Why do You Support Whaling?

[Mikawa Ossan]

Why do you support whaling in the abstract sense?
Make your case here!

I have noticed several cases for supporting whaling.


Maintaining cultural traditions
Whale populations have recovered sufficiently that manageable commercial whaling is possible.
Hunting whales is no different from hunting any other animal.


This is just off the top of my head, so I'm sure there are a lot of reasons to support whaling that are not on my list! But more importantly, what do YOU believe?


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This thread is for stating your beliefs only. It is not for debating pro vs. anti whaling.

Any off-topic remarks will be removed. Any flaming and responding to flaming will be similarly treated with the addition of a formal infraction for each instance.

I know whaling is an emotional issue. Let's work together and keep the debate on the other threads.

If you are anti-whaling, you can make your case in the following thread:
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36207

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[david@tokyo]

Two big reasons for me:

1) Sustainable utilisation of natural resources is the way of the future. Scientific advice is that sustainable utilisation of abundant whale stocks is possible. With many of the world's fisheries in an over-fished, over-depleted state, we need good examples of sound scientific principles being put into action to achieve sustainable utilisation of marine resources. The science of whale stock management is arguably the most advanced in the marine resource management field, and this great opportunity must not be put to waste. It's important to recognise that conservation and sustainable utilisation are consistent - blanket protections and sustainable utilisation are not.

2) Respect / Tolerance for peoples of other cultural beliefs. In various places around the world, people have come to eat various types of living creatures and vegetables as a result of their geographic and cultural backgrounds. Seeking today to impose one's beliefs upon others is unacceptable in a world that tolerates and respects diversity. Those people who consume no animals also consume lifeforms (vegetables) to sustain their own existence. Humble people accept that their views are theirs alone and respect the rights of others to differ, and live their lives as they wish in accordance with their own beliefs, providing that they do not infringe upon the rights of others. This is a basic foundation of decent and peaceful human society.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I'm quite undecided on this debate at the moment.
Reasons why i tolerate whaling at the moment;

a. As long as the whales are being hunted in a sustainable way and females with calves or calves on their own or not being hunted, then this is better.

b. We hunt plenty of other wild animals in our country, from boar to deer, i think it is hypocritical of us to be telling other countries what to or what not to hunt when it comes to animals which are not endangered/threatened when we hunt plenty of such animals ourselves. If whales were endangered, then i would completely disagree with whaling, but at the moment this is not the case.

c. Some villages in Japan really do rely massively on whaling to sustain their existence, it is also a matter of upholding cultural traditions- Inuits for example hunt whales, yet i don't seeing any greenpeace activists targeting them? Certainly for sure that in the Inuits case, without whaling and seal hunting their communities and culture would go extinct.


BUT, the main reason why i disagree with whale hunting is that;

a. So far, i do not know of any humane forms of killing whales that do not cause immense suffering to the whale and do not take ages to kill the whale. For me, this is the primarily reason why i am against whaling. Until we can figure out a method to kill whales in a humane manner, i think we should resist killing them. How can someone say they live in a civilized society when they kill animals in cruel gory manners?

b. At the end of the day we do not know that much about whales. I do think we should be hunting whales and so interfering with large fragile marine ecosystems until we know a lot more about the lives of whales and the roles they have to play in marine ecosystems.
We only discovered quite recently that dead whale carcasses support a massive variety of marine animals and creatures on the bottom of the oceans floors, many animals of which are very specialized and survive completely off dead whale carcasses or whose existence is critical to the supply of dead whales etc.
We simple don't really know or understand well the impacts of whaling on marine ecosystems. We know that whales have recovered in numbers enough to survive small scale commercial hunting, but we don't know things like whether from an marine ecosystems point if whales are in large enough numbers to support the health and prosperity of the many ecosystems which are connected to them etc.



So at least for me, points a. and b. are the main reasons why i am wary about whaling in its current state and not in favor of it.

[david@tokyo]

Two more reasons in favour of sustainable whaling:
1) Whale meat is more environmentally friendly than other substitute meats, such as beef, as shown in a recent study covered by Reuters.
2) There is more meat per whale than on other types of animal, and they live free lives in the ocean. Whale meat is thus better than other meats from an animal welfare perspective, although of course room for further improvement remains.

[RolandtheHeadless]

Because I happen to be re-reading "Moby Dick," and I really, really want to go on a Nantucket Sleighride. That has to be the ultimate rush! No wonder Ishmael says that whaling gets into your blood.

Better than hunting cape buffalo, or leopards at night, I bet.

Anyone know if there are businesses offering whaling tours? I want one that does it the old way, with hand-thrown harpoons.

