Radical difference between East and West regarding relationships and marriage

[Maciamo]

It's not the first topic on the subject, but I'll try to summarize what I've learned in all my discussions (most of them with Japanese people in real life). I've also talked with some Korean friends and it seems Korean and Japanese mentality about the followings are very similar. It also appears that Western way of thinking, whatever the country, from Europe to America to Australia is basically the same on these issues. Here it is.

Reason for marriage

West : Love => people promise to love each other for ever when they get married (even if it's often a dream). Modern laws make it the same to get children outside marriage, so that if people only want children, marriage is not even necessary. Marriage is usually a proof of love and comitment for life. If love disappears, people tend to divorce easily (except sometimes when there are small children, to avoid perturbing them psychologically).

Japan : Children => with or without love is not very important. Lots of marriage are still arranged ("miai") and some Japanese think that it's better than love marriage because loveless arranged marriage rarely end up in divorce as the purpose is to have and raise children, and for the woman often to quit working and care about the household. Japanese men often look down on women at work, but are usually ready to ask them to stay at home and pay for their expenses, even if their salary is tight. As the father of a child born outside marriage is not legally recognised, the marriage rate of parents is close to 100%.

Japanese family relationships

Even in love marriages, once a woman has a baby, her husband regards her as a mother, not a woman anymore, which means their sexual life comes to an end. The new mother is said to lose completely interest in her husband anyway (this may not be true in international couples, from what I've heard).

In most families, children sleep with both parents or just the mother. The the latter case, the father has his own room. I've been told that this way he wouldn't wake his wife and children up when he comes back late from work.

Sleeping with the child(ren) in the middle of the parents is so common in Japan that Japanese and a special name for it, a comparison it to the kanji 川 (kawa = river). Children might sleep with their parents till age 3, 5, 8, 12 or even 16, depending on the family, number of children and space in the house.

Western reaction to children sleeping with parents

Westerners find for the least surprising that children sleep everyday with their parents (especially till age 12 or later !). They should not forget that on top of this it is normal in Japan for a father to have a bath with his children, even 20 year-old girls ! I guess that if the average Japanese man loses interest in his wife once she becomes a mother, there is no problem with children either.

I've heard a lot that Westerners would be afraid of crushing their new-born baby by sleeping in the same bed, but I was told that it never happened (of all mamals, only male sealions and pandas sometime crush their babies to death when sleeping with them, but never humans would it seem). The good point of the mother sleeping with the baby is that the baby doesn't cry because it feels secure near its mother and has a unexhaustable warm-milk bottle at its disposal. I've read that it was better for babies to be breastfed than drink other milk. That system definitely has its advantages.

Another concern is that the parents lose their privacy and can't have sex anymore - unless doing it in front of the child, which is a kind of taboo in the Judeo-Christian mindset. As Japanese parents stop having sex regularily after their children are born, that isn't a problem.

For international couples who do continue, I was told little babies can sleep very well even with the parents doing whatever they please right beside them. But they should have their own room from age 3 or 4 then.

Finally, lots of Westerners think it might cause psychological problems to the children to sleep with their parents. But Japanese do it and seem to be alright with it. The only drawback I can think of is the independence factor. Japanese are very group-minded and usually have difficulty thinking by themselves. It may be related.

Why do Japanese women stop working when they get married or pregnant ?

1) It's in the culture like that. They usually want to. Most Westerners think they are forced to quit, but they often resigned from their own will (or from what society has inculcated them). Japanese men also prefer that their wife stay at home once married. Women almost always want to spend as much time as they can with their babies (remember J-girls like what is "kawaii" ? The connection is evident).
2) Nursery schools are few and very expensive in Japan (I've heard about 200.000 yen/month). It make more sense for the mother to stay at home than work and pay almost all her salary for the nursery. In most Western countries, nurseries and kindergartens are free, which allows lots of mothers to work.
3) Paternity leaves don't exist in Japan, and (paid) maternity leave are not encouraged.


Japanese relation to sex

There is a kind a tacit understanding between spouse that after 10 years of marriage (loveless anyway) and a few children, the man is free to satisfy his libido somewhere else. That is why the sex industry is so prosperous in Japan.

Male literature in combini is 90% porn and everyone reads it openly (and shamelessly) anywhere. Even serios newspapers have their pink pages. This is just beyound belief for Westerners first visiting Japan.

Japanese men who miss talking to young and cute girls (or not so young and not so cute, depending on the price and place) go to hostess bars or "snack" after work. Nothing much happens there except dirty talk. Those who want to go more carnal have the soaplands and massage parlours, but Asian men's testosterone level is reputedly lower than Caucasian or African men, so they are often satisfied with just talking, watching - and groping...

There is also the infamous "enjo kosai" or teenage prostitution. I'd like to say that for lots of Japanese (or East Asian) women, this isn't even considered as prostitution. Many find it normal to have sex with a man that pays them whatever they want. Remember that marriage is not much more than a man giving almosy all his salary to a woman to make children and take care of them. It suely sounds utterly shocking to lots of you, but after talking to (female) Japanese and other Asian friends I know quite well, they don't even see it as abnormal. It's in the mores, that's all. That doesn't mean Japanese women cheat more, but lots of them certainly consider money as more important than love or sex (which I find very saddening).

Behind this, I've realised that cuteness (the kawaii factor) iss very powerful in Japanese women's mentality. They like babies, cute anime characters and cute clothes more than anything else, it seems. Men have an obsessive care about their job and status. My impression is that this stereotype works as well for Korea and China, if not also South-East Asia.


Divorce and charge of the children

In 95% of cases in Japan, the woman gets the exclusive charge of the children. It only seems natural as the father often don't really care about them. He comes back late from work and rarely take part in their education. After a divorce, it's not normal for the father to just forget about his offsprings. He doesn't care very much. That's the mother's role to care for them.

That might sound crude again to some Westerners, as in the West parents sometimes fight bitterly over the charge of their children, and in peaceful cases, it's usual to find arrangement such as the children stay one week with the mother, next week with the father, or, weekdays at the mother's and weekends at the father's. Anyway, lots of father would feel terrible not to see their children regularily. (see the thread about children abduction (http://forum.japanreference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=323) on this regard).

[jspecdan]

yeah i've noticed that among the Japanese couples I know. kind of dull in a way how there is no affection between the two, but they form a strong family regardless.

[budd]

very interesting. will really read later. thanks for the thread!
edit: same here! some of it might be considered inflammatory :) but i can't really say i disagree just yet...

[kirei_na_me]

Oh boy. Thanks for starting this Maciamo. This has been an area of constant interest for me, and one that I have spent much time observing. I need to go gather my thoughts on this before I post.

[kirei_na_me]

I have been living with a Japanese person for 7 years now. I knew nothing really about Japanese culture before then other than sushi, Pearl Harbor, A-bombs, hi-tech, geisha, and that the men were supposedly oppressors.

Over the past 7 years, though, I came to realize many more things. The Japanese psyche to be most definitely intriguing to me. Therefore, I have spent much time getting to know many Japanese men and women and observing their thinking and behavior and relationships, as I'm sure they might have been doing with me, too.

In the beginning, I did believe Japanese men to be chauvinistic. I thought they were the brutal dictators and their wives nothing more than mild and meek servants. I think we are led to believe that in the West. I believed that for a good while and I still believed that on into my marriage. As I spent more time around all the Japanese women I knew, though, I found out otherwise.

As some people might not know, it's traditional for the women to take care of the finances in Japan. The husbands give the money to the wives and the wives manage it and do with it what they see fit. The husbands are often known to ask permission to use their own money to buy something. My husband has a motorcycle and a truck and he asked my permission to buy both. I was shocked that he would even ask me. He told me that if he had been married to a "regular" Japanese girl, he would've never been able to buy either one. After all, they do have a saying in Japan about as long as the husband healthy and out making money, the women are satisfied.

I got really frustrated at my husband's behavior towards our relationship after our children were born. I am one who believes that the relationship of the husband and wife needs to be nursed in order for the children to thrive. I believe keeping an active sex life is important and I believe that time spent alone with your spouse and talking about things other than children is a necessity. He once told me that after kids, those kinds of things were no longer that important. I tried to blame this entirely on him, but I honestly believe that is the way they(both men and women) think things are supposed to be after marriage and kids. After years of being accustomed to a marriage being more like a business than companionship, they don't know any different.

As for sleeping arrangements, I agree wholeheartedly that it is an independence issue, as well as a privacy issue as far as Westerners are concerned. From the very start, I put all of my children in their own room even though I breastfed for the first few months. After growing up an only child, my children's independence was/is very important to me, and that was just one of the beginning steps for them gaining their independence.

I could go on about this...but now I have to make lunch. I'll be back... :p

[jspecdan]

Wow, very interestin Kirei Na Me. Whenever my dad bought a new car, he always consulted my mother. Being a 3rd Gen J-A, my mom said "do whatever you want, it's your money. I don't care." Basically because she has no interest in what kind of car he drives. With that, he leased a BMW 5-series, then got rid of it and bought a Sabb -5.

Some of my Japanese-American/Canadian friends have parents that sleep in separate rooms, while others, like my parents, sleep together in the same bed. I dunno, I think it depends upon the people, how they were raised, and where they were raised.

As for women are to serve men as brought up, that is only somewhat true. I remember my brother and father started an arguement about this, so I left the room, knowing that I couldn't win. But my father tried explaining it to my brother that before women are businesswomen, business owners, etc, they are women. They have particular roles they should carry out when the children are born, raised and so on. My brother interpreted it as "women stay home and bake pies, men come home and eat it." Anyway, I dunno, this is gettin long and I gotta go to the dentist.

[kirei_na_me]

Originally posted by jspecdan
Wow, very interestin Kirei Na Me. Whenever my dad bought a new car, he always consulted my mother. Being a 3rd Gen J-A, my mom said "do whatever you want, it's your money. I don't care." Basically because she has no interest in what kind of car he drives.

Exactly. To me, the money he makes is his money and he should be able to do with it as he sees fit, if it is within reason, of course. He also takes care of all the bills, because he is much better organized than I am concerning finances. That is the starting point of many disagreements between my husband and me. He believes it's our money rather than his money, but I guess I just have a hard time adjusting to that. It is very hard for me to ask him for money. It has gotten better as time has progressed, but at the beginning of our marriage, it was very difficult for me to ask him for money.

