Request for Long-Term Job Advice

[karlyboo]

Hi all,

In my ongoing quest to formulate a decent, workable plan for the next few years I was wondering if I could pick the brains of some of the longer-term Japanese residents regarding job prospects.

Long story short I've researched (over the last 18 months) visas, starting jobs, starting salaries, taxes, rents, properties and so forth but one of the missing links I'm still hunting for are prospects for foreigners.

So, I'd like to ask Glinski and some of the other authorities where a foreigner might realistically go with employment, or if one is likely to be on a low-end wage permanently?

It's obviously something that may never be even slightly important as my stint overseas may only last 6 months, that said it may last 10 years and I'd like to be prepared for all eventualities.

I understand, as far as English teaching goes, that private tuition and University jobs can be lucrative once a body has built up suitable experience and a selection of worthwhile clients- can anybody recommend some ballpark figures? I appreciate that's an incredibly broad and varied vocation however. Teaching aside, what other prospects could realistically appear once a work visa were acquired (dependant on Japanese skills obviously)?

Many thanks and my apologies for what I know is an incredibly open-ended question.

[Glenski]

Long story short I've researched (over the last 18 months) visas, starting jobs, starting salaries, taxes, rents, properties and so forth but one of the missing links I'm still hunting for are prospects for foreigners.

So, I'd like to ask Glinski and some of the other authorities where a foreigner might realistically go with employment, or if one is likely to be on a low-end wage permanently?
I presume you mean me. E not I.
You're British/Irish, so that means you could come here on a working holiday visa for a year if need be. Do some scouting around, feel out the employers, work at a few of them, get your feet wet, and see if you even like it. Your profile says you have been here less than a month. How can you really make long-term plans without knowing what it's like anywhere?

You have also not mentioned your age or educational background. Put simply, if you really want to work long-term somewhere, you either have to have the right education or the right amount of experience in order to qualify for a work visa (for any sort of job). Help us out with this basic info.

I understand, as far as English teaching goes, that private tuition and University jobs can be lucrative once a body has built up suitable experience and a selection of worthwhile clientsI'm sorry. I can't understand this. What are you trying to say?

- can anybody recommend some ballpark figures? I appreciate that's an incredibly broad and varied vocation however.Are you asking what income people could make teaching here?

Teaching aside, what other prospects could realistically appear once a work visa were acquired (dependant on Japanese skills obviously)?You can't get a work visa first. You get hired first by an employer who is willing to sponsor a work visa, and then you apply for the visa. (You may not even get it, which means you wouldn't be able to work.)

Non-teaching jobs usually require fairly high Japanese fluency. Consider the reverse situation in your country. How many non-English-speaking foreigners would land jobs there? The more you know the language, the better your chances of getting work. There are always exceptions, but few people write about them on these forums, and when they do, I have found they inevitably don't give enough information for people like you to go on, or the information provided excludes the person asking for some unique reason. The poster Ewok on this forum is one example.

You might try finding a job at a company in the UK which has branches here. With luck, they will not require so much Japanese to do the actual job, but you should still learn some of the language to survive daily affairs (and perhaps deal with some work situations). Even so, consider that unless you are an executive, you are not likely to get sent overseas right away in most companies. Why should they risk sending a newbie? Besides, the intracompany transfer visa requires at least a year of working in one's home country before being eligible.

What other work are you qualified to do? That is turning the question around again so you can let us know your background. Bear in mind that you will usually have to have some experience/education/skill that Japanese people don't have in order to get a job here, even if you have good Japanese language skills. Teaching is something that is just easier to get than any other job because the Japanese are unable to provide the natural sounds and grammar needed. Anything else will likely be much harder.

Long-term goals are admirable, but let's just see what the current situation is with the questions I've asked so far. One more -- why Japan?

[karlyboo]

Cheers for the swift reply, matey.

I presume you mean me. E not I.


Dyslexic fingers, my apologies ;)


You're British/Irish, so that means you could come here on a working holiday visa for a year if need be. Do some scouting around, feel out the employers, work at a few of them, get your feet wet, and see if you even like it.


Already planning on something similar :)

Your profile says you have been here less than a month. How can you really make long-term plans without knowing what it's like anywhere?


