japan.With the lack of information from the horse's orifice at the moment, I'd say the answer cannot be decided yet. One thing is for sure, though. If you believe the Japanese government is out to protect foreigners, you are dreaming.

Everyone knows that Japan is in need of immigrant workers.Yup, but Japan refuses to open its doors.

Having an outstanding degree may sometimes cover up your lack of Japanese, especially in branches where Japanese are less skilled.Homerduff, do you realize that a degree in any major will get you a job teaching English? Any degree, from anthropology to zoology. You don't need anything "outstanding" for that.

If the Japanese gouvernment has other meanings (keeping out foreigners) with this new policy, then they are just a bunch of idiots.As I mentioned above, the jury is out on this, but you are right about the idiot part, IMO.

Let's look at this another way, folks.
From the little we can gather from the few articles printed so far, it seems that imposing a language requirement is mostly for...
1) renewing a visa
2) people who want to stay here a long time
Little more can really be gleaned from this, IMO. So, with these tiny tidbits, what can we deduce?

The requirement may not be imposed upon a person getting his first visa here. I infer this from the word "renew" in the article, and from the fact that most people looking for their first work visa will not be able to tell you that they intend to stay here long-term. However, from the generalunion.com web page, there is an interesting Ministry of Justice graph. Go to http://www.generalunion.org/law/welfare and scroll down to the first thing you see above the heading on HEALTH. There it is. Granted, it shows 2001 data, let's just use this as a rough guideline (hey, at least it's data, compared to what the articles have provided so far). If we consider people can get a 3-year visa, and that general banter says most people go home after that many years, look who's left...less than 10% of foreigners who come to Japan for work. So, who is the MOJ trying to target with this proposed policy? Potential terrorists? Not likely in just that small number of people (and considering that no terrorist acts have been committed by foreigners).

So, we have thoughts that the MOJ wants to target people who intend to stay here a long time, yet we also see evidence that doesn't support the rationality behind this. Well, that's what I get for applying logic to the MOJ.

Oh, and if anyone wants to see a much more extended discussion on this whole topic, go here (and brace yourselves). http://www.gaijinpot.com/bb/showthread.php?t=47956

[Elizabeth]

I'm not arguing with the first part. I am arguing the second. What's your stand on the latter, other than to say there will likely be no rigorous test?
I think a test of basic to intermediate language ability is a good idea for anyone applying for OR renewing a work visa although other immigration restrictions would probably have to be waived to ensure no fall off in overall numbers. Particularly single people in unstable, tenuous English-only jobs with lower average incomes have little prospect of moving up in society as illiterates. When larger populations of transient, low skilled, no language workers are allowed to persist is when serious social problems start to develop. Other immigration mandates, such as four years of college before applying to a language school or for an English teaching job are much more arbitrary and meaningless in my opnion.

So, basically, anyone that isn't prepared to fully adjust to a foreign country has no business living there in my opinion. If Japanese becomes too hard, stop whining and try for a European culture. :souka:

[orochi]

>Anyone that isn't prepared to fully adjust to a foreign country has no business living there in my opinion.

What about people that are transferred here or otherwise forced to move out here due to work?

What about those who marry here and have families?

There are loads of circumstances that bring a person anywhere.

>If Japanese becomes too hard, try for a European culture and language.

I don't think this is the problem.

[nanook]

If this goes anywhere, which I doubt, when looking at the Japanese demographic development, it would most probably end up as just another arbitrary "case by case" handle for immigration officers to turn down visa applicants they don't like for any kind of esoteric reason.

I think, it is a non-story :)

[Glenski]

I think a test of basic to intermediate language ability is a good idea for anyone applying for OR renewing a work visa although other immigration restrictions would probably have to be waived to ensure no fall off in overall numbers.Other restrictions like what? The need for a degree or years of experience? What do you mean here?

Particularly single people in unstable, tenuous English-only jobs with lower average incomesStop it, Elizabeth! Do you have some fetish against English teachers or something? Geez. We don't even know what this policy is going to cover, yet you continue to belittle English teachers. Yes, some have low salaries (below what used to be the standard 250,000 yen/month). Yes, the jobs are tenuous in that they are mostly contract positions, but that hasn't stopped huge numbers from renewing visas.

... have little prospect of moving up in society as illiterates.Where is it written that anyone, Japanese or foreigner, has to "move up in society"? Plenty of Japanese don't. Should we find a way to kick them out?

When larger populations of transient, low skilled, no language workers are allowed to persist is when serious social problems start to develop.Yes, and the government is causing many of them by letting them in under trainee visas, offering even lower wages than English teachers, fewer benefits (if any), and not acknowledging their existence until they discover that they have not prepared such people to assimilate (such as putting their kids in schools). It's not the fault of the worker.

Other immigration mandates, such as four years of college before applying to a language school or for an English teaching job are much more arbitrary and meaningless in my opnion.I don't argue that having a degree with any major is acceptable for people who truly teach, but the situation is not as simple as that. What sort of standards would you impose on teachers, and how would you enforce them?

Other people, non-teachers, have to show credentials, too, including relevant degrees and/or work experience. There are lots of loopholes in the system, but that's because the "rules" are just guidelines, meant to cover a lot of situations, not just one.

So, basically, anyone that isn't prepared to fully adjust to a foreign country has no business living there in my opinion. If Japanese becomes too hard, stop whining and try for a European culture."Becomes too hard". Well, we just have to wait and see to whom this applies. Brazilians? Teachers? Refugees? Permanent residents?

And, we just have to see what sort of test the MOJ is proposing. Written plus spoken? How many kanji? What level of spoken Japanese?

And, just how much time will the MOJ allow for people to learn this before they decide to kick them out? Lots of unanswered and relevant questions here.

For now, I think it is too soon to do more than speculate. Looking down your nose on people who have spent years here surviving (key word!) without much Japanese, and without offering solutions other than "learn the damned language", is a poor way to debate.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Although in principle, I think the idea of making long term residents learn the local language is beneficial for all parties, I think that codifying it into law is a bad idea for Japanese manufacturing interests, unless they decide to move many more factories overseas.

The English teachers in Japan are a small percentage of the foreigners living here. Many more are factory workers. Many of them do not know much Japanese, and that limits their options in this country, but if they had to leave Japan due to their lack of language skills, who will fill the jobs that they vacate?

Those jobs are very significant for Japan's economy. Living here in Mikawa, home of Toyota and its affiliates, I can see how important these people are to the manufactoring sector, if only through the sheer numbers of these foreigners.

I think that English teachers in Japan is something of a red herring on this issue.

And, we just have to see what sort of test the MOJ is proposing. Written plus spoken? How many kanji? What level of spoken Japanese?
Plus the fact that generally speaking, tests in Japan are not so much to gauge one's actual ability as they are to see how well one can do on the test itself. If the MOJ made their own test, I would be very wary of having to take it no matter my level of Japanese ability.

[Dogen Z]

This is contrary to most opinions posted in the thread but I think it deserves some space here.

Many countries have or will shortly have language requirements for their immigrant population--France, Switzerland, Austria, and even Australia. Of course, the immigrant population in those countries object but having such a policy helps society at large when dealing with these people rather placing an extra burden on society to try find a way to communicate them. It also encourages integration because the better they can communicate, the easier it is for them to function normally in that country.

IMO, keeping pockets of functionally illiterate people who can only speak a foreign-language is like having people colonizing the country which can lead to balkanization of the culture. I don't think the Japanese would stand for that. When Japanese emigrated to the U.S. and Brazil, they quickly learned the culture/language of their host country. Japan might want to see a similar regard for its culture by those who are coming to the country now.

********
"To learn and and, at times, to practice what you have learned, is that not a joy?" Confucius :-)

[Glenski]

IMO, keeping pockets of functionally illiterate people who can only speak a foreign-language is like having people colonizing the country which can lead to balkanization of the culture. I don't think the Japanese would stand for that. When Japanese emigrated to the U.S. and Brazil, they quickly learned the culture/language of their host country. Japan might want to see a similar regard for its culture by those who are coming to the country now.
One would have to wonder why the sudden shift, if this is truly their reason? Decades have gone by with absolutely no inkling of this. Japan is happy telling people it is difficult/impossible to learn its language, and many live happy existences based on the notion that Japan is a "homogeneous" nation.

Of course, I think you can tell I am being sarcastic above, but I thought I should just point that out.

Besides, the article clearly states that this potential policy change is based on protection from terrorism, not any real sort of integration or alleviation of the negative birthrate. Let's hope that along with the language policy (if it ever surfaces) comes language lessons available for those who desire them (especially the Brazilians) and a tearing down of the "no foreigners" signs, many of which are aimed at Brazilians themselves.

[Elizabeth]

One would have to wonder why the sudden shift, if this is truly their reason? Decades have gone by with absolutely no inkling of this. Japan is happy telling people it is difficult/impossible to learn its language, and many live happy existences based on the notion that Japan is a "homogeneous" nation.
Of course, I think you can tell I am being sarcastic above, but I thought I should just point that out.
Besides, the article clearly states that this potential policy change is based on protection from terrorism, not any real sort of integration or alleviation of the negative birthrate. Let's hope that along with the language policy (if it ever surfaces) comes language lessons available for those who desire them (especially the Brazilians) and a tearing down of the "no foreigners" signs, many of which are aimed at Brazilians themselves.
Are you talking about the article posted in the original post ? There's nothing in there I could see remotely connected to terrorism.

My assumption was that the reason this is being brought up now is planning ahead for the not so distant day where an unprecedented number of foreigners will be brought in for manufacturing or other low-skill, manual labor positions necessitating a more thorough policy of integration than in the past.

I'm quite sure a language policy that leads to a net deficit of employees in these jobs is not going anywhere.


Although it's interesting, in the US at least, there is a "get tough on illegal immigrants" fervor sweeping the country which is not at all good thing in itself (particularly for migrant or factory employers). But many legal and permanent residents are also feeling the heat of discrimination and potential deportation which has prompted a huge spike in the numbers applying for citizenship. Although the test requires high fluency, becoming a citizen is seen as the ultimate security status. So it's possible that a similar pattern may also start to develop in Japan. Simply the awareness that a test could someday be instituted stimulates an appreciation of the importance of learning or consequences of not that may stir at least a few folks to take more serious action on it on their own initiative...:)

[pipokun]

Decide would be 決定　可決 or similar.
Decided to consider would just be 検討を始める or similar.

Many thanks.
I am sure that it will take another century before the J government orders wives of expats to study Japanese like the French does.

[Glenski]

Are you talking about the article posted in the original post ? There's nothing in there I could see remotely connected to terrorism.The first article to come out, plus one other that followed, did mention terrorism. A few subsequent articles did not. Who can say why? Here is a link to the first one (which will expire, so I will also copy/past the quote):
http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/425041
"Foreign Minister Masahiko Komura ... cited reasons such as the need for foreigners to be able to speak Japanese to fit into the Japanese society. While he gave no further explanation, the envisioned measure is believed to be aimed at eradicating illegal residency and likely part of antiterrorism policies."


My assumption was that the reason this is being brought up now is planning ahead for the not so distant day where an unprecedented number of foreigners will be brought in for manufacturing or other low-skill, manual labor positions necessitating a more thorough policy of integration than in the past. While the need is there to combat the declining birthrate, these articles on language requirements don't really seem to discuss much if anything about integration, which should really include educating these people. IMO, the government is embarrassed at the results of opening its doors so far, especially because of some of the illegalities involved in their own shenanigans.

Although it's interesting, in the US at least, there is a "get tough on illegal immigrants" fervor sweeping the country which is not at all good thing in itself (particularly for migrant or factory employers).As I wrote above, itis the government itself that operates some of these migrant workers illegally, so they are probably just trying to keep a low profile and divert attention.

But many legal and permanent residents are also feeling the heat of discrimination and potential deportation which has prompted a huge spike in the numbers applying for citizenship. Although the test requires high fluency, becoming a citizen is seen as the ultimate security status. So it's possible that a similar pattern may also start to develop in Japan.Possible, perhaps. But you don't see citizenship mentioned above, only long-term residency.

Simply the awareness that a test could someday be instituted stimulates an appreciation of the importance of learning or consequences of not that may stir at least a few folks to take more serious action on it on their own initiative...:)True, but as I've pointed out, the article(s) don't provide enough clarity for the affected group to know whether it is included in this proposal.

[JimmySeal]

I think language requirements wouldn't be such a bad thing. I don't think Japanese proficiency should be a prerequisite for becoming a resident, but IMHO maybe residents should be required to learn Japanese.

There are plenty of situations where a lack of Japanese ability can really jam up the works. Almost anyone living here has times when they need to interact with shop clerks or police officers, and if the resident isn't making the slightest effort to know Japanese, it places a large burden on these servicepeople to deal with members of society who aren't trying to become a part of the society.

I think it's a bit bizzare that it's possible to obtain a Japanese driver's license without being able to read even hiragana or katakana. Road signs convey important information that is relevant to everyone on the road, not just the nihonjin.

I think living in Japan without trying to learn Japanese is tremendously disrespectful and Japan shouldn't have to accept people who show that kind of disregard for the comfort of the people of Japan. In a way, this proposal could be seen as a step towards the integration of foreigners, by requiring them to possess the rudiments to participate in Japanese society.

There is the case of people who get transfered to Japan for work without a particular desire to go to Japan. For such people, it would be the company's responsibility to make sure that their employees are up to speed with the requirements. The JET Programme already provides a wide range of Japanese language courses, free of charge, to its participants.

[epigene]

My apologies in advance for not having read through the thread, but what is the definition for "long-term stay"?

I don't think the proficiency requirement will be imposed on those with study or work visas and assume it will be for people who seek permanent residence and eventually Japanese citizenship?

