When is different not different?

[gaijinalways]

These are portions pulled from a Caster link in another discussion on what Japanese sounds like. The Japanese 'scientist' comes to some conclusions that I think point more to the way Japanese view themselves then any sound conclusions based on 'evidence'.

The human brain is divided between the left and right spheres, with each having different functions. The right brain is called the music sphere, because it is where the sounds of music, machinery and noise is processed. The left brain is called the language sphere, because it processes sound logically and intellectually, namely being where the spoken word is comprehended. Up to this point Japanese are the same as Westerners.

Makes sense , so far.

His experiments revealed that while Westerners process insect sounds together with machinery and noise sounds in the music sphere, Japanese capture insect sounds in their language sphere, meaning that Japanese hear insect sounds as "insect voices."

Okay, though I don't see any figures in the article link caster supplied saying how many people were tested or under what conditions.

For the Cubans, if one were used to hearing the loud insect singing that filled the meeting hall as the ordinary background noise, they would not even be conscious of it. This is the same phenomenon as living for many years next to a railroad and growing so accustomed to the noise that we wouldn't even notice a train passing by. But since Japanese hear insect sounds in the same language sphere as they hear human voices, we can't let insect sounds just go by as part of the background noise. The fervent speech in Spanish and the loud insect singing were in direct competition in the left brain of Prof. Tsunoda.

This goes for almost any kind of noise, smell, etc. It sometimes applies to certain customs which may make no sense, when the reason for an action at one time may have disappeared.

This unique characteristic is only found among Japanese and Polynesian people, while Chinese and Koreans exhibit the same pattern as Westerners. What is even more interesting is the fact that Japanese whose mother tongue is a foreign language follow the Western pattern, while foreigners whose first language is Japanese follow the Japanese pattern. So this phenomenon is not a matter of "hardware," or the physical structure of the brain, but an issue of software, namely what language was learned first as a child.

Oops, now it is Japanese and Polynesian people. The second part refers to the language learned, but what about Polynesians, how are their languages similar to Japanese? I suspect it's not a language difference alone, maybe more a cultural value that has been taught and reinforced. I know many Japanese like to think they have a special affinity for nature, yet many live in cities where nature is often abundantly absent.

We can imagine the Japanese view of nature that says both humans and insects as part of all living creatures have "voices" and "feelings." The unique characteristic of Japanese people that hears insect sound and human voices in the same language sphere of the brain is very well reflected in our culture.

Forgot about those Polynesian cultures already.

The significant part of Prof. Tsunoda's discovery is that the Japanese pattern of hearing nature sounds in the language sphere is not a matter of ancestry, but rather dependent on whether Japanese was the first language learned. Redundant, same erroneous conclusion as above.

"In other words, Japanese have often been said to be somewhat emotional. In contrast to (Westerners who are) rational, that Japanese were said to be more emotional may well have been structural, functional or cultural, but the fact that there actually was a difference that applied in that instance has been made clear by Professor Tsunoda's research.

No, it's not clear, except that Japanese are more emotional and led by more emotional appeals. But so are most women for that matter, generally speaking.

Prof. Tsunoda's discovery also showed that besides insect sounds, Japanese also heard other animals' cries, plus the sound of waves, wind, rain and bubbling brooks in the language sphere.

And the rest of us don't? Give me a break, please. I often point out animal, insect, etc noises to my Japanese wife who sometimes doesn't notice anything, literally. Yet she'll often hear a bell that I won't. Maybe the difference is more based on where people are raised than what their first language is. In other words, if you are raised in an area where insects and animals are more common, you're more likely to hear them. If you're raised in the city, maybe not.

Any other opinions that may shed light on this 'unique' situation?

[lonesoullost3]

I remembered a British study on culture affecting eye-movement on image recognition. I can't find that study, but I did find an abstract (not full article...) on culture affecting face identification: http://www.journalofvision.org/7/9/573/ . Taking what I remember from the image-recognition article and comparing it to the abstract, both articles came to the same conclusion of a more holistic pattern emerging from subjects of East Asian descent. Without the full article, however, it is unknown if the East Asian subjects were born and raised in East Asia, or if they were raised elsewhere. From the wording of the abstract, it sounds like the former, but one can never be too sure.