Slight confusion- I would like to know if it is worth making long-term plans, and that would depend on realistically where I could go with English teaching and what else might be available. Information on anything outside of starting positions seems hard to come by.

I have no plans to move anywhere (semi) permanently without spending at least 6 months in the country first, but I would like to collect information so I know where I might stand.


You have also not mentioned your age or educational background. Put simply, if you really want to work long-term somewhere, you either have to have the right education or the right amount of experience in order to qualify for a work visa (for any sort of job). Help us out with this basic info.


25, First Class Degree (Computing), 3 years IT experience, English as my first language, worked as a classroom assistant at a Junior School (ages 7-11) for two years during my higher education, looking to move into teaching English like my Father (an English teacher at secondary school), with TESOL qualifications scouted out (saving for the fees currently).

I'm sorry. I can't understand this. What are you trying to say?


I'd heard from various sources that good money can be made in teaching English in Japan by getting work at a University in that capacity, or by going into private tuition once one has built up a decent base of clients and a solid background of experience. Is this true? If so, what sort of salaries can be pulled in?


Are you asking what income people could make teaching here?


Pretty much :) Is the top whack generally 300,000Y per month or can you make more? If so, what sort of avenues would one pursue?

For example, in IT I'm looking at salaries of about £25-30,000 PA in the London area (6,000,000Y), what sort of monies can an experienced English teacher bring in? Obviously I expect to take a big pay hit from that, but is it possible to work up to that sort of figure with enough experience and dedication? If not, how high can one realistically get?

You can't get a work visa first. You get hired first by an employer who is willing to sponsor a work visa, and then you apply for the visa. (You may not even get it, which means you wouldn't be able to work.)


I'm aware of this, sorry for not making that clearer.

Non-teaching jobs usually require fairly high Japanese fluency. Consider the reverse situation in your country. How many non-English-speaking foreigners would land jobs there? The more you know the language, the better your chances of getting work. There are always exceptions, but few people write about them on these forums, and when they do, I have found they inevitably don't give enough information for people like you to go on, or the information provided excludes the person asking for some unique reason. The poster Ewok on this forum is one example.

It does seem to be quite a struggle to find any 'success stories' from people outside of teaching, which is why I thought I'd ask and make sure it wasn't just me missing some blindingly obvious source of information.

I've nothing against teaching and have worked as a classroom assistant before, so I don't want to imply I'm against it in any way; it's the most likely alternative career for me, I just want to be sure of my options.


You might try finding a job at a company in the UK which has branches here. With luck, they will not require so much Japanese to do the actual job, but you should still learn some of the language to survive daily affairs (and perhaps deal with some work situations). Even so, consider that unless you are an executive, you are not likely to get sent overseas right away in most companies. Why should they risk sending a newbie? Besides, the intracompany transfer visa requires at least a year of working in one's home country before being eligible.


That's something I have been looking into, definitely, although a career move from IT is my ambition.


One more -- why Japan?

As a pedant, I can't answer that without more experience of the country. I've not spent enough time out there.

I have, however, spent time there and want to spend more. I'm very interested in moving out of IT and into teaching (which I'm currently making moves to do), like my father, and would be very interested in teaching in the Far East (again a hang-over from my father, who instilled an interest and experience of it in me from a young age). I very much was impressed with what I've seen on my vacations in Japan, however I'm not about to sell up everything and buy a house, the next couple of years are about spending time out there on several more vacations using the (ample) tourist visa.

I'm having a hard time turning up anything work-wise apart from entry level positions. I'd like to know what else is going, teaching or otherwise, and what a body could expect to earn.

Apologies for the sprawling answer, I hope that fills in a few of the blanks. Naturally I'm not expecting an answer down to three decimal places, just some general advice on where a body can go with English teaching and realistically what other options are out there.

Proof-reading my answer it sounds horribly like all I care about is the money; I apologise if that's how it sounds, it's just the obvious factor I want to understand but which I'm having difficulty finding information on.

Thanks in advance for the help.