[orochi]

My apologies in advance for not having read through the thread, but what is the definition for "long-term stay"?
I don't think the proficiency requirement will be imposed on those with study or work visas and assume it will be for people who seek permanent residence and eventually Japanese citizenship?

I don't think the government knows yet, either. In the Japanese articles, they refer to 長期滞在, so 短期滞在(tourist visas, etc) and 永住(permanent residence) are likely not going to be affected.

[Taiko666]

\
I know Belgium isn't unique for that mather. I'm mostly talking about European countries. Anyway as for my 'self-satisfied' opinion, I have you got the point that learning a language shouldn't be a burden. I'm aware that English native speakers may worry more about this because foreign languages are usually less taught at a young age. That is not the fault of English native speakers. It's the fault of the education system for one part, and also the fact that English is the number 1 international language so why bother learning other languages..
I'm sure that the test level won't be amazingly high. Knowing that you have to get JLPT 2 to enter most Japanese colleges. If he/she isn't willing to learn Japanese, then yes he/she should face the consequences. If you have 'contributed' to the Japanese society for an amount of years, you should have some respect towards Japanese society itself also. And what is the best way to show respect to society ? Yes, learn the language.

I agree learning languages shouldn't be a burden, it should be a highly enjoyable and rewarding experience (as was/is my learning Japanese, and even my 'Franglais' French!) But making it a legal requirement (learn it or lose your livelihood) turns it into an incredibly heavy burden.

I hope the test will be fairy straightforward. But common sense is a rare commodity among J-politicians. And even if it's only JLPT4, bear in mind that nihongo looks incredibly scary to new-starters. Even having to learn kana and 50 kanji in order to get a visa would be enough to disuade many workers from even considering coming to Japan.

[Elizabeth]

My apologies in advance for not having read through the thread, but what is the definition for "long-term stay"?
I don't think the proficiency requirement will be imposed on those with study or work visas and assume it will be for people who seek permanent residence and eventually Japanese citizenship?
Yes, for long term residents but not only at the time they apply for residency. As it's being considered by the MOJ, language ability would apparently be part of a "landing examination" at the time of entrance into a country for those people. That score would serve as a baseline measure which would be reassessed for improvement upon visa renewal or other change in residency status. Those "improvements" would then be taken into consideration by immigration for approval or not. Here is one Japanese article from Mainichi :

政府は日本に長期滞在する外国人の入国や在留許可審査の際、日本語能力を要件として重視する具体策を外務、 法務両省が検討することを決めた。就労目的などで増加傾向にある外国人が地域社会に溶け込みやすい環境整備 につなげるとともに、来日する外国人にも日本語学習意欲を高めてもらうのが狙い。

　高村正彦外相が１５日の閣議後会見で明らかにした。外相は「日本語能力は、外国人自身の生活の質を高める ためにも、日本社会のためにも大切」と強調したうえで「『日本へ行くために日本語を勉強しよう』という機運 が高まれば大変よいことだ」と述べた。

　具体的には、入国時の上陸審査基準に日本語能力を新たに盛り込むかどうかや、在留期間の更新、資格変更時 に日本語能力の向上について確認するなど、何らかの形で考慮することが検討対象となる見通し。外務省による と、カナダでは就労目的の永住者が査証申請時に提出する略歴で、語学力を含む６項目をポイント化し、総ポイ ント数に応じて許可。英国、ドイツ、フランスで語学能力を重視する移民政策を取っているという 。

　ただ、政府内には、要件を厳しくすることで「査証（ビザ）の発給・更新などに影響が生じ、貴重な人材が入 国できなくなる可能性もある」との課題を指摘する声もある。【上野央絵】

[epigene]

In the article Elizabeth posted, I can read that the government came up with the idea "but with hesistance and absence of consensus within."

It isn't reasonable to make language proficiency a requirement at "landing," and I think they are considering proficiency (probably rudimentary) as requirement in visa extension. The reference to Canada's requirement by MOFA says "for permanent residents planning to work." Probably that's what the Japanese government has in mind.

The closing remark suggests hesistance to implement it for fear of losing talented people who hope to come to Japan and work here. (The concluding sentence is usually the gist of the article.)

[Glenski]

I agree with epigene. How can someone who has just entered the country know whether he/she is going to be a long-term resident (ie, someone with PR)? Unfair and stupid to impose a test on someone like that. If "long-term resident" means a refugee, as is one of the definitions for a Long-term Resident visa holder [http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/04.html Refugees as stipulated by the convention relating to the Status of Refugees, Indochinese refugee settlers, second- and third-generation Japanese settlers, etc.], then Japan has automatically put a lock on the doors to refugees, since they cannot be expected to know enough Japanese from day zero to survive daily living conditions. But perhaps that is precisely what the Japanese want.

As for people with work visas being exempt (per epigene's 10:17 comment), why would you say that? Some people hold work visas for many years. It takes 10 years for a single person to become eligible for PR, so how else would a single person stay in the system? To spin off from your remark above, though, just how long on a work visa would the MOJ consider a person to be a "long-term resident"? 3 years? 5? 7.3426? Less than 10% of foreigners who come here (excluding those who stay only 6 months or less, essentially tourists) remain longer than 3 years. So, why even bother testing that small number?

[Elizabeth]

As for people with work visas being exempt (per epigene's 10:17 comment), why would you say that? Some people hold work visas for many years. It takes 10 years for a single person to become eligible for PR, so how else would a single person stay in the system? To spin off from your remark above, though, just how long on a work visa would the MOJ consider a person to be a "long-term resident"? 3 years? 5? 7.3426? Less than 10% of foreigners who come here (excluding those who stay only 6 months or less, essentially tourists) remain longer than 3 years. So, why even bother testing that small number?
Yes, I believe 5 although it wasn't clarified in the article. And workers exempt ?? Other than the reference epigene made to the Canadian model testing applicants on work visas, the original is equally vague if not more so. Because obviously it is a policy still under works so to speak, in the initial stages of development. And finally, please appreciate the translation work that goes into this before misquoting and becoming semi-hysterical. :sorry:

The first sentence just FYI, loosely told, reads something like this :

就労目的などで増加傾向にある外国人が地域社会に溶け込みやすい環境整備につなげるとともに、来日する外国 人にも日本語学習意欲を高めてもらうのが狙い。

As the number of foreigners seeking work in Japan increases, it is our aim to ease their integration, as well as visitors, into society by asking for an increased desire to learn the language.

[Dogen Z]

One would have to wonder why the sudden shift, if this is truly their reason? Decades have gone by with absolutely no inkling of this. Japan is happy telling people it is difficult/impossible to learn its language, and many live happy existences based on the notion that Japan is a "homogeneous" nation.
Of course, I think you can tell I am being sarcastic above, but I thought I should just point that out.
Besides, the article clearly states that this potential policy change is based on protection from terrorism, not any real sort of integration or alleviation of the negative birthrate. Let's hope that along with the language policy (if it ever surfaces) comes language lessons available for those who desire them (especially the Brazilians) and a tearing down of the "no foreigners" signs, many of which are aimed at Brazilians themselves.

Just for your information, IMO means "In my opinion". I'm not a government spokesman...unless the government decides to send me a truckload of cash with bills that have lots of zeros on them. I't's not easy or cheap cleaning up all those horrible PR blunders that the Ministers fall into.....I wouldn't be able to do the job for anything less than 2 oku en...oh, but I digress..sorry. :blush:

IMO (In my opinion), foreigners who chose to plant their behinds here should not have a feeling of entitlement. Moving to another country is not like moving from one part of your country to another like say New York to California. If they are facing hardships then they will have to make efforts to overcome those hardships. Find a class or study in their spare time. Whatever it takes.

Of course, if you have some expertise that is needed, the company you work for will make those hardships disappear--through the standard expat package, classes, interpreters, etc. Actually, the HR dept. will handle everything for you.

[thatsme]

If someone decide to reside in Japan, or for the sake of argument in any other country, obviuosly if there is not a huge amount of human that can understand his/her language, the common sence will dictate that is better to learn the language.
No need to make special law about it.
As long as you don't give extra burden to the community, should'nt be a problem.

If we look at the general human way of living and I say it again (GENERAL) We only need the language spoken to whatever country, for shopping, in case we can't find what we need, transport in case we get lost or need direction, anything else? realistically speaking?

[Glenski]

Misquoting? Semi-hysterical? Puh-lease, Elizabeth.

Your own words show my feelings on this article: "it wasn't clarified in the article", and "the original is equally vague". About all we can do on this forum is speculate, and I don't like speculating without much background. All I have to go on is the MOJ's history of doing things (often the wrong way towards foreigners).

Ocean Dude,
I recognized your "IMO" and made sure of that by quoting you entirely. My comments were not directed at you so much as they were at the MOJ. Sorry if you took it the other way. My point is very simple: if this article truly represents a shift in the pattern, why so suddenly? It doesn't fit the pattern, and the article tried to slip in terrorism as a partial reason with no support. That's all.

thatsme,
I would like to have Elizabeth explain much better what sort of "extra burden" she feels exists with people who have stayed here a long time yet not learned a great deal of Japanese. I'm not disagreeing that people should learn the language, but her previous use of the term "freeloader" seems to equate with your use of "burden". Perhaps you could also explain what you mean...? What I object to in the article is twofold:

1) the poor reasons they give for doing this, and
2) the huge vagueness in what they intend and for whom.

[JimmySeal]

1) the poor reasons they give for doing this The aim of the measures is to make it easier for the increasing number of non-Japanese in Japan to blend into the community
I think the above is a perfectly good reason.

People who live in a foreign country for several years and are determined not to learn the local language are freeloaders. Not in the monetary, strictly literal sense, but freeloaders nonetheless. They take for granted the kindness and patience of service people and other members of society to interact with them, while at the same time putting in no personal preparation to make those interactions easier for either party. It's their responsibility to do that, and if enacted in a rational way, I wouldn't fault the Japanese government for trying to enforce it.

So far, nobody has made any response to what I said about driver's licenses above. I am curious to hear what people have to say to that.

[Anatoli]

If we talk about difficulty of spoken Japanese, do you really think it's a very difficult language? IMHO, it's not harder than many European languages, especially taking into account the huge influx of English words. People usually learn Japanese by also learning the complex script but there are shortcuts, if you're only interested or have to learn only the spoken language (without Kanji). Japanese is considered very complex because of its writing, everything else is either the same or easier.

We don't know but if the test is only for spoken Japanese, then one can get from the basic to the intermediate level just by using heaps of romanised or supplied with Furigana materials. Would you agree? Even JLPT tests usually don't really on good knowledge of Kanji, would government tests be more complex?

Anyway, I know that anyone who attends conversational classes gets a good grounding in spoken Japanese, even if they don't live in Japan. Doing it in Japan only makes it much easier.

[bakaKanadajin]

1) the poor reasons they give for doing this, and
2) the huge vagueness in what they intend and for whom.

Few governments have clear reasons on why they're doing something because the age of the monarchy is complete and input from a hundred or so politicians will do that.

Vagueness is a great tool for governments to employ so that they can apply their policies with greater flexibility. I don't think this is inimical to the Japanese government alone. (And I'm not saying you think it is, either).

I don't see what the big deal is. If you're worried about more rights and freedoms being taken away from foreigners living in Japan as you usally are then what freedom is being threatened here? The right to ignorance?

[Glenski]

So far, nobody has made any response to what I said about driver's licenses above. I am curious to hear what people have to say to that.
I think it's a bit bizzare that it's possible to obtain a Japanese driver's license without being able to read even hiragana or katakana. Road signs convey important information that is relevant to everyone on the road, not just the nihonjin.Getting your license may actually involve some knowledge of the written language. Depends on the license bureau.
1) You may have to get your license translated. That could involve finding JAF.
2) At the license station, you will have to know which line to stand in. Do all stations have signs in English?
3) Do all test examiners speak English when they give you the drive around the course, or when they explain why you failed (or missed points)?
4) As for road signs, my subjective feeling is that there is more in the way of kanji than hiragana/katakana that helps people.
But, it is incredible that with only a smidgeon of Japanese ability, one can actually get a license here. Then again, what does it take to get a license in your home country? Any language tests needed?

[Glenski]

If we talk about difficulty of spoken Japanese, do you really think it's a very difficult language? IMHO, it's not harder than many European languages, especially taking into account the huge influx of English words. People usually learn Japanese by also learning the complex script but there are shortcuts, if you're only interested or have to learn only the spoken language (without Kanji). Japanese is considered very complex because of its writing, everything else is either the same or easier.One difficulty is in the honorifics vs. polite forms vs. casual forms. Another lies in how certain things are spoken, depending on who is the target. (Talk about yourself, the person you are with, or someone not around, and you might have to use different grammar, for example.)

What "shortcuts" are you referring to?

We don't know but if the test is only for spoken Japanese, then one can get from the basic to the intermediate level just by using heaps of romanised or supplied with Furigana materials. Would you agree?No.

Even JLPT tests usually don't really on good knowledge of Kanji, would government tests be more complex?Who can say? It's all too preliminary to know.

Anyway, I know that anyone who attends conversational classes gets a good grounding in spoken Japanese, even if they don't live in Japan. Doing it in Japan only makes it much easier.I'd like to introduce you to the teacher provided by city hall in my town recently. You'd have a totally different opinion. Pretty much every one of the 15 other students who attended felt the same as me. Many quit out of frustration with her methods. There was no "grounding" at all.

[Glenski]

I don't see what the big deal is. If you're worried about more rights and freedoms being taken away from foreigners living in Japan as you usally are then what freedom is being threatened here? The right to ignorance?I don't think people are talking about anyone's rights being taken away.

Look at it from this perspective, though.