About staying home, I made the decision to stay with my children because I thought it would benefit them. My mother, being a teacher for 30 years, always said that she could tell a difference between children where a mother stayed home and those that didn't. I was hoping by staying home the first 5 years or so that I could influence my children to be kindler, gentler humans. It was not because my husband insisted that I stay home. Quite the contrary. He said it was entirely up to me if I chose to work or not. Since we could live more than comfortably on his salary alone, I chose to stay home. I do now find myself feeling somewhat smothered, though. After my third son gets in preschool, I will be going back to college in order to pursue a teaching career.

[jspecdan]

About staying home, I made the decision to stay with my children because I thought it would benefit them.

For the same reasons, my mother stayed home while my brother and I were growing up.

[Dream Time]

sexless after child being born...
i think it is unhealthy for the Japanese society,
more and more girls do 'enjo kosai' and those lonely man look for them...

plus it is very boring , I think they should keep the sex life even after child being born,
loveless couple....

I've heard some Japanese men would work until midnight or something,sleep on the trains,not going home,and just go to work again the next morning

[doudesuka]

I think it's not healthy for a child to see his father not interested in their mother or the family. I know children are sensitive and can feel things early on between the parents. Like you can feel tension between two people who have been arguing.

But, here it's like the people have accepted their roles in marriages. :sad:

I am only guessing here but, since a majority of fathers have their second life outside the family home. The mothers become independent from them in sleeping arrangements.

I do want to recognize the young Japanese fathers who seem to be more family oriented. I know they are few .:happy:

[doudesuka]

Kirei na me, I let my husband take care of the finances too.
I had a hard time asking for money because it felt weird after I stopped working . But, now I don't have too much of a problem.
I agree with you a lot. :agree:

[Maciamo]

Originally posted by jspecdan
Wow, very interestin Kirei Na Me. Whenever my dad bought a new car, he always consulted my mother. Being a 3rd Gen J-A, my mom said "do whatever you want, it's your money. I don't care."

2nd or 3rd generation J-A were not brought up in Japan and therefore think mostly like the culture and people they have always known. It's nothing genetic, I assure you.


Some of my Japanese-American/Canadian friends have parents that sleep in separate rooms, while others, like my parents, sleep together in the same bed. I dunno, I think it depends upon the people, how they were raised, and where they were raised.

Again, you are not talking of people living in Japan. The US and Canada are melting pots of ethnies and cultures, which is why you find so many different way of doing things. From my European experience (in 5 countries), my impression is that couples who sleep in different rooms usually can't stand each other anymore or had a loveless marriage, which is almost frowned upon nowadays. But as in Japan so many marriage are more a business than a love story, it's normal they should sleep separate.


As for women are to serve men as brought up, that is only somewhat true.

I want to break this false image Westerners have of the "Japanese wife-servant". Whereas gender roles are clearly defined, Japanese women are far from being servants. Men work hard all day and come back home late. They don't have time or energy to cook and do housework. As women only have to care about houseworks (once children go to school, they haven't much to do all day long, but housework and cooking).

I understand how Westerners would consider unacceptable a situation where the woman is the only one to do the cleaning, washing, ironing, cooking, etc. while the man watches TV, because most Western women work, and their husband might be home at 6pm.

But if the man is home at 11pm and the woman doesn't work at all, it's not to much to expect from her to cook 1 meal and care about house chores. I actually don't know how Japanese men would cope living single by themselves. Women have the "good role" and most are happy to get married just to stop working and use their husband money for their hobbies or care about the children they had longed for.

Kirei na me has it right when she says women have decsional power on the family finances. I was surprised how my own wife turned into a meticulous accountant spontaneously and without training once we started living in Japan (or got married, as it happened at the same time). I've read and heard many times since then that virtually all Japanese woman had this "gift" for "calculation". Marriage is a real business in Japan. Fortunately my wife also believe in love marriage (she says I don't have money anyway :D ).

[Maciamo]

Originally posted by kirei_na_me
That is the starting point of many disagreements between my husband and me. He believes it's our money rather than his money, but I guess I just have a hard time adjusting to that.

I had the same problem, but in the reverse situation as I am the man. Japanese cannot conceive marriage as just a love thing where money stays separate. My wife sometimes tell me : "We are married but we still have separate bank accounts or count our money separately. What does it mean to be married then ? We could just be boyfriend-girlfriend". That's the kind of comment that infuriates me as I hear "marriage= money".

My parents have a prenuptial agreement and so did I (eventhough my wife couldn't really understand what it was about, but as it was a condition for getting married she accepted). The conception of marriage is so different in Japan and the West that it almost mean opposite things and leads to many misunderstandings. That's what I've been explaining in this thread.

I can't imagine marriage as a business in our epoch, but Japanese can't imagine it not being a business to raise children. Maybe that's why Japanese have such strong corporate loyalty. A company is like a second family ; you can't divorce it. It's not socially acceptable.

If we look deeper into Japanese culture, we realise that even words like "kyaku-san" means "client, customer" (at work) or "guest" (at home)". Japanese feel the relationship is the same. The words "family" 家族 and "house" 家 are also in direct relation in Japan. "Kazoku" (=family) literaly means "bound by the house" in kanji. Often Japanese speaking English would say things like "My house is not rich" when they mean "family", which is a proof that it is one same thing in their minds.

[Maciamo]

Originally posted by doudesuka
I think it's not healthy for a child to see his father not interested in their mother or the family.

Let's just say that Japanese have a different conception of "healthiness".


I know children are sensitive and can feel things early on between the parents. Like you can feel tension between two people who have been arguing.

Because the father comes home late, they don't have much time to meet and argue anyway. Lots of J-children rarely see their father. I know lots of J-men married with children, who go to their office even on Sundays. It's like an addiction. Japanese believe that only the mother is important for the children's emotional stability and development. If the father also has time it's good, but not indispensable.


But, here it's like the people have accepted their roles in marriages. :sad:

It used to be like that 50 years ago in Western countries. It's because we have "evolved" that it seems sad or backward for Japanese. But they seem to like it this way. Those who don't marry foreigners (but some who do also marry foreigners :blush: ).

[den4]

hey, thought I was seeing double when I saw this topic on another forum :D

interesting.... :D

although sometimes, I wonder if the relationships are really thought through in either western nations or in Japan.... :o

[kirei_na_me]

Originally posted by den4
although sometimes, I wonder if the relationships are really thought through in either western nations or in Japan.... :o

Me too, den4. Me too.

[kirei_na_me]

My husband and I had a pretty bad argument about all of this last night.

It first started when I was asking him about the other thread about carseats. He went on to say that the reason carseats were not used as much in Japan was because they were indeed expensive, but I then asked him "well, how much value do you put on your child's life?" He just kept on saying that in Japan, those seats are maybe 400 dollars and here they are 60. I tried to explain to him that they had money for other things, but not something that could save their children, but he got so extremely defensive, he couldn't agree with me that it was worth 400 dollars to have your child safe in the car. I was SO infuriated.

Anyway, then we got into the marriage issue. I asked him this: "Do you think arranged marriages better than love marriages?" His answer, yes. He thinks arranged marriages have the capability of lasting much longer than love marriages. He went on to tell me that with arranged marriages, the good is seen in a person after marriage, whereas in a love marriage, you only tend to see the bad in the person after marriage.

He also went on to tell me that maybe a lot of westerners are thinking the Japanese married couples don't like each other because it is common for the husband or wife to say they don't like one another or they don't like what one another does, but that under the surface, it's the exact opposite. He told me that people(Japanese) consider you a fool if you go around saying how much you like your spouse. Which, I guess, I can understand, since they don't get into the whole "I love you" thing, etc. like we do.

Also, he did tell me about one divorce case in which he knew the couple personally, and the father got custody of the children. I asked him why, but he didn't know. He says that happens more than one thinks over there, but I don't know. I do remember my friend was contemplating divorce with her husband(who came from a wealthy family) and she was scared that he would take her daughter away from her. So, maybe there are some instances when the father gets the children in case of divorce. Maybe the mother just hands them over to him because she doesn't want the responsibility? Maybe they prove she's unfit somehow? I don't know.

Anyway, our conversation was cut short last night, because he takes things so extremely personal and gets so defensive, that I can't really discuss things in depth with him anymore. I still have someone else I can talk to about all of it, though...

[Maciamo]

I've just asked my wife about carseats and she told me firmly that nowadays most people used them in Japan. She also tend to take such questions very personally and get angry if I criticise Japan. She sometimes says (half-joking, fortunately) that she is going to look for a Japanese husband if I make such comments.

What's funny is how opinions can vary from one person to another. I asked about 20 people if babies/children usually sleep with their parents/mother in Japan, and though 90% said yes, 1 was actually quite convinced that it was an old-fashioned system and that normally children all had their own room and bed nowadays (because she has grown up in such a family). So, I'd rather be careful before saying that Japanese do like this or like that. I always try to ask as many people from as many age, region and background as I can. That's quite easy with my job.

[Atmos_Fear]

wooow that's so educational :happy: Benkio, benkio, benkio


man sometimes i don't understad japan people. This is so wierd for me and i can't belive it at all. Man it's sounds to me that if you are a man in Japan them you are done/ dead / kaput

ok sorry if i offend some of the japan people in this forum but for me this is so stange. I can't belive that there could be a true marriage whitout love. I mean two people to live together whitout love ?? Is this possible at all ??

anyway i still love the look of the asian girls :))

[jspecdan]

It's nothing genetic, I assure you.
Oh I know. That's how 3rd Gens are. That's how they were brought up by 2nd Gens who are somewhat frugal and sparing, like parents in Japan who grew up during WW2. Basically my mom is like that because of living in america. And by that I'm not sayin it was bad or good for her.