Although art is not my specialty, I'm fairly sure you can find more examples of differences in spacial orientation in traditional landscape art from China and Japan versus those from European or American artists. Certainly, our cultures find these certain styles to be aesthetic due to the fact they appease the way we perceive surroundings. Taking this observation to the realm of film, we can see that in Roland Barthes' 1970 "Empire of Signs," a study on Japanese semiotics, he commented on the "fast reading speed" of the West and the "slower reading speed" of the Japanese, which is demonstrated in the long cuts by Mizoguchi and Ozu in their films of the 50s and 60s.

Therefore, I believe there is some precedent for the research, and it is not entirely out of line. However, it certainly needs to be better qualified. As I am currently beginning to study Japanese linguistics for my Master's thesis (though focusing on politeness and style-shifting), I do believe that language affects how you think to some extent -and of course, and perhaps confounding the situation - vice versa. In the case of style-shifting, however, how you perceive the situation affects your choice of speech, therefore saying thought directs language. But we can turn this around on itself and say that it is the very fact that you have a choice in linguistic style that you must astutely observe your relationship with your interlocutor - language before thought.

Another kink in our rope: Brown and Levinson's politeness theory (1978) postulates that safeguarding face, a loosely defined term that is similar to that of folk-definition, but is allowed flexibility depending on culture, defines how we speak politely. Thus, self-preservation of face - a thought process - directs our polite speech acts - and according to Brown & Levinson's theory, in the case of Japanese, directs EVERY speech act (a notion criticized by Matsumoto and Ide). Therefore, based on B&L's theory we would have to conclude that thought directs language in the case of Japanese, but at the same time, this does not necessarily apply to all cultures; therefore, it opens the possibility that Japanese could be a thought->language culture, while British English could be a language->thought culture. Nevertheless, thought vs. langauge becomes partly a question of causality, the chicken or the egg (which btw, one debate shows the egg as the winner (http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/05/26/chicken.egg/)), and as such, draws us into the world of philosophy along side science.

Hm... I'm tired... I hope this is coherent.

[nice gaijin]

the way these conclusions are worded puts this study on par with intelligent design. It seems that these "scientists" are looking for any means to empirically prove their nihonjinron.

[Goldiegirl]

We do use different parts of our brain depending on wether we use symbols to represent an entire word (like Chinese and Japanese) or use an alphabet to represent different sounds. They were showing dyslexia affects different parts of the brain based on the writing system.

I think the study gaijinalways is talking about is just to proove superiority of Japanese. It's sad but you do run up against that notion in Japan. I was told that it would be too hard for me to really learn Japanese because westerners can't understand Japanese concepts and truly grasp the language. That was said directly to my face to my husband's embarrassment.

[MadamePapillon]

Could you post the link to the original thread and the article this came from?

[Glenski]

Just read this to see a little more what Tsunoda thinks is true, and what other scientists say to debunk him. http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/yosha/nationalism/Tsunoda_1985_Japanese_brain.html

Or this. http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002041.html
Or this. http://home.sprintmail.com/~emrichards/shepherd.html (more an explanation why this was not initially refuted -- no peer review in Japan)

Pretty much what you'd expect from something our friend Caster may have dredged up.

[gaijinalways]

We do use different parts of our brain depending on wether we use symbols to represent an entire word (like Chinese and Japanese) or use an alphabet to represent different sounds. They were showing dyslexia affects different parts of the brain based on the writing system.

Goldiegirl, I would agree with that, and certainly the way we hear would be influenced by cultural and environmental aspects, but not quite in the way Tsunoda thinks.

Could you post the link to the original thread and the article this came from?

Here you go:

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36668

[MadamePapillon]

Thanks Gaijinalways. Having read that article and the ones Glenski posted I'm kind of shocked. Every country likes to think they are special or unique but that's taking it a bit far.
The effort some people will go through to prove their cultural 'superiority' is disturbing but to claim outright that westerners aren't able to truly grasp or appreciate the beauty and sounds of nature the way the magical Japanese can is cultural propaganda at it's best (or worst, whichever).