You are a work visa holder who may have been here 5 years (to use Elizabeth's proposal as a "long-term resident"). You didn't learn a lot of Japanese for whatever reason, and suddenly the government says, "Hold on, buddy boy. You can't renew your visa until you show us you can read/speak/write (whatever) Japanese to our satisfaction."

Now impose that same policy on someone with a family here.

Or on a refugee.

Are you beginning to see what the big deal is now?

People can talk until they are blue in the face about what the policy might actually be. Fine. Do that. Until I see a clearer explanation, it is all up in the air, though, and it is equally fair to look at things from the darkest extreme.

And to link this sort of thing with combatting terrorism is ludicrous, yet the MOJ has done precisely that. No grounds for it, yet it's there. If you can't understand the implications of that, look at the fingerprinting threads.

[mr.sumo.snr]

All of a sudden casual, 'tongue-in-cheek' posts suggesting an unqualified work visa-seeker find themselves a nice Japanese girl/boy, get hitched, get a spouse visa and thereby free themselves of any qualification requirements in order to remain in the country sound like thoroughly sound advice.

Maybe this is a new government incentive to counter the declining birthrate.

--

[thatsme]

thatsme,
I would like to have Elizabeth explain much better what sort of "extra burden" she feels exists with people who have stayed here a long time yet not learned a great deal of Japanese. I'm not disagreeing that people should learn the language, but her previous use of the term "freeloader" seems to equate with your use of "burden". Perhaps you could also explain what you mean...? What I object to in the article is twofold:
1) the poor reasons they give for doing this, and
2) the huge vagueness in what they intend and for whom.

Maybe I used the wrong terminology (extra burden?)
I made few examples of how realistically some one that has decided to reside in Japan would come to a realization to learn few words without relying toomuch on other people kindness, I am sure that you will find billions of human in any galaxy that would not mind to help someone who can't speak the lingo to direct them to the right place or even take them to the right department store, nevertheless, you rather want to be able to do the basics by your self.

What ever the agenda is for the government to implement this new law it does'nt matter, it is good to argue about it, but you can't or don't have the power to change what you don't agree about.

So basically either you agree and go with the flow or moan, both are ok, moaning is good to relieave us from the stress!!!

[Elizabeth]

I don't think people are talking about anyone's rights being taken away.
Look at it from this perspective, though.
You are a work visa holder who may have been here 5 years (to use Elizabeth's proposal as a "long-term resident"). You didn't learn a lot of Japanese for whatever reason, and suddenly the government says, "Hold on, buddy boy. You can't renew your visa until you show us you can read/speak/write (whatever) Japanese to our satisfaction."
Now impose that same policy on someone with a family here.
Or on a refugee.
Are you beginning to see what the big deal is now?
People can talk until they are blue in the face about what the policy might actually be. Fine. Do that. Until I see a clearer explanation, it is all up in the air, though, and it is equally fair to look at things from the darkest extreme.
If that is how you are determined to react, I'm not interested in thanklessly expending further effort on translations. However, if read carefully and in their entirety, the Japanese version does give the best available preliminary indication of MOJ's dilemma in heightening social integration among workers & other long term residents without losing valuable human assets in the process. It's a super sensitive juggling act that quite obviously doesn't lend itself to extremities.

But before preceeding to lose any more support in this group deeper down that dark and isolated road of spinning extreme scenarios please re-read what epigenesan and I have already excerpted from the original and explain to me how the procedure of a landing exam followed by a re-test at visa renewal

1).
squares with requiring refugees, or anyone initially coming into the country, to have the least knowledge whatsoever of the language.

As stated, the policy wouldn't even cover current NJ residents.


It is for long term residents but not only at the time they apply for residency. As it's being considered by the MOJ, language ability would apparently be part of a "landing examination" at the time of entrance into a country for those people. That score would serve as a baseline measure which would be reassessed for improvement upon visa renewal or other change in residency status. Those "improvements" would then be taken into consideration by immigration for approval or not.



In the article Elizabeth posted, I can read that the government came up with the idea "but with hesistance and absence of consensus within."

It isn't reasonable to make language proficiency a requirement at "landing," and I think they are considering proficiency (probably rudimentary) as requirement in visa extension. The reference to Canada's requirement by MOFA says "for permanent residents planning to work." Probably that's what the Japanese government has in mind.

The closing remark suggests hesistance to implement it for fear of losing talented people who hope to come to Japan and work here. (The concluding sentence is usually the gist of the article.)

[Elizabeth]

Another lies in how certain things are spoken, depending on who is the target. (Talk about yourself, the person you are with, or someone not around, and you might have to use different grammar, for example.)
"Might" I suppose being the operative word. In actuality, there are no significant grammatical differences depending on the target.

I went to the park.
He went to the park.
You (standing next to me) went to the park.

Just as in English, the only difference comes in the pronouns "I" "He" or "you."

[Kyoto Returnee]

A little bit silly I thought seen as though Japan is "trying" to internationalize.

What Japan needs is people to learn more English for when it does become international.

[kireikoori]

Just how good does my Japanese have to be for a "long stay"?

[Glenski]

What ever the agenda is for the government to implement this new law it does'nt matter
I can't honestly see the logic at all in that statement. Moreover, your profile is very confusing. It states you are Italian and have never been to Japan, yet you are listed as being IN Japan. What gives?

"Doesn't matter"????????? How on earth do you figure? One doesn't have to look on the Dark Side to see that there are potentially negative issues here.

[orochi]

"Might" I suppose being the operative word. In actuality, there are no significant grammatical differences depending on the target.


There are quite a few differences, I think. I'm with Glenski on this one. For example, the way you can only use ほしい related to what you or the listener wants. If you want to talk about a third party, you need to use ほしがる, ほしいみたい, ほしいといってた, etc etc.

A lot of Japanese is based on only being able to speak from your own perspective and not being able to make "factual" statements based on suppositions of what a third party might be thinking, feeling, or doing.

[bakaKanadajin]

I don't think people are talking about anyone's rights being taken away.

Look at it from this perspective, though.

You are a work visa holder who may have been here 5 years (to use Elizabeth's proposal as a "long-term resident"). You didn't learn a lot of Japanese for whatever reason, and suddenly the government says, "Hold on, buddy boy. You can't renew your visa until you show us you can read/speak/write (whatever) Japanese to our satisfaction."

Now impose that same policy on someone with a family here.

Or on a refugee.

Are you beginning to see what the big deal is now?

People can talk until they are blue in the face about what the policy might actually be. Fine. Do that. Until I see a clearer explanation, it is all up in the air, though, and it is equally fair to look at things from the darkest extreme.

And to link this sort of thing with combatting terrorism is ludicrous, yet the MOJ has done precisely that. No grounds for it, yet it's there. If you can't understand the implications of that, look at the fingerprinting threads.

Fair enough but I don't think they'd throw you in a burlap sack and ship you out just because you failed the test. Furthermore there would have to be some kind of grace period and there would be accessibility issues for foreigners living in areas where lessons are not as widely available (although they'd be the rarer cases). People with families would obviously be considered differently than a 20 year old from the West who's here to teach English and party and just forgot to go home.

What I mean is that I think if this rule was applied with the same amount of consideration that most other rules are applied to foreigners (that is, the Japanese bureaucracy as far as I've dealt with it is usually vehicled by at least one live human being who speaks a little bit of English, instead of voice jail or form 2B which is increasingly prevalent in Western governments) the process will not be as painful as you seem to think it is.

Linking things to terrorism is fairly comon in allied countries. If I had to guess at why it's even mentioned I'd say linking it to terrorism probably satisfies some mundane stipulation being imposed by the US or related post 9/11 mandates.

[orochi]

> Linking things to terrorism is fairly comon in allied countries.

I didn't see terrorism pop up in any of the Japanese language articles on this issue.
I only saw it in the English language press coverage.
Make your own assumptions. hmmmm....

[Elizabeth]

There are quite a few differences, I think. I'm with Glenski on this one. For example, the way you can only use ほしい related to what you or the listener wants. If you want to talk about a third party, you need to use ほしがる, ほしいみたい, ほしいといってた, etc etc.
Actually I believe you can use ほしい for a third party (from another thread) and I've certainly seen it but you're right there are many cases it may be best to find a way around it.

A lot of Japanese is based on only being able to speak from your own perspective and not being able to make "factual" statements based on suppositions of what a third party might be thinking, feeling, or doing.
Yes, that's true. You certainly cannot use "probably" "seems like" "appears" etc for ones own feelings, although I wouldn't in English either. Sorry for being misleading. I was only thinking of basic grammar like verb conjugations when I wrote that.

[orochi]

> Actually I believe you can use ほしい for a third party (from another thread)

Got a link by chance?

[Glenski]

Fair enough but I don't think they'd throw you in a burlap sack and ship you out just because you failed the test. Furthermore there would have to be some kind of grace period and there would be accessibility issues for foreigners living in areas where lessons are not as widely available (although they'd be the rarer cases). People with families would obviously be considered differently than a 20 year old from the West who's here to teach English and party and just forgot to go home.

What I mean is that I think if this rule was applied with the same amount of consideration that most other rules are applied to foreigners (that is, the Japanese bureaucracy as far as I've dealt with it is usually vehicled by at least one live human being who speaks a little bit of English, instead of voice jail or form 2B which is increasingly prevalent in Western governments) the process will not be as painful as you seem to think it is. The fact is...there is no facts yet. You and others can make the above suppositions. I can make mine. Nobody knows how many burlap bags will be needed. Why people think the government, with its bad history towards foreigners, will be any more respectful this time is beyond me.

The fact that the original and the English version are different should make people sit up and take notice. This is indeed common practice, but it begs the question why.

Why should there be information deleted from one version?
Why should there be two interpretations?

I wouldn't want to be the foreigner who goes in for whatever reason, thinking he believes the truth from the English version of the news, only to find out he is wrong, penalized, kicked out, whatever when the MOJ official across the desk says, "So sorry. The Japanese version is the correct one. You should have read that one in order to understand the language test." Catch-22, game, set and match.

[Elizabeth]

> Actually I believe you can use ほしい for a third party (from another thread)

Got a link by chance?
Yeah, it was talked about here. There may be regional differences or whatever but I've also asked a couple friends at various times and got essentially that same response (not ungrammatical but not used a lot).

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33366&highlight=car

[orochi]

> that response

Which response?
The thread pretty much seems to state that you typically shouldn't use ほしい with third parties.

[Elizabeth]

> that response

Which response?
The thread pretty much seems to state that you typically shouldn't use ほしい with third parties.
Nekocats response. Typically is what I said also. No one else reading this thread is too interested (can you make that assumption in English ?:) , but you are in Japan -- inquire of someone there. :)

[orochi]

???

I don't need to inquire with anybody.

[thatsme]

I can't honestly see the logic at all in that statement. Moreover, your profile is very confusing. It states you are Italian and have never been to Japan, yet you are listed as being IN Japan. What gives?
"Doesn't matter"????????? How on earth do you figure? One doesn't have to look on the Dark Side to see that there are potentially negative issues here.

You are right it is confusing.
I have been living with the japanese comunity for about 20 years.
I purposely wrote on my profile that I never been in japan, my sarcastic nature sometime makes me be weird.
I do agree that there is not logic in your eyes on my above statment, but not to my eyes.
If Japan decide to go ahead with implmenting that, can you do anything to revert it?
that is why I stated that it does'nt matter what we think about the policy, the only freedom we have left is to argue about it.
And if Japan will decide to the the U turn it will be decided by the Japanese and not by us "ALIENS"

[Glenski]

You are right it is confusing.
I have been living with the japanese comunity for about 20 years.
I purposely wrote on my profile that I never been in japan, my sarcastic nature sometime makes me be weird.I have a different word for it.

I do agree that there is not logic in your eyes on my above statment, but not to my eyes.
If Japan decide to go ahead with implmenting that, can you do anything to revert it?Implementing what? As I have been saying, there are no specifics in the article about a proposed policy. If you want to create some hypothetical ones, I'd be happy to give you an answer.

In a general sense, though, if a policy is created that goes against human rights or is in some other way unfair, then yes, ther eis something people can do about it. Protest. It has already made some changes in Japan. Sadly, they are slow ones.

nd if Japan will decide to the the U turn it will be decided by the Japanese and not by us "ALIENS"That doesn't mean we aliens have zero say in the matter.

[thatsme]

I have a different word for it.
Implementing what? As I have been saying, there are no specifics in the article about a proposed policy. If you want to create some hypothetical ones, I'd be happy to give you an answer.
In a general sense, though, if a policy is created that goes against human rights or is in some other way unfair, then yes, ther eis something people can do about it. Protest. It has already made some changes in Japan. Sadly, they are slow ones.
That doesn't mean we aliens have zero say in the matter.
I did use the word of "IF" so it should imply an hypothetical argument.
And yes we do have a say, that does'nt mean we have the power to do anything in a country where human right is only a word in many cases.
But if you ask me I would'nt go against to motivate people to learn the language

[Glenski]

Your "if" still has no meaning. What is the policy that you allude to? Be specific, or there is no hypothesis. If you say "the policy in the article(s), then you have not been reading. There IS no policy defined.

[thatsme]

Your "if" still has no meaning. What is the policy that you allude to? Be specific, or there is no hypothesis. If you say "the policy in the article(s), then you have not been reading. There IS no policy defined.

OK OK,
I got you, Hypothetically speaking then, If the policy, low, whatever term I should use, is/will be implemented/defined/finilized, we would have had this discussion, since nothing has been defined, we should forget that this conversation has ever taken place.

I hope I have been specific enough.
Have a great day/night
Peace to you and all

[bakaKanadajin]

There IS no policy defined.
so whats the big stink about then?