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by Atmos_Fear
[B]ok sorry if i offend some of the japan people in this forum but for me this is so stange. I can't belive that there could be a true marriage whitout love. I mean two people to live together whitout love ?? Is this possible at all?
Because real life can get so much more complicated at times and there are various types of love for different people. My most intimate Japanese male friend is older and married for instance. Is feeling guilt for cheating on his wife a sure-fire indicatation he loves her? Even though his arrogance can make her life miserable at times (even to the point of prolonged physical illness), they don't have children and doesn't respect her intellectually ? How do those factors plus their strong and ongoing comittments together, such as hosting foreign students, compare in favor of our interests and characters being more compatible plus the sexual activity neither of us would get otherwise?
Kind of like working on a jigsaw puzzle with no photo to emulate and you're not even sure most of the time you have all the pieces. :sick:

[kirei_na_me]

I can so relate to what you're saying, Elizabeth. That's all I'll say.

[den4]

Originally posted by kirei_na_me
My husband and I had a pretty bad argument about all of this last night.

It first started when I was asking him about the other thread about carseats. He went on to say that the reason carseats were not used as much in Japan was because they were indeed expensive, but I then asked him "well, how much value do you put on your child's life?" He just kept on saying that in Japan, those seats are maybe 400 dollars and here they are 60. I tried to explain to him that they had money for other things, but not something that could save their children, but he got so extremely defensive, he couldn't agree with me that it was worth 400 dollars to have your child safe in the car. I was SO infuriated.

Anyway, then we got into the marriage issue. I asked him this: "Do you think arranged marriages better than love marriages?" His answer, yes. He thinks arranged marriages have the capability of lasting much longer than love marriages. He went on to tell me that with arranged marriages, the good is seen in a person after marriage, whereas in a love marriage, you only tend to see the bad in the person after marriage.

He also went on to tell me that maybe a lot of westerners are thinking the Japanese married couples don't like each other because it is common for the husband or wife to say they don't like one another or they don't like what one another does, but that under the surface, it's the exact opposite. He told me that people(Japanese) consider you a fool if you go around saying how much you like your spouse. Which, I guess, I can understand, since they don't get into the whole "I love you" thing, etc. like we do.

Also, he did tell me about one divorce case in which he knew the couple personally, and the father got custody of the children. I asked him why, but he didn't know. He says that happens more than one thinks over there, but I don't know. I do remember my friend was contemplating divorce with her husband(who came from a wealthy family) and she was scared that he would take her daughter away from her. So, maybe there are some instances when the father gets the children in case of divorce. Maybe the mother just hands them over to him because she doesn't want the responsibility? Maybe they prove she's unfit somehow? I don't know.

Anyway, our conversation was cut short last night, because he takes things so extremely personal and gets so defensive, that I can't really discuss things in depth with him anymore. I still have someone else I can talk to about all of it, though...

To each their own.
My better half dislikes the way things are done in Japan, although she also finds stupidity abounds in the US as well. Since she was brought up under the J-way, and has lived in the US and in other countries, her view is that no country has a monopoly on foolishness....which is my view as well.

People will take offense or not depending upon their sensitivity level...for those that have less experience, I've noticed, of how others live outside their immediate sphere of influence, the greater their lack of understanding and willingness to compromise in their viewpoints (the exceptions are those with mental disorders or actual stubbornness that kind of borders on obsessional behavior, if it isn't actually the latter).

I know my views do tend to offend some, since I've pissed off a number of folks, either through ignorance or out of spite (yes, I'm no saint, nor do I pretend to be one)...however, if a person cannot talk about a topic without getting all weirded out and bent out of shape, then I'm afraid the person has other issues that are in the background, perhaps in denial, that they need to deal with at some point in the future, or it will continue to be one of the main reasons they continue to get bent out of shape, unabated, whenever the subject is brought up....

feel sorry for your situation..know a lot of people who can't talk with their spouses because one or the other or both are real blockheads trying to fit in a round hole... :(

[kirei_na_me]

Originally posted by den4
however, if a person cannot talk about a topic without getting all weirded out and bent out of shape, then I'm afraid the person has other issues that are in the background, perhaps in denial, that they need to deal with at some point in the future, or it will continue to be one of the main reasons they continue to get bent out of shape, unabated, whenever the subject is brought up....

I think so too. I like to feel I can talk about things without taking it too personal. Sometimes, I know I can take things personally, but I try my darndest not to do that. But in the case of my husband, he gets extremely bent out of shape and defensive. I tend to think he has some issues, but if I ever try to question him as to what they are, he...yes, gets very defensive.

Sometimes, I think the bottling up of emotions is not so good. I think, generally speaking, it does more harm than good to let stuff sit inside and fester. He has that problem, as do many other Japanese people(maybe Japanese people in general) I know do. Something is really eating away at him deep down, I believe, but it's not going to get out easily.

With me, it's like little tremors all the time, whereas with him, you get the huge mega earthquake.

[den4]

heh...
start putting up a sign every time he tremors, then, and rate it based upon severity....maybe he'll get the point....eventually.... :D

[Atmos_Fear]

man all this whit the relationships and marriage in japan is a sad story . But there are some benefits that's for shure. I see that they are alright whit this so they didn't want to change it.

[Elizabeth]

Learning the language helps a lot as well in being able to broach these sorts of sensitive subjects from a more neutral standpoint by giving everyone permission to let go a little more, particularly if they don't suspect how much is being understood or of any ulterior motives. And there are lots of variations on the theme. You can always make goofy little mistakes to put everyone at ease, ask them to translate back into English as a kind of game, use their examples as segues into discussions of grammar, etc.
Of course it isn't going to work for everyone or even very well through email.....although nothing else I've tried seems to either.
:bawling:

[kirei_na_me]

You can always make goofy little mistakes to put everyone at ease, ask them to translate back into English as a kind of game, use their examples as segues into discussions of grammar, etc.

True. I learned this a long time ago, and it works to an extent. With some people, though, they just aren't going to budge no matter what you do. Especially when they have no sense of humor at all about anything.

Of course it isn't going to work for everyone or even very well through email.....although nothing else I've tried seems to either.

E-mail is definitely tough. It's hard enough when two people that have the same native language try to communicate through e-mail, much less two people whose native languages and ways of communicating(what words and wording are used)--period--are very different. The phone helps somewhat, because you can at least hear emotion in the voice, but it's still very difficult. Believe me, I too know.

I was going to say in person was the best way to convey whatever messages, but I could question that when Westerners/Japanese are concerned, because so much emphasis is put in facial expression. One wrong eyebrow move, and you're in trouble.... :o

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by kirei_na_me
True. I learned this a long time ago, and it works to an extent. With some people, though, they just aren't going to budge no matter what you do. Especially when they have no sense of humor at all about anything.

E-mail is definitely tough. It's hard enough when two people that have the same native language try to communicate through e-mail, much less two people whose native languages and ways of communicating(what words and wording are used)--period--are very different. The phone helps somewhat, because you can at least hear emotion in the voice, but it's still very difficult. Believe me, I too know.
I guess the notorious Japanese inferiority complex is known for a good reason, although outside my teachers I've yet to have the pleasure of speaking to someone completely humorless. Most Japanese would probably love the emoticons we're able to use here.....if only they could be an electronic substitute for our natural expressiveness. :p

[Erik]

This may be off topic a little but after reading all this, this reminds me of the TV sitcom, Married with Children! lol

[kirei_na_me]

Good observation, Erik! :p

[Maciamo]

Originally posted by Elizabeth
Most Japanese would probably love the emoticons we're able to use here.....

Which emoticons are you talking about ? Emails, forums (this forum uses "kaos" which are Japanese emoticons), mobile phones ? I don't know in the States, but Japanese "keitai" have hundreds of colourful emoticons or little pictures to choose from.

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by kirei_na_me
[B]He also went on to tell me that maybe a lot of westerners are thinking the Japanese married couples don't like each other because it is common for the husband or wife to say they don't like one another or they don't like what one another does, but that under the surface, it's the exact opposite.
This is a really interesting and curious sort of phenomenon which probably does explain to some degree the strong stereotypes of Japanese men as misogenistic and women as unintellectual wimpering saps. Which I've seen played out more in crude body language and dirty looks :blush: than actual understanding. So......asked some friends in the states and Japan more about their own experiences, but haven't heard back anything yet.

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by Maciamo
Which emoticons are you talking about ? Emails, forums (this forum uses "kaos" which are Japanese emoticons), mobile phones ? I don't know in the States, but Japanese "keitai" have hundreds of colourful emoticons or little pictures to choose from.
Is it "kaosu" ? For face and something else? I just meant being able to embed them in standard excite or outlook mail messages from the US. Since I'm only aware of maybe three or four postable kaos using an html (rich text?) formating .

[neko_girl22]

to some degree I can understand what you mean Kirei-na-me, when you say your husband takes things personal during arguments -mine too! Sometimes I feel like I am hitting my head on a brick wall and end up backing down and smoothing things out myself because it seems he never will. We tend not to argue too much thankfully though.
Although..... we have only been married for 11 months - together for 3 years.
he treats me really well - nothing at all like the stereotypes of J-men.
we have to put soo much effort into constant clear communication, so there's not too many misunderstandings - as I can't speak much Japanese and his English is not yet perfect. Communication is so important in marriage - especially international ones!

[kirei_na_me]

Originally posted by Elizabeth
This is a really interesting and curious sort of phenomenon which probably does explain to some degree the strong stereotypes of Japanese men as misogenistic and women as unintellectual wimpering saps. Which I've seen played out more in crude body language and dirty looks :blush: than actual understanding. So......asked some friends in the states and Japan more about their own experiences, but haven't heard back anything yet.

You see, this goes along with my theory that, unfortunately, some Japanese people can be seen as so unbelievably phony and fake and superficial. If they go around acting like one thing but meaning something else, it's hard for me to think otherwise sometimes. It's the whole yes means no/no means yes and the whole issue of having to be able to read minds instead of actually talking about something. It's the land of contradiction...

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by kirei_na_me
You see, this goes along with my theory that, unfortunately, some Japanese people can be seen as so unbelievably phony and fake and superficial. If they go around acting like one thing but meaning something else, it's hard for me to think otherwise sometimes. It's the whole yes means no/no means yes and the whole issue of having to be able to read minds instead of actually talking about something. It's the land of contradiction...
Yeah, I can really sympathize with you on this as well, Rachel. It is impossible sometimes to tell how much of this "fakeness" is just a cultural artifact or whether the people really are as superficial and materialistic as they might want to appear. Although my case is a bit unusual since I can almost always tell what my boyfriend is feeling from the terribly infectious, boyish, even cute side to his personality which has trouble holding anything back. Often without the thoughtfulness or kindness of other Japanese men I've known, though, so there's bound to be a tradeoff of some kind. And without meaning to pry or anything, I'm just curious how much of these cultural logjams you were aware of before getting into this situation?