I'm not sure whether to be more shocked at that or the fact that the Japanese Government actually funds research programs devoted solely to studying this Japanese 'uniqueness'.

That bit about westerners hearing sounds like rain or crickets chirping simply as 'noise' while the Japanese hear it as music or language made me laugh --- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n95JMQwJi1E --- obviously Tsunoda has never seen Bambi. :blush:

This, however, disturbed me to no end....

The nihonjinron phenomenon shows no signs of abating, but rather is growing at an alarming rate. A recent spate of nihonjinron publications purports to lay Japan's negative image in the world financial community at the hands of the Jews, a chilling echo of the not too distant past.

[caster51]

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez7bPjSJGc8

OK, I love living in Japan and all, but man, the summer pisses me off! These f-ing bugs are so damned LOUD I can't stand it. This cicada in Tokyo sounds like a friggin' cat dying. I call him "Cat Dying Cicada."

LOL

http://www.herroflomjapan.com/2005/05/01/the-frogcast/

[caster51]

right brain...is called music brain(emotion,feelinf, figure, space, picture,Those acknowledgment is ruled. ) it say it is like Analog processing..

left brain...language brain(Language, investigation, analysis, calculation, and intellectual work) ...degital processing..

all human is same about above.


at first, I said right brain is called music brain.
however,I did not touch about music and sound
It is inapposite to call a Japanese right brain 'Music brain'.
There is no problem in calling a right brain of the performance music, the machine sound, and the noise of the Western musical instruments certainly for the Japanese a music brain.

however
It is not accurate to call a right brain a music brain to process a social sound and Japanese music musical instrument sound man & animal's cry etc. by a left brain.

There is a peculiar characteristic in Japanese.

There are a lot onomatopoeic.
The word is applied to as much as one vowel character.
(あ＝亜,阿，吾　い＝意，居......）
The word consists of the consonant and the vowel....etc

for example.
the japanese say cicada cries 'miiiiin miiin" " tukutuku bo-"
A social sound is a thing of the sound in person's laughter, cry, stertor, humming, and animal's cry and small birds' cry, booming of the sea, and brooklets etc.

The Japanese is processing them by a left brain that doesn't process by right brain but is the language brain.
The Japanese hears a vowel and a social sound, etc. as a word.

The Japanese is processing Japanese music as a word by the language brain (left brain).
It is quite different from the foreigner who is processing the same Japanese music as music by the music brain (right brain).

The Japanese writes "Chin ton shan", "Tsu ten shan", etc. and the character because it processes Japanese music as a word.

Polynesian.....
The vowel is identified with a left brain.
as for other, they hear vowel by right brain
The language of the main constituent of the vowel is Japanese and a Polynesian language in voice recognition

[Glenski]

caster,
"With a moo moo here, and a moo moo there..."
Onomatopoeia from another country. Japan is not unique in that respect, either.

[caster51]

With a moo moo here, and a moo moo there..."

:p

how about some insects,,,etc ?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onomatopoeia

[nice gaijin]

Japanese does have a lot of onomatopoeia, but that hardly makes it unique. This is junk science.

[MadamePapillon]

Japanese does have a lot of onomatopoeia, but that hardly makes it unique. This is junk science.


Ah, but you forget, the magical Japanese brain hears these sounds as a language. The croaking of the frog and the chirping of the cricket speaks to the magical Japanese while all we non-magical people hear is an annoying noise that we cannot truly appreciate or understand the way the magical Japanese do.


and the noise of the Western musical instruments certainly for the Japanese a music brain.

however
It is not accurate to call a right brain a music brain to process a social sound and Japanese music musical instrument sound man & animal's cry etc. by a left brain.

Likewise, the Japanese apparently process the sound of their own instruments as language but not the musical instruments of any other nation.
Caster, you realize even your phrasing is insulting and exactly that 'cultural superiority' mindset that we've been talking about. You call the sounds of western instruments 'noise' but the sounds of Japanese instruments is 'music'.