[Elizabeth]

OK OK,
I got you, Hypothetically speaking then, If the policy, low, whatever term I should use, is/will be implemented/defined/finilized, we would have had this discussion, since nothing has been defined, we should forget that this conversation has ever took place.
I hope I have been specific enough.
Have a great day/night
Peace to you and all
Just remember to thank and heartily appreciate the natives that are willing to put forth what can be a tremendous effort on their part to do your English for you. Cause no one has ANY obligation whatsoever to rescue a foreigner that isn't even trying.:bluush:



One difficulty is in the honorifics vs. polite forms vs. casual forms. Another lies in how certain things are spoken, depending on who is the target. (Talk about yourself, the person you are with, or someone not around, and you might have to use different grammar, for example.)And you think that most Japanese are comfortable speaking at this level of nuance in English ?? :okashii:

[Pachipro]

Just how good does my Japanese have to be for a "long stay"?
I learned once that you are considered "fluent"/proficient in a language if you can conduct your daily business in a foreign country without the basic aid of a translator.
Look, if you've lived in Japan (or any country for that matter) for more than 3 years and plan on staying there longer/indefinitely and have not learned how to hold a simple conversation (or whatever language) or even taken the time to learn how to read hiragana/katagana (or whatever language), for whatever reason (I don't care), then you should be ashamed of yourself. There are no excuses IMO for not learning the basics of the language of the country you are residing in and plan on living long term in.

Many people are just too lazy to learn the local language. So they depend on their girlfriend/boyfriend, wife/husband/"significant other", or the foreign community, to get on with their life and simply skate by while demanding and insisting that the country they are residing in change to suit their needs. That is utterly arrogant!

Japan is not simply going to kick out long term foreigners/residents if they hold a responsible job and/or have a Japanese spouse and children (regardless of whether they can speak any Japanese at all). Also, they will not simply deport single foreigners if they understand the basics of Japanese and can otherwise get on with their lives by simply going to the post office, shopping, travelling, asking for directions, get basic medical care, talk to the police in times of emergency, etc. on their own. Nowhere did I get the impression that the government was demanding, or the story insisting, that a person be fluent or near native speaker level.

This is just foreign hysteria gone amok (as usual) thinking that they will be deported, and that the Japanese are racist if they are unable to conduct their daily business in the local language.

If, however, you are a long-term single resident of Japan and cannot do the basics without a translator, then you should be denied an extension of your visa based on your ignorance and stupidity as, if you cannot even learn the basics of the country you plan on living in long-term, then you will be nothing but a burdon to society in general and probably can not add much to the country you are living in other than demand that they change to suit your needs.

[thatsme]

Just remember to thank and heartily appreciate the natives that are willing to put forth what can be a tremendous effort on their part to do your English for you. Cause no one has ANY obligation whatsoever to rescue a foreigner that isn't even trying.:bluush:

THANKS THEN!!!!
If it has been incredibly difficult for you to understand my post due to my basic understanding of the English language I apologize.
Thanks again for your effort to try to understand my incomprehesible English written expression.
With the hope that in the future my written English will improve.

Peace to all

[Elizabeth]

THANKS THEN!!!!
If it has been incredibly difficult for you to understand my post due to my basic understanding of the English language I apologize.
Thanks again for your effort to try to understand my incomprehesible English written expression.
With the hope that in the future my written English will improve.
Peace to all
No, not again...not another misunderstanding. :-) My reminder was for anyone harboring such an ambivilance towards their Japanese life that it is allowed it to spill over into a mistreatment of the locals.


In case you weren't aware, your posts, thatsme, are a pure joy to read. They are so inspiring in fact I really do want to become like you someday. :p

[ArmandV]

This is just foreign hysteria gone amok (as usual)


Ironic statement from our resident conspiratorialist. ;-)

[Glenski]

so whats the big stink about then?
You're joking, right?

The MOJ tosses a bone to the masses via the press, about a possible language requirement for people who want to stay here long-term. That's news in itself, but the other 99% of the information is pointless garbled chatter that offers nothing concrete and only serves to agitate people who may or may not even be involved in the new policy.

Why did they even announce something so premature? Many people (not just me) are confused, upset, angry, etc. about the lack of clear information.

That's the main stink.

Everything else hinges on who will actually be tested, how, at what point in their visa status, etc. Since none of this was clearly stated, it's infuriating and insulting, and serves no purpose. So, again, I ask why announce it?

Lastly, the backhanded mention of terrorism as a reason for all of this is unsubstantiated tripe from the government, perhaps looking for sympathy or empathy from the locals in order to get support for this unclear policy.

Maybe their whole purpose was simply to stir up conversation, but they could have done it in a much better way.

It all stinks.

Quote:One difficulty is in the honorifics vs. polite forms vs. casual forms. Another lies in how certain things are spoken, depending on who is the target. (Talk about yourself, the person you are with, or someone not around, and you might have to use different grammar, for example.)

And you think that most Japanese are comfortable speaking at this level of nuance in English ??
You lost me. There is hardly any level of "nuance" like that in English, and the point is lost because at least the Japanese get 6 years of mandatory grammar lessons.

The point I was trying to make, supported by someone else here, is this. Try things like yotee vs. tsumori just as one example. One has to remember how to use this "nuance" because it's not as straightforward as the pronouns in English usage.

[Glenski]

Japan is not simply going to kick out long term foreigners/residents if they hold a responsible job and/or have a Japanese spouse and children (regardless of whether they can speak any Japanese at all).There is nothing in all the articles nor in the history of immigration to support that. You are taking the MOJ bait by furthering the discussion.

Also, they will not simply deport single foreigners if they understand the basics of Japanese and can otherwise get on with their lives by simply going to the post office, shopping, travelling, asking for directions, get basic medical care, talk to the police in times of emergency, etc. on their own.Hello! We don't know what to expect on the test. Have you seen otherwise?

Nowhere did I get the impression that the government was demanding, or the story insisting, that a person be fluent or near native speaker level.Again, the MOJ is unclear what they want at this point.

If, however, you are a long-term single resident of Japan and cannot do the basics without a translator, then you should be denied an extension of your visa based on your ignorance and stupidity as, if you cannot even learn the basics of the country you plan on living in long-term, then you will be nothing but a burdon to society in general and probably can not add much to the country you are living in other than demand that they change to suit your needs.You are contradicting yourself. Didn't you just write this?
Japan is not simply going to kick out long term foreigners/residents if they hold a responsible job and/or have a Japanese spouse and children (regardless of whether they can speak any Japanese at all)

[Elizabeth]

You lost me. There is hardly any level of "nuance" like that in English, and the point is lost because at least the Japanese get 6 years of mandatory grammar lessons.
The point I was trying to make, supported by someone else here, is this. Try things like yotee vs. tsumori just as one example. One has to remember how to use this "nuance" because it's not as straightforward as the pronouns in English usage.
I'm even more confused now. So we are supposed to buy the argument that not able to distinguish similar relatively subtle and sophisticated usages is a reasonable excuse for not initiating a learning process at all ?

That's easy enough to counter. Just take a few seconds to consider what would happen if the Japanese being relied on for day to day functioning decided not to extend their good will out of concern that they would mix up two articles or pronouns, that a postal employee holding a book of stamps on the counter might mistakenly confuse "You want the five stamps?" with "These five" or any similarly nuanced delivery. Or even more unbelievably that the average Tanaka-san off the street is confident in his knowledge of the difference between "plan" and "intends" and that is vital to your getting by on your own in the country ??

Buy a damn phrase book, spend half and hour a night on each chapter, plus 5 kanji, practice the sentences on a friend or spouse and "go live" with at least one the next day. Geez. How hard can it be after hearing this stuff nonstop for what, 10 or so years ?? :blush:

[orochi]

> How hard can it be after hearing this stuff nonstop for what, 10 or so years ??

Not everybody lives in that kind of environment, though.

[Glenski]

Can you lower your condescension meter about 50% and just try to see what is being said here? What is your actual experience living and working in Japan again? Less than a year, right?

[Anatoli]

This thread sucks the juice out of the Japanese language topics.

So many hours of Japanese could have been done. :(

[Chidoriashi]

ok I got to about page three but Im out of reading time for now.. so I will just put my two cents in.

Personally I really dont see a problem requiring people who want to renew their work visa after 3 years to have at least past the JLPT level 3 or something. It is really not that much of a stretch to do it and it demonstrates basic proficiency in the language. A colleague of mine came to Japan with no ability and after a year and a half passed the 3rd level test. I do think asking much more than level 3 could be kind of burdensome for some people, but hopefully it would lay ground work for people to just go on improving their japanese naturally as they continue to live here beyond 3 years.

I mean back home in the US i feel that English needs to be made the national language and immigrants who want to stay long term should not be catered to, and be required to have some proficiency. So I would be a hypocrite to say Japan should not implement this policy.

Asking for some proficiency is not so bad.. Now.. asking everyone to become fluent in 3 years and be able to read the newspaper without a dictionary would BS.....

[thatsme]

No, not again...not another misunderstanding. :-) My reminder was for anyone harboring such an ambivilance towards their Japanese life that it is allowed it to spill over into a mistreatment of the locals.
In case you weren't aware, your posts, thatsme, are a pure joy to read. They are so inspiring in fact I really do want to become like you someday. :p
oops.
I guess I misunderstood you.
got it now!!!:wave:

[FrustratedDave]

I agree, make permanant resident applicants learn Japanese and the incentive other than not having to renew your visa every few years should be equal rights.
Ok now I have quit dreaming I will let you all discuss the topic!:relief:

[Pachipro]

Quote:If, however, you are a long-term single resident of Japan and cannot do the basics without a translator, then you should be denied an extension of your visa based on your ignorance and stupidity as, if you cannot even learn the basics of the country you plan on living in long-term, then you will be nothing but a burdon to society in general and probably can not add much to the country you are living in other than demand that they change to suit your needs.
You are contradicting yourself. Didn't you just write this?
Japan is not simply going to kick out long term foreigners/residents if they hold a responsible job and/or have a Japanese spouse and children (regardless of whether they can speak any Japanese at all)


Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. I will repeat again, I believe if you have a Japanese spouse or hold a "responsible job" (whatever that may be classified as) and cannot speak Japanese and thus have a difficult time getting on with your daily life by not being able to conduct your daily business in Japanese, than you will probably not be deported or denied an extension of your visa if it ever comes to that (which I doubt).

On the other hand, if you are just a run-of-the-mill English teacher, single (or have a foreign spouse), care not about the language or country/culture and just want to stay there because it's "easy money" then you, if it comes to that extreme, may well be denied an extension and rightly so.

Will it ever come to this for any and all foreigners? I think not, but you never know what the Japanese government will do. For now it's just talk and I believe it is a "trial baloon" thrown out to gage public opinion.

However, I still hold to my belief that if you live there and want to remain there, one should at least take the time and effort to study the basics of the language and culture.

[Elizabeth]

There is nothing in all the articles nor in the history of immigration to support that. You are taking the MOJ bait by furthering the discussion.
There was discussion in the Japanese article of a "6 point system" used by Canada that weights language ability, proportional to other factors, as submitted in a personal history statement at the time of a work visa application for permanent residency. Language learning is also heavily considered in Britain, Germany and France. Be enterprising and look up the details yourself because this is the most plausible framework I have come across yet for modeling a uniquely Japanese policy.


外務省による と、カナダでは就労目的の永住者が査証申請時に提出する略歴で、語学力を含む６項目をポイント 化し、総ポイ ント数に応じて許可。英国、ドイツ、フランスで語学能力を重視する移民政策を取っているという 。

[Iron Chef]

However, I still hold to my belief that if you live there and want to remain there, one should at least take the time and effort to study the basics of the language and culture.

I agree. If for no other reason than to enrich one's own experience while abroad. You get out of it what you put into it as the saying goes.

[ArmandV]

I agree. If for no other reason than to enrich one's own experience while abroad. You get out of it what you put into it as the saying goes.

I don't believe that anyone disagrees with this. The problem lies in the possibility that long-term residents may be forced into learning the language and taking some sort of test proving same in order to stay. As I said from the beginning, this seems to be antagonistic.

As it stands, it is a trial balloon and there are no specifics. The devil is in the details, should the government decides to pursue this.

[Glenski]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. I will repeat again, I believe if you have a Japanese spouse or hold a "responsible job" (whatever that may be classified as) and cannot speak Japanese and thus have a difficult time getting on with your daily life by not being able to conduct your daily business in Japanese, than you will probably not be deported or denied an extension of your visa if it ever comes to that (which I doubt).

On the other hand, if you are just a run-of-the-mill English teacher, single (or have a foreign spouse), care not about the language or country/culture and just want to stay there because it's "easy money" then you, if it comes to that extreme, may well be denied an extension and rightly so.You're trying to read the MOJ's mind. Ok, let's see about the next hypothetical. A person on spouse visa or PR thinks he doesn't have to learn much Japanese, that he can just coast on the system, and that he can make easy money here doing whatever. See? It's not so easy to classify. The MOJ is not going to consider this. They can't. People will lie.

"ME? Want to freeload on society??!! Heavens, NO! I want to stay longer and contribute to society..." (person then goes off to his easy-money job and life, laughing at the MOJ behind their backs that he has safely avoided taking any language test)

Wait and see who they want to give this test to and more on their reasons why.

Will it ever come to this for any and all foreigners? I think not, but you never know what the Japanese government will do. Exactly what I have been saying. We just don't know.

There was discussion in the Japanese article of a "6 point system" used by Canada that weights language ability, proportional to other factors, as submitted in a personal history statement at the time of a work visa application for permanent residency. Language learning is also heavily considered in Britain, Germany and France. Be enterprising and look up the details yourself because this is the most plausible framework I have come across yet for modeling a uniquely Japanese policy.
Help me out here, Elizabeth. What sort of people does this talk about in Japan? Permanent resident status holders? Work visa holders? Who?