[kirei_na_me]

Ah, good question. I'll be back to post the answer later. No, you're not prying at all... ;)

Had more time than I thought...

Anyway, as I said in my earlier post, I didn't know much about Japanese culture before I met my husband. I did think that Japanese men were oppresive towards women and I thought they were chauvinistic, but my husband was completely different from that image when I met him.

Before we were married, he was extremely kind, thoughtful, and very open affectionately. He would openly show his affection in public and even loved to do so since he wasn't really able to do so back in Japan. He would act giddy around me and do all kinds of things that told me that he cared about me. Very charming and romantic and the main thing about him was that he was so understanding about everything, it seemed. I would say he remained this way until after our second child was born. Then, it seemed he kicked into straight-laced, hyper-responsible mode. I believe Japanese men to be responsible to a fault. He was like a completely different person.

I always said that I would never change after marriage, and I honestly believe I've held to that. I still try to joke and have fun and try to keep myself in shape, I try to get my mom to take the kids sometimes so that we can go out, but he really doesn't understand that. It is true that he did tell me a couple years back that I was selfish for wanting to have time for myself or whatever and he did say that after marriage and kids, the "fun"(in particular sex) was supposed to die down. I think it's just the image they have of what marriage is supposed to be like. I think in stereotypical Japanese minds, they think that the mother is supposed to(or willingly just do so without any hesitation) sacrifice her life for her children. My children mean a lot to me, but as I said before, I also believe the relationship between husband and wife is just as important. I just don't think that's a concept they can grasp. I really don't.

It's not that he's a bad person. He's just got ways that most of us--including myself--are not accustomed to. He takes care our family and makes sure we have everything we need--or want, for that matter, but I think sometimes, the Japanese father can get a little too hung up on being responsible.

Maybe I'll PM you sometime, Elizabeth, with something that I think you might be able to understand. Something that doesn't have a place on this forum... ;)

[den4]

more of a pride issue, methinks....
have relatives in J-land that are like that...I don't think it's so much a "responsibility" issue than a pride issue....or a weirded out form of a fair weather friend syndrome taken on a J-version as far as your "fakeness" issues that you've noticed...

having had the misfortune of having to listen to a bunch of J-women talk about their husbands...yakyakyak...several times, you can break those into two groups, basically: those that have been spoiled by their parents, friends, social status, etc., and those that are more down-to-earth and can understand what the average person is going through....there is also a lot of folks in denial, too, because they can't deal with the fact that their social-economical world has gone to hell over the last decade or two.....and there is also a lot of folks who lack experience to make any educated comments...thus the "fakery" you mentioned....chances are they know nothing, so that's the superficial aspects you see....this doesn't explain everything, but it does offer some observations... :D

but what do I know...? :D

[neko_girl22]

it's so sad you guys have all had negative experiences!
I'm not saying life with my J-man is smooth sailing but.... I've yet to experience any cultural difference that I can seriously complain about. There are things that annoy me, but we seem to work around them.

My husband's best friend said something really sweet last time I met him - that his relationship with his wife is the most important thing. Wife first, daughter second. Having a strong and loving relationship with his wife gives his daughter a happy family to grow up in. I think this is a great attitude!

.....perhaps we shouldn't confuse personality traits with cultural differences. Or just "MEN" things that are plain annoying.:p

[neko_girl22]

you can break those into two groups, basically: those that have been spoiled by their parents, friends, social status, etc.,

that's a good point. Weak or strange Japanese men I've met do seem to be in this bracket. (Mummy's boys across the world...)

Maybe my husband is an eccentric in Japan!
-My husband was basically left to fend for himself when he was 15 after his Mother died and Father withdrew into himself - cooking, cleaning etc ..... therefore he helps me with this and doesn't expect me to mother him....

-He's not a typical salary man - he hates office jobs even though they are better money ..... I'm so glad I don't have a husband who comes home at 10pm everynight!

I'm not making much sense I know, and I'm not bragging, just I'm trying to figure out if my hubby is the same underneath or can you get exceptions to the rule........

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by nzueda
that's a good point. Weak or strange Japanese men I've met do seem to be in this bracket. (Mummy's boys across the world...)
I think too there is a huge disconnect in terms of their socialization for a huge swath of Japanese kids, especially only children, who are spoiled at home -- basically allowed to run the house in many cases I've seen -- but still forced to conform to very strict group rules at school and later work. Probably where a lot of bullying and juvenile crime and other psychological problems come from as well. I am sympathetic but not to the point of wanting to marry one for sure ;).

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by nzueda
it's so sad you guys have all had negative experiences!
I'm not saying life with my J-man is smooth sailing but.... I've yet to experience any cultural difference that I can seriously complain about. There are things that annoy me, but we seem to work around them.
It is very, very sad.....and I know not having children myself I absolutely couldn't take the predictibility and sameness of an uber-responsible, proud, straight-laced man (almost my exact opposite) so in a way I do have to admire anyone who sticks with it. And of course, nzueda, there are all kinds of funny and sweet J-men out there with great minds and interesting opinions to talk with. I even know one or two of them personally as a matter of fact. ;)

[den4]

actually, I wasn't specifying a specific gender....both men and women can fall into those categories, or into some other group....not because I like categorizing people, but because they try so hard to fit into a category all by themselves.....sometimes without even realizing it, I'm sure... :D

[mdchachi]

They should not forget that on top of this it is normal in Japan for a father to have a bath with his children, even 20 year-old girls !

I got into this thread late but I was just wondering, how many people in your sample really said that they bathed with their dad into their teen years and beyond?!

[neko_girl22]

I asked hubby and he said normally Father and daughter bathe together until 8 or 9 but he has heard of an idol that is about 19 and says she still bathes with her Father. So I guess there are some families that do that, but they would be in the minority.

[mdchachi]

Yes, of course whole families might jump in the family onsen or something. But I think it's highly unusual for teen-aged daughters to bathe with their dads at home. The whole point of bathing with kids is to help them bathe. Once they reach a certain age, they can wash themselves.

[Maciamo]

Those who have seen "My Neighbour Totoro" will remember that the 2 girls (the older is about 12) bathe with their dad. As it's one of the most popular anime in Japan and doesn't seem to shock anyone, it's because Japanese find it perfectly normal. Not so long ago, public baths and onsen were all unisex. There are still some that do not separate men and women, but thery are getting rarer as Japan is Westernizing and Americanizing itself.

I don't think men have any dirty thoughts at all when they bathe with their daughters. Japanese men very often do not even consider their own wives as a normal woman with whom to have sex once she becomes a mother. On the other hand, it's more acceptable for Japanese men to look for other women after that justly because the new mother doesn't care about sex anymore. It's a fundamental cultural difference.

[Enfour]

Ahem... I think the main issue with the bathing question is that while families all use the same bath water, it is NOT because they are all jumping in the bath together at the same time.

Yes fathers and daughter use the same bathwater. The bath is filled at around 6pm and it stays in the bath until all the family have had their baths - usually IN TURNS.

The exception is when there are small children involved and the mother goes into supervise bath times.

Most fathers don't get home from work before their children have gone to bed. Most fathers would get home after 11pm on a weeknight.

Not many families have sento-sized baths in their houses and it is very difficult to fit more than one adult in a unit bath.

Onsens are a completely different matter and have been discussed already.

[crcjapanguy]

Since the discussion here concerns marriage in Japan, I feel compelled to post a link to the following site:

http://www.crnjapan.com

This is a MUST READ site before marriage to, having children with, or divorce from a Japanese citizen. Take care out there....

[neko_girl22]

Ahem... I think the main issue with the bathing question is that while families all use the same bath water, it is NOT because they are all jumping in the bath together at the same time.

Yes fathers and daughter use the same bathwater. The bath is filled at around 6pm and it stays in the bath until all the family have had their baths - usually IN TURNS.

Using the same bath water grosses you out? It might sound terrible but really it's not that bad. Because they do all there scrubbing and washing outside the bath , the bath water is used only to relax in - just like an onsen.
I once had the last bath while staying with a family of 5. The water was fine!
(btw, as the guest I would normally bathe first, but I came home late.)

[Lina Inverse]

I'll have to say that the Japanese system makes perfect sense to me :haihai:
Should I ever marry, it will be for the sole purpose of having children.
I absolutely can't imagine to restrict my love to a single person for my entire life :mad:

[ippolito]

We normally treat women with sentiments and we (italians) are genarally romantic
of course not all we also have bad guys.....but I know many cases thet jp an kr
girls that came here and never go back home....and married or have a realtions with italians......we love women and we love to that they feel women....in many ways

I had in the past some relations with jp girls i found them very kind and lovely
sometime a little cold as never know what they are thinking .....
meawhile i was an open book.....for them......this was a point for them ....
have a good day all.....
Ippolito

[cristiand]

Right Ippolito, that s why many jp girls dream of an european man, look for him and find him.
It like a kind of reverse Veni Vidi Vici of your ancient co-citizen.
The only thing we have to do is to generalize millions and millions of couples, of minds of experiences in a simple easy reading receipt.
Japanese are so and so that s why so and so
Caucasian are so and so and so and testosterone high and testosterone low.
It s so difficult to understand the person we share our life with, to understand ourselves and we pretend to understand entire countries mentalities.
mmmm very difficult.....
I have a relation with a japanese woman and i agree with some of the things that have been written here but i saw so many radical differences

[Gaki]

The only thing i know that's different is about "Western" and Chinese weddings, where "Western" marriages the bride's parents pays for the wedding (from what i've heard) and in Chinese Wedding the groom tends to pay everything and usually gives lucky money to the bride's parents as well.

[kirei_na_me]

Same in Japan. I guess that was something else they got from China? I know in Japan, the groom's parents are also supposed to pay for the wedding and give money to the bride's family.