[Glenski]

I would like to know if it is worth making long-term plans, and that would depend on realistically where I could go with English teaching and what else might be available. It also depends on how much you actually like living in the foreign country. Many people have never been to Japan, yet they have some esoteric dream of what it should be. They get here, perhaps with job in hand and a freshly minted bachelor's degree, and then realize to their dismay that things are different.
1. People don't walk around in kimonos all the time. Koto music is not played in all restaurants or elevators. Mcdonalds is everywhere.
2. They discover that they have a very tough time with the language barrier, despite a lot of English on signs in the bigger cities.
3. They also learn that what they thought was going to be easy money just chatting up some students is actually a real job, something they may never had to do until now.
4. They also find out that they can party their butts off, but it comes at an expense -- financially and vocationally. And, many are not prepared for that. Or they just don't give a rip about the effect it has on their job performance and the reputation of other foreigners.

Information on anything outside of starting positions seems hard to come by.Yup, and I'll be glad to add my 2 cents' worth, but I personally need a few more specific questions. Also, what seems "worth it" to one person may not to another.

I have no plans to move anywhere (semi) permanently without spending at least 6 months in the country first, but I would like to collect information so I know where I might stand.Sound reasoning, and the more you can learn about the working conditions vs. living conditions, the better. Coming only as a tourist gives one a totally different POV.

25, First Class Degree (Computing),Ok, this much alone automatically makes you eligible for entry level teaching work.

3 years IT experience, English as my first language, worked as a classroom assistant at a Junior School (ages 7-11) for two years during my higher education, looking to move into teaching English like my Father (an English teacher at secondary school), with TESOL qualifications scouted out (saving for the fees currently).So, no teaching experience in ESL yet. No TESOL certificate yet. Ok. No problem. Most newcomers (including myself a century ago) come with only a degree unrelated to teaching in their hands.

I'd heard from various sources that good money can be made in teaching English in Japan by getting work at a University in that capacity, or by going into private tuition once one has built up a decent base of clients and a solid background of experience. Is this true? If so, what sort of salaries can be pulled in?Where did you hear about such work at universities? It's totally false the way you described it.

University jobs (full-time) usually require a minimum of a master's degree in a specific field, plus publications, language ability, and experience in Japan. Part-time jobs are becoming just as competitive, but the qualifications are a bit less strict. Still, you can't get a work visa on PT work, so don't look at this for something to start out.

"Going into private tuition" sounds like teaching private lessons on the side. Yes, people do that, but there are some serious caveats you need to know.
1) You cannot get a work visa with private lessons.
2) Such lessons are very unstable. People will quit on a dime.
3) They may be easy to get sometimes, but they usually take quite a while to build up. Contacts and networking are critical. (You mentioned this.)
4) People are cheap. They will try to negotiate the lowest possible fees. There goes your "good money".

Salaries.
Entry level work will run 200,000 to 270,000 yen/month for conversation school (eikaiwa) jobs and ALT jobs through dispatch agencies. For the latter, you get less during breaks, perhaps no money at all, even though the agency continues to collect from the school. The other type of entry level job is ALT through the JET programme, which pays 300,000 per month. Realize that many eikaiwas and dispatch agencies get away with avoiding payments on your health insurance, but JET deducts about 40,000 yen/month. In your first year here, if you go with national health insurance, you will pay only 2500 yen/month on non-JET jobs, but thereafter it goes up tenfold or more. Take that into consideration when you compare salaries. Also, JET sometimes offers housing at reduced or free rent, while most other employers do nothing to help out. Get into direct hire jobs at mainstream schools, and salaries can increase to 300,000 or 400,000. Look into business English schools. Not sure how much they pay; could be 250K to 350K.

Supplement any of this work (if you have the time and energy and clients), and you can obviously make more money.

It does seem to be quite a struggle to find any 'success stories' from people outside of teaching, which is why I thought I'd ask and make sure it wasn't just me missing some blindingly obvious source of information. Go to www.daijob.com and read the English section of the site. Read everything Terrie Lloyd wrote on his links. He seems to deal only with non-teaching job markets.