[Glenski]

"Junk science" sums it up, all right. What's next? Japanese physiology is different (hence their supposed shorter intestines that don't allow them to process western foods)? Japanese geography is unique (hence their snow is so different foreigners' skis don't work on them)? Have heard those before, too.

[Mars Man]

Well...I could punch myself in the smacker for not being as up to schedule with my posting and presentation on that We Are the Neurons. . . (I'm just too busy these days) but later on in later May, I'll be back on top of that again.

Just shooting from the hip here; it's so funny. There is an element of truth (that means a degree of) in the general concept which caster51 seems to be getting at...and maybe what that paper had been using, but had left out of mention.

While I would argue that it would be nothing to boast about, per se...especially as a tool to leverage any said cultural superiority...I would also argue that the native speaker of Japanese, on a high norm bell curve range (thus not all) do hear words to many sounds. The reason for that is called mapping. Thus, in short, it would quite nearly completely disappear (the mapping) if onomatopoeic words were not introduced to or overly emphasized to infants on up, for the entire population.

All this shows, as has been pointed out, is that there is a difference in the historical development of the specific linguistic and cultural unfolding and no other difference in brain function at all (byond the mapping); nothing more, nothing less.

[Chidoriashi]

ahh caster, at it again. Well I must say this forum would not be as lively without you.

Obviously the real reason behind any of this is simply that of differences in language development. But....

Well, here is a taste of your own reasoning..
You see in English, onomatopoeia is not as developed because it is nothing more than baby talk... so I one would conclude that Japanese communicate like a bunch of babbling babies, who simply cannot grasp the Western way of direct and effective adult communication....

And I did not even need a bogus "scientific" study to come to that conclusion.

Offended? Well, that is the way you present yourself on this forum Caster.

[gaijinalways]

Chidoriashi brings up an interesting point, that of languages using certain sound related words. The use of onomatopoeia, and particularly repeating words to represent sounds, is very prevalent in Japanese. It's a linguistic trait that a particular word by itself often has a different meaning than the word repeated. As to other languages that copy this usage, looking at Wikipedia, they give me some from　several languages such as;

A dog barking:

In Catalan, bup bup: a dog barking,
in Estonian, auh auh: a dog barking,
in Finnish hau hau: a dog barking,
In Greek, gav gav (γαβ γαβ): dog barking,
In Korean, meong meong (멍멍): a dog barking,
In Romanian, ham ham, a dog barking,
In Russian, gaf gaf: a dog barking,
In Swedish, vov vov, voff voff: a dog barking.
In Japanese, wan wan (わんわん), a dog barking.

In Vietnamese, vi vu: the sound of a gentle breeze, and vù vù: the sound of a strong wind.

For example, the sound a dog makes (help·info) is bow-wow (or woof-woof) in English, wau-wau in German, uau-uau in Interlingua, ouaf-ouaf in French, gaf-gaf in Russian, hav-hav in Hebrew, wan-wan, bau-bau, or wan-wan in Japanese, au-au in Portuguese, guau-guau in Spanish, bau-bau in Italian, vov-vov in Danish, woef woef [as English woof] or waf waf in Dutch, wou wou in Cantonese, voff-voff in Icelandic, hau-hau in Finnish and Polish, haf-haf in Czech, hav-hav (pronounced like English how-how) in Slovak, guk guk in Indonesian, bub bub in Catalan, ghav-ghav in Modern Greek, wou wou in Teso, gâu gâu in Vietnamese, vaL vaL in Tamil, wang wang' in Mandarin, meong meong in Korean, and "hong hong" in Thai.

So, I hardly think it unusual or unique, and it would hardly point to differences in brain functioning beyond the normal effects different languages might have on brain usage.

[MadamePapillon]

so I one would conclude that Japanese communicate like a bunch of babbling babies, who simply cannot grasp the Western way of direct and effective adult communication....

From what I understand the Japanese appear to take great pride in the fact that they don't communicate directly. Not speaking Japanese I can't exactly say how different the communication is compared to English but I've heard that direct communication can be considered very rude and the Japanese language is very formal in a way English speakers let go of long ago.
So while the English method is very effective and leaves little room for misunderstanding the Japanese appear to think our direct, effective communication makes us less civilized.