[Maciamo]

The only thing i know that's different is about "Western" and Chinese weddings, where "Western" marriages the bride's parents pays for the wedding (from what i've heard) and in Chinese Wedding the groom tends to pay everything and usually gives lucky money to the bride's parents as well.

I am sorry, but it seems a bit hasty to say "Western countries" here. Traditionally it is like that in England (even though expenses tend to be divided between both parties nowadays), but it is not the case in Belgium and possibly France and other countries. So that could just be in English-speaking countries, and not even in all cases.

Same in Japan. I guess that was something else they got from China? I know in Japan, the groom's parents are also supposed to pay for the wedding and give money to the bride's family.

I have never heard about that. Usually nowadays, the guests pay everything as they have to pay a fixed amount of money (usually 10.000 to 30.000yen in Tokyo, depending on the formality of the party, but I heard it could be over 100.000yen in some regions). That replaces the gift and pays for all the wedding's expenses.

[kirei_na_me]

I have never heard about that. Usually nowadays, the guests pay everything as they have to pay a fixed amount of money (usually 10.000 to 30.000yen in Tokyo, depending on the formality of the party, but I heard it could be over 100.000yen in some regions). That replaces the gift and pays for all the wedding's expenses.

Oh, wow. That's interesting, indeed. I guess it's getting more modernized/progressive(don't know what term is best?) now? In Tokyo, anyway? Every Japanese person I've ever known has told me about the groom's family paying for the wedding and giving a gift of money to the bride's family. Of course, most all the Japanese people I've known are from the country(Gifu area) and tend to be a little more traditional and conservative than people I've met who were from Tokyo.

When my best friend got married, her husband's family gave her family enough money that they were able to take a 2 month long trip to S. Korea, Hong Kong, Hawaii, etc. They didn't waste any time. They left the same time the newlyweds left for their honeymoon... :p

[jolan]

Very interesting topic, thanks everybody. I don't have anything to say... In my opinion, I would never marry a Japanese girl simply because I would never marry someone. I don't believe in mariage, Asian or Western...

But who knows? I'm very influencable.... Well I think before saying yes, I'd just check i'm not in Nagoya lol!

[kirei_na_me]

Good thinking, jolan. My advice to anyone single: Never get married! :p

[dreamer]

Lol good advice :D
A friend of mine got married and he's hell regretting it now :D

[ippolito]

Well in Itay we have the presents list...the couple gives a list to a big shop
of presents that could be useful....eg. color tv with dvd washer etc....
this to avoid to receive like in the past the same presents twice or 3 times
but we still accept the the "envelope" with money inside....
normally the couple pays for the lunch church flowers etc....if both work
and are in the position to spend some money ...here we do not have the habitude to rent marriage dresses....we buy.....and remain with us all the life...
meanwhile parentes of both help to buy a house...but in the recent years there are many young couples that leave in parents house as cannot buy or rent an house...and here no many children like in the past......we are now at grow 0 the number of new babies is the same of deaths....is not very positive......sign.....
hello to all
Ippolito

[Gaki]

I am sorry, but it seems a bit hasty to say "Western countries" here. Traditionally it is like that in England (even though expenses tend to be divided between both parties nowadays), but it is not the case in Belgium and possibly France and other countries. So that could just be in English-speaking countries, and not even in all cases.

That's why i put Western in "..." marks... (-_-' )

I never said ALL WESTERN COUNTRIES, in fact i never used the word "countries". :okashii:

[ippolito]

I am agree with Gaki in western there are so many differences between our life
and us or Beligium or Danimark etc.....probably it is between Japan and Thailand or
Philippines....
Ippolito

[yimija]

Good thinking, jolan. My advice to anyone single: Never get married! :p

well, it seems so, anyway.
With my tremedous experience (?!?!?) I can't be of any help excepted with the saying of a well known chinese philosopher : don't get into easythings, they usually are the hardest one to come out of...
good luck anyway.

to jolan :
you said : In my opinion, I would never marry a Japanese girl simply because I would never marry someone. I don't believe in mariage, Asian or Western...

you never know, one of those marvelouse little japanese doll (a real one, I mean) could well make you change your mind, all right. It's not a shame, but think twice and give her all your love anyway, even if you don't get married.

[kirei_na_me]

well, it seems so, anyway.
With my tremedous experience (?!?!?) I can't be of any help excepted with the saying of a well known chinese philosopher : don't get into easythings, they usually are the hardest one to come out of...
good luck anyway.

And it is so true...*sigh*

[ippolito]

To jolan

About marriage....I had 2 wife........and long stories...
I am agree to be free....but now perhaps you are young when you will older
perhpas you will need to stop and have only one woman near you...expecially in difficolt moments...
But anyone has his experiences positive and negative..
Do not look only on exterior and phisical aspect perhaps a nice gentle japanese
woman or korean could give you much more that a wonderful western woman
is the inside the most important thing..not only externally.....
i had so many problems with some italian nice girls that you cannot image
and receive love and kindness from oriental girls (Japan and Korea)
But everybody has his point of view about this agroment.....depence of the
exepriences
bye
Ippolito

[yimija]

[QUOTE=ippolito]To jolan

About marriage....I had 2 wife........and long stories...
I am agree to be free....but now perhaps you are young when you will older
perhpas you will need to stop and have only one woman near you...expecially in difficolt moments...
But anyone has his experiences positive and negative..
Do not look only on exterior and phisical aspect perhaps a nice gentle japanese
woman or korean could give you much more that a wonderful western woman
is the inside the most important thing..not only externally.....
i had so many problems with some italian nice girls that you cannot image
and receive love and kindness from oriental girls (Japan and Korea)
But everybody has his point of view about this agroment.....depence of the
exepriences

I tend to agree with you, I had some problems with an italian girl, too. But 2 marriage Ippolito ? Your are like Blue Beard, he ??? LOL, No the number is not important, as long as you loved them, even if it turned out the "wrong way".
As for your age, dont tell me you are over 80 ? That's old. If you are less than 80, then you are still young. No worries,like Einstein used to say, time is just an illusion... But I hope you are happy now with your korean wife (is she Nｰ 3, you monster ????) re-LOL

[jolan]

I meaned I have a (non japanese)girl friend, I don't know yet if we can plan something, but I'm sure I don't want to be married. That doesn't mean I don't want to live with someone one day or that I don't want to have child. No I think marriage is something you have to believe in, something that mean something for you. For me, it doesn't mean anything else that law obligation, society pressure, non-thinking-and-doing-it-the-common-way. I don't want to feel oppressed by the surrounding society, that because I'm married I should do things like this and not like this. You may think I act like a teenager rebelling himself against society and so on, but this is not the case. My background, my education have been building as it does happen foe everybody on earth, a certain way of thinking, a system of value which I tend to refer to. According to mine, marriage means strictly nothing. Hopefully my girlfriend thinks the same!
My parents aren't married, and they haven't face any kind of matter (except me, of course!) so far.

[ippolito]

No i am 53 not so old as you wrote...so you had problems with an italian girl too i supposed you were a girl....
anyway the prolems are not finished....it is a long story not for a forum..
i
so how was the italian girl? She was nice? [
bye bye
Ippolito san




QUOTE=yimija]To jolan

About marriage....I had 2 wife........and long stories...
I am agree to be free....but now perhaps you are young when you will older
perhpas you will need to stop and have only one woman near you...expecially in difficolt moments...
But anyone has his experiences positive and negative..
Do not look only on exterior and phisical aspect perhaps a nice gentle japanese
woman or korean could give you much more that a wonderful western woman
is the inside the most important thing..not only externally.....
i had so many problems with some italian nice girls that you cannot image
and receive love and kindness from oriental girls (Japan and Korea)
But everybody has his point of view about this agroment.....depence of the
exepriences

I tend to agree with you, I had some problems with an italian girl, too. But 2 marriage Ippolito ? Your are like Blue Beard, he ??? LOL, No the number is not important, as long as you loved them, even if it turned out the "wrong way".
As for your age, dont tell me you are over 80 ? That's old. If you are less than 80, then you are still young. No worries,like Einstein used to say, time is just an illusion... But I hope you are happy now with your korean wife (is she Nｰ 3, you monster ????) re-LOL

[Golgo_13]

Using the same bath water grosses you out? It might sound terrible but really it's not that bad. Because they do all there scrubbing and washing outside the bath , the bath water is used only to relax in - just like an onsen.
I once had the last bath while staying with a family of 5. The water was fine!
(btw, as the guest I would normally bathe first, but I came home late.)

Just imagine the monthly water bill if you had to fill the tub 5 times each night!

[yimija]

Just imagine the monthly water bill if you had to fill the tub 5 times each night!

take a shower, two by two. it'll save water, soap and time...

[kirei_na_me]

take a shower, two by two. it'll save water, soap and time...

That sounds good to me...hehe

I still love my baths, though. I wish I had a huge tub... :blush:

[aaronmcgrath]

all you people keep talking about the differences between the two (westerners japanese). there might be many differences in culture, but there is one common reason why two people stay together...love
Marriage is just a document. I could buy my girlfriend a ring and live with her and stay in her bed forever. Its not the same as marriage?

[yimija]

all you people keep talking about the differences between the two (westerners japanese). there might be many differences in culture, but there is one common reason why two people stay together...love
Marriage is just a document. I could buy my girlfriend a ring and live with her and stay in her bed forever. Its not the same as marriage?

Yes, you do that, buy her a ring, but try to get OUT of her bed from time to time, there is a little housekeeping to be done outside !!!!!
lol.
but of course, I think you are basically right !!!

That sounds good to me...hehe

I still love my baths, though. I wish I had a huge tub... :blush:

Not only it sounds good but I assure you it feels good, too !!!

Never tryied ?? if not, make the proposal to dear hubby (once the kids are with grand'ma... mainly because of the "splashing around", we dont want the little marvels to be drowned....).

As for me (and that will NOT interrest anyone) I have never taken a bath in a bathtub in all my life (that I can remember) but only shower and that at least twice a day (yes, yes, I smell OK).

No i am 53 not so old as you wrote...so you had problems with an italian girl too i supposed you were a girl....
anyway the prolems are not finished....it is a long story not for a forum..
i
so how was the italian girl? She was nice? [
bye bye
Ippolito san

QUOTE=yimija]

Yes Ippolito san you're 1'000'000 times right :
I am a girl, and yes I had problems with a girl .