I've nothing against teaching and have worked as a classroom assistant before, so I don't want to imply I'm against it in any way; it's the most likely alternative career for me, I just want to be sure of my options.
That's something I have been looking into, definitely, although a career move from IT is my ambition.You just got your IT degree and are considering a move away from it? That's your prerogative, of course, and I have seen enough people in that line of work looking for teaching jobs here because they say the market for their IT skills/experience back home is waning. It's good that you are at least thinking about what it would take to prepare for the long-term switch. I did it.

Getting your foot in the door here will not usually require much in the way of credentials, but lasting will. The largest eikaiwa NOVA just folded due to poor business practices, and 5000 teachers are on the streets as a result. A company called G-COM tried picking up the pieces, but it has also reneged some on its claims to rehire these people. Essentially, the market is flooded, so even entry level people need to know it won't be as easy to get hired right way. Surviving long-term is a whole different game, and you've already discovered there aren't many sites that offer stories about it. Ask specific questions, and I'll be glad to answer, though.

I'm having a hard time turning up anything work-wise apart from entry level positions. I hope you realize that this is the first step. Long-term jobs depend on the individual. People can get married and change to spouse visa (thereby allowing any sort of work, not just teaching), or start their own school, or string together PT jobs, etc. A 2001 report from the Justice Ministry said less than 10% of foreigners stay here more than 3 years. That should say something. For more advice from veterans, I'd suggest posting on the ESL Cafe or ELT News websites.
www.eslcafe.com/discussion
www.eltnews.com/community
I'm there, too.

[karlyboo]

Sorry for the late reply, I was away this weekend. Very helpful though, I'll go through some of the points if I may-

It also depends on how much you actually like living in the foreign country. Many people have never been to Japan, yet they have some esoteric dream of what it should be. They get here, perhaps with job in hand and a freshly minted bachelor's degree, and then realize to their dismay that things are different.
1. People don't walk around in kimonos all the time. Koto music is not played in all restaurants or elevators. Mcdonalds is everywhere.
2. They discover that they have a very tough time with the language barrier, despite a lot of English on signs in the bigger cities.
3. They also learn that what they thought was going to be easy money just chatting up some students is actually a real job, something they may never had to do until now.
4. They also find out that they can party their butts off, but it comes at an expense -- financially and vocationally. And, many are not prepared for that. Or they just don't give a rip about the effect it has on their job performance and the reputation of other foreigners.

The attitude some foreign workers have overseas never ceases to amaze me, tbh. I fully expect to work hard wherever I live, and particularly in a foreign country I'd expect to have to work socially hard also (learning how to speak at a good standard the local language, pick up the basics of writing etc.). How some people come straight out of Uni and think the world owes them a living is something I've never grasped (my apologies for the horrific generalisation, but I've known enough people like it!)

Luckily I'm not that into partying/drinking, I've seen what Japan is like (albeit only as a tourist) so I'm not under illusions of beautific gardens, temples and everybody dressed like a kabuki actor and I know that making a living anywhere takes hard work :)


Yup, and I'll be glad to add my 2 cents' worth, but I personally need a few more specific questions. Also, what seems "worth it" to one person may not to another.


Of course, it's all relative. You're helpful input a bit further down though is quite encouraging.


Sound reasoning, and the more you can learn about the working conditions vs. living conditions, the better. Coming only as a tourist gives one a totally different POV.


Very true and something I try to keep in mind.

Where did you hear about such work at universities? It's totally false the way you described it.
University jobs (full-time) usually require a minimum of a master's degree in a specific field, plus publications, language ability, and experience in Japan. Part-time jobs are becoming just as competitive, but the qualifications are a bit less strict. Still, you can't get a work visa on PT work, so don't look at this for something to start out.


For an entry level position I'd naturally be looking elsewhere, although I'd read on one of the numerous 'my story' blog type affairs that Unis were fair game (which TBH I did think a little odd, since as you observed they usually require you to have a damn good qualification in whatever you want to lecture on). Thanks for exploding that one :)

You say part-time work isn't as heavy on the qualifications though?


"Going into private tuition" sounds like teaching private lessons on the side. Yes, people do that, but there are some serious caveats you need to know.
1) You cannot get a work visa with private lessons.
2) Such lessons are very unstable. People will quit on a dime.
3) They may be easy to get sometimes, but they usually take quite a while to build up. Contacts and networking are critical. (You mentioned this.)
4) People are cheap. They will try to negotiate the lowest possible fees. There goes your "good money".