I am not the one who needs to be enterprising here. Because the article chose to discuss this point only in Japanese, it irks me. How are the people who cannot read Japanese (in other words, the ones who are potentially going to be tested) supposed to be fully informed? This is one of the points I made earlier. Incomplete translation for the sake of the people affected.

[Glenski]

I don't believe that anyone disagrees with this. The problem lies in the possibility that long-term residents may be forced into learning the language and taking some sort of test proving same in order to stay. As I said from the beginning, this seems to be antagonistic.
As it stands, it is a trial balloon and there are no specifics. The devil is in the details, should the government decides to pursue this.
Agreed, no matter who is involved in the testing. It's a stick, not a carrot.

[Elizabeth]

Help me out here, Elizabeth. What sort of people does this talk about in Japan? Permanent resident status holders? Work visa holders? Who?
I am not the one who needs to be enterprising here. Because the article chose to discuss this point only in Japanese, it irks me. How are the people who cannot read Japanese (in other words, the ones who are potentially going to be tested) supposed to be fully informed? This is one of the points I made earlier. Incomplete translation for the sake of the people affected.
All I can repeat is word for word what the article states as the information orochi, epigene and myself have already indicated -- which is that at various points the focus shifts from foreigners "staying long-term" to a more general "development/integration campaign" to get those on a work visa, students etc interested in the language and finally back to "long term residents" and workers again (drawn from the Canadian scheme).

Only the first sentence provides a specific link to the agenda the MOJ/MOFA study is set to undertake.
.
日本に長期滞在する外国人の入国や在留許可審査の際、(Foreigners staying long-term in Japan would presumably be tested at the time of entry (that's the "landing examination" -- obviously they are not applying for that status initially, so perhaps a test administered uniformly across all visa holders??) and again as part of the Residency Approval examination ?? --> ! Not to worry if it doesn't ring a bell term, this is I think either made up by the writer or MOJ/MOFA.

在留期間の更新、資格変更時 (Long term residents would be tested again for "improvement" in Japanese skills at the time of visa renewal or changes in status ??).

[Glenski]

All I can repeat is word for word what the article states as the information orochi, epigene and myself have already indicated -- which is that at various points the focus shifts from foreigners "staying long-term" to a more general "development/integration campaign" to get those on a work visa, students etc interested in the language and finally back to "long term residents" and workers again (drawn from the Canadian scheme).And, as I have written, this is too vague especially with the next info below.

Only the first sentence provides a specific link to the agenda the MOJ/MOFA study is set to undertake.
.
日本に長期滞在する外国人の入国や在留許可審査の際、 (Foreigners staying long-term in Japan would presumably be tested at the time of entryTotal B.S. or a horrible description by the MOJ and/or newspaper. (both of which I have already stated) It's B.S. because if you try to apply this description to all visa holders as you, epigene, orochi, etc. have suggested it means, then it's impossible to do. Simply put, nobody knows they are going to be a long-term resident upon their initial entry.

(that's the "landing examination" -- obviously they are not applying for that status initially,What status? The article and you three people's interpretation is so wide-ranging and indiscriminate that there is no clear status.

so perhaps a test administered uniformly across all visa holders??) Nope. Doesn't wash. A regular work visa holder on his first day does not know if he is a long-term resident. More than 90% of foreigners in Japan go home in 3 years.

and again as part of the Residency Approval examination ?? --> ! Not to worry if it doesn't ring a bell term, this is I think either made up by the writer or MOJ/MOFA.Made up? Wonderful journalism if by the press, and even more B.S. if made up by the MOJ. Why are you people still insisting that even the Japanese translation has merit now?

在留期間の更新、資格変更時 (Long term residents would be tested again for "improvement" in Japanese skills at the time of visa renewal or changes in status ??).Oh, swell. Many work visas are only issued for one year. Even the official "long-term resident visa" can be issued for only 6 months. The B.S., ambiguities, and loopholes are piled so high you can see Mt. Fuji from them.

Let's stick a fork in this thread. It's done.

[pipokun]

...
The B.S., ambiguities, and loopholes are piled so high you can see Mt. Fuji from them.
...

What's wrong?
It is all ambiguous because they just started to consider necessity of the policies.

[Elizabeth]

Total B.S. or a horrible description by the MOJ and/or newspaper. (both of which I have already stated) It's B.S. because if you try to apply this description to all visa holders as you, epigene, orochi, etc. have suggested it means, then it's impossible to do. Simply put, nobody knows they are going to be a long-term resident upon their initial entry.
Yes, exactly. One possibility is that visa holders (excluding tourist, student etc). be routinely pre-tested and for those that don't end up appying for a long-term residency permit or getting a visa renewal -- whatever the status or criteria is set as -- no further follow-up examination is required. It isn't saying they are "long-term" at the time of entry. That would be absurd.

To me this sounds a lot fairer than a single pass/fail lose your job, take a pay cut, go home cut and dried standard for everyone...

Made up? Wonderful journalism if by the press, and even more B.S. if made up by the MOJ. Why are you people still insisting that even the Japanese translation has merit now?Long term residency permit review process/exam could be referring to the test or a new class of measures or something already in place I'm not familiar with.

And by the way, please don't shoot the messenger on your rampage. Don't like it, then learn...

[Glenski]

Sniff, sniff. Does anyone else smell smoke here? This thread is not just done. It's overcooked. Five pages and most of it is just repetitious hypotheticals. Guess all you want, folks. The MOJ is not reading this thread to solicit opinions.

[Goldiegirl]

So if i have to move to Japan, because of my husbands job, I may HAVE to learn Japanese to stay? I am confused. I don't have to work in Japan, and I certainly will never drive there, so other than speaking to family and friends, why do I need to know Japanese? My husband is my translator. I want to learn mind you, but I don't think forcing it is acceptable, nor do I think it is necessary to live in a country and speak the language. It sure makes life easier, but if you aren't asking for special care or rules or exceptions because of your lack of language skill, what's the big deal?

[ArmandV]

Landing examinations would be impractical to administer. What would they do, take people with work or other visas (like cattle) into a separate room at Narita Airport to give them a test? Ludicrous!

[Elizabeth]

Landing examinations would be impractical to administer. What would they do, take people with work or other visas (like cattle) into a separate room at Narita Airport to give them a test? Ludicrous!
Most likely this procedure would end up being self-reported proficiency on the visa form, presumably with most applicants coming in zero or very little. Only when a certain skill level was reported would documentation or airport testing be required. :-)

[ArmandV]

Most likely this procedure would end up being self-reported proficiency on the visa form, presumably with most applicants coming in zero or very little. Only when a certain skill level was reported would documentation or airport testing be required. :-)

If that's what the goverment has in mind (purely speculative at this point), then it wouldn't be very difficult to cheat. Just have a translator or book handy.

[Elizabeth]

If that's what the goverment has in mind (purely speculative at this point), then it wouldn't be very difficult to cheat. Just have a translator or book handy.
No doubt like other work-related requirements either supply backup references (I'm talking about other proficiency test scores, Japanese classes, degrees etc). or a test should be mandatory for anyone claiming at a specified level.

[Glenski]

So if i have to move to Japan, because of my husbands job, I may HAVE to learn Japanese to stay? I am confused. I don't have to work in Japan, and I certainly will never drive there, so other than speaking to family and friends, why do I need to know Japanese?As Elizabeth has pointed out, to avoid being a burden on society. Friends and family aren't the only people you deal with in life.

Phone calls from just about anyone.
Setting up or calling to troubleshoot your phone & Internet.
Any store clerk.
Bank.
Library.
Local transportation services.
Post office.
Hospital/dentist.
Travel service.
Hotel/onsen reservations.

You don't plan to live in a hermetically sealed box, do you? I certainly hope you don't plan to have your husband do it all.

My husband is my translator.He isn't going to be with you 24/7, is he?

I want to learn mind you, but I don't think forcing it is acceptable, nor do I think it is necessary to live in a country and speak the language.Doesn't your husband speak English in the USA? How does he feel about you not using any Japanese in Japan?

if you aren't asking for special care or rules or exceptions because of your lack of language skill, What are you talking about?

Landing examinations would be impractical to administer. What would they do, take people with work or other visas (like cattle) into a separate room at Narita Airport to give them a test? Ludicrous!Yes, agreed, ludicrous, especially if one has a connecting flight to catch.

As for reporting when you arrive, shades of the fingerprinting policy! How often will one have to do that, too?! Or will this be imprinted on one's alien card? (Didja see the new article on that?)

See? This whole article has set off a series of unanswerable questions, rife with nothing more than speculation and grief.

[Goldiegirl]

I get along just fine without Japanese in Japan. My husband doesn't care if I ever learn a lick of Japanese, the reason I don't put that much effort into my studies. If I am not asking the Japanese to offer me anything because I don't speak their language...like special forms or the like, what's the big deal? I am not asking for anything special or exceptional. My husband although can speak English uses me for his talking..I deal with the bank, insurance, bills, etc. It's just the reverse in Japan. In Japan my husband handles the details...that's fine by me. I don't have to do those things and am happy to not to them. Just as I don't have to work there either. I can go to the store and buy groceries, get a cab, go to the park for a walk, all without learning the language...

[Elizabeth]

As for reporting when you arrive, shades of the fingerprinting policy! How often will one have to do that, too?!
Reporting language ability ? Not when you arrive. On the visa application form.


I can go to the store and buy groceries, get a cab, go to the park for a walk, all without learning the language...
If you plan to spend your days taking cabs to a park, showing the driver an address written by your husband, and buying groceries on the way home...well it's an incredibly wasted opportunity in my mind, but obviously if no one else is being negatively impacted, still ultimately your life and decision. :)

[ArmandV]

As Elizabeth has pointed out, to avoid being a burden on society.


"Burden of society?!" If that were the case, then there'd be a public uproar from the Japanese people against these English language schools importing teachers who know little or no Japanese, most of which stress that knowing Japanese is not necessary.

That's really a phoney argument.

As for reporting when you arrive, shades of the fingerprinting policy! How often will one have to do that, too?! Or will this be imprinted on one's alien card? (Didja see the new article on that?)

No. Do you have the link to it? Thanks.

[Glenski]

ArmandV,
Here is the link you requested.
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=551158#post551158

Oh, and as for that public uproar from Japanese, don't expect it. Gaman.

Elizabeth,
Doesn't matter (to me) if it is a visa application or your physical entry. It's the same problem we've been discussing for several pages now.

[ArmandV]

ArmandV,
Here is the link you requested.
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=551158#post551158
Oh, and as for that public uproar from Japanese, don't expect it. Gaman.


Thanks.

On the uproar, if there were to be an uproar, it would've already happened (Japanese complaining of non-Japanese-speaking foreigners). And there won't be one. Why do so many Japanese jump at chances to try out their English?

[Elizabeth]

Thanks.
On the uproar, if there were to be an uproar, it would've already happened (Japanese complaining of non-Japanese-speaking foreigners). And there won't be one. Why do so many Japanese jump at chances to try out their English?
Believe me, once they realize you can speak normal Japanese with decent fluency, the English stops.

Secondly, the demographic trends will require a steadily increase in foreign workers, at least one likely reason for this campaign in my opinion. Lastly the people are not given to public complaining. Which doesn't mean they like it or it isn't an embarrassement, hassle, headache etc for all involved.

It's well...like what we've been saying for 6 pages and counting...:blush:

[Glenski]

Believe me, once they realize you can speak normal Japanese with decent fluency, the English stops. Not always. I have many conversations with Japanese people, where I use Japanese and they use English.

And, another thing may happen, too. Show you have enough command of Japanese, and the locals may tend to clam up around you because they realize you can understand what they are saying. Maybe some of them are talking about you.

If you plan to spend your days taking cabs to a park, showing the driver an address written by your husband, and buying groceries on the way home...well it's an incredibly wasted opportunity in my mind, but obviously if no one else is being negatively impacted, still ultimately your life and decision. :)
You surprise me with this brushing off of Goldiegirl's statements on not needing to learn Japanese, nor wanting to, especially after the lambasting you gave earlier about freeloaders. Why the change of heart?

[Glenski]

I get along just fine without Japanese in Japan.According to your profile, you have only been in Japan for less than a year. Would you mind if I asked in what capacity? It seems so short to make such a sweeping statement.

My husband doesn't care if I ever learn a lick of Japanese, the reason I don't put that much effort into my studies.He says that now, but you two live in Wisconsin. He may change his tune seriously if you live in Japan, where he would have to do everything for you, plus hold down a job to support you. It's not easy (and sometimes not even possible) to do certain things when you are working.

If I am not asking the Japanese to offer me anything because I don't speak their language...like special forms or the like, what's the big deal?Yes, you are! With practically zero Japanese ability, you are going to be forcing Japanese to try to understand you in a foreign language. I've already listed some of the situations.

I don't have to work there either. I can go to the store and buy groceries, get a cab, go to the park for a walk, all without learning the language...Oh, so you can find stores that have all labels in English? Or in every incidence explain to taxi drivers with English or with handwritten notes? I don't think so. What are you going to do all day long while your husband works -- sit and watch rental videos in English (videos that he has had to pick up for you because you don't know enough Japanese)? I really think you are in for an awakening if you ever come here and live. It may not hit right away, but it will hit.

[FrustratedDave]

Why is it English speaking nations expect people to speak English when in our own countries, but expect people to provide English signs or be able to speak English in other countries not our own?

[Taiko666]

Why is it English speaking nations expect people to speak English when in our own countries, but expect people to provide English signs or be able to speak English in other countries not our own?

Oh no... not that one again.

Why is it English speaking nations expect people to speak English when in our own countries

I don't know anybody who thinks this. But it's true, in the UK I do speak to strangers initially only in English. That's better than just grunting or waving my arms about, which is how the Japanese often address me in Japan.


but expect people to provide English signs or be able to speak English in other countries not our own?