[Mike Cash]

I want one that does it the old way, with hand-thrown harpoons.

Harpoons typically weren't thrown; they were thrust.

A very interesting site on the matter (http://www.whalecraft.net/Harpoons.html)

[Chris_Slater]

SUPPORT WHALING!
This is an e-mail I sent to Chris Laidlaw's National Programme's 'Sunday', following some vacuous comments he and a guest made about Japanese whaling:

"The comments about the sins of Japanese whaling and their hypocrisy are sanctimonious cant. Whales, just as man is, are part of the food chain, and to excuse them because they're "sentient" defies logic. Should we only eat stupid animals? No pigs, but horses are OK? What constitutes whale sentience and how different is it to that of cows, deer, pigs or sheep? Why should it be treated differently?

"The only real issue is the sustainability and husbandry of resources. It would be self-defeating to cause the extinction of any of the whale species, and there's no evidence that whaling countries are doing this. Common humanity should prevent undue pain or distress to whales when they are killed, but it is in the interests of an efficient industry to ensure that this is the case.

"The current fashion for opposing whaling is, like opposition to the use of fur, groundless, emotional, and fickle. Other than sustainability and undue cruelty, there is not one rational reason to oppose either the hunting of whales, eating of their flesh (which I would unhesitatingly), and use of industry by-products. That few eat whale meat in Japan is a matter of a scarce commodity, not a scarce resource. The argument that it’s not necessary to eat whale meat because other food sources are available can be used with practically all food sources on the Green's Dietary Laws list, till all we get left with is lentil patties. This isn’t a world I want to live in.

"No argument about whaling used in today’s program was possessed of common sense or intelligence. There was a clear loss of perspective and sense of reality in raising one species to a level of reverence. Whales are subject to the vicissitudes of life, of which we are just one of many. We won’t be repeating the sins of the Maori with moas et al and hunt them to extinction, so they really don’t need our help in survival."

Note that Dawn Carr, British co-ordinator of People for Ethical Treatment of Animals, says she "would prefer people to eat whale meat rather than farmed salmon. . . It can feed hundreds, so less [sic] fish have to die." She ignores the inverse ratio between creature size and quantity. "We talk about dolphin-safe tuna, but what about the poor tuna caught in the nets? It deserves a life, too. What about the worms squirming on the end of the hook?" She has dedicated her life to stop the British catching and eating any fish at all. While not encouraging violence she "won’t rule anything out. I understand groups who smash into animal testing laboratories to liberate victims." Dominion 11/8/01. BBC’s HardTalk’s Tim Sebastian mercilessly exposed her moral vacuity.

More speculatively, concomitant with increasing sensitivity to whales and other more furry species is the wax of the feminist, imposing unexamined caution and the predominance of nurture without the balance of masculine practicality and common sense.

The Expert Drafting Group of the International Whaling Commission met recently in Auckland to finalise the regulations for the Revised Management Scheme. This will allow a limited return to commercial whaling. Kate Sanderson is a whaling adviser to the Prime Minister of the Faroe Islands, which is dependent on whaling for food. She considers that opposition to whaling comes from urban dwellers in high income countries ‘humanising’ whales.

Japan is being demonised for its attitude to whaling, and for attempting to buy votes in support of its view. It should be remembered that in the 1980s Greenpeace actively lobbied for countries opposing whaling to join the IWC to implement the moratorium on whaling, even though they were not directly affected. In many countries opposing whaling, the issues are handled not by the fishing ministries but by the ones responsible for the environment, earning cheap green points along the way.

I don't want to be seen as supporting whaling, though. I've got bigger fish to fry.

[InvisibleSkyMagician]

Let me state first off that I don't support whaling. I do however support Japan from racist Australians who pretend to care about whales. Not to mention they hunted whales in the past too.

And they're pretty much the only country complaining too.

Why do you support whaling in the abstract sense?

Maintaining cultural traditions

Cultural traditions is a fallacy and should be ignored. What if it was a country's tradition to eat babies and they used the "cultural tradition" argument?

Whale populations have recovered sufficiently that manageable commercial whaling is possible.

Keyword "manageable" and sustainable. If we can keep in captivity, breed and slaughter... actually that's too kind of a word. If we can inflict GENOCIDE on entire populations of cows, sheep, ducks and pigs, then surely we can do the same to whales? Not to mention the overfishing issue.

Imagine your human mother being forced to give birth to sons and daughters only to grow up be killed and eaten.

To kill billions of cows and pigs yet not whales is completely illogical.

We either kill them all or set them all free.

Hunting whales is no different from hunting any other animal.

And that relates to the above point. No different. At all.


But more importantly, what do YOU believe?