Is there anything that does'nt tally ? You know ? a woman can love another woman. It does happen, and that is the story of my life...

As for the Italian girl, she was an adorable Venezian woman. Her big problem was (still is probably) that she wanted too many things that <i could not / would not give her. You see, nothing so extraordinary ! Have a beautifull week Ipolito, take care of my sister, please and look well after yourself, too.

[ippolito]

Well I can image but cannot understand what could be the feeling btwn 2 girls
as i never loved a man only girls and women....
I have been always actracted by 2 girls love....but not as passive watcher...
but would like to partecipate all 3....do you think is strange?
sayonara

[yimija]

Well I can image but cannot understand what could be the feeling btwn 2 girls
as i never loved a man only girls and women....
I have been always actracted by 2 girls love....but not as passive watcher...
but would like to partecipate all 3....do you think is strange?
sayonara

Hello,
well I have never ever had experience with a man, of course, but I know and understand what love can do to two human beings. So it should not be too difficult for you to understand what love can do between 2 men or 2 women.

As for your envy to make it at 3, you are like all the men I know : 2 girls and you in the middle, no ? Try the other way : 2 men and your little woman in the middle. Would you appreciate ?

Now you can tell if it's stange or not. It all comes down to one thing : what's going on in your head. Then, once you know that, you can decide wether you are strange or not...

have a good week, Ippolito san

[ippolito]

so you never have relations with a man...perhaps you never need him...
I respect your choice...you should have your reasons...
i do not find strange a love between 2 women or men but i perefer old style...
with a woman.....women are sweeter than men in this...so not rude....as 2 men could be with a woman.
i was talking to stay with 2 girls that love eachother...as i never saw this
this does not mean that i will do....it was just a desire of something to discover.
my little woman as you say would never accept that situation....
about your love in Venezia I saw there a lot of very nice girls....
so you have been in Toscana did you tried steak fiorentina?
I also like grappa and red wine but cannot drink anymore for high blood preassure
In Toscana is possible to find a very good cuisine...
one question do you live in Japan?
have a nice day
We write many things.....but the reality is different sometimes.....

[yimija]

so you never have relations with a man...perhaps you never need him...
I respect your choice...you should have your reasons...

Dear Ippolito, thank you for your respect, I do appreciate and also, I DO have good reason : I'm born like that, Thank you to whoever is the donator of such a great present. I would never change anything,n ot a single thing.

i do not find strange a love between 2 women or men but i perefer old style...
with a woman.....women are sweeter than men in this...so not rude....as 2 men could be with a woman.
i was talking to stay with 2 girls that love eachother...as i never saw this
this does not mean that i will do....it was just a desire of something to discover.my little woman as you say would never accept that situation....

I hope you'll find peace of mind about all that. It's a good experience to come...

about your love in Venezia I saw there a lot of very nice girls....
so you have been in Toscana did you tried steak fiorentina?
I also like grappa and red wine but cannot drink anymore for high blood preassure
In Toscana is possible to find a very good cuisine...
one question do you live in Japan?
have a nice day
We write many things.....but the reality is different sometimes.....

I'm not sure about the steak fiorentina, it's possible, I might be a little confused with all the food I allread had in Italy... LOL.

Well, no I dont live in Japan, I'm a lot closer to you than you think. I "live" in Geneva (I say live because it's where I have an appartment,) but my work take me away most of the time and when I have holidays... I'll go somewhere else... But Venezia is only 5 hours drive from Venezia...

[aaronmcgrath]

dude....just take it easy. dont get so excited.
Anyway dont you think it should be one and one...i dont have a problem with MM or FF relationships or whatever.
But with 3 people thats bad. i know i am just another ****** who still believes in love...but didnt you ever think you would have soulmate who would be the only one you are ever with?

[yimija]

dude....just take it easy. dont get so excited.
Anyway dont you think it should be one and one...i dont have a problem with MM or FF relationships or whatever.
But with 3 people thats bad. i know i am just another ****** who still believes in love...but didnt you ever think you would have soulmate who would be the only one you are ever with?

Don't calll Ippolito san dude, mate, it ain't nice, and it's a nice & respectable forum here. From one aussie to another one.

And as long as you are not within the "3 people that's bad", everybody has the right to do what he/she/they want in their home. Of course I understand very well that you do not like it that way. But you are still young and you might well change your mind later, and there will be nothing wrong with that either.

So you see, life is simple and pleasant. Goodday, mate !

[kirei_na_me]

As far as I'm concerned, one on one is the best way to go, whether it's male or female.

Anyway...back to our regularly scheduled program... :p

[Golgo_13]

take a shower, two by two. it'll save water, soap and time...

What happens if one drops the soap? :D

[yimija]

What happens if one drops the soap? :D
whatever must happend will happend, anyway, so what's the worry ?
but, if you are affraid, you can take a bath (two by two, too)
if not, dont choose any of the two solutions (not really recomended unless you live in the Taklamakan desert - where you'll never find a shower or an onse, anyway)

[Golgo_13]

whatever must happend will happend, anyway, so what's the worry ?


You wouldn't be saying that if you were the one bending over ! :D :D

[yimija]

You wouldn't be saying that if you were the one bending over ! :D :D

well, it will mainly depend on a lot of things, but since I only take showers with someone I know extremely well, I would probably still say that...

Do you take showers with strangers ??? LOL !!!!! Then your point of view is interesting, of course...

[ippolito]

Well ono to one of course is the best opposite sex.....
But i have done many experiences with girls and woman
specially with orientals...
what I wrote as i am very curious....and as jimijia wrote (i am agree with her)
in a house we are free if the other girl or gilrs is in harmomy....and not forced.
but I did never tried ....it was only a shadow dream...perhaps it willl remain so.



dude....just take it easy. dont get so excited.
Anyway dont you think it should be one and one...i dont have a problem with MM or FF relationships or whatever.
But with 3 people thats bad. i know i am just another ****** who still believes in love...but didnt you ever think you would have soulmate who would be the only one you are ever with?

[gokarosama]

I wonder if I'm alone in thinking the first post here is an amalgam of prevailing stereotypes and cannot in any way be applied accurately to individual couples. In other words, as they say here, "case by case"...

?

[Maciamo]

I wonder if I'm alone in thinking the first post here is an amalgam of prevailing stereotypes and cannot in any way be applied accurately to individual couples. In other words, as they say here, "case by case"...

Well, that seems pretty obvious that we can never talk for everybody, just the most representative part of the population (that is, the major tendency found in a particulat social group, here the Japanese and Westerners).

[Maciamo]

I have split the discussion about India/Bangladesh started by Rayc here (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15200)

[misa.j]

I have been reading this thread lately since it was brought up again, have noticed the topic has been shifting to all kinds of directions, and it's very interesting.

It seems to me that a religion or one's belief take a huge part of decision making such as marriage, for some people. I'm very new to this idea and kind of makes me wonder if having different religions interferes a relationship in anyway.

Another thing I thought about is the reason why some Japanese men seem rather family oriented and serious than affectionate and romantic might be related to him being the oldest son in the family.

It seems like a lot of Japanese still think that the oldest child is supposed to be resposible for his/her parents and their own family, but it is indeed sad that some of them lose interests in maintaining other importances.

[Mars Man]

This subject, in a lot of ways has been on my working desk for the past three years, and it is this very subject which brought me to the forum in the first place--marriage/divorce in Jpn.

As so often these days (I'm still new) I'm getting in on the end of the line, kind of. Maciamo, I think the original write-up is well done, plenty researched out, and pretty much gets all the facts right. Nice job! Kirei na me, I will jump up and down and shout it from the Tokyo tower--you've gotta really milk that cow! All the people and sites and such dealing with marriage/relationships/sex/love say that over and over again. I'm sure you know the likes of 'men from Mars, women from Venus' or the books by the Pease's. The brain people are saying it too. The Anatomy of Love is a good book too. SO... yes the love cocktail will only last at most some 18 months, long enough to have bred and developed some feeling of being used to the partner before that 'wild oats' sower would be on his way again, and so you've got to rekindle that hormonal flow with memories--they carry strong emotion kickers-in.

With all the gender awareness coming out of the states, I hope it will be sooner than later that it really starts getting into society here in Japan. I think a well-balance sex education program would really help in developing the love marriagae concept here. (I'm not saying it needs to be replaced, there are different strokes for different folks--although all the housewives I've talked to on this subject who had done that expressed an emptiness now, after the children had grown up. That may be one major cause in the 'older divorcee' problem that's still growing, it seems.

I'll get back with some good sites and stuff. I've got one good tutorial about schemas for female/male 'roles' which society unconsciously pressures us into. I've gotta go to bed now. (Oh, and my Japanese wife and I don't do it the Japanese way with the money, but we both report to each other, and we both share and keep open minds as oft as possible. GOOD NIGHT, my bride of youth (now who said I was old) is waiting !! (yeah, Mars Man, only in your dreams!)

[-Rudel-]

Posted By: Maciamo

...That doesn't mean Japanese women cheat more, but lots of them certainly consider money as more important than love or sex (which I find very saddening)....

I never want to cheat on my wife, considering I go by western standards. My wife tells me that being together is more important than money. It's amazing. I never heard anyone talk like that. Especially since I worry about money all the time. I just want the best for her. Just my 2 cents :-)

[Keoland]

I once had the last bath while staying with a family of 5. The water was fine!
(btw, as the guest I would normally bathe first, but I came home late.)

And you got to use the water last? And liked it? It's usually quite cold by then... which I suppose is why the father always gets to go last (men suffer...)

Anyway, I'm glad someone pointed out that 'taking a bath' in Japan isn't the same thing as in the West, and that in a normal house isn't possible for two people to be in the tub at the same time (and even less likely that they wash together, because that would mean that one of them gets to freeze outside while the other sits in the water).

As for the big tubs, it is not shocking if the whole family is there - it helps to spend some quality time together.


take a shower, two by two. it'll save water, soap and time...

I heard that american males pee on their girlfriends when they are not watching if they take shower together (actually, I heard several americans bragging to each other about it). Is that true? :clueless:


I have never heard about that. Usually nowadays, the guests pay everything as they have to pay a fixed amount of money (usually 10.000 to 30.000yen in Tokyo, depending on the formality of the party, but I heard it could be over 100.000yen in some regions). That replaces the gift and pays for all the wedding's expenses.