Exactly who expects this? Not even on this thread has such a sentiment been expressed.

[Elizabeth]

Not always. I have many conversations with Japanese people, where I use Japanese and they use English.
And, another thing may happen, too. Show you have enough command of Japanese, and the locals may tend to clam up around you because they realize you can understand what they are saying. Maybe some of them are talking about you.
Keep going with your Japanese way and when it is good enough most people will respond back in kind. I usually take along a book or newspaper which helps, too. The stares of amazement are too great for words of idle curiousity...:bluush:


You surprise me with this brushing off of Goldiegirl's statements on not needing to learn Japanese, nor wanting to, especially after the lambasting you gave earlier about freeloaders. Why the change of heart?For what, buying groceries and taking a cab...?? Heavens no ! A couple phrases maybe but aside from pulling stuff off the shelf that a spouse can eat...Learning a language for that alone would be absurd.

[Glenski]

Elizabeth,
You know darned well that life here revolves around more than just picking a can of cut tomatoes off the supermarket shelf. That was a cheap dodge of a reply. Thanks for nothing. You harass English teachers a lot here by telling them they should learn the language for daily survival, then when Goldiegirl comes on and saysher husband will be the breadwinner and that she refuses to learn it, you take her side. Inquiring minds want to know.

[Elizabeth]

Elizabeth,
You know darned well that life here revolves around more than just picking a can of cut tomatoes off the supermarket shelf. That was a cheap dodge of a reply. Thanks for nothing. You harass English teachers a lot here by telling them they should learn the language for daily survival, then when Goldiegirl comes on and saysher husband will be the breadwinner and that she refuses to learn it, you take her side. Inquiring minds want to know.
I'm absolutely not trying to take sides, have zero motive or intent to dodge questions, and no poster has yet introduced the issue of what language is spoken at home.

Anyone that plans or needs to be out and about as a foreigner, working and interacting with Japanese people on a daily basis to me is a completely different story than doing two things which require little or no dialogue -- that is buying groceries and taking a cab to the park. Whether her activities will be limited to this I have no idea. But lifestyles are a tricky business and a bare minimum of interaction is possible.

Sorry if my advice came out wrong. Opinions will differ. But seriously that is all I meant to convey.

[Half-n-Half]

http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=1158

Goldiegirl, based on this video I see nothing wrong in using your husband as a translator while you live, work, and play in Japan. Hell, if this girl could do it, you can too! Maybe you'll be put on a Japanese show just like her.

[Glenski]

Well, Elizabeth, based on your whole 3 months to a year of living experience in Japan (something you still have refused to describe, so I can guess anything I want), you ought to know that what Goldiegirl described is not the extent of living. Taking a cab could easily require giving directions in Japanese. Buying groceries could require it, too. And, if you or anyone else believes that these two activities are all that one will do in life here or elsewhere, you are seriously mistaken. Wake up.

Here are a few snippets from your previous posts on this thread. I'm using them to define what you meant, since you seem to be backpedaling now.

getting up to speed on basic level conversation/writing skills

What is more realistic and what I was basing my judgment on was a familiarity with basic (phrase-book level) conversation/writing (maybe 100 or so common kanji) skills.

Making a good faith effort for long term residents to be as inoffensive and well accepted by the community as possible is I'm sure what these preliminary examinations from the government are attempting to correct. I am referring to the ones I think we've all encountered that don't apologize for bothering whoever they are about to barge into, ask in Japanese if the person speaks English and proceed to chat away like it is their God given right to be perfectly understood. Bad enough in tourists. Completely unacceptable for everyone else.

I like this one best.
whether it has any practical effect at all is completely irrelevant to the good manners and basic decency that foreigners SHOULD show towards their host country by attempting to actively learn the language.

So, basically, anyone that isn't prepared to fully adjust to a foreign country has no business living there in my opinion.

This one seems to fit Goldiegirl to a T.
Just remember to thank and heartily appreciate the natives that are willing to put forth what can be a tremendous effort on their part to do your English for you. Cause no one has ANY obligation whatsoever to rescue a foreigner that isn't even trying.

As does this one, with the intensity of expression suggested by "damn".
Buy a damn phrase book, spend half and hour a night on each chapter, plus 5 kanji, practice the sentences on a friend or spouse

Then after all that, Goldiegirl makes her posts, snubs the whole learning of Japanese, and you wrote:
If you plan to spend your days taking cabs to a park, showing the driver an address written by your husband, and buying groceries on the way home...well it's an incredibly wasted opportunity in my mind, but obviously if no one else is being negatively impacted, still ultimately your life and decision.Do you really think that what you wrote previously jibes with this statement? I don't. You are adamant about people learning it, and then you brush aside Ggirl with a little wave of your hand. How you can honestly imagine that people canNOT be "negatively impacted" even on such basic levels as these is beyond me.

Lastly you just wrote:
Anyone that plans or needs to be out and about as a foreigner, working and interacting with Japanese people on a daily basis to me is a completely different story than doing two things which require little or no dialogue C'mon. Who actually has such little dialogue? Unrealistic. Ggirl may say she is not planning to work, but who knows if that will change? Even if it doesn't, smell the coffee. Nobody lives in a hermetically sealed jar. Interaction is required, and even at the small levels you and she seem to feel are unimportant for Japanese to be used, I say you are wrong. Regardless of how I feel on that one point, look at the complete turnaround you just made. Perhaps we misunderstood you somehow...?

[orochi]

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20080129a2.html
More details out:
Conditions for resident visa status of skilled foreign workers such as engineers may be relaxed if they attain a certain level of proficiency in Japanese, government sources said Monday.
The measures, including shortening the required number of years of work experience required, are being considered both to increase the variety of foreign workers being accepted in Japan and to encourage more foreigners to study Japanese, the sources said.
The relaxed conditions would be applicable to foreigners who want to enter Japan for specialist or technical jobs, they said.
Resident visa status for foreigners staying and working in Japan for a long time is classified under the immigration law by type of job ― with exceptions such as spouses or descendants of Japanese nationals, who are not restricted in working in Japan.
Engineers, for example, are permitted to enter Japan to work in technical fields if they have graduated from a university in that subject or have work experience of at least 10 years.
The Foreign Ministry and Justice Ministry are considering shortening the number of years of work experience required to about five from 10, according to the sources.
They are also considering using the annual Japanese Language Proficiency Test to gauge applicants' Japanese ability, the sources said.
In fiscal 2006, about 440,000 people in Japan and 46 countries and territories took the test offered by Japan Education Exchanges and Services, which estimates that 2.98 million people study Japanese abroad.
There is concern that relaxing conditions could lead to a decrease in the quality of workers, but if they have proficiency in Japanese they would be able to learn the relevant skills in Japan, the sources said.
Japan decided in 1999 to begin actively accepting skilled foreign workers while keeping its restrictions on unskilled workers.
On Jan. 15, Foreign Minister Masahiko Komura unveiled a plan to consider Japanese proficiency one of the conditions for foreigners to stay in Japan.

[Elizabeth]

This one seems to fit Goldiegirl to a T.
OK, you got me there. To be honest I hadn't considered the possibility that fear of the language could produce such an extreme withdrawal syndrome when I wrote that...*Major edit* :=)

So, basically, anyone that isn't prepared to fully adjust to a foreign country has no business living there if that requires trying to speak to natives outside of ones family, particularly clerks and other service workers, in my opinion.



C'mon. Who actually has such little dialogue? Unrealistic. Ggirl may say she is not planning to work, but who knows if that will change? Even if it doesn't, smell the coffee. Nobody lives in a hermetically sealed jar. Interaction is required, and even at the small levels you and she seem to feel are unimportant for Japanese to be used, I say you are wrong. Regardless of how I feel on that one point, look at the complete turnaround you just made. Perhaps we misunderstood you somehow...?
I said a few phrases for the cabbie and perhaps kanji at the grocery. To be sure it isn't a well grounded, engaged, open healthy approach to the situation by any standard, but if the desire isn't there and they aren't bothering anyone by not then I don't have a particular interest in harping on Goldiegirl any further. :p Perhaps even creating increased resentment or resistence. The time comes for work or greater interaction, great, then get busy with it when you have to...

[Glenski]

So, basically, anyone that isn't prepared to fully adjust to a foreign country has no business living there if that requires trying to speak to natives outside of ones family, particularly clerks and other service workers, in my opinion. Thank you for that clarification, Elizabeth. However, you also just wrote...

and they aren't bothering anyone

Please explain this. I am not stabbing a finger at you mercilessly. I am sincerely trying to understand how you feel, because these two statements seem totally opposed to each other.

Also, you wrote...I said a few phrases for the cabbie and perhaps kanji at the grocery.Ok, now the pointer turns to Goldiegirl, who wrote that...

I get along just fine without Japanese in Japan. [Mind you, this comes from someone who, like Elizabeth, claims to have spent no more than 3 months to a year in Japan. Not a heckuva lot of experience to back up such a statement, IMHO.]

Comments by either of you? I'm not trying to instigate a fight here. I just honestly cannot understand what the heck you mean.

[Dutch Baka]

Well I don't see anything wrong with this, on the contrary I think it's a very good idea:

Japanese fluency could ease visa conditions

Conditions for resident visa status of skilled foreign workers such as engineers may be relaxed if they attain a certain level of proficiency in Japanese, government sources said Monday.

The measures, including shortening the required number of years of work experience required, are being considered both to increase the variety of foreign workers being accepted in Japan and to encourage more foreigners to study Japanese, the sources said...

...The Foreign Ministry and Justice Ministry are considering shortening the number of years of work experience required to about five from 10, according to the sources...

...There is concern that relaxing conditions could lead to a decrease in the quality of workers, but if they have proficiency in Japanese they would be able to learn the relevant skills in Japan, the sources said...

Read the whole article (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20080129a2.html)

[Glenski]

Interesting article. Following hot on the footsteps of the other one, this time with all anonymous ministry sources. Not comforting.

For now, let's just examine what is needed for an engineer's work visa. This is a copy/paste from the MOFA web site. Colored emphasis is mine.

The applicant must have graduated from or completed a college or acquired equivalent education majoring in the subject relevant to the skills and/or knowledge necessary for performing the job concerned, or the applicant must have at least 10 years' experience (including the period of time spent studying the relevant skills and knowledge at college
I just wonder how many engineers currently working here do not have the necessary degree and had to rely solely on their years of experience instead? In other words, just how many people does this hypothetical policy really affect?

And, once again, the article talks about a vague "resident visa status" (something associated in my mind with people who are already residents here, not people who are just applying for their first work visa), and then they explain this carrot as follows: "The relaxed conditions would be applicable to foreigners who want to enter Japan for specialist or technical jobs". Meaning, people who are not even here yet. So, you would actually NEED the experience and NEED the language ability to be able to compete, whereas presently a simple degree will do.

[centrajapan]

I am against! I never like the idea of forcing someone to do anything. If people are not motivated they will not learn if people are motivated people will learn. The classes should be up to the person to decide if they want to learn japanese or not.

The other reason why I am against it is because I speak Japanese and English. I feel I am in a strong position because of it. If more people are able to speak Japanese I get more competition which is NOT GOOD for me.

I dont think it is a big deal not being able to speak the lnaguage of the country you live in. It would help but it is not neccessary.

In Norway I am not sure if it is manditory or not. I dont think it is manditory. I am not sure to be honest. Most long time residents end up speaking Norwegian it seems like.

On local TV in Oslo there was a Norwegian langauge programme for Pakistanis. Its one of my favourite shows ever. Its so funny. There are 5 Pakistanis. One of them speaks fluent Norwegian and he is the teacher. Then ther are the other guys who are students. Some are more motivated than others. Some show no motivation at all for learning. And the teacher tells the student that they need to try and the student is like..naaa. having a why? attitude. This old Pakistani man who is almost 70 who has been living in Norway for ages yet does hardly speak the language or try to learn the langauge. Its not the ideal situation but thats OK too. In anycase.

They need such English shows in Japan too. The ones in Japan are weak.

[JimmySeal]

The other reason why I am against it is because I speak Japanese and English. I feel I am in a strong position because of it. If more people are able to speak Japanese I get more competition which is NOT GOOD for me.
Sounds pretty selfish. You want others to remain ignorant for your own benefit?

And is this what you call "able to speak Japanese?"
漢字頭いたい難しい
Surely, you must be joking.

[FrustratedDave]

Why is it English speaking nations expect people to speak English when in our own countries, but expect people to provide English signs or be able to speak English in other countries not our own?Oh no... not that one again.Why is it English speaking nations expect people to speak English when in our own countries
I don't know anybody who thinks this. But it's true, in the UK I do speak to strangers initially only in English. That's better than just grunting or waving my arms about, which is how the Japanese often address me in Japan. but expect people to provide English signs or be able to speak English in other countries not our own?
Exactly who expects this? Not even on this thread has such a sentiment been expressed.
HHmm... Do you live under a rock? How often in initial conversation do you see people in English speaking countries try to converse with someone in that persons language? How about never. Most Japanese will go out of there way to speak English to you b/c the majority of the gaijin here don't give a rats bottom about learning the language. And your comment about people grunting and waving arms is a dirrect result of foreigners not even attempting to learn the lauguage, so of corse most people are going to assume that your average gaijin will not be able to understand Japanese. Hense the problem that most of us face. And your assumptions just make a stronger case as to why people should have to speak Japanese when taking up residence here. I would have hoped that someone living here as long as you have could have realized the dim fact to why we are treated like we are.

You my friend seem very short sighted or is it ignorance?