[Glenski]

No real use of pronouns like in English.
Indirect speech patterns.
Mind reading (so some say, as they finish each others' sentences).
Skinship.

Yeah, and the powder on Niseko slopes won't work for American ski brands.

[gaijinalways]

From what I understand the Japanese appear to take great pride in the fact that they don't communicate directly. Not speaking Japanese I can't exactly say how different the communication is compared to English but I've heard that direct communication can be considered very rude and the Japanese language is very formal in a way English speakers let go of long ago.
So while the English method is very effective and leaves little room for misunderstanding the Japanese appear to think our direct, effective communication makes us less civilized.


You can certainly communicate more clearly in Japanese, but the custom is not to. There are different levels or registers of speech, and a lot of the formal Japanese doesn't help for quick communication. The concept of 'keeping face' or 'saving face' is common again in collectivist Asia, so it is not solely used in Japan. Yelling at someone in Japanese is probably the quickest way of embarrassing or angering someone in Japan.

Typical though is attempts to avoid open conflict, and bad news will often be offered through an intermediary so that the person responsible can avoid addressing the 'injured' party directly.

[caster51]

From what I understand the Japanese appear to take great pride in the fact that they don't communicate directly. Not speaking Japanese I can't exactly say how different the communication is compared to English but I've heard that direct communication can be considered very rude and the Japanese language is very formal in a way English speakers let go of long ago.
So while the English method is very effective and leaves little room for misunderstanding the Japanese appear to think our direct, effective communication makes us less civilized.


Yeah, it seems a relation between a man who cannot confess and woman:p

[Chidoriashi]

MadamePapillon> I completely agree with you. I was simply being sarcastic. Try to show caster that when you say things in a manner that sounds like a certain race or culture is "deficient, or inferior" because you believe your race or culture has a trait that they don't, you piss people off. The idea that English speakers or whoever cannot hear insect sounds, because the their language does not have many words for those sounds is pseudo-science nonsense. Pointing out the foolishness of people using "science" to promote nationalism and cultural superiority is what I was getting at.

[caster51]

Pointing out the foolishness of people using "science" to promote nationalism and cultural superiority is what I was getting at.

I think no one said such like that.

[Glenski]

caster,
then what exactly is it that you and Tsunoda are trying to say?

[caster51]

In that case, my thinking is that our direction should be to take advantage of that difference. Instead of worrying whether the difference makes us better or worse, we should put that difference to work for us…. From difference rises creativity. The roots of inferiority toward the West run deep among the Japanese people, but to see ourselves and our differences in that manner acts only to further deepen that inferiority complex.” .............................
It is our duty as Japanese toward the rest of the world to make a conscious effort to study the Japanese language brain that we have inherited in order to make better use of our natural creativity.
if this is a nationalism, it would be nice contrubution to the world:cool:
it does not make an enemy to other
let's creat new world with Japanese brain for peace:p

[gaijinalways]

But you haven't answered the question caster?! There really is no difference, just like the ridiculous studies purporting that Japanese intestines were longer than other nationalities, this kind of pop-science doesn't serve any real purpose.

As to natural creativity, everyone has this to some degree. If you read through any literature, the Japanese are not often credited with being very orignal, but rather good at taking proven processes and improving them.

Dispensing propganda seems to be a 'new' skill they are working on.

[Glenski]

Well, I guess I have to thank caster for replying, but I have absolutely no idea what he is talking about in regards to nationalism being a contribution to the world.

It's pseudo-science at its best. What is the purpose of trying to show there is a difference when there is absolutely no physiological difference at all, caster? No "if" answers, ok? Tsunoda just wants more money to conduct his biased and poorly based "studies". What's your motive for putting this topic out there?

[caster51]

http://www.c-s-p.org/Flyers/9781847182890-sample.pdf


Japanese brain

there is a difference action by language surely..