Very interesting. I knew it was going to be something to consider only after acquiring the visa and working in the sector for a while, so the best way to think of it is as potential source of pocket-money on the side, if a body can summon the energy to take it on?


Salaries.
Entry level work will run 200,000 to 270,000 yen/month for conversation school (eikaiwa) jobs and ALT jobs through dispatch agencies. For the latter, you get less during breaks, perhaps no money at all, even though the agency continues to collect from the school. The other type of entry level job is ALT through the JET programme, which pays 300,000 per month. Realize that many eikaiwas and dispatch agencies get away with avoiding payments on your health insurance, but JET deducts about 40,000 yen/month. In your first year here, if you go with national health insurance, you will pay only 2500 yen/month on non-JET jobs, but thereafter it goes up tenfold or more. Take that into consideration when you compare salaries. Also, JET sometimes offers housing at reduced or free rent, while most other employers do nothing to help out. Get into direct hire jobs at mainstream schools, and salaries can increase to 300,000 or 400,000. Look into business English schools. Not sure how much they pay; could be 250K to 350K.

That's exceedingly useful, thank you. I've read how the starter programs very much treat foreign English teachers as a disposable resource- low pay, negligible benefits on the ground that if they leave it doesn't matter since there are many willing to take their place.

I was considering using that as a stepping stone to more mainstream teaching, to build up a portfolio of experience and ability so to speak. It would also represent a relatively low-risk way to work in teaching since I would not be making a particularly long-term commitment. Would you think that a sensible angle to take on it?

What sort of hours would the starting positions realistically be looking at do you think? I know their websites say one thing but I've read from other experiences that these hours tend to look low due to their treating 7 minute breaks in between classes as 'time out of the classroom' and other various tricks.

I'm used to a 40 hour week (more like 45 including commuting) so I'm not afraid of putting the hours in, although that said a couple of hours extra to myself a week to work on my guitar/keyboard would be awesome ;-)

I'm also given to understand that the public holidays aren't too bad, as with most teaching positions in the world, but usually not paid?


Supplement any of this work (if you have the time and energy and clients), and you can obviously make more money.
Go to www.daijob.com and read the English section of the site. Read everything Terrie Lloyd wrote on his links. He seems to deal only with non-teaching job markets.


Excellent, thank you very much :)


You just got your IT degree and are considering a move away from it? That's your prerogative, of course, and I have seen enough people in that line of work looking for teaching jobs here because they say the market for their IT skills/experience back home is waning. It's good that you are at least thinking about what it would take to prepare for the long-term switch. I did it.

I'm something of a tortured IT workers ;) I'm good at it (hence why I've taken it this far) but I absolutely hate it. I greatly miss social interaction and find the job generally de-humanising as a result. I spend most of my days arguing with a code-compiler. As you rightly observed, the market is also becoming increasingly flooded.

That said there is money in IT and there always will be, so despite my loathing for the sector it's not something I'm going to throw away without a lot of planning first :) After all, it pays my rent.


Getting your foot in the door here will not usually require much in the way of credentials, but lasting will. The largest eikaiwa NOVA just folded due to poor business practices, and 5000 teachers are on the streets as a result. A company called G-COM tried picking up the pieces, but it has also reneged some on its claims to rehire these people. Essentially, the market is flooded, so even entry level people need to know it won't be as easy to get hired right way. Surviving long-term is a whole different game, and you've already discovered there aren't many sites that offer stories about it. Ask specific questions, and I'll be glad to answer, though.


Yes, the dissolve of NOVA was quite a shock. I was all too aware that if it had happened a couple of years in the future instead it might have been me absolutely ******, offering to teach for food.

How would you recommend developing long-term, desirable skills in the sector?

Naturally native language ability is important to develop, would you recommend further paper qualifications or time in the classroom?