And just b/c nobody has brought this up in the thread does not mean that it does not exist. Most English speaking people going on vacation in a foriegn country when entering a conversation with a local ,will inevitably speak English first and then if all fails will try to converse using a dictionary or give up completely. But when the situation is reversed most non English speaking people will attempt to converse in English (And just so I don't confuse you too much, I am talking about the majority here).

[Taiko666]

How often in initial conversation do you see people in English speaking countries try to converse with someone in that persons language?

OK, let's say that (in the UK) I've already heard a stranger speaking exclusively Japanese (for example.) Even though I can speak 'reasonable' Japanese, I would do that person the honour of demonstrating their superior language skills, rather than assuming they can't speak English. If it turned out that Japanese was the better option, then I'd switch to Japanese.

And if I really don't have any hard evidence about their native language, I have no choice but to communicate in natural English or condescending sign language. Which is better?

As for your point about it being 'our' own fault that we get grunted at in Japan; I'm sure you realise not all foreigners are English speakers, yet I'll think you'll find all nationalities experience the same problem in Japan.

I agree there are many ignorant native-English tourists. It just seems that none of my friends/family has been ignorant enough to assume that everyone abroad can speak English. So I think you generalize far too much, or rely on stereotypes in sitcoms.


Most English speaking people going on vacation in a foriegn country when entering a conversation with a local ,will inevitably speak English first

With a tour rep, tourist resort hotel clerk maybe. But with a shopkeeper in a village in France? Sorry, I'm afraid I think you're relying on stereotypes. (Notice I didn't accuse you of being ignorant, easily confused, short-sighted or living under a rock though.)

EDIT: I must hang out with an entirely different crowd in Japan than you do. Everyone non-J in my company is studying or can speak Japanese, and nobody seems to expect Japanese to speak English. And the ex-pats I've met in western Tokyo have been all but fluent. And even when I go to 'western' bars in Roppongi, Ebisu etc I've only met a few who've told me they know no Japanese at all.

[Glenski]

OK, let's say that (in the UK) I've already heard a stranger speaking exclusively Japanese (for example.) Special exception and not what is usually considered.

As for your point about it being 'our' own fault that we get grunted at in Japan; I'm sure you realise not all foreigners are English speakers, yet I'll think you'll find all nationalities experience the same problem in Japan.But how many times on average do Japanese stop to consider this? Rarely, IMO. Plenty (most?) think any non-Asian face belongs to an American unless they have some other indication, or unless they themselves have traveled abroad a bit.

[centrajapan]

Sounds pretty selfish. You want others to remain ignorant for your own benefit?

It is not selfish to have advantages over others in work and business. Everyone wants to have an advantage. Is it selfish to study harder to be better than anyone else? Ofcource not. You sound like a communist.

It is even more selfish to force some people to learn a language. It is not up to the government but to the individual.

And is this what you call "able to speak Japanese?"

日本語じゃないの？完璧じゃん？

[bakaKanadajin]

Meaning, people who are not even here yet. So, you would actually NEED the experience and NEED the language ability to be able to compete, whereas presently a simple degree will do.

Just to clarify are you seeing this in a positive or negative light? Clearly, needing some language ability and experience is a reasonable requirement on Japan's part.

Since degrees are increasingly difficult to obtain as competition increases, tuition increases, and the primary education starts to dwindle (especially in the US) I think it's pretty pro-active to start allowing foreigners with experience to work in Japan by rewarding their language efforts with a break on the number of years required.

As Dutch Baka said I think this is a good thing for everyone involved. "Welcome to our country, we've made it easier for you to work here. Please, would you be so kind as to learn our language in order to facilitate your stay?"

[JimmySeal]

It is not selfish to have advantages over others in work and business. Everyone wants to have an advantage. Is it selfish to study harder to be better than anyone else? Ofcource not. You sound like a communist.
It's selfish to want a government's policies to follow your own personal wants. Laws are for the good of the country, not just a small selection of people, and if a language requirement would be beneficial overall, it shouldn't matter that you're afraid of a bit of competition. And if you are afraid of competition, find another way to stay on top.

It is even more selfish to force some people to learn a language. It is not up to the government but to the individual.
I can't fathom where you came up with that idea.
Every government is justified in rationally deciding who can or can't immigrate to their country, and if Japan wants only residents who can speak Japanese passably, there are a lot of good reasons for such a policy.


日本語じゃないの？完璧じゃん？

「漢字頭いたい難しい」って、ちっとも「完璧」じゃないよ。

[Glenski]

Originally Posted by Glenski
Meaning, people who are not even here yet. So, you would actually NEED the experience and NEED the language ability to be able to compete, whereas presently a simple degree will do.

Just to clarify are you seeing this in a positive or negative light? Clearly, needing some language ability and experience is a reasonable requirement on Japan's part. My beef is not with a language requirement in itself. I am first trying to say that most of the articles so far have said nothing clear about who is affected and how the testing will be done. I would hope you agree that such issues are critical to the people involved (foreigners), and that not knowing yet having this thrown up haphazardly only makes matters more stressful. I mean, look how long this thread is without any clearcut answers.

Second, I believe the quote you made is slightly out of context. Here's the whole paragraph.
And, once again, the article talks about a vague "resident visa status" (something associated in my mind with people who are already residents here, not people who are just applying for their first work visa), and then they explain this carrot as follows: "The relaxed conditions would be applicable to foreigners who want to enter Japan for specialist or technical jobs". Meaning, people who are not even here yet. So, you would actually NEED the experience and NEED the language ability to be able to compete, whereas presently a simple degree will do. One point to make is that currently, people are allowed to get engineering visas (as one example of many) with no degree but only if they show 10 years of experience. Why 10? I don't know, and I suspect the MOJ can't clearly explain. Nonetheless, it's there. The proposed policy will let people in with half that experience. In itself, that's quite a relaxation in one's skill set, don't you think? Five years is barely getting one's feet wet in most careers, but with only that and some ill-defined language skill, you can now be seen as equally qualified to the current standards. Doesn't make sense to me.

Another point I've tried to make here is that the MOJ keeps throwing up the term "long term resident" here. You cannot be a long-term resident anywhere when you just move in, and that is exactly what situation most people will be in. A newbie. So, how is it that the MOJ can boast that this policy is for long-term residents and in the same breath talk about entry requirements? Again, this is contradictory.

Since degrees are increasingly difficult to obtain as competition increasesWhat do you mean by this? Do you have a source to support that? I'm curious about the word difficult. Have fewer engineers, say, been graduating because of some kind of competition somewhere? I've seen quite a few IT engineers' resumes and heard quite a few of their stories about not having jobs so they switch to TEFL, but none have said anything about competition for the degrees themselves.

I think it's pretty pro-active to start allowing foreigners with experience to work in Japan by rewarding their language efforts with a break on the number of years required. Oh, I see this POV, too, but I don't think you see my points. Please let me know if you do.
Vagueness.
Premature announcements.
Contradictory statements.

As Dutch Baka said I think this is a good thing for everyone involved. "Welcome to our country, we've made it easier for you to work here. Please, would you be so kind as to learn our language in order to facilitate your stay?"[/QUOTE]Actually, they haven't made it easier if you look at it in some respects. Aside from the 5 years not needed for experience to wangle you a work visa (and please remember what I wrote about the few people who actually take this route anyway!), there are these points:

1) Learning a language like Japanese is not a piece of cake. In order to get up to speed on some basic conversation and perhaps reading proficiency will take at least a year. For some people, their work schedules and family life may stretch this. For those who don't learn languages easily, even more.

2) So, if you have 5 years of experience now, you will still have a few years to go before you can even make a stab at the language test. Will that study time cut into your experience gained?

3) If you don't yet have the 5 years, you will have to deal with earning those five and studying a language, too. Could be tougher, not "easier".

4) I can't stress strongly enough the point above about how many degreed people vs. non-degreed actually manage to find work here. It would behoove the MOJ to throw out a few figures along those lines as justification. Otherwise, logic dictates that the degreed people are more suited to the jobs in general.

[bakaKanadajin]

My beef is not with a language requirement in itself. I am first trying to say that most of the articles so far have said nothing clear about who is affected and how the testing will be done. I would hope you agree that such issues are critical to the people involved (foreigners), and that not knowing yet having this thrown up haphazardly only makes matters more stressful. I mean, look how long this thread is without any clearcut answers.

Fair enough, but I just don't think the vagueness is as engineered or nefarious as some believe it is.

Second, I believe the quote you made is slightly out of context.
One point to make is that currently, people are allowed to get engineering visas (as one example of many) with no degree but only if they show 10 years of experience. Why 10? I don't know, and I suspect the MOJ can't clearly explain. Nonetheless, it's there. The proposed policy will let people in with half that experience. In itself, that's quite a relaxation in one's skill set, don't you think? Five years is barely getting one's feet wet in most careers, but with only that and some ill-defined language skill, you can now be seen as equally qualified to the current standards. Doesn't make sense to me.


If you really pressed them I'm sure the MOFA would point to some international standard or come up with a good reason why its 10 years. It doesn't really matter, that's the standard. And that's with NO language skills and no formal training. So really all they're saying is you have to be a damn good self-taught engineer to get work in Japan alongside Japanese residents who have worked hard to obtain the same job status. That makes sense to me, it is Japan afterall and the Japanese need jobs first and have to be able to rely on their domestic education system as a provider of valuable experience and accessibility to jobs.

Now, with this change, if you have some Japanese language skills you get a break. This is, I think, aimed at increasing the ability for engineers (or other professionals who'll be included here) to integrate. They start lower down the chain with that experience, perhaps, but by the time they are at 10 years they're even better suited to work in Japan than the ones who didn't know any Japanese. And all this is still without a degree.

Another point I've tried to make here is that the MOJ keeps throwing up the term "long term resident" here. You cannot be a long-term resident anywhere when you just move in, and that is exactly what situation most people will be in. A newbie. So, how is it that the MOJ can boast that this policy is for long-term residents and in the same breath talk about entry requirements? Again, this is contradictory.

I think they're trying to envision a system that applies to those entering whose intention it is to become a long term resident. I see your point and you're right, the ideas are contradictory, but the chances that they're pulling some kind of weird 'know Japanese before you come here or else' stuff is unlikely as it would harm more than hurt. As you say, we need more info.

What do you mean by this? Do you have a source to support that? I'm curious about the word difficult. Have fewer engineers, say, been graduating because of some kind of competition somewhere? I've seen quite a few IT engineers' resumes and heard quite a few of their stories about not having jobs so they switch to TEFL, but none have said anything about competition for the degrees themselves.

Oh, I see this POV, too, but I don't think you see my points. Please let me know if you do.
Vagueness.
Premature announcements.
Contradictory statements.

Well I just mean degrees are becoming more exclusive worldwide. As I mentioned previously, tuition goes up, primary education standards go down; it's just becoming difficult on many fronts for people to put their kids through college or for those kids who have the money to score well on their entry exams and get into their college or program of choice. So my point in saying Japan is being pro-active was linked to the idea that there may be fewer people with degrees and more people with just skilled trades or simple work experience showing up.


1) Learning a language like Japanese is not a piece of cake. In order to get up to speed on some basic conversation and perhaps reading proficiency will take at least a year. For some people, their work schedules and family life may stretch this. For those who don't learn languages easily, even more.

2) So, if you have 5 years of experience now, you will still have a few years to go before you can even make a stab at the language test. Will that study time cut into your experience gained?

3) If you don't yet have the 5 years, you will have to deal with earning those five and studying a language, too. Could be tougher, not "easier".


They'd obviously have to make allowances for this. Japanese companies willingly subsidize English lessons so the same companies would naturally subsidize Japanese lessons for the few foreign employees they had. Further to this point, they're already immersed, I think within 1 year you could learn quite a bit. As for those seeking work, whether you spend 5 years working as an engineer and learning Japanese, or 10 years just doing engineering, you're working hard. Your implied expectation that relocating to a foreign country, learning the language and obtaining well-paying work should somehow be easy is kind of unrealistic.

It's the same kind of unrealistic expectations some (SOME!) foreigners have when they show up on Canada's doorstep. A certain level of effort must be made if one truly wants to work/live in abroad long term, and I think these are the individuals Japan wishes to entice, not just people who wanna check it out for a bit and meh, don't really want to work hard at it.

4) I can't stress strongly enough the point above about how many degreed people vs. non-degreed actually manage to find work here. It would behoove the MOJ to throw out a few figures along those lines as justification. Otherwise, logic dictates that the degreed people are more suited to the jobs in general.

You're right, they are more suited, the others are less suited. Again, regardless of the numbers being well-researched or arbitrary, they just made it easier for some people to go work in Japan by slashing the requirement in half. Perhaps some already know Japanese and this just opened up a huge door for them. Let's just say 'the glass is at 50%' until we know more.

[FrustratedDave]

OK, let's say that (in the UK) I've already heard a stranger speaking exclusively Japanese (for example.) Even though I can speak 'reasonable' Japanese, I would do that person the honour of demonstrating their superior language skills, rather than assuming they can't speak English. If it turned out that Japanese was the better option, then I'd switch to Japanese.And if I really don't have any hard evidence about their native language, I have no choice but to communicate in natural English or condescending sign language. Which is better?
That is the mentality I am talking about, we (English speaking countries ) assume that because English is the language that is relied upon in the world stage that most people will be able to speak it regardless of their background. Like I said before, Japan is not an English speaking country and the majority of foreigners DO NOT speak Japanese to at least carry out a basic conversation. And let me pose a question to you, what percentage of people in English speaking countries can speak another language? Now ask yourself what percentage of non English speaking countries can speak English? Of corse the percentage is much,much higher in non English speaking countries.