There is a difference of working of a left brain and a right brain, too.
I think that it should know it if it is a Japanese characteristic.
of course, there is an evil practice ,too

http://joumon-juku.com/mail_maga/2007_12_04-2.pdf

http://209.85.175.104/search?q=cache:DS6ZGUe-GBgJ:joumon-juku.com/mail_maga/2007_12_04-2.pdf+%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E8%AA%9E%E3%80%80%E5%8F%B 3%E8%84%B3%E3%80%80%E5%A4%96%E5%9B%BD%E8%AA%9E%E3% 80%80%E6%AF%8D%E9%9F%B3&hl=ja&ct=clnk&cd=4

why is Japanese not good at speaking english? LOL

as Basho said:

静かさや岩にしみいる蝉の声
ah, the quiet... penetrating the rock, the voice of the cicada

[Glenski]

Japanese brain
there is a difference action by language surely..

why is Japanese not good at speaking english?
It's not the brain, caster. It's the environment here. Japanese born abroad must still have the same genetic disposition in their synapses, yet they can speak English perfectly. Or do you disagree?

Do you also believe the myth about Japanese intestines and snow being different?

Anonymous: "Don't p!ss down my back and tell me it's raining."

Oh, and thanks for your first link. The authors of that first article completely support what we've been saying, not you. And, one of them is Japanese.

[Mike Cash]

why is Japanese not good at speaking english?a

The main reason Japanese are not good at speaking English? Other Japanese.

[lonesoullost3]

why is Japanese not good at speaking english? LOL

Because the language education system in Japan leaves a lot to be asking for.

Also, while English carries all the sounds in Japanese, Japanese has a limited phonology, which makes it harder to create the sounds in English. If you're really just talking about language learning differences, one theory suggests a concept similar to a series of "switches" in our brain. Depending what language we first learn, some switches get turned off when we don't use them, while the ones we do use stay on. The "switches that are "off" can be turned back on, but only through lots of disciplined practice and immersion in an environment that uses those "switches." So you could say that sounds like 'i' in 'bird' and 'r' and 'l' are turned off in a native Japanese speaker (but that has nothing to do with genetics - just first language). This is a part of Chomsky's universal grammar.

[MadamePapillon]

I had that 'language incompatibility' happen to me in reverse. This Japanese girl at my old school was trying to teach me to say her name properly (it was spelled Rie but pronounced Lee-eh) and while I could say it properly I had to really think about what I was saying otherwise I kept calling her ree-aye.

But all sound differences aside, the excuse that 'Japanese can't learn English because they speak Japanese' is complete BS. I can't say why some appear to be so adamantly against learning English...could this be another of those superiority issues revealing their inner insecurity of foreign cultures. Maybe. :souka:

[Glenski]

How can a Japanese name have a pronunciation with a letter that isn't even in their phonemic language set, MP?

[nice gaijin]

I had that 'language incompatibility' happen to me in reverse. This Japanese girl at my old school was trying to teach me to say her name properly (it was spelled Rie but pronounced Lee-eh) and while I could say it properly I had to really think about what I was saying otherwise I kept calling her ree-aye.The Japanese 'r' is an alveolar tap/flap. It takes place in the same place as the English 'r' and 'l' sounds, but it is equal to neither. It's common to replace the sound with one you are familiar with

[gaijinalways]

But it would be Rie, just as Reiko is used (not Leiko). I guess a Western prefence for the 'r' initial pronunciation.

[Chidoriashi]

Actually though many Japanese tell me the sound is actually closer to "L" than it is to "R"

[MadamePapillon]

I think it is closer to an L but it has an odd little R-like roll in there to...hard to explain...I think you actually have to put your tongue a little farther back in your mouth while pronouncing it that you do with an L which you say while pressing your tongue against your teeth. :relief:

[nice gaijin]

Actually though many Japanese tell me the sound is actually closer to "L" than it is to "R"
That is because they do not understand the phonology of either the Japanese R or the English L. Re-read my previous post and look at this chart (http://www.yorku.ca/earmstro/ipa/consonants.html). The Japanese 'r' is in the same column as l and the upside-down r (English L and R), meaning it takes place in the same part of the mouth, but the articulation is different. You can even click on the characters for example audio of each consonant; the sounds are a bit exaggerated but the difference should be very clear.