I hope you realize that this is the first step. Long-term jobs depend on the individual. People can get married and change to spouse visa (thereby allowing any sort of work, not just teaching), or start their own school, or string together PT jobs, etc. A 2001 report from the Justice Ministry said less than 10% of foreigners stay here more than 3 years. That should say something. For more advice from veterans, I'd suggest posting on the ESL Cafe or ELT News websites.
www.eslcafe.com/discussion
www.eltnews.com/community
I'm there, too.

Ooh excellent links, thank you :122: The turnover of foreigners is preposterously high, I suspect it has something to do with the unrealistic expectations you mentioned at the start, people who don't have the first clue what they are realistically signing up for.

I'll take some time out over the next few weeks and begin digesting the resources you've offered. Thank you very much for your help :) It's greatly appreciated.

[Glenski]

You say part-time work isn't as heavy on the qualifications though?That's right, but you still need a proper visa to work here, and PT uni work doesn't offer visa sponsorship.

Very interesting. I knew it was going to be something to consider only after acquiring the visa and working in the sector for a while, so the best way to think of it is as potential source of pocket-money on the side, if a body can summon the energy to take it on?Yes. There may be a few rare individuals who can actually live off their private lessons (I know of only one who did it), but they have special means to stay (quit a job and keep the visa, for example, or have a dependent or spouse visa as another), and it's a lot of work to get and maintain the private lessons. Travel time to meet students can take a toll on you, and even if you teach in your own home, you have to consider a lot of things. Centralization for one. Keeping a spare section set aside for another. And, more.

I've read how the starter programs very much treat foreign English teachers as a disposable resource- low pay, negligible benefits on the ground that if they leave it doesn't matter since there are many willing to take their place.
I was considering using that as a stepping stone to more mainstream teaching, to build up a portfolio of experience and ability so to speak. It would also represent a relatively low-risk way to work in teaching since I would not be making a particularly long-term commitment. Would you think that a sensible angle to take on it?Yup. It's what most sensible people do. Not many make eikaiwa jobs a career. There just isn't any long-term benefit to them.

What sort of hours would the starting positions realistically be looking at do you think? I know their websites say one thing but I've read from other experiences that these hours tend to look low due to their treating 7 minute breaks in between classes as 'time out of the classroom' and other various tricks.Expect 20-30 classroom hours per week, over a 5-day week. That might mean initially working on weekends and always from noonish to 9pm (when customers are available). Newbies usually get stuck with 5 days a week, but don't expect 2 consecutive days off as a weekend. Beyond the classroom hours, you may be allowed to stay in the building or roam freely, and you may be asked to perform other duties (interviewing prospective students, sitting in the lobby to attract/chat with students, paperwork, etc.). These may not be considered actual work hours and the employers often use that description to report you as a part-timer to the government in a (legal) way to avoid making copayments on health insurance.

I'm also given to understand that the public holidays aren't too bad, as with most teaching positions in the world, but usually not paid?There are about a dozen national holidays here. Some schools are open then. Depends. But if you work, you should get paid. Most eikaiwas probably give a week off around Golden Week and Obon, and then a week or 2 around New Year. Paid. Again, don't know why you heard differently.

Yes, the dissolve of NOVA was quite a shock. I was all too aware that if it had happened a couple of years in the future instead it might have been me absolutely ******, offering to teach for food.
How would you recommend developing long-term, desirable skills in the sector?Join JALT or ETJ and attend seminars, make presentations, write. JALT has a writers' help group, too. David English House makes its way around Japan for training sessions, too. Don't go it alone when it comes to self-improvement, even though it will take self-discipline. The network of helpful people here is incredible, but so many go it alone because they don't know about it.

Naturally native language ability is important to develop, would you recommend further paper qualifications or time in the classroom?If you plan to be here long-term, absolutely.

Ooh excellent links, thank you :122: The turnover of foreigners is preposterously high, I suspect it has something to do with the unrealistic expectations you mentioned at the start, people who don't have the first clue what they are realistically signing up for.Yup. And, many realize that long-term eikaiwa is about all they can get, so they just work their butts off to earn some money, then go back home to a different career.

I'll take some time out over the next few weeks and begin digesting the resources you've offered. Thank you very much for your help :) It's greatly appreciated.No problem. There's more where that came from.