Something that can be objectively defined: The law. When Japan hunts for whales, they are not breaking any laws.

If any anti-whaler person has a problem with that, complain to the lawmakers, not Japan.

Until we can figure out a method to kill whales in a humane manner

It will be interesting to see what the anti-whaling debate would be like if 2 conditions are filled:

1) Whales are hunted sustainably
2) Whales are quickly killed with no pain

In other words, whales become another farming commodity the same as cows, pigs and sheep.

I view whales the same I view cows and pigs.

The end result is we either farm all these animals or farm none of them, because to only leave whales alone is to submit ourselves to irrational emotions.

[risingsun]

Cows and pigs are bred by their killers. I will support japan whaling habits if japan can bred whales in their own 200 miles economic zone. Whales can only gives offspring one or two at a time and it takes years for them to give another one or two baby whales. Fish can bred a thousand fish in a single mating session.

[RolandtheHeadless]

"Harpoons typically weren't thrown; they were thrust."

Sorry. Melville actually served on mid-19th Century whaling ships, and he describes the process in considerable detail. Harpoons were first THROWN to attach the boat to the whale via a line. After the whale had tired itself by towing the boat around, the boat would draw near so that another, spear-like weapon (the name of which I've forgotten) could be thrust into the whale to dispatch it.

[RolandtheHeadless]

"Cultural traditions is a fallacy and should be ignored."

Aren't you really saying that cultural traditions should be thrown out in favor of your own values? People with that thinking ignored, diminished, and forbade the cultural traditions of American Natives, with devastating results. The Japanese are entitled to their own cultural traditions too.

Replace your own cultural traditions with these New-Age values, if you will. Just don't try to impose the latter on others.

"What if it was a country's tradition to eat babies and they used the "cultural tradition" argument?"

An extreme example can be used to support any argument. In Japan, abortion is not a controversial issue. In parts of the US, people look on abortion as baby killing. Whose values should prevail in international disputes? The ones you agree with, I suppose.

"Imagine your human mother being forced to give birth to sons and daughters only to grow up be killed and eaten."

Ah, no. The trick for you is to get a cow or pig to imagine that. Or even find one that knows its own offspring six months after they're weaned.

"To kill billions of cows and pigs yet not whales is completely illogical."

I agree with you there. The minke whales that the Japanese harvest are not an endangered species.

"We either kill them all or set them all free."

No, what we do is maintain populations at harvestable levels.

[Tullera]

I am opposed to whaling. I have seen whales die and it is a long and gruesome process. No animal deserves to die that way.

I am also opposed to hunting - unless the person hunting is going to eat the whole beast with his family or village. Same for whales. If a village sets out and kills a whale and brings it back home to eat completely and use completely then despite how gruesome it is the people in that village need it to survive. Factory ships are a different story.

I am also opposed to the way most farm animals are killed. It is a dreadful process which, while generally quick at the actual moment of slaughter involves hours and sometimes days or even weeks (when sent on ships to the middle east) of stress for the animals as they are transported and are terrified waiting around for their destiny.

I really think all who eat meat of any kind should see the process up close.

That being said, I do eat some meat although am mostly vegetarian. I am also an environmental scientist who studies animals and nature for a living.

[RolandtheHeadless]

If you really study animals for a living, then how come you don't know that the natural fate is death in "a long and gruesome process"? Sorry, but animals do not die in hospital beds surrounded by loved ones.

Ever see an animal dying of disease or starvation? It's a long, gruesome, horrible process.

Ever see an animal eaten alive by another animal? A cat playing with a mouse before killing it?

Or a pack of wolves eating a caribou alive for half an hour, eating its guts out as the caribou wails piteously, until one of the wolves accidentally ruptures the abdominal aorta?

You should quit watching those Disney movies, and get out in the field more.

[bakaKanadajin]

I don't support it for several good reasons which would be off topic.
I guess some people see a need to still hunt whales in the same way some cultures still dance to make it rain. To each their own.

[RolandtheHeadless]

Good point. Thou shalt not impose thy cultural values on others.

Shake off those Western-Christian evangelical impulses, and learn to tolerate other values. Whenever we white Europeans try to tell others how they should live, we go astray. (See US in Iraq and Afghanistan.)

Humans are as much a part of nature as the whales or wolves. We're omnivores, with a preference for meat that's wired into our genes because of the high-energy requirements of our large brains. Our role on this earth, whether given by God or nature, is as top-of-the-chain predators.

You don't see tigers or sharks going around apologizing for their role, do you?

I don't believe in killing purely for sport, and I abhor waste. My sympathies are with those who hunt for food and to maintain a spiritual connection to the natural world.