As for your point about it being 'our' own fault that we get grunted at in Japan; I'm sure you realise not all foreigners are English speakers, yet I'll think you'll find all nationalities experience the same problem in Japan.
I agree there are many ignorant native-English tourists. It just seems that none of my friends/family has been ignorant enough to assume that everyone abroad can speak English. So I think you generalize far too much, or rely on stereotypes in sitcoms.
With a tour rep, tourist resort hotel clerk maybe. But with a shopkeeper in a village in France? Sorry, I'm afraid I think you're relying on stereotypes. (Notice I didn't accuse you of being ignorant, easily confused, short-sighted or living under a rock though.)
Like I said before, I talk about the majority and the fact of the matter is that the majority of foreigners that are European or african in appearance are from English speaking countries, which brings me back to my first parragraph that because English is now considered the language of the world it is then assumed that if all else fails the common ground is that two foreign people can converse in English( Again this is generally the case ). And BTW you speak of your friends not being like this, but how can you judge what the rest of the world of millions/billions is thinking from that small group of people in your imediate pressence? Again don't you think this is not thinking realisticaly?
EDIT: I must hang out with an entirely different crowd in Japan than you do. Everyone non-J in my company is studying or can speak Japanese, and nobody seems to expect Japanese to speak English. And the ex-pats I've met in western Tokyo have been all but fluent. And even when I go to 'western' bars in Roppongi, Ebisu etc I've only met a few who've told me they know no Japanese at all. I won't say every foreign person I have met, but the majority that say they can speak Japanese fluently would have trouble conversing with a 4 year old. The problem is that people judge there own or others Japanese abililty on what they perceive to be competent, when the reality is they are in fact seen as someone who can not speak very well at all and be difficult to understand. This is especially the case when the person themself is not fluent in Japanese. But even if you and your friends are competent it still does not give the correct reprsentation of the fact that most "oubeijin, 欧米人" come and go without learning Japanese, again you speak of a minority ,which as I said before is not a correct assumption on the reality of the situation.

[Glenski]

Fair enough, but I just don't think the vagueness is as engineered or nefarious as some believe it is. You're probably right. Stupidity is also involved, as is a dinosaur-like mentality.

If you really pressed them I'm sure the MOFA would point to some international standard or come up with a good reason why its 10 years. It doesn't really matter, that's the standard. And that's with NO language skills and no formal training. So really all they're saying is you have to be a damn good self-taught engineer to get work in JapanQuality is not a qualification. Just the length of time you put into it.

Now, with this change, if you have some Japanese language skills you get a break. This is, I think, aimed at increasing the ability for engineers (or other professionals who'll be included here) to integrate.Please stop and ask yourself, as I have been trying, just how many of these people get in vs. the degreed ones? Until either of us see some data, I'm going to assume it's like teachers: most have degrees.

I think they're trying to envision a system that applies to those entering whose intention it is to become a long term resident. Speculation. No offense. Personally, I'd like to see their "vision" in writing.

I see your point and you're right, the ideas are contradictory, but the chances that they're pulling some kind of weird 'know Japanese before you come here or else' stuff is unlikely as it would harm more than hurt. The MOJ is not known for its fair treatment of foreigners, nor intelligence. I'm not holding my breath on this one.


So my point in saying Japan is being pro-active was linked to the idea that there may be fewer people with degrees and more people with just skilled trades or simple work experience showing up."May". Again, just speculation. Do you have any support for the number of degrees going down?


They'd obviously have to make allowances for this. Japanese companies willingly subsidize English lessons so the same companies would naturally subsidize Japanese lessons for the few foreign employees they had.Companies may indeed do this a lot. This is not the case in most teaching positions, and in fact to this point, Japanese is not permitted in the classroom in most cases anyway. Hence, no real perceived need. Plus, what employers may "have to do" isn't always what they end up doing.

Further to this point, they're already immersed, I think within 1 year you could learn quite a bit.Have you tried it under conditions here?

Your implied expectation that relocating to a foreign country, learning the language and obtaining well-paying work should somehow be easy is kind of unrealistic. Where did I imply that?

You're right, they are more suited, the others are less suited. Again, regardless of the numbers being well-researched or arbitrary, they just made it easier for some people to go work in Japan by slashing the requirement in half. Perhaps some already know Japanese and this just opened up a huge door for them. Let's just say 'the glass is at 50%' until we know more.Half full or half empty? :) Too many maybes and perhaps.

[pipokun]

Sushi chefs need IELTS 5.5 or better in the UK now...
In a way, the French system is fairer in which the government orders you to study French there.

It is difficult to tell what the J system will be like right now, but if the system is something like... your visa would be issued more quickly after you get JLPT 1 kyu or 2 kyu, it will be easy to find a bit strange persons who cannot understand any Japanese at the immigration.
I know JLPT is the typical Japanese test without any speaking or writing tests, so first the government should conduct the test like IELTS. (No need to be as expensive as it, though)

[bakaKanadajin]

Have you tried it under conditions here?


Did it last year. My spoken language skills were and still are very rudimentary; although my listening isn't bad and I know OF much grammar I cannot effectively use all of it in in speech yet. My literacy isn't too bad though although writing and physical penning of kanji is tough, I understand even some Japanese struggle with it, but thats another story.

Check my blog, it's rough but its the culmination of my literacy after a year and a half of studying.

Anyway, point is, I worked full time, also trained at a local boxing gym consistently, drank myself silly (when in Rome) and still had tmie to go to my class once a week and study. It was a free-of-charge class at the local ward center run by volunteers, really nice people but probably not as intense as something company sponsored or paid for.

With a little effort I went from having zero language to having at least something within the span of a year and a bit. This is not meant to be a badge of honour, it's just what's possible with a little application and I mention it only as it pertains to the current discussion.

Where did I imply that?

It's something that seems implied by the fact that you're arguing against this whole thing. For the moment I think we both reasonably agree, however we look at the glass, that information is thin. Yet you remain noticeably critical, I get the impression that the language requirement issue is unreasonable in your eyes no matter what form it takes. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just going by the aftertaste of your posts.

[Glenski]

Did it last year. My spoken language skills were and still are very rudimentary; although my listening isn't bad and I know OF much grammar I cannot effectively use all of it in in speech yet. My literacy isn't too bad though although writing and physical penning of kanji is tough, I understand even some Japanese struggle with it, but thats another story.Just reading this, I don't know just what your level is, so it is difficult to comment on it. Thanks for the description, though.

Check my blog, it's rough but its the culmination of my literacy after a year and a half of studying.Where is the blog?

and still had tmie to go to my class once a week and study. It was a free-of-charge class at the local ward center run by volunteers, really nice people but probably not as intense as something company sponsored or paid for.Well, I've tried a couple of those in 2 cities. Total unadulterated crap in both cases.

With a little effort I went from having zero language to having at least something within the span of a year and a bit. "Something" is what any sensible person would expect, and I'm not belittling what you have accomplished, just saying that again this is fairly undefined. Keep up the studies, though! I know how hard it is.

For the moment I think we both reasonably agree, however we look at the glass, that information is thin. Yet you remain noticeably critical, I get the impression that the language requirement issue is unreasonable in your eyes no matter what form it takes. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just going by the aftertaste of your posts.Ok, I'll have to correct you. I'm not going to look back on the pages here, and I've also posted my feelings on other threads here and elsewhere, so I don't know if I've made myself clear. Language requirements are good. Just what those requirements are, I can't say. I got in without any and am thankful, but I'm not stupid or naive enough to say that things should remain that way. I'm only saying 2 things:

1) What you confirmed above, that the MOJ has not said enough and has not said what they have CLEARLY enough to understand what is going to happen (or what they intend to happen).

2) this whole issue is complicated. You have English teachers (and other language teachers for that matter) who are usually told not to use Japanese in the classrooms, and this ends up finding its way to staff rooms as well when they chat with Japanese teachers of the same foreign language. Other professions seem to have a much nicer support network, yet the requirements for language proficiency seem to come only from the employers. This last point becomes an issue in my mind when you have the government stepping in. Who requires what? Moreover, there are the issues of people who are refugees, on intracompany transfer visas, SOFA status, and a few other statuses that really aren't in the same boat as John Smith with a work visa. It is because of this complexity alone that I reiterate, "Shame on you, MOJ, for making such a premature and poorly described news bulletin!"

[bakaKanadajin]

Above my user rating bars there's a thing that says 'Blog Entries: 6'. If you click on the little 6, which is how many I've created at the time of this post, it'll take you to my blog.

So if I understand this correctly, you're simply upset at the fact that the MOJ put the bulletin out without having clearly defined objectives? I can agree with you on that, the government of Canada and pretty much any bureaucratic body for that matter is extremely vague in what they say, usually on purpose. I think I mentioned that in a previous post. I don't know that I'd get as fired up about it however, since there is no smoking gun yet that would indicate any harm done to the status of foreigners.

Within the vagueness, it's the direction of the policy (as perceived by you) that must be the thing creating the controversy. What direction do you really see this going in? Because as I've mentioned, I just see this as basically ensuring no one lives in Japan for too long without integrating at a basic level language-wise and I find that reasonable. I don't smell a doomsday scenario looming for foreigners entering Japan, not on this front anyhow.

[Glenski]

Above my user rating bars there's a thing that says 'Blog Entries: 6'. If you click on the little 6, which is how many I've created at the time of this post, it'll take you to my blog.Thanks. Have no time at present, but will look into it.

So if I understand this correctly, you're simply upset at the fact that the MOJ put the bulletin out without having clearly defined objectives?I wouldn't denigrate the feeling with the word "simply". Yes, having a p!ss-poor news item irritates me.
1) Not enough information to know what is going to happen. This creates uncertainty and stress in an already uncertain and stressful world.

2) Cr@ppy news reporting, where you get less information in the English version compared to the Japanese version. In this case I find it painfully ironic, because if the news itself is meant to inform people who don't speak or read enough Japanese now, how are they supposed to be fully informed if all the information is written ONLY in Japanese? Catch-22.

3) Upset? Yup. The MOJ has a very poor history of dealings with foreigners, so even with the little info they had printed, I can foresee serious consequences if things go a certain way. That "if" is not as uncertain as one might imagine.

I don't know that I'd get as fired up about it however, since there is no smoking gun yet that would indicate any harm done to the status of foreigners. I am trying to remain calm, but what gets me even as much as the above is, people who post on forums with little or no idea what is happening here, people who pooh-pooh it all with no clear logical reason, and people who say "if you don't like it, leave".

Within the vagueness, it's the direction of the policy (as perceived by you) that must be the thing creating the controversy. What direction do you really see this going in?Hard to say. Why did the new fingerprinting policy start despite a huge battle lasting more than a decade to eliminate it? Why does the government look the other way on enacting laws against discrimination? Why does the government ignore illegal actions by most dispatch agencies for teachers, thereby reducing the quality of education, yet at the same time they promote claims that the feds are actually trying to improve it? And, even so, why can't the government stay with one concept of how to improve English education here? [example: Koizumi's administration was finally set to impose mandatory English in elementary school, then Abe nixed that. Now we are in limbo. SOMEONE had it figured out in Koizumi's time, yet the "old boy network" in power after him brushed away that rationale.] (These are rhetorical questions, so please don't answer.)

Because as I've mentioned, I just see this as basically ensuring no one lives in Japan for too long without integrating at a basic level language-wise and I find that reasonable. I don't smell a doomsday scenario looming for foreigners entering Japan, not on this front anyhow.I really don't think we can say that there is any assurance of anything right now. If they truly wanted to make that point clear for long-term integration (something they are blatantly opposed to, you realize), then they would have spelled things out clearer, done more research [even the little ramblings you see on discussion forums took just a handful of synapses to calculate], and they would have at least TRIED to show some sincerity in the whole situation. I'm not crying doomsday here, but look at the record. It just doesn't support that view.

Sorry, but I'm going to be out of touch for a while for a week or so. I have an enormous pile of work backlogged. I'll check in a little, but can't sacrifice this much time on this sort of discussion until that work is over. I think I've made my points as clear as possible.

[Chidoriashi]

Taiko666 and Dave> Dave I agree that that only a minority, probably 10%, of western foreigners can communicate effectively in Japanese. But I want to add that I think part of the problem of westerners seeming to expect people to speak English to them here, could in part lie within thinking that many people can speak English in Japan. I don't know what you guys hear from people back in your home country, but a lot of people I have talked to seem to have picked up a preconceived notion that most Japanese people are proficient in English. Also I think many Westerners (especially older people) may think that Japanese is simply beyond their ability to learn. "It just looks to damn hard" etc..
(I still think that people who want to live here more than 3 years should have at least daily conversation ability though).

[Calchas]

....

So, basically, anyone that isn't prepared to fully adjust to a foreign country has no business living there in my opinion. If Japanese becomes too hard, stop whining and try for a European culture. :souka:

That is a rather simply view. Many factors can combine to prevent someone from learning a language. For instance If I where to come to Japan as a highly skilled person with a well paid job I have the time and the money to pursue learning the language and the culture of my new home. I would NOT be moving to Japan to attain a better life but simply to enjoy another culture.

However many low to middle wage earners have neither the time nor funds to learn a new language these folks move to a new country to attain a better life for themselves and their families. They may have no real interest in becoming "Japanese" ( Or "American" or whatever) and instead devote their time to more pressing needs, like putting a roof over their heads and food on the table. They work hard so that their children can have more options and adapt better to their new home.

Laws that punish folks for not learning the host country language, while doing nothing to aid them in adapting to their new home, will in the long run only hurt the host country itself.


If Japan really wants to be multiculural and reap the benefits of that, then it needs to look at ways to accept new people rather then ways to exclude them. But if Japan is afraid of becoming a multiculural country then laws such as the one we are discussing are a good way to stop that trend.

When I hear of laws like this I am always reminded of Southern Blacks here in America who where denied the right to vote if they couldn't pass a test. Same type of law and IMHO if Japan goes down this road they will be looking for the same kinda effect.