Elementary schoolgirl made to kowtow in apology for forgetting notebook

[Tokis-Phoenix]

"KOSHIGAYA, Saitama -- A public elementary school teacher here has been punished for forcing a third grader to kowtow in apology for forgetting to pass on a notebook to a classmate.

The 53-year-old woman teacher from the Sengendai Municipal Elementary School also told the intended recipient of the notebook there was no need for her to forgive the little girl who neglected her task.

The teacher has apologized";

Full story;

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/national/news/20080318p2a00m0na005000c.html



Eh...I don't get whats so bad about the teacher making the little girl bow in apology for what she did wrong? All the teacher was doing was teaching the little girl the traditional Japanese way of apology for her mistake- its not like the teacher hit the girl over the head with a book or something.
What do you think about this?

[Derfel]

I don't mind apologizing, but I passionately want to torture and kill people who intentionally try to scar my pride.
The teacher is filth, thats not punishment, its humiliation.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I don't mind apologizing, but I passionately want to torture and kill people who intentionally try to scar my pride.
The teacher is filth, thats not punishment, its humiliation.


Well i don't think its really that humiliating to be asked to bow when bowing is a large part of Japan, culturally. Its no more humiliating than a teacher asking a student to stand outside in the hall or staying in after schools finished to do detention for acting badly etc.
The teacher wasn't making the kid bow to humiliate the kid, the teacher was asking the kid to do it as a respectful way of apology.

[Derfel]

Making someone kowtow for such banal crap is humiliation.
Abuse of authority. Smells like minority complex to me.
If the teacher was punished, it means that people consider kowtow-ing humiliating, otherwise this wouldn't have happened.

[Goldiegirl]

I think that notebook was important and it was an important task to carry out. I think the bowing and apologizing was ok, not the part where the teacher said she didn't need to be forgiven. That was where it went downhill to me anyway.

[Jericho Desu]

The girl just forgot to pass the book, not like she did it intentionally, must have been really humiliating for her, I think a deep bow would have been enough but not to kowtow.

[JimmySeal]

Well i don't think its really that humiliating to be asked to bow when bowing is a large part of Japan, culturally. Its no more humiliating than a teacher asking a student to stand outside in the hall or staying in after schools finished to do detention for acting badly etc.
The teacher wasn't making the kid bow to humiliate the kid, the teacher was asking the kid to do it as a respectful way of apology.

You keep using the word "bow," but the teacher made the girl kowtow, which is considerably different. Are you sure you know the difference?

Kowtowing is intended to be somewhat humiliating, especially in a country like Japan that has such associations.

[Dutch Baka]

Getting down on your knees to apologize really is humiliating. A 90degrees bow for 5 seconds would have been enough.

What's the Japanese name for this bow? I tought it was something like dogusa...

[Tokis-Phoenix]

You keep using the word "bow," but the teacher made the girl kowtow, which is considerably different. Are you sure you know the difference?

Kowtowing is intended to be somewhat humiliating, especially in a country like Japan that has such associations.


Hm i thought a kowtow was when someone gets down on their knee's to bow right down- however i thought the kowtow was supposed to be a serious form of apology rather than intended as an act of humiliation.

[nice gaijin]

The Japanese term is 土下座, meaning to prostrate oneself. Considering the minor infraction in question, even a simple apology would have sufficed. Demanding dogeza for something so trivial is absurd.

[Dutch Baka]

sorry I couldn't find a better video for the bow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG6oT5kYI0Y

[Half-n-Half]

Haha as soon as I heard, "The Japanese tradition!" I knew I had seen that video. Your face on your avatar mixed with that link made for a strange, unintended comic relief. :blush:

[Tokis-Phoenix]

sorry I couldn't find a better video for the bow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG6oT5kYI0Y


Lol, "ahem", yes...Indeed thats the kowtow- there were some details of it that i didn't know before. Anyhoo, i guess i have to agree that the girl didn't need to apologise with a kowtow for such a trivial matter. Although I guess she probably won't be making the same mistake anytime soon though :relief: .

[tokapi]

I have seen leading actress or actor performed 土下座 apology in several high-rating Japanese TV doramas.I have been wondering if it was just acting to remind own population of cultural aspect from the past or an old tradition still in practice today.

[Derfel]

Doesn't one knock the ground with his forehead a couple of times when performing kowtow?