In Japan too? I know that this is done in China: the guests have to bring in a certain amount of money and that pays for the wedding expenses. Which is why marriages tend to have many guests.

I was amazed at how chinese weddings were so similar to the ones in my country, really... we also have that tradition :o

In fact, a good deal of the things that are pointed out as "Japanese" were the rule here, too... my grandmother had to quit her job when she got married (even though she made more money than my grandfather and then they had some financial hardships for decades).

Also, until the mid 1970s, women in my country were the legal property of their husbands - if my mother fled from home, my father could call the police to get her delivered back home, no questions asked... :mad:

Also, it was still common for people of my generation to sleep with their parents... it did it on and off until I was 7, some till later on. It CAN affect independence (one of my friends still slept with them at age 30).

Also, here people tend to live with parents until married (some - like me - are exceptions, but most adhere to this rule), with the result that many people live with daddy and mommy till their late 30s, 40s or even 50s (my 55-year-old aunt never married, thus she never left the parental home, for example. And I have at least two friends in their 40s that still live with their parents).

I must say that the differences between 'West' and Japan seem to me to be less than what they are... or is my country that different? From the US, maybe. But not from all of Europe, surely!

Regards,
Keoland

[ziad]

Quite interesting. :)

[Silverpoint]

Usually nowadays, the guests pay everything as they have to pay a fixed amount of money (usually 10.000 to 30.000yen in Tokyo, depending on the formality of the party, but I heard it could be over 100.000yen in some regions). That replaces the gift and pays for all the wedding's expenses.

Since I'm getting married soon, perhaps I can give a little more insight into this process. I was in two minds about revealing the exact cost of my wedding party, but since this is basically anonymous (no one knows me other than as Silverpoint) I think I can safely fill you in on the details. I'll give (approximate) dollar figures as well for those who aren't familiar with Japanese yen.

My wedding will cost about 2,000,000 yen (about $20,000). This is reasonably high for Hokkaido where I live. Down south, especially in Tokyo, costs can be a lot higher.

Of this, each guest who attends the wedding will pay 12,000 yen ($60) and we will have about 75 guests. So in total the guests will pay about 900,000 yen ($9,000). Each guest absolutely has to pay. If you and your partner are both guests at our wedding you have to pay for both people. It's also worth pointing out that any singletons who come to our wedding who get married in the future will be pretty much obliged to invite us to their wedding, so over the coming years we will end up paying back a large amount of the money we receive.

This figure is pretty standard for Hokkaido. In Tokyo the guest fee is more likely to be 30,000 yen ($150) which is exactly what I paid to attend a friend's wedding last year. Although Maciamo mentioned that he's heard of wedding fees costing 100,000+ yen, I'd suggest this would be extremely unusual. Even if the couple getting married are wealthy, there are always going to be guests for whom 100,000 yen is a serious amount of money and considerably more than they could afford.

As you can see the money from our guests is considerably short of paying for the entire wedding (about 1.1 million yen short in fact!). The rest of the money is provided by myself and my fiancee, and both sets of parents. In recognition of the high cost of my entire family coming out to Japan for the wedding, my fiancee's father has insisted that his contribution should be higher. If both sets of parents were Japanese, I don't know for sure what would happen.

Tradition dictates that we have to provide a gift to every guest that attends (nothing major - just a token offering to thank them for coming). Each person will get exactly the same gift. Hotels keep a catalogue of gifts which the couple can choose from. I believe that our gift to each person will cost 1,650 yen which doesn't sound like a lot, but multiply it by 75 and you get 123,750 yen (or over $1,200 worth of booty which we have to give back). This money is provided by us.

All the money from the guests goes immediately to the hotel. Rather than financing the entire wedding, the guests pay only for their meal which is a fairly lavish affair (I believe it's 7 courses, although I'd need to check). The price of the meal is set by the hotel and is usually the same in pretty much every hotel you visit. Guests usually know the 'local' rate and so it would be impossible for us to ask for more.



One thing that is interesting about Japanese weddings is who gets to attend. Certainly in England (and I daresay in many other 'western' countries) people generally get invited as couples. For example if I invited a co-worker, they would normally get to bring their wife/partner along. However in Japan, only people who are personally known to the people getting married are generally invited. So if if neither myself or my fiancee knows the co-workers wife or husband, they simply don't get invited. This works quite well for two reasons. 1) Everyone who attends knows the couple getting married. There are no people who feel a bit out of place because they've just been invited as a token gesture. 2) It avoids partners of guests having to pay to go to a wedding where they don't really know anyone.

If anyone has any burning questions, I'd be happy to try and answer them.

[cicatriz esp]

Not a question, but the concept of a guest being obliged to pay to attend a wedding completely boggles my mind. I'd never attend another wedding if that were a universal custom.

[kirei_na_me]

Not a question, but the concept of a guest being obliged to pay to attend a wedding completely boggles my mind. I'd never attend another wedding if that were a universal custom.

You and me both.

Oh well, it's just the difference in culture...

[Mars Man]

Silverpoint, you really paid through the nose for that one !! I truly wish you a great and most successful married life !! Remember to work hard to keep the ole 'love cocktail' alive over the years, and that it takes two to tango, two hands to clap, and that two heads are better than one.

My wedding was (well, second wedding, unfortunately) done in the kaihi style. All the guests were given a quote of the cost per person (of course ending in less than the estimated total on purpose) with the neighbors getting a little discount since their going is slightly 'giri' (obligation is a lose translation). Some gave more. We had the food served 'viking' style (buffet). To the best of my memory, it was at a total cost of some 620,000 yen. I don't like expensive, flamboyant weddings. I've seen some couples recently go quite simple--signing the papers and later having a simple party style reception. Love is more important than the show, would be my vote !!

[Silverpoint]

Not a question, but the concept of a guest being obliged to pay to attend a wedding completely boggles my mind. I'd never attend another wedding if that were a universal custom.

Presumably in America it would be considered pretty rude if you didn't buy a wedding gift though? It's just the same thing expressed in a different way. It's not "paying" to attend. It's a system by which married couples are able to offset some of the costs of a very expensive day by everyone contributing a little. Since every couple that gets married gets the same deal, it allows almost anyone to have a reasonably decent wedding without worrying about completely bankrupting yourself.

Personally I think it's a very practical system. I'd much rather have my guests help pay for our day than get given half a dozen toaster ovens and bunch of kitchenware that I have no room to store.

[Keoland]

As you can see the money from our guests is considerably short of paying for the entire wedding (about 1.1 million yen short in fact!). The rest of the money is provided by myself and my fiancee, and both sets of parents. In recognition of the high cost of my entire family coming out to Japan for the wedding, my fiancee's father has insisted that his contribution should be higher. If both sets of parents were Japanese, I don't know for sure what would happen.

:shock: Whaa...?

Over here, the cheapest of the cheapest weddings (a traditional one, unless you just show up at the civil registry, which isn't a proper wedding at all) is 10,000 euro [1,367,000 yen].

But that's the lowest! An average wedding - like my cousin's - went up to 20,000 euro (2,734,000 yen) and they go up to 50,000 euro (6,835,000 yen).

To compensate, the absolute minimum fee a guest has to give is 150 euro (20,500 yen), which is what I give, though it can go up to as high as 500 euro (68,400 yen). So guests effectively pay for the party, as long as you manage to invite enough of them (100-200 is recommended).

As a comparison of the cost of living, the *average* monthly wage here is 600 euro (82,000 yen).

So I reckon marrying in Japan is actually quite cheap... :souka:

Regards,
Keoland

[TuskCracker]

Japanese relation to sex

There is a kind a tacit understanding between spouse that after 10 years of marriage (loveless anyway) and a few children, the man is free to satisfy his libido somewhere else. That is why the sex industry is so prosperous in Japan.

Male literature in combini is 90% porn and everyone reads it openly (and shamelessly) anywhere. Even serios newspapers have their pink pages. This is just beyound belief for Westerners first visiting Japan.

In the age of AIDS, isn't this seen as not good. And then the cost of this, hostess bars, and such.
.
.

[budd]

it's just different
smoking and driving fast cars ain't good neither, but people do it

[Silverpoint]

In the age of AIDS, isn't this seen as not good. And then the cost of this, hostess bars, and such.


Actually it's total crap. The first poster is living in some kind of fantasy world.

[cicatriz esp]

Ah, so wedding presents are not required to be given, then. Thanks for clearing that up, it makes more sense now.

And actually, in the west there is the concept of "registries" so the couple doesn't get a whole bunch of useless stuff they then have to sell on ebay.

[Silverpoint]

So I reckon marrying in Japan is actually quite cheap... :souka:


Yes it is. It was one of the factors in our decision to get married in Japan. An equivalent wedding in London where I'm from would cost probably 3 or 4 times as much.

[Minty]

Another great topic Maciamo!!!:cool:

Reason for marriage
Japan : Children => with or without love is not very important. Lots of marriage are still arranged ("miai") and some Japanese think that it's better than love marriage because loveless arranged marriage rarely end up in divorce as the purpose is to have and raise children, and for the woman often to quit working and care about the household. Japanese men often look down on women at work, but are usually ready to ask them to stay at home and pay for their expenses, even if their salary is tight. As the father of a child born outside marriage is not legally recognised, the marriage rate of parents is close to 100%.
This is quite similar to Chinese.

Japanese family relationships
Even in love marriages, once a woman has a baby, her husband regards her as a mother, not a woman anymore, which means their sexual life comes to an end. The new mother is said to lose completely interest in her husband anyway (this may not be true in international couples, from what I've heard).
In most families, children sleep with both parents or just the mother. The the latter case, the father has his own room. I've been told that this way he wouldn't wake his wife and children up when he comes back late from work.
Sleeping with the child(ren) in the middle of the parents is so common in Japan that Japanese and a special name for it, a comparison it to the kanji 川 (kawa = river). Children might sleep with their parents till age 3, 5, 8, 12 or even 16, depending on the family, number of children and space in the house.
Well Chinese men regard his wife as a mother after their child is born but the difference is he also still sees her as his women. Some Chinese children sleep with their mothers too but not as old as 16.