The main reason one would say the Japanese R is closer to the English L than the English R is because both the English L and Japanese R have contact between the tongue and the alveolar ridge at the beginning of the sound, whereas the English R is an approximant, meaning the tongue comes close but does not touch the roof of the mouth. However, the sounds are more complex than this, and the Japanese R and English L are still very distinct from each other.

[Chidoriashi]

I am fully aware that they are distinct sounds, I was simply stating that to Japanese people my accent, when I speak Japanese, sounds more natural to them when I lean towards an "L" sound when I say ら、り、る、れ、ろ。 I know they don't know the difference between the 2 sounds in English, I am just repeating what they have told me they feel when they hear English speakers speaking Japanese. Therefore Romaji writing, would probably be better written with "Ls" than "Rs" for purposes of English speakers being able to more naturally pronounce Japanese.

[nice gaijin]

If English speakers want to more naturally pronounce Japanese, they need to learn how to properly pronounce Japanese instead of trying to approximate native English sounds to Japanese ones. As I said, the sounds are more complicated than I explained, and substituting one foreign sound for another hardly does anything to make one's Japanese more "natural"

[Relic2279]

I must have a Japanese brain inside my American head.

When I hear the high pitch sound of a mosquito near my ear, it translates into words that sound like "squash me quick!"
And when I hear the sound of a bee buzzing near me, it translate to "get the hell away from me or I'll sting your lazy ***!"

Left brain for the win.
:P


~R

[Damicci]

If English speakers want to more naturally pronounce Japanese, they need to learn how to properly pronounce Japanese instead of trying to approximate native English sounds to Japanese ones. As I said, the sounds are more complicated than I explained, and substituting one foreign sound for another hardly does anything to make one's Japanese more "natural"

I do agree with this. But to get back to topic. Wouldn't it be fair to say for example a western child adopted by Japanese parents would grow up to have the same mind set of a Japanese child? Or is caster saying that these "Brain functions" are genetic to Japanese only. I would think this is do to environmental stimulus as mentioned before.:relief:

[gaijinalways]

Seems like it would be, just as an adopted Japanese baby raised by American parents in the US, always hearing English (assuming that is the language the parents spoke at home) would speak English as a native.

All this, despite his Japanese brain!:p

[caster51]

All this, despite his Japanese brain!

it means he does not have the japanese brain

[Damicci]

So In short you have to be raise din Japan. Has nothing to do With Ethnicity but Culture.

[Glenski]

As usual, caster is full of unsupported nonsense. There is no "Japanese brain". Damicci is correct in his/her assumptions about adopted children.

Don't agree? What about kids born to Japanese parents who move to another country? The kids stand a good chance of their environment (not any genetic predisposition or family life) producing a non-Japanified "brain". Vice versa, too, in the case of a Japanese spouse married to a foreign one and raising their kids in Japan. Life is a box of chocolates. Japanese brain, indeed!

Also, Damicci, being raised in Japan could still afford a child enough experience to not have this Japanified attitude that caster is leaning towards defining. Could name you many cases of kids who grow up in Japan with western attitudes. Depends on how many trips abroad they have, for one thing. Or on how the family values are imparted. Basically, it is not a "Japanese brain". Environment is a HUGE factor here, and that doesn't exclusively involve where one lives.

[Mars Man]

Caster51 said, it means he does not have the japanese brain.

This can only be most fully accurate if by 'Japanese' we mean 'culturally saturated Japanese language only acquisitioned.' (where acquisitioned is in opposition to learned)

[diceke]

Makes me wonder if anyone has read the quote in the OP?
The significant part of Prof. Tsunoda's discovery is that the Japanese pattern of hearing nature sounds in the language sphere is not a matter of ancestry, but rather dependent on whether Japanese was the first language learned.:souka:

[caster51]

Makes me wonder if anyone has read the quote in the OP?
:souka:

It was useless though I explained.

[gaijinalways]

The significant part of Prof. Tsunoda's discovery is that the Japanese pattern of hearing nature sounds in the language sphere is not a matter of ancestry, but rather dependent on whether Japanese was the first language learned.

Diceke, good point. But then any brain could learn this, as anyone could learn japanese as a first language. It would just be more likely to be a person with Japanese parents!

How about a Japanese-as-first-language brain?