[Iron Chef]

The teacher was out of line, no question imo. It's a public elementary school lol and a friggin' little girl, c'mon... In my 8+ years in Japan I have only ever twice had someone bow themselves towards me in a similar manner while apologizing profusely. In one instance, it was over a purchase I had made at a retailer and involved an inept clerk, an overcharge, and losing my personal credit card info all at the same time... I was actually embarassed for the clerk who felt he had to do it while his manager and other staff were present.

The other instance concerned the mother of a man who had broken into my automobile and stolen some goods of mine from within my car. His family had sought me out and hoped to make ammends with me by not only replacing the goods that had been stolen but also by aplogizing in such a manner. It made me more than a little uncomfortable actually... and I felt for the mother who was crying the whole time so I dropped the charges.

Using those two examples as my reference, this little "notebook incident" hardly calls for such an apology imo. For westerners it may be hard to understand but never understimate the power of an apology in a "shame culture".

[FrustratedDave]

I don't see what the problem is? I had my knuckles whacked with a bamboo cane in front of the whole school when I was in 4th grade for fighting. I would like to see what everyone else would suggest to do as punishment?

[Dutch Baka]

I would like to see what everyone else would suggest to do as punishment?

I do not understand what really happened, and also what this girl has done before this matter... maybe the girl was doing this very often, maybe it was the first time.

In the worst case, she should apologize to the class just by saying gomen nasai for causing trouble and a normal bow. But I think that an apologize toward the teacher would have been the best thing... including maybe a paper where she has to write: "I should not forget the notebook anymore" 100 times.

[Goldiegirl]

Is it that absurd? I heard competition to get into the best schools is fierce?

[FrustratedDave]

I do not understand what really happened, and also what this girl has done before this matter... maybe the girl was doing this very often, maybe it was the first time.

In the worst case, she should apologize to the class just by saying gomen nasai for causing trouble and a normal bow. But I think that an apologize toward the teacher would have been the best thing... including maybe a paper where she has to write: "I should not forget the notebook anymore" 100 times.
I don't know what she has done either , but any sort of punishment in front of a group of people is humiliating, but isn't that what punishment is all about? Not the humiliating part ,but to deter a child from repeating the same mistake. I think we are all getting soft, or should I say getting too politicaly correct for our own good? I know I didn't fight again after being subjected to that.

[nice gaijin]

Everything children need to know they can learn from a good beating, right?

[MadamePapillon]

Everything children need to know they can learn from a good beating, right?

:blush: I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic but it does have a ring of truth to it.

The punishment wasn't so bad, it wasn't all that long ago that the same teacher might have been well within their rights to take a ruler to her hand or make her sit on a 'punishment chair' in front of the class. I do think we are to lenient of children...a little bow and a 'sorry' wouldn't hurt anybody.

[FrustratedDave]

Everything children need to know they can learn from a good beating, right?
Never implied that, but she was made appologise in the most sincere way, I don't see the problem. She should be made appologise b/c she did something wrong. It is not as if she was beaten ,was she? Everyone acting as if she was.

[nice gaijin]

Well I was being relatively sarcastic; kids these days certainly could use some sense beat into them. But I believe that it's important for the punishment to be appropriately proportional to the offense. I further believe it's important for apologies to be appropriate for the offense, especially when you are trying to teach children when and how to make amends for their mistakes. In this case, these were all wildly off.

Also, psychological abuse can be just as (or more) damaging that physical attacks. Crushing their spirit doesn't leave a mark, but it certainly leaves a lasting impression.

[FrustratedDave]

Well I was being relatively sarcastic;
Oh... :p

You do have a point about psychological abuse, but I am not so sure that something so bad was done here. I just think it was blown out of proportion by the story hunting media.

I had a friend who worked at a pool as a coach and one of the staff the night before put too much chlorine in the pool and the next day the kids training recieved mild respiratory problems and had to go to the doctor. The coach , who did not touch a barrel of chlorine and went about his usual everyday activity was then labbled as trying to poison the kids in the local paper. This became big news and it blew up into something huge. Then the truth came out after an investigation and he was totally cleared of any wrong doing as he had absolutely nothing to do with the incident.

The point I am making is that this is just another hyped up story and there probably is more to it than what is being said. As for the teacher appologising, the only reason why the teacher did that so it would not go any further. And the reprimand is just to show that the school did something about it.

[caster51]

dogeza 3
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=LqfnyDLIJ6c