Western reaction to children sleeping with parents
Westerners find for the least surprising that children sleep everyday with their parents (especially till age 12 or later !). They should not forget that on top of this it is normal in Japan for a father to have a bath with his children, even 20 year-old girls ! I guess that if the average Japanese man loses interest in his wife once she becomes a mother, there is no problem with children either.

That's culture shock to me!

I've heard a lot that Westerners would be afraid of crushing their new-born baby by sleeping in the same bed, but I was told that it never happened (of all mamals, only male sealions and pandas sometime crush their babies to death when sleeping with them, but never humans would it seem). The good point of the mother sleeping with the baby is that the baby doesn't cry because it feels secure near its mother and has a unexhaustable warm-milk bottle at its disposal. I've read that it was better for babies to be breastfed than drink other milk. That system definitely has its advantages.

Actually my husband's mother slept with her new born children and grandchildren down stairs because they were so noisy, and annoyed the men of the house. Yes, she is European.

Another concern is that the parents lose their privacy and can't have sex anymore - unless doing it in front of the child, which is a kind of taboo in the Judeo-Christian mindset. As Japanese parents stop having sex regularily after their children are born, that isn't a problem.
For international couples who do continue, I was told little babies can sleep very well even with the parents doing whatever they please right beside them. But they should have their own room from age 3 or 4 then.
Finally, lots of Westerners think it might cause psychological problems to the children to sleep with their parents. But Japanese do it and seem to be alright with it. The only drawback I can think of is the independence factor. Japanese are very group-minded and usually have difficulty thinking by themselves. It may be related.
That's why Japanese people are very attached to their parents and are kiddie. The Taiwanese seems to be also like that, but not so sure about loosing interest in the sex thing though.

Why do Japanese women stop working when they get married or pregnant ?
1) It's in the culture like that. They usually want to. Most Westerners think they are forced to quit, but they often resigned from their own will (or from what society has inculcated them). Japanese men also prefer that their wife stay at home once married. Women almost always want to spend as much time as they can with their babies (remember J-girls like what is "kawaii" ? The connection is evident).
2) Nursery schools are few and very expensive in Japan (I've heard about 200.000 yen/month). It make more sense for the mother to stay at home than work and pay almost all her salary for the nursery. In most Western countries, nurseries and kindergartens are free, which allows lots of mothers to work.
3) Paternity leaves don't exist in Japan, and (paid) maternity leave are not encouraged.
I think it's the same in Chinese. (Not sure about the mainland)

Japanese relation to sex
There is a kind a tacit understanding between spouse that after 10 years of marriage (loveless anyway) and a few children, the man is free to satisfy his libido somewhere else. That is why the sex industry is so prosperous in Japan.
Male literature in combini is 90% porn and everyone reads it openly (and shamelessly) anywhere. Even serios newspapers have their pink pages. This is just beyound belief for Westerners first visiting Japan.
Japanese men who miss talking to young and cute girls (or not so young and not so cute, depending on the price and place) go to hostess bars or "snack" after work. Nothing much happens there except dirty talk. Those who want to go more carnal have the soaplands and massage parlours, but Asian men's testosterone level is reputedly lower than Caucasian or African men, so they are often satisfied with just talking, watching - and groping...

Yes I supposed so, when I was dating my husband (boyfriend at the time) my Asian counterparts asked me whether "Western men are very sexual?" Also for Chinese it is possible to be boyfriend/girlfriend without sexual relationship but my husband said over here if people say they are boy/girl friend that means they have sexual relationship.

There is also the infamous "enjo kosai" or teenage prostitution. I'd like to say that for lots of Japanese (or East Asian) women, this isn't even considered as prostitution. Many find it normal to have sex with a man that pays them whatever they want. Remember that marriage is not much more than a man giving almosy all his salary to a woman to make children and take care of them. It suely sounds utterly shocking to lots of you, but after talking to (female) Japanese and other Asian friends I know quite well, they don't even see it as abnormal. It's in the mores, that's all. That doesn't mean Japanese women cheat more, but lots of them certainly consider money as more important than love or sex (which I find very saddening).

I have seen Japanese drama that reflects this. This is why Japanese girls have sexual experiences much earlier than Chinese girls. I wonder when you say Asian friends where in Asia are they from. Yes a lot of Asians are materialistic.

Behind this, I've realised that cuteness (the kawaii factor) iss very powerful in Japanese women's mentality. They like babies, cute anime characters and cute clothes more than anything else, it seems. Men have an obsessive care about their job and status. My impression is that this stereotype works as well for Korea and China, if not also South-East Asia.
Divorce and charge of the children

Yes most Chinese women like cute babies too; this is one of the reasons why many Chinese have many children.

In 95% of cases in Japan, the woman gets the exclusive charge of the children. It only seems natural as the father often don't really care about them. He comes back late from work and rarely take part in their education. After a divorce, it's not normal for the father to just forget about his offsprings. He doesn't care very much. That's the mother's role to care for them.

That's how my family works too. Why you think I often say that as a Sino Malaysian instead of having Sino Malaysian accent when I speak Mandarin I have Taiwanese accent instead.

That might sound crude again to some Westerners, as in the West parents sometimes fight bitterly over the charge of their children, and in peaceful cases, it's usual to find arrangement such as the children stay one week with the mother, next week with the father, or, weekdays at the mother's and weekends at the father's. Anyway, lots of father would feel terrible not to see their children regularily. (see the thread about children abduction (http://forum.japanreference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=323) on this regard).

Hmmm, I think it depends on the family. I do know Western families where the males don't like children it's the females who want them.

[Nana007]

Western reaction to children sleeping with parents
Westerners find for the least surprising that children sleep everyday with their parents (especially till age 12 or later !).

By western do you mean Caucasian? African American children tend to sleep in the bed with their parents. Although with married/dating couples the child tends to stop sleeping in the bed around 3/4. But children with a single mother tend to sleep in the bed for a bit longer. I myself had my own bedroom since I was 5. But for the most part I slept in the bed with my mom until I was 12. It really wasn't until I became a teenager and wanted to be independent that I really started to sleep in my own room, and even then when I was sick or maybe scared I would climb in her bed. The same thing with my little cousin she slept with her mom until she was 13. I notice the same trend amoung some hispanic groups.

Also as far as bathing goes, Its not okay with the male parent, but until about 5 its okay for a child to take a bath with the mother.

[bossel]

I think it's the same in Chinese. (Not sure about the mainland)

The mainland is different. Don't know about the countryside, but in the cities there is easy access to nursery schools & such (though it's not necessarily cheap). Many women work again after they had their child.


Also as far as bathing goes, Its not okay with the male parent, but until about 5 its okay for a child to take a bath with the mother.
Why not with the father?

[nurizeko]

For the reference of more recent viewers to this thread, do remember japan is a different country with different values, especially to love and relationships not tied to a christian pounded in sense that sex is somehow sinful and dirty.
Also Maciamo is now well known by his own admittance to have not liked living in Japan, he has proclaimed to have lived in many different countries.
Im not sure which but by his dislike of Japan i would assume their mostly if not entirely western/european countries.
Finally Japan is just one of those love-hate things like Marmite, you either love it or you hate it.

Also as far as bathing goes, Its not okay with the male parent, but until about 5 its okay for a child to take a bath with the mother.

For reference again, this is because western society of late has effectively cast all men as sexual predators who given half a chance would prey on the innocence and purity of virgins, and children or anything else they can stick their dick into.

[bossel]

Im not sure which but by his dislike of Japan i would assume their mostly if not entirely western/european countries.
I wouldn't call it a general dislike of Japan. If that were so, he wouldn't have tried to assimilate as he did.

Finally Japan is just one of those love-hate things like Marmite, you either love it or you hate it.
There is always something in between. I, for example.

For reference again, this is because western society of late has effectively cast all men as sexual predators who given half a chance would prey on the innocence and purity of virgins, and children or anything else they can stick their dick into.
Luckily it's not as bad yet in Germany. The US seems a horrible place in that regard. What's it like in Britain, nowadays? I know that there was this hysteria some years ago, but I thought that has died down.

[nurizeko]

The main issue in britain is pedophilia, if your remotely suspected of being a pedophile you can bet your neighbourhood will rise up and protest outside your house, effectively pedophiles in britain are the modern witch, it's less about you being genuinly guilty, just the mere taint of an accusation is treated as fact, and your existance immediately relegated to the catagory of sub-human.

Rape and sexual harrassment social attitudes seem about normal for europe, in britain, britain isnt as bad as America in those regards.

But yeah, never accuse a friend even joknigly of being a pedophile here.

You know that thing where sometimes young kids show each other their nether regions?, its a rare and silly/embarrassing event for the parents but otherwise i'de considor it a harmless exploration of themselves (since they have no idea of sexuality at that age)...we've had people go ape-sh** over it as if somehow a carnal sin against human decency has been committed.

[Ma Cherie]

While on the topic, there's a book entitled "Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Children from Sex"

This book was published in the US and it did cause a great deal of controversy. But this book raises the issue that children can have or better yet, teenagers sexual desires. The issue about protecting children from things like nudity, but the raises the question as to what society is really protecting children from.

[osias]

I found this topic pretty stupid...Girls bathing with their own father at the age of 20???? I wouldn't say non-existent, but very unlikely..I think this is what Maciamo wants..Too much porno, or something..??

[nurizeko]

osias, maciamo again, by his own admittance, didnt like japan, i personally feel he made wildly generalising statements about it, took things out of context or exhagirated them.

maciamo's cool, and has many good posts otherwise.

[Maciamo]

osias, maciamo again, by his own admittance, didnt like japan, i personally feel he made wildly generalising statements about it, took things out of context or exhagirated them.

I think it belongs to me to decide whether I like Japan or not. In fact, I do like Japan. Japan is one of my favourite countries outside Western Europe. I love Japanese food, I like many things about traditional and modern Japanese culture.

What bothered me about Japan is the way Japanese do not differentiate much between foreigners from every country and have such strong stereotypes and prejudices against anything that is not Japanese (in very broad lines, I don't want to explain the details again). I also dislike Japanese politicians, and complained a lot about the relatively poor standard of living compared to what